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Wayward Side
User Topic: t/j on Why
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Reading another post and seeing the same parade of simplification. Because we wanted to. Because we're selfish. Because we're broken.

God, sounds like gregorian chants should be sung along with flagellation.

I've got a why myself. Why is this bullshit, and it truly is bullshit, not dumped in general when some BS's roll out a very similar list when giving reasons they may not have been such gentle snowflakes? I've read depression, FOO, post partum...that's gone on for like years, deaths of family members.

Never is the response, "Oh boo fucking hoo, you were like that because you wanted to be and you're selfish. You never cared about your spouse's feelings just doing what you wanted". NEVER. Why? Because life is fucking complicated and people don't hit the ground running with a fucking manual on how to deal with some of the pretty nasty shit dealt along with many of us leaving the gate hobbled and beaten to begin with.

Some people don't get that truth is bi- directional. It ain't one way. What's true is true even if that truth is something "you" don't like and want to admit to or accept.

Here are some "truths" that seem to apply differently on here.

1. They wanted to/selfish...for waywards that can encompass mental illness, snot slinging drunk, PTSD, FOO, abusive spouse, depression...

For many BS's anything on that list excuses any shitty treatment of their spouse. They're told by some it doesn't matter what they did there is no reason or excuse for affairs. Very true. Very incomplete. There's also no excuse for using any of that as "reasons" to be a shit and inflict pain.

2. People seldom, if ever, change so once a cheater always a cheater. Yeah? So guess every BS that posts they wacked, smacked, their spouse aprs this shit is an abuser? The post after post I've read on here that the WS's affair changed them forever. How is that possible if "people don't change"? Because it isn't. Of course people change. Life changes us. We control how that change is made so own that and stop using life and other's for shit behavior and choices regardless of what alphabet "you"sport. Don't get convenient truth. Life sure doesn't make that distinction. If I jump from the Empire State Building baring some complete freak event I'm gonna be a puddle whether I'm Hannibal Lector or Mother Theresa because what's true for one is for the other.

3. They couldn't have loved me and done xyz. So, no BS has ever treated their spouse in ways they regret, feel guilt for, know was wrong? I already know this answer. I've read post after post from honest BS's that tell their story. Did they not love their spouse?

I didn't. I know people here did. I see them respond to threads trying to share only to be smacked down and told how they feel. NO ONE lives in another's head or understands how they feel, felt, deal. To state that is arrogant and ignorant.

Why's are important to the WS. Theyre individual and multilayered, unless "you're" just a complete asshole and use people like Kleenex. No cure for that.

It really doesn't matter if anyone else believes them, buys into them, accepts them. They're not for others. They're what we need to find out to know where to start the work.

If my why is I don't handle pain well, that's my start. If my why is validation, that's my start. If my why is rage and revenge (personal "favorite") that's where I started.

I joined this site to see if someone could help me deal with my rage. It took 6 months and gentle, sometimes not so gentle, steady...ok, but what about your choices. What? My choices? I did this to myself? WTF????????

That started the greatest work project I ever took on and has changed both myself and my life. Excuses don't get "you" there, pointing fingers doesn't get "you" there, dismissing and deminishing others, for sure doesn't get "you" there.

People just need to be careful when they're passing down absolutes and blanket statements that they aren't painting themselves into a corner with that same broad brush.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 10:55 AM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Totally get where you're coming from. Really. See it just as much.

A frustrating as it is, I can't control other people, I can't make them "see" something they choose not to. Really not my job to anyway. In that battle right now. Have to make the choice to walk away and they have to deal (or not deal) with it alone. Welcome to Wayward 101. *sigh*

I've spent a lifetime caring too much about what other people think, say, do. I'm kind of tired of it. I'm learning that at the end of the day, all that matters is what's in my heart. And I kinda listen to QS too.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6127 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:28 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Why's are important to the WS. Theyre individual and multilayered, unless "you're" just a complete asshole and use people like Kleenex. No cure for that.
I agree with this. FWH did just use the AP as a kleenex, though. Yeah, a selfish asshole.

What made MisterSister want to have an affair. And, he wanted to. Because it was easier to deal with his pain by getting validation from someone else. Why? Because he was selfish. Fuck Milkshake if she gets hurt by this. Because it is all about me, me, me. All the time. It was easier for him to get good feelings fucking someone else instead of looking at himself and doing the hard work to become a whole human being whose validation comes from within and feeling good by that.

