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User Topic: I am feeling horrible.
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

I feel horrible. He cheated and I ended the relationship. I'm trying to be strong and say enough is enough (isn't the first time we are dealing with ONS). I am afraid I'm making a big mistake. I know he loves me. Our family and business will be turned upside down. How do u forgive and try again when you did forgive before and before and before. I hate that this has happened. We had issues but I thought we were happy.

Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
iwillNOT
Member
Member # 40605
Default  Posted: 8:12 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

(((AlexFL)))

I have been following your posts, and I am so sorry for the pain you are enduring.

It seems as though you had only the choice to keep with the status quo( he cheats, you forgive, repeat), or to draw the hard line and say no more. I feel the decision you have made to no longer tolerate being cheated on and lied to, is a very loving act towards YOU. You are valuable, and you deserve love, respect, loyalty, truth, trust. You are valuing yourself now in a new way; his response is his choice and his to own.

Please stay strong and know you have supporters here.


Me: BS, 43
Him: WH, 44
Together 21 years
Married 14 years
Kiddos 2,6,8,10
Dday#1 2004, 3 years after EA/PA co-worker MOW
Dday#2 8-6-13, 13 months EA/9months PA with co-worker MOW - caught not confessed
Rugsweep now, pay later. Ask me how I know.

Posts: 512 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest
Raven96
Member
Member # 40298
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

I am so sorry. He has hurt you over and over. Enough is enough.

He didn't care about your family and business being turned upside down when he continuously cheated.

This will get easier. You have to stay strong for you and your children. Not having to worry about where he is or what he is doing is going to be so refreshing once you're past this first part of uncertainty.

I am keeping you close in my thoughts.

(((Alex)))


Marriage isn't a test, so why cheat?

Posts: 379 | Registered: Aug 2013
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

Thank you all so much. I just feel like I should be tougher. We were together since teenagers. He is all I know. For me to say forget it happened and come home, puts everything back together except me. If you knew us a few years back you would see how good he was to me. I have no idea what happened and why it became ok to cheat and lie. He has told me that he can't do this to me anymore and that I need to let go. He is sorry. He says he holds on to hope that somehow this could work out but he knows that is selfish. I told him the forgiveness would be the easy part. The insecurities and untrusting and suspicions are the hard part. I don't believe him now when before he was all I ever believed in. I don't know who I am without him. I don't know if I want to know. He hasn't been an angel, he isn't very social, he gets grumpy but he always made me feel special, always a hard hard worker, always did the best for his family. I just wish I could get him to open up about what changed a few years back. I don't want to believe this has always been going on. But I do believe this has been happening the past few years. How do you let go of someone you were so close to. It's like I'm having to cut off half of me. I just don't know if I'm strong enough to do this. Idk if I can tear my family apart. I just also don't think my mind can wonder and be suspicious and resentful either. It's not my nature. I hardly feel there's a glimmer if the person I was left inside. I was happy, always smiling and laughing. And after the 1st infidelity issue my insides turned dark. I've tried and tried. Only to be disappointed again. I am such a wimp. I should have did FU. YOU WORK ON YOUR ISSUES ALONE - stop dragging me through this crap--I'm outta here-- but I just can't say for sure im ready to handle that. He has been my best friend for 24 years. We barely ever made connections with anyone else. We were a perfect balance of friends, fun, crazy(good crazy). People were so jealous of what we had. He asked if we could see a counselor. I said I don't know if I want to spend another year working on things like we did this past year, just to end up in the same situation. I really really though last year was the last time we would ever have to worry about this infidelity stuff. It was going great. The last 9 months were like old times. So why did he do it again. Why??

Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
SerJR
Member
Member # 14993
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

Alex... a gentle 2x4...

If he loves you the way you deserve to be loved, he would stop. Period. Repeat that to yourself however many times it takes to sink in.

FWIW I felt the same way when I went through this. It was hard when I thought I had caught glimpses of the person I thought my xw was. But that's just it... she wasn't that person. I was holding her up to the bar I had set and she wasn't willing to reach that high. My conditions were not unreasonable by any stretch of the imagination. I had a hard time reconciling the difference between who she was and who I thought she should be. But eventually I realised that those two weren't the same and that I had to let go or get dragged under the surface for good. I still coparent with her, and to be honest, I think my willingness to stick up for myself prompted her to take a look at her own self improvement as all that was left was her. But that never would have happened if I had done otherwise. It takes action to make change. And it takes courage to take action.

Maybe he will make the necessary changes and you will reconcile. Maybe he won't. But you have to be willing to let him come to that on his own... and part of that means willing to walk away.

I don't know who I am without him.

When you've lost your way, you've gotta look inside. There is something there. There's always something there. Maybe it's just a faintly glowing ember, but if you can stoke it, it will light the fires of truth, love, and courage to serve as a beacon to light your way.

(((Alex)))


Me: BH - Happily remarried.
Hope is never lost. It exists within you - it is real. It is not a force in and of itself - it is something that you create with every thought, action, and choice you make. It is a gift that you create for yourself.

Posts: 17100 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Further North than South
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 11:05 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

I really appreciate all the responses. They help tremendously. I found that I really don't have anyone to talk to. I don't want to discuss it with the few friends I have. I find in still protecting his honor but at the same time I don't want to be embarrassed or mortified by telling them this has happened again. What if there was a reconciliation. Then they'd look at me like I'm stupid. I have allowed myself to be mistreated the last couple years. (Prior to that I can't complain. Like I said we have regular issues but we were strong together). I'm so sad for myself that I feel I can not make a decision or anything without his approval or maybe not approval but without his input. Why didn't I get angry and leave? Why am I compelled to continue to take this when I know I can't. Am I that afraid of change it is it truly that I believe this to be more of an illness and how can I turn my back on someone I their time of need. What about my needs. I don't deserve panic attacks everytime he is late, or goes out. I am obviously very shaken cause my posts are reflecting insanity and I apologize. It feels better to get it out and discuss it but it's been a couple weeks and I still frozen afraid to make a move in either direction. I feel like mentally I'm not able to keep on this emotional wave. I feel useless and hopeless. I know I'm a good person but I feel so guilt ridden to end this and see how bad he is hurting and at the same time I feel numb and not really present.

Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
SerJR
Member
Member # 14993
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

What about my needs

Well... do you have an answer for this? What are your needs?


Me: BH - Happily remarried.
Hope is never lost. It exists within you - it is real. It is not a force in and of itself - it is something that you create with every thought, action, and choice you make. It is a gift that you create for yourself.

Posts: 17100 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Further North than South
idealist
Member
Member # 9462
Default  Posted: 11:38 PM, October 29th (Tuesday)

Hi Alex,
There are two things which grabbed my attention. The first I share with SerJR and it is this:

I don't know who I am without him. I don't know if I want to know.

Alex, I am so sorry for what this seperation means - a loss of identity. To be ripped apart. You merged your identity with this guy and it seems that felt really, really good. There is a rich skein of consequence here for you. (Why was that so important?) It will take time and it will not be easy. But on the other side there will be a more whole and complete Alex. This should have been a part of the last 24 years no matter what, Alex. You're worth it.

The second notion is that you continue to take responsibility for whether the relationship "works" as he has made his wishes clear (let's just put this behind us) and you "seem" to be the one preventing a "happy" future. F- that, that my brother. You have allowed yourself to be manipulated in the past. Call this for what it is. The baseline is that he threw the relationship (and the business, all of it...) away. Any discussion must start from there - that is the basseline. (not the lie of the apparently happy home).

Alex, take care of you (and the kids). If a reconcilliation is to come at some future time it will come because he has matured in this area of his life and can actually be a full partner to you. (I believe people can be "mature" intellectually, spiritually, etc, but still be selfish adolescents in their primary relationships)

It is early Alex. Give yourself time to figure this out. Get to know yourself and your needs! And feel your anger, feel yourself.


Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Southern California
Raven96
Member
Member # 40298
Default  Posted: 7:14 AM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Hi, Alex. This was on my FB page this morning and I thought of you:

"Sometimes the smallest step in the right direction ends up being the biggest step of your life. Tiptoe if you must, but take the step."

It applies to all of us, but I especially thought of you this morning.

I hope you were able to get some sleep last night. Do something for YOU today. We are all here for you!

(((Hugs)))


Marriage isn't a test, so why cheat?

Posts: 379 | Registered: Aug 2013
betrayedme2
Member
Member # 40639
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Alexfl, We can relate. After spending that many years with your partner, it's hard to see yourself without the other person. I was together with my wife for 22 years. At first it was nearly impossible to see myself without her. But she hurt me, repeatedly. She also hurt our kids and family, not physically, but emotionally. It's not a life I could continue. I loved her dearly, but the love was not returned. Fortunately we're trying to reconcile without divorce. But there came a time when I had to stand up and say NO MORE and I came to peace with a divorce. When she KNEW I was serious, I could almost see the light bulb flicker in her head. I too didn't, and haven't, told anyone for the exact reasons you mentioned. Only you know what is right for you and your situation. I'm glad I didn't with a R going on. If I had chosen D, everyone would have known. Be strong, stand up! If D is in the cards, friends will know. It's understandable to be afraid of their pity or their judgment. It's all so difficult and I wish there was a magic pill to give the WS. You'll read here of people who had to D, then enter into reconciliation.

I'm sorry you're here. I know you've been struggling. If you go the route of D, you will find yourself again and you'll LOVE yourself. Have confidence in yourself. Your business wasn't all him, I'm sure you're a big part of that success. Take pride in what you have accomplished, don't let his actions tarnish YOU. You know you deserve better. You know your family deserves better. You've given him chances and he makes his own choices. We are powerless over the choices they make, but have the POWER to make OUR OWN choices too. You DO what YOU need to do.

If you choose to R, YOU hold the power and he follows the rules that I'm sure you've read here and have of your own. Going out by himself after work? NO MORE! Coming home late from work. He's on the phone with you from the time he steps out of work to the time he walks in the door. I'm sure you (have other rules.
If you choose D, it is NOT the end of the world! That was hard for me to understand. You'll get through it, survive, and thrive! I sympathize with you there also. They're the only reason I didn't D, and the reason I waited so long and gave so many chances to my WS until the time I felt there was no alternative. I'll have to let others speak to how kids bounce back, and I know they do.

Wish we could all be there to give you hugs personally, but for know, here's a big electronic hug coming at you! (((AlexFL)))


dday: 1/19/13
ME: mid 40's
WW: low 40'3
2 daughters, 17, 21
Reconciling

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, October 30th (Wednesday)

(((Alex)))It does feel horrible, even when it's the right thing to do.

Even when you've been placed in an untenable position, with the person who's supposed to be your partner, the one who is supposed to love you the most and place you above all others, chooses to place YOU in the position of doing HIS dirty work: ending a marriage he, really, already left, it hurts like hell.

And when YOU feel responsible for the end of the relationship, it feels even worse.

Thing is, you didn't end it. He ended it the moment he touched another woman. And he knew that. He chose to do so anyway. Maybe he figured you'd stay. Maybe he figured he'd engage in a game of chicken with you, daring you to end it, but believing you would not.

To this day, my husband insists I ended our marriage. We've been separated for over 3 years, after YEARS of infidelity and lies. But it's somehow easier for him to believe I ended it. Whatever. It ended the first time he walked into a strip club, really. Because even though that predates me kicking him out by a good couple of decades, that's when he left the marriage.

Alex, your husband did the same. He left the marriage already.

YOU did not end the relationship.

He did. With his decision to cheat.

