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Reconciliation
User Topic: Please Everyone answer this question !!
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 7:05 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Sorry I'm kind of posting the same topic again.

But I want as many responses as possible.

So last night I asked my WS for full access to her acct. She fought it..... Still don't have it.

Can't you all please take a min and explain to her your opinion on full access. Is it mandatory for me to heal?


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She is hiding something. Drop the subject. Install a key logger. Get the passwords yourself. Make copies of anything you find.


BS 39
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better. Reconciled from the A's but still working hard for a better tomorrow.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2415 | Registered: Aug 2012
heartbrokeninaz
Member
Member # 40779
Default  Posted: 7:11 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

If she is not willing it looks to you like she is hiding something. I have every password to every account my husband has. It does not mean I check them every day, but if I feel the need to it is my perogative. It is hard to trust a WS and they need to help in that healing process by doing whatever it takes.


BW 40 (me)
WH 40
DS 6
"Love is patient it is kind"
DDay 07/31/13 ONS with horseface

Posts: 122 | Registered: Sep 2013
deb3129
Member
Member # 30315
Default  Posted: 7:14 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Yes, I think it is mandatory for your healing, especially if you feel that it is. My WH gave me full access immediately after DDay to his emails, his phone, his checking account info, anything else I wanted. Three years later I still have access to all of that, and if he changes a password he tells me, every time. I am sad to say that every once in a while, even though it is still 3 years later, I do check.

But the fact that he gave me full access, and still knows that I check,and does not care, does a LOT to reassure me that he is still doing exactly what he needs to be. One of the things that should have been a warning sign for me but never was, was the fact that he never liked me to touch his phone. Now it makes my heart glad every time I walk over, pick up his phone and do what I want, without him blinking an eye.

I think that some WS see the access as an invasion to their privacy, and I can see how if would feel that way. But the bottom line is, those of us who have been betrayed need every reassurance possible that it will not happen to us again. There are never any guarantees, but anything that gives us just a little bit of security helps a lot. If a WS is still guarding things, it is obviously going to make us feel that they are hiding something ,whether they are or not. Deciding to reconcile takes a LOT on our parts, and we are constantly second guessing whether it is a good idea or not, especially initially. So things like being protective of accounts just makes us wonder even more if we are making a huge mistake trying to trust again.

My WS actually offered before being asked to give me full access to everything. But if he had not, thanks to this site, I would have asked for it pretty early on, and it would have been one of the requirements for me to try reconciliation.


I am pessimistically optimistic


Me- 43
WH- 36
Married 14 years, together 17. Two kids together, boys age 9 and 10.
DDay-11/29/2010
I never knew that something could be this painful and not kill you.


Posts: 767 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Southeast Texas
homewrecked2011
Member
Member # 34678
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She wants the security of having you and her home.

She wants the "rush" of someone else wanting her.


I was in the same situation with my WH. I stopped him in his tracks when I said, "I will not have a fake marriage. I deserve a real spouse. You will go to MC and IC and come clean to me on everything and give me full access to all of your accounts." THis, by the way is what my friend who DID have an affair on her husband told me. She said having this accountability kept her out of denial, kept her in reality, and kept her away from the OM.

Anyway, this was too much for my WS to handle, so he left. I immediately filed divorce papers on him. He's with the OW, but I know it won't be forever, as she is cheating on him.

I have never had to beg someone like a whimpering abused dog to love me and realize the awesome person I am. If you are doing this,,, it's time to stand tall and kick her ass to the curb, as she is never going to "get" your feelings, and you will be in the hell you are in now ---forever.

If you will hold her accountable, she will stay out of denial and hopefully you guys will have an awesome marriage.

[This message edited by homewrecked2011 at 7:20 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


me BS 52
him - 46
married 15 years DIVORCED 10 31 12
children - ds15 ds12
d-day 12-19-11
I gave a 24hour ultimatum then went to attorney next day
Divorce filed

Posts: 1700 | Registered: Jan 2012
KatieG
Member
Member # 41222
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

It seems to be that hiding her account from you is more important than your peace of mind and therefore your relationship.


DD#1 - 6th Oct 13 - TT
DD#2 - 9th Nov 13 - Full disclosure
7 week A, 2 weeks together, rest phone and email - PA and EA
NC with OW since 11th Nov 13.

Posts: 214 | Registered: Nov 2013
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I think what has made this harder for her, is that our Dday was 3 year ago. I didn't ask for full access back then. But now I am.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
Alyssamd24
Member
Member # 39005
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

WS here....hope you don't mind the response. Yes you should have full access to all of her accounts....if she is being honest with you and truly wants to fix your M it shouldn't be an issue......I gave my BH full access to my accounts even though he said he didn't want them because he doesn't want to have to spy.....but he at least has them now and can have that security


"I need to be redeemed to the one I've sinned against because he's all I ever knew of love"

Posts: 528 | Registered: Apr 2013
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

has she read "How to help your spouse heal from your affair?"

i would be very calm about it. Say, this is how recovery is going to go - full transparency or no recovery.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3627 | Registered: Dec 2010
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

rachelc I don't know if she has. What is that?? Where can I find a link to send her.

Thanks so much guys. I want all opinions here. So WS are more than welcome to post replies. Actually since my end game is reconciliation I encourage WS's to post on all my threads. I want to know how things sit from both sides.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
RipsInMyChest
Member
Member # 41166
Default  Posted: 7:44 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

It doesn't matter that it was 3 years ago for your WW.... In fact, my opinion is WS might be good for a year or so and then find a new AP after things of calm down. (If that's the kind of person they are.) I actually worry more about 5-10 years from now than I do right now.

I will never stop checking.... I will still check 20 years from now if I feel the need.


Me: BW 41
FWH 41
Together 21 yrs, M 18, 2 kids
DDay: 12/11/12 ONS with CW
Used condom, got chlamydia anyway.

His betrayal of me was not because I didn't shine brightly enough, but because he chose to put on blinders.


Posts: 181 | Registered: Oct 2013
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

How to help your spouse heal from your affair is a book. You can buy the kindle version and read it online. Now as for you not having access I think its ridiculous. If she wants to help you and is serious about reestablishing trust then why not? If she has nothing to hide then who cares if you can see it all. I realized that when he refused to share PW's with me is when I started really digging....what I found broke my heart.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2362 | Registered: Oct 2012
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Transparency is for life, not for the first few months after DDay. She has shown you that she will cheat, so she needs to be transparent, always. Either that, or she needs to be single.

She'll probably give you access today, after she's created a new account that you don't know about, cleaned up the old one, and is all set with you seeing this old account now.

Get the key logger. She's hiding something.


Don't water the plants - they're plastic

Posts: 1261 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

IMO Yes.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6149 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 8:02 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Can't you all please take a min and explain to her your opinion on full access. Is it mandatory for me to heal?
I don't believe in the concept of the WS being responsible for your healing.

