SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
Reconciliation
User Topic: Why I think not knowing "why" is crap
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

My WH says "I don't know why I did this."

Bull crap.

You KNEW what was in your head the moment you chose to do this. You KNEW what went through your mind before you stuck it in.

Don't give me the bullshit answers of "I don't know why...I have to see a therapist first." To me I feel like the only reason he says that is that he wants a counselor to be able to give him an answer so he can regurgitate it right back out again. Then he doesn't have to tell me what was in his head while he was putting that condom on ...if he really did. I feel, some days, like he is a liar and an asshole and I have to go to MC today with him for more lies.

[This message edited by topperoff22 at 5:21 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
easiersaid
Member
Member # 38398
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I'm about 8 months out now, and if you read my profile you'll see that my WH has been cheating on me off and on during our entire relationship. With that in mind, and not knowing your whole situation, let me suggest this: maybe he is still too deep in the fog to know. Maybe he is just entirely broken, from things he isn't really aware of, and can't give you one "why". Maybe, as was the case with my WH, the habits of lying and hiding were ingrained in him at an early age, and just feel normal. Maybe he thought he was too smart to get caught.

These last 8 months have taught me that there are more "whys" than their are grains of sand in the universe. At the end of the day, for me anyway, I've come up with my own "whys"...none of which have a damn thing to do with me. What I am focused on now is the "how"...how does he plan to keep this from happening ever again? How does he plan to show his remorse, every minute of every day?

It takes awhile to move past the "why". If you don't ever get it from him, you'll figure it out for yourself eventually. I can just tell you that it wasn't and isn't you.

Good luck.


Me: BS, 40 yrs
Him: WS, 41 yrs (4 PA over 14 yrs, 2 ONS, 2 current PA of 3 months and 2 yrs)
Two small children
Married 17 years
D-day: 1/26/13

Posts: 108 | Registered: Feb 2013
Dallas2
Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

The WS knows WHY they did it. I don't think as a BS any reason (WHY) that is given for betrayal is ever enough.

I agree with easiersaid. How will they prevent themselves from doing it again.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
Beemer
Member
Member # 38499
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

This is something that really gets under my skin when I see it... I read the wayward forums quite a bit and I always see posts about "find your why" and all that BS - no disrespect meant to any waywards who may read this but the bottom line is: because you wanted to.

You can talk about FOO issues and abandonment and whatever else you wanna say contributed to your choice to cheat - but at the end of the day, you did it because you wanted to. No one held a gun to your head, no one forced you to enter into a sexual or emotional relationship with someone other than your spouse - you did it because you wanted to.

There is no other 'why' that matters...


BW - Me (33)
FWH - Him (34)
Married - 8years
D-Day - 06/06/12
Status - Trying...things are good :)

Posts: 77 | Registered: Feb 2013
HardenMyHeart
Member
Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

My WH says "I don't know why I did this."
Bull crap.

The WS may not actually know "why" in the sense that you are looking for. Our MC told me that the WS may never know why and I believe it. As a result, I went digging for my own answers.

To get to the point where you really understand why, you need an understanding of the psychology of affairs, as well as a better understanding of your WH's emotional needs. The why(s) can be found by breaking down the following areas:

1. Assuming your WH believes infidelity is wrong, then why did he violate his own moral beliefs. In other words, what contributed to the breaking down of his own personal boundaries. Usually the problem points back to FOO issues.

2. Which emotional needs were going unmet in his life? Everyone is motivated by the same two desires; to be happy and to avoid suffering. I'm not sure about your relationship, but many affairs are driven by a strong need for admiration (some call this external validation). Sometimes an affair is motivated by just the need for sexual fulfillment (the fantasy and excitement caused by the risk of doing something forbidden).

3. Poor emotional intimacy in the marriage (i.e. being connected). For some reason your WH did not feel comfortable discussing his needs and dissatisfaction with you. With true emotional intimacy, your spouse would have come to you first; letting you know there was an issue, instead of keeping it a secret. Since you are calling him "a liar and an asshole", this tells me that he may feel a need to keep secrets for fear of being judged and/or making you upset.

So sorry for what you are going through.

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 10:12 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Inner peace begins the moment you choose not to allow another person or event to control your emotions.


Posts: 5695 | Registered: Aug 2007
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

No disrespect meant to any BS's that read this, I have always found it interesting that a BS could know what a WS's why is. Unless of course they have been there themselves.

Topper, it took me two years to fully uncover what led me to make the decisions that I did. I am glad that my H was willing to wait for my answers.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
easiersaid
Member
Member # 38398
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Hardened, I agree with most except the emotional intimacy in the marriage part. I found out my WH cheated on every person he was with. Of course, I didn't know this going into our marriage, or I wouldn't have married him.

He has emotional intimacy problems with everyone, first and foremost with himself.


Me: BS, 40 yrs
Him: WS, 41 yrs (4 PA over 14 yrs, 2 ONS, 2 current PA of 3 months and 2 yrs)
Two small children
Married 17 years
D-day: 1/26/13

Posts: 108 | Registered: Feb 2013
Beemer
Member
Member # 38499
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Tired Girl - are you saying that you were forced? And that you didn't want to have an affair?


BW - Me (33)
FWH - Him (34)
Married - 8years
D-Day - 06/06/12
Status - Trying...things are good :)

Posts: 77 | Registered: Feb 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

It was far more complicated than I just wanted to. If you knew my story then you would know that.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Beemer
Member
Member # 38499
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I'm not trying to start a battle with you... I'm just saying that if you (or any wayward) didn't "want to" on some level - it wouldn't have happened...


BW - Me (33)
FWH - Him (34)
Married - 8years
D-Day - 06/06/12
Status - Trying...things are good :)

Posts: 77 | Registered: Feb 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

You can't boil everything that happens with a WS that ends up with them making these horrible choices to betray themselves and their spouses to "they wanted to".


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
HardenMyHeart
Member
Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I have always found it interesting that a BS could know what a WS's why is. Unless of course they have been there themselves.

I disagree. I was able to learn the whys behind my FWW's affair before she did (see my response above). The problem for the BS is that they just don't have the context for understanding the dynamics of the affair. In my case, I was not understanding our relationship from my wife's point of view. It was during R when I finally began to understand the motivations that lead up to an affair, and what makes a good relationship. Once I clearly understood these things, the pre-affair picture began to emerge, and I was able to understand why my wife made the poor choices that she did.

