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Divorce/Separation
User Topic: seeking input from D'ed BS w/kids
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)

I know all of us are from all over the country so I'm not looking for specifics, just general consensus.

Quick back story. DD is going through divorce and is trying for custody of the kids. She lives in Wisconsin and stbxSIL lives here in Ohio but jurisdiction has been granted to Ohio.

(BTW this sitch has roots in infidelity so I'm posting here. If not appropriate, mods please move)

Anyway, stbxSIL is of course fighting her on it. He's accused her of abusing GS because he had a bruise on his shoulder (caused by bee stings) and has accused her of restricting him solely to his room for an entire day (my guess is he's going for mental/emotional abuse with this)

As for pros and cons, DD is in a stable relationship.
Her SO is more than capable of providing for them so she can be there for the kids (be a SAHM if she wants.)
She and SO can provide a stable environment for the kids.
Only con I can think of is stbxSIL and DD live in different states.

As for stbxSIL, his work history is less than stirling. He'll get a job, keep it for a few months then either quit or get fired. He and OW are currently living with his aunt so no guarantee that kids will have their own beds much less their own rooms and no way of telling when they'll have to move (stbxSIL's mouth tends to cause friction with his "hosts"). His relationship with OW is far from stable. It's on again/off again. They're both cheaters so what else is to be expected right?
Of course, this sitch is stressing my DD to no end plus there's the chance that stbxSIL will vanish with the kids should the ruling go against him (they'll be notified by mail via their lawyers).

So, input on those two questions: what do you think of her chances of getting primary custody and what precautions should she take to ensure she gets the kids if she's awarded custody?


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)

Who moved away and why?

How long have they been separated and what have been the visitation/custody arrangements to date?

Cat


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 7:04 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)

Cat took the questions right out of my mouth.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9824 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)

DD moved to be with her SO and stbxSIL had custody by default since before she moved she was staying with us and we just didn't have the room. They've been separated for going on two years now, I believe.
I was thinking DD has more than the 50-50 chance her L told her because her situation is MUCH more stable than her stbx's and almost overwhelmingly, family court tends to favor the mother. When H and I talked about it, it seemed to us that stbxSIL would essentially have to prove his situation is better/more stable than DD's and from what we know of him and his history, that will be very difficult if not impossible.
So, in regards to him possibly vaporing with the kids should he lose, what are your suggestions on how she can prevent that?


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
million pieces
Member
Member # 27539
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)

I know it varies state by state, but here in MD 50/50 is pretty much the norm if both parents want custody. And I was told by my lawyer that I shouldn't expect to keep much custody if I moved over 45 mins away from my kids' father.


Me - 42
2 kids, 9 and 12
D-Day 2/5/10, separated 3 wks later
Divorced 11/15/11!!!!

Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: MD
courageous
Member
Member # 34477
Default  Posted: 10:33 PM, November 6th (Wednesday)

I moved over 40 less than 100 miles from exwh when I filed for D. Sorry to be vague but I can't give out too many details in a public forum. If you need more info or have questions, you can PM me. I left our martial home and moved in with my parents because I was a SAHM and hadn't worked for 6 years so it took me a long time to find a job... And even now I'm making more than half LESS than I had before kids.

Anyways.... I have primary custody and he has the state minimum. We made an agreement that he gets additional days in the summer as if he lived over 100 miles away in exchange for not coming on Thursday nights. So he has them 1, 3, and 5 weekends of each month alternating spring breaks, and 45 days in the summer.

I did not get in trouble for moving because I had good and logical reasoning behind it. I live in a no fault state but the temp custody hearing judge was pissed at my exwh. She told him he needed to choice his girlfriend or his kids. His behavior doing the marriage will play an important part.


Me: BW (35)
Him: ExWH (31) EA/PA with MOW coworker
Married 9 years, 2 small kids
dday 3/12/2011 divorced fall 2012

My ipad does a lot of crazy typos.


Posts: 651 | Registered: Jan 2012
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 6:21 AM, November 7th (Thursday)

My thoughts? She moved AWAY from her child to be with her boyfriend. That is a big strike against her.

Second strike against her is that she has willingly allowed her STBX custody (and I assume it is nearly 100% given the distances involved). The court is likely to look at it his way: if he is so awful, why was she willing to leave her child with him.

Bottom line, with jurisdiction where he lives and her up and moving not a small distance away, I doubt she is going to get custody.

Cat


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, November 7th (Thursday)

Dupe post--sorry. Darn iPad and train wifi.

