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Reconciliation
User Topic: Would R have been different if he had been honest?
Lonelygirl10
Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

I know I'm posting a ton lately. I'm trying to do 30 days NC, and I just have a ton of thoughts going through my head. Since I can't talk to him, I just post here. Thank you for listening to all my rambling thoughts.

I know that his friends have told him that all the lies didn't matter. They told him that I never would have been able to get over the cheating, and that he should have just moved on.

That frustrates me so much, and I don't think it's true.

Yes, the A was very, very bad. And the A is very hard to get over. I have a lot of pain wrapped up with the A, and I feel like I wasn't good enough for him.

But I really feel like it could have been different if he had been honest. The thing that finally made me walk away for 30 days was the lying, not the A stuff. The lying was what did it. When I found out that he had made up his counseling, was faking to take ADs, and had continued to lie about being in touch with friends of the affair, it was just too much. I didn't walk away because of the A stuff. I was willing to stay and work on that, because I loved him. I walked away because I can't believe a single thing that comes out of his mouth.

So I really feel like it would have been different if he had told me the whole truth immediately. But his friends tell him that it's something that I just can't get over, no matter what he does.

Am I crazy to think that the lying makes a huge difference in the outcome of R?


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1126 | Registered: Jul 2013
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 10:46 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

The A is damaging and sometimes all encompassing. However, the lies are toxic and they bleed the life out of us BSs. An affair when discovered and then coupled with a WS that comes 100% clean and answers all questions truthfully has the best chance at R.

Lies - kill slowly and completely.


"How people treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours."
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 110 | Registered: Sep 2013
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 10:52 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

Yes,of course it matters. The lies will kill any chance of R faster than the A's did.

After dday,when they continue to lie,they are showing us disrespect. They are telling us only what they feel we should know. They are still making decisions about our lives,when we are perfectly capable of making our own choices.

And when we are crying and begging for the truth..and they still choose to lie? that,IMO,shows an incredible lack of character. To lie to someone you claim to love about something like *this* is emotional abuse.

LG, these "friends" of his are probably cheaters themselves. Regardless,they are not friends of your relationship. So,if you do decide to give your WBF a chance after the 30 days are up, he needs to NC these "friends."

ETA: You are NC..but yet,he reads all of your posts here..and probably any other forum you're a member of,considering his history of stalking your online activities. When the 30 days are up, you need to be very careful about letting him back into your life. He is going to take what you have written,and use it to manipulate you into believing he has changed. Go slow. REALLY slow. Watch his actions. Make him show you he has taken steps in the right direction to change his behaviors. Just be careful.

[This message edited by confused615 at 10:57 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,10
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7319 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
Lonelygirl10
Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

You are NC..but yet,he reads all of your posts here..and probably any other forum you're a member of,considering his history of stalking your online activities. When the 30 days are up, you need to be very careful about letting him back into your life. He is going to take what you have written,and use it to manipulate you into believing he has changed. Go slow. REALLY slow. Watch his actions. Make him show you he has taken steps in the right direction to change his behaviors. Just be careful.

I've thought about that, and considered stopping to post on here. But it my main outlet right now. I don't talk to any of my friends or family about all this stuff. I do write in a journal, but hearing other peoples' responses to my thoughts really helps me a lot. Do you think it's okay for me to continue to post here?

LG, these "friends" of his are probably cheaters themselves. Regardless,they are not friends of your relationship. So,if you do decide to give your WBF a chance after the 30 days are up, he needs to NC these "friends."

I don't think I could do that. They're his roommates, and they've been friends since high school. I actually like these guys better than any of his other friends. They go to church, and don't do anything bad. They feel safe to me, except I know that they've discouraged him from trying to make things work because they think that as soon as he confessed to cheating, the whole relationship was automatically doomed no matter what he did after that. I think one of the two guys actually told him that he should only have confessed the second A and not the ONS.