I and FWH understand that my FWH has FoO issues, poor coping skills, and oh, yeah, he was really angry with me. He was getting revenge on me. Showing me that there was indeed someone else out there that would fuck him with no expectations of anything other than shoving his dick in her. Yeah, maybe he had to beg for sex from me because there was absolutely no emotional intimacy going on between us. FWH admits he was an emotional retard < his word, not mine. Still, what it all boils down to is selfishness. That doesn't mean work isn't being done or hasn't been done.

eta: work on me, too. How awful of me to make my FWH beg for sex. I would be devastated if I had to beg FWH for sex. I kick myself in the ass for that. The right thing to do was to leave him. I didn't. That was wrong of me. Isn't an excuse for his affair, though, and still selfish. 'Cause the right thing would have been for him to listen to the MC when we went instead of feeling like we were "picking on him". Or, he should have left me.

When you say there is no cure for treating people like kleenex, UO, that was my thought, too. That was why I was hysterical calling my MC when it dawned on me how very selfish MisterSister was (not just the affair) because he was so generous financially I didn't realize how selfish he was throughout decades of our marriage. MC said selfishness can be cured and didn't feel MrSister was NPD. NPD isn't curable.

eta: eta: Once again, I feel I misunderstood the real point of your post, UO, and went in a totally different direction. Sorry!

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 5:08 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

If my why is I don't handle pain well, that's my start. If my why is validation, that's my start. If my why is rage and revenge (personal "favorite") that's where I started.

Isn't this why it's a good idea to meet people "where they are"? Both BS and WS. We all need to be met where we are, so that we might be shown the next place we can choose to go.

People just need to be careful when they're passing down absolutes and blanket statements that they aren't painting themselves into a corner with that same broad brush.

Sometimes painting ourselves into that corner is exactly what helps us realize we don't like "where we are".

As a frequent (hopefully past) user of blanket statements and broad brush strokes...being trapped in a corner by the stroke of your own brush can be exactly what creates the desire to escape it.

What? My choices? I did this to myself?
Isn't that eventually where we all end up. What we allow, how we choose. I didn't get into this alone. But that takes a good long while to get to that realization. Part of the process I suppose.

I realize that you are pointing out the similarity of the behaviors and thought processes ....but I get the feeling that you are frustrated by the failure of BS's to recognize it. It takes time. Lots of time and introspection, and willingness to look past the defenses we build around our ideas.



BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2372 | Registered: Jan 2010
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

damn girl - you are my hero.
trying to share only to be smacked down and told how they feel. NO ONE lives in another's head or understands how they feel, felt, deal. To state that is arrogant and ignorant.
THIS! Oh I get soooooo pissed when I see this and it happens FAR too often.
People just need to be careful when they're passing down absolutes and blanket statements that they aren't painting themselves into a corner with that same broad brush.
Agreed!


FWW - 41
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5833 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Isn't this why it's a good idea to meet people "where they are"? Both BS and WS. We all need to be met where we are, so that we might be shown the next place we can choose to go.

Great statement. We can tell others right from wrong based on our own experiences, but unless we help them to understand why, starting with were they stand right now, they may simply walk away not believing.

There are many why's out there. The difficult task is identifying which why's can and should be fixed. FOO may be a why, but not something that can be fixed. It's permanent record. Rather, it may be the incorrect value programming as a result of the FOO, and likely, more than one attribute.

Thanks UO for another great topic.

[This message edited by still-living at 3:06 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

Recovery is building a pyramid of inference from which to climb and see clearer, and heavy usage of the reflexive loop.


Posts: 719 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 3:29 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I didn't. I know people here did. I see them respond to threads trying to share only to be smacked down and told how they feel. NO ONE lives in another's head or understands how they feel, felt, deal. To state that is arrogant and ignorant.

Why's are important to the WS. Theyre individual and multilayered, unless "you're" just a complete asshole and use people like Kleenex. No cure for that.

It really doesn't matter if anyone else believes them, buys into them, accepts them. They're not for others. They're what we need to find out to know where to start the work.

Great insight. Probably the hardest thing for me to accept. Ultimately, the why is for her. I may not(probably not) understand her why. I'm not her.

I have to focus on today. If the A wasn't an instant deal-breaker, am I willing to stay with who she is now? Is she working on discovering why and preventing a recurrence?

Today, the answer is yes.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2684 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Red  Posted: 3:30 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Oh I get soooooo pissed when I see this and it happens FAR too often.

In the future when you see something like this, please contact a member of the staff. We'd like to know where all the bashing and dismissing happening because we're here all day and don't see it.

Thank you


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 36809 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
Herkemeyer
Member
Member # 36910
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

UO, I apologize. I will never again ask my WW why. I didn't fulfill all her needs so she got the rest of them filed somewhere else. I guess that's the way it should be done and it is not my place to ask why I have to keep my promises, vows or basic human courtesies and she doesn't. Lie to me, ignore me, expect me to continue to provide. I won't ask why I'm so worthless to you.