Cat

[This message edited by Catwoman at 6:25 AM, November 7th (Thursday)]


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, November 7th (Thursday)

Sorry, but I agree with Catwoman.


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6527 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
sparkysable
Member
Member # 3703
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

stbxSIL had custody by default
says who?


D-day OW#1 2/2004; R for 6 years; D-day OW#2 5/2010

Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last.


Posts: 3410 | Registered: Mar 2004 | From: NY
sparkysable
Member
Member # 3703
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

Am I reading this right? She moved away from her kids, and left them with her STBXH?


D-day OW#1 2/2004; R for 6 years; D-day OW#2 5/2010

Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last.


Posts: 3410 | Registered: Mar 2004 | From: NY
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

What I meant by he had custody by default is DD was staying with us after they separated and we didn't have room for her and three kids. That was the *only* reason the kids lived with him and not with her/us. However, visitation was fairly generous. There were plenty of times they'd spend a week or two with us. Yes, it was a bit cramped but we weren't exactly in each other's back pockets, if you know what I mean.
As for her moving to be with her SO I agree it may not have been the smartest move under the circumstances but if I'd remembered the fact that stbxSIL is an unremorseful wayward (and paid more attention to what other BS went through in this sitch) I'd have advised her to wait until custody had been settled.
As I see it, stbx isn't *just* after custody. I think he *does* want the kids but I think he's also doing this (in part) because he's pissed that DD has moved on and is using this to get back at her. You know, the old unremorseful wayward thinking that "*I* can move on but *you* had better wait to see if I change my mind". She didn't and now he's using the custody fight to "get even".
I'm hoping (perhaps against hope) that the fact that she can provide a much more stable environment than her stbx can will at least partially negate the points you brought up. I *do* know that if stbxSIL gets custody, we'll see them even less than if DD gets custody because he tends to hold a grudge. The fact that we're her parents will be enough for him to keep them from us and Ohio doesn't recognize grandparents' rights. So yeah, I'd like DD to get primary custody for our benefit too. I won't lie about that but I also believe quite sincerely that the kids would be better off with her. I know how stbxSIL is. He can't keep a job, is constantly moving due to friction with *someone* and unless he's done a major turnaround, he doesn't really interact with the kids that much. It was like he overlooked them unless they were bothering him somehow. He was especially hard on GS.
Anyway we'll hear the news, good or bad. within the next week. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 6:10 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

Personally, I don't think environment is going to play as much of a role as who is taking care of the kids day to day. As nice a fellow as her SO may be, he is not the child's parent. It is going to come down to who willingly moved away and left the kids and who is doing the majority of the day to day.

As a parent, I cannot fathom this. I would have lived in a studio apartment with cots for beds and sleeping bags for bedding before moving hundreds of miles away and leaving my children with my not-yet-ex. What was she thinking?

How often does she see the children?

Cat


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 7:02 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

Cat, because of distance she's unable to see them as much as she wants though I'm sure she saw them while she was here for court.

My main worry is if stbxSIL gets custody, he'll find "reasons" to default on the visitation agreement. Like I said, he's the type to hold a grudge and I *do* think he's using this sitch to get even with her. I also think he'll use the kids to force her into concessions. Basically "I'll let you see the kids *if* you do..." whatever. Because he's the type to do sh*t like that. He's also someone wants someone to take care if him, even *expects* to be taken care of.

I know he's had the day to day care of them for the majority of the last two years but wouldn't the court take his history of constant changes of jobs and lack of a really permanent address into account? Or will they just tell her "You moved and left the kids with him so he gets primary custody."?

I know I'm probably grasping at straws here and admittedly I'm putting a lot of that hope in the fact that the family court system tends to find in favor of the mother, especially if young children are involved, as it is in this case. I'm also hoping they'll look at her documentation of the times he refused to let her see/talk to them when she was still here, things he should have done for them but didn't, etc., etc. I gave her the advice to document after seeing it given to so many BS going through this with their WS. I don't know how much (if any) good that will do if they'll just look at who has the day to day care and who moved.

Anyway, if you can spare any mojo for her, I'd be so greatful.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

The court is going to consider the day-to-day care and the parenting actions of each parent. As long as he has been able to provide for them adequately, I am not sure his employment history is going to play as large a role as your daughter moving hundreds of miles away and leaving the children in his care. This could be considered abandonment.

Yes many courts do favor the mother, but that is mainly in situations where the mother is present. She hasn't been present. She willingly moved far away. You cannot expect a judge to believe that her doing so was in the best interest of the children AND that she is the superior parent due to her sex.

