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User Topic: The OW is not the problem!
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 8:45 PM, September 27th (Friday)

We hear so much about the OW here. "The other women made him do it", mentality seems rampant. Poor, weak WH's just could not stand up for us against the femm'e fatal.

HELLO?! Your husband was looking to have an affair, or else he wouldn't have been in one!

Is no one else sick of the scorn,that the OW gets, while the WH get's the "gift of reconciliation".

Ick! They both did the exact same thing to you. They are both the same. Oh. Except that your WH really knew you. knew how much you loved, and sacrificed,for your family...(not that he shared THAT with ow!

I just don't get it.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
openedupmyeyes
Member
Member # 27871
Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Amen! Truth!


Me:53 BS
Him:53 FWH Trying to make me a believer?
Years married:35
:03-01-10: The day I learned the truth
Kids:Daughters 4 all grown and married.
Reconciliation is hard.
Really freakin' hard.

Posts: 760 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: The Great State of Texas
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I just don't get it.
Right.

Although a lot of affairs have a lot in common, they are all not exactly the same. Whilst I hold my FWH fully and wholly responsible about what he did, the OW was predatory and continued to fish for at least 8 years after my FWH ended the affair.

Is no one else sick of the scorn,that the OW gets,
No, I am not sick of the scorn that the OW's and OM's get. I have been here for over almost 3 years and I get and understand the scorn that these BS's feel for the AP's. They deserve every ounce of it.
They are both the same.
No, they are not.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Grace Under Fire
Member
Member # 21533
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I never believed the OW made my husband have an affair. But I certainly was thankful I could come to SI and vent some pretty venomous words about her and have people understand my anger.

My husband got to listen to me vent for hours upon hours. That was part of the "gift" of reconciliation. The OW? Didn't have to hear it. So I came here instead. And am eternally grateful for the folks who listened and didn't judge me while I cycled through all the stages of recovering from infidelity.


Posts: 1216 | Registered: Nov 2008
TheGarden
Member
Member # 40788
Default  Posted: 8:59 PM, September 27th (Friday)

My WH's AP was a very close friend of mine. She knew her behavior would be a betrayal, that it would damage my marriage, and that it would hurt me. And she didn't even have the moral character to apologize to me after the A came to light.

If WH had never been involved at all, and her betrayal was something else of a similar magnitude that didn't involve an affair with my husband (let's say she stole a lot of money from me or deliberately sabotaged my career), I would still be really damn angry and upset with her, I would still feel utterly used and thrown aside by her, I would still be mourning the friendship and my trust, etc.

So yeah, sadly, the OW really does matter in my case.


Me: BW, 39, Him: WH, 43; married 9 years, together 13 years
DDay:July 2013; EA progressing to a PA
APs: ex-"friend" & her enabling polyamorous husband
Status: Dual-income-no-kids, 2 cats, taking it day-by-day, married till we're not

Posts: 54 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Florida
Broken1Again
Member
Member # 32211
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Sorry, no I'm not "sick" of the scorn the OW/OP get. I think for the most part most of them deserve it. If they knew he/she was married then WTH??? They get off almost scott free. The spouse that chooses to stay and R does not. They are still living the aftermath of the A years later. What is the OP living?

I'll never forget when I was pregnant with my 2nd, WS had an A with a person that I thought was a friend. I kicked him out. He immediately went to stay with her. I remember we only had one car at the time and he took it and would put a lock on the steering wheel so I couldn't come and get it. One day my 2 year old had a fever I showed up at her door because I needed the keys to the car. Enough was enough. I was pregnant and had a son who was sick. WS could F off and drive her car. She answered the door and looked at me with disgust like I was the OW.

I almost beat my WS with the Car lock that day right in front of her. I was so mad. After when we tried to R she got invited on a company trip by her ex (whom she left for my WS) found out we would be there too and had the nerve to call my house to "apologize". ONly so it wouldn't make the trip uncomfortable for her. Oh I gave her a piece of my mind.

So if you think that I am sick of the "scorn" OW/OM get here? ummm...NO! Hell NO! If they didn't know WS was married, well that's a different ballgame altogether. But most of them do and then they talk Smack about the BS as though they are better then us? And what about OW/OM who are the aggressors? Don't even get me started on that.

[This message edited by Broken1Again at 9:07 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


BS: 40
WS: 42
Two boys 13/11
Married 15 years
Dday: too Many to remember. 3 significant OW and many "less"'significant OW. Believe WS has bad boundaries and craves the attention.
In R.

Posts: 859 | Registered: May 2011
Gr8Lady
Member
Member # 36307
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I agree, no one held a gun to anyone's head and forced an affair. It takes two to tango

It was a choice. A bad choice, but a choice


BS: Me (63yo)
FWH: HIM (65yo) serial infidelities over past 35 years
OW: Many, most recent 1/2 his age
DD: Multiple unconfirmed until 2012 when I presented evidence, plus LTA with his friends wife lasting 10 years. TT over past year
So done,

Posts: 600 | Registered: Jul 2012
Lucky
Member
Member # 6864
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, September 27th (Friday)


HELLO?! Your husband was looking to have an affair, or else he wouldn't have been in one!

Uhmmm NO. He wasn't looking for an affair, and YES, he was preyed upon by an OW who wanted my life.

Scorn? Tough shit if they get it, just as Mr Lucky got it from OW' s BS
(He really didn't though, BS laid the blame squarely at OW's feet)


♥ WINE - the other fruit juice! ♥


Posts: 36162 | Registered: Apr 2005
hobbeskat
Member
Member # 38805
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, September 27th (Friday)

The OW was one of my best friends. She knew how much I love my WH, she was at my hen night and my wedding only 5 months previously. She was the one who had a crush on him for 2 years and didn't tell me. I reserve the right to blame her, too. He is guilty- more guilty. But she is too.

[This message edited by hobbeskat at 9:12 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


Posts: 306 | Registered: Mar 2013
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Grace, I(loved that show btw!),
I get it if OW was a friend, who knew you. Sista's just Don't Do That!

I am talking about the , "Oh she was 20yrs younger, thinner, better vocabulary, and he succumbed... after all
I did gain a pound after seven children and didn't meet his every sensual desire
and he was alone, drinking, with the "wrong" friends...

I can FORGIVE WH... (After I put him through hell for several yrs, as "proof that he does, in fact, love ONLY me). But the OW was just a HO. No redemption for that Bitch. You lured my poor defenseless husband to cheat on me! Why that's emotional rape! She should rot in prison!

Again. WHATEVER MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER

[This message edited by Safeguard at 9:16 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:14 PM, September 27th (Friday)

"The other women made him do it", mentality seems rampant
I don't agree with this at all. As I have said, I have been here for almost 3 years and this is not the rampant mentality here. In fact, if a member tries to put all the blame on the AP's , we gently remind the poster that isn't the truth. Sometimes not so gently. We explain both the WS and the AP's are both 100% responsible for their own choices.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:16 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Wow. Whats going on with you tonight Safeguard? You sound very upset.

It also sounds to me like you are reading a different board than SI.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
stillhurting3610
Member
Member # 32899
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Safeguard,

I understand part of what you are trying to say in regards to some that may try to or it may seem based on their words that they are placing all or most of the blame on the OW but I don't think it is because they leave the spouse blameless.

I think many of the posts below reflect why the scorn is so rampant here. As one poster stated they never got to vent to or share their feelings of blame on the OW. They never had their say for lack of a better term so here is where they vent and blame.

As many of the other posters also comment both here and other threads, the OW/OM in most cases knew the WS was married and many pursued them. Not to say the spouse was not to blame as well but when someone knowingly does something like this they do deserve the scorn and blame.

Some posters have identified the OW/OM as a friend or a person that they had a level of trust with, this is an equal betrayal.

While I by no means leave my WH blameless, I actually lay most of the blame on him for breaking my heart and trust. I blame him for putting me on the emotional roller coaster and the long painful journey back to some type of peace. I am still searching for that.

But I most certainly blame the OW in my case for many things, maybe not the breaking my trust or going against vows of marriage, but she has plenty to be blamed for. She knew my husband was married. She pursued him, she sent many messages of hate to me to show their affair when he was not leaving to be with her. She put all regard for another human being aside to pursue what she wanted.

She stalked me and infiltrated my life in many ways. To this day I have never engaged in any conversation with her. I have taken the high road and will not do some of the many things I would love to do and say. It would not matter.

I guess I said all of this to say that I feel you are mistaken in stating you comments in this thread. The beauty of this wonderful sight is we all can come here and share our pain our frustration and our vents. I don't believe we feel the OW/OM was some femme fatal and our spouse some weak soul who fell prey.

I think most would see it for what it is a spouse that is open to an opportunity and in most cases like a lion seeking out the weak one in the herd many OW/OM seek them out as easy prey.

I mean no offense when I say all this I just felt strongly about your post and had to comment.


BS - Me
WS - I don't think he considers himself WS. Denial its not just a river in Egypt.
Married - Almost 18 Yrs
Together - 23 years
DDay# 1 3/6/2010
DDay# 2 3/26/2010
Reconciling I think god I hope

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Metro Detroit Area
Gajit
Member
Member # 40665
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, September 27th (Friday)

My WH said "it just happened".
Yeah, like our 25 years together "just happened"!!!
It is a choice and BOTH are to blame!
They are POS scumbags that need to be kicked to the curb by real, honest, loving people!


Lord, with Your help I will focus on each small step of the climb, instead of the mountain that stands before me.

Posts: 224 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: USA
brknwmn
Member
Member # 40603
Default  Posted: 9:23 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Is no one else sick of the scorn,that the OW gets, while the WH get's the "gift of reconciliation".

No offense but this makes you sound like you are an OW/OM. Anyone who has been in the shoes of a BS has the right to feel sick at the thought of the OW/OM...regardless of if they know the BS or not, if they know about a serious relationship they should have enough self respect to back the fuck off

quoting hobbeskat


He is guilty- more guilty. But she is too

my FWH is definitely guilty, but she knew about me... and I called her & told her about herself. she felt no remorse so excuse me for disliking her....the only reason why my FWH is getting "the gift of reconciliation" is because we have history together. that OW is just a blip in time (one that rocked my world) had she apologized...i would've tried to forgive her...but she didn't feel bad and it seems like you don't either...but I'm just making an assumption that you are an OW/OM or a WS trying to defend their OW/OM


if i'm wrong please feel free to let me know.


Me: 26 BS Him: 29 WH
Together since Dec 2005
officially done 10-30-13

Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you.


Posts: 78 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: United States
Lucky
Member
Member # 6864
Default  Posted: 9:24 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Again. WHATEVER MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER

How insulting. And nice of you to spew your anger at a hurting BS in JFO a bit ago.


♥ WINE - the other fruit juice! ♥


Posts: 36162 | Registered: Apr 2005
OldCow18
Member
Member # 39670
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I blame WH completely for this. It is his fault absolutely. He is the one that broke his vows TO ME. I don't feel OW made him do a damn thing, he sought this out all on his own.

Unfortunately, he wasn't alone in his "crime". She absolutely deserves blame as well. She was an "accomplice". In my case she was a friend (with friends like that who needs enemies...). My issue is with WH, but that does not mean OW walks away scott free. Just my 2 cents.


Me, BW forty something, DD & DS,
Married to WH (49) 11 years, together 16
D-Day 6.8.13

Posts: 620 | Registered: Jun 2013
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Forgive me Sister, I am NOT "reading a different board than SI. LOL.

I "Get It". most people NEED to believe, The Devil made their partner screw them over.

I'm just saying. No Sir. That's not how it it is. Some people get that, and others need to believe in Alien forces. I get tired of the BS. That is all.
Carry on.

[This message edited by Safeguard at 9:28 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
stillhurting3610
Member
Member # 32899
Default  Posted: 9:28 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Lucky,

I could not have said that better myself.

I also caught the post in JFO and was quite taken aback and found this thread and had to comment.

My first thought was similar to what brknwmm stated but I saw the long profile an thought maybe not.

Either way I thought it was uncalled for and out of left field.


BS - Me
WS - I don't think he considers himself WS. Denial its not just a river in Egypt.
Married - Almost 18 Yrs
Together - 23 years
DDay# 1 3/6/2010
DDay# 2 3/26/2010
Reconciling I think god I hope

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Metro Detroit Area
Holly-Isis
Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 9:33 PM, September 27th (Friday)

You don't think that the BWs (and BHs too) look at the person sleeping next to them and know full well their spouse was, for a time at least, their enemy?