BH-43
(F?)WW-39 (neznayou)
DDay-08/10/12 TT for 18 Months (I think)
Married 19 years

Posts: 123 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Colorado
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

wh5 - next time, I will.


FWW - 41
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5833 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
wifehad5
Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Thank you MJ. Speaking for the staff, we all appreciate it


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 36809 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Herkemeyer...

As a member...I encourage all BS's to get to the bottom of why their WS cheated. I personally feel its very important to have any and all questions answered. I believe that's the only way towards true healing and letting go of resentment and anger.

Please do not feel as if you've done anything wrong...you haven't


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197047 | Registered: May 2002
AML04
Member
Member # 39682
Default  Posted: 5:16 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

For me, and I'm really the only person I can speak for, having my H understand his "whys" is the most important thing to R. He's having a hard time with this and I'm trying to help but ultimately only he can find the answers.

I don't have to like them and probably won't understand but in order to stay, I need to accept it and be confident he's working to change those behaviors that are harmful to our M. That is all that should really matter now. I'm not saying that sometimes I can't see past what he did, sometimes it brings me to my knees and/or fills me with rage. Then I try to remember what he's doing now to prove to me this is where he wants to be.

I was definitely not perfect and I have my own issues to work out. I can't just sit back and wait for him to fix himself. It takes two fully invested people to have a healthy marriage.

Eta:

Herkemeyer-I don't think UO was saying not to ask why? Of course you should. If your WW truly wants to reconcile she will work her hardest to figure it out. In the end you have to decide if you can accept that.

[This message edited by AML04 at 4:40 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me-BS Him-WH DS 5/12
T-13 M-9
DDay 5/26/13, TT through 8/13
2.5 yr EA w/co-worker, PA 12/12 to 4/13.
Hopeful for R

Posts: 842 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: MA
foundoutlater
Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

UO, I apologize. I will never again ask my WW why.

OK Im not always the brightest tool in the shed but I did not see that from the OP. I thought the point was the why is imperative and complicated and blanket statements may not helpful or may just be the beginning. I tend to agree with the latter the simple why is the beginning.

I encourage all BS's to get to the bottom of why their WS cheated. I personally feel its very important to have any and all questions answered. I believe that's the only way towards true healing and letting go of resentment and anger.

I half agree with this I think the why is an intergral part in healing from this and growing. However a BS can not do it the WS has to do this work. Hell the BS has plenty to focus on with their own healing. For me I need the W to work on herself in order to feel safer with her and feel she is honest with me and herself.


Your beliefs dont make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jul 2011
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

However a BS can not do it the WS has to do this work

Absolutely. Without question


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197047 | Registered: May 2002
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

UO, I apologize. I will never again ask my WW why. I didn't fulfill all her needs so she got the rest of them filed somewhere else. I guess that's the way it should be done and it is not my place to ask why I have to keep my promises, vows or basic human courtesies and she doesn't. Lie to me, ignore me, expect me to continue to provide. I won't ask why I'm so worthless to you.

That's not what my post was about at all. Asking why is a very valid and understandable thing to do. Hell, I ask my kids why they do things. I need to understand where their mindset is.

The problem is when someone asks AND then answers for the person. What understanding does that foster? How does that get anyone any clarity.

If I ask you why you do something then tell you what your "real" reason was what's missing from that whole equation?

While a BS understanding why is so valuable, and I'm sure helpful, I can see why some are not in the best frame of mind to really even be in the best place to hear any answer. That's why I think some respond with, "it's all bullshit anyway. It's a or b".

If it honestly is that simple how does anyone get through this shit? If because they wanted to and are selfish is the true answer what on earth is there to work with?

The whole "want" premise can be a hugely faulty one right out of the gate. People can be in circumstances and environments where there is absolutely nothing they "want" and any choice would cause devastation. Staying. Leaving. Neither great.

That's when the why becomes so very crucial. Why did you handle pain by green lighting this choice? Why did you think the choice to cheat would be a solution and if you weren't thinking long term why did you suspend that thought processess ignoring the very real dire consequences to the choices you made?

That's the work needed. It's not how some handle getting what they want and thinking only of themselves. If so, boy do most miss the fucking mark by a country mile. It's how some handle not getting their wants and when that "fuck this shit" hits the first actually self centered thought they have is a beyond catastrophic fail.

While its easy to lump so much is missed about others AND yourself.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
foundoutlater
Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

The problem is when someone asks AND then answers for the person. What understanding does that foster? How does that get anyone any clarity.