Was this helpful for R? You bet it was. I now make sure her emotional needs are being met. Not only do I have a clear understanding of her needs, but I make sure they are being met. I also make sure we have a true emotional intimacy by taking the time to listen to her hopes, dreams, and fears without judgment.


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Inner peace begins the moment you choose not to allow another person or event to control your emotions.


Posts: 5695 | Registered: Aug 2007
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I agree with at least a little bit of all the responses you have received here topperoff22. (Some more than others. )

I do believe that for the most part the answer to the "why" is because the WS's were selfish and they wanted to.

Your d-day is very recent. As tired girl has pointed out, it can take a long time for the WS to come to an understanding of their "why's".

I also feel it is pretty normal for you to be calling your WH an asshole and a liar at this point. I think it is great that your WH is going to go to IC. Most IC's aren't going to "give" their client an "answer". They will help their client find the answer. A good IC.

In fact, I have been frustrated sometimes when going to IC as I thought they would give me the "answer". I was taken aback when they expected me to do some digging and find the answer within myself. They keep me on track and give me feedback on my "answers" and whether or not I need to do some more digging.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I agree that it is not black and white, there is a whole lot of gray that goes on for WS's to manipulate things around in their head to justify their actions, and commit an A.

I also agree that "I don't know" is NOT an acceptable answer. It takes time, and lot of self review, actualization, and honesty to find the real why. Not the I was lonely, I didn't feel needed blah blah blah, but the answer to the WHY did you need to feel needed, WHY were you lonely in your marriage? THAT's the stuff that gets to the core of it, and allows a WS to really start the work of fixing, healing and improving themselves.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8722 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
HardenMyHeart
Member
Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Hardened, I agree with most except the emotional intimacy in the marriage part.

This does not mean the BS is at fault, it just means that the WS has difficulty communicating for whatever reason. One of the challenges in a marriage is to break through this barrier. Pre-affair, my wife did not communicate her feelings and kept up walls. It wasn't just me, it was with everyone. During R I learned to listen without judgment. I mean really listen; in a way that she finally opened up. I now have a different understanding of who she is and what to expect. It has helped tremendously with trust and feeling confident I will not have to deal with another affair in the future.


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Inner peace begins the moment you choose not to allow another person or event to control your emotions.


Posts: 5695 | Registered: Aug 2007
womaninflux
Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I agree with everything said and will add that it's not a black and white thing, which is so hard to accept. If you are the BS, you see it in right/wrong terms. But it really is a complex, multi-layered situation. Many WS cheat because they are emotionally disconnected not only in the marriage but also in life in general. They've never formed the kind of emotional attachments necessary and have been trying to fill the void their entire life in one way or another. The next layer down is that they are chronically depressed because of this. Also, a lot of people who engage in an affair are insecure. Many have witnessed or suffered some sort of trauma in their personal life and it was never addressed in a helpful/healthy way and they have carried this pain with them for a long time and that brought on the depression.

It's usually not a simple answer. Have some patience. I know that is not what you want to hear ( not what I want to hear, either!) but it really is true. Time is going to peel back the layers for you and your WS.


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 910 | Registered: Jun 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

SMS,

You know I think your great, but my reasons did not start nor end there.

It took a long time for me to be able to voice what was wrong, and to change myself. I blamed the marriage for a bit, and then I started looking at me. That was when the answers started coming.

Your H probably doesn't know right now, but he can tell you that he is working hard to figure it out and that he will share everything he learns along the way.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Since you are calling him "a liar and an asshole", this tells me that he feels a strong need to keep secrets for fear of being judged and/or making you upset.
Although I feel it is normal at this stage for you to be calling your WH these names, it really isn't going to help you to reconcile.

I had a notebook that I used to call my fWH names, to vent. I also had SI to vent, rant and rave about fWH. Calling him all kinds of awful names. I needed to do this. However, FWH didn't need to hear it. He was trying. He was remorseful. As much as we BS's need to feel safe, so do the WS's. Even though they were the ones that created this mess that made everyone feel unsafe, our marriages need to be the "soft place to fall" for both spouses.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
sudra
Member
Member # 30143
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Poor emotional intimacy in the marriage (i.e. being connected). For some reason your WH did not feel comfortable discussing his needs and dissatisfaction with you. With true emotional intimacy, your spouse would have come to you first; letting you know there was an issue, instead of keeping it a secret. Since you are calling him "a liar and an asshole", this tells me that he feels a strong need to keep secrets for fear of being judged and/or making you upset.

Ouch!!!!!

I think the intimacy problem may be in the marriage, but for sure it is in the WS.

And to say that her husband's need to keep secrets is her fault... You don't even know if this pre-dates his affair. It could be the RESULT of his affair.

I truly, truly and strongly believe that a person has an affair because S/HE is broken, not because the marriage is broken.


Me (BW) (55), Him(SAWH) (58)
Married 22 years, 1 son (19), 1 stepdaughter (27)
DDay #1 January 2004
DDay #2 7-27-2010 7 month EA/PA (became "engaged" to OW before he told me he wanted a divorce)
Working on R

Posts: 1499 | Registered: Nov 2010
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I truly, truly and strongly believe that a person has an affair because S/HE is broken, not because the marriage is broken
.

I believe the WS is always at fault for making the decision, but there are many M's that are broken. Some that should not be repaired.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I think you're great, TG, too. I have learned a lot from you.

I feel that for some WS's being selfish (and just wanting to) is the answer. I also feel for many WS's that there is more to it than that.

I can remember screaming at my FWH (he was just WS then) that I couldn't believe that he was just that fucking shallow. Turns out, when it came to this, yeah, he was.

I have spent a long time beating FWH up because his answers weren't deeper. Because of SI, I kept thinking that there had to be more. I would badger fWH constantly to give me the real "why". It all came back to him being selfish. I mean, of course, there was FoO issues, bad coping skills, poor self esteem, etc. It still all came back to him being selfish.

In fact, there was a day when it all came crashing down on me. I called our MC and I was hysterical. I had just realized how very selfish my FWH was. I called MC because I didn't think there was a cure for such supreme selfishness. She calmed me down. Told me that she didn't feel MisterSister was NPD and in that case, yes, people can change their selfish behaviour.

More important to me than the "why" is FWH changing all his behaviour that let him believe that having an affair was okay.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Dallas2
Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I wonder if a WS has a hard time facing the reality of what they did? I know my FWH would prefer never to bring up any part of his A.