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1126 | Registered: Jul 2013
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

Absolutely they matter. My wife agrees.

Lies are lies....agreed.

But lying after discovery is different. While in the affair...delusions happen. When discovery happens....our perspective of our spouses change. There is a definitive intentionality now tied to their choices. Through continued lying after DD our spouses hurt and pain to us changes from "collateral" to "targeted".

Sure, they tell themselves they are doing this to protect us ... But many times, and specifically in my case, lies are done in an effort to protect the WS and keep some hold on their A.

Once the A stopped and the fog lifted... The lies stopped. A full confession was given.

These friends are not marriage friendly friends. They are at the emotional level of H.S. students and are reacting as such. Our spouses made mistakes, I have made mistakes. Fact is we know better so we can do better. This attitude by your friends effectively says "I already know everything and you are stupid". Sound like a fight you had with your parents when you were a teenager?

My wife reminded me last night that it is when I am most confident, most cocky....I am in trouble. A shame we don't emotionally mature as easily as we physically mature.

The older I get the less I know the hungrier I get for more wisdom.

Peace to us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 11:21 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3609 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

People have often said that relationships are not ended because of an affair, but the lies that follow.

I agree I that he's reading every single thing you post, and given his manipulation of you prior (and his stalking and using stuff against you), he is watching you closely and will use it against you. I'm not sure he will take this 30 days and use it wisely.

Do I think you should stop posting? No, you need the support. I would just be VERY VERY wary of HIM. I wish there was a way to have him NOT follow you around essentially having insight into your mind like this, because it's technically not NC when he can see your thoughts.

I worry for you is what it boils down to. I see him manipulating you in the past, and I just feel like I see it happening again in the future. I hope I'm wrong.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
SorrowBhindSmile
Member
Member # 38139
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

you are not crazy...and the lies make all the difference in the world.

The A is horrific. It is devastating and life altering. But the lies....the continued lies after the fact are far, far more damaging and a true R will never, ever take place...because trust will never, ever be rebuilt.

JMO, but for me, R is about rebuilding from the ground up. You are building a new life, a new marriage based on open, honest, transparent communication. Shedding the broken, damaged ways of the past and moving forward together in a new, healthy way. When one of the parties involved continues to lie, continues to deceive....there is no hope for R. When the lies continue, there is no safe environment to work together to promote healing.

Gently, but bluntly, your WH has his head up his arse. He is totally blame shifting and using his "friends" as an excuse to not change his ways and not do the work. The lies DO matter...and these "friends" are full of crap.

You have amazing courage and strength. You have decided what you need and what you demand for yourself and will accept nothing less. You deserve honesty. You deserve the truth. You matter. Your needs matter. You are very brave

hugs to you



Me: BW
Him: WH
OW: My former "dear friend"/neighbor
Married 20+
Kids: 3
D-Day 12/2012
Committed to R 7/8/2013
"Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle"

Posts: 357 | Registered: Jan 2013
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)

I agree...you need support...you need to keep posting. but you also need to remember that he is reading all of your thoughts here..and he will use what you post to manipulate you..just as he has done since at least dday.

Have you changed your passwords to all of your accounts? Did he ever have access to your laptop,or tablet? You should probably run a scan on them and make sure he didn't download any spyware on these things. Your phone too.


You need to dig into this stalking charge that is(was) brought up against him. I think there is way more to that than he told you.

And..yes...you can indeed tell him to go NC with these friends...did they know about the cheating before you did? Did they insist he tell..or did they tell him to keep quiet?

I would also insist on a drug test if you decide to give him another chance. you're an attorney. If he gets caught with illegal drugs and you are associated with him, your professional reputation with be tarnished.

Again, I do think you should keep posting. but when the 30 days are up, you need to be very careful and take things very slowly. Because he WILL use what you have posted to manipulate you. I would also ask him what work he has done on himself in these 30 days..and make him prove it.

