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Just Found Out
User Topic: WH Left with his stuff
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)

I just recently posted about my WH's online cheating here- http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=510642

He came home from work today still acting like he had no idea what I was talking about. He kept "guessing" at what I could be mad at him for. I told him if he refused to tell the truth his stuff would be waiting outside tomorrow. He eventually trickle truthed until he admitted what I already know. But who knows if there's more I don't know.

He kept saying he'd go to counseling, but I was so pissed I wasn't really responding to anything. I needed time to process everything, but within 10 minutes of admitting it he was asking what custody of our daughter would be like. When I still wouldn't talk to him he decided to pack up all his things and leave. Before he left he told me he was sorry for everything, but that was the only bit of remorse shown. He did start to cry when he kissed our baby goodbye.

I don't know how to feel, a big part of me wants to call him and tell him to come back. But at the same time I feel like he should feel the pain I feel ten fold. Why should he get off easy and not have to go through the gut wrenching anxiety I did? Watching my daughter cry when he left seriously broke my heart, and I'm having a really hard time holding it all together. I don't know how I can possibly take care for a 15 month old along with a newborn all by myself.

I'm so mad at him for putting me through this while pregnant. And he sure didn't fight very hard for my forgiveness. I'm usually unable to control tears and always cry when we fight, but this time I showed no emotion. I wonder if that made him think I have already checked out emotionally so there would be no point fighting for my forgiveness. Can he even really be sorry when he was still cheating online two days ago?


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 10:10 PM, October 15th (Tuesday)

Don't beg for him to come back.

He wants to be single? Let him. But don't make it easy for him. Go see an attorney right away. File for divorce. Request spousal support and child support.

Then change the locks. You deserve better than this.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
jjct
Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:31 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

You may not legally be able to change locks, but you can certainly add new ones.

I read your other thread, and agree with sadtoo. I'm sorry.
Filing and having him served starts the process, it doesn't end your M.
There is still time for him to come clean, but at least you are protected.
Get locks for the windows and back gate too - he's too creepy & you really need to be safe from that dysfunction.
Let friends and family know - you need support.
Hugs and comfort and strength to you!


Posts: 6025 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I know he doesn't want to be single, but he also has a hell of a time sucking up his pride to show it. Also, I can't legally file for divorce while pregnant. I do plan on meeting with a lawyer to explore my options and potentially file for legal separation.

As far as he knows, I'm completely done and don't want to work on anything. That's not really how I feel, but I need him to take me seriously this time. In the past I've threatened but never followed through, and things clearly just got worse. He seems truly sorry, and he's okay being the one to leave our house. He asked about custody of our daughter and I told him I shouldn't have to change our lives because he fucked up. He didn't seem to fight that and just asked if he'll still get to see her. So I think he's allowing me to keep this as normal as possible even if it's not what he wants.

I woke up this morning to a text from him saying he didn't admit to everything because he was embarrassed, that he's sorry and has a problem he's going to get help for. He's usually so closed off, for him to admit this was honestly a big deal. And he didn't have to say it, especial since he thinks reconciliation is off the table. He doesn't have anywhere to stay, and we'd use up our whole savings if he continued to stay in a hotel. So he was planning on driving two hours to stay with his parents. I don't want his parents to know our business and what's going on yet. It's our daughters 1st birthday party this Sunday and I don't want it ruined because of my husbands poor choices. Would it be crazy to have him come home and sleep on the couch? If we did live together for a while longer I'm pretty sure I'd file for separation so that it's clear I'm not just taking him back.

I told him we need to talk about what he needs to do before I feel comfortable leaving our daughter alone with him. He was doing all of this with her in the room, which I find to be incredibly inappropriate. He agreed. I was also considering a list of demands for if he wants any chance of reconciliation.

So far I was thinking:
1-Individual counseling
2-marriage counseling
3-being totally open with all electronics and passwords
4-taking a positive discipline class for parenting our daughter
5-no porn or anything blatantly sexual.

I know most people probably think I need to leave him. My circumstances right now just make that really hard, and I don't think it would be physically possible to take care of two babies alone, support us, and finish school. Also, it's hard to hear other people say this is predatory behavior or that he's a creep. I'd say the same thing if it were someone else, but that's just not who I see when I look at him

I'm so strangely calm about everything right now, it's sort of freaking me out.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 9:40 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I just read your other posts.

I think it would be a HUGE mistake to let him back in the house at this point. All you are showing him by your actions is that you are weak and willing to be a doormat.

He has done NOTHING to repair this damage. He has only provided words, which frankly should mean nothing to you at this point.

I know you want to hold your family together, but you are dealing with a lying, sick, sex addict. And this is only what you know. There is probably much, much more.

I know you don't want your families to "know your business" right now, but you are going to need support. You have nothing to be embarassed about and you should not protect him from the consequences of his behavior. If he expects you to enable his behavior right now, he is not serious about getting help.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

So if I don't let him come back yet, do I still give him the same requirements for reconciliation? Or do I need to let him think there's no chance of getting back together for awhile longer?

What about if I let him back for a couple days so he can look for somewhere else to go instead of paying $100+ a night for a hotel? His parents live two hours away and he has to be at work by 7. I can't imagine he's going to be waking up at 4 each morning to get to work, and we really can't afford for him to miss. I don't want to mess this up, and I'm not sure how exactly to proceed. I'm sure allowing my feelings to guide me is a poor choice, but I don't know how else to gauge what is an appropriate response.

My WH is typically in charge of watching our daughter while I do homework. She's really demanding, and won't really play alone. I don't know how I'm going to be able to get anything done by myself. And once I have a newborn, I'm going to be totally screwed. Part of me wants to just emotionally check out and tell him we can live like roommates until I graduate and get a job, then we can split.

Last night I was so numb and preoccupied with processing everything in my own head, I didn't really have anything to say to him. Now that it's sort of sunk in and I've calmed down, I have all these questions. Mainly, I want to know WHY. What did he get from those inappropriate posts that was so valuable to him that it was worth risking his family? Why my baby board of all places, which makes it seem like an intentional slap in the face? Did he assume if got caught that I'd just let it go, or did he just not care? I wonder if it even crossed his mind that what he was doing was disrespecting his pregnant wife.

I also have a lot I want to say to him. I want to make sure he knows what he did is cheating, and also how sick it is that he was manipulating other unknowing people in the process. I want him to know and be embarrassed that the owners of the board are aware who he is and he will soon be banned from the site. I want him to hear in great detail the stress he's caused not only me, but his unborn baby. I haven't been able to eat or sleep, and had a constant pit of anxiety in my stomach. Above all, I hope he fully grasps the hurt his daughter is going to feel for the rest of her life if we split, all because of HIS choices.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
heartache101
Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

First make him go home to momma and pappa! He needs to face consequences for his actions! So what if they know will they support him while he is getting help also help hold him accountable? No comouter no sex tv porn etc.., Let him drive to work at 4 am tough crap for him he should of behaved!!
If they hide what they did they willgo back to same behavior! Bring it out in the light of day!


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3141 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
doggiediva
Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I wouldn't let him come back home...And keep him informed that R is still off the table..The extra $100's are worth it...Even though it sounds hard and it will be a mess at first, you will find a daily routine that works with you and your child/studying, etc and you will thank your stars that you didn't back down and let him come back home...
If you don't have it already, you need some IRL support even if it isn't family..Going thru the process of getting and keeping a support system is a good thing..I think this will do wonders for your confidence and faith in yourself, that you can get thru anything without HAVING to depend on a partner..That kind of knowledge and confidence is priceless..