Nevertheless, I completely understand the sense of responsibility.

Don't buy what he's selling. This is not your first experience with infidelity. That, in and of itself, tells you how seriously your husband takes you, takes marriage at this point.

But remember: no decision you make, really, is irrevocable. If at some time in the future your husband chooses to step up to the plate, and take REAL action to become a safe and trustworthy partner--there is NOTHING to prevent you from re-establishing ties and working to create a new, healthy relationship. Then again, there is nothing that requires this of you; if you've reached your breaking point, that's okay, too. That he chose to place you in this horrendous position is ...well, all on him.

HE made the mistake, Alex. You are doing the only sensible thing to do in your situation: protecting yourself, keeping yourself safe, learning that you CAN live without his chaos (and that, likely, you prefer this to the walking on eggshells living with a cheater requires).

This isn't about your marital issues, or your happiness. It's about his brokenness.

If and when he chooses to address this, you can reevaluate your decision.

In the meantime, yes--it sucks. Family and business do suffer.

What sucks the most is that the person who was supposed to be your partner in all of this CHOSE IT FOR YOU.

Please be gentle with yourself. Start by removing the responsibility for the end of the marriage from your shoulders.

Then, on a more basic level, make sure you are eating well, exercising each day, getting enough fluid, and getting as much rest as you can. These things help.


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8841 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
betrayedme2
Member
Member # 40639
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Just wanted to add to my earlier post. Once I made the decision to D, I can't explain how much weight was lifted from my shoulders. I came to peace with it and accepted it. I know I quoted here before abut PTSD that you first have to accept that it happened and that we're powerless to change the past. I accepted that it happened, I was powerless to change the past and powerless to make choices for my WS, and accepted I would D. I was no longer scared. If you choose to D, I hope you have the same experience.


dday: 1/19/13
ME: mid 40's
WW: low 40'3
2 daughters, 17, 21
Reconciling

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Each time this has happened I swore I'd be stronger. I made a plan In my head. I'd pack up and leave and never look back and who cares if everything crumbled- but once again that is not the case. This time it has been a roller coaster but I'm more calm then last. Do to get me wrong- the anger comes and goes, the water works and self doubt creep in, but there's something different. He really wants to R. I really don't care at this point. If we R fine. If we D. Fine. (I say that but it scares the hell out of me). He is a manipulater. I realize that. He should have been an attorney. The great conversationalist. However I just really do not know if I want to R and try to fix it AGAIN. I want to get help and find out why I'm so codependent. I want to exercise without feeling bad. I want to not worry about anyone except me and the kids. I told him if he comes back I can't think of us as a committed relationship. I just can't. It's the only way I can not care where he is. It's not a way to love I know but mentally I am really tore up and list and stupid and I just want to scream and then I see him and I feel bad for him. Ugh. I really still do not know what more I can take. If we R I can tell u I will not have sex with him. So what kind of life is that. I could not have sex with him without a condom. I'll never trust him. I know people R and get through it but i just spent 9 months thinking it was all good- I thought we had R. But slap- here I am again. I wonder if I was independently wealthy or had a skill to earn enough to raise the kids - would I even give him the time of day- or am I just talking tough. I feel during this time that I have withstood so much and that I must be like a battered person in a sense that I know its wrong but yet I stay. I need a good job. Lol.

He is coming over tonight. I don't know why. All I do is tell him what an a%#hole he is and make him feel worse. I told him it won't work. How could we try AGAIN. Why would he want to continue doing this to me if he loves me so much?

I have thought of the future without him and with him. I have to work out. I want to keep my body in great shape. I started thinking - if in not with him- how will I go to the gym, how will I ever have me time. Then I took a step back and said he didn't walk me to the gym everyday and make me workout. Why am I setting myself up for thinking the worst. Maybe I'll get to work out even more cause I don't have to worry about rushing home to make sure he is there. I know I'm rambling but (the gym has been my savior- I was very scrawny growing up and going to the gym makes me feel do much better about myself, he seems to think that is superficial to go in the midst of this chaos- I think its a necessity. Thanks for listening. Sorry I'm all over the place with my posts. I just want to vent and get it all out. I hate myself right now. I hate that I'm not strong. I hate that I am this dependent on someone who cheats on me and has no excuse as to why.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
betrayedme2
Member
Member # 40639
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Hey AlexFL, I was taking one last look before I sign off for the night. My wife is in a meeting after work tonight an hr away from home so my mind is reeling. This is the town she used to work and "he" still does...

Good luck tonight! And no, going to the gym is not superficial. Even with kids you deserve "me" time and if the gym gives you comfort, go for it!!!! (I could use a little more time there myself! )

Hopefully you've spoken with an attorney and have a financial profile of you, your husbands, and business. The attorney should be able to give you a very close estimation of what kind of settlement you could expect.

Again, good luck!


dday: 1/19/13
ME: mid 40's
WW: low 40'3
2 daughters, 17, 21
Reconciling

Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Had a long conversation this evening with WS. I tried to explain that since we've been down this path a fee times before and that nothing has changed, no attempt for counseling etc I really don't see how we could ever R.

He didn't fight it. We did bring up lots of other things that bothered us in the relationship.

Is it normal that when someone betrays you and really hurts you that your mind then recalls every thing they have ever done to hurt u. He keeps saying I should be glad to get rid of him because I keep telling him of all the awful things he has done in our 24 years.

I told him that I didn't really relive the past daily but after this latest infidelity I have been flooded with all the shitty things he has ever done. I feel that it's normal. Almost a body defense to help you get past the hurt. He says that I never let go of the past and therefore parts of the reason the marriage is failing.

He does take full responsibility for the ONS. And says he should have told me he felt he wasn't a priority anymore. That he should have communicated this again and again.