[This message edited by confused615 at 11:45 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,10
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7319 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
Lonelygirl10
Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 12:44 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

JMO, but for me, R is about rebuilding from the ground up. You are building a new life, a new marriage based on open, honest, transparent communication. Shedding the broken, damaged ways of the past and moving forward together in a new, healthy way. When one of the parties involved continues to lie, continues to deceive....there is no hope for R. When the lies continue, there is no safe environment to work together to promote healing.

This is how I feel. I know that he told a ton of lies during the A because he was in the fog, but the new lies after I decided to give him another chance are what destroyed me. The TT bothered me, because it would have been SO much easier to deal with all the pain at one time instead of spread out over months. But also the lies about things currently going on in our lives bothered me. Him pretending to take ADs, up until the week before I told him NC, just really destroy me. He kept saying that he was remorseful and that he had gained new respect for me since Dday, but that type of behavior shows me otherwise. I wonder whether he's told his friends about that stuff, or if they only know about the A.


You need to dig into this stalking charge that is(was) brought up against him. I think there is way more to that than he told you.

I've digged into it. I pulled the warrant. I called the cop. I tried talking to OW, and OW's new boyfriend who knows about it (neither would respond to me). I bought software to bring back deleted messages on his iPhone, but it was too destroyed by water. The charges were dropped since OW didn't show up for the trial. I've very good at finding information, but this is a dead end.

And..yes...you can indeed tell him to go NC with these friends...did they know about the cheating before you did? Did they insist he tell..or did they tell him to keep quiet?

They knew about it at the time. She was staying the night at his house, sometimes for whole weekends. They are his roommates, so they had to know about it. He's told me that they kept saying things like "____ you're in over your head." I don't know though if they tried to stop it, or told him to tell me. I know they didn't tell me.

There was one argument we had about a month ago about these friends. He told me that they were asking him why I don't put any pictures up on FB of me and him anymore, and they asked why I didn't invite him to have dinner with my parents (they saw a picture of me and my family on FB). The thing with my parents was a big deal. I hadn't told them that I was trying R with him when they came to visit, so I had to do that before I could just bring him around. I did do that, but they requested that he not come to dinner because they needed time to process. My wBF knew all this. But he told me that he didn't respond to his friends when they said that to him, and that he just walked out of the room. It made me so angry, because I wanted him to defend me. Say something like "I cheated and lied for months. She's doing her best." He didn't understand why I was upset though, and got upset at me for being upset.

I can't imagine ever asking him to cut off those friendships, but I would like to know that he has my back. I want him to defend me when they make comments like that. If he doesn't defend me, then to me, that means that he's thinking the same things that his friends are thinking.

Thanks for the responses. I just really feel like it would have been completely different if he had been honest with me, instead of trying to manipulate my feelings and thoughts. Another example is that he was still seeing his old boss for drinks after Dday, even though he had swore to me that he would never go out drinking with him again. That boss had invited him out with OW a lot, even after she took off her clothes and danced naked in front of them one night before the A started. So, that was a condition of R to me, and he agreed to it. He didn't have to agree to it. But since he did agree to it, he shouldn't have lied to me about it. And another example is that he told me that he had girls asking him to do dinner after Dday but that he said no because all he wanted was me. In reality, he went to dinner with a girl and was on a dating website. That type of stuff is why I'm taking 30 days apart, not the actual A. It's just so frustrating to me that his friends are telling him that nothing he does is good enough. There are plenty of things that he could have done differently that would have resulted in a different outcome.

ETA: I also know that they are upset at me that I asked for NC on my birthday. In what world does that make sense? He's the one that lied and lied and lied. He's the one that confessed to all these lies on my birthday. I didn't want to ask for NC on my birthday. I didn't want him to keep lying until the day of my birthday. How is any of that my fault? If it was his birthday, sure I understand. But me ruining my own birthday? Why be upset at me for that?