When you have affection for someone, it's easier to focus anger elsewhere. That doesn't mean you don't have any at all. It doesn't mean you don't hold them just as accountable. It just means there's a safer place to focus your anger while you work on the issues with your spouse and deal with that anger bit by bit rather than all at once.

Like Lucky, I know xOw1 wanted my life. She told me, I just didn't take her literally. None of that would've mattered if MrH had just said no or had boundaries strong enough that he wasn't ever alone with her.

All that said, once I knew the whole story all the pieces suddenly clicked into place and I saw how she methodically drove a wedge between us. Encouraging arguments, saying one thing to him, another to me...she was sneaky and had a goal.

I'm not sick of the OP getting bashed. I'm sick of people that tell BSs how they should feel and where their focus should be. It's one thing if a BS keeps accepting mistreatment from a WS but looks to the OP to stop the behavior. It's completely different when it's a BS trying to process it all, whether in R or D. We all go through stages in dealing with this and vilification of the OP is usually one of those stages.


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

❣I hope my issues don't discourage ur healing. I've buried a lot & my WH hasn't done his part in R❣


Posts: 10988 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Limbo
stillhurting3610
Member
Member # 32899
Default  Posted: 9:35 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Wow I am at a loss for words, so if I am reading this right if we blame the OW/OM we must "Need" to do this. We must blame some devil and alien life forces.

How presumptuous one must be to make such statements?

I think many have stated here quite reasonably with explanations that define how or why they place the blame and none of it was based on need, magic creatures or nefarious beings. And all have stated their inclinations of laying equal or more blame on the WS.

As was stated by another poster if a person was to steal money from you or perhaps some other act towards you that hurts you on some level would you also say it is wrong of us to blame them since it must be the fault of our purse for being open with our wallet sitting on top.


BS - Me
WS - I don't think he considers himself WS. Denial its not just a river in Egypt.
Married - Almost 18 Yrs
Together - 23 years
DDay# 1 3/6/2010
DDay# 2 3/26/2010
Reconciling I think god I hope

Posts: 107 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Metro Detroit Area
Lucky
Member
Member # 6864
Default  Posted: 9:40 PM, September 27th (Friday)


Nobody. Absolutely NOBODY has the right to tell a BS what they can and can't feel, blame whom they wish, or mock any of us in our feelings.


♥ WINE - the other fruit juice! ♥


Posts: 36162 | Registered: Apr 2005
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, September 27th (Friday)

"
The other women made him do it", mentality seems rampant.

There are many people who believe this. I am not one of them. He did it himself. He initiated it. His choice.

She was happy to collude with him to violate our marriage. She had nothing to lose. She was divorced and what turned out to be sex only soon turned into, "what if we were together..." (insert dreamy look in her eyes and...exit H).

So...in my case, the OW was not the cause of our many problems, nor was she going to be a solution (which is why I never got her version of the story...what for? This is between me and H).

Ick! They both did the exact same thing to you.

Actually - they didn't do anything to me per se. They were doing it all for themselves. They were selfish and got caught up in something artificial. I got hurt in the process. My H has owned his behavior. She has not. But that is her issue to deal with.

I am not willing to break our vows and end our M just bc my H broke them. Esp over something that is not real.

Finally, whether you mean to or not, the tone of your note is very condescending to people who are going through or have gone through hell.

but hey to use your words Safeguard...

WHATEVER MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER


[This message edited by LA44 at 9:54 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2109 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
mchercheur
Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 9:48 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Except that your WH really knew you. knew how much you loved, and sacrificed,for your family...(not that he shared THAT with ow!

This is true. In many cases,(like mine), the WH portrays the BW in a bad light to OW to give her a green light that he is wide open to the possibility of cheating.


All of us BWs know that our WHs were not raped by OW.
OW did not hold a gun to their heads & said "OK, unzipper those pants & take out your magic wand, or I will pull the trigger."

However, when the OW knows he is married & goes for it anyway, or even worse, pursues & makes the first move, without caring about another woman or the kids involved, in my opinion she is despicable.
To me, WH & OW are equally to blame, together they conspired to violate me & destroy my family.

[This message edited by mchercheur at 9:58 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1337 | Registered: Dec 2012
thenon-goddess
Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Actually, IMO, they are BOTH the problem. That was have people in this world that behave like that is a problem. Their lack of morals doesn't just affect their relationships with their partners, it affects friendships and the children that they raise. These people (sometimes) raise children that think that lying and scamming are okay. Children that are affected by their narcissistic parent. Friends that are also encouraged to play around by their friend who has no morals. The OW(P) may be less at fault then our own partner who took vows to us, but make no mistake, they ARE the problem. Those types of people are what makes our world such a sad place to live in sometimes.


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Feb 2011
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, September 27th (Friday)

@Old Cow: Thank you. That's just what I feel. Yes, of course the OP shares blame. But just as you said, She is not your problem...Your WH is. I would not expect you to feel anything charitable towards OW, but the blame is lopsided here at SI. (regardless of what some say).

Not all situations are the same, I realize, and some have more reason than others to hate the OW. ( In my case, my niece, whom I practically raised!)

I can't believe people are thinking I'm an AP, because I am putting blame where it belongs! My God, our WH's lied to US, you think they were truthful with AP?

Yet somehow Ow got elevated to a status that rendered WH's incapable of resistance.

Wow. Holly Isis! You Super Hero. Where have you been?

When you have affection for someone, it's easier to focus anger elsewhere

Yes.

I'm not sick of the OP getting bashed. I'm sick of people that tell BSs how they should feel and where their focus should be. It's one thing if a BS keeps accepting mistreatment from a WS but looks to the OP to stop the behavior. It's completely different when it's a BS trying to process it all, whether in R or D. We all go through stages in dealing with this and vilification of the OP is usually one of those stages.

Point well taken! Thank you for this!! Yes " A Stage', makes perfect sense to me now. I was thinking I must be missing something, things just were not adding up.

@ Lucky: I did not intentionally, Insult anyone. This is interesting though:

Scorn? Tough shit if they get it, just as Mr Lucky got it from OW' s BS
(He really didn't though, BS laid the blame squarely at OW's feet)

Kinda makes ya go:Hmmmm...

[This message edited by Safeguard at 10:09 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, September 27th (Friday)

First of all -- applauding LA:

"I am not willing to break our vows and end our M just bc my H broke them. Esp over something that is not real."

I may have that put on a shirt I love it so much.

I honestly haven't noticed excessive OW blaming here. . .and my H has been so keen on accepting 50% responsibility, that he neglected to notice the ways that he actually may have been sucked in by our "friend." (Who "confessed" that she had had a crush on him for years to help kick off the affair. So, one can go too far the other way too, in hesitating to attribute malicious intent.) Did he manipulate her to get what he wanted as well? I am sure he did, and I hope her husband bashes the hell out of him (to her) for it.

I will never know her 'reality,' and God knows my husband is 100% to blame for his behavior. I will never know her heart, and I don't care, becasue she is not worth it anyway. But, do I think a woman who listened to me talk about our relationship (positively) for years, heard our struggles with his job and travel, and some other personal issues he was having, and then used those things to gain access to him emotionally at a low spot in our marriage, had some predatory shit going on? Yes, I do. Was she aware of it? Who knows. But, one thing is for certain, my H is going to be a much smarter man about himself, and boundaries, and what women are capable of, and what he is capable of, and I will never let my marriage get in the spot it was in again.

Editing for all kinds of clarity.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:21 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1746 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
jo2love
Moderator
Member # 31528
Red  Posted: 10:37 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Safeguard -

Please remember, expressing your opinion is fine, but you cannot tell others how to feel and in the process insult them.


Posts: 33889 | Registered: Mar 2011
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 10:52 PM, September 27th (Friday)

@Jo2love: Heard and understood.
I'll be more careful how I express myself going forward. Thank you. I did not mean to insult anyone.

@Bionicgal: Your whole post just rocked! BRAVO!!

what he wanted as well? I am sure he did, and I hope her husband bashes the hell out of him (to her) for it.

I will never know her 'reality,' and God knows my husband is 100% to blame for his behavior. I will never know her heart, and I don't care, becasue she is not worth it anyway. But, do I think a woman who listened to me talk about our relationship (positively) for years, heard our struggles with his job and travel, and some other personal issues he was having, and then used those things to gain access to him emotionally at a low spot in our marriage, had some predatory shit going on? Yes, I do. Was she aware of it? Who knows. But, one thing is for certain, my H is going to be a much smarter man about himself, and boundaries, and what women are capable of, and what he is capable of, and I will never let my marriage get in the spot it was in again.

There ARE predatory AP's
for sure, but like vultures, they can only prey on the weak...

[This message edited by Safeguard at 10:58 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Confused85
New Member
Member # 40813
Default  Posted: 11:03 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I do truly believe that both is at fault. Just because ow seduce u doesn't mean u have to fall for it. A weak heart and mind is not an excuse for infidelity


Before you give up, think about why you held on for so long

Posts: 19 | Registered: Sep 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Safe, you KNOW that not all WS' are *looking* for an affair (as you stated). That is just flat-out not true. That's why the term 'slippery slope' arose. I think this is especially apropos in the case of an EA.....[PA(?) not so much.]

As a general premise....you are 100% right. OW is NOT the problem. The WS is the problem. Period. End of story.

Are there predatory people in this world that only think about themselves and what *they* want with no regard for anyone else? Yep. Stbx met more than a few of *those* people and he was more than happy to give them a few hours of *fun* time in his bed. They made themselves available and he obliged. Of course it didn't *hurt* that he walked around with an *I'm available* sign in flashing neon lights over his head. BUT that IS on him. Does it irritate me to no end that there are women that don't care if a guy is married or not? You bet it does. But I don't hold those women responsible. What they did was TOTALLY uncool...and if I were to ever encounter one of them, they would *meet* my scorn. But my feeling is that those *outsiders* didn't have any type of obligation to me (I don't even know them)....but stbx DID. It was on HIM to resist and reject their predatory advances. He chose not to.

There have been quite a few posts in the last couple of days where the BS seems to be placing all of the 'blame' on the OP and giving the WS a *pass* for being naive or drug dependent or whatever.....that read as if the WS has lost all *free will*. Safe, I *get* that it is frustrating to read that because it really is so far from the truth of the matter. But, hon, you really do have to consider the forum you're posting in and the post count of the person that you're *talking* to. And some BS' just aren't in the mental spot to be able to *accept* that their spouse isn't who they thought they were. They are clinging so tightly to what they *thought* they had (because the new reality is so horrific) that it is easier to put the blame 'somewhere else'.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7696 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:14 PM, September 27th (Friday)

Wow. Holly Isis! You Super Hero. Where have you been?

And I'm really hoping that you meant this in a sincere, not snarky, way?


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7696 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
TattoodChinaDoll
Member
Member # 34602
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, September 27th (Friday)

While (in my case because she knew me, met me, spent time with me, held my DD4 as a newborn, signed the congratulations card for the birth of DD2 and started the affair a month later, and even spent time with me during the A) the OW is not the cause of my WH's choice, she has knowingly brought pain and devastation to my life and my family's. For that I will never forgive. For that I will want to bash her for many many years. And I will until I am ready not to. And I'm not putting an expiration date on it.

However, if a BS is absolving the WS of any wrong doing and saying that the OW was 100% the only one to have made a horrible horrible choice...then that BS will continue to be hurt. The WS will have not fixed whatever it was that caused them to have poor boundaries.


Me (BW): 32
WH: 33 TimeToManUp
Married: 10 years, together 16 years
3 daughters: 8, 5, 2, and and 2 angel babies (2013 and 2014)
D-Day: 12/21/2011
Confronted him: 12/22/2011

I'm getting out of here.


Posts: 1706 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, September 27th (Friday)

confused: Would you agree that it's fair to say, that having a weakened immune system makes one more vulnerable to illness? If so, can you imagine that perhaps being in a weakened emotional state, could make someone more susceptible to manipulation? Some AP's ARE Sociopaths, Some WS's are too.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, September 27th (Friday)

I have said it since day one....or dday, however you want to put it. I have told him this many times over.

I BLAME MY H FOR HIS A WITH OUR NEIGHBOR. I DON'T BLAME THE OW.

My h was 50 years old and well old enough to know what was right from wrong no matter if the whore instigated it or not. HE COULD HAVE SAID NO AND WALKED AWAY.

So I do completely agree with you. I hate the little bitch to this very day for her part, but I don't blame her. The blame is on my h who felt it necessary to destroy our life and marriage as we knew it no matter what the consequence. Even if he thought he would never get caught, he knew the consequences of what would happen if he did.