I am not sure all WS are broken. I do think that if the why is part of being broken is helps a BS accept it.

I have read many books as probably most BS's have. I still think the major reason why is because the WS wanted to. Any other reason why is justification on their part.

Regardless Why- the fact my H had an A still pisses me off.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I haven't read through all the responses yet, but I hope to get to them after our counseling session. Looks like some great responses that will have me thinking a lot today!

Skimming through it looks like I may have started some arguments. I hope they clear up here....I'll have to see when I read later.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
ionlytalkedtoher
Member
Member # 39802
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I used to want to know the whys...and there are answers to whys I guess...There are about 10 reasons that I believe led to my H's affair. But like someone above me said--those reasons don't matter. In the end the reason is because they selfishly chose to thats why. No one made him chose to have an affair, He just did. I was there the whole time as well and I DID NOT chose to have an affair.

Reasons such as emotional intimacy etc--they aren't whys. If there was a problem then the couple should have could have either a. divorced, b. fixed the problemn though counselling.

Option C...the affair is always the wrong chose made out of complete selfishness. It was a choice. A decision to purposely and maliciously hurt their marriage. On purpose.


Posts: 264 | Registered: Jul 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I may have started some arguments.
We don't have arguments, we have lively debates here at SI. As long as it is done respectfully I enjoy a good debate/discussion. I get so many nuggets of wisdom out of it.
I am not sure all WS are broken.
Gawd, that just pisses FWH off royally when I say he was broken. He doesn't agree at all about being broken. However, some of his thought processes were definitely broken.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Some great answers here (hardenmyheart in particular.) I find it simplistic and reductionistic to simple wave off the motivations as "because they wanted to." No offense, but "Duh."

The question is, why did they want to, and, by extension, how/what can they learn so they don't want to again?


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2065 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I find it simplistic and reductionistic to simple wave off the motivations as "because they wanted to." No offense, but "Duh."
Offense taken. We have spent 3 1/2 years on this. To tell me we simply "waved it off" is offensive. Duh!


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Still not through all the comments yet, but calling my husband a liar and an asshole is just my feelings at the moment. If you knew his history of lies, you'd get it, but don't feel that way all the time. I'm not going to feel guilty for writing that right now.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
easiersaid
Member
Member # 38398
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Many WS cheat because they are emotionally disconnected not only in the marriage but also in life in general. They've never formed the kind of emotional attachments necessary and have been trying to fill the void their entire life in one way or another. The next layer down is that they are chronically depressed because of this. Also, a lot of people who engage in an affair are insecure.

I agree completely with this, at least in my situation. It doesn't excuse it, but for me, it has helped me move to the "what's next" phase.


Me: BS, 40 yrs
Him: WS, 41 yrs (4 PA over 14 yrs, 2 ONS, 2 current PA of 3 months and 2 yrs)
Two small children
Married 17 years
D-day: 1/26/13

Posts: 108 | Registered: Feb 2013
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I'd bet a whole lot that WSes cheat to avoid facing their own pain. Right - this is my not so new hobby horse. In that sense, they are broken, but eminently fixable.
**************************
topper, I suggest you work out a process with your H that allows him to defer answering a few questions until you're in an MC session or after he's discussed the Q in IC.

A number of times very early on, I realized I was a lot better off if I allowed my W to do that.

If you're asking difficult questions, I think it's eminently reasonable for the WS to want support from MC to be available when she answers. If the question cuts deep into the WS's psyche, I think there are many ways of answering the Q, and I think it's eminently reasonable for the WS to want to examine the Q in an IC session before answering.

There a number of key elements that made this approach work. First, my W didn't do this often. Second, instead of saying 'I don't remember', she just said she wanted to answer in MC or after IC. ('IDR' was supposed to be reserved for times when she really didn't remember.) Third, the Qs actually got addressed in the next MC or IC session.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10384 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
cantaccept
Member
Member # 37451
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I really have no clue what his why is yet.

I do have my theories though, from the little that I have observed and learned from him.

He was never that vested in the marriage.

He was never vulnerable to anyone, held everything inside, saw it as weakness.

He became unhappy he dealt with it by running.

He used alcohol or drugs to stuff the emotions.

Uncomfortable feelings were expressed through anger, blameshifting.

Never held himself accountable for his actions or examined his life or choices.

I am a bit angry today, (understatement), so take that into consideration regarding the above.


"So often times it happens, that we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key"

I would now like to be known as Can!

dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
wh boots5050
attempted R, it was all a lie

Divor


Posts: 1428 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Connecticut
cs2384
Member
Member # 34873
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I know that the BS's are hurt.

I did not have an affair because I wanted to. My marriage was garbage. My BH husband thought it was awesome. He was engaging in very hurtful behaviors that I had asked him over and over to stop. He didn't think it was a problem. I didn't vent realize how much of a problem it was until after the affair. Our marriage was broken. Now the A is over. And we're both extremely hurt. I was able to figure out why I did it. And it has helped me so much. Everyone's "why" is different. Now as my husband sometimes still engages in the hurtful behavior I don't feel sorry for me. I stand up for me and place my boundaries. Relationships are so complicated. My BH and I are so different.i get frustrated as why he does the hurtful things he does in our marriage. But it's for him to figure out why. I, as a wayward, can't even begin to describe the amount of pain and misery I was in to be in a spot to do the destructive things I've done. And coming out of that hole, especially after an affair, is the most difficult thing. So, the why is important. But your why is different than they're why. If they're truly remorseful I guarantee they are in pain.


WW--me 28
BH--32
Married ten years
Two daughters 7 and 8
In recovery

Posts: 88 | Registered: Feb 2012
struggling3
Member
Member # 34671
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I agree with you sistermilkshake...I also took offense. We also have looked hard...worked hard...both in IC and MC...and it comes down to "he wanted to", "he was selfish", "he has shitty boundaries" of course boundaries were not really ever discussed in depth, I just thought they were understood. Not every person is exactly the same. There are many, many similarities in all of our stories. We still are not all wired exactly the same.


Me - BS 55
H - WS 57/very remorseful and supportive
Kids 29, 26, 22
D-Day 8-5-11
discovered 4 month long EA
R - slow and steady but very optimistic

Posts: 319 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Quotin you SM:

"mean, of course, there was FoO issues, bad coping skills, poor self esteem, etc. It still all came back to him being selfish.