[This message edited by Lonelygirl10 at 1:19 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1126 | Registered: Jul 2013
iggyD
Member
Member # 36171
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

You are NC..but yet,he reads all of your posts here...

I've thought about that, and considered stopping to post on here. But it my main outlet right now. I don't talk to any of my friends or family about all this stuff. I do write in a journal, but hearing other peoples' responses to my thoughts really helps me a lot. Do you think it's okay for me to continue to post here?

Lonelygirl10

Would it be possible to ask a couple of the members here whose advice you find most helpful to PM with you?

I know you need the support, but I disagree that you should continue to post your thoughts here because as most have said, he's reading and at the end of 30 days will know exactly which buttons to push to resume where you two left off.

Also, please be careful that you're not using this as a way to still "communicate" with him because you know he's reading it.

As hard as it is, detaching from him for 30 days will be so helpful for you if you'll allow yourself to do it. And you may find that detaching completely after 30 days is also easier - one step at a time.

Please consider focusing on the things you already know and keep it simple:

1. You've already established that you walked away because he's a liar. What his friends, family or anyone else says about it doesn't matter.

2. Accept that you have made the decision for NC for 30 days and work on putting you first. Do something for YOU every day and try to stop re-hashing what you cannot change - which is his past behavior. You cannot make sense of nonsense.

You're young, intelligent, successful, loving, thoughtful, etc. I know you love, him but please start loving yourself more.


2012 was a bitch...but I'm hopeful about 2013.

Posts: 317 | Registered: Jul 2012
Scubachick
Member
Member # 39906
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

For me, 95% of the damage was done from the lies. Knowing that he had already betrayed me, how could he sit there and watch me fall apart..my self esteem crumble as I caught him in each lie. Each time he was caught, he swore that I knew evetything there was to know. At one point he tried to convince me that I was creating things in my head. I actually considered I was going crazy and needed help. My husband believes that it wouldn't have made a difference but I told him we'll never know because I wasn't given that option. He made the choice for me and now here we are. I think my trust would have been damaged if he would've been honest from the start but now it's destroyed because of the lies.

Posts: 642 | Registered: Jul 2013
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

Knowing that he had already betrayed me, how could he sit there and watch me fall apart..my self esteem crumble as I caught him in each lie.

Well summarized scubachick. I was wrong to use the "perspective" word. The facts change after DD.

During my wifes A but prior to discovery she would attend anxiety counseling sessions with me...I had 3 of these sessions before I discovered her A. She was absolutely able to sit there, act the part of the caring wife, and play me like a fool. That sucks, but I kinda get how confusing the situation for her was, at that point it was an EA, she could have still had the belief that it was not as bad as it was and that she still had control, could quit anytime she wanted, the fear she had and the conflict she was avoiding then...and, of course, the selfishness within her regarding her decisions to commit adultery.

But AFTER discovery most of that dissappears...and we are just left with the incredibly selfish behavior that our WS chose to continue after knowing better. We switched to weekly MC sessions (anxiety seemed like a cake walk compared to the atom bomb that adultery is). This is the time period where my wife chose to move her EA to a PA relationship. She continued lying to me, counselor, her sister...didn't matter. She was in it for herself....always was, but after discovery there was no sugar coating it, no getting around the fact...the costs were known and it simply did no matter to my wife...or at least didn't matter enough for her to stop.


I wonder if it is like a wife who lives with a closet alcoholic...discovers he is addicted to it about the same time they discover he has a liver disease, but then he doesnt stop drinking. He knows he should stop, sees and feels the damage, but still drinks. The wife still loves her husband but knows that until he stops drinking all the therapy and weekends away together will not save him or her marriage. At some point you do have to make a decision on how long your marriage will last with one person doing so much intentional damage to it.

kinda don't know exactly where I was going with this...

Regardless....my wife is no longer inflicting this type of damage to our marriage. This is why the lying absolutely has to stop completely....

Hopefully you guys can distance yourself from these "friends". We are never too old to be influenced by those around us.