Ive been walking this road for awhile with my W and I still struggle with it. I understand a bit better why I do it. I needed it and framed it in a way I could understand and at the time my W was just a liar to me. I viewed everything she said with suspicion. It got better when I gave up on figuring out why. Still happens but its better. Its a long road and a long process. My W has done a lot of work, still does and that has helped me hear her. It aint easy.

If because they wanted to and are selfish is the true answer what on earth is there to work with?

I think the simple answers are easy to grasp when we need a lifeline. And I think the truth is for many that this answer is true but not the foundation of the why.


Your beliefs dont make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jul 2011
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

So maybe I didn't totally misunderstand. Why do you feel being selfish isn't a valid answer and why do you feel that isn't much to work with?

The problems in our marriage all go to the root problem of my FWH's selfishness. Of only thinking of himself. Emotionally, I am talking about.

The change in my FWH is quite remarkable. He is learning to not be selfish. It has made a big difference.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:15 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I really need to understand this people. As I said in the other thread, we have been dealing with this for 3 1/2 years. It always comes back to selfishness. He wanted external validation. Is that the answer to why? I still say that is selfishness.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 6:23 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

So maybe I didn't totally misunderstand. Why do you feel being selfish isn't a valid answer and why do you feel that isn't much to work with?

I'm sure it is for some. It's the blanket "it is ALWAYS".

Sister, if someone honestly wanted to invite that devastation onto their family strictly because they were selfish people, and I'm using the literal definition of "lacking consideration for others chiefly concerned with ones own personal profit or pleasure" I'm not sure how I could ever get passed that. I realize that's me and that's why I asked. That, to me would be lethal.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
AML04
Member
Member # 39682
Default  Posted: 6:56 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I don't want to t/j but wanted to ask Sister a sincere question. Is there a "why" behind his need for external validation? That is part of my H's (broad) answer to the why question. In talking to him about it I think his need for it was brought about by more than just selfishness (FOO issues, never feeling accepted, being bullied as examples).
Would something like that make a difference to you? I don't mean this in a b*tchy way, I'm honestly wondering.


Me-BS Him-WH DS 5/12
T-13 M-9
DDay 5/26/13, TT through 8/13
2.5 yr EA w/co-worker, PA 12/12 to 4/13.
Hopeful for R

Posts: 842 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: MA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Would something like that make a difference to you? I don't mean this in a b*tchy way, I'm honestly wondering.
I wouldn't have felt it was b*tchy at all, AML04, even without your qualifier. How else are we going to learn without asking questions.

Oh, MisterSister has some deep FoO issues. Emotionally distant father, never good enough for dear old Dad, never felt loved by either parent. FIL was extremely selfish and angry. Everyone tiptoed around their father. MIL taught them it is better to lie or at least "hide" things than to upset Daddy. Taught them to be conflict avoiders. FWH is a big conflict avoider. It is very sad.

I just feel that it still just ultimately comes down to his being selfish. He knew it was wrong, he knew I would be hurt, but he selfishly choose to go ahead and do it (and do it, and do it, do it, do it ) because his needs came before everyone else's.

UO, I don't feel that selfishness out trumps every other "bad" why out there. I am able to deal with it. Mostly because I see the change. And, who knows, I could be wrong. Maybe it isn't selfishness. It sure seems and felt like selfishness. Maybe it was that he was emotionally unavailable all those years.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:23 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Steppenwolf
Member
Member # 38140
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

The only things we can control are our actions and reactions.

If someone hands me a hall pass stamped "FOO" I have to make the conscious effort to start opening doors. If I choose to just hang out in the hall, I'm just treading water. The doors must be opened though; the digging has to start somewhere and for many, the directions to somewhere comes in a blanket statement.

One if the best things about this forum is the abundance of varying perspective. Nobody has a cure for any of this though.


Me: WS- 30s
Her: BS- 30s RockyMtn



Posts: 126 | Registered: Jan 2013
Steppenwolf
Member
Member # 38140
Default  Posted: 10:19 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

Whoa. So I just found the thread you were referencing. I don't know why, but it feels like an attack on WSs that are actually trying to work on their shit. I felt personally attacked for some reason.


Me: WS- 30s
Her: BS- 30s RockyMtn



Posts: 126 | Registered: Jan 2013
RightTrack
Member
Member # 36976
Default  Posted: 11:23 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

My 2 cents is that most of our WS's are not trying that hard to "work on their shit." You here on SI are the 1%.

Of course there are as many different reasons that people have affairs as there are people. I think the unifying "selfish" aspect is the fact that the WS wasn't honest up front with their spouses.