You need to look at her actions and decide what to do with your life.

Every situation is different and I'm sure some people heal whether or not they get "full access." I divorced my first H and I still healed. I got very few answers or details from him. Well, I knew more than I wanted to, as it was and made the decision to end it.

It sounds like you want to guide her in what she "should do." I guess that works for some, but for me, if my FWS did not come up with everything on his own, how to show me how remorseful he was, and how he was devoting his entire life to proving he could be a man who deserves me for his wife, then I would have told him to hit the road. And yes, my H gave me full access, passwords, etc. to all his internet and phone stuff. But it was his idea to do that, not mine. That makes a huge difference to me, and is the main reason my H and I are still together 7 years later.


Posts: 5575 | Registered: Apr 2006
BaxtersBFF
Member
Member # 26859
Default  Posted: 8:06 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Another WS opinion...

There is privacy and the there are secrets. Secrets shouldn't exist in an M. Privacy is what you have when you close the bathroom door. That's about it.

My BW doesn't really check anything of mine anymore, but I'm not tied to my phone or laptop like I was back during and after the A. None of my devices are locked, and all of my accounts are available to her anytime she wants to see them. There isn't anything in any of those devices or accounts that I would feel she couldn't see. That is what being married is all about IMO. Especially after infidelity. Especially for the WS if they want to earn any trust back from their BS.

I know there are many BS's who won't give access to their WS's. That's fine, especially early on when the BS needs support and the WS isn't doing anything to help toward R. But eventually, I think most BS's end up offering access to their accounts too.

And yes, it is pretty damn easy to hide accounts. email addresses are free, so why not just create another one and hide stuff in there? Well, then you have to start keeping track of what's where, there will always be that fear that you forgot to close that app or log out of that account. Oh, and then there is the thought that "well, I can do this or say that in this account because nobody knows I have it" which adds another avenue to do things that you might not otherwise do, like having inappropriate conversations with strangers, or with people who aren't friends of the M.

Life is just so much easier when there's nothing left to hide. At first it may seem that you are surrendering, that you are walking around with your tail in-between your legs and sulking, but eventually you start realizing how freeing it is to not be living your life in such a way that you are feeling the need to hide things and always having that edge of defensiveness about your privacy.

Just let it all go.


WH - 44
BW - gerrygirl

Posts: 6036 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: Boise
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Very simply:

Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

If she is fighting this, arguing it, or unwilling to be completely transparent then you need to be very concerned.

I had, all the excuses early on, "I will never have any privacy again" "I will not be babysat" blah de blah. The funny thing is when he really started to do the hard work of R, and when he was all in, all that shit went away. It's just noise to either guilt you into shutting up, or gaslighting you into feeling bad for not trusting.

The truth of the matter is you don't trust, you shouldn't trust, and eveytime there is pushback yhou should be concerned and have your hackles raised up.

When you have full access, and can snoop freely, and never be made to feel bad about it, that's when you can start healing, and it takes about 40 Bazillion of those episodes, and real changes in behavior in your partner for you to really trust again. If they don't get that, or are pissed off by it, then they are not interested in you healing, or the relationship healing.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 14 & 16
Married for 21 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 6558 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

has she read "How to help your spouse heal from your affair?"
i would be very calm about it. Say, this is how recovery is going to go - full transparency or no recovery.

Rachelc----she is wise, listen to her.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012 by 1 email to OM...OM did NOT respond.
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not yet incurred...may never incur.

Posts: 2672 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
HardenMyHeart
Member
Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

So last night I asked my WS for full access to her acct. She fought it

What were her reasons against providing access?

If your WS does not provide access, it's safe to assume there is likely more painful information you would discover. My guess is that you have probably not yet received full disclosure regarding the affair.

I recommend reading the following article in "The Healing Library" titled, What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile:
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/reconciliation/reconcile_musts.asp

[This message edited by HardenMyHeart at 9:06 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 29 years, Happily Reconciled

Posts: 5613 | Registered: Aug 2007
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Mandatory. She has to be a glass house, as far as you are concerned. Her primary concern should be your emotional well-being, and rebuilding trust between you. That's it. She should be volunteering that information to you.

As a woman, I totally understand a very, very deep need for privacy. It's a woman thing, I think - we need a space of our own, that nobody else can touch, even if it's very small. I get that. Buy her a journal.

Any opportunity for communication with another person where you do not have open and easy access, is clearly, CLEARLY a deep concern. The fact that she would resist that says that her primary concern is self-preservation, not the rebuilding of your marriage. She's hiding something.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 572 | Registered: Jul 2013
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Considering your posts about her telling you she still has an emotional attachment to OM, my guess is she is fighting transparency because she is still in contact with OM. Or, if he does contact her, she wants to make sure you don't know about it.

Complete transparency after an affair is a must. For the rest of the marriage. There is no time limit. This is a necessary consequence to her actions.

She should want to do everything possible to help you feel safe. That she is fighting this is beyond a red flag,IMO.

Also, if I am correct, your WW is a member here on SI,and is posting and reading. If this is true, a keylogger is useless..because if she is in contact with OM..she's been tipped off and will just take it further underground.


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: R? I don't know..ask me tomorrow..it changes rapidly.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 6635 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
forgivingnow
Member
Member # 33549
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

My husband has told me I want you to be able to look at my computer or phone anytime, I love you, I have nothing to hide, I want you to feel safe.
I don't believe you can get to a true emotionally and physically intimate relationship until you have transparency and no secrets.
From 'The Seven Levels of Intimacy' by Matthew Kelly, he states "Accountability is wonderful because it is a relational tool that forcefully propels a person along the path toward the-best-version-of-himself or herself." And goes on to say one "reason people don't have great relationships is that they have no accountability in their relationships. They stay out of each others's business, so to speak. Intimacy is about being involved, intimately, with each other's business."
It takes effort and time to get to that point. Keep working on "us".


Me-BS 51
FWH-50
M 30 yrs
Dday 3-19-11, TT 10/2011, Full truth July 2013
Strength comes from within. You can't get it from someone or go somewhere to get it. It is already here, waiting to be used when you need it most. Believe in yourself.
R

Posts: 576 | Registered: Oct 2011
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She is still hiding shit. If she is talking about a connection with the OM then between the two of these flags I'd call a lawyer.

A relationship where a spouse resents any sharing of privacy is not founded on solid ground anyway, IMO.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7099 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

1. She's hiding things

2. She's still in the A

A wayward spouse even remotely interested in reconciliation will go above and beyond what it takes to help the BS, full transparency included.

A wayward spouse that fights tooth and nail and throws a hissy fit in the name of "privacy" is an entitled foggy nightmare that will inevitably produce another Dday.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"You can do it!" - R. Schneider


Posts: 5435 | Registered: Nov 2011
Kierst13
Member
Member # 39197
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She has now had since last night to remove any incriminating evidence and also to set up new accounts to take everything underground.