God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 3:26 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3609 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
ladies_first
Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

I wanted him to defend me.

I want him to defend me when they make comments like that. If he doesn't defend me, then to me, that means that he's thinking the same things that his friends are thinking.

Gently, you are a lawyer, for the next 30 days you will need to defend yourself.

Lonelygirl10, how's your own work on co-dependence coming along?

his friends have told him that all the lies didn't matter. They told him that I never would have been able to get over the cheating, and that he should have just moved on.

I actually like these guys better than any of his other friends. They go to church, and don't do anything bad. They feel safe to me, except I know that they've discouraged him from trying to make things work

It's not just a matter of stopping a bad behavior; an addict must replace every bad behavior with a good behavior.

If he's got a lying problem, AND lives with liars AND works with liars... that leaves one lone voice -- *you* begging him to be a good guy.

Addicts have to leave behind the friends and places that trigger the bad behavior.

Don't enable him.

Work on yourself!

[This message edited by ladies_first at 5:29 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009
Lonelygirl10
Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 6:29 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

1. You've already established that you walked away because he's a liar. What his friends, family or anyone else says about it doesn't matter.

2. Accept that you have made the decision for NC for 30 days and work on putting you first. Do something for YOU every day and try to stop re-hashing what you cannot change - which is his past behavior. You cannot make sense of nonsense.

I think you're right. Even though I'm technically doing NC, I'm still right in the middle of it. I'm not really living my life. I wake up thinking about this stuff, go to work, come home thinking about it, and go to bed thinking about it. The only change in my routine this week is I've been going to the gym after work. I think I just have so much anger, and I think so much of it is unfair, that I don't know how to stop going over and over it in my head.

I had another member PM me today and ask what my hobbies were. She suggested doing a new hobby this month, something that I've always wanted to do. I haven't replied to her yet because I'm stumped. There's nothing really. The only thing I have an interest in dance lessons, but that's kind of a trigger since he slept with his tango dance partner. Plus, I'd only do that with him.

I don't even really have any friends to spend time with. I only have one female friend in this area, and wBF does not like her. She's more free spirited, and hangs out at bars. If I'm telling him that he needs to be alone for a month and not do stupid stuff, then I feel like I'm being a hypocrite if I go out drinking. So I've just been staying at home every night. I read a little, watch some TV. But I mostly just think about all this stuff.

At one point he tried to convince me that I was creating things in my head. I actually considered I was going crazy and needed help.

Yeah, I felt this way too. I suspected that he created fake accounts to give me advice on another forum, and when I confronted him, he told me that I was inventing conspiracy theories. I seriously felt like I was losing my mind. I don't understand how someone who loves me could allow me to feel that way.

Lonelygirl10, how's your own work on co-dependence coming along?

I'm about halfway through a book on boundaries, and just started a book on codependency. The boundaries book has been really helpful to me, and I can definitely see where I have problems with boundaries. The codependency book hasn't been as helpful. I feel like I don't identify with any of the stories that she shares at the beginning. The women that she was talking about were very resentful and felt like they had to do everything for their husbands. I don't feel that way. Most of the time I constantly question whether I'm doing enough for the relationship. Like, whether I'm a hypocrite for going to bars, whether I should give up my male friends, whether I'm not understanding enough, whether I should give up my female friends that he doesn't like, etc, etc. I don't feel resentful over doing too much. I question whether I'm doing enough. So, I'm not sure if I'm really codependent based on how that book has described it so far. Any thoughts?

Regardless....my wife is no longer inflicting this type of damage to our marriage. This is why the lying absolutely has to stop completely....

I am glad to hear that your wife stopped lying to you!