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 797 | Registered: Nov 2011
heartache101
Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

He has taken a small step by opening up. Good for him now he needs to move mountains for himself and his family. I hate porn and what it does to families! I get it I really do. He has to man up!


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3141 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
heartache101
Member
Member # 26465
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Ok darlin I went and read all his manupulative ways. I would say he is a sex addict but I am not a doctor or psychiatrist. He needs help.
You dont have to divorce and R can still be on the table. I myself would make it a marriage requirement no computer use period no smart phone no tablets etc. Gotta take the drug ftom him! This way you will know if he is serious about his marriage. Get his parents in on it I mean they are going to know let them help hold him accountable. You can do this it will be a hard road and a lot of work from him! I wish you luck honey. When is that baby due? Oh and make him stay at mom and dads till your marriage counselor thinks he is ready to come home, JMO.


There are degrees to which you let people back into your life and degrees to which you let them back into your heart-which, of course, are not the same thing

Posts: 3141 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Indiana
doggiediva
Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 11:30 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Once you are used to living on your own, you will get a lot of clarity..In the process you may find that you do not want your WH back.. You will have better motivation to do what it takes to move on with your life if it turns out that you don't want to R..

[This message edited by doggiediva at 11:32 AM, October 16th (Wednesday)]


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 797 | Registered: Nov 2011
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Ugh, I know you guys are right. It's just hard to accept. We do plan on meeting to talk, I have questions I need answered and we also need to discuss our daughter.

I have a lot of pressure from my family to work things out. I've been told repeatedly that "I owe it to my kids to fix it." I got irritated and told them it's not all on me to fix things, and I'm not the one who created the situation in the first place. Where is HIS obligation?

After doing some reading I'm pretty sure he's at the very least a porn addict. I'm not sure about him being a sex addict.. while we did have a very active sex life, to my knowledge he never had sex with anyone else. But I know he's complained about wishing he had a lower sex drive because it was so exhausting, so maybe he is, idk. He fits the description of a WS to a tee, insecure and always holding everything in.

Baby is due January 28.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Even if you ask him your questions, there is no guarantee he will answer honestly. He's already shown he will lie right to your face. So I think asking him anything right now is pointless.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I at least want him to explain to me why. It's not exactly something he can just deny... I know he did it, and I know there's a reason why. Also, I think I'm pretty good at knowing when he's being genuine. Every other time I've caught him being deceitful it's because I could just look at him and know, so I snooped. I installed this keylogger DAYS after he started this behavior. Things had been going really well, but I had that feeling again. I just knew.

Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
Hope2B
Member
Member # 40474
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I think he needs to face just how serious this is. He's probably not telling you everything either, as that Trickle Truth is likely to come later.

What about if I let him back for a couple days so he can look for somewhere else to go instead of paying $100+ a night for a hotel? His parents live two hours away and he has to be at work by 7. I can't imagine he's going to be waking up at 4 each morning to get to work, and we really can't afford for him to miss.

Now you're trying to give him an out under the guise of "helping" him just for a few days, and imho, that decision would be a HUGE mistake.

So what if he has to get up at 4:00 am to go to work if he stays with his folks? So what if he is paying $100/night? There are cheaper MOTELS nearby, I'm sure.

Make him EARN his place with you and with the kids!


Me: early 60s
Him: 64 yrs old, LTA w/a pro$titute
Married since 1980, no children
DDay: Feb. 25, 2013
Trickle Truth Days: Sept 10, 11, 13, 15 (2013)
His affair--says it was only 8 times 1x/mo, then found out it was 7 YEARS 2-3x/mo

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: out west/west coast U.S.A.
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I am sorry you are here and hurting.

IMO you have already made up your mind and he will be home. You will initially say (and believe)it's to save money so he can sleep on the couch, then after a little time he will slime his way back into your bed and things will get swept under the rug...

It's just what I feel from your posting, and I hope I am wrong.

You need support and you should not be embarassed to reach out for it.

He is out of the house right now, let him stay out and get your ducks in a row.

The behavior he is displaying is at the least, creepy. I would be nervous about him. I know you don't see it this way, but listen to others right now. We dont always want to see what is right in front of us.

I would see the attorney, get info for assistance with childcare and whatever else you may need. Start putting your ducks in a row so you and your kids are protected. Let him go home to his parents.

You can't guilt him into being "good" and you cant make him see what he doesn't want to look at. Loving him won't make him right...he needs to take steps to heal and find his whys on his own. He needs to want it.

Getting him home would mean you have his body in the house, not his heart or his love. Don't settle for that, you and your kids deserve more. If it means your teaching degree waits a year it's a small price to pay for peace of mind.

Dig and see what else you can find...if this is just the tip of the iceberg and he is embarassed about more you don't know what else he is into.

Don't risk yourself right now.

Please continue talking and sharing, we all want you to be ok, and you will be...with time.

Take care of you.


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3249 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Also, I think I'm pretty good at knowing when he's being genuine.

I missed this. ^^^

WE ALL think this way in the beginning. They can become more sneaky and deceitful than you could imagine. The man you think you know isn't "home" right now, he's either gone or has always been like this but hidden it well. He is a liar do not trust his words. Trust your gut....it is probably screaming.


Believe me, the people here see what you can't right now. The collective wisdom is the best around!

[This message edited by karmahappens at 1:52 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)]


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3249 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I do hear you all and am listening, even if doesn't seem like it.

Karma- honestly, you're probably right. While the financial and practical aspects of him staying here are genuine, I'm sure part of it is just that I want him back. I'm positive there is a part of me that wants to just close my eyes and pretend it never happened. What's making it hard to ignore is that I feel numb to it all. I'm not mad or even sad right anymore. I honestly just feel sort of 'whatever' about it. So it's hard to keep my resolve and kick him out for good.

I'm also very familiar with addiction, so I can sympathize with doing something you don't exactly want to based on impulse. So far he's seemed sorry and been willing to do pretty much whatever I want to make this process easier on me. I know that's just the very first step, and I don't plan on leaving it at that. I've made a list of very specific requirements and consequences. I have an appointment with an IC who also does MC should I choose, and also with a lawyer. I plan on looking into all my legal options regardless of my desire to reconcile. If he breaks one of my reconciliation requirements, I'm done and will file for divorce as soon as I'm legally able. So I'd like to believe I'm trying to not rug sweep.

So far I am inclined to believe there has been no physical cheating. But honestly I doubt he would admit it at this point anyway, and any ONS while traveling I'd have no evidence of. I do believe addiction has played a role in all this now that I've read more about it. The way they described escalating seems to fit the situation perfectly. From the keylogger I can see he was looking at really weird porn (stuff I've never heard of, and I'm no prude) that then led to him needing to chat with actual people.

But I definitely do feel like I may not know this person, I was absolutely shocked to see what he was looking at. Nothing illegal but strange enough for me to need him to get help before I feel comfortable handing over partial custody of our daughter. It's just such a weird feeling because I can't connect the behavior with the person I see in front of me.