I am sorry if I appear harsh, but her actions are troubling and puzzling. She left her kids. She could have stayed,, put the boyfriend on the back burner and dedicated herself to being present in their lives. But she didn't.

I hope to God I am wrong, but I feel the cards are very much stacked against her. The court is especially going to look at her giving him custody while she went off with her SO. It might be different if it were a job or certainly a military deployment. But a boyfriend? Really? And it goes against her credibility for her to argue that he has issues because she willingly left the children in his care not to better herself or for a job but for a relationship. She cannot have it both ways, and the court will see that.

I am sorry this is not what you want to hear, but this is reality. She is likely to get very little traction with this. Frankly, she gave up her chances for custody when she chose a boyfriend over her kids.

This upsets me greatly, as you can probably tell. I could have moved 1000 miles way when we separated, but I felt strongly the children needed a relationship with their father, as much of a cad as he is. When I moved last summer, I chose a location tht would not be inconvenient for the kids, as they are the ones who need to travel back and forth (they are young adults now). Shoot, I don't let my SO stay over when my kids are home because they deserve a home that is THEIRS, not one where they might run into someone that they don't know well while making their morning coffee.

Parenting requires sacrifices at times. I am saddened for you that your daughter didn't see this when she made her decisions because it is likely to affect her and, unfortunately the children, for decades to come.

Cat

[This message edited by Catwoman at 7:54 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
courageous
Member
Member # 34477
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

Wait, she left her kids for two years!? Yeah that's abandonment. The fact that she made the choice of her boyfriend over her children and now she wants full custody.... Not going to happen. Judges do not like to take children from their stable and consistent home.

The stbxsil may lose jobs over and over but he has always provided for the kids. He is and has been their only constant. I understand hardships... I'm living with my parents because I can't afford my own place but to move far away just to be with a boyfriend shows that her priorities are very skewed.

I just went back and reread your first post... No where did you mention how she misses her kids. All you said was about the SO. the SO is not their parent and can't be considered as part of the equation.

You might want to prepare your DD for just getting minimal visitation. Her lawyer could just be telling her what she wants to hear. I don't want to sound like I'm being mean but your DD really needs to start thinking about the best interest of the kids and not for herself. If the situation was reversed, as it has been many times here on SI, and your DD had stayed and stbxsil left to have his new life/ relationship, hardly seeing the kids, and then 2 years later came back wanting to take the kids far away... Probably out of DD's life we would all be saying hell no!

Why can't she move back? This is sending a subtle message to the kids that they are not more important than SO. Are the kids in IC?


Me: BW (35)
Him: ExWH (31) EA/PA with MOW coworker
Married 9 years, 2 small kids
dday 3/12/2011 divorced fall 2012

My ipad does a lot of crazy typos.


Posts: 651 | Registered: Jan 2012
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

While she was staying with us, she was going to school. We were supporting her during this.

As far as abandonment, I may have given you the wrong impression. She didn't move *just* to be with her SO and while here she saw them when stbxSIL felt like bringing them. As for the relationship between SO and the kids I guess mutual adoration describes it pretty well. It's not like he's a stranger to them and they just spent the last six months with them in Wisconsin. As it stands now, the older two are *not* in school because of the lack of even temporary custody orders. stbxSIL can't enroll them without it. To be honest I can't say how well he's caring for them since I'm not there to see.

courageous, she *does* miss her kids. Every time stbxSIL came to get them it was obvious she didn't want them to go but was bowing to the circumstances. She isn't fighting for them to screw with her stbx but because she wants her kids and believes she (and her SO) can provide for them more consistantly.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
little turtle
Member
Member # 15584
Default  Posted: 10:01 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

She would have a much better chance if she had waited for this to be settled before she moved away.

You never said, what is the current visitation schedule like? The kids were in Wisconsin for 6 months?? They aren't in school? I'm confused.

If the kids have been primarily living with their dad for 2 years and doing well, I don't see why anyone would remove them from their home now. She should be hoping to get the 50/50 and not less.


Failure is success if we learn from it.

Posts: 4202 | Registered: Aug 2007 | From: michigan
courageous
Member
Member # 34477
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, November 7th (Thursday)

I'm a bit confused. Why did she not take the kids with her when she moved? Did stbxsil not allow the kids to go? The kids are not in school! does he get in trouble with the school system for the kids being out for so long? If he prohibited the kids to go that could be huge for her case.


Me: BW (35)
Him: ExWH (31) EA/PA with MOW coworker
Married 9 years, 2 small kids
dday 3/12/2011 divorced fall 2012

My ipad does a lot of crazy typos.