[This message edited by Lonelygirl10 at 6:30 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)]


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1126 | Registered: Jul 2013
ladies_first
Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

From Melody Beattieís classic best selling novel, ďCodependent No MoreĒ Codependency involves a habitual system of thinking, feeling, and behaving toward ourselves and others that can cause pain. Codependent behaviors or habits are self-destructive. We frequently react to people who are destroying themselves; we react by learning to destroy ourselves. These habits can lead us into, or keep us in, destructive relationships that donít work. These behaviors can sabotage relationships that may otherwise have worked. These behaviors can prevent us from finding peace and happiness with the most important person in our livesÖ. ourselves. These behaviors belong to the only person we can changeóourselves. These are our problems. The following are characteristics of codependent persons: (We started to do these things out of necessity to protect ourselves and meet our needs.)

Care Taking
1. Think and feel responsible for other people: their feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.
2. Feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem.
3. Feel compelled Ėalmost forced ó to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.
4. Feel angry when their help isnít effective.
5. Anticipate other peopleís needs
6. Wonder why others donít do the same for them.
7. Donít really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
8. Not knowing what they want and need, or if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
9. Try to please others instead of themselves.
10. Find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others rather than injustices done to themselves.
11. Feel safest when giving.
12. Feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them.
13. Feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
14. Find themselves attracted to needy people.
15. Find needy people attracted to them.
16. Feel bored, empty, and worthless if they donít have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
17. Abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
18. Over commit themselves.
19. Feel harried and pressured.
20. Believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
21. Blame others for the spot the codependents are in.
22. Say other people make the codependents feel the way they do.
23. Believe other people are making them crazy.
24. Feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
25. Find other people become impatient or angry with them for all of the preceding characteristics.

Low Self Worth
1. Come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families.
2. Deny their family was troubled, repressed or dysfunctional.
3. Blame themselves for everything.
4. Pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave.
5. Get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indigent when others blame and criticize the codependents ó something codependents regularly do to themselves.
6. Reject compliments or praise
7. Get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation)
8. Feel different from the rest of the world.
9. Think theyíre not quite good enough.
10. Feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves.
11. Fear rejection.
12. Take things personally.
13. Have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism.
14. Feel like victims.
15. Tell themselves they canít do anything right.
16. Be afraid of making mistakes.
17. Wonder why they have a tough time making decisions.
18. Have a lot of ďshouldsĒ.
19. Feel a lot of guilt.
20. Feel ashamed of who they are.
21. Think their lives are not worth living.
22. Try to help other people live their lives instead.
23. Get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others.
24. Get strong feelings of low self-worth óembarrassment, failure, etcÖfrom other peopleís failures and problems.
25. Wish good things would happen to them.
26. Believe good things never will happen.
27. Believe they donít deserve good things and happiness.
28. Wish others would like and love them.
29. Believe other people couldnít possibly like and love them.
30. Try to prove theyíre good enough for other people.
31. Settle for being needed.
* I have difficulty making decisions.
* I judge everything I think, say, or do harshly, as never "good enough."
* I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
* I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
* I value other's approval of my thinking, feelings, and behaviors over my own.
* I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.

Repression
1. Push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt.
2. Become afraid to let themselves be who they are.
3. Appear rigid and controlled.

Obsession
1. Feel terribly anxious about problems and people.
2. Worry about the silliest things.
3. Think and talk a lot about other people.
4. Lose sleep over problems or other peopleís behavior.
5. Worry
6. Never Find answers.
7. Check on people.
8. Try to catch people in acts of misbehavior.
9. Feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems.
10. Abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something.
11. Focus all their energy on other people and problems.
12. Wonder why they never have any energy.
13. Wonder why they canít get things done.

Controlling
1. Have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment.
2. Become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally.
3. Donít see or deal with their fear of loss of control.
4. Think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave.
5. Try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination.
6. Eventually fail in their efforts or provoke peopleís anger.
7. Get frustrated and angry.
8. Feel controlled by events and people.