He did ask me how I found out, and that concerns me that maybe there's something else I don't know about. I've ran scenarios through my head where he asked because he was wondering if he left that one page up or if I've somehow traced all his internet activities. But maybe he's just wondering if I know about the weird shit he's been watching. He has been doing all this on the computer I just bought him for his birthday with money from my college savings, which just makes it even more of an insult. So in anger I told him he would not be taking the computer I bought to continue his activities. Now I'm thinking more clearly and will be giving him the computer back so I can see if there's anything else going on. Although I'm pretty sure he suspects a key logger, I saw he was googling information about the antivirus I installed. So he may be on his best behavior, but it's at least worth a shot.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
doggiediva
Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

I am definitely familiar with that pressure and advice one gets from the parents and the in laws to work out the marriage problems and don't S or D for the sake of the kids...I sensed that part of the motivation for that kind of advice from my parents was the fear that my kids would be dumped onto them at all hours of the day for babysitting..

At this point in time that lawyer appointment will be the MOST important one for you to keep..Formulate the questions you want to ask him and write them down and bring these written questions with you..In the off chance that you get overwhelmingly emotional during the appointment, the lawyer might be kind enough to read the questions and give you verbal or written answers to your written questions..Ask about prenups/post nups, separation, custody anything you can think about...Make this first appointment all about protecting yourself for the immediate future..


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 797 | Registered: Nov 2011
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

^I'm sure that's part of it, my mom already watches my daughter two days a week. We can't afford two rents and I can't imagine my husband staying with his parents for good, so if we split I'm pretty sure I'd have to move in with my parents. And once the new baby comes, they would inevitability assume some unasked for responsibility. That's another reason why I'd consider working things... My parents seriously drive me nuts and the idea of living with them along with two babies already makes me want to scream.

I still haven't given WH any hope for reconciliation, but he scheduled an IC session for himself anyway, and has begged me to do MC. I told him I think he just needs to work on himself right now. I read that recent thread about "what I wish I'd known", and decided to wait a month before committing to anything. If after one month he's still remorseful, completely open, and regularly seeing his therapist then I'll consider MC.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 4:42 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Ask him to take a polygraph. You will set it up.

If he squirms or tells you how "unreliable" these tests are then you know there is more. You may also get a partial "parking lot" confession before taking it if he has the balls to go thru with it.

But many BS's on here have asked for it and get a willing WS who wants only to give whatever their BS needs to feel safe.

A truly remorseful WS will help you heal in any way they can.


Posts: 5524 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

Denial is often the first place we want to go, as it is a comfortable and familiar place to be.

We've all been where you are. There is no way to get through this other than facing the truth.

And why isn't HE setting up all of the counseling appointments if he's so sorry?


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Reality
Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, October 16th (Wednesday)

You're doing great DOmomma. It's a GOOD thing that you're educating yourself and doing the research and thinking of both of your babies.

My WH was into internet activities, also. 99% of what I found were things I would never have thought he would be involved in. I learned things about who he was that I never wanted to know. This is where you are. You are seeing parts of your WH you didn't know about now.

The hardest thing is that your WH is choosing to have these things be part of his life. He's choosing this for himself, for you, and for both of you children.

In the shock of discovery, it can be easy to think of it abstractly, to think he couldn't have understood what he was doing. We all start that way. But you really do have to make him accountable. Those web pages didn't open themselves. The computer didn't magically decide to turn on when he was in the room with you guys.

He CHOSE that.

Keep being strong, even if it feels like you aren't sure what that exactly means. Being strong means making WH have to face reality. Being strong means taking care of both your babies and protecting them from further Trickle Truth disasters down the road.

Do it all now. Keep a united front with both your mind and heart and try not to doubt yourself.

You ARE being strong.


Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2013
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 5:16 AM, October 17th (Thursday)

I'm positive there is a part of me that wants to just close my eyes and pretend it never happened.

I understand this, it seems easier and almost do-able in the moment.

Problem is, when you open your eyes the mess will be there and you will have lost time and valuable pieces of yourself.

Keep them open...walk straight through the mess. It is difficult, but whatever path you end up on R or D you will be ok and we will support you through it.

Stay strong.


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3249 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, October 17th (Thursday)

He actually did make the appointment himself first thing yesterday. I never even mentioned therapy, he told me he was going to do it and asked if I'd also do MC. I said I wasn't ready to commit to that and that he should focus on his issues for himself and our daughter. Even though I'm feeling like I want to reconcile I'm trying not to act on it because I'm sure I'm not thinking logically at the moment.

I don't know what's wrong with me, I actually feel bad for HIM. When he was telling me he loved me I wanted to say I don't know if I love you anymore. But I couldn't, for some reason I'm still concerned with his feelings. Even though he clearly didn't think about mine.

I saw when he was searching for a therapist he was googling sex addiction. So I guess he thinks it's that big of a problem. Don't most sex addicts seek physical sex outside their marriages? This makes me wonder what else has been going on. I still haven't asked him all the questions I have.. I haven't really said much to him at all. I do want to make sure he knows he isn't getting off this easy and will at one point be answering all my questions.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, October 17th (Thursday)

Good for you. Let him start on a road to recovery and do some soul searching.

Continue to take care of yourself.


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3249 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
k94ever
Member
Member # 11176
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, October 17th (Thursday)

Dear DOmamma,

Please don't let the SA thing throw you for a loop. In this day of laying blame for your actions on someone or something, cheaters try using the label "sexual addict" as an excuse for their behavior.

Yes...there really are people who are SA'S and it's horrible, but there are definite behaviors that define who is/is not an SA and they are diagnosed as such by medical professionals. Just because your WS "googled" SA doesn't mean he is one.

All SA's are serial cheaters; but not all serial cheaters are SA's.

Don't focus on the SA label. Only after he is officially diagnosed as SA should you deal with that.

{{{{hugs}}}}

k9


BS: 56
WS: 53
Betrayed: 23 years
Affairs: 14 (2 lasted 3 months. Rest were ONS)
WS died: 16 May 2011
Do not stay in your hurt forever. Choose to move out of it.

Posts: 6330 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: Wisconsin
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

^Are you saying all sex addicts physically cheat?

I read this- "The personality disordered person who sexually acts out for greed and opportunism does so with a sense of entitlement and privilege, whereas the sex addict does so from an unmet need within himself, often from childhood, in which sex is the vehicle to cover that pain."

The latter seems much more fitting to my WH. But I'm still not very convinced his behavior's would qualify him as a SA. Like you said, we will just have to wait and see what a counselor says. I also think he could fit into the porn addict category, except it seems common for them to not enjoy actual sex anymore or have ED. Which clearly isn't the case here. It almost seems likes some weird combination of the two addictions... or maybe he's just an asshole. Who knows.

Should he be meeting with a certain kind of therapist? I know he called our local university because they have a sliding scale fee, so it would be the most affordable. But now I'm wondering if he needs to see someone qualified to treat his specific issues.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

Ugh, so frustrating. I asked my mom if she'd be able to watch our daughter for an hour tonight so we can talk. I didn't want to do it in front of our baby in case I get upset or heated.. even though she can't understand what I'm saying, I'm sure she can pick up on my emotions. My mom said she could, but then proceeds to tell me how I need to stay calm and civil so that things aren't tense for our daughters birthday. This really ticked me off, I've told her repeatedly that her telling me what to do isn't helpful and that a supportive person just listens. It was like she was saying I can't have emotions about all this because that would just be so awkward for HER at the birthday party. Give me a freaking break, where is his responsibility in not ruining the party? I have every right to get mad if I feel the need, and I don't need someone else telling me I need to control myself for an effing party. Especially when I already made it clear that the party would go on as normal no matter what. She then goes on to tell me that I'm being rude and that I have no idea how she is feeling. She always does this, it causes her such terrible anxiety when I have problems in my marriage

Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
Broken1Again
Member
Member # 32211
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

DOmomma09 in ways what you're going through sounds similar to my situation. Although I don't think my WS is a SA but a Serial Cheater. (There is a difference, and yes, I do think yours is a SA, which in some ways is preferential to a Serial cheater, because Serials never hit rock bottom, SAs do.)