I told him what he should have said to me is "this is what I need from you, more attention, more affection etc and I have asked before so since I'm not getting it, and I no longer feel needed I am leaving". I would have had so much more respect for him instead of cheating on me for a 5th time. Truth is no attention is ever enough. Eventually I just throw your hands up and say F&@k it I can't live up to those expectations.

I was thinking I would be bitter and ugly but I refuse to let love breed bitterness and hate. (Although at times it is hard to remember that)

I really wish he didn't cheat this time. I know he didn't mean to do it again, but he did and I'm left with the pieces. It wasn't his ego, it was an alter personality. Some how or another he gathered up the confidence to meet someone alone over the computer and have sex and then meet them again a week later for more.

I will tell you that I know it was not physical attraction that caused this- because the OP was not attractive at all. OP asked me "why would he cheat with me when he has you".

OP was very sorry and said they truly had no idea. I just thanked them for being completely honest (told me no condoms were used). I did say to OP "please respect yourself enough to have the person wear a condom, no one is worth dying for".

I don't even know what im typing. Sometimes I just type to get it out, sometimes it makes it more clear that this is actually happening, and sometimes I'm just hoping that someone reads this and can relate or that I'm really not as alone as I feel.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 10:17 PM, October 30th (Wednesday)

Limbo is a really hard place.

Nothing happens, when you''re in limbo. Everything moves in a circular pattern. If only I...If only he...When I remember this...I''m afraid of that...If only I...

Circles. No ending. No beginning. Just a limbo of pain, un-ending pain. While life goes on, you get older, nothing changes, just circles in circles, circling again.

You need to break that circling break out of limbo. Yes, it''s going to hurt. A lot. But guess what? What you''re doing right now hurts too. A lot. And keeps on hurting and WILL keep on hurting until you say stop.

It''s as if your leg was so badly injured that you needed to amputate it. But, being afraid, you only cut a bit off. And since you didn''t get the infection, it spread, so you had to cut a bit more off. And a bit more. Dying inches at a time. Cutting more and more, deeper and deeper.

And if only you had taken your courage in hand, made the hard decision, and cut once, you would have already been healed, healthy, and walking around on that prosthetic limb. Maybe not as good as the original one, but functional, healthy, and able to explore life again.

Be brave, brother. This is your life. You don''t get a do-over. This is it. If you cannot or will not find happiness in the short amount of time that you are graced to live, then you will never find it at all. And living a life, the only one that you are granted, in a circular-hell limbo is so horrifying as to not be contemplated. Choose life! (((hugs)))


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4926 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
mesoSTUPID
Member
Member # 35679
Default  Posted: 2:51 AM, October 31st (Thursday)

Alex.- I am so sorry. I too am a BS by a husband of 23 years. I have been with him since I was 13.

I was so cocky about my relationship I would've bet life and limb that my H would never cheat on me and yet here I am.

I know exactly how you feel about your identity. Everything I am is tied in to his man I have been with for almost 30 years. We have a business that would suffer a great deal if we were to separate and that's the financial. Emotionally our daughters and family would be devastated with a separation.

I am 20 months out from discovery. I have pondered and analyzed if I should stay in this marriage or not and at the end of the day it comes down to how much I love him. I love him so much that I cannot walk away from this relationship.

Part of what saves him is that up to today we've had more good years than bad years. Right now these last 2 years have SUCKED BIG DONKEY D!CKS but I can't deny there's been some fantastic years in our history and for that reason I stay because everyday he tries and usually succeeds at showing me in some way how much he loves me.

I can tell you from the bottom of my heart that these affairs have nothing to do with you. This is all him and his lack of self esteem and self respect. He needs counseling to figure out why he's repeatedly cheated on you.

If you do want to work things out, I recommend you post in the RECONCILIATION section. The advise there is more geared toward saving your marriage.

BIG HUG!


ME (BS): 41 and so stupid!
Him (WH): 43. He's my dragon slayer but my heart wasn't supposed to be slayed!

Posts: 195 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Miami
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, October 31st (Thursday)

I am so grateful for all the posts. They really help. I have been so emotional and chaotic with the things I write, I'm surprised anyone can understand what I'm saying at all.

Today we spoke and he is willing to let go because he knows it will never be what it was. He was very emotional and apologetic. He said he started back with his counselor today and he is ready to take ownership of what he has done.

He said he knows this is his fault and not mine. He recognizes that there was trouble in the relationship and that he should have communicated that to me. He wants nothing more but to try AGAIN.

I just really don't know. I think that since it's happened so many times, how many other times were there that I didn't know. I guess that's something I'll never know (but I know in my gut there were others)

Is there life with him after this many times of infidelity ? Is that fair to me? Do I even want to try? Do I dare go down this dead end road again? Do I really want to wonder what sites he is meeting people in now or am I suppose to become this super spouse that bakes cookies and cuddles up?

I have read many people say that if u do try again that you should have them call on their way home, they should let u look thru their phone, computer, check up on them regularly and I think --FORGET THAT- seriously, I don't want to be a prison warden. I would like someone that I do not have to worry about them being so flighty and needy to need to creep behind my back and screw other people. That's not too much to ask for.

There was a time I thought that I had the best partner...protective, good looking, stable, determined, treated me great---and now I have no idea who this alter ego is that lives inside him. He only comes out a couple times a year but each time it kills me.

If he wanted an open relationship he should have told me. I found that site and I found the OP and I pretended I was interested in a hook up. I led them on and told them to meet me at a hotel. I pulled my car behind theirs so they couldn't back up/ I hoped in their car and I questioned them.... I grilled them. At first swore didn't know him when I showed the pic... I assured that I wasn't there for trouble. I just needed to hear the truth- the entire truth. They felt very bad for me and had no idea the my WS was in a relationship. I assured that my commitment wasn't with them and that I appreciated their honesty. That's when I also found out no condoms were used both times they met (one time was on my bday, we went to dinner very early bd he had to go to the store...) FINALLY I had the proof I needed to move on without any doubt.