Denial
1. Ignore problems or pretend they arenít happening.
2. Pretend circumstances arenít as bad as they are.
3. Tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
4. Stay busy so they donít have to think about things.
5. Get confused.
6. Get depressed or sick.
7. Go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
8. Become workaholics.
9. Spend money compulsively.
10. Overeat.
11. Pretend those things arenít happening either.
12. Watch problems get worse.
13. Believe lies.
14. Lie to themselves.
15. Wonder why they feel like theyíre going crazy.
* I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
* I minimize, alter, or deny how I truly feel.
* I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.

Dependency
1. Donít feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves.
2. Look for happiness outside themselves.
3. Latch onto whomever or whatever they think can provide happiness.
4. Feel terribly threatened by the loss of anything or person they think proves their happiness.
5. Didnít feel love and approval from their parents.
6. Donít love themselves.
7. Believe other people canít or donít love them.
8. Desperately seek love and approval.
9. Often seek love from people incapable of loving.
10. Believe other people are never there for them.
11. Equate love with pain.
12. Feel they need people more than they want them.
13. Try to prove theyíre good enough to be loved.
14. Donít take time to see if other people are good for them.
15. Worry whether other people love or like them.
16. Donít take time to figure out if they love or like other people.
17. Center their lives around other people.
18. Look for relationships to provide all their good feelings.
19. Lost interest in their own lives when they love.
20. Worry other people will leave them.
21. Donít believe they can take care of themselves.
22. Stay in relationships that donít work.
23. Tolerate abuse to keep people loving them.
24. Feel trapped in relationships.
25. Leave bad relationships and form new ones that donít work either.
26. Wonder if they will ever find love.

Poor Communication
1. Blame
2. Threaten
3. Coerce
4. Beg
5. Bribe
6. Advise
7. Donít say what they mean.
8. Donít mean what they say.
9. Donít know what they mean.
10. Donít take themselves seriously.
11. Think other people donít take the codependents seriously.
12. Take themselves too seriously.
13. Ask for what they want and need indirectly ó sighing, for example.
14. Find it difficult to get to the point.
15. Arenít sure what the point is.
16. Gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
17. Try to say what they think will please people.
18. Try to say what they think will provoke people.
19. Try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do.
20. Eliminate the word NO from their vocabulary.
21. Talk too much.
22. Talk about other people.
23. Avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts.
24. Say everything is their fault.
25. Say nothing is their fault.
26. Believe their opinions donít matter.
27. Wait to express their opinions until they know other peopleís opinions.
28. Lie to protect and cover up for people they love.
29. Have a difficult time asserting their rights.
30. Have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately.
31. Think most of what they have to say is unimportant.
32. Begin to talk in Cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways.
33. Apologize for bothering people.

Weak Boundaries
1. Say they wonít tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
2. Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
3. Let others hurt them.
4. Keep letting others hurt them.
5. Wonder why they hurt so badly.
6. Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
7. Finally get angry.
8. Become totally intolerant.

Lack of Trust
1. Donít trust themselves.
2. Donít trust their feelings.
3. Donít trust their decisions.
4. Donít trust other people.
5. Try to trust untrustworthy people.
6. Think God has abandoned them. Lose faith and trust in God.

Anger
1. Feel very scared, hurt, and angry
2. Live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry.
3. Are afraid of their own anger.
4. Are frightened of other peopleís anger.
5. Think people will go away if anger enters the picture.
6. Feel controlled by other peopleís anger.
7. Repress their angry feelings.
8. Think other people make them feel angry.
9. Are afraid to make other people feel anger.
10. Cry a lot, get depressed, overact, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts.
11. Punish other people for making the codependents angry.
12. Have been shamed for feeling angry.
13. Place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry.
14. Feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness.
15. Feel safer with their anger than hurt feelings.
16. Wonder if theyíll ever not be angry.