If she refuses to be transparent how will you ever learn to trust her?


Story in my profile
He lied, I gave the gift of R
He became the model remorseful WS...all while lying and seeing her
Am I done? Yes I am!

Posts: 346 | Registered: May 2013
WhatsRight
Member
Member # 35417
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing

THIS ^^^^

Also, by not being transparent, she is placing her 'will' or her perceived right to privacy, over your feelings.

That is not behavior worthy of true healing.


"Noone can make you feel inferior without your concent." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy


Posts: 1812 | Registered: Apr 2012
WhatsRight
Member
Member # 35417
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Also, I think we need to look at transparency as accountability - as someone said before.

Even the best people with the highest standards in the world will 'slack' a little bit at work if not supervised. A report will be a bit late if noone is watching or cares. Noone is perfect.

But for the person who has already crossed boundaries - at the expense of their spouse - accountability is KEY.

And the refusal to give transparency speaks volumes.

[This message edited by WhatsRight at 9:48 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


"Noone can make you feel inferior without your concent." Eleanor Roosevelt

I will not be vanquished. Rose Kennedy


Posts: 1812 | Registered: Apr 2012
refuz2bavictim
Member
Member # 27176
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She is hiding something. She is not to be trusted. She seeks to keep control by keeping information to herself.

Once she realizes you are serious about not accepting the crumbs she's giving you, she will probably attempt (if she hasn't already done it) to clean out the information she doesn't want you to have.

She is showing you what's most important to her, and that isn't you.


BS:ME DDay: 7/18/09 Last of TT 7/11/10
MOW's EA/PA all were my "friends" but one


Posts: 2360 | Registered: Jan 2010
chasinglove
New Member
Member # 41417
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I recently asked mine for the passwords to his accts, he's been extremely open in R and said he had nothing to hide but still didn't offer them up, so I let it go, gave him space and time and just waited.
He provided it a couple of days later - I don't think he's having another A but I think he needed to go back in time and delete anything that might give me a trigger.
I have the passwords but I haven't felt the need to check his accts, just wanted him to be 100% open.


Me: 31
Him: 37
Together for 14 years.
DD: 04/30/2013
OW: colleague from previous job he'd been having an A with for 4 years, and a couple of others from school he slept with prior to that. He ended A in front of me at my request, trying R and MC.

Posts: 7 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I get everything you are all saying. I am confident the A is long over. But I need to know she hasn't reached out to him

Her biggest point is that I shouldn't have the right to see/read everything she says to her best friends. That she wants/needs to be able to vent to them freely.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Vent about what? You? the marriage? What is she mad about?

If she has a problem then she needs to be an adult and talk to YOU..not her friends.


Are these friends of the marriage? If so, and she is venting to them about you, she isn't being very fair to those friends. if they are also your friends, she is putting them in the middle. Did any of them know about the affair..and not tell you? if so, they need to go. they are not your friends,nor are they friends of your marriage.

Full transparency..no excuses.

There is a difference between privacy and secrecy. In a marriage, you should have access to everything.

MY WH is fully transparent. If he gets an off text,or a call from someone whose number he doesn't recognize, he shows me right away..he WANTS me to feel secure.

It doesn't matter what her reasons are..she chose to cheat..the consequences of that, if she wants to R, is full transparency. Period.

Ok..the affair is over...and you're sure. Yet she has an emotional attachment to him? Even knowing that he affair shattered her husband? Even knowing that you are still in pain?

It seems odd that she loves you..but 3 years later,is still attached to OM. She should feel disgust...or,preferably, indifference. Anything more and that is a problem.

[This message edited by confused615 at 10:23 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: R? I don't know..ask me tomorrow..it changes rapidly.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 6635 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She fought it..... Still don't have it.

She's hiding something. It could be affair related, or she's trash-talking you to others, or something else she doesn't want you to see. Sorry man, but there's no way to sugarcoat this.

Consider a hard 180.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1024 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Razor
Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Anything she shows you now from that account is worthless. She has had time to delete anything that might look bad.

Keylogger. Get the password yourself and monitor the account without her knowing.

BUT even if you do that she may know that you are on to her regarding THAT account and create a new one you wont know about.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3074 | Registered: Sep 2007
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 10:29 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Her biggest point is that I shouldn't have the right to see/read everything she says to her best friends. That she wants/needs to be able to vent to them freely.
I am a firm believer in a WS having a safe place to vent without fear of repercussion. But the WS and BS need to be in agreement on where that source is. Journal, SI, one or two trusted friends of the marriage, (not just the individual) IC. A WS needs a safe place to vent things out. We do have feelings and crap to work thru.

However, her argument sends up a red flag or 10. What is she venting about? Why? What is she saying about you? Is she painting you in an unfair, completely biased light?

Having these conversations with other people and not you does not equal R. It's keeping other people in your relationship. She's keeping part of herself from you. Not cool Bro.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"You can do it!" - R. Schneider


Posts: 5435 | Registered: Nov 2011
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Vent about what? You? the marriage? What is she mad about?
If she has a problem then she needs to be an adult and talk to YOU..not her friends.

That's what I see. She doesn't see you as a partner she can trust. You are not on her team. You are an interloper with no right to invade her privacy.

The fact that she doesn't have the maturity to be open and honest with you about her thoughts and feelings -- even when she is mad -- is a bigger a red flag about her, than just talking to someone behind your back.

This is not mandatory for you to heal, but it's mandatory for your M to heal, and likely needed for your WS to heal too.


Growing forward

Posts: 1444 | Registered: Sep 2011
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I think it is utterly disrespectful to vent about our spouses to outside parties. This is part of learning about healthy boundaries. Your wife has none. In R, you need to turn toward one another, not away.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 5851 | Registered: Jan 2011
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Wow !!! Very strong feelings with this one here.

Something you all should know is that I have never been one to open up and communicate my feelings either. I understand the need to have a shoulder to lean on. The people she turns to are her friends YES, but really she should not be entitled to have friends now ?? How is that healthy.??

She screwed up.. Yes.
But asking her to give up everything in her life that is not me. That is very selfish..... And not something I would ask.

If she did that. It would totally change her. She wouldn't be happy. She wouldn't be the woman I fell in love with. She cares deeply for her friends. She is not the cold hearted bitch you all paint her as.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I'm going to answer again as a former WS.
There is no privacy in my marriage. What would be the purpose?

I question other's need to have it. Why?
Venting to her friends about something she doesn't want you to see means keeping secrets. Not sure how this can help in a marriage recovering from an A.

Again ask yourself for what purpose? Why does her need for privacy trump YOUR need for transparency? Her life may become unhappy? Horrors! - welcome to cheaterland - where things change permanently or else.