That is significantly more than "just wanting to."

My dog jumps on me just because he wants to. Actually, now that I think about it, even he probably has more thought processes about it than that. People are motivated by more than sheer Id-impulse. It sounds like you know that.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2065 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Bottom line, bionicgal, is he wanted to. Rather then deal with anything else, he wanted to have an affair to cover up his bad feelings and get the instant gratification good feelings he could get from the affair. The selfish way for him to feel better and damn anyone else's feelings (including AP's, but who cares).

eta: to fix bionicgal's name.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:17 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
suposd2btheonly1
Member
Member # 40753
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I full agree with you topper!

My WH says the same shit. But mine didn't use a condom. His excuse was well I just had that vasectomy so she's not pregnant. What the f*ck? Thanks for respecting me enough to protect me from STDs. Thing is he hadn't even been in yet to get his sperm tested!

Before all this he was making comments like "I think that vasectomy killed my manhood". I almost wonder if his A was to validate he was still a man. And even tho he says the worthless sex with her was "eh", he just really liked that she was giving him the attention he 'needed I still think he's a liar.

As my guy friends say "you don't go back for more bad pussy", I believe it. I wouldn't carry on an A for bad dick. Tell your lies to someone else!

WH tells me that she had more hair on her ass than her head...even if he's just saying that to make me feel better he shouldn't even know that! Not unless she just told everyone while hanging out around the water cooler.

I don't know if I will ever know the "why" for having an A but it is most definitely something that I would like to know.

[This message edited by suposd2btheonly1 at 6:18 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me: BW 31
Him: WH 30
OW: 22yo whore who is still planning her wedding
Married 3yrs, together 5
4 kids, all boys 14, 11, 4 and 8mos...I hope like hell they don't hurt someone the way he hurt their mama
Dday: August 9, 2013
S, until his head

Posts: 206 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Although I feel it is normal at this stage for you to be calling your WH these names, it really isn't going to help you to reconcile.
I had a notebook that I used to call my fWH names, to vent. I also had SI to vent, rant and rave about fWH. Calling him all kinds of awful names. I needed to do this. However, FWH didn't need to hear it. He was trying. He was remorseful. As much as we BS's need to feel safe, so do the WS's. Even though they were the ones that created this mess that made everyone feel unsafe, our marriages need to be the "soft place to fall" for both spouses.

True and it is why I don't actually say that stuff to him anymore....only on here and in my journal. Great points!


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Many WS cheat because they are emotionally disconnected not only in the marriage but also in life in general. They've never formed the kind of emotional attachments necessary and have been trying to fill the void their entire life in one way or another. The next layer down is that they are chronically depressed because of this. Also, a lot of people who engage in an affair are insecure.

I also agree with this and see it in my WH. We had a great MC session today and some of this even came out.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 5:24 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Poor emotional intimacy in the marriage (i.e. being connected). For some reason your WH did not feel comfortable discussing his needs and dissatisfaction with you. With true emotional intimacy, your spouse would have come to you first; letting you know there was an issue, instead of keeping it a secret. Since you are calling him "a liar and an asshole", this tells me that he feels a strong need to keep secrets for fear of being judged and/or making you upset.
You are kidding correct? You act like I call him that all the time and not after the A. You have no idea how kind I have always been in our marriage. Perfect? No...but I have rarely, if ever, sworn at him. He needed to be a man and fess up the affair. I dragged every ounce of information out of him about this affair because he wanted to protect himself from looking bad (as far as I can tell from this point) or maybe because he did not want to hurt me. Either way, it is wrong to make me sound like some kind of evil bitch who he was afraid of.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
heartache101
Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Topper
I call my Fws an asshole all the time.
I call it like it i see it! to his face if he is bein one i tell him! nothing wrong with speaking the truth!
Just dont want to call names. KWIM?


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3188 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Since you are calling him "a liar and an asshole", this tells me that he may feel a need to keep secrets for fear of being judged and/or making you upset.

I told my husband I had sex with two guys. I knew he'd be upset.
Integrity: telling the truth, letting go of the outcome.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5286 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:28 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I think the search for "why" is eminently more important than the destination of why.

Yes, "wanted to" is a significant component. It's a non-starter without the "wanted to". Where it goes from there -- where that "wanted to" comes from -- is going to be unique to the WS. Figuring that out is some important shit. I will disagree mildly with TG (which doesn't happen often), in that I think many BS's do seem to have a pretty good handle on some of the contextual why's that their WS will land on. I mean, I'd been around my wife's FOO and knew enough of her personal history at D-Day that putting those pieces together upon reflection wasn't exactly rocket science.

That said, accepting the facts of rocket science and accepting the emotional, self-applicable validity of rocket science are separated by a wide, wide gulf. I don't have to figure out how to emotionally own my entire childhood, cSAB, and subsequent relationship dynamics and reinterpret them in light of subsequent knowledge. They're just the facts of my wife's experience to me. They're not vital to me. They're not formative for me. They're just facts. I don't have any work to do to accept, inculcate, or reinterpret them.

That's where the work is.

By the same token, since that work isn't my work...and since I'm not the one who has to do any reinterpreting of my entire formative process to make sense of the A, the destination why's don't really matter. Could be FOO, could be cSAB, could be middle child syndrome, mid-life crisis, mental illness, whatever. Doesn't matter to me as a BS.

Does. Not. Matter.

Except this: if your goal is to reconcile and/or forgive, knowing the why's and trying to see how those lifetime of hurts made so brittle the soul of your spouse is also your window into empathy, into forgiveness, into acceptance and understanding. Understanding their struggle through the lens of their why's is the seed that grows again into love.

(Or, you know, if punishment is your thing, they're also WMD-class ordnance that has just been placed at your disposal. Your spouse's core why is abandonment issues? I don't think you need a manual to exploit that one. Every self-help book that exists for emerging from trauma also happens to be a tactical manual for exploiting statistically significant weakness patterns. Just depends on how you choose to read it.)

For so many BS's, the problem is that the A was a capstone event for us. It was a reality buster. It feels like the end of a quest for destruction -- a culminating event.