Posts: 651 | Registered: Jan 2012
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 4:01 AM, November 8th (Friday)

The kids spent the summer with them so school wasn't an issue. She had the younger ones for a while before that and got GS when the school year finished. Admittedly I'm a little fuzzy on how/when stbxSIL got them back but since he has them, he's unable to enroll GS because of the lack of even temp orders so even though school has been in here in Ohio for the last couple months GS has been unable to go. GD1 is eligible for preschool but evidently here in Ohio parents must pay for preschool. In Wisconsin, it's part of the regular school system.

I have to get ready for work now so I'll revisit this when I have more time. Thanks again for your input.

[This message edited by Clarrissa at 4:06 AM, November 8th (Friday)]


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 4:29 AM, November 8th (Friday)

She didn't move *just* to be with her SO

Why did she move, and why did she make the conscious choice to not take her children with her (of course, I personally would have an issue with that because I believe that unless a parent is a truely destructive person, they deserve the opportunity to be in their childrens' lives).

I have never heard of the lack of temporary custody orders being an issue in enrolling a child in school. Why is that the case?

Why can't she live near her STBX? Is there an opportunity for them to live near where he lives?

I'm sorry, but this is a real mess. I feel for those kids--no predictability, no schedule, not knowing what will happen in the future. Your daughter needs to get her act together and determine that parenting comes before romance.

Cat


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
million pieces
Member
Member # 27539
Default  Posted: 5:54 AM, November 8th (Friday)

It is hard to give more input, I'm not really sure about the timeline. But like Cat said, I've never heard of not being able to enroll kids into school without temp orders. I enrolled my dd into K when I was separated and it was never even asked. (preschool in MD isn't public other than some very limited areas). Where was the child going to school the previous year? I'd say she could use the fact that he doesn't have the kids in school as evidence for her, but if she hasn't lifted a finger to remedy the situation other than take his word that he tried I'd bet a judge would let her have it too. And seriously, what judge would deem her household as more stable based on a BF? They could break up and where would your DD be? Your DD needs a place of her own, a job of her own to show she is the more stable parent.


Me - 42
2 kids, 9 and 12
D-Day 2/5/10, separated 3 wks later
Divorced 11/15/11!!!!

Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: MD
sparkysable
Member
Member # 3703
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, November 8th (Friday)

Something smells really fishy about this whole situation.

I can not see ONE SCHOOL in the entire US denying enrollment because custody orders weren't in place. "Sorry, your enrollment request is denied due to lack of permanent custody orders". Seriously?

They are going to leave those kids right where they are.

And as far as them not being in school, I think kindergarten, though most states have kindergarten programs, it's not MANDATORY attendance until 1st grade.


D-day OW#1 2/2004; R for 6 years; D-day OW#2 5/2010

Marriages that start this way, stepping over the bodies of loved ones as the giddy couple walks down the aisle, are not likely to last.


Posts: 3410 | Registered: Mar 2004 | From: NY
HopeImOverIt
Member
Member # 34517
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, November 8th (Friday)

My school district requires multiple proofs of residency within the district in order to enroll. Maybe custody orders, or lack thereof, would impact that in some way? Like without custody orders you can't definitively state where the children live?

It's been quite a while since I registered my kids for public school and at the time I was married. But possibly the form asks if you are divorced/separated, and if so do you have custody orders establishing where the children legally reside?



Me: BW (50)
ExWH: (51)
2 teen-age boys
Divorced

Posts: 266 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: PA
Holly-Isis
Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, November 8th (Friday)

Honestly, it sounds like nobody is putting the kids first in this. I don't know if they're being used as pawns, but their stability and emotional needs sure seem like they're being ignored while the parents do what they want with little regard to how it's affecting the kids.

Someone in this needs to see past themselves in order to see what is actually best for the kids. Until that happens, the damage being caused will continue.


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

Posts: 11225 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Just a fool in limbo
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, November 8th (Friday)

I need to clarify a few points. Sorry if my posts have led to more confusion than necessary.

First as it stands now *neither* have legal custody, temp or otherwise. The current arrangement was due to circumstances, namely, OW was a "friend" of DD's and they were helping her out by letting her and her son stay with them. stbxSIL (I'll call him J just to make things easier) and OW started their EA/PA which understandably made the situation intolerable to DD. Yes she may have been too hasty in her decision to leave but it was her choice. She came to live with us and we just did not have the room for her *and* the kids. If we had, the situation would be very different.