[This message edited by rachelc at 12:17 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3627 | Registered: Dec 2010
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Another WS opinion here. Phones, computers, social media should be transparent. IC and journal should be private IF it is for the purpose of healing the dysfunction and not for the purpose of mooning over the OM.

Just my opinion.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1912 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
chasinglove
New Member
Member # 41417
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

(((Leafan1976)))

Agreed, asking someone to give everything up changes them, there has to be a limit and boundaries set.
Even though my husband has his issues and made his mistakes I still want him to be his own person, he still needs his own personal space. It is true that we're still at a point of trying to repair and regain that trust and therefore transparency is needed but they still need to have their own lives.


Me: 31
Him: 37
Together for 14 years.
DD: 04/30/2013
OW: colleague from previous job he'd been having an A with for 4 years, and a couple of others from school he slept with prior to that. He ended A in front of me at my request, trying R and MC.

Posts: 7 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Leafan, I'm a FWW. Yes, my opinions are strong. However, I'm not trying to tear either of you down or make her the "bad guy".

I have never been one to open up and communicate my feelings either.
Gently, you both will have to overcome this. Communication is imperative for a successful marriage. Not her venting to other people. Not you stuffing your feelings and beliefs. But both of you sitting down and having super hard, grown up conversations about your deepest fears, hurts, angers, resentments, the good, the bad, the ugly.

I understand the need to have a shoulder to lean on.
Again gently, why can't you be her shoulder to lean on? You know who I bare my ugly, scarred, wayward soul to? My husband. Because for 8 1/2 years, I hid myself from him. I used other people, other sources. I never opened myself up fully to him. Not till our world was rocked by my infidelity did I realize just how shut off from him I really was. I know what true emotional intimacy looks like and I absolutely refuse to put up another wall between my husband and I ever again.

But asking her to give up everything in her life that is not me.
Asking for transparency when the relationship has been scarred by infidelity is not asking her to give everything up. It's asking her to open up to you. Because all those years ago when you stood at that alter, you in a tux, her and a white gown, you both promised to love, honor, cherish, and forsake all others. Asking for transparency just so you can see with your own eyes whether she is still NC is not asking her to give "everything" up.

She is not the cold hearted bitch you all paint her as.
I'm not saying that she's a cold hearted witch. But I do see very wayward tendencies. Because I had the same ones.

That "privacy" and insistence that she doesn't/shouldn't have to be emotionally intimate and completely open with you, could kill your marriage friend.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"You can do it!" - R. Schneider


Posts: 5435 | Registered: Nov 2011
PinkJeepLady
Member
Member # 37575
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Hey, here are some more thoughts. I understand the need for privacy in general. I too talk to my girlfriends, not bashing my WH, but more of a "girl talk" kind of thing. I wouldn't care if he overheard us talking, but I guess I wouldn't want him analyzing every word if that makes sense. My long time friends have actually been very supportive of WH and I have shared their comments with him. He was surprised because he thought they would hate him.
I never had the thought of checking up on my WH until dday itself when his ipod with his email just about fell into my lap. I was compelled to look and the rest is history. For me, every time I felt the urge to check on him, I found things from the past that were important to talk about and deal with. It has been kind of strange. He voluntarily gave me the passwords and I have checked a couple of times, nothing new.
My point is that if you have a "feeling" that something needs to be checked out then by all means go with that. Maybe it's nothing but you will at least be at peace with it.
I think a wayward spouse gives up their right to privacy with text/email and other communication when they chose to cheat. She changed the rules, not you. She needs to give you what YOU need to feel safe, period.
Now, as far a a "girl gab fest", she can do that over lunch, happy hour, whatever. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Hopefully she has friends who are supportive and friends of your marriage.
For me, I like having the passwords, kind of like just in case. Maybe that's what you need too? I say, go with your instinct. Also, maybe you are looking for an attitude of "I will do whatever it takes to make this work!" from her?
I am sure she isn't cold hearted at all, maybe just normally a very private person?
Take care and I hope you get what you need!


Me: BW-54. Him-FWH 54. DDay June 1st 2012 cheating with prostitutes overseas
R-ing
"Not everything that counts is counted. Not everything that is counted counts." Albert Einstein

Posts: 459 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Out West
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Ask yourself this:

Does she NOT need to change who she is in order to successfully reconcile?

I strongly recommend some independent reading, starting with Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass if you are so inclined. You wife needs to be an open book. Period. She shouldn't be saying anything, to anyone, that she wouldn't want you to see. Why would she need to do that? Are you two a team or are you not?


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 5851 | Registered: Jan 2011
unfound
Member
Member # 12802
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Are you willing/able to stay in this marriage (and thrive) if she continues to refuse transparency?

Is she willing to choose her M over her "privacy" or vice versa?

Reasons, justifications, explanations, situations, and excuses aside, it comes down to this.

Once those decisions (and other foundation building ones) are made, then the work to reconcile (or not) can begin...because if this is an issue now, after 3 years, there were some things that weren't dealt with or were done out of placation or temporary/bandaid fixes.

Figure out what your boundaries are, then defend them.



ka-mai
*******************
Hey you, would you help me to carry the stone ...

Posts: 14747 | Registered: Nov 2006 | From: mercury's underboob
jackson
Member
Member # 18819
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I believe in complete transparency in a M. One's S should not be talking to someomne else about problems which they should be addressing with their S. JMO.

Posts: 790 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Midwest
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I don't think anyone is giving you the advice they are because they think she is a "coldhearted bitch."

The advice is pretty standard for a successful R...full transparency,no friends who aren't friends of the marriage,NC(this includes mental contact/the emotional connection she has to him), and putting your spouse and marriage above your friends.

You are not asking her to give everything up but you. You are asking her to be accountable and respectful of your feelings..and the fragile place she has put your marriage due to her affair. You are asking her to be open and honest with you. You are asking her to put you first.

If her friends are concerned about you seeing things they text about their own lives..I get that. But..she had an affair..and owes complete transparency to her husband,first and foremost. Her friend can change the way she communicates..she can call her,or see her in person. But her phone should be completely open to you.

She should WANT to do this. It helps build trust. Complete transparency is absolutely a must..if you want to R successfully.


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: R? I don't know..ask me tomorrow..it changes rapidly.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 6635 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Leafan1976,

You asked her to show you her phone and email accounts, tools of her A and betrayal, so that you could confirm she is doing what she said she would (maintaining NC) and she refused. Another way to look at this is you turned to her for help in repairing trust and connection in the M and she said no.

Razor is right that nothing she shows you now will mean anything, because she has had time to clean-up the account or set up a hidden or alternative method of communication.

You can try to install key loggers and other tracking software to monitor her communication. You can spy on her, and track her. You can worry about what you missed or she slipped by. If you WW does not care enough about you and her M to try and make things right nothing you do will help. So, here is my advice.