But it's not, and especially not in the case of LTA or serial infidelity. We're so busy trying to interpret everything through the lens of this one gamechanging event...and for the WS, it's just another skirmish in a long-standing war of attrition to come to terms with themselves, to heal some old pain, to cope with the struggles of life with the tools they have at their disposal. If it was a gamechanger for them, if it was a culminating event, that instant came when they crossed the threshold into the A, not on D-Day. The lens the BS is looking through is backwards, retroactive, reductive. It hasn't become something that was woven into the fabric of identity. For the BS, it's a full stop, not just another hesitant footstep along the road to somewhere else where the hurt might stop and the world might start making sense, where the emptiness might get filled and the loneliness quenched.

My wife always says that for every "why", you need to ask "why" again at least five more times to get to the underlying cause. I think she's onto something, and I'm thrilled for her (and for us) that she never stopped digging.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I love you WAL.
(in a Menz way)
Nuff said.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 6:37 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1296 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
mchercheur
Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

During the weeks after Dday, my WH told me "it was the best sex he has ever had."
Of course, since then, he has said he didn't mean it.

But I think that is the real reason. And, he chose his own selfish desires over me & our family.


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1397 | Registered: Dec 2012
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Topper
I call my Fws an asshole all the time.
I call it like it i see it! to his face if he is bein one i tell him! nothing wrong with speaking the truth!
Just dont want to call names. KWIM?

Yes, I do know what you mean, of course....thanks.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
topperoff22
Member
Member # 40762
Default  Posted: 9:08 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Wincing at light....thank you..I want to read over what your wrote a couple more times because it was so well put. Thank you. THis has all given me a lot to think about and if I misunderstood anyone before and got a bit bent out of shape, I do apologize. I'm getting a little over zealous on this whole "I will stand up for myself" mantra I'm doing today.


BS - Me 36
WS - Him 35 (almost 36)
Child: son, 6; just learned one on way
DDAY - July 24, 2013 (thousands spent on ex girlfriend)
DDAY2 -Aug. 3, 2013 (proof he slept with her)
R is slow going after TT for 1 month

Posts: 316 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: US
RidingHealingRd
Member
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 10:08 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

calling my husband a liar and an asshole is just my feelings at the moment. If you knew his history of lies, you'd get it

I totally "got it" the minute I read it. One thing that did not surprise me on Dday was that my WH was a liar...I realized over the course of 25 years of M that I had married a master bullshitter.

The A fallout shook him to his core. Fortunately, he has made a dedicated effort to change all bad behavior including lying. It is for this reason that I no longer call him a "liar and and asshole" ~ That shoe no longer fits.

ETA: I called him an liar and asshole (and much more I might add) for well over 1.5 years during R and we made it through. Nothing was going to silence me....nothing. As I told him, if you don't like it leave ~ he stayed.

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 10:13 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2123 | Registered: Nov 2011
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Red  Posted: 7:23 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Suposd2btheonly1,

The description of this forum is clear.No namecalling or venting. Please posf accordingly.


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 37421 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:39 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I think there are two different Why questions being bundled together. Why an affair, why was your head in that place.

An affair really is black and white to me, and simplistic. Because she wanted to, she could, and that's that. That's a wrongful thought process and needs work and the details in it are part of the process of getting out, but I don't believe it's anything more than that at the core and saying "duh" is fine and all, but what gets lost here is for the vast majority of WS that whole "I was selfish" part never makes it out of their mouths.

Most WS - WS that don't post here - don't accept responsibility for their actions, blame their BS, the 'state of the marriage' or the latest antics of the cat. It's not that they are selfish and wanted to take this escape route, it's because they HAD to, or it was The Only Way To Hit Rock Bottom or My Wife Didn't Suck My Dick Enough or this or that.

As to why a WS head is in that place? How it got to be in the position to decide She Didn't Suck Enough Dick For Me makes an affair a rational response over, say, any other reason? That varies between heads. Poor coping mechanisms due to shitty parents, entitlement due to an idyllic childhood, nanobots infiltrating the frontal lobe, whatever. Those answers are always going to be marginally different because people are always marginally different.

"Because I wanted to" is something that tastes bad when you say it about something you know is wrong. Try it the next time you do something you know is wrong. It feels shameful, because it takes total and complete ownership of the action. From there you can strike out into why you wanted to take off all your clothes on the freeway and throw swedish fish at the vehicle behind you. I dunno maybe you hate Honda vehicles or something.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7488 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Abuse of Swedish Fish will not be tolerated.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

WAL,

I will stand by my statement if the particular BS is going to go with the "WS is just selfish and wanted to." If that is as far as the BS is willing to look with their WS then they don't have a good grasp on what is going on in their WS. Of course if their WS is doing no work at all to get to what was going on with them and fix it, well then maybe they are just selfish and there is nothing more to it.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Dreamland
Member
Member # 40488
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Ok so my question... If we are married 18 yrs and he hadn't cheat before..
My question is WHY NOW.. What happen that you suddenly gave yourself permission to cheat. He didn't tell he was married up front. He doesn't wear a wedding ring and they talked on the bus home everyday for months. You are telling me that his wife and child never came up... He suddenly had big boundary issues...
But why now. What triggered it and how could he throw away his morals.. For what.

I was the one unhappy asking him that we were drifting and he would tell me we have a great marriage. And then I find out you are cheating.

He's mental!!!! And now I am fucked up for ever. We talked about D last night. He said well if I am gone you won't think of the A anymore.
I said FU. I will think about you betraying me for the rest of my life. Asshole..


Me-BS 50 Him-WH 47, DD17
Together since 1993, Married 19 yrs
DDay 3/12,4/12,7/12 EA-PA OW - 25 single husband chasing bastard whore

Posts: 515 | Registered: Aug 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

WAL and SG thanks so much for your post. I agree about the journey to "why" is the important part. Who can judge the "why" being right or wrong?

It isn't like FWH just said "I wanted to and I was selfish" on d-day. It was a process. He did start out blaming the marriage. He has done some very deep introspection. Asking the "why's" of himself.

This is a process that has taken over 3 years to get to a place where we are comfortable in his "why's" and more importantly what he is doing to change all the behaviours and thought processes that allowed him to believe that he was the king of his world and everyone else were merely the peons satisfying his needs.

eta: I like to throw fish-squirrels at passing Hummers and Suburbans, SG, when I get naked alongside the highway.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:55 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 8:59 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I call my Fws an asshole all the time.
I call it like it i see it! to his face if he is bein one i tell him! nothing wrong with speaking the truth!

Just dont want to call names. KWIM?