[This message edited by TICKED OFF at 11:22 PM, September 27th (Friday)]


Posts: 2397 | Registered: Sep 2005
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 11:28 PM, September 27th (Friday)

@Gonna:
I think we cross posted. Yes I was sincere about hollyIsis. I need to remember the stage a person is in. I guess I may be at the "Beyond Jaded" stage.

Thank you for the gentle reminder. I had Heros too once... Hope dies hard, in the heart, I know, but I hate to *see* betrayed people setting themselves up for more. Been there/done that.

[This message edited by Safeguard at 2:32 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Lucky
Member
Member # 6864
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, September 27th (Friday)

If so, can you imagine that perhaps being in a weakened emotional state, could make someone more susceptible to manipulation

But as you've emphatically stated; You don't believe a WS can be in this poor weakened state. Or a BS is an idiot for believing an OW/OM could have some sort "blame". After years of being here.... so many WS's are in a terrible emotional state at the start of an affair. It's not always a WS "choosing" to have an affair... but with your expert opinion, and knowing literally nothing about most of us, you, with slightly over 100 posts, have decided how we all must feel - and why our WS's fell into an affair...


♥ WINE - the other fruit juice! ♥


Posts: 36162 | Registered: Apr 2005
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 11:50 PM, September 27th (Friday)

@TICKEDOFF:

That's pretty much exactly how I feel. With the exception of the one time that the AP was my niece. (She and I had always been close, and I thought we had a truly trusting bond.)Still blamed WH 100% even then for what that did to "US".

I don't feel any which way about either of them now. I'm a little heavier of heart, and I could've lived without whatever "lessons" that chapter of my life held, but I suppose, I AM a much shrewder judge of character now.
Thanks for weighing in. Sorry about your situation. Sounds like it was an excruciating time for you, like most of us.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 11:58 PM, September 27th (Friday)

@Stillhurting:


As was stated by another poster if a person was to steal money from you or perhaps some other act towards you that hurts you on some level would you also say it is wrong of us to blame them since it must be the fault of our purse for being open with our wallet sitting on top.

If your spouse held out your wallet to a homeless person, and said "here take this. S.H. is such a &%$# she doesn't deserve to have it. Even if the homeless person KNEW it was not WH's to give, I would not blame the homeless person, nor the "purse".


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 12:02 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

"Safeguard".....yes, I too am a much better judge of character. It's too bad we had to learn it like this though as you said. And it is really to bad that the learning lesson had to be taught to us by someone who we exchanged vows never ever expecting to get a punch us in the face the stomp all over us.

And thanks for your concern "Safeguard"....at least this is one place I know where most people will understand each other.


Posts: 2397 | Registered: Sep 2005
Lucky
Member
Member # 6864
Default  Posted: 12:02 AM, September 28th (Saturday)


Do you actually have a freaking point in this, because all the nonsensical babbling does distract...


♥ WINE - the other fruit juice! ♥


Posts: 36162 | Registered: Apr 2005
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 1:30 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

After years of being here.... so many WS's are in a terrible emotional state at the start of an affair.

Not sure that I agree with this.....


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7696 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 1:48 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Is no one else sick of the scorn,that the OW gets, while the WH get's the "gift of reconciliation".
Ick! They both did the exact same thing to you. They are both the same.
I find it extremely rare anyone here has ever blamed only the OW while their WH gets the "gift of reconciliation."

I guess I am more sick of people lumping all cheaters together, saying they are "the same" whether they were the WS or the AP.

In fact, every case is different.

I might have been somewhat inclined to agree at one time in my life. At least I will say I did not understand a few women I have known in real life before ever coming to this forum, who were devestated that their spouse left them for an OW, and they seemed to be of the view if the OW would just bow out of the picture, life would be okay again.

It has been 7 years for me and my H and I have R'ed. I still absolutely despise the whore and do blame her for at least 50% of what happened. Yes, that filthy vile peice of garbage pursued my H at the lowest times of his life, following the deaths of his mother and daughter.

The huge difference to me is that my H was and is extremely remorseful and has spent the last 7 years being a better H to me than he ever was in the first 11 years of our M. And the whore was the only one he cheated with. Does that make him better than somebody who cheated with several? Not necessarily but it does make my story "different" not the same, and it does mean I have something different to process and decide whether I can forgive it.

As far as I know the whore is not at all remorseful. I hate her. Perhaps not with the same intensity as I once did, but I hate the type of woman she is and I'm not going to apologize for it.

As far as my marriage goes, of course it is only my H's actions that will really count, especially after that. No matter what the circumstances, no matter who or how hard they pursued, if my H did it again, I would file for a D immediately.

I did say there was a time when I might have felt just a bit different, before this happened in my current M.

My XH cheated with more women than he can count, most of them prostitutes. But he did have at least 2 EA/PAs. It is a little hard to blame all those women when quite obviously my XH went looking for it. (My current H did not, but did do the wrong thing for eventually falling for the ego stroking, etc. that she was giving. It is quite clear to me he learned his lesson and that would not happen again.

One of the EA/PAs my XH was involved with did not know he was married at first; he had lied to her. At first, I did not blame her for anything and was glad she told me the truth (She called me when she got suspicious he was married). but low and behold, after that woman heard me burst into tears, and tell her that I was 7 months pregnant and we were very much married, she still slept with him after that! I don't have the same vengence and hatred for her as the whore who pursued my current H though. It does matter to me who pursues who though I know many here insist it does not matter. It matters to me.

My XH married the final OW (not the one mentioned previously). He is still married to her and they have been married over 20 years. I tolerate her rather well, if I say so myself. I actually feel a bit sorry for her at times because I believe he cheats on her too.

So my main point here is that every case is different.

Some AP's ARE Sociopaths, Some WS's are too.

That's just it; you never really know whether it is the WS or the AP (or both) until you look more closely at the individual set of details. In my case, my XH was the sociopath and in my current case, the Whore that went after my H is the one who gets that title.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 2:10 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Posts: 5682 | Registered: Apr 2006
Confused85
New Member
Member # 40813
Default  Posted: 2:01 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Safeguard
Yes I do agree that having is fair having a weak immune system mean u are more vulnerable to illness. If u know u have a weak immunity to illness then u need to learn how to protect your self. Pervention is the key


Before you give up, think about why you held on for so long

Posts: 19 | Registered: Sep 2013
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 2:12 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

@lucky:
But as you've emphatically stated; You don't believe a WS can be in this poor weakened state. Or a BS is an idiot for believing an OW/OM could have some sort "blame". After years of being here.... so many WS's are in a terrible emotional state at the start o

Please quote me. I never stated, nor implied any such thing.

So let me just throw this back your way:

Do you actually have a freaking point in this, because all the nonsensical babbling does distract.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Laura28
Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 2:13 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Well...what an interesting thread!!!

IMHO FWH is totally to blame for what he did to us. Totally.

But I still get to hate the OWs It is my right!!!! and no one will tell me not to feel that way.

Good grief ....I enjoy it .... it soothes my soul.....and no one can convince me that I shouldn't hate them.

They betrayed the sisterhood.

They are the weakest of the weak, predators, family destroyers who deserve to rot in hell.

(of course if they are FORMER WAYWARDS like our wonderful posters in Wayward side - I don't hate them at all - in fact I have enormous respect for them. Unfortunately FWH's OWs are remorseless so I DO get to hate them!!)

I guess that also means my FWH should be hated and deserves to rot in hell too .... (although he may get off cause I think he is remorseful and I don't think his OWs were M. But who knows??? There were probably others besides those I know about and maybe he is still at it or will start again. Time will tell.)

And a BH could say the same about my FWH and it would be deserved. If my FWH was screwing an OW who was married I would respect the right of the BH to hate him.

So after all that rambling what am I getting at???

IMHO, people on here get to feel what they want to. We should all respect their feelings and just support them where they are in their journey.

The object of our/their anger may change as time goes on. That too is our/their right.

Maybe one day I will stop hating the OWs. Maybe not. However I feel is right for me. No one gets to judge me or how I feel.

Everyone should be supporting our betrayed sisters and brothers through their pain.

If they want to blame the OM/OW that is their right. We may not think it is wise. We may gently try to steer them in another direction. But we don't get to tell them how they should feel.

I do believe that as time goes on they will come to lay the blame where IMHO it belongs - with the WS - but they need to be allowed to find this place in their own time. If they still want to hate the OW/M let them.

Our job is to help them survive and heal.

Not to tell them how they should feel.

HUGS to all

Laura


[This message edited by Laura28 at 3:10 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Married 32yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 60yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA 16+ years).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2738 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
Lulutrixie
New Member
Member # 38418
Default  Posted: 2:39 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

After lurking for many months, I finally posted the first time. Scary!

Although so apprehensive at the prospect of sharing, (my story is very, very ugly) I was fairly confident I would be safe in a community that was focused on supporting people who like me, were victims of abusive partners and destructive marriages.

It turns out I was not quite right. This topic feels as though it has turned nasty - and from where I sit, nasty has no place on SI.
Kate

[This message edited by Lulutrixie at 2:49 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Take care of him. And make him feel important. And if you can do that, you'll have a happy and wonderful marriage. Like two out of every ten couples.

Neil Simon

Posts: 2 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Melbourne, Australia
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 2:40 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

I do believe that as time goes on they will come to lay the blame where IMHO it belongs - with the WS - but they need to be allowed to find this place in their own time. If they still want to hate the OW/M let them.

It's been 7 years for me and I don't think it is going to change. As far as the word "blame" I will say I have forgiven my H. But I acknowledge he did something very wrong, if you want to call that blame.

As for the whore, I blame her too and have not forgiven her. I don't believe it is necessary to forgive anyone whom I don't believe is remorseful.


Posts: 5682 | Registered: Apr 2006
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 3:12 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Bobbi_sue,

Thank you for taking the time to write that very eloquent post.

You helped me gain a little more clarity of though about the whole, "lumped together" syndrome. I was pointing out that it is usually the AP being portrayed as, "The villein of the piece", when in reality it is like you say, not always one way or the other.


That's just it; you never really know whether it is the WS or the AP (or both) until you look more closely at the individual set of details. In my case, my XH was the sociopath and in my current case, the Whore that went after my H is the one who gets that title.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Vulcanized
Member
Member # 33523
Default  Posted: 3:21 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

they seemed to be of the view if the OW would just bow out of the picture, life would be okay again.

Yup. On DD, I thought if OW went away, problem solved. How green I was ... about all of it/XH/OW+ So very, very, very many things I'd yet to discover.

Proof that OW is not some magic vixen, irresistible to XH: after I NC'ed XH, main OW got promoted, which left her spot as side project open. That position was filled in no time.

The object of our/their anger may change as time goes on. That too is our/their right.

Apparently I was neck deep in some BS fog myself. Once my cranial/rectal reversion took place, the blame fell squarely on XH. At this juncture, I think main OW's just punishment is that she still has XH. Sorta. Kinda. When he's not fucking other OW.

XH's main OW knew that he was M'd. She was
fucking him in my bed
, so, yeah, she knew. But my JAMF XH was the one who invited her into my M, home & bed. She was just damaged/crazy/stupid/whatever the correct adjective is enough to go. His job was to protect me & our M. Not only did he fail, he actively brought in the wrecking crew.

Although I am angry at her for working so hard to destroy my M & take my XH, she really isn't the issue to me. In doing so, she gave me the best gift ever, forcing me to see the real XH, not the mask he presented. Again reinforcing in my head that the problem isn't her, the problem is XH.

He's doing the exact same thing to her. I have no idea if they've since gotten M'd, engaged, moved in, etc. Don't know, don't care. But I do know that he's still the same faithless JAMF he was before & during me.

eta: cat on keyboard typos

[This message edited by Vulcanized at 3:24 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Me: MH 40s; Him: MH 40s (I had RA)
OW: 30s, moron; one of many
M: 8 yrs
3/13: D'd
-----------------------------------------------------------
Everything is as it should be.

Posts: 730 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Vulcania
Laura28
Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 3:22 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Lulutrixie

Hi honey

Welcome. Please hang around.

As a fellow aussie I am so sad you had to find us but happy you did. There is so much wisdom here. I know that you will find the help you need.

Firstly, the best place for you is Just Found Out. Here in general and also in Reconciliation there are often discussions which are contentious. Especially among those of us who have been around a while.

I have read your story and am so sorry. Please continue to share your story and let people help you. We all remember what those awful early days were like and want to help the newbies. You will not find a more caring community than SI.