Assume she had evidence of contact with OM on her phone. Had she showed you the phone and you had seem proof of contact, what would you have done? Do that. Now, tell her that for good reason you do not trust her, and it is on her to prove to you that she is maintaining NC, that she is working to address her issues and to repair the M. Tell her you will not be her warden, that it is on her to figure out how to fix her mess, and then show you that she is doing it. You will be happy to work with her, but the burden to figure it all out, take action, and sustain action is on her. Then, believe only what you see.

If she does not prove to you that she is maintaining NC, assume she is not. If she does not prove to you that she is working on her stuff, attending IC, getting better, assume that she is not. If she does not prove to you that she wants to be M’d to you, that she desires you, presume that she does not. Make your decisions on only what you see from her.

Meanwhile, focus on yourself. Expand your network of friends, find activities you can do without relying on your WW, shore up your finances, exercise, and return to hobbies you set aside when you married. Attend some IC too help work through your post dday issues.

Good Luck, and enjoy the games on Saturday.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

This is part of learning about healthy boundaries.

In R, you need to turn toward one another, not away.

^^ what Rebreather said.

Leafsfan, people are trying to point out what R looks like. Transparency is needed but it goes deeper than wanting to keep tabs on your spouse. Aubrie nailed that. You aren't exempt from that work either.

IMO, you heal when you start to look at what you can change and focus more on that.


Growing forward

Posts: 1444 | Registered: Sep 2011
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Something you all should know is that I have never been one to open up and communicate my feelings either. I understand the need to have a shoulder to lean on. The people she turns to are her friends YES, but really she should not be entitled to have friends now ?? How is that healthy.??

I'm a bit confused. Did you want us to tell you that it's fine for her to hide her emails? Were you looking for someone to tell you that you were being unreasonable?

No one here is painting her as a cold hearted bitch. We are painting her as someone that has proven that it isn't beneath her to cheat. We are painting her as someone that, due to her own actions, is suspect and needs to go above and beyond to have the trust that is needed in a relationship. We are painting her as someone that will behave in very unhealthy ways if something sets her off.

We are painting YOU as someone that has asked for something that is a very normal request given the circumstances. We are saying that transparency is needed, and she should give it willingly. We are saying that someone that will not share their emails is hiding something in them. Maybe it isn't cheating. I don't know. I do know she doesn't want you to see her emails. That should trouble you.

You came here to ask the opinions of people that have in some way been touched by infidelity. You knew exactly what the answers would be before writing it, so again, I'm a bit confused.

If she wants to vent to her friends, she can call them. She has plenty of ways to communicate besides email. So what exactly is she worried about?

You have your own doubts or you wouldn't be here asking. You are now defending her, which is really too bad because you are firm on the side of 'let her have her private emails' because you don't like people saying she may be hiding something.

It was a simple request that you asked of her. What reason, besides really shitting on you to her friends or cheating, is there to hide?


Don't water the plants - they're plastic

Posts: 1261 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

But asking her to give up everything in her life that is not me. That is very selfish..... And not something I would ask

You aren't asking her to do that.

You are asking her to be honest and open....

Unless, honest and open aren't her, then you have bigger problems my friend.


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3208 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

First of all in a healthy marriage a spouse should not feel a need to go to someone else or anyone else about the issues of the M. Given that you are in a M that one of you have had an A, you know that your M is not healthy.

Given the above, you have to get to healthy within yourself, within your M, and your W has to heal herself and get healthy too. Part of that is doing things that she may not like, you may not like, or are very uncomfortable for the both of you. If you choose not to fine, but know that you will be setting yourself up for future pain and suffering.

You have been given an opportunity to heal and help each other, and even though she feels a need to have someone to vent to, it shouldn't be anyone other than you or a therapist, or a possibly a priest/pastor/rabbi. She should not be saying anything to anyone ever that she can't say or repeat in front of you. Sure I will occasionally bitch about my H to someone else, but if it were repeated I could confidently say to him, yes this is how I feel, and you are behaving like an ass.

She has lost all right to privacy, and secrecy. Without being 110%transparent know that you should not trust her. Like others have said if she offers it up now, know that she has cleaned it up. Also don't for a second think that she has not opened a new email that you are completely unaware of. I'm not saying she is doing it to mean, or hateful, or cause problems, but that she feels the need to have secrets, and will continue to behave that way until she called out on it, has consequences for it, or heals whatever it is within herself that drives this need.

I would stop arguing with her, tell her you fully expect 100% transparency. Then if she fights it again, and even if she doesn't I would install a keylogger. Just my 2 cents worth.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 14 & 16
Married for 21 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 6558 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Yes I knew what the answers were going to be regarding transparency. What I want expecting is to be told she should not be entitled to have her own friends anymore. That seems extream to me. Maybe I'm an idiot. But that's how I feel.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Leafan1976,

...to be told she should not be entitled to have her own friends anymore

You are getting a lot of advice offered by folks. A very small part of that refers to the friends, and as I read it the comments re: friends was more about ensuring that her friends are Friends of the Marriage. Also, this is not a permanent thing regarding total access, but until trust is restored many of us do not want to let our WS decide what communications we can and cannot see.

Ignore the friends part if it does not feel right and work on implementing the rest of the advice and you will be off to a great start.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

To answer your question, full access is mandatory. Doesn't mean you have to use it. I haven't checked FWW e-mail in months. Phone, weeks.

Point is, I have it, as she has full access to mine. There are some things that she is uncomfortable with me seeing, but accepts that in a true marriage(remember that part about two becoming 1?) there are no secrets. She was scared that if I saw her venting that I would leave. I told her that everyone vents. I'm not perfect(well, almost), she has a right to vent about me sometimes.

What we're trying to do is open the doors of communication so that there is no need to vent. Be completely honest with each other. If there's a need to vent, do it right away. Don't let it fester.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2063 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Edited because my post was not helpful.

[This message edited by SuperDuperWonderboy at 3:20 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
notquiteoverit
Member
Member # 32919
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

She is hiding something. Reconciliation should mean FULL transparency. You should have access to anything you want. Anything less, I would suggest doing the 180.


Me - BS 50
Him - WS 49
SOW - 52 destitute loser
D-day 1/28/11

Posts: 542 | Registered: Jul 2011
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

What we're trying to do is open the doors of communication so that there is no need to vent. Be completely honest with each other. If there's a need to vent, do it right away. Don't let it fester.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Good point, if your WS needs a friend to vent about you or the M to, then you, your WS, and the M never get a chance to develop honest communication, for intimacy.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Yes I knew what the answers were going to be regarding transparency. What I want expecting is to be told she should not be entitled to have her own friends anymore. That seems extream to me. Maybe I'm an idiot. But that's how I feel.