Second, it's natural to assume that since J has the kids, he is their primary caregiver. That point can be debated. If he's following his usual pattern, that responsibility has been handed over to his aunt. He did this with us, with my sister and with his mother. His attitude seems to be "It's your house so my kids are *your* responsibility." When he tried it with us, H called him on it. Actually called both of them on it as DD was taking advantage of the situation as well. However, DD started stepping up to the plate. J on the other hand got pissed. Like how DARE my H expect him to take care of his own kids?

J is very good at blameshifting and playing the victim. Everyone who has taken them in has also asked (or told) them to leave mainly because of J's attitude. When my sister had had enough of it my DD apologized to her. My sister wouldn't have minded so much if J had just stepped up and been a parent instead of expecting my sister to do it. Same with us.

As for his employment history, I know of at least two jobs he could have kept but didn't. One was at a landscaping place and he "had" to quit. Why? Because in his mind, he wasn't getting the preferential treatment he felt he deserved. He was the new guy and it was a family-owned business. The second was where I work. He got fired for punching someone. Was it his fault? According to J, nope, it wasn't. The guy had made an insensitive, even mean comment about DD so J punched him. BUT, according to J, this guy got him fired.

When they've been asked to leave by whoever they've been staying with, his attitude is in no way at fault, by his logic. It's *their* fault because they have a problem with it and he shouldn't be expected to adjust it. Like I said, typical unremorseful wayward bullcrap. I see it clearly because I indulged in it myself once upon a time. No doubt he blames DD entirely for his EA/PA which BTW resulted in an OC.

As far as visitation, he decided when and how long DD could see them because he knew she didn't have access to reliable transportation. Yes, we have a vehicle but it's not exactly top-of-the-line, straight off the showroom floor. It's a 20 year old van with not so minor issues. H puts 140 miles/week on it just taking me to work (I ride the bus home) and there were serious concerns about it being able to make at least a 100 mile round trip on a regular basis. J knew this and took advantage of it. And after a while it became obvious (to me at least) that he wouldn't bring the kids unless he got something out of it. He usually asked (demanded?) gas money in return. No real problem. What's a tank of gas to being able to spend time with the grandkids? The main problem, again, was his attitude and the implication that he shouldn't even be asked to absorb some of the cost of transportation. By asking gas money, he put me and H on the spot. I doubt his bringing the kids was done out of the kindness of his heart or because he acknowledged that the kids would like to or need to see their mother.

HIOI, I do believe that's the problem with the school issue. They're separated but neither has court ordered custody. Neither is recognized (legally) as primary caregiver and the school evidently requires such documentation.

Holly, yes the kids are being used as pawns but not, I think, by DD. While I don't think J would mistreat them he *would* use them to get what he wants. He's used them before when trying to play the guilt card. I can definately see him using them to get back at DD. After all, he has an A, she moved on and he's pissed about that. We've both seen this scenario here on SI. WS chooses the AP but fully expects the BS to wait for them in case they change their minds. When the BS doesn't, they get vengeful and will use anything or anyone, including kids, to "get even". This is what I'm convinced J is doing at least in part.

On DD's part, she wants the kids because they're her kids, not because she wants to "win". She loves those kids. I know she stepped up to the plate when H called her on it. While she was here and had the kids *she* was the parent. She made sure they were fed, she was the one who bathed them, dressed them and put them to bed. Yes, I helped, usually right after bath time and the ocassional diaper change but most grandmothers will. If they did something they knew they shouldn't, she was the one who called them on it. And she made sure they knew that it was Papaw's and Mamaw's house so it was our rules. J's attitude was "Your house, not my problem."

Sorry this turned into a novel of sorts but I wanted to give a more complete picture and clarify a few points.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, November 9th (Saturday)

In the eyes of the court, none of what you have said matters. He can be a colossal jerk (and likely is) but she left without her children. In the court's opinion, since she left willingly (circumstances don't matter, unfortunately), she has "approved" of his parenting by leaving her children in his care. I take it he has been the one to take them to the doctor, sign them up for soccer and see to their general well-being.

Frankly, it sounds like both of them are selfish and entitled. And in all honesty, why should he shoulder the expense of carting the kids to your place for visitation when it was your daughter that chose to move so far away?

I think your daughter is due for a little tough love and a large dose of consequences. If she were smart, she would move close to the kids and start being involved in their lives and activities. Unless she does, it is my opinion that he will get custody, largely due to her choices.