Huh? How is calling someone an asshole not calling names? And how is it useful in R?

If you call me a name, I'll probably get angry and react.

If you tell me you're angry at me for what I did, I listen and probably will think about making amends.

If you want to R, I strongly recommend you say things like, 'I'm furious that you ....' instead of 'You SOB! You did...!'

Calling someone a name is only an indirect expression of feeling. A name is a thought. A feeling is sad, mad, scared, or glad.

and for the WS, (the A i)s just another skirmish in a long-standing war of attrition to come to terms with themselves, to heal some
old pain, to cope with the struggles of life with the tools they have at their disposal.

That about wraps up my thinking, but I never could find the words until reading this post. Thanks (again), w_a_l.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10384 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Except this: if your goal is to reconcile and/or forgive, knowing the why's and trying to see how those lifetime of hurts made so brittle the soul of your spouse is also your window into empathy, into forgiveness, into acceptance and understanding. Understanding their struggle through the lens of their why's is the seed that grows again into love.

Nice. Should be in the BS R handbook.

Of course if their WS is doing no work at all to get to what was going on with them and fix it, well then maybe they are just selfish and there is nothing more to it.

True for the M or for the R, but for the WS that selfishness is not simple and not the only problem. It is the tip of the berg.

I used to ask my W what her why was/is. I stopped. I just needed to make sure I was good first. I really need to pick that up again and so does she.

People always want to fix this shit all at once, but in reality it takes a lifetime to build the patterns of coping and behavior and I think it follows that the changes will take an equal amount of time (or more) to work them out of your system as well. That sustained effort is the journey to self. We are all on it.

The old adage does come into play here - we are all works in progress. Because we are the "digging" is never really done.

Take care...



Posts: 1428 | Registered: Jan 2012
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

The old adage does come into play here - we are all works in progress. Because we are the "digging" is never really done.

So true.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I'm so so busy at work, and there is so much gold in this thread that I'm going to have to come back and read it later.

But this:

Except this: if your goal is to reconcile and/or forgive, knowing the why's and trying to see how those lifetime of hurts made so brittle the soul of your spouse is also your window into empathy, into forgiveness, into acceptance and understanding. Understanding their struggle through the lens of their why's is the seed that grows again into love.

Yes, yes, yes.

Only if your spouse is also willing to do that digging/understanding. If they're not, trying to figure out their "whys" on your own will just make you insane.

And TG is SO right. It's not simple. If I really thought the only reason my H did what he did was because he was selfish, I'd be crazy to be with him still. There's so much more to what happened, and to him, than that.

It would have been much simpler to accept that he was just selfish and walk away (and if he hadn't woken up it would have been the right choice) but I would have missed out on what we have now. The window into empathy that WAL mentioned has allowed me to not only forgive him but to regain respect and love. If I didn't know where he was coming from, any forgiveness I would have been able to muster would have been false and shallow. And every interaction we had would be bitter around the edges.

Also bear in mind that it takes a long time to have the kind of emotional distance required to get that empathy - you've got to bind up your wounds first.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6810 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

And before anyone gets all touchy-feely and thinks I'm sobbing in a corner over here about the beauty of love flowers and shit:

I simultaneously believe that the BS is free to reject any and every why their WS comes up with. You get to decide for yourself if that reason is sufficient and worth investing in empathy.

That's not a commentary on whether a given WHY is right, wrong, worthy of partial credit, or being reviewed by an examiner who will never be satisfied because all they really want to do is punish.

It just is.

You're allowed to think your WS's why is fucking stupid. And then you're allowed to keep working with them or dismiss them as a mouth-breather unworthy of your time. They're allowed to complain that you dismiss their big WHY because you're just a pissing dickhole.

You know what a WHY is? It's a story. It's a story we tell ourselves about what our lives mean and where the various plot elements we're living arose from.

There aren't any right answers. There aren't any wrong ones. There are only answers that we can agree on or not.

If you can agree enough to make shit work, then you can stay married pretty happily. Otherwise, you're going to be miserable or divorced.

But, you know, they're just stories: the mythology of me. It's not ambrosia dripping from the lips of Olympian gods. It's not Diogenes with his fucking lantern, stabbing light into the darkness.

Just stories...and I'm pretty sure that at the end of it all, nobody has it "right" (whatever that means).

Not right or wrong. Just whatever story you can live with and rectify with your decision to go or stay.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Ok, let's for shits and giggles say that my WS really didn't know why he had an a or what made him have an a with our neighbor (his best friend's wife) ....let's just pretend here.

HOWEVER, if that is the truth of the matter then shouldn't my h have KNOWN that having an a WAS JUST PLAIN WRONG???? My h knew right from wrong he just chose to ignore it. So the bottom line is, even if he really doesn't know why he did this, I am positive that he knew he shouldn't have.


Posts: 2465 | Registered: Sep 2005
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

For me personally, I haven't been as concerned with HL's why's, and I don't know that he was really concerned with mine, we were more concerned with the HOW are you going to make yourself safe so you don't do that again? I think the why is wrapped up in that, peripherally, but for me, the HOW was way more important.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5079 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Oh, of course he knew, black & white, that having the affair was wrong, TO - but how did he JUSTIFY it to himself? What mental gymnastics did he perform to allow himself to go there?


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6810 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Right there, Jana, it is justifications. Are justifications the "why'? No, justifications are justifications, not the "whys". FWH had a mile long list of his justifications.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

And here's the thing - if your spouse is acting like crap, it makes it easy to justify your own bad behavior. I fell into that for a long time. He made it REALLY easy for me to do that, bless him. I remember telling TG that it was, in a way, a lot easier on me when my husband was acting like a turd, because then I could just blame everything on him. When he started acting like a good husband, that's when I had to start looking at my own warts, and oh, that's not so fun. And I think that starts to pertain to another ongoing conversation in another forum. It can devolve into a never-ending cycle of shit-tastic behavior that's not so funny.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 10:23 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6810 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

You lost me, Jana. Maybe we are talking about two different things.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I was just running back here to say that in NOOOO way shape or form am I trying to say a WS should be able to blame their bad behavior on a BS.

I'm sorry, I'm posting and running between tasks at work and I am not explaining well. I just meant - it works both ways. I did some really unhealthy things and I justified them by blaming my WS - because he was acting very horribly, I felt justified in also acting horribly. And that's not ok either.