Anyways, why your situation is similar is because I always found excuses and reasons why I should let WS back in to the house. I would rationalize and sure enough there we were rug sweeping and just trying to look past everything without any one of us getting help. WS would promise the world, would call around to make appointments to IC, MC, whatever. Some days he would even go too, but then once everything died down, he would stop going.

If you let this behaviour continue, he will start to get worse, eventually when you find out, he will start to blame you for his behaviour and tell you you are the one who needs counselling not him, that you drove him to it, that you are to blame. You will start to believe it, and again you will just want the hurt to go away and will take him back. If this cycle continues you will start to hate yourself and he will in essence be getting away with murder. Your murder actually, because with each time this happens, he is slowly killing you on the inside.

Your mom sounds alot like mine, somehow what is going on with me becomes about her. That's why I don't tell my mom my personal stuff. I just can't. It's to frustrating and somehow I have to console her, or argue with her.

Anyways, think long and hard if you want to offer your WS easy access to you. If you offer it once, you will offer it again and again and again. It sounds like you've all ready offered it to him time and time again. Put your foot down now. I promise you PROMISE YOU that he is not God's gift to women and that HE WILL do this to another woman. He will not turn into the man you've always wanted with another woman (I know we worry that this may be the case, and sometimes that plays into our decision making). HE WILL KEEP DOING THIS TO YOU AND TO ANY OW HE COMES INTO CONTACT WITH.

By having a firm hand and standing up for yourself you may have an actual chance at a normal life with or without him. But by letting him come back with no consequence, you will never have a normal life. He will just keep doing this. Trust me.


BS: 40
WS: 42
Two boys 13/11
Married 15 years
Dday: too Many to remember. 3 significant OW and many "less"'significant OW. Believe WS has bad boundaries and craves the attention.
In R.

Posts: 828 | Registered: May 2011
Reality
Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

It was like she was saying I can't have emotions about all this because that would just be so awkward for HER at the birthday party. Give me a freaking break, where is his responsibility in not ruining the party? I have every right to get mad if I feel the need, and I don't need someone else telling me I need to control myself for an effing party.

Exactly! That you recognized she was pulling emotional manipulation is awesome. Remember that when WH also pulls the "My pain is so SO bad!" party, it's the same deal. The reason you still take his feelings into consideration is because you're a healthy person who was/is committed to her marriage. And just like you said, he wasn't.

Don't beat yourself up for being empathetic - just don't allow them to take advantage of it.

Also, agreed with k9 to beware of the addiction dynamic. My WH didn't really start taking strides forward for himself until he understood that even if you match an addictive personality description, you still have to be responsible for your choices. It can be easy to say, "But, I'm an addict!" and think that's all there is to it.

Nope, that's just the first step.


Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2013
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

I have a question- how will I know if he's making progress through counseling? Since I'd want to see long term progress before committing to MC, how will I know?

Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
PricklePatch
Member
Member # 34041
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

I am sorry for what your dealing with. My the is also SA. I speak with him and his therapist at times every three weeks an other times longer.

My condition of recovery included SA, not just attending but working th program.

IC before MC.

Post nup.

Reading about boundaries.

Working on our communication.



BS
Fwh
sorry post on my tablet

Posts: 243 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: pricklepatch
momentintime
Member
Member # 16394
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

Tell your Mom this isn't about her. Right now you have to focus on you and your daughter's needs. I would tell her if she has something positive to say, have at it. If she just wants to add her two cents, she should hold that thought until you might be more receptive. You don't have to harshly shut her down (not saying you did that), but reinforce your need to make your own decisions, the right to your own feelings, and the right to determine how you will move forward for yourself.


BS-me FWS - him
D-day 8/04
R'd

"Global editing disclaimer - I edit almost everything I post, and I am not going to post why every time."...re: Bionical girl


Posts: 2824 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: New York
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

Well we just had our talk. I started by asking him if there was anything else he needed to tell me. He told me about two secret emails (one I knew about from the key logger and was created for the purpose of joining babycenter...the other I was unaware of and he had lied about in the past when I asked him which email he used for the webcam site). He told me about a list of porn he had saved to his favorites list (I'm really surprised I missed this), and that he had been on dating sites "just to look" and didn't pay to join or message anyway.

I was really surprised he came out with all this with very little probing on my part. The dating sites part stung and made me mad, but I didn't want to punish him for telling the truth so I tried to stay calm. I guess the dating sites part is the worst to me because it's not overtly sexual, and closer to emotionally cheating. He stands by his statement of the cheating never extending beyond the internet, and I (possibly naively) believe him.

He says he doesn't quite know why he does it, that he's been doing it since he was a teen and it feels like a compulsion. That he's tried to stop but that since it's just a click away it's a lot harder to resist than physically cheating. He said he honestly wasn't thinking about me when he did it, which I really don't understand because I was often still in the room.

Beyond that he said all the right things about loving me and our family and wanting to get help. That I make him happy and he wants to make me happy, and that he doesn't know what he'd do without me. He says he's felt physically sick the past couple days from even considering that we may not stay together, and can barely function. I was really shocked to hear these words come out of his mouth- normally he'd rather hold onto his pride than be vulnerable, even if it meant losing me.

I told him how I felt, that I wasn't sure if I even cared anymore. That he'd hurt me repeatedly and that it would probably be easier for me to start fresh with someone new. I told him that the way he would do all this right before having sex with me made me feel like I was just the nearest hole, and that he was just comfortable in our marriage because he had someone always available for sex and who watched the kids. He seemed to be really upset about this and said that it really hurts him to hear that and that he never wanted me to feel that way. I also told him he can get it out of his head that he didn't cheat, and he said he knew.

He clearly wanted to know how we would proceed, but I left it that and told him I'd be meeting with a counselor and a lawyer. He has his first counseling appointment on Monday, and also going to take a parenting class. I'm just lost right now and really don't know what to do. I told him that I wish that I could just pretend it never happened, but I can't. Now I don't know how ill ever be able to trust him again, and I'm tired of living with constant suspicion. I feel relief from having my questions answered, and I do feel they were genuine and honest answers. I just don't know if the long and hard process of recovering from this would be worth it.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

Double posted

[This message edited by DOmomma09 at 9:40 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 11:37 PM, October 17th (Thursday)

Annnd caught in a lie already. I specifically asked him if he'd ever had cam sex again, and he said no. He told me awhile back he had cancelled his account there. So now that I know about this new email of his, I decide to enter it into the "forgot my password" part of the site. Low and behold, it recognized his email and said it sent his password. I was sitting in bed unable to sleep and I just had a feeling I should try it, and boy am I glad I did. I immediately go out and inform him he DOES still have an account there, and demand to know the password. He tells it to me, but says he doesn't remember the screen name. I lie and tell him I don't need the screen name just the email I already know. Then I ask if there's anything he wants to tell me now before I log on. He then proceeds to tell me he *did* indeed have cam sex a second time. He claims it's the only thing he didn't mention, but that obviously means nothing now that I know he's still lying. And the email they sent the account information to I accidentally got locked for 12 hours. Oops. I am desperate to log onto this cam site, I need to see exactly what he did. I told him he had his chance and completely blew it and now not a single word he says matters.

Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 1:15 AM, October 18th (Friday)

I think you're doing good. But don't back down.

I fear you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg here.

Nobody joins a dating website "just to look."

There is more here. Much, much more. Keep digging.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, October 18th (Friday)

Yeah after that I googled the screen name he used for the cam site and found he had profiles on multiple hookup sites in the city where he often travels for work. It looked like he hadn't be on them recently but they were created after we got together. He used his normal password for all of them, so I was able to log on. He hadn't messaged anyone. But after finding out all this along with him using the cam site again was pretty much my breaking point. I told him I may not be able to file for divorce pregnant but I will be filing for separation ASAP. He flipped out and wouldn't leave me alone, begging me to give him another chance. Saying he needs me and my help and that he's scared what he'll turn into without me. I was honestly just disgusted with him at this point and his begging only made it worse. I do not foresee myself being able to forgive this now that I know he's basically been doing this since before we were married.

The kicker is during a rough time when we were dating, he found a mildly inappropriate message between me and another guy (not at all sexual in nature). He was furious and has made me feel guilty for it for years. When he first used the cam site, part of the reason I forgave him was because he brought up how he had forgiven me in the past. Now I come to find out he was on multiple hook up sites the whole time, and had the nerve to make me feel terrible because of one message.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
Reality
Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, October 18th (Friday)

((DOmomma))

I'm so sorry. There really isn't any way to describe the disgust and horror of finding out more the scope of the internet infidelities.

Just like he said, because it's so accessible and easy to engage in multiple ways with, the list gets a heck of lot longer and more involved during discovery that you'd expect. When people get into that, it becomes easier to immerse themselves in those false realities than to stay tied to the real parts of life. It's likely very true that your WH didn't think of you - even with you IN THE ROOM - when he was swimming in that toxic illusion. They become so fixated and obsessive about it, real interactions take more attention and effort and they plain just pick the easier path.

I understand completely about feeling like all we represent are convenient facilitators to take care of the real parts of their lives while they stay in their fantasies, whether that's a "hole" or any other impersonal tool for seeing to their needs.

Here's an agreement and suggestion for how to proceed: just as you told him you would, file for legal separation. Make it inescapably tangible. The whole next section of how you deal with him has to be "in your face" real. He has to be smacked with the real life consequences of him choosing those fake lives.

He's going to panic, like you saw. DON'T TAKE THAT PERSONALLY. By that I mean don't feel responsible for the visible pain he'll be in or any promises he'll be quick to make during that panic - think of it as a junkie's withdrawl. Having to deal with reality - and a very intense and unpleasant one at that - is going to feel like everything is raw and too unmanageable to him. Which is, frankly, too damn bad. Remember, he chose this.

In that panic, WH/WW/WSO(s) start to say some pretty terrible things; blameshifting, gaslighting, projection - they'll try to turn the blame all back on you to make you carry the burden of all that hard reality. Sometimes, they'll go from pleading to accusations within seconds. Be aware of what it is and it will help keep it in perspective. Remember your WH has been lying as a way of life for a long time now. That's going to be his default coping method.

Keep insisting on counseling. Not only does he have to face reality in relation to interacting with you, he has to have other outside sources backing you up.

I know it's hard, but don't comfort him. Any excuse that will come along to self-soothe tends to get taken when they are in the panic mode. That means going back to the internet, trying to pretend things are status quo between you or between him and your daughter, or any way he can pretend this isn't really happening. Don't let him use YOU for that.

We're all with you, DO. Talk it out, double check everything. A lot of the damage that comes with this process happens at the phase you're at now because the WH are so fully immersed in maintaining their access to the fantasy.


Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2013
cliffside
Member
Member # 38803
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, October 18th (Friday)

He needs to see a CSAT. That's the only counselor who can diagnose and help him.

See the lawyer and if you can, see an IC. You're pregnant and you need to take care of yourself. If you can't eat drink ensure and/or make smoothies. After DDay I couldn't eat solids so my IC suggested I make smoothies and it really helped.

The birthday party has me worried. How old will your daughter be -2? She isn't old enough to know if she doesn't have one now. I think the wounds are too fresh and it will be hard for you to put on a front. You and her can have cupcakes, but I don't think you need the extra stress of entertaining and putting on a face. Just my two cents.

My FWH (we're now in R) sees a CSAT and I met with her recently. We talked about how the porn available today is animalistic and desensitizes people. He also has uncovered a bunch of childhood abuse and FOO issues. He used it as a way to manage stress. He also had an LTA that lasted two years.

I drew my line in the sand with him and he threw her under the bus and snapped out of the "fog". After a few trickle truth sessions he started to come clean. This involved him offering me info I didn't know - exact places, etc. Then one night my Mom took the kids and he and I sat down on the couch and I said "you're going to tell me everything. You're going to rack your brain for every little detail. EVERY. LITTLE. DETAIL. And if I find out anything more even a year from now we are done for good." he did. Some people don't need to know, I needed to know. The stuff he told me was so embarrassing I knew he was telling the truth.

Anyhow, just thought I'd share how it worked for us. He still sees the CSAT once a week. She has been very helpful in our reconciliation.

Hugs and strength to you. Maybe your Mom can take the baby and you can get a pedicure? Anything like that can help...


Me: BS 39
Him: WH 41
2 Kids
D-Day: 2/3/13
Broke NC 3/14
Very skeptically in R for now...

Posts: 248 | Registered: Mar 2013
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, October 18th (Friday)

I just don't know how it would be possible to continue even if I wanted to. I'll always be questioning what else there is and if there was any physical cheating. For some reason after all this I still trusted he was telling me the whole truth last night. Now I clearly know better, he's been lying for as long as we've been together. What's to save if there was never a honest and real relationship to begin with? I feel like I was tricked into marrying someone I don't know.

I just want to retaliate and do the same thing to him. There have been times in my relationship where things were really shitty and I didn't think we were going to last. I had opportunities to cheat, and had even daydreamed about what it would be like to be with someone I was actually happy with. I never even came CLOSE to acting on any of it. Part of me wishes I would have, but at the same time at least now I'm the one that still has my pride and self worth.

I'm curious how dating sites play into SA. All the sexual stuff obviously makes sense, but what would the point of dating sites be? I saw with my own eyes he hadn't messaged anyone, so I'm pretty sure he never met up with anyone (at least from those sites). So what would be the point... Just to look at random pictures of women's faces? Facebook could accomplish the same thing, I really don't get it. Unless it was beyond just sexual fantasy and he was actually looking to see what else was out there or enjoyed imagining dating someone else.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
cliffside
Member
Member # 38803
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, October 18th (Friday)

If this has been going on your entire marriage, that would be a deal breaker for me too. I totally understand feeling duped. After I found out the real family I married into (all of the abuse, etc)., I felt like I seriously qualified for an annulment because his entire family and all of the BS they told me were lies! Church going holier than though people who abused their children and the children abused each other.