I didn't read that, but I can see where you did. Of course she should have friends. Everyone should. No one can be the soul support system for another. Her life should include everything that everyone else's does. She just needs to be willing to be more transparent with things like emails, facebook, cell phone, etc. That is very reasonable given the history, imo. If she is ripping you to her friends in emails, well that's wrong anyway, and as I said, she can call them to vent if she needs to. She shouldn't be doing that, but you can see that she is on a call with a friend by the phone number without knowing what they discussed, right?

I think it's great that you want to defend her. I truly do. But please, don't go so far that you defend her 'right' to keep her emails private because you think some answers went too far. That doesn't help your marriage at all.

Again, you asked for those passwords for a reason. I'm not saying she is acting different or that you suspect something. I'm just saying that something made you decide to ask for them. Her saying no should be a red flag.


Don't water the plants - they're plastic

Posts: 1261 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Not sure where you got that she shouldn't have friends. Of course she should have friends. To have you and only you for a friend, is not healthy.

Of course if her friends are not friends of the M, meaning that they encourage poor boundaries, or discourage fidelity, or even dis on you she shouldn't be hanging with those people. In addition she probably shouldn't be allowed to just go and do with them whenever she wants until you start to rebuild trust.

Listen prior to Dday I didnt care if H went out with buddies, and if he had a few drinks, or went to strip clubs, because I trusted him, and knew he would behave, after he lied to me, and had his A, and then used his friends as an excuse to see OW, I didn't trust him going out with them, because he had proven himself untrustworthy. Ony one friend knew of the A during the A, and of course he is no longer a friend in any way. When he did go out with friends or go on hunting trips, with " The guys" he always provided me with their phone numbers, and encouraged me to contact them if I needed to to make sure that he was where he would be, because he got it, he knew that he had ruined that trust and the only way to rebuild it was for him to earn it. I would text and call sometimes, and thankfully last year I had those numbers, because H lost his phone, and I was able to contact a friend to find out if he was alive or not, since I hadn't heard from him.

So my point is if she really gets it, then she will be doing anything and everything to help you, and start earning trust back.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 14 & 16
Married for 21 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 6558 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Trying2Survive1
Member
Member # 40022
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Since finding out about FWH's ONS (happened in 07)I found out about it 7/5/13 and the continued contact between them on FB. We now move forward in R with full transparency. I wish we would have done that when we first reconciled in 07 along will full disclosure on his part. I'm sad that we wasted 6 years in false R.


Madhatters, M 31 yrs
FWW/BS 57-BS/FWH 56
Separated 5 mos in 07.His DDay,11/07.False R since 07. My DDay,7/5/13."Once you are real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.”
― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: United States
ascian
Member
Member # 40304
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Leafan,

Here's how I handled the situation with my fWW: I have full access to her accounts (at least those not restricted by work-required NDAs and the like). She, in turn, has full access to mine.

Yes, I was the betrayed spouse, but so what? I don't have anything to hide from her. I might not volunteer information (for example, she knows I'm on SI but not my handle here. Still, about two minutes digging on my e-mail would find that for her if she wanted to know, and I'm fine with that). When I have an attack of nerves and need to check her e-mail or chat logs, mainly I'm looking at names and for keywords. I'm not obsessively reading each IM or e-mail.

This involved a bit of work to set up. We're both technically savvy, and have presence on a lot of social media because of the nature of our jobs, so we use two-factor authentication on most sites that allow it. That means that when I need to check her e-mail I need to get a secondary password from an app on her phone (and vice versa if she wants to check mine). Again, I'm fine with that. It's the security of availability I need (similar to what you describe), not information-gathering for proof of an affair or so on.

So maybe that's an approach you could try. Say "Your recent mention that you're still emotionally invested in that guy's been triggering me like crazy this week. I really feel like I need to see your e-mail and chat logs, but I also feel it's only fair that I give you the same transparency I'm asking."

It might not work, but it's worth a shot.


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
vivere
Member
Member # 34465
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Honestly I feel that full access is overrated. If a WS wants to cheat, they will and who wants to be a 'guard' for the rest of their life?

Having said that though, as I see it, all you've done is ask for your WW to help in re establishing trust. If the act of making the accounts available to you helps to build trust, then that's what she should be doing.

By the same token if you thought having her read from the dictionary 3 times a week would help you to re establish trust, she should be willing to do it.

Even if whatever action you ask of her makes no sense to her, if it doesn't harm her in any way and you say it will help make you feel better why wouldn't she be willing to do it?

By doing what it is that you need she is saying I am willing to help you. I want to make myself safe for you, to make R possible.


You are responsible for your own happiness :)

Posts: 296 | Registered: Jan 2012
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Hello Leafan, you heard from me quite a bit yesterday on General where, like today you got some excellent guidance. I was going to refrain from posting bc again, I think you have received great advice but I will mention two things, one mentioned, the other not in the way I wish too.

1) No one is saying your wife should not have friends. She needs friends. But these need to be friends of the marriage. I used to call my bff and bad-mouth my H. By the time he got home, I didn't want to talk to him. He, meanwhile was talking to the AP. Both of us were lost.

2) You noted your wife is on SI. May I ask why? I mean....if she wants to help you as you noted the other day, then she would be taking action, showing remorse, and not objecting to your requests. She would be reading/getting this advice from the WS forum.

What * other * reason would someone have to be on SI other then to seek support, counsel and find the best possible way to repair and rebuild?

LA


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 1791 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I am going to challenge you one last time to look at this and your motivations. I suspect you aren't ready to hear this, but here goes.

Why do keep saying we've told you she cannot have friends? Why are you fixating on that? Nobody said that. What I personally said was it's inappropriate to vent about you and her marriage to her friends. Is that such a foreign concept? And certainly it is not ok to to use the need to do so as a defense of providing you the transparency and accountability you deserve. Why do you resist that? Is it because you know she will not comply?

I know it must be hard to hear 20 or so people telling you that your recovery may be false. It is scary. But we have all been there. You asked for our opinions based on our collective experiences and knowledge. We have seen it a thousand times if not more a wayward's excuses to not provide transparency. And it is never good, my friend.

After an affair things change. The rules change. If both partners don't do some major internal work, the recovery will fail. Why do you continue to allow her to dictate the terms of your recovery? I submit that it isn't healthy.

Reconciling isn't for wimps. We have all had to do some pretty tough things to get here. We understand. Nobody thinks ill of your wife. We are rooting for your success! Don't sell yourself short. Ensure your wife deserves you. Accept nothing less than extreme measures on her part.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 5851 | Registered: Jan 2011
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

There is a difference between not having friends and not having boundaries. Unfortunately people with poor boundaries have a hard time understanding that. That's my experience anyway, as someone who had terrible boundaries and still works on recognizing that and improving them. After dday, developing solid boundaries became a major focus for both of us, when previously, I didn't know what a boundary was nor did I care and it's pretty obvious my husband didn't either.

Good luck on this journey Leafsfan.