Cat


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29663 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
Dreamboat
Member
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, November 9th (Saturday)

he's unable to enroll GS because of the lack of even temp orders

I do not believe that for a single minute. Because they are not D, then they are BOTH considered to be legal guardians. And even if they were D, the school really does not care who has primary custody, just that a legal guardian lives in the school zone. And in a D, both parents usually retain joint legal custody, which is why you often see kids go to school in a zone where they do not primarily live. What the school needs is a birth certificate and proof of residency. So if any of the kids are of school age (preK is not considered school age; K is in some states but not others) then you need to call the authorities and report it.

As far as the courts go, they will look at the status quo and the status quo is that the kids have been in the custody of their father for 2 years. Your DD would have to prove abuse or woeful neglect to have a chance. A child not being in school may be considered woeful neglect.

The courts don't care which person in a household actually cares for the kids, they care about where the kids live. If the courts cared about who feeds them and gives them baths, then custody would be routinely awarded to nannies and babysitters, but that does not happen. The courts also won;t care about his job history. Whatever it was, he has managed to take care of the kids for 2 years so it simply will not matter.

Honestly, I think your DD has a snowballs chance in hell of getting awarded custody in the current circumstances.


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17686 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 4:52 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

So you're saying the fact that they're constantly moving will have little to no impact on the court's decision? How can such instability be good for a child? Maybe it's just me but I can't imagine not knowing how long I'd be living in one place/going to the same school. My GS is 9 (and is ADHD) and has gone to a different school every year since 1st grade. Also, there's no guarantee J will continue with his meds. I don't even know if GS is taking his meds now although I do know that J stopped them once because he "decided" GS didn't need them anymore. No input from a pediatrician on this decision either. Granted, I don't know that much about ADHD meds but I would think that just stopping them (no tapering off) wouldn't be the the best thing to do, especially since the optimal dosage had just been found. IDK, maybe GS *doesn't* need them anymore but for a parent to just decide that with seemingly no thought as to the possible results sounds, perhaps not abusive, but somewhat reckless.

Perhaps I'm hoping against hope on this. All I know for sure is if J gets custody, I've lost my grandkids. In all this time he's not offered *even once* to bring them here to visit. I doubt he would even if they asked. Strike that. I *know* he wouldn't. He's a self-entitled dick who'll do what he wants regardless of who it affects.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Holly-Isis
Member
Member # 13447
Default  Posted: 6:42 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

I know this is your daughter but if J is that bad, what on earth could compel her to abandon her kids to him? You may not call it that. She may not call it that.

The courts will call it that and I would bet the kids feel like they've been abandoned. I know we did when mom left to be with her BF. They may never voice it, but the belief that mom didn't love them enough to stay will be heavy on their hearts.


"Being in love" first moved them to promise fidelity: this quieter love enables them to keep the promise. *CS Lewis*

Posts: 11225 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: Just a fool in limbo
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

I'm not saying he's terrible person. He does love his kids in his own way. I'm just saying that IMO he's not emotionally mature enough to really handle being a parent. He doesn't always put them first when he should, as with GSs meds. The deciding factor for that I believe was cost. If (when) he finds himself in a tough spot, he'll take the easy way out, such as when he loses a job. Instead of trying to find another (regardless of pay rate) he'll drag himself and the kids to a friend or family member's. And, while there, will make little to no effort to find employment. If he *does* find a job, it usually doesn't last long. That, coupled with his attitude, will usually ensure they will have to move again.

In the current situation, I believe there is also the revenge factor on his part. If he thinks someone wronged him, then he'll cut them out of his life and, by extension, the kids' lives. His mom wronged him, we wronged him, my sister and DD wronged him by not putting up with his bull. At least in his mind. He's been told he needs to step up to the plate and be responsible for his kids and he's usually responded with a "F*ck you" attitude. That's what I meant when I said he's probably handed responsibility for the kids over to his aunt. That way he can do what he wants and know the kids are being cared for. It's about what he wants, not what the kids need. Sound familiar? I think, with this attitude, he'll take getting custody as he gets to decide visitation. He'll refuse if it's not convenient for him or if he just doesn't feel like letting her see them. Despite what the court says.

Maybe it's just me but all the constant moving around would be unsettling. Not knowing with any certainty where they'll be month to month.

As for feelings of abandonment, IDK. I was essentially abandoned by my mother. After a few years, I didn't particularly want a relationship with her. I never really wondered why she didn't come see me when she could and I think I grieved her passing, not because she was my mother but because what could have been wasn't. But as for the kids, they may feel that way but they may also understand on some level that DD didn't *want* to leave them, but felt she had little choice at the time.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
LadyQ
Member
Member # 32847
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

I know in Texas, we will enroll ANY child in any district where the parent/guardian/presenting person resides. It's done in part because it has helped recover kidnapped/lost/homeless children. Once a school enrolls a child they are "in the system" and can be tracked throughout the state. I've seen it work in my district where the noncustodial parent didn't return the child after visitation and enrolled them in my district. Once we requested records, it alerted the custodial parens where their child was.