I was fairly confident I would be safe in a community that was focused on supporting people who like me, were victims of abusive partners and destructive marriages.

You are safe honey. You really are.

Please stay. Start your own post in JFO and people will be along to help. It is often quiet here on the weekends and also in the evenings when all the Yanks are in bed but there are also lots of people from Oz and other places who will be in to help.

BIG HUGS

Laura


Married 32yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 60yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA 16+ years).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2738 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
summerain
Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 3:26 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Safeguard I understand your point.

To some of the other posters on this thread: sometimes when we make generalisations it's because we're upset! Let's play nicely!

However, I think it's easier to unload the blame and anger onto our waywards. Because fortunately or unfortunately we still love them and generally care about their feelings.

In some very very rare cases they are 'trapped' but I think it is common sense to realise that the OW or OM didn't 'trap' them.

But emotionally it is a very different thing.

Lulutrixie and Laura 28! Fellow Aussies I wonder how many are on SI?

[This message edited by lauren123 at 3:30 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 3:31 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

@Vulcanized,
That was refreshing!


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Laura28
Member
Member # 28997
Default  Posted: 3:36 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

T/J

Hi Lauren

You'd be surprised how many Aussies there are!!!

I stumble on them from time time. You can also often guess from the times we post .

BIG HUGS honey

Laura


Married 32yrs Me BW 57Yrs Him FWH 60yrs
OWzero 1988 EA?/PA? Gaslighted.
Dday May 28 2010.
OW1 1994(6mths PA, EA 16+ years).
OW2 2002(8yrs PA).
OW3 2009(1Yr PA).
Others???? Status: Not Divorcing..but.."You can't unfuck the goat"

Posts: 2738 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Australia
Holly-Isis
Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 6:12 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

t/j
There ARE predatory AP's
for sure, but like vultures, they can only prey on the weak...

Thank you for saying this. It puts a new perspective on MrH. He likes to portray a strong man. He obviously wasn't or he would have been able to resist temptation. This does not absolve him but rather gives me another perspective. It's the emperor not wearing any clothes...reveals his foolishness as well as the selfishness I already knew was there.


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

❣I hope my issues don't discourage ur healing. I've buried a lot & my WH hasn't done his part in R❣


Posts: 10988 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Limbo
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

The OW is not THE problem, but she is part of the faulty, destructive equation. Nobody can have an affair without an AP.

I do not understand the idea of hating the AP while reconciling with the WS, but it is not mine to understand. The WS is no better or worse of a person than the AP and vice versa.

I have not been at SI long, only since the summer when I started reading, but it appears a very small portion of WS really try to reconcile and change who they are. I give great kudos to the ones who do, but it does not make them better than the person they stepped out with.

It does not matter to me if my WS AP was predatory or if he was. He chose to lie, cheat and betray me. She chose to be his accomplice and willingly be a part of my pain. There is more than enough blame and ill feelings to go around, and not one AP or WS is better than another.

What I cannot right in my head is that they also human and deserve a second chance at life. I am too close to the pain and it has made me bitter and jaded.


"How People treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours"
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013
Dreamland
Member
Member # 40488
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Wow Safeguard are you the OW... This is quite disturbing because the OW did target my Husband. My husband was not LOOKING for an affair. The woman went out of her way to stalk my husband found his pattern.. When he left to and from work. Call a coworker of my WH to get his phone email etc.. And she went to work. When I spoke to her mom.. Her mom said how happy they were and they had big plans for my H. I was like WTF.. Plans he is married. Mother said yes love can be very complicated. She said tons of shit that made me sick and the OW father and mom.. Finally I said to her ..hmm yes he just used her to fuck her in a parking lot in her car.. I guess you call that love.
So I am very hurt angry at my husband. Yes he made the choice but if she would not have been there .. I know he would not have cheated..


Me-BS 50 Him-WH 47, DD17
Together since 1993, Married 19 yrs
DDay 3/12,4/12,7/12 EA-PA OW - 25 single husband chasing bastard whore

Posts: 515 | Registered: Aug 2013
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

I give great kudos to the ones who do, but it does not make them better than the person they stepped out with.
My H was one you are giving kudos to. And the whore who pursued him is still the same nasty whore, has not tried to better herself to my knowledge. So I disagree and will continue make up my mind about individuals separately instead of lumping them together saying all cheaters are the same. I also don't understand your viewpoint of thinking it odd to R with the WS and still hating the whore. My WS is remorseful. I just don't see why it is so horrible to forgive someone who has changed his entire life to be a better person who deserves me for a wife. And as I said before, I've never seen a shread of evidence to indicate the whore is remorseful, or has worked to become a better person.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 10:04 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Posts: 5682 | Registered: Apr 2006
MC_Jack
Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Vulcan kinda summed it up for me. Thank you.

I have observed over the many months here that there is a tendency of BWs to over-focus on OW (more than BHs) do. Look at the BM thread - most of the discussion is solely on the WWs.

I think it is because in society the idea that men are more prone to 'being men' is condoned: that men naturally want multiple partners and they are hapless when under the control of the little brain. Especially when a magic all powerful vagina presented herself.

Well, we men are not hapless.

Plus as BSs we do not know what our WSs told their APs about themselves or the M.

How would we know whether our WS was the predator or not?

Anyways, I agree with Vulcan and in some ways the original premise of the thread, because obsessing over/comparing with/winning against the other woman means energy is being directed AWAY from the main task at hand: seeing clearly what you have, what you want, ending any unhealthy codependent behaviors, looking back at the M candidly, looking at your spouse candidly, etc. These efforts of honest reflection and towards ending denial are so difficult as they are. Why retard the process?


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 843 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
RippedSoul
Member
Member # 40055
Default  Posted: 10:49 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

I HATE what my SAWH did to our two decades-long M--for the devastation and the disease and the disloyalty. Right now, though, since I've chosen to try reconciliation, hating him is counterproductive. I have to approach this with an open heart and a clear mind.

I'm still angry, though. And I still need to vent. So I project as much of the hatred and vengeance and garbage as possible onto OW. It will do her no harm. If it's in my heart long-term, it WILL harm me. So she has become my tool (ironically appropriate, eh?). And, eventually, when hating her has no more appeal, no more value, no more oomph, I'll have to let it go. But for me--not for her.

My bff and I have released steam and injected humor into this whole sordid mess by creating revenge fantasies directed at OW. It feels good. Directing that same passion at my WH would backfire. He is the father of my four beloved children, the only man to ever warm my bed, the husband who vowed to love me forever. Is his betrayal greater? By far. But lashing out at him doesn't help us rebuild this union. The most bitter hurts and curses and vents, therefore, get directed her way.

And I can live with that. Not only that, I find it extremely effective. And if her BH throws darts at a photo of my husband, I would applaud him. In fact, I rather hope he does.


BW: 49; SLAWH: 46; M: 23 yrs
DD#1--11/30/12 (prostitute #1)
DD#2--1/29/13 (AP, escorts #1 & #2)
DD#3--9/13 (trolling MILF site)
DD#4--10/8/13 (EA with AP cont'd)
DD: 20; DD: 18; DS: 16; DS: 14
PS: I've NEVER NOT edited my posts

Posts: 396 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:51 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

I asked you earlier in this thread, Safeguard, what you were upset about. You never answered. Your scorn for BS's that are either trying to lay all the blame on the AP and for the BS's that actually do reconcile is evident. I feel that is just a cover up for what you are really feeling.

Your generalizations and your condescending attitude are evident throughout this thread and I could point them all out and pick them apart piece by piece. I am not going to do that as I neither have the time right now nor do I feel it would help you.

I feel you have a lot of anger and bitterness. That is different from being a strong person. Are you in IC? I feel that maybe really helpful for you, Safeguard.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
RippedSoul
Member
Member # 40055
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Yikes--my first double post.

[This message edited by RippedSoul at 10:55 AM, September 28th (Saturday)]


BW: 49; SLAWH: 46; M: 23 yrs
DD#1--11/30/12 (prostitute #1)
DD#2--1/29/13 (AP, escorts #1 & #2)
DD#3--9/13 (trolling MILF site)
DD#4--10/8/13 (EA with AP cont'd)
DD: 20; DD: 18; DS: 16; DS: 14
PS: I've NEVER NOT edited my posts

Posts: 396 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: California
MC_Jack
Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

That's a healthy statement rippedview...


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 843 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
RippedSoul
Member
Member # 40055
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

Thanks, MC Jack. It works for me.


BW: 49; SLAWH: 46; M: 23 yrs
DD#1--11/30/12 (prostitute #1)
DD#2--1/29/13 (AP, escorts #1 & #2)
DD#3--9/13 (trolling MILF site)
DD#4--10/8/13 (EA with AP cont'd)
DD: 20; DD: 18; DS: 16; DS: 14
PS: I've NEVER NOT edited my posts

Posts: 396 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: California
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

t/j LostAngry
but it appears a very small portion of WS really try to reconcile and change who they are.
And you have these stats where?
I give great kudos to the ones who do, but it does not make them better than the person they stepped out with.

Yes, they are better people if they do the hard work to change themselves. The OW in our case stalked and fished for my FWH for 8-9 years after he ended the affair. My FWH didn't fish or stalk the OW and stayed NC on his part. OW didn't change one bit. An unremorseful cumdumpster who tried to keep inserting itself into our marriage.

end T/J


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
hurtinghearts
Member
Member # 27232
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, September 28th (Saturday)

I find this thread to be very cruel and judgmental towards those of us who may not feel the same way you do.

I DO blame my WS 100%...he was not preyed upon, in fact he was the one doing most of the pursuing.

With that said, the OW knew he was married and they do share some blame, especially if they're not remorseful. Therein lies the difference...although my husband was completely wrong, HE is remorseful.

You know what? The main OW who gave me a sincere apology has been forgiven. she knew she helped cause my world to crash and burn. I hold zero anger towards her because she owned her part.

Those OP's who have not? Well, I'll feel anger towards them forever. And that's my right.

My husband did not get a free pass, but neither should the OP's.

Who the heck are you to tell us how we should feel? In this post and the other post in JFO, you've managed to make those of us who feel pretty bad already even worse. Thanks a lot.


Dday: Jan. 8th, 2010
OW#1 6 month PA...she is remorseful and forgiven. OW#2 The "therapist"... played head games with me. OW#3... loved to give blow jobs in her office. OW#4 the couple from Hell

Posts: 68 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Illinois
LoveActually
Member
Member # 31030
Default  Posted: 1:02 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

The OW in my case knowingly had an affair with a married man and encouraged him daily to end his marriage. Ummm, so although she didn't hold a gun to my husband's head and force him to cheat on me, likewise he didn't hold a gun to her head. She was a willing participant in affair so therefore she gets to take responsibility and OWN her part in what she did. What do you think..I'm going to send her a thank you card. Seriously..what SisterMilkshake said, you are a very angry person and I think your post was meant to stir up everyone and get a little attention for yourself. You got it! Hugs to you because I know you need one.


BS (Me)
WS (Him)
D-Day 5/29/09
Married 11 yrs, together 16 yrs

Posts: 757 | Registered: Jan 2011
Flatlined123
Member
Member # 35862
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I hold OW accountable, but I place more blame on H for his actions and choosing not to talk to me about his depression.

This was a case of H bring in a very dark place in the depths of depression (not that that gives him a pass at all) and OW KNOWINGLY entering into a sick relationship with a married man. A sick married man at that!

This isn't a matter of "Oh, I'm sorry, I let the door slam shut in front of you or I'm sorry I bumped you." You forgive those things automatically. This person decided it was okay to try to destroy a family. She herself had been cheated on before her divorce. She KNEW what it was like to be cheated on!

So the question is this: Knowing the pain that you were caused by infidelity, would you do that to another person? What kind of sick person would do that?

OW deserves every bit of scorn her sorry piece of shit self will ever get in her life!

As someone here previously said, H did not get off easily with the gift of R. He has earned it! He has seen what he's done, he's seen me be reduced to a sobbing pile of mush, curled up in a ball striking out blindly and screaming at him when he tried to comfort me. He's seen me have panic attacks, he saw me drop 50 pounds in two months, he dealt with people asking him if I was okay, was I sick. He had to explain to our kids his poor choices. He's had to deal with the knowing by our friends and family of what he's done. Above all he lives with what he's done every day the same way as I have to.

So was his gift of R easily came by? No way!

On the other hand OW shows no remorse, got married and, as far as I've been told continues her A with a coworker aka her "soulmate"


Me: BS 43
H : WS 46
DD #1 7-11-08
DD#2 8-21-09 same OW, A never ended.
Started R in 12-09
"If what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I should be able to bench press a Buick."