[This message edited by DixieD at 5:00 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1444 | Registered: Sep 2011
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Man this is a tough day !!! Wow.

2) You noted your wife is on SI. May I ask why? I mean....if she wants to help you as you noted the other day, then she would be taking action, showing remorse, and not objecting to your requests. She would be reading/getting this advice from the WS forum.

She is here as I am seeking advice, reading others posts. Maybe she is not as active as I have been from time to time. But she is here. Posting questions. Seeking advice. Unfortunately she feels like she gets attacked here. I know a lot of you are a 2x4 type. I respect that. I read every post, try to see where that person is coming from.

The whole "not having friends" came from someone or a few people saying that she should not have friends that are not friends of the M
Maybe I misinterpreted that, took it as she should not have friends of her own.

Anyways. Thanks for all your advice I do appreciated all of it. Even if I get defensive and don't agree.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 5:47 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Leaf, I was just perusing the WS forum. I often read this forum bc it is incredibly enlightening.

You wrote yesterday that your wife thinks that "she and her former AP could just be friends now". Maybe that did not work in the past but hey, after three years she believes it could work now by golly! Really? Really?

I wonder if she got their (WS forum) opinion on that little gem. Maybe she is getting whacked over there bc they sense she is not being totally honest with you and with them.

You don't have to like or agree with any of this. We will still be here tomorrow and take on another question. I am going out on a limb and - gently - say that you are still in the denial stage of this process (Co-Dependant No More by Melody Beattie). Read as much as you can. Empower yourself with knowledge on this subject.

I wish you well, Leafan. I really do.

[This message edited by LA44 at 5:48 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 1791 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
ascian
Member
Member # 40304
Default  Posted: 5:53 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

As far as I have always understood, "friends of the M" means that they're people that will support your marriage. As opposed to "friends of the A" who are people who knew about one partner's affair and either implicitly or explicitly supported it.


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 6:18 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

As far as I have always understood, "friends of the M" means that they're people that will support your marriage. As opposed to "friends of the A" who are people who knew about one partner's affair and either implicitly or explicitly supported it.


Thank you for pointing that out. I was taking it totally the wrong way. I was thinking friends of the M would mean our mutual friends


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
bufffalo
Member
Member # 21854
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

JMO....

The reason for access to her accounts is for verification of NC with AP....she needs to be transparent....her unwillingness for that "openness" is a HUGE RED flag, bro...transparency in my case was a NON NEGOCIABLE requirement for R to happen.

I verified everything....dude...I mean EVERYTHING...

Everytime I looked at cell phone, cell phone bills, emails, GPS, call logs..etc..and FOUND NOTHING.....it allowed the trust level go up a bit. The wall of trust gets rebuilt one brick at a time - over time...your wife's lack of "agreeing to transparency" is not good....im sorry.


I told my FWW that transparency would happen - or R was off the table....it cannot happen with secrets...especially after her A..

Good luck...

Bufffalo


DDay 9/25/2008
R started 11/10/08
BH-me

Posts: 5778 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Texas
JustWow
Member
Member # 19636
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

For me, full transparency was a boundary issue. One I was willing to enforce.

Bigger queston is not what WE all think about full transparency, but rather, what is the consequence that YOU have decided will result when she doesn't comply?

Don't negotiate with terrorists


BW - Reconciling

edited for typos (I always have to!)


Posts: 3551 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Midwest
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

That's a good question right there. ^^^^

This has been one of the harder days so far. I'm completely spinning out right now. Hopefully the wife and I can sit down tonight after the kids are in bed and talk this through. But I really don't know how she will be able to convince me that she hasn't deleted or cleaned shit up.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
SuperDuperWonderboy
Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

We (as husbands) want to believe so badly. We want her to convince us. It just sucks whe the truth of the matter is parked right in front of our faces.

Just be aware, when you have your conversation, she has read everything that has been said to you. She will use it against you, she will talk about how bad this site is and how we all want you to fail. Don't buy that crap. I have been here for 2 years. Fighting and being supported by the members on here. Everyone wants your marriage to succeed. IMO, The only person on these boards who isn't supporting your marriage right now....is your wife.

[This message edited by SuperDuperWonderboy at 6:52 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 6:58 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

My biggest problem is handling my anger. I often loose my shit and say stupid things. I honestly understand her hesitation to open up. But the reason we are here is because she willingly came clean. I never caught her. Even this latest thing she came to me and opened up.

But it is what it is. I can't change it. Just hope we can have a civil chat. Without my shit being lost. Lol


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 8:25 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

I'm pressed for time, alas, so I haven't read the whole thread, but ...

Oops, I really need to read this whole thread before commenting.

Just remember that healing is one thing. Only you can heal you, and you can heal even if she's still in her A, or not transparent, or dishonest.... Only your W can heal herself.

R is quite another matter. That takes both of you, and the WS must be remorseful - transparent, honest, NC, and a whole lot more, but the BS has responsibilities, too.

[This message edited by sisoon at 8:32 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)]


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

Posts: 8892 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
AML04
Member
Member # 39682
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

Leafsfan-I just read through all 4 pages and don't have much to add.

I did want to say something about your last comment. I have never been a person who loses their temper but my rage at the injustice of this all simmers beneath the surface at all times. It comes out when I least expect it and takes a lot of control not to "lose it" on my WH. I think both of you need to learn how to communicate better (my WH and I do too). The posts about emotional intimacy really hit home to me. Anything I say to my friends, I should be able to say to my WH.

I wish you all the best.


Me-BS Him-WH DS 5/12
T-13 M-9
DDay 5/26/13, TT through ???
2.5 yr EA w/co-worker, PA 12/12 to 4/13.
Hopeful for R

Posts: 647 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: MA
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:59 PM, November 27th (Wednesday)

It's a huge betrayal and injustice. If you're not seriously pissed off, something is wrong. Allow yourself to be pissed, and to express your anger. There are consequences to really bad behavior, and this is one of them.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1024 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Bobbi_sue
Member
Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 7:07 AM, November 28th (Thursday)


There is no privacy in my marriage. What would be the purpose?
I question other's need to have it. Why?

Well, I'm a BS and I appreciate having some privacy. We've been married for 18 years and are closer than ever. But if I really lost all my privacy, I would be extremely unhappy. By this, I mean that not only would he have access to everything I read or write or say to anyone, but he would also act on that and actually read what I write to others, on a regular basis. It would mean he would be reading what I'm writing right now. He doesn't even know I post on SI and I consider it none of his business. People can say what they want but I don't cheat on my H and I appreciate some privacy, and did nothing that should mean I should give it up.

I will never agree that I owe him the same transparency that he owes me.

But not to get too far off the point, I think that a WS who is unwilling to do whatever it takes, including give up privacy, is usually not all that remorseful. And remorse is the one thing above all else IMO, or at least for me, that is the key ingredient for R.