And here I freaking sit debating to call him. I think I am as f'ed up as he is. It should be cut and dry. It should be over. Why do all the other things that were good fill my head. Why can't I just not be so forgiving. Why do I always look at both sides to the story. It has been 5 times. He won't change.

I told him I was not willing to go any more. I was not willing to change. I would not have sex with him ever again, and I will not trust him ever again-so why does he even want to try to save it. Why do I even entertain the idea.

I'm not ugly, I don't have low self-esteem. I don't really feel like I need anyone in my life. I don't need sex. I don't feel like a partner completes me-- why can I just not walk away. Is it love, is it control, is it fear-- I am going to a counselor next week--

If you all don't hear from me - it means she put me in the insane asylum.

Please post. I really cherish the messages. This is the only place I have vented. I've tried to keep this on the down low because I don't want all the drama.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
BAB61
Member
Member # 41181
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, October 31st (Thursday)

I have read this whole thread, and what I'm hearing is that you are totally conflicted about what you should do. Firstly don't keep let the blame be placed anywhere near you! It was his decision, ALL his. If he wants to R, by all means do so if you want to also. He needs to do the work. Counseling will help both of you. Individual counseling and couples counseling. My WH told me it was partly my fault for the A. I told him that no, it was all his. If he was unhappy in our relationship he should have addressed those issues and he CHOSE not to. All on him. I have demanded NC with the OW, and so far (only 1 week) that has happened. I expect her to contact him at some point. She will have to work for it since I have her blocked from his phone and he's blocked her from e-mail, fb and Skype. Which I check regularly. Like everyday. Total transparency is the only way for me now. I will pray for you (regardless of your religious affiliation or lack thereof) .... Love yourself - you have value.


Boss A** B*tch
BS/52 Me, STBXpos/56, dd's 16&14
1st D-day 10/19/2013 EA/PA
2nd D-day 12/7/2013 LTA/Rendezvous
S 12/7/2013 No-fault state, 6 mo S, counting down the days.

Posts: 1271 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: DE
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, October 31st (Thursday)

I do have value... I do deserve someone to be faithful. I know affairs are from loneliness, fear or anger (or all 3)
I really wish he would have discussed it with me prior. We could have talked thru it.
Now it just hurts to think about it.
Thank you for the prayers. I am realizing that I have codependency issues, that I plan on working on. I also realize that is I choose R I will fill like an idiot for some time but on the flip side I'd feel if I D that I'm throwing In the towel. (I base this confusion on the good 20 years and not the last 4 years) ultimately it's getting to be decision time. He is beginning to let go (kinda) and I'm beginning to detach (kinda).
I really don't know, my thoughts change from one minute to the next. I appreciate the post on "limbo". I am in a very confused state. I am trying to follow what I've been reading, I've asked the higher power for help because this is too big for me to feel this alone. I know the right answer will come but I still feel very "removed" mentally. Maybe I'm still in denial. Yea I'm pretty sure I'm in denial/anger stage. I don't know what the bargaining stage is- but maybe I'll are it there to see.

Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, November 1st (Friday)

I know affairs are from loneliness, fear or anger (or all 3)

Um, what?

Affairs are from low self esteem and entitlement, poor coping skills and pure selfishness, not loneliness, fear or anger. Well, I guess you may find some revenge affairs stemming from anger.

Your H wasn't lonely or afraid. He was selfish and has a low self esteem. He found someone to boost that esteem by accepting him and wanting him, and he went for it to get a 'fix'. Don't think for a second this was some kind of cry for help. It was an act of pure selfishness, nothing more.

Alex, I realize you had 20 years that were 'good', but your H is now a serial cheater. He won't stop. He's done this more than a handful of times, and honestly I'd be looking really closely at the first 20 years of your relationship. It wouldn't surprise me at all to find more cheating back then, and that you only started finding it after you started looking, once he was caught 4 years ago.

Your H does this every time. He cries "oh, you deserve better. I won't stand in your way. You should be happy, I'm so sorry but I understand, blah blah blah." This is what he did last time, no? He's now trying for your sympathy, but I've yet to see any real change from him, and neither have you which is really what's important here.

He's suddenly willing to let you go. Perhaps this last one was an exit affair, where the WS cheats hoping that the BS finds out and ends the relationship. That way, the WS doesn't have to sit down and explain that he/she just wants out.

Alex, you aren't 'throwing in the towel'. You are standing up for yourself. You've been through so much in just the last few years. You really don't need any more grief, and if this was an exit affair, that's what you'll end up with - because he'll do it again.

Aside from the affair, what does he say he wants? Or is he only saying he 'understands' why you want to leave? I'd be very curious where his head is relating to that question - does he want to R, or is he also 'done'

Your posts are so filled with pain Alex. I feel like your WH is manipulating you, saying he understands why you want to end things, leaving you to either not end things and hope it doesn't happen again, or end them wondering, since he's being so nice and understanding, if you made a mistake because THIS time may be the last time. He's putting it all on you, when it should be all on him.

Alex, do you really want him, after all he's done, or is this such a big change that fear of the unknown is really holding you back. That fear is very normal, and many people do stay because of it. A major change after nearly a quarter of a century is really a big step.

I think you really need to see where his head is, and what he is willing to do to if you stay together. Is he willing to do the real work this time, or is he being sad and 'letting go' because that's what he really wants but doesn't have the strength to say that?


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Girlygirly2006
New Member
Member # 41183
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, November 1st (Friday)

Omg Alex reading your posts is like everything I feel too.. About mine so called partner.. He says loves me best thing since sliced bread etc I'm his world things were excellent as far as I was concerned marriage on cards etc etc and yet this is the 6 th time I'm having to listen to his I don't know whys!!! We are gojng through counicllling but I don't know whether it's gonna work , I like you don't seem to have the strength I need to finally say get lost though on one hand want to so badly.. I'm too sympathetic feeling sorry etc feel like a walking doormat!! I need to work things out and I hole you do to these posts really help :)

Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: England
NeverAgain2013
Member
Member # 38121
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, November 1st (Friday)

I know I'm a good person but I feel so guilt ridden to end this and see how bad he is hurting and at the same time...