Posts: 652 | Registered: Jun 2012
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I is my opinion that Safeguard made a blanket statement that is both true and not true. Some OW/OM are predatory and some BS's get stuck in their need to focus anger and hatred on a party outside of their relationship.

IMO both things have happened in my tenure on the board. That's my opinion in my reading of threads over years.

If it is a phase in the process, some people work through it. Some people don't. Some people feed off that anger and cycle through it and never reach indifference. It happens. but who is going to come out and admit that? More often is going to be seen as an accusation of those poster who experienced the predator effect.
This is my opinion based on my time here. No more or less valid than anyone else on the board.

I once posted an unpopular topic about surprise pregnancies after d-day. Is it wrong to even pose the question that some couples/individuals use that as a shortcut to ensure R? It is touchy. Because there are real surprises too. But, again IMO, using pregnancy, the new child, has been used to shore up R and commitment to the marriage.

Is my posing the question an attack on anyone who had a HB child? I don't think so.

I don't know, but this thread reminded me of it.


I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3151 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 1:57 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

In our case the A would not have happened at that time without the OW stroking my H's ego at a vulnerable time and making herself available. He was not "looking". But he also would have never had dealt with his lifelong issues and it likely would have happened at some other time. She was incidental, no one he would have "chosen".

He does not blame her. He realizes that her praise was excessive and she made herself available, but knows it was his boundaries that failed and his coping skills that were faulty. He acknowledges that she threatened him to keep it going but that he was the one that crossed that line. He thinks they were equally "sick and affected".

I don't hate her but pity her and do feel scorn for her. We were friendly and on Dday I did speak to her. Her excuse was that she was "lonely"!

He has changed in every possible way. I don't care what she has done.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1710 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
prowoman
Member
Member # 40761
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I agree with the basis of your argument. I think it is super naive to think any AP force any WS into an A. I think trying to put the blame on AP is rugsweeping/sugarcoating the situation. I don't expect or need someone I don't know to share my morals, but my WH had made a promise not to do this.


me: BS 39 | stbxWH: 46
DD14, DS2
DDAY: Aug12... A continued "underground"
Separated Nov13- OC due June14

Posts: 118 | Registered: Sep 2013
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

And you have these stats where?

No stats, simply my perception, which is what a lot of the posts on this board are. Are you asking for stats simply due to my perception not lining up with yours? I have read many statements of BS wishing their WS would read, come to SI, go to counseling, do the work. The stats say somewhere between 30-60% of marriages will survive infidelity. All that means is they do not divorce. It does not mean there is true reconciliation. It means "not divorced". I do believe many, many WS are too broken to even care enough to want to change. Do you have stats showing how many couples "reconcile"?

Yes, they are better people if they do the hard work to change themselves. The OW in our case stalked and fished for my FWH for 8-9 years after he ended the affair. My FWH didn't fish or stalk the OW and stayed NC on his part. OW didn't change one bit. An unremorseful cumdumpster who tried to keep inserting itself into our marriage.

You could be right, but many people think we are all broken and none are better than the other. Are we better than the person standing next to us in the grocery line, or are we simply broken and damaged in different ways?

I could not say. It is a large part of what I am struggling with. I would like to believe I am better than a WS or AP, perhaps I am simply damaging to society in a different manner, or one that is easier to hide. Hell if I know.


"How People treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours"
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

No stats, simply my perception, which is what a lot of the posts on this board are.
Well, than maybe you should say it is my perception and not make it sound like a factual statement. And, your perception from what? The 40,000 something members here? Kind of a skewed sampling.
Do you have stats showing how many couples "reconcile"?
Nope, I don't, but I didn't make a statement like yours, either.
I give great kudos to the ones who do, but it does not make them better than the person they stepped out with.
You didn't say does this make them a better person than a person standing next to them in the grocery line. You specifically said this doesn't make them better than the person they stepped out with. And, imo, yes, if they have done the work and the AP is an unremorseful cumdumpster still, yes they are better.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

The OW is not the problem!

I agree with the premise of this thread. We live in a fairly large city. I bet there are about a thousand guys trolling the bars and dance clubs every weekend who are just like my WW's fAP. They are a dime a dozen. I always took it for granted that there were plenty of broken men who would sleep with my wife. Just never thought she'd give one of them the opportunity.

Is my wife's OM a predator? Maybe. A scavenger is a more accurate term. Just like the African safari, there's plenty of scavengers out there in the human world looking for easy kills. It's up to us and our spouses to figure out why they were easy prey for lowlifes. There will always be lowlifes.

I agree that our spouses are the problem. It's normal IMO to hate the OM/OW, but it really is a total waste of psychic energy.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciling


Posts: 1327 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
thewife0404
Member
Member # 22684
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I agree with the basis of your argument. I think it is super naive to think any AP force any WS into an A. I think trying to put the blame on AP is rugsweeping/sugarcoating the situation. I don't expect or need someone I don't know to share my morals, but my WH had made a promise not to do this.

DITTO!
I AM A BS...and it is disturbing to hear a BS say "OW/OM knew WH/WW was married". I always think well damn...did WH/WW attend their wedding? Did they not know they were married? I do however understand that this projection is a part of what I call the denial to recovery process.

My personal feeling is that no matter how sexy, alluring or predatory another woman is - it is MY HUSBAND responsibility to safeguard OUR MARRIAGE, our family and MY heart that I GAVE to HIM!

I don't think it is appropriate to accuse Safeguared of being an OW/OM because she feel this way. I am sure others feel this way they just have not verbalized it because of the nature of the forum.

[This message edited by thewife0404 at 4:14 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


A man is not a secure retirement plan!
BS-45
WXH-47
DS-18
DD-16
DS-14
DDay-Jan99
OC#1-10
DD#2-Same OW-Jan04
OC#2-5
DIVORCED-OCT 04

Posts: 68 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Hell
Arianya
New Member
Member # 19321
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I agree with you "the wife", and others with a similar viewpoint.

I'm not an AP, nor a BS, just a casual observer here, but in my mind, it shouldn't matter if someone strolls by someone in a bathing suit, strips down in front of them, propositions them, offers sex on a platter, etc., it's the married person's responsibility to just say NO, period. Is that totally unrealistic of me to think?? If the married person said no, the affair would never happen. I suppose though, this only works if one person is married, if they both are, I'm not sure...I guess it would come down to whoever is doing the propositioning should be shut down from the get-go, no thanks, done deal, no affair. I tend to think in black and whites though.


Posts: 17 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Canada
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

My gut feeling upon reading your initial post and your snarky responses to BSes who dared to counter your assumptions was that you have a real problem. SisterMilkshake asked you what you are upset about, and you haven't answered her.

IMHO, it is healthier to hate AP's, OW, OM, etc. than fellow BS'es.

This forum is to help people recover, not tear them down farther.

HBH


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 5:05 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Redrock: Thanks for your thoughts.

I didn't post: "I can't believe the dumb ass BS's can't see that their WS's are losers."

That's not, at all how I was feeling, thinking, or what I was trying to express.

I feel like that's how some people are trying to re-frame the post though. (In some cases to the point of, "Me thinks they do protest to much!).

I AM a BS! I have just noticed that there are certain emotional *Tar Pits* (like the pregnancy one, you mentioned, yup...), that many BS's can get stuck in.


I wanted to see if others were seeing that same pattern. (it seemed to me, to be cropping up a LOT!)

We all view currant events through the filter of our past experiences... I didn't think I could be the only one noticing this.

There were some really thoughtful, insightful comments posted in this thread.

I appreciate all the
view points expressed. There is so much we can learn from each other!

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. My intent was never a malicious one.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

@Hurtbut hopeful,

I didn't answer Sisters question, because she has no basis on which she could have formed the opinion that I am "angry". Just because someone questions the Status Quo, does not make them an angry and accusatory.

Geeeze Louise!


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Well, than maybe you should say it is my perception and not make it sound like a factual statement. And, your perception from what? The 40,000 something members here? Kind of a skewed sampling.

I am sorry, I disagree. I do not believe it is necessary to qualify each post I make with "in my opinion or it is my perception". Most posts made on SI are opinions and perceptions of individual members and not scientific facts that need bibliographies, so we will need to agree to disagree regarding that. My perceptions is based on reading here and many other blogs, psychology sites and forums about infidelity. It is not a single view perception.

You didn't say does this make them a better person than a person standing next to them in the grocery line. You specifically said this doesn't make them better than the person they stepped out with. And, imo, yes, if they have done the work and the AP is an unremorseful cumdumpster still, yes they are better.

Perhaps, or perhaps the APs have worked in the past on other parts of themselves that WS have not. Perhaps they are not remorseful about their affair with a WS, but they are remorseful about other areas of their life. Perhaps they are remorseful about nothing.

I am trying to decide what is mine to judge and what is not. Do I judge and name call an unremorseful WS and forget about the plank in my eye? I have been exacting revenge for a long time and perhaps it was acceptable because of who it was against, but if there is Karma, is the way I've gone about revenge good or bad, and what am I reaping?

Does Karma care who we judge and why, or simply that we judge while we look away from our sins? Are my sins "more" acceptable because they are not the atrocity of infidelity?

As you can see, I have many thoughts to dig through. I have judged for a long time, and I am now questioning if the judgments are healthy and truthful.

I philosophically understand shifting the hate and blame to the AP as to make it easier to R with the WS. It is hard to R with somebody you hate and consider a cumdumpster. BTW, I liked that particular nickname, I called the man's AP that from the erotic website many times. I went as far as to put it in letter(s) I mailed. She in turn, showed me compassion and kindness, and never once called me a name. So yes, I wrestle with a blanket idea that anyone of us is better even than an unremorseful WS or AP.

Perhaps she fucked with my head.


"How People treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours"
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013
BIZZYBEEZ
Member
Member # 37645
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

My scorn for the other woman has nothing to do with her knowingly having an affair with my husband whom she KNEW was married. That is his cross to bear - HE made a commitment to me NOT her. She could've been anybody. My scorn for the other woman comes from what she has done in the last 11 months since I found out. She has REPEATEDLY made contact with me in some form be it email, FB, Pinterest, calling my work, calling my home - acting as if SHE were the injured party! I hate her!


BW (me) - 47
WH (him) - 39
DDay - 10/22/2012 (worst day of my life)

Learning to breathe again - one day at a time


Posts: 235 | Registered: Nov 2012
HurtButHopeful?
Member
Member # 25144
Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

HELLO?! Your husband was looking to have an affair, or else he wouldn't have been in one!

Is no one else sick of the scorn,that the OW gets, while the WH get's the "gift of reconciliation".

and
"Oh she was 20yrs younger, thinner, better vocabulary, and he succumbed... after all
I did gain a pound after seven children and didn't meet his every sensual desire
and he was alone, drinking, with the "wrong" friends...

I can FORGIVE WH... (After I put him through hell for several yrs, as "proof that he does, in fact, love ONLY me). But the OW was just a HO. No redemption for that Bitch. You lured my poor defenseless husband to cheat on me! Why that's emotional rape! She should rot in prison!

Again. WHATEVER MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER


OK, maybe you are not angry, you just have a lousy attitude towards any BS who isn't reacting to the A exactly like you are.

I wonder if the OP wasn't your niece if you might be able to bring yourself to hate her, and get some relief. But hating your niece would probably mess up some otherwise nice family dynamics, right?

People on SI are all at different stages. Hating OW is a stage in some people's healing process.

Many BSes feel very insecure right after DDay, looking for reasons to blame themselves for the A. Transferring the blame to their WS and the OP is healthy, because that is exactly where the blame lies.

You have been told by many BSes who have responded to your thread that they lay the blame squarely on their WSes shoulders, not all on the OP.

Many OPs act like crazy people before and after the A. In my case, the OP was a serial cheater, looking for her next target. Yes, she was 15 years younger but NOT SMARTER, and although she is pretty, I am also pretty and in great shape for my OLD age!

My H was not a serial cheater. OW hit on M men who under normal conditions were devoted to their wives and children. She used the same tactic: damsel in distress.

Yes, my H chose to listen to her sob story, and when she complimented him for being so nice, something clicked inside his head, and he jumped off the side of the cliff with her!

My H has learned his lesson: no matter how badly you feel about yourself, don't look to OP for affirmation, look inside yourself and talk with your W!

edited b/c I hit submit before I was finished with the post.

[This message edited by HurtButHopeful? at 5:53 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


Reconciliation means that we both are authentic and vulnerable. I still have my H, and he's a better man than ever!