Not sure how that would work in other states, but it seems that if they are still legally married, without temporary orders, either parent would have the legal right to enroll the child. Just as they would if they weren't headed for divorce. Color me confused...


Tune out the noise of what others tell you about who you are and work it out for yourself...

Posts: 1650 | Registered: Jul 2011
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

I'm confused about the whole school issue as well LadyQ. I don't know if J *can't* enroll GS or *won't* enroll him. Just as I don't know if GS is taking his ADHD meds. As I said earlier, J stopped the meds because *he* felt they weren't needed any longer. It's my understanding that you just don't stop medications of that sort so J's decision on that issue wasn't in GS's best interest.

Bottom line is I know the court will decide what *it* thinks is in the kids' best interest. If that means they stay with J, then that's what it is. I don't have to like it, DD doesn't have to like it. But, if that's the result then I can see J trying to use it to deny DD visitation, even though legally he can't.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
LadyQ
Member
Member # 32847
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

Regarding the ADHD meds, it really depends on the type he's on. My DD takes Vyvanse and she can take it or not (like weekends and school holidays), and there are no "withdrawal" type effects. Hopefully, your gs's medicine is the same type so at least he isn't having to deal with that mess, too.


Tune out the noise of what others tell you about who you are and work it out for yourself...

Posts: 1650 | Registered: Jul 2011
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

First -- That 9 yo child, unless he is being homeschooled, needs to be in school. I don't know who is giving you your information about *why* he isn't in school....but does that *reason* that you were given really make sense to you? It makes NO sense to me. None. There are children attending our schools who are not lawful citizens -- so does it REALLY make sense to you that a child that IS a citizen is going to be turned away over some bullcrap reason? If I'm understanding correctly -- your DD and SIL aren't even divorced yet -- so the whole temp order reason sounds like bullshit.

Call whatever authority is supposed to be called and make a report that there is a child who is not going to school.


Second -- I think the chances of your DD getting anything more than minimal custody are very slim. NONE of what you wrote about the situation is going to matter. He can't keep a job and moves around a lot. So what? He lets *others* be responsible for caring for the kids. So what? It doesn't sound as if his irresponsibility is a *new* development. #1 -- If he is such an irresponsible guy, then why did your DD have not one, not two, but three kids with him??

And #2 is a biggie -- your DD LEFT HER CHILDREN. She didn't just move around the block or across town. She.Left.The.State. And she didn't just move across the state line. She.Moved three(!) states away. AND left her children with this guy who is supposedly completely irresponsible.

If you want to remain a part of your grandchildren's lives, then tell your DD to move her ass back into the town where her children live and start being a damn mom to them.

I am *cringing* every time I read that your SIL is being vengeful because your DD has *moved on*. I can understand that when she found out about your SIL's affair she may have made some unwise decisions in the moment -- but it has been 2 years! And she has *recovered* enough to *find* love again. Too bad she didn't *find* her kids first.......


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8081 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

gonna, yes I can tell DD to move back to Ohio but as she's an adult that's ultimately her decision. Her choices are hers. She chose to leave the kids with her H, she chose to move on and move away.

As for us being a part of the grandkids' lives, our hands ate tied. If SIL gets custody (as seems to be the consensus) then we have no way of contacting him to try to make arrangements for visits. Yes, we could ask DD for the information she has but there is zero guarantee that it would be current or how long it would remain current. There is also no guarantee that he would keep DD up to date on his residency.

Thanks for your input everyone. I guess I was hoping to find *something* that would tip the scales in DD's favor but I guess it isn't there.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, November 10th (Sunday)

I really am so sorry. It must be very hard to find yourself in a situation where you really can't *do* anything.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8081 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Griefstricken25
Member
Member # 29183
Default  Posted: 1:54 AM, November 11th (Monday)

This must be heartbreaking to watch, as grandparents. And to feel so helpless.

Sadly, I agree, the court is not going to care about SIL's personality and character flaws. I don't believe your DD will get anything but visitation, living so far away.

I'm so sorry for you and your husband, though.


Me!
3 amazing kidlets
To WXH "Now you're just somebody that I used to know." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9NF2edxy-M
D-day and separation - June, 2009
Divorced - December, 2011

Posts: 2524 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: A better place
dontknowwhyme
Member
Member # 21587
Default  Posted: 3:01 PM, November 11th (Monday)

I hate that you are in this situation. It has to be very difficult to be kept away from grandchildren.