Just one simple question.

When does it STOP being all about him?


Be careful - that 'knight in shining armor' may very well be nothing more than an assclown wrapped in tin foil.
ME: 50+ years old and cute as a button :-)
Ex-WBF: Just a lying, cheating, gravy-sucking pig - and I left him in 2012.

Posts: 1807 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: USA
LMomof2
Member
Member # 41064
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, November 1st (Friday)

Hello AlexFL. I am where you are. I am so conflicted and confused. You have commented on my posts before and I so appreciated your concern. I thought I was on the road to recovery. I had kicked him out and filed for divorce immediately. He contacted me daily begging for forgiveness, telling me that he will do anything to be the husband that I want..Blah blah blah. You see, he owns a company and travels extensively - for business but many trips are for pleasure, like the one where the ONS happened. After close to 2 weeks of my having no contact with him, I sent him a long email of questions that I wanted answers to. (I posted them on my page on this site) He skirts around the answers. 2 weeks after being kicked out, I come home from work and his car is in the driveway. False promises are given to me about how he is going to change. Within less than 2 days back at the house, By the way, I never told him he was back in my life, he is telling me that HE has suffered enough and we need to move on to heal our relationship. He does not want to talk about IT anymore, and that the past can't be changed and basically his message is..forget about it and move on. I then ask him how he is going to be the husband that I want. He tells me that he is who he is and he likes to be around people all the time . If I want to come with him. I can come with him. Really, that's it?? My husband is a manipulator, too. You and I have to be strong. WE DON'T DESERVE this kind of treatment from the men who are supposed to love us. Lies, Cheating WE SHOULD NOT STAND FOR THIS. I see so much of my situation in your story its astounding. Today I am so angry I can't think straight. I just want to end everything. I don't know if I even want to live anymore (although I wouldn't do anything drastic). I was the perfect wife and mother, We have terrific girls, I kept a nice house all while working full time as a teacher. But I guess just not exciting enough for my H. He is a selfish manipulator and now all of a sudden, he is making time for our almost adult and adult daughters, trying to win them over to his camp. I hope they see through his facade. I won't lower myself to badmouth him to my girls. They know what happened and what he did. AlexFL - stay strong. Respect yourself. That is what I am trying to say to myself as well.


LMomof2
Me - BW - 59
Him - WH - 59
35 yrs - 2 daughters 17, 21
DDay - 10-15-13
ONS - 9-20-13 and probably YEARS of gaslighting - signs were there.

Posts: 81 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Pennsylvania
Quakingaspen
Member
Member # 41153
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, November 1st (Friday)

I just read this whole thread, and feel your uncertainty about what to do. It is so hard, but I think you're getting there with what you need to do.
My WH and I have also been together for a long time since we were young, and many people have commented that they wished their marriage could be like ours. When things were good, they were really good. Or were they?
I also hesitated to tell people about what was going on in order to protect him, but I found that doing that only isolated me from people who could support me. I'm not telling everyone, but a few people who I can trust are really helping me a lot.
I sympathize with your not wanting to be a police officer either. I am done with that myself.
I think you're doing a good job of figuring out what you need. Let him figure his own business out. Stick with it!


I've seen enough.

WS-SA/NPD
D-Day: Too many in 17 years of marriage. LAST time 10/17/2013.


Posts: 122 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: A little bit closer to Reality
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, November 1st (Friday)

These posts see what keep me sane (or just not as crazy). We tried to talk today. He said if this is over he is ready to walk away from the business and let it all go away. He said in trying to take away everything he has worked for all his life. He said I am his purpose of working long hours to provide a nice lifestyle for me and the kids and without that motivation he doesn't need to be there anymore. Easier said then done. It would be sad for me to see everything WE worked for go away. It's too hard to explain but the business is tied to other investments and he is right, if he walks they all go away but he could still make $$ for himself.

All I understand from this conversation is basically - the punishment doesn't fit the crime....he didn't say that. And he has expressed complete sorrow but it makes me question if I'm being ridiculous.

We have great kids, good business, good investments, a nice home.... Do I want to totally disrupt everything and everyone cause he had another ONS. Do I believe him when he says he is really going to work on it. He is do mad/hurt at me because when I caught him every rotten thing he has ever done spewed from the inner depths of the darkest place inside me and I just kept telling him what a horrible person he was for days, weeks now.

He said that must be how I really feel. And I told him of course I'm going to immediately think of all the bad-- it's a defense to convince myself he's such an ass rather than call to pieces. He doesn't get it.

I don't even know how many days it's been since I confronted him.... I don't even know what I'm doing. I understand why people remain single. Why would any one opt into this nightmare -- why would I not run as far as I can... How do u measure the good vs bad. How can I know that he always thought the world of me and made me feel so special and also know that he's a liar and a cheater.

He said today, "some of the things you've said about me are horrible and they aren't about the acts I've committed but about my character. I can't change my character so I know I must let this end so you can find happiness" Is it reverse psychology? Is it manipulation or is this his quiet way of saying I've been cheating on u more times then u know and I don't want to cause you anymore pain?

It's hard to talk to him right now cause he is terribly sensitive. His eyes are filled with tears 24 hours a day.