Granted, honesty would lead to divorce and a whole different set of hurt feelings and anger, but leaving your spouse for another honestly wouldn't be cheating.


Posts: 616 | Registered: Sep 2012
hardlessons
Member
Member # 35025
Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

but leaving your spouse for another honestly wouldn't be cheating.

How do you figure that? That is infidelity.... You would have to have some motivation for going from current pastures to "greener" ones and that is when the wayward behavior manifests itself..

All this why is interesting to read, how some feel all warm and fuzzy inside because they can say "selfish bastard" or go the extreme other and try to nail down every little hurt or foo. The question should be what makes YOU healthy and authentic BS or WS, I see it in others and have done it myself where I sit in the warm shit of satisfaction thinking "I got this". Why because the words make it so? Words can be a knife or they can be a tool to avoid reality, avoid the cut of truth.


Me WH
Wife Tired Girl
3 adult sons
"a wayward...annnnd just a tad betrayed."

Posts: 880 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Arizona
RightTrack
Member
Member # 36976
Default  Posted: 11:53 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

I don't mean cultivating another relationship while you are married. Honesty is telling your spouse why you are unhappy and why you are getting a divorce, getting that divorce and then finding someone else. And while that would be devastating that wouldn't be "cheating". I have to think that people get divorced everyday for reasons other than cheating (although I've gotten a bit cynical).

I think the selfish aspect of "cheating" comes in when the WS skips the hard part of the honesty and lies and stays wit the BS during the new relationship.

Why anyone would lie to a spouse instead of ending things honestly and THEN going on to the next relationship is going to be unique to every person. I would think that anyway. I really don't know, that's why I rely on the good people here on the Wayward side to 'splain things to me. Thanks.


Posts: 616 | Registered: Sep 2012
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:53 PM, October 2nd (Wednesday)

**Posting as a member**

I'm sorry. I don't see what good this conversation is doing at all.

There are a lot of hurting and confused members on this website. You are going to hear things you don't agree with. You are going to read things that trigger you and make you angry.

Believe it or not, every comment isn't directed at you or your situation. That's the thing about life experiences - they vary so drastically that we can't make effective buckets for any group if you scrutinize closely enough.

I'm consistently proud and enlightened by members of all sides of this infidelity fence who choose to work on themselves and learn and grow. Can we please dispense with the "BS's are Hypocrites" vs "WS's are Jerks" camp building? Let's worry more about our own shit and less about how someone else may be judging us. Let's get back to healing.


If you can't learn to enjoy your life when you have problems, you may never enjoy it because we'll always have problems. - Joyce Meyer

Posts: 16850 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I really don't see how it is camp building.

I see it as asking others to not paint WS's with the " they are all just selfish and wanted to do it" brush.

That gets trotted out so much that sometimes it gets difficult to hear. For those of us that have put in a lot of work to know that it wasn't about just being selfish and wanting to do it, and for those that are here just starting that journey, it would be nice to not always get painted with that brush.

That was what UO was saying. Here in wayward is our safe place, the place where we can come and say what we need to respectfully. And I feel that has been done. We would like it if BS's could understand that unfortunately it is not as simple as being just selfish and we wanted to. If it was, it wouldn't take near the work to figure our shit out and fix it.

Do I think that to a BS it feels very much like we were just selfish and wanted to, probably,absolutely. Does that mean that is the truth of it? No. And that is where we need to learn to meet in the middle.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4712 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Wow This sure does make a person think.
When a person hears "you are just selfish and you just wanted to screw other guys" ,I feel deflated and without hope.
To me part of it is I am/was selfish, everyone is I believe to some extent.
The other part is where did that start and what gave me the right or the need to be that way. Most of my actions have kept me distant and safe, So I am learning my why's and the reason I think act and react to those around me and why I can shut down and revert to being a child in needs and want and self gratification.
So is it simply I am selfish and just wanted to.NO! there is so much more too it.
It just sucks the being caught has been the catalyst for this search. If only I had done it before.:-(


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 399 | Registered: Apr 2013
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I am very curious about this. I have spent years working on myself to become a person of integrity. Thousands of hours of self inventory, journaling, and peer therapy.

Every flaw of my character has been traced back to Self-Centered Fear. That self obsession that I am going to be harmed, lose something I have, or not get something I want. It is a completely selfish way of thinking.

"lacking consideration for others chiefly concerned with ones own personal profit or pleasure"

Sure I can dig deeper to see where that came from. I was adopted and suffer serious abandonment issues, no brainer there. But isn't calling that a "why" just shifting the blame. There are plenty of people who were adopted, bullied, not loved the right way, abused, or whatever that do not cheat, abuse drugs, abuse others, steal, con, manipulate or any other selfish behavior.