Anyhow, if this is a deal breaker for you then it's good to figure that out sooner rather than later. But do not leave your home. HE caused this and you and your daughter need some sort of stability right now.

Go see that lawyer and find out your rights. He's a big boy and can find a place to live. You take care of you, your daughter and your unborn child. We're all here to support you.


Me: BS 39
Him: WH 41
2 Kids
D-Day: 2/3/13
Broke NC 3/14
Very skeptically in R for now...

Posts: 248 | Registered: Mar 2013
Reality
Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, October 18th (Friday)

Don't have the retaliation affair. Honestly, DON'T. It never helps. If you look through the threads, there's story after story of how it only aggravates things for YOU. There isn't any way to balance it out that won't hurt you in the long run.

I totally understand what you're saying here:

What's to save if there was never a honest and real relationship to begin with? I feel like I was tricked into marrying someone I don't know.

That's exactly how I felt with mine. My WH's activities pre-dated our relationship by years. That he was "faithful" to them more than he was committed to me has been one of the major stumbling blocks I've dealt with. I'll be honest; there are days six months after DD#2 that I still think about it intensely.

For me, I had to measure HARD how much what I knew of WH was real, if any of it was real. It looked like a wash for a long time. It was only when WH started fighting - ACTIVELY fighting, not token gestures - to be in this reality did I truly consider there may be something to salvage. Prior to that, I was only trying to plan how to extricate me and the kids the least additionally painful and most efficient way.

Only you can measure that real versus fake relationship. Pick what works for you and don't feel badly about it. To be way too blunt, R is HARD. R with people who have issues like both our WH(s) entails uncovering layer after layer of ugliness. If your WH isn't making that be a winning proposition for you, then you're completely right - there isn't much point.

And in the meantime, you and your babies safety and comfort are paramount. Get some comfortable distance. It's easier to see the lay of the land that way anyway.

[This message edited by Reality at 10:24 AM, October 18th (Friday)]


Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, October 18th (Friday)

What's to save if there was never a honest and real relationship to begin with? I feel like I was tricked into marrying someone I don't know.

I feel/felt the same way once I found out that stbx was NOTHING like the person that he had presented himself to me as. The ONLY way that I could have remained was if we kinda 're-set the clock' and he could show that he had the ability to be an authentic, whole person.....and he couldn't do that. So, I was out.

As for the talk of SA -- stop focusing so much on the 'sex' component and look at the 'addiction' portion. The 'sex' doesn't necessarily mean needs/urges for physical sex. My understanding is that it is an addiction -- that is 'fed' by some type of 'need' for sexually-related attention/material. It's more about the compulsivity of the behavior and the inability to 'not' do it (look,masturbate,havesex) even though it (1) goes against what the person believes that s/he 'stands' for; and/or (2) is going to destroy their world (and they know it and do it anyway).


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyL6pa_L4M


Posts: 7253 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, October 18th (Friday)

I saw with my own eyes he hadn't messaged anyone, so I'm pretty sure he never met up with anyone (at least from those sites). So what would be the point... Just to look at random pictures of women's faces?

Are you sure he didn't just delete the messaging history?


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, October 18th (Friday)

^I suppose he could have deleted them a long time ago, but I know he didn't do it recently because I could see the date from the last time he signed in. It honestly doesn't matter either way, it still shows that this extends far beyond what I imagined and that he's still lying.

I had told him to search for a counselor with a sliding scale so we can afford it, and so he has an appointment Monday with a general family counselor. Now I'm thinking that's not enough, and I've found a CSAT counselor as recommended above. I just don't know if we can afford it... But I want him to get well to be a good father to our daughter, so I may have to make changes to how we're living so he can afford to get help. Just add it to the list of ways his problems are going to have lasting negative consequences on me.

I just don't know if I have it in me to be in this for the long haul. I know it's going to be hard and painful, and I don't know if there's any redeeming quality in our relationship to make it worth it. I STILL feel bad for him though, the way he was begging me last night was just so pathetic. He was beyond desperate, telling me all the things I had always wanted to hear. But hearing it now under these circumstances just hurt and made me feel too icky to comfort or reassure him. He's somehow managed to make ME feel dirty, and I didn't do anything. But he dragged me into this and used me to engage in this behavior. I can't imagine ever having a normal healthy sex life again, with him or someone new.

I can't figure out if he's sorry he did it or sorry he got caught. And after our conversation last night I think he was trying to say he didn't think about it being wrong or disrespectful. And I'd imagine an addict to clearly know that it's wrong and feel terrible about doing it but still not be able to resist. He said it just seemed normal to him that he's been doing it for so long, and that he didn't consider my feelings. But if it was so "normal", why the elaborate measures to hide it? He clearly had the foresight to make sure he was secretive about it, which tells me he did think about me and how I would react if I found it. He didn't make it easy to catch him, I'd been suspicious for a long time before installing the key logger. And if someone is still not telling the whole truth, does that mean they're not fully remorseful? He said he was trying to minimize because it's all so stupid.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, October 18th (Friday)

I feel so bad for you and your situation.

I remember early in my discovery process. My XH only admitted to using porn and going to a "few strip clubs" with the guys.

He too swore up and down and on the lives of everyone he could think of that he had never and would never cheat on me. The woman who had called me claiming to have been having an affair with him was just some jealous lunatic who he had rejected and she was envious of our love and our marriage. He cried and begged and said all the right things. I remember feeling so sorry for him and thinking, "He must be telling the truth. Men don't cry like this."

I was so wrong.

The porn and the strip clubs were only the surface. He had had numerous affairs, one night stands, etc, the entire time we were married. He even had one proven OC and one suspected OC with two different OW's. It was insane.

And like you, I had received an innocent email (hi, how are you type) from an old boyfriend that I shared with him. But he flipped out over it and made me feel like crap for years over it.

Sick, sick, sick. The person he presented to me and the person I married was completely different from this predator sex freak. It was one thing to cheat, and it's another to lie, but the scheming and plotting and the double life threw a whole other layer into the mix that was something I could not reconcile.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Reality
Member
Member # 39077
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, October 18th (Friday)

But if it was so "normal", why the elaborate measures to hide it? He clearly had the foresight to make sure he was secretive about it, which tells me he did think about me and how I would react if I found it.

Exactly and almost verbatim the conversation I had with my WH multiple times. No matter how accustomed they swear they were to what they were actually doing, that they thought to hide it proves on some level they knew it was wrong.

My observations from my situation are that claiming the WHs weren't thinking about how it would affect others, or feeling that it was "normal" or "no big deal" or "they didn't mean it that way" are all just hidey holes they have used with themselves for self-justification. In other words, more lies they've told to excuse what they were doing. In this specific case, they were lying actively internally versus externally to us, but yeah, still all a lie.

Yep, I get that dirty feeling, too. I think it's standard for infidelity all around. I think it's also why in the initial list of "What To Do Now" lists, getting tested for STDs is in the upper three suggestions. Infidelity is a terrible violation - physically, emotionally, psychologically, and usually financially, too.

((DOmomma)) You're going to feel bad for him because he was/is important to you. In very real ways, you are mourning who you thought he was. That's normal, too.


Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2013
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, October 19th (Saturday)

We haven't really spoken since DD two nights ago, and the last thing I told him was that I was filing for separation and wanted him out by Monday. So I see on our account that it looks like he put down a partial deposit for an apartment. We very clearly cannot afford the place he was looking at AND our current apartment. I'm sure he knows this, so I'm wondering if he's assuming I'll have to move in with my parents. It'll be a cold day in hell before I move into my parents with two babies while he gets his own two bedroom bachelor pad. Seriously, fuck that shit, why should I be the one penalized for his actions. He went out to check out the apartment today, and I texted him and told him not to commit to anything until we can talk and make a mutual decision on how to proceed. I know I told him he needed to be out by Monday, but that was mainly in anger and I meant find somewhere else to stay temporarily. I feel like telling him he can either stay with his parents and drive his ass two hours to work everyday, or he can get a second night/weekend job to pay for a new apartment here. There's no way to otherwise afford two places, and I really don't need the stress of trying to move on top of being pregnant/taking care of my lil one/going to school.

Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, October 19th (Saturday)

Unfortunately, it appears he is only looking out for himself. You need to get to an attorney on Monday. File for separation/divorce and get spousal support and child support into place before he spends any more of the marital funds on his single lifestyle.

Nice how he says one thing and does another.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, October 21st (Monday)

I guess I misunderstood him, he says that he meant he would try to help out with extra money, but that on top of child support it won't be much. We had our daughters first birthday yesterday, and I'm glad I went through with it. Our daughter enjoyed having her whole family there and playing with her cousins. WH went back later to my parents house to pick up our daughters presents, and apparently told my mom and grandpa that he was sorry that he missed my grandmas memorial, that we had gotten into a fight and he was sorry, and that he has issues and is going to work on it.

The background of this is, on the day of the memorial he started a fight with me because I asked him to pick up books our daughter got out so that I could shower and get ready. He got mad at me for telling him what to do and felt like since they weren't his books they weren't his responsibility. I was obviously upset and told him it was really shitty of him to not be supportive on a day like that, he said just because I was crying didn't mean I was right. I told him if he couldn't be supportive then he shouldn't bother coming, so he didn't come. This was the last big fight we had before I found out about the cheating, and was already questioning my marriage at that point.

My mom of course told me what he said afterwards, and was really surprised by it. I hope it means he truly sees his wrongs and plans to do something about it.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
sadtoo
Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, October 21st (Monday)

He got mad at me for telling him what to do and felt like since they weren't his books they weren't his responsibility.

No, you didn't misunderstand him. He is continuing to lie to you. And telling you that "you misunderstood" is just another way to delay you from filing and locking him into anything legal so he can get into his bachelor pad.

You need to realize that his words mean nothing. And the truth is in his actions.

He got mad at me for telling him what to do and felt like since they weren't his books they weren't his responsibility.

Seriously?? How old is he?? FIVE?? This sounds like an argument you would have with one of your children.

"Why should I pick them up? They're not mine!!!"

And then he he doesn't come along with you to the memorial? What did he do instead? Watch porn?

I don't believe for one minute that he plans on "working on his issues". Heh as shown by his behavior time and time again that he is incredibly selfish and only cares about himself.

If he was really comitted to working on himself and the marriage, he would go stay with his parents for help and support and get into therapy. Not go and rent an apartment where he will have to sign a lease. Also where he will have all the privacy he needs to continue watching porn and other bad behavior.

These are not the actions of a man who is remorseful of his behavior and wants to do better. These are the actions of a man who wants to continue this bad behavior.

You need to protect yourself and your children. Please see an attorney ASAP.



It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
angerisme
Member
Member # 37672
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, October 21st (Monday)

Do NOT ask him back. If you have any hope at all of a monogamous relationship DO NOT BEG HIM TO COME BACK!!! If you do you will likely end up with a serial cheater and professional liar.

As for the kids, you certainly can take care of them. As a matter of fact, my daughter and a new baby puppy kept me sane. I swear, if I had not had to get up and take care of that little dog I would have laid in bed for weeks unmoving.

Please talk to a lawyer DO NOT TELL YOUR HUSBAND! so you will know what to do! You will not be able to make any decisions right now. Just eat or drink protein shakes, get some sunshine every day, and love those babies. It might be great if you moved back with your parents for a few months. DO NOT BEG HIM TO COME BACK. HE HAS TO KNOW YOU MEAN BUSINESS IF YOU PLAN ON BEING MARRIED TO HIM FOR 20+ YEARS.


If they cheat once and only show remorse when they get caught...GET A LAWYER! Dont waste 10 years only to learn you've been manipulated for a decade. Youth lost to betrayal is a terrible foundation for the rest of your life.

Posts: 81 | Registered: Dec 2012
doggiediva
Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, October 21st (Monday)

I don't think you should have to be the one to move in with somebody else unless there is no other choice.....You have yourself AND children to worry about..

HE was the spouse who went crazy with his behavior..

Have your separation agreement include exclusive use of the apt for you and kiddos..

HE can be the one to move from place to place to stay with friends and family, YMCA, etc,etc, since there is only ONE of him for these places/people to accommodate...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 1:29 PM, October 21st (Monday)]


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 797 | Registered: Nov 2011
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, October 21st (Monday)

Oh, there is definitely no begging going on on my part. He's the one begging to stay. I actually think how calm I've been freaks him out, because I'm normally really emotional. I did get really upset when I realized he was going to be getting his own place while I was stuck at my parents with two babies. After I confronted him about how I'm getting the shitty end of the stick when I didn't even do anything, I saw he was looking for super cheap studio apartments instead of the two bedroom he had picked out before. I told him he should be the one to live with his parents, but he did have a good point about the financial aspect. Honestly, his gas driving for four hours a day would cost more than getting his own place. So I do understand his point of view there. He says he just picked the only place that had an immediate opening because I had told him in anger that I wanted him gone by Monday(today).

As far as his reaction to the books, yes that was incredibly childish and selfish behavior. Apparently he wanted praise for cleaning for an hour, when two days before I spent 12 hours organizing our whole house. So when I asked him to get the books, he felt like he was doing everything and I was bossing him around. Even though that was literally the only thing I had asked him to do that day. I brought this up during our talk, and he agreed with me that it's an ego issue that he needs to work on. He even admitted that he has a hard time seeing things from other people's perspectives, and that he gets way too focused on himself. He also said he's terrible at reading me and needs to ask me how I'm doing or what I need. These were all great things to hear him admit... until later that night I found out I was getting trickle truths about the extent of his online cheating.

I am glad he took the time to apologize to my family though, they were hurt and offended that he wasn't at the memorial. Whether or not we reconcile, it needed to be done. Of course my mom's reaction is that it showed how much he loves me and how hard he's trying to make things right. She doesn't understand that his words mean very little to me right now. She did say he looked like he was going to either pass out or cry, so I do secretly take a little bit of pleasure in imagining how uncomfortable that must have been for him

I did make an appointment with lawyer through my university because they often offer help pro bono or on a sliding scale fee. But the wait was pretty long and I couldn't get in immediately, so now I'm wondering if I need to go somewhere else. Between the counseling and lawyers for both of us, we're hardly even going to be able to afford to divorce.

He has his first counseling appointment today, so we'll see how that goes. He knows that for now I just don't have it in me to try and work on things, but that I can't file for divorce while pregnant anyway. So if in time I see him making real progress, if he's completely transparent, takes a parenting class, and keeps up with counseling- only THEN will I consider marriage counseling. He is also very aware if he EVER EVER does any of that a single time more, including watching porn, it's immediately over 100% for good. So right now I'm just gonna focus on me and the babies, while keeping a distant eye on how he progresses.