Sexual Problems
1. Are caretakers in the bedroom.
2. Have sex when they donít want to.
3. Have sex when theyíd rather be held, nurtured, and loved.
4. Try to have sex when theyíre angry or hurt.
5. Refuse to enjoy sex because theyíre so angry at their partner
6. Are afraid of losing control.
7. Have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed.
8. Withdraw emotionally from their partner.
9. Feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
10. Donít talk about it.
11. Force themselves to have sex, anyway.
12. Reduce sex to a technical act.
13. Wonder why they donít enjoy sex.
14. Lose interest in sex.
15. Make up reasons to abstain.
16. Wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependentís feelings.
17. Have strong sexual fantasies about other people.
18. Consider or have an extramarital affair.

Miscellaneous
1. Be extremely responsible.
2. Be extremely irresponsible.
3. Become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that donít require sacrifice.
4. Find it difficult to feel close to people.
5. Find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous.
6. Have an overall passive response to codependency ó crying, hurt, helplessness.
7. Have an overall aggressive response to codependency ó violence, anger, dominance.
8. Combine passive and aggressive responses.
9. Vacillate in decisions and emotions.
10. Laugh when they feel like crying.
11. Stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
12. Be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
13. Be confused about the nature of the problem.
14. Cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
15. Not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isnít bad enough, or they arenít important enough.
16. Wonder why the problem doesnít go away.

Progressive
In the later stages of codependency, codependents may:
1. Feel lethargic.
2. Feel depressed.
3. Become withdrawn and isolated.
4. Experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure.
5. Abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities.
6. Feel hopeless.
7. Begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in.
8. Think about suicide.
9. Become violent.
10. Become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill.
11. Experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating).
12. Become addicted to alcohol or other drugs.

Characteristics of Codependent People
1. We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. This in turn enabled us not to look too closely at our faults.
2. We "stuff" our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts too much.
3. We are isolated from and afraid of people and authority figures.
4. We have become approval seekers and have lost our identity in the process.
5. We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism.
6. We live from the viewpoint of victims and are attacked by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
7. We judge ourselves harshly and have a low sense of self esteem.
8. We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment. We will do anything to hold onto a relationship in order to not experience painful abandonment feelings which we received from living with people who were never there emotionally for us.
9. We experience guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
10. We confuse love and pity and tend to "love" people we can pity and rescue.
11. We have either become chemically dependent, married one or both, or found another compulsive personality, such a workaholic to fulfill our own compulsive needs.
12. We have become addicted to excitement.
13. We are reactors in life rather than actors.

Compliance Patterns:
* I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
* I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
* I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
* I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am often afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
* I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
* I accept sex when I want love.

Control Patterns:
* I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
* I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
* I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
* I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
* I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
* I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
* I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.



"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009
Lonelygirl10
Member
Member # 39850
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, October 9th (Wednesday)

That's the book I'm reading, so maybe it will become more useful as I get further into it.

I read the list you posted, and I'm still not sure that's me. I don't think I have problems communicating my needs. I talk all the time about my feelings. Most of the guys I've dated have said that I talk too much about my feelings. I don't see myself as controlling either. I usually go to the opposite end of controlling, and compromise too much.

I *think* that my problem is more with boundaries than co-dependency, but I'm reading both books.

The boundary book was really interesting to me. It described one boundary problem that forms in childhood, when the mother makes the child feel guilty for asserting boundaries. My mom did that all the time. Any time I did anything that she didn't agree with, she would say "I gave up my career to raise you, and this is how you're treating me?" So I would often just do whatever it was that she wanted me to do in order to avoid feeling that guilt. I see myself doing that with my wBF too. I feel guilty if my opinion is different from his on a subject, and so I just conform to what he wants in order to keep him happy with me. The boundary book talks about developing a sense of self, and how important that is. So, boundaries are definitely something that I need to work on.


29 Bgf
Dday: April 2013
Relationship ended: January 2014

Posts: 1126 | Registered: Jul 2013
Topic Posts: 16