We all have our demons but personal responsibility starts at Self-Centered Fear and the attitudes, ideas and behavior that comes from it.

If anyone could give me some different examples of "whys" that do no not point fingers at others I would greatly appreciate it. I would love to dig deeper into myself.


BS 39
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2553 | Registered: Aug 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I think that to a BS it feels very much like we were just selfish and wanted to
Does that mean that is the truth of it? No.
This isn't my answer to "why" for my FWH this was his why after working on himself over the past few years. Do I feel it is the truth? For him, yes. How can anyone claim to know what is the truth for my FWH?

I feel that it is an element for most WS's in having the affair, the selfish and wanting to component. I don't feel I painted it as "always" (and maybe I wasn't the one that UO felt did, as there were others on the thread). But, who knows, maybe only a very few WS's really wanted to have an affair and they weren't selfish in having one. I honestly don't know. I haven't done the research and I don't have the stats. I am no expert, except on our particular situation.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Chicho, great post and I agree wholeheartedly.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

it would be nice to not always get painted with that brush.

I'm struggling with the always.



BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


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HardenMyHeart
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Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Every flaw of my character has been traced back to Self-Centered Fear. That self obsession that I am going to be harmed, lose something I have, or not get something I want. It is a completely selfish way of thinking.

Great point. Also, everyone's actions are driven by just two basic motivations: To be happy and to avoid suffering.


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Posts: 5631 | Registered: Aug 2007
AnneOther
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Member # 38368
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I see it as asking others to not paint WS's with the " they are all just selfish and wanted to do it" brush.

That gets trotted out so much that sometimes it gets difficult to hear. For those of us that have put in a lot of work to know that it wasn't about just being selfish and wanting to do it, and for those that are here just starting that journey, it would be nice to not always get painted with that brush.

I just wanted to chime in, as a BS, and say I feel the same way. Sweeping generalisations against *any* group of people are always wrong. I think the BSs on here get given too much leeway when they use the broad brush, because they are the hurt party. I understand that, kind of. But it is still wrong. And on a wholly personal level I find it off-putting, which is why I mostly just read now and don't post. I would spend too much time getting irked about sweeping generalisations were I to post with any regularity.


Posts: 72 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: U.K.
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Also, everyone's actions are driven by just two basic motivations: To be happy and to avoid suffering.
That is golden, HardenMyHeart.

It would be nice if both you and Chicho could repost your posts on the thread in the Reconciliation forum as I can't quote you, but it would be an amazing addition to that thread.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
atthedoor
Member
Member # 25993
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Thank you UO for once again bringing up such a relavant thought for all to ponder.
I used your topic last night to initiate a convo with BH.

Very productive because we were able to discuss the "whys" as a team. BH's sticking point has been the standard you were selfish and wanted to. this line of thinking never satisfies him, ever. Because then it leads to "how could you have done this to me, our kids" which then ushers in my dance of explaining without refering to ANYTHING HE EVER DID WRONG, which excludes 99.999999999% of the time we spent together.

Bottom line in getting to the whys, BOTH NEED to walk in toward each other, giving, trying to understand, with compassion, then there is a chance at getting to a real why.


Clearly we are on the ten year plan.
DD 10/14/2009

Posts: 138 | Registered: Oct 2009
Aubrie
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Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Totally agree with JRazz.

That gets trotted out so much that sometimes it gets difficult to hear. For those of us that have put in a lot of work to know that it wasn't about just being selfish and wanting to do it, and for those that are here just starting that journey, it would be nice to not always get painted with that brush.

That was what UO was saying. Here in wayward is our safe place, the place where we can come and say what we need to respectfully. And I feel that has been done. We would like it if BS's could understand that unfortunately it is not as simple as being just selfish and we wanted to.

No actually, Wayward was created so that waywards could work thru their own crap and gain support, all while being moderated and protected. It's not an area for PSAs. If a PSA is necessary, I'm quite sure the Mods and Guides can handle that. It's not our job to make other people "see the light". We can offer an opinion and it's up to the receiver what they do with it.

Are there people painting with a broad brush? Yeah. So? Why does that affect you and your life? They aren't your BS. You know the truth. Move along. Ignore. Isn't that what we're always told? Why do we have to stand up and jump and yell, "NOOOOO, LISTEN to me! That's not right."? Different opinions, different lives.

Do I agree with the basic "You were just selfish" bit? No. There's way more layers to the cake than that. But that's between me and my husband. And he's "cool" with my "whys" and it doesn't really matter if a BS who is up to their ears in the rage stage is ranting about "why" being bull. They aren't my BS. My BS is working with me on our R and he's understanding of my issues. That's all that really matters to me.