I'm just saying that IMO he's not emotionally mature enough to really handle being a parent.

Sounds to me that he has been taking care of them for two years.

And softly, that is far more emotionally mature than to move 3 states away from your children, regardless of the reason. Just my opinion but I could not even imagine a good enough reason for me to move away from my children to a place that meant I could not see them like I do now. Noway nohow. Certainly not to be with a SO.

[This message edited by dontknowwhyme at 3:02 PM, November 11th (Monday)]


BS 38
FWW 37 (fireandice)
Married 13 Years - Together 20
D-Day1:Jan 08 (EA OM#1)
D-Day2:8-15-08 (EA/PA OM#2)
DS12, DS9
D-Day3:11-3-10
Divorced 1-27-11
Remember, you don't drown from being thrown in the water. You drown from staying in it.

Posts: 1004 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Ohio
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, November 11th (Monday)

dontknowwhyme, that's the thing, *he* really hasn't taken care of them for the last two years. He always seems to have someone else do it for him. Right now, it's his aunt. Before that it was more than likely the OW. He has little trouble handing the care of the kids over to someone else. Before the separation, it was DD's "job" to take care of them... or my sister's or mine. As long as he, personally, wasn't "bothered" by them he was okay with that.

Well, we should be getting word one way or the other. I'll keep you updated if you want.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
dontknowwhyme
Member
Member # 21587
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

I'll keep you updated if you want.

Please do


BS 38
FWW 37 (fireandice)
Married 13 Years - Together 20
D-Day1:Jan 08 (EA OM#1)
D-Day2:8-15-08 (EA/PA OM#2)
DS12, DS9
D-Day3:11-3-10
Divorced 1-27-11
Remember, you don't drown from being thrown in the water. You drown from staying in it.

Posts: 1004 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Ohio
TrustGone
Member
Member # 36654
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)

This has to be one of the saddest posts I have ever read since being on SI. The only ones hurting here are the children. Neither your DD or SIL need custody of children, as neither are responsible enough to make decisions for themselves, much less children. A child not being enrolled in school in any state, unless skillfully home schooled, is illegal and the authorities need to be called and this reported. This is a form of child neglect and anyone knowing of this is responsible for reporting it or they are also responsible for child neglect.

If you really want to see your grandchildren, then you need to step up to the plate and report this at once unless it is just hearsay on your part and you don't really know it to be a fact that your GS is not in school. Right now it is not the issue of who will get custody, it is the issue that you may know something that is harming your GS and are turning a blind eye to it in a way. I don't mean to be harsh, but it is the way I feel when I read this. (((HUGS)))


BW-50
WH#2-51
M-9 yrs T-11 yrs
4 children-none together
DD#1-9/5/11 LTA 2yrs
DD#2-7/3/12 False R
DD#3-4/29/13 (OW broke NC)
Status: Your guess is as good as mine.

Posts: 2420 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Texas
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 5:02 PM, November 12th (Tuesday)

TG, it *is* just hearsay on my part. Even if I knew *for sure* GS wasn't in school, I have no clue which district I would report it to. SIL could literally anywhere in the state. I have no idea where any of his family lives and therefore no way to find out where he is currently. All I know is what DD told us in the short time we saw her while she was in town. And honestly, I'm not sure how much of this info came from stbxSIL or how accurate it is. If it *did* come from stbxSIL he could very well be... dishonest about it just to make DD worry. Like I said in a previous post, he's very much a typical unremorseful wayward so I wouldn't put it past him to do and say things just to screw with her head.

As for DD not being responsible enough to make decisions for herself much less the kids, part of the reason she moved was for a fresh start, so she could give the kids more stability than they've been getting with their father. I still say moving every year (if not more) is not good for them. They have no chance to even begin putting down roots. I think in the last three years they must have moved half a dozen times or more. Even "military brats" don't move that often.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I know she could have made a fresh start here in Ohio but that would have been no guarantee the situation would be different.

I wish I'd seen this coming, I really do. We'd have taken her *and* the kids despite the crowding. Three adults and three kids in a one bedroom house would have been a bit... cozy but if it would have saved DD from this incertainty, we'd have managed. We did before in the last place we lived. But I guess I'm more of an optimist than I wanted to believe.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5891 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
little turtle
Member
Member # 15584
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, November 14th (Thursday)

Just checking for an update. Do you know when you'll hear something?


Failure is success if we learn from it.

Posts: 4202 | Registered: Aug 2007 | From: michigan
Topic Posts: 44