Posts: 1716 | Registered: Aug 2009
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 5:46 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

When I first asked the question, Safeguard, I said you seemed upset. Didn't say angry.

As HBH? has pointed out you have made some angry statements. When the post is written in that way, yeah, it does come off as angry and bitter. imo
questions the Status Quo, does not make them an angry and accusatory.

I have a problem with what you perceive as the Status Quo here at SI.
"The other women made him do it", mentality seems rampant
This is what I have a problem with other than the way you delivered and defended your opinion. This isn't the rampant mentality here. Yes, some BS's may feel that way, it isn't rampant, though. If it was, we wouldn't have a Reconciliation forum we would have a Rugsweeping forum.

eta: Your post on the thread in JFO (which seems to have triggered you to start a thread in General) seemed angry, unkind, less than compassionate, not empathetic at all. Sheesh! If this isn't you angry, I would hate to see what you are like when you are.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 6:59 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

T/j LostAngry ~ I will concede the first point as you did put the word "appear" in the sentence.
The stats say somewhere between 30-60% of marriages will survive infidelity. All that means is they do not divorce. It does not mean there is true reconciliation. It means "not divorced".
Exactly. Do you have some super special insight and knowledge unbeknownst to anyone else into these 30%-60% marriages that have survived to know that the WS's haven't done the work needed?
Does Karma care who we judge and why, or simply that we judge while we look away from our sins? Are my sins "more" acceptable because they are not the atrocity of infidelity?
We are an infidelity site, not a sinning site. We are addressing the infidelity issues. There is nothing wrong with making judgments. Most everyone makes judgments everyday. That is how we decide what we do. And, yeah, as I said in your other thread I believe the AP mindfucked you. end t/j


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
fourever
Member
Member # 30631
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Well said, Sister. I agree. And add, that had I not transferred some of that hatred and anger to her, I would not have been able to R with fwh. (Although, she was a predator and stalker of his for 24 years, we just didn't know it.) I still feel that way, but it does not give him a free pass by any means.

It's a process. It was mine, it may be another's, and it may not be someone else's.

We all do what we do to Survive Infidelity. A pretty shitty life lesson, but we do what we can to get through it. And every person deserves support and patience while here, no matter what others think or feel. Even when we are swinging a 2x4.

((Safeguard)), we all wish you as good an outcome as is possible in your unique situation, and you can count on all of us to help you through the difficult days, weeks and years.

[This message edited by fourever at 6:26 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


In R since shortly after DD.
Discovered what was right in front of him and nearly lost.

Always, tell the other BS! Always!

"It's hard to be in love when you can't tell lies"!


Posts: 873 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Northeast
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 6:28 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Safeguard phrased the topic in a way to throw the gauntlet down hard. Probably not the best choice if you want discussion and not heated debate.

It was in your face. But I do think that the underlying point is one that is valid to discuss.

HELLO?! Your husband was looking to have an affair, or else he wouldn't have been in one!

Is no one else sick of the scorn, that the OW gets, while the WH get's the "gift of reconciliation".

Not politically correct but this statement doesn't bother me because bottom line, its true- at least in my experience.

If you have been here long enough and never gotten a little annoyed by a poster quoting from the WS handbook or doing the doormat dance and acting like it is the first time anyone has ever heard those arguments... you are a better member than I am.

That is Why the staff gives us reminders when we need them. You can get a little jaded with some of the re-occurring thread cycles that focus on sometimes implausible, yet not 100%impossible circumstances.

An example- There are times when a newbie takes comfort in the fact that their wayward may have had sex but didn't climax. Is this really happening as much as it is clocked on the board? Probably not. I am sure that is has happened but, IMO, not in the numbers I have read here.

And when reading the umpteenth thread on it, my empathy meter, may be stuck on the jaded end. I try never to post when I am in that mode.

Because most people come here when they are in real pain and need us. I remember what that is like. I wonder how I made the old guard scratch their heads when I arrived. If I could receive that kind of wisdom and support, I can certainly try to give some of it back.


[This message edited by redrock at 7:02 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3151 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
mindisgone
Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

We are an infidelity site, not a sinning site. We are addressing the infidelity issues. There is nothing wrong with making judgments. Most everyone makes judgments everyday

I think that is just what Safeguard is doing.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 682 | Registered: Jan 2008
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

mindisgone that was in response to LostAngry, not Safeguard.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
mindisgone
Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Yes I know Sister.
I was thinking as I read this whole thread, in my 50+ yrs on the planet, I have known a lot of cheaters, male and female.
Truth, some of the women were initiating but most of the men were the aggressors . 80-20 i'd say. IMHO.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 682 | Registered: Jan 2008
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Oh, okay, I understand what you mean, now, mindisgone.
some of the women were initiating but most of the men were the aggressors. 80-20 i'd say. IMHO.

But, now, I am going to have to disagree with you on this. I know it is your opinion, but I feel that the aggressors of affairs is an equal opportunity "sin", and feel it is probably more 50/50. imo


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
niaveone
Member
Member # 40317
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

At the end of the day, the MOW was not the problem. My WS was the problem.

*BUT* having said that, I can still say I don't like MOW, I don't have one iota of sympathy for MOW, and I do hold her responsible for her end of the affair taking place.

MOW had a history of swinging, partner swapping, and having an open marriage. While amoungst other like minded people, these would nor should be an issue...the fact that she kept WS in the dark about it, portrayed herself as a vulnerable, honest, dedicated, emotionally abused spouse...and was the one to start the inappropriate relationship by giving out her cell phone number for "after hours business needs: (she was the account sales contact for WS's place of work at her business) and starting inappropriate texts with WS. She had a history of doing this with others, even though WS had no idea.

That, in my mind, makes her a predator. And even though at the end of the day, WS was the one to break our vows; I still think she has a HUGE part in helping him get into the fog by conditioning him and grooming him. I really do.


Me: BS
Him: WS
Married: 16 years
2 children
2 DDays

Posts: 193 | Registered: Aug 2013
sullymeishadomi
Member
Member # 16305
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Maybe in the beginning days of the affair the bs blames the ap. Its a shock to the bs's system to know their spouse fucked them with the ultimate betrayal. Its easier to blame the ap. Maybe its survival mode. I know for about a yr I mostly blamed ap...and people here kept setting me straight.

Unless the ap truly did not know the ws was married (some ws are better liars than others), both are to be held responsible tho from different angles.

My ws is responsible because for the last 4 of 6 yrs idiot lied and manipulated out of every oraface.

Ap is responsible because she knew from day 1 he was married. I spoke to her last February and she sees nothing wrong in what she was doing. No shame.

I have and still refer to both wh and ap as sluts/ho's.

I am not in R (im in a sick self imposed limbo), but imo R is a long and bumpy road. Ws has to face what he/she has done. Ws also has to deal with the tornado of feelings from the bs. Thats not letting the ws off scott free.

What im about to say is not meant in anger. Im just being direct.

If you wish to absolve the ow or not hold her accountable, that is your preference. That is to be respected, tho some may not understand. Just please do not force your opinions on those of us who think differently. Repsect our opinion because we have validity in our belief.


People tell you exactly who they are...why expect them to be what they are not

Posts: 8210 | Registered: Sep 2007
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 7:33 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

@rerdrock,

Yes. I will cop to being "annoyed". I think that's fair to say. I did pose the question in a sarcastic tone, I suppose.

But I was puzzled... That more people weren't saying,

"Hey OW wasn't alone, in that parking lot, behaving like a sleaze bag."

Comment after comment...

constantly about the AP being *desperate* enough, to settle for crumbs from a married man. IMO AP wasn't settling for crumbs.

AP was getting the same thing the WS was getting. Exactly what they wanted. People do what they want. And yes,
People change, but not that much.

Not saying there aren't some AP's that are settling in the hope of more, but sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar.


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 7:34 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I don't mean to t/j but I am interested in if anyone is of the belief that if a Wayward is groomed, and preyed upon.... Does that does mitigate that wayward's level of responsibility as opposed to a wayward that just straight up chooses to cheat?

I have always believed that indifference is the goal towards the OW. Is that compatible with continued hatred/anger? I am not saying its not, just wondering how it is managed? Do you compartmentalize or just accept those feelings and keep on truckin?

I know some people have already answered this. But I thought I would throw it out there.


I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3151 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Oh and red, also when you said,

Not politically correct but this statement doesn't bother me because bottom line, its true- at least in my experience.

That's exactly the way I roll. If there's truth in what I read it doesn't bother me, how it was expressed. (But firmly stated misconceptions bug me. )


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
Safeguard
Member
Member # 38899
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

red we cross posted. t/j away, I am interested too, in the answer to your questions...

I like what one poster said about the OW being just "Incidental"...

I do think grooming takes place. Predatory people are out there, and are very, very destructive & dangerous to others. and I do think the predator get's the lions share of the blame. (in those cases).

[This message edited by Safeguard at 7:53 PM, September 28th (Saturday)]


"since your actions don't match your words, excuse me while I stop believing you."

Posts: 143 | Registered: Apr 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I had a sincere concern for your wellbeing, Safeguard. However, with your continued dismissive attitude and
firmly stated misconceptions
I will now bow out with a quote:
WHATEVER MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9404 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Safeguard- We cross posted.

AP was getting the same thing the WS was getting. Exactly what they wanted. People do what they want. And yes,
People change, but not that much.

I think it is more complex than just a 'want'. But both parties made that final choice to cheat.

Someone made a point about from the BS standpoint the OW/OM is stuck in that snapshot of them as the party to the infidelity. You don't see them have remorse, make changes and strive to be a better person. I think that is interesting in how the anger is maintained.

That point of view in very interesting and I am not sure I have ever considered that idea.

I do believe in change. I don't think I could R if I didn't. It isn't easy and it takes time. It isn't a choice. It is a process and a long one.

Open yourself up to the idea that change is possible. Significant, life altering change can happen. I have seen it here and in my own marriage. But it doesn't happen in 6 months and it doesn't happen without falling down a whole hell of a lot.


I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3151 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 8:01 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

People do what they want. And yes,
People change, but not that much.

And what exactly do you mean by that? I'm trying to be objective, but given your attitude through this whole thread and how you've managed to make other feels dismissed, I'm sincerely curious about your above statement.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196472 | Registered: May 2002
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

Exactly. Do you have some super special insight and knowledge unbeknownst to anyone else into these 30%-60% marriages that have survived to know that the WS's haven't done the work needed?

It is mostly common sense. Am I to believe all couples who choose to stay together are doing so because it is made up of a remorseful, heavy lifting WS? I also have the posts of BS here, in blogs, and other infidelity forums that outright state they have not and will not divorce even though they have not R'd. They stay for a myriad reasons, but they fully state they are not and probably will not R. They simply choose to "not divorce".

We are an infidelity site, not a sinning site. We are addressing the infidelity issues. There is nothing wrong with making judgments. Most everyone makes judgments everyday. That is how we decide what we do. And, yeah, as I said in your other thread I believe the AP mindfucked you. end t/j

I suppose it depends on the judgment. Safeguard made a judgment and it appears her judgment was seen as "wrong" by many.

I don't mean to t/j but I am interested in if anyone is of the belief that if a Wayward is groomed, and preyed upon.... Does that does mitigate that wayward's level of responsibility as opposed to a wayward that just straight up chooses to cheat?

Your question pinpoints what bothers me most about the "AP was predatory" thought or statement. It brought me to the realization that when I have read that here and other places, I think "What does it matter?" It should not negate or lessen the responsibility, blame and CHOICE of the WS, remorseful or otherwise. Channing Tatum could have preyed on me every day while I was married and it would not have lessened my ability to tell him "No thank you" even though my husband was borderline emotionally abusive.

I don't feel bad for WS or AP that are "preyed upon" nor do I think they are less than 100% responsible for choosing to mess around. An affair cannot be forced, or it changes from affair to rape.


"How People treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours"
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

People change, but not that much.

I hope you are wrong. I want to change and be better. I have to believe I can change the parts of myself that chose to sling hate and anger at a woman I never met.


"How People treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours"
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

AP was getting the same thing the WS was getting. Exactly what they wanted. People do what they want. And yes, 
People change, but not that much.

They don't? Hmmmm. I seem to remember reading post after post from BS's stating how much this "changed" them. How friends and family don't recognize them. Granted, this obviouosly is not something they're thrilled about but it's a change none the less.

Life changes us. Our experiences change us. That's impossible to ignore or deny. How it changes us is our choice. People can look in the mirror and say, yuck. Don't like this person looking back at me. I'm not going to be this person anymore. 