Basically it all boils down to - what's right is right and it's not relative.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6810 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Sorry, can't help myself...

And before anyone gets all touchy-feely and thinks I'm sobbing in a corner over here about the beauty of love flowers and shit:

Yeah, but then you say

There aren't any right answers. There aren't any wrong ones. There are only answers that we can agree on or not.

Man, that's awful close to the old hippy song that goes something like

There ain’t no good guys. There ain’t no bad guys. There’s just you and me and we may disagree.

Hippies were notorious for sobbing in corners over love flowers and shit…. Ah, well, maybe it's just coincidence. Or maybe the singer is just trying to seduce some girl.
*************************

But, you know, they're just stories: the mythology of me. It's not ambrosia dripping from the lips of Olympian gods.

So true, and


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10384 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Neznayou
Member
Member # 40654
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I just want to be able to come back to this thread. I don't have anything to add at this time.


Me: WW
Caught at AP's house: 10 Aug 2012
Admitted PA: 12 Aug 2012
TT ended: Jan 2014

"Power, Lincoln, real power comes not from hate, but from truth."


Posts: 311 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: America to Europe
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

And before anyone gets all touchy-feely and thinks I'm sobbing in a corner over here about the beauty of love flowers and shit
wal, I don't think you have to worry about any of us going there


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5980 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
sudra
Member
Member # 30143
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Oops, double posted.

[This message edited by sudra at 2:18 AM, October 4th (Friday)]


Me (BW) (55), Him(SAWH) (58)
Married 22 years, 1 son (19), 1 stepdaughter (27)
DDay #1 January 2004
DDay #2 7-27-2010 7 month EA/PA (became "engaged" to OW before he told me he wanted a divorce)
Working on R

Posts: 1499 | Registered: Nov 2010
sudra
Member
Member # 30143
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)


"I truly, truly and strongly believe that a person has an affair because S/HE is broken, not because the marriage is broken."

I believe the WS is always at fault for making the decision, but there are many M's that are broken. Some that should not be repaired.

I don't think I said anything different, really. A marriage can be bad or good and someone could cheat. I think the cheater does so for his or her own reasons that are internal, not because the marriage is bad. It may be bad, but lots of people in bad marriages don't cheat. People in good marriages cheat, too.

It's about the cheater, not the marriage.

That's why the "why" is so important to discover. You can't affair proof your marriage so your partner won't cheat. You can only control whether you cheat. It's nice when a cheater discovers the why and will share with the spouse to give some security that it won't happen again.

My husband, I believe, really has no idea why he cheated. Twice. I believe he truly believes it's wrong, and he's taken steps to tighten up his nearly non-existent boundaries but I don't really feel safe that he won't cheat again.

In fact, I think there's a good chance that somewhere down the road, he will cheat again. He'll need to fill that hole inside that he can't seem to fill himself, and I can't fill it for him either. Someone will come along and he'll begin the justifications again - our marriage is crap, Sudra is crap, she doesn't love me like I deserve, new OW treats me the way I deserve, new OW is the love of my life, etc. And he'll be gone. And I'll be back again someday.

So yea, I totally agree. The why is extremely important.

[This message edited by sudra at 11:40 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me (BW) (55), Him(SAWH) (58)
Married 22 years, 1 son (19), 1 stepdaughter (27)
DDay #1 January 2004
DDay #2 7-27-2010 7 month EA/PA (became "engaged" to OW before he told me he wanted a divorce)
Working on R

Posts: 1499 | Registered: Nov 2010
DWBH
Member
Member # 35512
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

What a great thread... WAL, this is pure gold:
if your goal is to reconcile and/or forgive, knowing the why's and trying to see how those lifetime of hurts made so brittle the soul of your spouse is also your window into empathy, into forgiveness, into acceptance and understanding. Understanding their struggle through the lens of their why's is the seed that grows again into love.

I've discussed my W's "whys" a few times, as she slowly discovered them, but I can't claim I've ever really fully understood them, or put all the pieces together. I suspect I was just too hurt at the time to rationally think and accept them. It's very difficult for a BS, early-on, to accept any "why", because we're expecting to hear some reason that will make it totally "OK".

Like: "I had 10 guns to my head, and they were going to shoot me unless I fucked your best friend! What choice did I have?!?!"

It's all too easy to reject every reason muttered, especially after hearing months of blaming the BS and/or marriage. I have fallen into the "because she wanted too" or "because she's selfish" mindset many, many times.


Me: BH, 43
Her: FWW, 41 (ThornyRose)
M: 16 years, together 19
2 Daughters: 14 and 12
D Day: 9/25/2011; Lies & TT to 5/4/2012
~Double betrayal; caught them in the act~

Posts: 729 | Registered: May 2012 | From: WI
Razor
Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

if your goal is to reconcile and/or forgive, knowing the why's and trying to see how those lifetime of hurts made so brittle the soul of your spouse is also your window into empathy, into forgiveness, into acceptance and understanding. Understanding their struggle through the lens of their why's is the seed that grows again into love.

Although WAL is intellectually vastly superior to me I will risk disagreeing.

For me and possibly for me only. I dont really care what the WHY is for WW LTA.

WW deliberately chose to have a LTA. LTA meaning it was no mistake because she went back and back and back to OM over many years. From my view she chose that because that is what she wanted to do and basically said to herself *screw the consequences*.

What matters to me is HER finding out the WHY. It matters to me that she discover this and work on herself and make changes so she does not make that choice again. If she were to tell me of her WHYS I would listen and perhaps feel some empathy. But more likely I would not understand her WHYS. She would be speaking a language I could never understand.

It is not my job to press her to discover her WHY. I feel this is so because it is not my job to *fix* her. Just as it is not her job to *fix* or heal me.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
struggling3
Member
Member # 34671
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

we were more concerned with the HOW are you going to make yourself safe so you don't do that again?

Agree...agree...agree. What kind of things did you discuss to make you feel more secure about this. My H tells me "I absolutely know that nothing like this will ever happen again" That is about as much as it has been discussed. We have had many conversations about boundaries and I know that his habits at work have changed drastically ( not chit chatting with any woman). Just wondering what else you have done to work on this. Thanks

[This message edited by struggling3 at 1:23 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me - BS 55
H - WS 57/very remorseful and supportive
Kids 29, 26, 22
D-Day 8-5-11
discovered 4 month long EA
R - slow and steady but very optimistic

Posts: 319 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: New Jersey
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 11:48 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

"Jana"......I don't think my h ever justified his a with our neighbor because (as most WS's IMO) he never thought he would get caught and have to justify it to himself or anyone else for that matter.