[This message edited by Aubrie84 at 9:37 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6127 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Deeply Scared
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Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

***as a member***


Are there people painting with a broad brush? Yeah. So? Why does that affect you and your life? They aren't your BS. You know the truth. Move along. Ignore. Isn't that what we're always told? Why do we have to stand up and jump and yell, "NOOOOO, LISTEN to me! That's not right."? Different opinions, different lives.

Aubrie...

That's exactly it. I'll never understand why people feel it's necessary to stand at the top of the mountain and scream for others to not only understand but to change their viewpoints and/or way of thinking.

When people are secure with who they are, it's much easier to live and let live.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197047 | Registered: May 2002
uncertainone
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Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

We all have our demons but personal responsibility starts at Self-Centered Fear and the attitudes, ideas and behavior that comes from it.

Pretty much every emotion is self centered. Pain being one of the most self centered of all. It's supposed to be. Protecting the source is its reason for being.

Self centered is not always a bad thing. Many times putting ourselves last, sacrificing, ignoring our voices inside us telling us something is very very wrong is where the wheels start coming off.

Some of "us" need to be much more self centered. Sadly for some, the affair was their first shot at trying that. That is what I meant by missed it by a country mile. People that don't have much, if any experience with something don't usually become masters at it fresh out of the gate.

It wasn't about camp building at all. That's actually what painting with a broad brush and sticking people into two (in this case) neat little compartments does. It creates "us" and "them".

Considering how many sadly go from one of those "groups" to the "other" it may be helpful to look and see just how many of those trouble makers we have inside us before that soul suicide happens.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 10:00 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
bionicgal
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Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I guess my feeling is that it is certainly the nature of an affair that it is selfish. No one really goes into an affair for reasons that are not utterly self-motivated.

However, saying that being selfish is the whole "why" of the affair makes it sound like name calling to me. That is something I might say to my WS when I want him to see how he hurt me -- how wrong his actions were. It is a judgement that shuts down conversation in our case. It feels like name calling and reducing something complex down to something that can be waved away. i.e. "He is just selfish." That feels dehumanizing to me.

And Chico asked about "whys" that don't involve pointing the finger elsewhere. Some I can think of are:

I looked to others for validation
I didn't feel valuable/desirable
I felt like my life was slipping away
I was worried about my body breaking down/aging
I was lonely
I felt unattractive
I felt second to the kids/job
I ignored my needs and they got too overwhelming
I didn't think I was capable of it, so my boundaries were poor.

Some of these can appear blaming (Like feeling second) but they are all feelings that could lead to an affair. Then the partners have to get to the work of figuring out how to deal with the whys, and what has to be sorted out in the BS's psyche, and what the WS can help with. Keeping in mind, of course, that the WS was not to blame for these things, per se.

However, sometimes we BS do see where we have unwittingly played a part in some of these rationalizations. Doesn't make it our fault, obviously. But, unless one is dealing with a SA or serial philanderer, I feel like for a marriage to work, both have to take serious stock of themselves. Just my opinion, though.

ETA a bunch of stuff, and change a WS to BS.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:16 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1859 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

that can be waved away. i.e. "He is just selfish."
There you go again with the "waving" away crap, bionicgal.

eta: changed a word and to add, who is "waving" crap away? Over 3 years (and still ongoing) of digging into one's self isn't waving anything away.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:18 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

That is something I might say to my WS when I want him to see how he hurt me -- how wrong his actions were. It is a judgement that shuts down conversation in our case. It feels like name calling and reducing something complex down to something that can be waved away. i.e. "He is just selfish." That feels dehumanizing to me.

This right here. This would be why talking about this is good.

Sure, can we ignore that this is done on this site, ya. Or we can talk about it and maybe something is learned by it.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4712 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

SM, that is what it would feel like to me; that is all I can really speak to. When I say "he just did it because he was selfish," it is because I am angry and feeling dismissive.

If it doesn't feel that way to you or him, then it doesn't sound like it is a problem for you guys.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1859 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

dismissive.
Hmmm, well maybe that is how it feels that you are being with your "waving" and "duh" posts.

eta: to make it more clear

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:27 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9511 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Kierst13
Member
Member # 39197
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I sit firmly on the he did it because he was selfish and wanted to side of the fence.

I think looking into the FOO, self-esteem and others issues is a necessary thing to do, but only because it funnels into the, the affair was committed because they wanted to and were selfish bottle.