Or they just go forward content to blame others for all the shit that happens to them because of them. Being a victim of anything can be a highly addictive thing. No accountability. No ownership. No responsibility. 

I read the book Night by Eli Wiesel. That book imprinted on my very soul. The suffering he endured. The pain he witness. The losses he experienced. Dear God. Then I heard him say this in one of his speeches..."When a person doesn't have gratitude, something is missing in his or her humanity."

I'm not dismissing the pain that I see here every day. If I didn't respect it and wasn't moved by it I'd have left long ago. I understand the horror betrayal can inflict. The pain. Eli Wiesel witnessed atrocities that are truly unimaginable and wrote so beautifully of his anger and blame he felt for God, yet he survived. He survived and has spent his life fighting for the rights of others. And yet he feels tremendous gratitude. How humbling that is. How inspiring. How helpful. There is always something we have to be grateful for. Regardless of how dark things are and how alone we feel. While we talk of hope I honestly believe it's gratitude that saves us and changes us. Forever.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 9:06 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I don't feel bad for WS or AP that are "preyed upon" nor do I think they are less than 100% responsible for choosing to mess around. An affair cannot be forced, or it changes from affair to rape.

I agree with this.

And that's not me (a WS) "defending" my former AP. That's me saying that I, as the married party, had a responsibility to my marriage that the AP did not have. It could be argued that he had a responsibility to be a decent human being and, thereby, not engage in an affair with a married woman. But that, to me, is different than saying he had an equal share of responsibility for me upholding the marriage vows that I freely made with my XH.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
suposd2btheonly1
Member
Member # 40753
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, September 28th (Saturday)


HELLO?! Your husband was looking to have an affair, or else he wouldn't have been in one!

Uhmmm NO. He wasn't looking for an affair, and YES, he was preyed upon by an OW who wanted my life.

This was the case in my WH AP as well. I hate the OW, she kept on and kept on with my husband and one day she got her foot in the door. It was a day we were having issues with family stuff and that was all it took. He had been talking to her on the phone for a week and one day i was texting him from work telling him how unhappy i was becoming with a current situation and he suggested a break to try and think without being in each others faces. He told her and on my next day off she magically appeared in our town and asked to meet up for lunch. He said okay, she suggested a hotel, he didn't say no and that was the first time WH allowed his dick out of his pants and into hers. I hate her to say the least and wish nothing but heartache and great emotional damage...human being or not!


Me: BW 31
Him: WH 30
OW: 22yo whore who is still planning her wedding
Married 3yrs, together 5
4 kids, all boys 14, 11, 4 and 8mos...I hope like hell they don't hurt someone the way he hurt their mama
Dday: August 9, 2013
S, until his head

Posts: 206 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, September 28th (Saturday)

I don't mean to t/j but I am interested in if anyone is of the belief that if a Wayward is groomed, and preyed upon.... Does that does mitigate that wayward's level of responsibility as opposed to a wayward that just straight up chooses to cheat?

No, it doesn't mitigate responsibility, but yes, people do get coerced, manipulated and even blackmailed into affairs.

Many people are not healthy or strong psychologically. In my experience, children who are abused (emotionally, physically or sexually) and don't have any adult they can trust, grow up broken in certain ways. They can become predators out of desperation, or prey out of worthlessness.

Both OW and fWH in our situation were children of abusive alcoholics. Both were abandoned. They grew up with low self-worth, destructive coping skills, and poor boundaries.

Their nightmare childhoods were not their choice or their fault. However, as adults, we are all responsible for our emotional and mental health. OW and fWH should have sought significant, long term support and counseling to become stronger, healthier people.

Instead of facing the past and learning to be fully emotionally functional, they denied and suppressed their damage. They chose to remain as ticking time bombs--under a certain amount of pressure, they were going to explode and do a lot of harm to themselves and others.

And they did. Out of intense fear of being alone, OW coerced fWH into a compromising position and then blackmailed him to keep him. Out of lack of boundaries and self-destruction, fWH became OW's puppet. They were two broken people, locked in a dysfunctional, pitiful echo of the abusive relationships of their childhoods.

They are both fully accountable for their actions. But, I also feel compassion for both of them. Especially when I look at my sweet innocent children and think about what was happening to OW and fWH at their ages. Having understanding and feeling compassion doesn't diminish their full responsibility.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
Marathonwaseasy
Member
Member # 40674
Default  Posted: 12:50 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Everyone's situation although similar is different
I'm only 2 weeks post dday and have not reached indifference re AP
My FWH is a damaged child as described by sailorgirl and chose to deny this leaving him vulnerable. He shouldn't have cheated obviously but he was easy prey
And my god did she prey on him. When they initially became "friends" he told me about her and I welcomed her into my home, offered to help her and tried to befriend her. She rejected my overtures. This was over a year before the PA started. Even then she had set her sights on my husband. I didn't realise that he was still in contact with her and the EA started a few months later. She did the whole damsel in distress act and drew him in. But throughout the A and after she hates me. Ok some of this is based on what FWH says but also from the texts she sent and the phone calls before I blocked her. She sees herself as the wounded party. She was vicious to me
My crime - I'm successful and I used to be fat which she despised and then I lost weight and she hated me even more for being slim and successful. I did nothing to her yet she hated me.
In some ways I'd blame her less if she actually had loved him. I know he wasn't hers to love but during the peak of the A FWH ended up in hospital due to a breakdown. She didn't contact him or visit him when he was at his lowest. Why he went back to her after that I can't understand.


Me BS, 41
Him WS, 45
EA and PA (PA for 11 months)
DDay 13/9/13
3 children - 15,12,3
WS has bipolar, no excuse...

"We're not broken, just bent. We can learn to love again."


Posts: 421 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Ireland
wonderpets
Member
Member # 35901
Default  Posted: 2:26 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

I tend to think that most people who were "preyed upon" are full of shoot and giving the BS what they want to hear.

Posts: 200 | Registered: Jun 2012
Marathonwaseasy
Member
Member # 40674
Default  Posted: 2:40 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Maybe wonderpets
But not what I wanted to hear. My FWH is so damaged and ill due to his childhood and has been in denial about this that his boundaries were non existent.
He's aware he has to man up now but it doesn't make it easier on me seeing how broken he is
And OW has form. I was warned. I told him but he wanted to be the KISA. Rather than face his shit. Now his shit is even greater and I'm drowning in it too
Not a good thing


Me BS, 41
Him WS, 45
EA and PA (PA for 11 months)
DDay 13/9/13
3 children - 15,12,3
WS has bipolar, no excuse...

"We're not broken, just bent. We can learn to love again."


Posts: 421 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Ireland
gma56
Member
Member # 19595
Default  Posted: 2:46 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

I'm 5 yrs from dday and now D for the second time in my life because of infidelity.
I too believe the OP is just a low life that took advantage of a person with poor boundaries and has many other issues.
It was still the WS's choice to cheat and lie knowing their actions could result in divorce.
Many WS won't do any work to fix themselves and others become better people because of what happened.
I agree the total blame is on the WS of an affair.
If an OP ends up with a WS that has no remorse, they get what they deserve.
JMO
Gma


BW-Divorced
It's my life now, my choices, my mistakes to make and my victories to celebrate. His choices made me free of liars and betrayers in my life. I lost my family but gained a second chance to be happy.

Posts: 20323 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Half way to where I want to be.
Marathonwaseasy
Member
Member # 40674
Default  Posted: 3:22 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Oh yes 100% responsible for his decision to cheat.
But I'm responsible for years of enabling him through my codependency.
And that needs addressing but is much harder to do so because he's cheated.
But I don't have to like the OW do I?
And I'm scared of her attacking me more because she knows where I live and my mobile number although her number is blocked she can still get to me. And I don't want my kids to know

[This message edited by Marathonwaseasy at 4:26 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


Me BS, 41
Him WS, 45
EA and PA (PA for 11 months)
DDay 13/9/13
3 children - 15,12,3
WS has bipolar, no excuse...

"We're not broken, just bent. We can learn to love again."


Posts: 421 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Ireland
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 4:14 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Well..I didn't have this problem. My WH cheated on me with a man. A man from craigslist,at that. I knew within 2 minutes on dday that this OM could have been anybody..he was just willing and convenient. I have never felt hatred towards him..disgust..and anger..sure..but no hate.

However...I have been a member of SI long enough..and have read many,many stories here to know there are some OW who are predatory. And I think it's important to know that not all OW are the same. Some stalk the BW..and the kids. Some do this for YEARS. Hell..not to long ago a BW posted in JFO that the OW confronted her in her HOME with her kids there...walked INTO her house and confronted her and the kids in the kitchen. THAT is NOT a "blameless OW."

I think if an OW knows the man is married and goe ahead with the affair,she IS to blame for HER actions. No..she didn't make the commitment..so what? I have a dog. When he is outside,I trust that my neighbor won't come over and kick him. Why shouldn't I also expect her to not come over and fuck my husband?

People may not "owe" other people respect and decency..but that doesn't mean they are not responsible for their own actions.


ETA: I do think that telling a newly betrayed wife that she is a terrible person for hating the OW who was fucking her husband is bullshit. Some sensitivity..and perhaps remembering what it was like for *you* during those early days might be a good idea. Some compassion is needed to post in JFO.

[This message edited by confused615 at 4:18 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7139 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
summerain
Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 4:31 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

People may not "owe" other people respect and decency..but that doesn't mean they are not responsible for their own actions.

I think that was beautifully put confused615.

I have a dog. When he is outside,I trust that my neighbor won't come over and kick him. Why shouldn't I also expect her to not come over and fuck my husband?

exactly!

p.s I was also shocked at the JFO, not very cool

[This message edited by lauren123 at 4:34 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 4:41 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

-t/j -

Thanks,lauren123.

Me too!


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7139 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

I am interested in if anyone is of the belief that if a Wayward is groomed, and preyed upon.... Does that does mitigate that wayward's level of responsibility as opposed to a wayward that just straight up chooses to cheat?
I have stated repeatedly on this forum that I blame OW at least as much, if not more for what happened, because yes, she went after him when he was at the lowest point of life after losing his mother and DD.

But does this mitigate his responsibility? Well, no I have never looked at it that way. First of all, it seems like many of these posts are implying that people early on blame the AP rather than their "victimized" spouse. Yet that did not describe me. I was 100% angry at my H at first and didn't have too much energy to even think about the whore's part in it. In fact I really did not know that she "went after" him rather than the other way around in the beginning. It was after investigating the story on my own, seeing my H's responses to things, and just how the puzzle somewhat came together that I LATER determined this nasty woman went after him the way she did when he most certainly was not out there looking for someone (who could be anyone, as so many say) to have an A with. No, he did not have an A with anyone, it was her in those circumstances.

And he has never once painted himself as a victim. If he did, I think that would have angered me. When someone is truly remorseful, truly sorry for what they have done, they will not paint themselves as a victim. Yet, still, he and I know what she did and how she did it, and how he fell for the ego stroking. The point here is, and the only reason that I R'ed with my H is because he is remorseful. He gets it. He learned his lesson and gives me every reason to believe no matter what his state of mind, no matter how much somebody attempts to groom or manipulate he won't fall for it. In fact he has learned a lot and learned how to recognize those signs long before it might become a slippery slope. That is the reason I R'ed with my H, not because I feel he was victimized by the whore.

I also said in a previous post that it matters to me which one is the initial pursurer (in cases where it was not necessarily mutual at first). It just does and is one of those details that makes me judge whichever one "went looking for it" a bit more harshly than the one who allowed themselves to fall for it.


I have always believed that indifference is the goal towards the OW. Is that compatible with continued hatred/anger? I am not saying its not, just wondering how it is managed?
I also say I hate the whore. Part of it started with pure jealousy. At the time of anger at my H, I was also like most of us, I suppose in wondering what the hell does she have that I don't have? I wanted to believe she was a horrible person, but at first, I was not really sure she was! It was not until I "investigated" and found out more about her that I determined she truly is a low life trailer trash whore, probably a drunk, and definitely a high school dropout. Not to mention someone who would chase a married man the way she did.