The justification only came to light when he realized I was going to kick his ass to the curb. Prior to getting caught I believe my h was so high and mighty that he truly thought it was his right to do whatever the hell he wanted.

So basically his justification was simply that there was a willing partner and HE COULD. His justification was ow telling him that they were meant for each other.


Posts: 2465 | Registered: Sep 2005
OnAnIsland
Member
Member # 34319
Default  Posted: 1:10 AM, October 4th (Friday)

Thanks folks I need this. I haven't asked about the whys in a while, but a failure to come up with ones that I can integrate into my understanding of WH and our M is a dealbreaker for me. In other words, if it goes no further than the M or shrew like BW (that's me folks) is to blame, I am out. I have said this to WH and to IC.

Go WAL with the narrative history and its role here. Many WS have created a narrative history that explains the A during and prior to the A that needs to shift after d day through fog clearing and self examination. After waywards figure out their whys, then the partners (wayward and betrayed) can spend some time together on the narrative of their M or partnership. On integrating the A into the narrative history of their lives together.

Lots of good thinking here. Thanks again.

[This message edited by OnAnIsland at 1:11 AM, October 4th (Friday)]


D-day: Christmas 2011
D-day 2: 3/28/2013

Married for over 15 years
2 beautiful boys in elementary school

You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. Maya Angelou


Posts: 1479 | Registered: Dec 2011
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, October 4th (Friday)

"OnAnIsland".....that is true only if the WS is truly remorseful and totally honest with themselves and the BS as to what took place. Unless the WS is open and honest then there can't ever be a true R.

Posts: 2465 | Registered: Sep 2005
summerain
Member
Member # 37439
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, October 4th (Friday)

well i think we all make too much of a big deal about the why

could be quite possible that it's because:

he was selfish and thus didn't care about your feelings and didn't take the time to really think about what effect it would have on you. He also needed external validation because of a predisposing event leading to perpetuating factors. Perhaps like most infidelity there was not enough protecting factors, or perhaps simply didn't value them because of the predisposing event.

that's the clinical method of it.

If you take the generalised stereotyped way of how psychologists break it down you would realise that the main problem is we all have predisposing events that can lead to infidelity. We just have better strategies in handling them.

this 'why' business personally is not my cup of tea. Very rarely there will be a 'why' that will actually depict 'why' and you can go "well that circumstance is never going to repeat", but generally this is not the case and the why is just that they were selfish even though their predisposing event was awful etc, doesn't matter they still were selfish and they still didn't care


OW1 inadvertently let me know WH loves English breakfast tea. Never ever saw him drink it. And I never will.

Posts: 818 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Australia
sri624
Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, October 4th (Friday)

hi there...all waywards know why. and it is simple....they wanted to do it, liked it, and wanted to keep doing it as long as they didnt get caught. most waywards only come clean about the truth or end the a after they get busted. i spent so much time trying to understand the why. and after a while, i realized that the whys were only another excuse...another way to rugsweep.

bottom line, my h cheated because he did exactly what he wanted to do. he was cold, calculating, and it was deliberate, and repeated. it is a major character flaw.

the only hope in saving a m is for the BS to put on some serious bitch boots, and set some firm boundaries. and it is up to the wayward to get some help to work on why he is such an asshole. nothing we can do about that..it is all on him.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 988 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, October 5th (Saturday)

"sri624".......You are exactly right. I am STILL working on R 9 years later because of the very thing you stated. H was very remorseful only after he was caught. Of course he wanted to stay and R. I allowed it and worked on it to the best of my ability to which I am still working on it.

The biggest problem is, he never has nor ever will give me any reasons as to why which has made me totally believe (as you stated) that there really was NEVER a why. The why is just another excuse at best in a long line of excuses. This is why R will never work out for me, or at least a truthful and honest R.


Posts: 2465 | Registered: Sep 2005
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, October 5th (Saturday)

I decided that my sarcasm was best not shared.

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 11:55 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, October 5th (Saturday)

Edited: Duplicate post

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 11:40 AM, October 5th (Saturday)]


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
wifeno2
Member
Member # 31529
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, October 5th (Saturday)

I think the why is less important to me than the how. How did he let his whys (not enough attention) become another A. I'm much more interested in hearing what his inner dialogue was/is that it allows him to make all those decisions and choices.

I also think that for a long time I was very hung up on why. But I realized that the reason I was never satisfied with the answer is because it never put me in full control of it. There was never a why that allowed me to feel fully confident that I could keep him from doing it again.


Me-BW (45)
Him-WS (42)
DS 19 (prior relationship)
DS-8
DDay #1- 10/22/2010 EA/PA with MOW coworker
Dday#2:11/17/2010 beginning secret emails with potential OW#2
DDay #3 11/22/2010 still seeing OW#1
Too many DD's to count: Now up to OW #6.

Posts: 696 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: the south
TICKED OFF
Member
Member # 8291
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, October 5th (Saturday)

Honestly, to me there really was no WHY as to h's a with our neighbor. There was just an "I CAN, JUST DON'T GET CAUGHT" ...........he simply did it because he could and had someone there who gave him that option. No why's were needed.

Posts: 2465 | Registered: Sep 2005
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, October 5th (Saturday)

So, personally for us I think the whys were very important. My H never for an instant tried to blame me or the M, and we actually had what both of us considered a good and happy M. So it was especially confusing for me.

My H wrote me a pages long narrative at 5 months out about all the things that led to his faulty boundaries, attachment, etc. Believe me there was plenty of FOO, CSA, etc, but he also included boundaries, self-esteem, selfishness, ego-boosting, depression, opportunity, work stress, etc. For him he believes it was a "perfect storm".

And yes, it did help me. A lot. I actually read that narrative regularly. He owned it all, apologized profusely, discussed how much shame, revulsion, etc he now feels and how grateful he is that I have given him another chance.

And he has continued to grow since then. And changed so much. I actually feel safer with him now then I did prior to either Dday. I feel like he is "mine" in a way that I never did before; that he feels connected to me and puts my needs and interests equal to his own. That we are a team and have each other's backs.

I don't think either of us would be where we are without the hard work he put in to discover his "whys".



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
Topic Posts: 84