[This message edited by Bobbi_sue at 7:11 AM, November 28th (Thursday)]


Posts: 5575 | Registered: Apr 2006
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, November 28th (Thursday)

as a WS it just makes me feel better that my life is an open book.
No privacy issues at all... I know people are different but after an affair, all bets are off - there will be lots of things that are uncomfortable for the WS AND the BS.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3627 | Registered: Dec 2010
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, November 28th (Thursday)

I guess recovery is different for each of us. I think it's time I accept my failures as a husband. Time I realize that since the A.... Fuck even during and before the A... The majority if problems start with my lack of communication.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
standingonmarble
Member
Member # 31217
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, November 28th (Thursday)

Too much to read but I can say that the path to healing did not appear until he gave up and became totally transparent. When he gave up the need to hide, he became more open to healing our marriage.

It was/is a way to prove trustability, each time you see they are behaving, its another step closer to unity. Each time you see they are keeping their word, its another step. As they earn their way back, the need to snoop lessens. It takes time and consistency on their part but if reconciliation is what they truly want, they will do anything to get it.


At one time he was a man standing on marbles. Now I am a woman standing on marble.....

We are done fighting with each other and decide to fight FOR each other.


Posts: 725 | Registered: Feb 2011
Heartbroken2013
Member
Member # 39722
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, November 28th (Thursday)

I don't understand why she still has access to her accounts!

I took my WH laptop away from him, and deleted his accounts myself. he no longer has access to the internet, and if he needs mine, he will only go on it when I am at home.

She is hiding something!

Otherwise she would hand over no problem!


Me 45
WH 45
4 kids aged 3 - 25 (2 x adopted in 2013)
Together 15 years
Married 8 years
WH had online cybersex with various sluts!
DD = Nov 23rd 12
In 'R' and getting to a place we never been before

Posts: 123 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: UK
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, November 28th (Thursday)

Time I realize that since the A.... Fuck even during and before the A... The majority if problems start with my lack of communication.

And there are PLENTY of ways for your WW to respond to that problem that do NOT involve betraying you, including MC, reading books so that she might be able to understand better, start a new activity/hobby together with you, tell you that she can't continue in your M the way that it is and (together) get help to change/improve it or she wants S/D, .....

If you are out of money, do you go rob a bank? No, you seek another, HEALTHIER solution to the problem (cut expenses, take another job, sell things, borrow/take out a loan, etc).

Your lack of communication DID NOT CAUSE HER A.

If that's something you would like to fix in you, then by all means do so. It's a good relationship skill to have and perhaps ALL of your relationships will improve (not just your M). But don't accept any - ANY - responsibility for her decision to cheat. That's nothing to do with you, or even your M (you were in the same M and didn't cheat, right??), it's in her UNHEALTHY RESPONSE to her dissatisfaction.

And yeah, she should be transparent. But you knew that already.

Sending you strength.

((((Leaf))))


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 24 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 29
Dday: Dec 2008
re-separated (in-house), for good (??) <-- should really remove these, shouldn't I...

Posts: 2502 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
brkn_heartd
Member
Member # 30396
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, November 28th (Thursday)

Open access is needed. If she has the "privacy" issues journaling etc. She can use another medium if needed. I have all of the passwords and accounts my FWH has. I caught him with his secret email account because the history log showed which account he had signed in. I have checked periodically since then...but there is nothing. As Baxter BFF said earlier, my FWH isn't tied to his computer/phone like he was during his A. I still get triggery at times and need to check.

If she wants to R, she will step up to the plate. Obviously if it has been 3 years, something has occurred to make you request now. She can step up to the plate or call the game over. She made the decision to have the A...this is the consequences. My FWH has access to my computer and phone. While I have done nothing, I do believe that we both have a right to open access. I don't like when he is in my computer, but I know I have nothing to hide. But I do believe it is healthier for the marriage for us both to be on equal terms.

Stand firm and make your decisions. Take care of yourself.


Me-50 BS
Him 57-WS
Married 30 yrs, together 33
Affair Aug-Dec 09
official D-12/14/09
broke NC 1/31/10
second D 3/19/10

Posts: 1439 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Northwesten US
Leafan1976
New Member
Member # 36338
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, November 28th (Thursday)

Wanted to thank you all again. It is helpful to have the advice. Even if I choose not to take it all. We sat down.... After a blow up by yours truly.... And have come to an understanding. I will be given access as requested. I will allow her a place to write in her phone. We both only use our phones these days. So I understand that she does a lot of her writing in a note pad app. To be honest. So do I.

I came to a big realization. Our entire M I have been such a hard person for her to come to, and talk. Many times throwing her betrayal in her face to avoid the other issue at hand. I need to learn how to communicate. Something I have never been good at. I honestly get tight chested and shaky when faced with a confrontational situation. This is a HUGE hurdle we need to jump.


Me- 37 BS Her - 32 WW (LTA)
Married 13 years
OM was an issue the whole time. An ex.
LTA went on through the majority of our M
Working on R
2 kids one 2 1/2 boy one 12 yo daughter

Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2012
RidingHealingRd
Member
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 12:33 AM, November 30th (Saturday)

Is she serious? I am sorry but she is taking you for a fool by expecting you to allow her to hide anything!
Her prize for being a dishonest spouse = loss of any and all privacy.
Tell her to hand over access to all her accounts or pack her crap and get out.
A remorseful WS would never deny you access. She is NOT remorseful. She is selfish, calculating, insensitive, and mean. Who needs that?


ME: 53 BS
HIM: 60 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 3.5 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 1968 | Registered: Nov 2011
Smokehouse
Member
Member # 40203
Default  Posted: 2:52 AM, November 30th (Saturday)

No matter what the length of time you should have full access to any and all accounts, passwords and social media.

Neither you nor your wife dealt with it properly 3 years ago or you would be much further along. Even if I hadn't cheated, was the perfect husband, showed my wife on a daily basis that I loved her more than life itself and she wanted my passwords and full access, she would have it.

A marriage is built on love and trust. Trust that the person you are married to would not hurt you, has you in mind in everything they do and outwardly it shows they are married and committed.


Posts: 147 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Ohio
MOTG
Member
Member # 35902
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, November 30th (Saturday)

I think open access is required. I started by writing down all MY accounts usernames and passwords and gave it to him. I told him he could look at anything at any time. I asked him to do the same. I have all the PW's now and if he starts a new account he always uses one of 3 PW's so even if he forgets to tell me about a new account I can easily figure it out. If he failed to do that and I tried to look at an account we'd be having a conversation. Honesty has been a big issue for me and I need the ability to confirm for my self.


Me: 33 mother to 2 girls
Him: 1 PA and 2 EA
Us: together 9 years married 5 years. Trying to work through this.
I refuse to commemorate D-Day

Posts: 75 | Registered: Jun 2012
Topic Posts: 88