I say I hate her but this is not the kind of hate that is consuming. I don't plot revenge and I suppose in reality it is more like indifference. But I can tell you I would take pleasure in hearing more bad things about her, even now, 7 years out and happily R'ed with my H. I take pleasure in the fact the only name she has is "Whore." Is that indifference, hatred, or neither? To me, hating someone, anyone just doesn't have anything to do with my day to day interactions, love and intimacy in my marriage. Maybe most everything in my life is compartmentalized, but not in a contradictoray way. They are separate things and I don't even see why it would be considered imcompatible or have much to do with R'ing in my M. Just my perspective here.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 6:41 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


Posts: 5682 | Registered: Apr 2006
sailorgirl
Member
Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

I wanted to add that OW stalked fWH after d-day, repeatedly threatened to hurt herself if he wouldn't see her, had her mother contact him to beg him to go to her, had coworkers calling him, tried to physically prevent him from leaving when she found him in the parking lot at work, etc. (he remained completely NC, and when she showed up he would only say, "I'm going home.")

Her behavior would be wrong and unhealthy whether he was married or not. As would the manipulation she used throughout their "relationship".

fWH's is at fault for being too weak to withstand her tactics. Her tactics were never sexual or seductive, by the way. Instead she elicited pity and sorrow and churned up all the pain fWH had because no one ever rescued him as a hurting child.

OW is responsible for demanding that someone else fill the emptiness inside her (literally and figuratively).


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
trumanshow
Member
Member # 25624
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

My disgust for the OW and my disgust for WH are not dependent on each other-it's separate.

Marriage is not just a romantic pairing-it is a legal and sociatal contract as well. If our WS let the AP in our house and they shot us you can bet they both would be held responsible. This is just as damaging and there are laws against it-they're just not enforced because the damage is not obvious to others.

I haven't formally promised anyone I won't assault them but it's not only governed by laws-it's part of being a healthy person and citizen. Interfere with and destroy any other contract and see what happens-even if one of the partners aided the outsider.

What people forget about our freedoms is the constitution states we have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as long as it doesn't interfere with another's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I'd say the AP assisted with the interfering and actions have consequences.

If the poor widdle AP receives scorn, etc from the BS I think they got off easy

[This message edited by trumanshow at 8:01 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


Your ex wanting to be friends is like asking a kidnapper to stay in touch when they let you go.

The type of fierce loyalty that I possess made me incapable of comprehending the level of disloyalty that he possessed


Posts: 1742 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Charlotte, NC
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 8:17 AM, September 29th (Sunday)

Thank you Trumanshow for expressing what I was thinking.


BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
self-rescuer
Member
Member # 35059
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

This is such an interesting and provocative thread.

I can only speak for my own experience and my own journey into the hell that is infidelity.

The OW had been in our home. My XH thought she would be a good mentor for our then 14 yr old daughter. He fostered a relationship between OW and DD for the 5 yrs of the PA. OW took my daughter to leadership conferences and would visit my daughter her freshman year college. DD knew about the affair and confronted her dad before I knew he was cheating.

In the beginning I held the OW responsible on many many many levels. The scope of her involvement with our family was too broad. Hating her and blaming her was natural. It was primal.

We are mammals and to be excluded from the pack or the tribe or the community equals death.

But my feelings began to morph as I worked hard to heal. The blame shifted (and I am speaking of my personal experience only) gradually to my XH. And now, 2 yrs out, all the blame rests exclusively on his shoulders. He was in contract with me - legally, spiritually and culturally as he would always declare the importance of monogamy.

OW owed me human decency and an understanding of universal sisterhood. But she did not sign nor swear anything to me. I do not hold her at fault. She is not to blame.

No spell was cast.

That being said - I am not evolved enough to wish her well. Truth is, I wish her a lifetime of misery. And as shallow as this sounds : one of the most glorious days of my life was when she was subpoenaed for our court date. She was fucking terrified and mortified but I thought so fitting for the woman who XH had been banging 5+ yrs.

But even given my distain for her it is XH who deserves responsibility. 100% responsibility rests on that man. He tore apart our sweet family. He knew my absolute devotion to him. He knew the one thing I could not bear was for him to be in love with another.

He was however, shocked that my not bearing the betrayal would not result in me begging and contorting to reconcile. My reaction was to kick his self absorbed ass out of this precious little cottage.

So, again, I am speaking only of my situation and healing path. But I would shout from the rooftop that it wasn't his slunt (thanks SI for giving me a whole new language!!!) that blew apart my world. It was the man who vowed to stay with me forever. The affair was entirely his fault.


BW 53
WXH 55
married 26 yrs
D-Day 9-15-11

Divorce final 3-13-13

Just trust yourself, then you will know how to live.
~ Goethe


Posts: 490 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: the south
RightTrack
Member
Member # 36976
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

I remain full of hate for OW while my feelings towards WH shift from anger to pity to love. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that I see what my WH is going through. I have seen him make remarkable changes in the past year and watched him get more grey hair, lose his perfect vision, gain weight; all things I know are consequences of his guilt. I don't know anything about her. I assume that she's just the same selfish bitch that she was during their affair. Maybe she's somewhere doing the work and making amends to her BS. I don't care enough to find out so I keep her in the same place she was in the month after DDAy.

Posts: 602 | Registered: Sep 2012
MC_Jack
Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, September 29th (Sunday)

I agree with self-rescuer. At first I blamed the OM - in a way of 'rescuing' my WW. Now, I put the whole thing on her. She has worked to save the marriage, so we are working to save the marriage. She has always taken the blame. The only thing is I wish she would see that a lot of the negative crap in her head that drove the A forward was there previously for a long time and made for a suboptimal marriage partner that I suffered with.

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 6:20 PM, September 29th (Sunday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 843 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
leftoolate
Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 3:08 AM, September 30th (Monday)

I am a married woman who had an affair with a married man. Had he been single, I wouldn't have helped hurt his wife and children - but the damage to my husband and children would have been the same. He was the other man. If it hadn't been him, it would have been some other guy, at some other time, and the damage would still have been done. That's on me.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, I own my actions, not his. He was my tool in this betrayal. I also own my role as a tool in the betrayal of his wife.

The tools of an affair are indispensible to the betrayal, but they are not the problem that needs to be solved. Without the other man/woman, this affair wouldn't have happened, but there are plenty of others to use in betrayal.

In order to heal and help heal, the wayward spouse needs to learn how to use an entirely different toolkit. Change is key, and I do believe it's possible.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 4:12 AM, September 30th (Monday)

It could be argued that he had a responsibility to be a decent human being and, thereby, not engage in an affair with a married woman. But that, to me, is different than saying he had an equal share of responsibility for me upholding the marriage vows that I freely made with my XH.

Well, I actually agree with this, but I don't see too many wording this to say they have an equal share in the responsibility to the marriage vows. I have forgiven my H and despise the OW, and do blame her for whoring after my H right after his mother and DD died. Does this seem contradictory to what I just said? I don't think so.

Because my H is remorseful and has done everything humanly possible to show me he can be a good H to me. I reserve the right to forgive my H even if he did something that was against our marriage vows.

And the whore has nothing to do with my marriage, especially at this point in my life. I should be completely indifferent according to some. But I'm not really completley indifferent to people that I consider horrible human beings. She is not the only person who has done something terrible that has impacted me or my family or friends in negative ways. I reserve the right to despise people that I consider horrible people including that filthy whore and it does not matter if she had any "responsibility" toward my M, or not.

I tend to think that most people who were "preyed upon" are full of shoot and giving the BS what they want to hear.
For me, this would defintely depend on what else I knew about the situation, other than what my spouse told me.

In fact my H never once made himself out to be a victim of the whore and if he had, I believe that would have angred me. I did my own investigation to try to put the pieces together. It became clear to me that she purposesly whored after after him, and did it when he was at his lowest points ever in life. And she tried to rent an apartment from me under false pretenses, before I knew about the A. Even if this was not my own marriage that was impacted, I would hate everything about that trailer trash piece of low life garbage.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 4:15 AM, September 30th (Monday)]


Posts: 5682 | Registered: Apr 2006
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 5:32 AM, September 30th (Monday)

I really struggle to wrap my head around this mindset.

I honestly would like to gain some sort of understanding of it, but have failed to do so after 4 years.

And I think.... I just figured out what bothers me about me about i the idea that just because the AP is a "variable" or that they are not the source of my hurt as much as my FWH. That they owed me nothing, that I should be indifferent.

It doesn't answer the question for anyone else...it just sorted out and pinpointed the source of my current frustration, surrounding this topic.

Since when do the inflictors of a wound decide how to divvy up, who is responsible to whom for which part of the damage?

They are all part of the whole flood... that swept into my life. They were not individual raindrops, but all a part of the whole that came together as one. The reasons, the why's don't matter. The damage is the same.
The raindrops do not get to decide that because they did not hit my house directly, that they were not a part of the flood that swept away my home.
That flood created more that only ONE problem.

The damage left behind is now mine to clean up, so I must be the one to decide how I divvy up the responsibility, so that I might be able build my house back up better, and reinforce any areas of weakness. This is such an individual process that the problem comes in when other people begin to tell us how and what our problem should or should not be. I know what the problem is for me. And yes, MOWs are the key component in it. My basic trust in the sisterhood of female friendship has been undermined, just as the trust within my M was undermined by my FWH.

I am not operating on the premise that the A caused one problem...it caused many. And they all must be dealt with one at a time.


And that has been the crux of that argument for me.
I can put this sucker to rest now, as I know I can't change minds, nor do I seek to do so.
Thanks for this topic at just the right time.
That was really like the lifting of a veil for me!

Sorry for the length of that response, anyone who bothered reading my response at all, thanks for taking the time.


BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
leftoolate
Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 5:51 AM, September 30th (Monday)

Since when do the inflictors of a wound decide how to divvy up, who is responsible to whom for which part of the damage?

I'm sorry, refuz2bavictim, I didn't mean to tell you (or anyone) what your problems are. I should have been more clear.

Of course the affair person playes a part in the betrayal, in the flood that swept ayay your home. And of course (sadly) it's up to you to decide what you need to build up your house and your life. I sincerely hope you don't need anything from any affair person to do do that.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 6:12 AM, September 30th (Monday)

Lefttoolate,
I don't think you were telling me what my problems are, that's for me to do. I think that becomes the/my perception when I see that argument. The whole AP being some unknown variable as though she was insignificant, yet I am cleaning up some of the mess she/they left me.

I feel quite good about pinpointing the source of my irritation, which I accept as being entirely self generated. I probably left off two key words before that quote..."I feel" So please forgive my lack of clarity!

Anyway your post did help me pinpoint it, and not in a negative way, at least for me, so thank you for that! I'm in a decent place. And when something my stirs up discomfort within me, I like to find out what about my own thoughts causes that.

I was doing some thinking aloud. Trying to understand why I have failed to wrap my head around that thought, which many people share.

I'm still rebuilding my house room by room and the female friendship part couldn't really be dealt with in the early stages. Triage.
I need to understand my role. Does that make sense? I need to understand my part in the dynamic with these women, so that I don't repeat the same pattern in the future. That requires me to examine the past, find the areas that caused me to overlook some major issues.

Peace to you!



BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
sohowamI
Member
Member # 36671
Default  Posted: 6:46 AM, September 30th (Monday)

ALL of the women with whom my WS has had affairs knew that he was married. One of them thought that he was going to go off into the wide blue yonder with her. She was SO 'hurt' when he decided that actually she wasn't the one for him and that the woman he was married to was.

One of the others, with whom he had a twelve year affair, wanted to have children with him and [to some extent] manipulated him so that indeed, she did! Of course he was as guilty as her. He knew that unprotected sex leads to pregnancy but in his 'fog of love' he couldn't possibly believe that she could 'lie' to him! Unbelievable. As I said to him: 'You lie. You've lied to me all these years. She's lying. She's been lying to her husband all these years. Why wouldn't she lie to you?'

The men who have affairs are guilty, likewise the women. Anyone who oversteps the boundaries and starts any kind of intimate relationship other than with the partner that they have sworn their loyalty to is guilty.

As one of the other parties have said here on this thread, you sound like an OW yourself and doth protest too much. I have no sympathy whatsoever for ANY OWs and, as far as I am concerned, ALL of the women who have infiltrated my marriage can rot in hell... [That doesn't mean that I forgive my WS. He's working very hard and, to that end, I have to give him some credence but he's on a very short lead...]


WS had two LTAs of 10 years and 12 years; further 8/9 affairs; EAs, 2 OC. Looks horrific but he is fully immersed in trying to find the 'broken.' It's on-going and painful. If there's a blue sky and sunshine, then it's a good day.

Posts: 164 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: UK
SI Staff
Moderator
Member # 10
Default  Posted: 8:16 AM, September 30th (Monday)

Safeguard, since you have been on the site it appears you've choosen to ignore your thread and those that took the time to reply.

We will lock this up but in the future please have the courtesy to close out your own thread.


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
Topic Posts: 127