I sometimes just want to freeze the world so I can breathe and remain still for a minute, so I can digest what's happened without any other influences. Thank you for reading my rambling posts. I sound terribly dramatic and I apologize if there are typos I do not reread or of never hit send.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
Girlygirly2006
New Member
Member # 41183
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, November 2nd (Saturday)

Hi Alex sounds terrible what you h is doing to you ,, sounds like he's very manipulative and is trying to make you feel guilty using the business failure on you and basically saying if you leave him the business will fail that's terrible that's really annoyed me ! .. Damn these men ... I know you love him you had your good times as I have mine a I'm going through same as you though no financial ties.. He cannot lay this shit at your door!! If he gives up the business and doesn't carry it on for the families sake he's not prepared to support you it should come from him not laid at you.. , even if you decided not to take him back he should still provide for you and your family!!
He's trying every trick in the book by the sounds of it Hun ... I'm struggling with mine too so I know it's hard mine was my world he said I was his .. 6 times I've found him sneaking about .. I'm still in limbo chin up wee here to support you .. Sending love and strength to you x

Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: England
heforgotme
Member
Member # 38391
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, November 2nd (Saturday)

How do u forgive and try again when you did forgive before and before and before.

Honest and truly I don't think I could. Once was enough for me. Then again I didn't think I'd be doing this either, so never say never.

If he won't stop doing this you have 2 choices. You can either decide to live with it or decide to split up.

Bc unfortunately his actions suggest that he is not going to stop.

I will cross my fingers that he sees the light.

xo


D-Day 11/15/12
5 month PA
Married 20 years, 3 kids
All good is hard. All evil is easy. Dying, losing, cheating, and mediocrity is easy. Stay away from easy.
- Scott Alexander
It was the day I thought I'd never get through - Daughtry

Posts: 1083 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: FL
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, November 2nd (Saturday)

And he has expressed complete sorrow but it makes me question if I'm being ridiculous.

Ridiculous? You aren't disrupting anything. He did. He's cheated again and again and again. You deserve better. His crocodile tears are nothing but manipulation. He's been saying for a week how 'he needs to just let you go if that's what you want'. Boo fucking whoo. He's manipulating you, and now he's doing it financially by saying that 'without you I have nothing to work for.' Yeah, but you couldn't keep it in your pants for me even though you know how it just crushes me. Screw him.

You tell him that he does have something to work for - it's called child support. Besides, if you worked there too, you can just take it over, and you make the money. You do NOT need him, for anything.

He's manipulating you. If he really means he needs to 'let you go'. then he should leave, and NOW. He doesn't mean it. He's trying to make you believe he's just so sad and hurt. HE'S HURT? So, he keeps screwing other women. Does that mean he doesn't love you? Of course you said horrible things to him. You've been hurt repeatedly.

I don't know your H, but I hate him. I hate that he's manipulating you, and trying to make you the bad guy. I hate that he has you wondering if you shouldn't be upset. I hate that he's making this about how you feel about him, and not about him being a serial cheater. He's scum, plain and simple, and he knows how to get to you.

If you're going to let him stay, then make him sign a post nup. Make him turn the business over to you 100% if he is unfaithful from the date of him signing the agreement forward. Then you'll see how serious he is about his sorrow and not wanting the business if he doesn't have you.

Your husband is a pile of shit and he's playing with your mind. He has you questioning your own value, and he's blaming you.

I'm sorry - but that's what's happening.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 4:13 PM, November 2nd (Saturday)

I think you hit the nail on the head. He does love me and he is sorry but this has fine to manipulation. You're right if he has nothing to work for then he should just sign everything over to me. I'm going to keep that in my back pocket and use it during one of his next sessions where he tells me "he feels like he doesn't belong here, and I don't care for him, and he has nothing without me". He was just here a minute ago and left cause it felt too hard to be here and then came back and sat on the couch. He was upset cause I was on computer when he came in and didn't rush out to say hello (it was probably a full minute he waited). Kids were busy on their electronics do I understand he feels like he is forgotten but when I suggested he take them somewhere or even one of them somewhere he said he can't "keep if together" long enough to do that. I said "well I've had my moments and didn't have the privilege of running off in my self pity".

He said I just don't show that I care at all. I said a person doesn't have to be crying on the closet floor (like I did many times) and screaming, and self loathing to show they care. I said I feel bad he is hurting but nothing has changed. No effort has been made to try and figure out why this keeps happening. It's not my fault. I get hit on all the time (well not all the time) but it doesn't make me arrange secret ONS times for my who to be boosted. A nice compliment makes me feel good.
he was questioning my FB and friends on Facebook. I just said if someone friend requests me I accept. I have never been inappropriate on FB and I am confident in that. I'm sure he'd want me to get rid of it if we R.

It's not that I don't care. I just feel like enough is enough. I'm really trying to be strong and just not give into his trigger arguments. I'm trying. I still do miss him bc we were together 24 years and we early were apart. It's still like I am missing something everyday. I d k I'm just not ready to make any decisions completely. I don't feel like I should have to.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, November 2nd (Saturday)

AlexFL, I just read a different post of yours. Your H tried to go screw someone else on your birthday. YOUR BIRTHDAY. This guy is a piece of work. He took you out early so he could leave you and go have sex. PILE OF SHIT.

He isn't going to let any business go. He's saying that to make you feel how 'sorry he is'. Bullshit.

Set up visitation with the kids, tell him when to come get them, and start behaving like he's gone, and R is off the table. Right now he knows he's still in your head. See how he behaves when he knows you're moving on and making plans for this sham of a marriage he's in to be done. He'll change. He'll either get some real help instead of playing his manipulation games, or his true colors will show and you'll have all the answers you need.

He is just despicable. He really is something else.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, November 2nd (Saturday)

Painfulpast - I love your posts. I need to hear it !!!

Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, November 3rd (Sunday)

I've not been texting. Only answering him if he asks a question.

Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
Girlygirly2006
New Member
Member # 41183
Default  Posted: 6:07 AM, November 4th (Monday)

Good for you.. Mines the same expecting me to jump when he walks through door sod that!! He gotta do some serious work to win me back and yours needs to do the same if you decide that's what you want! mine was texting some girl a day after my birthday to say how sexy she looked bloody joker!! Each time I'm getting stronger and he knows it ok gonna take me some time to finally know what I want but at this moment I feel more in control and feels good.. He needs to show you he aces for you not the other way round he needs councilling if he's not willing id say no future you can not live like this .. He's done it too many times as has mine.. We are in councilling .. He tried this I can't live without you crap .. I just say well your the idiot that threw it away your loss .. I tell him don't think I can't do the things he's been doing only better .. Shuts him up!! Though I wouldn't as loved the bones off him.. Hence I say loved ,.. Gonna take a long time to get that back if ever!! Yeh I love him but not half as much as I did.. I know exactly how you feel I'm going through same shit .. Bet with everyone's help I'm sure we can get through this .. Sending hugs and best wishes for the future .. X

Posts: 23 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: England
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, November 4th (Monday)

It's amazing to hear that other people are going through the exact same thing ---even the same conversations, same excuses etc.

I would like to say to him - "how about we get back together and we agree that I can lie to him and go screw random people whenever I'm feeling bad about myself"(I wouldn't)--- of course he would say "he doesn't want to live like that" -- and then I would say "well that's what your asking me to do for you, live with knowing that nothing has changed and these behaviors will continue"

I am a forgiver. Not really a grudge holder however if I've forgiven you before for the sand thing and you repeatedly do the same thing to me-- a wall goes up, all those old hurts come to the forefront and I remember every shitty thing you've ever done.

He says he can't deal with me attacking his character everytime we talk-- so fix your F'ed up character. I'm not doing it for you.

I need to take a minute to breathe. I don't want to start the day with this hostility.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 9:12 PM, November 9th (Saturday)

My mood has been pretty level but it worries me a little. I still feel like I'm not really allowing myself to feel anything. Sure I get sad, angry etc but I've managed to push it down. I feel very numb. He has been very sensitive when I speak to him. He takes ownership if his bad choices but I don't feel like anything has been really done to change his behavior in the future.

He says he truly realizes what he has done. He seems very frustrated because I haven't been begging him to come back home. Part of me doesn't even feel like this is me it my life. Like I'm an observer.

I'm so tired. I have been keeping up appearances and going to the gym but this has made me feel like nothing is worth it. I am so disappointed in the entire human race at this point all I can do is smile cause if not I'd cry.

I feel like my emotions have flat lined


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:58 PM, November 9th (Saturday)

He seems very frustrated because I haven't been begging him to come back home.

He expected you to, which is why he was fine cheating again. Do NOT back down Alex. You can do this. You've been doing great so far. Who cares if he's frustrated. It's a lot better than the way he's left you, right? He caused this, not you. If you had done as expected and just accepted his apology, he'd be doing it again already!!

It was your birthday Alex!!! This pig was taking you out early so he could get to his date!! Do NOT forget that!!

You will feel better in time. You will, but it will take time to heal. You are probably better doing NC as best you can with him. He wants to be in your head, and you need him out. If it isn't about the kids, it isn't important.

Stay strong. You don't need a cheater in your life, making you feel like this. You just don't.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
AlexFL
Member
Member # 40966
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, November 10th (Sunday)

Tonight was very difficult. He showed up at an outting unannounced. Thought it would be a good place to try and start putting things behind us-- except he was mad that I was 30 minutes late meeting him (although I didn't know he was even coming so how can I be late) and then he also accused me of checking out someone else.

I am in a bad place. There's nothing that looks like the right option. R looks too hard and no guarantee it will work and D seems too crazy and possibly explosive. I have no idea what I'm doing. I feel like a complete loser, scared of my own shadow.


Posts: 146 | Registered: Oct 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:14 PM, November 10th (Sunday)

This guy is pulling your strings like a master puppeteer. And you are letting him.

He is a mega-manipulator and he needs to grow the fuck up.

He takes ownership if his bad choices

Saying that he's sorry and walking around like a sap and being *too sad* to hang out with his kids....is NOT taking ownership. The guy is playing Eeyore. "Oh, poor me. Alex keeps beating me up about what a bad guy I am and it's hurting my feelings. I mean I said I was sorry." That ain't ownership.


He showed up at an outting unannounced. Thought it would be a good place to try and start putting things behind us

Unilateral thinking. He's going to *fix* it - and when you don't react in the way that the scenario played out in his head as he was hatching his grand plan.....there's going to be hell to pay -- as you found out. This dumbass has been watching too many movies. He expected you to *swoon* in his presence -- when the reality of the situation is that he *crashed* your f'n party, without notice, demanded attention, and threw tantrums when he didn't get it.

So Painfulpast brought up (twice) the issue of what happened on your birthday......and you haven't acknowledged it. And I'm not saying that you HAVE to....what I'm saying is that is seems that you are trying to *push down* your own feelings about all of this shit that he has pulled and is pulling because you are *trying* to make-this-work. I am going to tell you to Stop.It! STOP being so f'n nice because it's not going to accomplish what you are hoping to accomplish.

Stop worrying about this *forgiveness* stuff right now. Seriously. You can forgive him for whatever you want to, but you give that forgiveness as a way of setting that load down and putting it in your rear-view mirror so that you can move forward. You can forgive people that have hurt you but that doesn't mean that if they are toxic, fucked-up people that they have to remain a part of your life. It means that you have recognized that person to be an albatross around your neck who is no longer a *positive* in your life and you need to cast the albatross off to move forward in a healthy way. "*You* go do your toxic thing. I'll do my healthy thing. No harm, no foul. Grace, grace. No hard feelings."

Just in case you're wondering -- I dealt with a guy like your WH. For way too long. I wasted about 3 years of my life 'waiting' for him to *get it*. He never did and he never will. If anything, my *forgiving* nature just made it 1000X worse.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8075 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Topic Posts: 39