[This message edited by DOmomma09 at 1:44 PM, October 21st (Monday)]


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
RippedSoul
Member
Member # 40055
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, October 21st (Monday)

Oh, my, DOmomma! I'm so sorry you're here and that you're going through all this misery!

Although not an expert on SA (unless living with one for 22 years makes me an expert), I can tell you that your husband DOES sound like a candidate. That does NOT excuse his behavior, but in some strange way--for me, at least--it helps to explain it. Trying to wrap my mind around him, his disease, his behavior, and how it all affects me and our children is important. And it's key to our possible reconciliation.

In S-Anon, a common saying is, "You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it." After 8 years of hearing it, I finally "get" what my husband means when he says his "acting out" isn't about me. He's not choosing someone else because he isn't satisfied with me, because he doesn't love me, because he's bored with me. He acts out because he's an addict, because he's broken, because he doesn't have healthy coping behaviors. And each time he acts out, he feeds the cycle of shame--which compounds all his issues.

Whether you leave your husband or not is ultimately your decision. You might want to postpone a permanent decision, though, until you see if he can get himself into recovery. Ultimately, recovery is for him, but it affects you and your two children, too. He WILL be a part of your life forever because of them and you do want him as unbroken as possible. That seems unfair, but it's true. SA is a progressive disease. It starts with porn/fantasies and progresses in all sorts of directions.

My husband is NOT a deviant. He's never done anything weird--just soul-shattering to me. The dirtiest I ever felt was when he confessed (the confessions when they're in recovery are incredibly painful) that when he was in an active addiction phase, he would (TMI warning) "masturbate inside me." What a winner! What a way to make me feel special! I tell you that, though, so that you'll understand why your husband can make love to you--even twice in a day--and still be acting out. The beast inside is still not tamed. What seems intimate for you is only fulfilling a base need for him. And it's never enough.

The good news is that there IS hope and help for sex addicts. The road is long and hard. If your WH is intent and focused, though, he can do it. If not, then he can't. But it involves a CSAT, a 12-step group, a sponsor, reading. The I Can Relate link is a great place to go and to educate yourself about the reading materials for sex addicts and spouses of sex addicts.

Another truth you'll find in the Spouses of Sex Addicts thread is that--especially in early recovery--you'll NOT find out the whole truth. They aren't lying like serial cheaters--to get away with more; they're lying like addicts--to save you and themselves from the horrible shame and toxicity of their behavior. They're NOT proud of themselves. There's a saying for an addict who's not in recovery: "If his lips are moving, he's lying." So you have to read his actions--if he gets to that point. Here are the actions you'd look for and could trust:

Is he going to a CSAT? If so, there'll be a disclosure statement after a few months that will give you MUCH (supposedly all but often not) of the truth. You can get permission from your WH to meet with the CSAT and ask your own questions. To verify.

Is he going to a 12-step group? Does he have a sponsor? Does he meet with him often?

Has he given you ALL his passwords? Has he put a GPS track on his car (mine just did that for me) so you'll know where he is and where's he's been? Is he open with his computer viewing? In a place where you or your children could see what he's up to?

Every situation is different, so you have to tailor your boundaries and your needs to your husband's particular weaknesses. As for his living situation, I get the no money thing. We have none. We couldn't live separately. That doesn't mean we have to be in the same bed/room, though, or to be intimate. Even if we ended up divorcing, I'm not sure we'd be in two different houses. Our joint income is only enough for one family--and not even that.

Bottom line, protect yourself and your children, love them, continue--however possible--to get that teaching credential, do NICE things for yourself that empower you (even if it's educating yourself about SA), check out S-Anon for yourself (so, even if you divorce your WH, you don't end up with another addict), improve yourself somehow (fix ONE thing that bothers you about yourself--just for the self-esteem boost it gives and for the distraction/goal it creates).

I spoke with my ecclesiastical leader yesterday about some of the issues I've been facing recently. He was floored and is in awe of my strength. I am, too, quite frankly. Do I break down and cry? Absolutely. Do I give up sometimes? Momentarily. Do I love my husband? Yes. Still. Is that enough? Maybe not. Am I resolved that I will make it through this trial, as unscathed as possible? Of course. I will be a better person. I didn't seek this out, but I believe that challenges build character (I'm gonna need to rent a U-Haul after this!!!).

Prayers and well wishes for you as you navigate this journey. It sucks. It's not fair. It's excruciating. But you will survive, short term, and thrive, long term. Hugs!


BW: 49
SAWH: 46
M: 22.5 yrs
TT: Nov 12-Jan 13
DD: 20; DD: 18; DS: 16; DS: 14

Posts: 312 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: California
DOmomma09
Member
Member # 39920
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, October 21st (Monday)

^Thanks, that's all really helpful to know. He had his first counseling session earlier today, and was there for two hours. I guess his counselor wants me to come next week, but WH said he's not sure about that yet because he still has more he wants to talk about privately first. I'm hoping he can open up, I know from experience it can be a lot easier to talk to a stranger. Also I had told him I wasn't going to commit to MC until I see progress, but I think I'd be okay meeting with his IC once just to see what she has to say about everything. I do get the feeling he's ashamed and embarrassed by his actions, I just hope that it's genuine. I found the post about "everything a WS should know" and plan on having him read it because it explains exactly how I'm feeling REALLY well.

I really want to know if he's sorry because he knows how wrong it was, or if he's just sorry it hurt me. That does make a difference to me, if he thinks this would be a problem for him even if we weren't together. I want to give him a chance to tell me the truth and not what he thinks I want to hear, and ask him if he's doing this for himself or for me. Because I know an addict can't change if they're doing it for someone else. I'm considering telling him that if he's otherwise okay with this behavior, he's more than welcome to do as he pleases and we can continue to live together, just not be together, until I graduate. I don't know that I really mean that, but I figure if he wants to have his cake and eat it too this may be a good way to find out.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Jul 2013
RippedSoul
Member
Member # 40055
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, October 21st (Monday)

I'm glad my novel was helpful. :). I DO think that most addicts know their behavior is wrong. The experts use the phrase "shame cycle" for a reason. Addicts find a thousand reasons for justifying their behavior, but deep down, they know it's wrong. And the deeper into recovery they get, the more their "fog" (to put it in familiar terminology) lifts.

There are "gateway" behaviors for most addicts--things that are normal in the general population: a drink with dinner, several at a tailgater; oogling a hot woman; masturbating; gambling when on a cruise ship or when in Las Vegas every 5 years; overeating at a delicious restaurant. It helps addicts explain that they're doing nothing wrong.

I have a 15-year-old son and our faith teaches that masturbation is unacceptable. As the wife of a SA, though, when my son came to me, in tears, because he felt horrible that he'd been masturbating, I assured him that the actions were normal for a healthy teenage boy. I then went on to explain, though, that it wasn't ideal and why. I also discussed the dangers of it escalating. It evolved to including a discussion about pornography and how it demeans women. I am DETERMINED that he will not start that shame cycle.

Does that make sense? It's all so devastating.


BW: 49
SAWH: 46
M: 22.5 yrs
TT: Nov 12-Jan 13
DD: 20; DD: 18; DS: 16; DS: 14

Posts: 312 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: California
Topic Posts: 59