On the other hand, the BS needs to look within themselves as well and deal with their demons that also root themselves in selfishness. There is no perfect spouse or perfect marriage, and although nobody can be forced into an affair, once the decision to R is made and the affair starts to get processed. The WS has to have a voice as well to say what wasn't working in the marriage for them.

We are all selfish and that selfishness can be traced to past circumstances, but the peeled onion leads to a self-centered focus, in one or many areas of our lives. Nobody is exempt of this truth.

[This message edited by Kierst13 at 10:35 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Story in my profile
He lied, I gave the gift of R
He became the model remorseful WS...all while lying and seeing her
Am I done? Yes I am!

Posts: 347 | Registered: May 2013
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Many times putting ourselves last, sacrificing, ignoring our voices inside us telling us something is very very wrong is where the wheels start coming off.

That'sthe most ironic one. Full of confusion and contradiction.

That people pleasing and self abandonment, for me, is still based in self centered fear. There is a distorted comfort in familiar pain. What if a change ddoesn't work out for me? What if I find myself worse off? What if my new expectations go unfulfilled? Atleast whereiI'm at I know what to expect.

Self preservation through self abandonment.


BS 39
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2553 | Registered: Aug 2012
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

That people pleasing and self abandonment, for me, is still based in self centered fear.

Yes, absolutely. I try to get everyone to like me - people pleasing. Why? Because I have a self-centered fear of being disliked. So I sacrifice my own wants/opinions/needs so other people will like me. That's not healthy.

And my husband, in the past, got included in my umbrella of "self." So when I sacrificed my own needs/feelings in order to gain that all-important approval from - insert random person - I was often throwing him under the bus along with myself.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6646 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
uncertainone
Member
Member # 28108
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, October 3rd (Thursday)

That people pleasing and self abandonment, for me, is still based in self centered fear

Yep. Fear, pain, anger...all "self centered". Think that's pretty universal.

It's the coping part that causes the issues, not the feelings.

That was where my journey started. Recognizing the anger before it hit the rage stage while at the same time unwinding that lake of rage I had collected over the years. All that poison I had accumulated when I had no place to express or even the ability to protect myself resulted in amassing weapons of mass destruction with no skill in how to aim or control them.

That survival mentality is so life preserving at some points in our lives it never occurs that it not only becomes unnecessary but also life threatening. That life saver I hung onto so tightly became toxic waste and was now killing me.


Me: 37

'til the roof comes off. 'til the lights go out. 'til my legs give out, can't shut my mouth


Posts: 6795 | Registered: Mar 2010
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

Well put, UO.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1859 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

I admit, that "Duh" was not nice, and I am sorry. It it dismissive.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1859 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

That survival mentality is so life preserving at some points in our lives it never occurs that it not only becomes unnecessary but also life threatening. That life saver I hung onto so tightly became toxic waste and was now killing me

This is huge and just resounded with a huge bang for me.
THe skills I have learnt that have kept me safe. Is what killed me in the end and honestly keep seeping in. I hear you on having to take alook at them and realize what their purpose had been useful for at thetime that they were learnt and realize today, I have to stop them.
And yes it all is a self centered preservation.
This is why too, some topics we have on SI may cause some controversy and may get a little heated, they all do have some merit and need to be said.
Once again thanks to SI for allowing everyone to voice their thoughts. None our wrong, just each their own perspective. And all have alearning lesson in them.


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 399 | Registered: Apr 2013
ReunitePangea
Member
Member # 37529
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)

If because they wanted to and are selfish is the true answer what on earth is there to work with?

I think the simple answers are easy to grasp when we need a lifeline. And I think the truth is for many that this answer is true but not the foundation of the why.

I agree with what is said above.

UO - I get what you are trying to say I think, your right it is often much more complex than just I was selfish. But for me as a BS, I have 14 years of betrayal to deal with. I am sure the why is very complex and the whys were different even at different points in time all of those years. During that time there were parts when we were just dating, then engaged, then married and then a family with kids. There are likely deep whys that covered the whole time and specific whys on why it continued at various parts. I get that, however, if I were to sum it all up into something I as a BS can remotely understand, it was because she was selfish and put her wants above things that would hurt me.

The she was selfish why explanation doesn't leave room for excuses. You can't blame shift things on me as a BS with that why. It is simple and understandable for me. You are right that it is much more complex but that is my wife's problem to figure out and there is not much I can do about it. I as a BS need a much simplier expanation that I can hang onto to get past something I likely will never fully understand.


BS - Me 38
WS - Wife 39
D-Day - Oct 12
Married 10 years
OM1 - 12-year LTA
OM2 - 9 month A turned into open relationship with couple for another 1 1/2 years

Posts: 472 | Registered: Nov 2012
Topic Posts: 54