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Wayward Side
User Topic: for this SI veteran, the wayward forum is tough lately
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Stop  Posted: 6:24 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

*this isn't directed at anybody specifically and I am posting as a member*

This wayward forum is a very unique place, IMO. We were given a place to heal, in a forum with those who have been cheated on. We are WSs and some of us OPs, or both.

Going NC and maintaining it, telling the BS or not, having anger hurled at us from the BS, being permitted our own anger and resentment, our 'why's...these are all common themes in this forum.

Some talk about 'drinking the kool aid', that there are certain views that come up consistently. We have been called a cult because we have our 'mantras', our 'way of doing things'. The reason why that's so is because that shit works!

When I came here my way of thinking as a WS, as a person, was very, very different from how it is now. I am different, I got this, none of these people really know me, etc.

The reason I'm still here, still in my marriage, why I'm healthy, is because at some point something just clicked. I realized that the ones before me knew what the hell they were talking about! The support group formula works so beautifully because you're sharing with others who have BEEN IN THE SAME SITUATION THAT YOU ARE IN RIGHT NOW! They knew because they had all BTDT.

I'm writing this post *as a member* to ask us all, especially the newbies, to remember to keep an open mind. To realize that those giving you advice are doing so from experience. And if it's something that is difficult to hear, consider that if it's hard for you to hear it's probably something you need to look at more closely.

If you're new, keep posting and keep listening with an open mind. If you truly want to heal and grow, this is the place to do it.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:27 AM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38209 | Registered: Sep 2007
Trying33
Member
Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

I totally get what you're saying AN and I agree with you. This site has helped me remain NC and I owe a lot to the people on SI. Every single time I felt like breaking NC I came and posted here instead. The 2x4's have been helpful, however hard to hear. The people on this site encouraged and facilitated my finally deleting my email account which I never could have done on my own.

BUT, here's the thing, the reason I first came to a forum, having never done anything like this before, is because I wanted just a tiny little bit of reassurance that I am not a total fuck up in life and that I've made a mistake that can now be rectified (in whatever vain). I just needed some gentle people being there to listen, telling me they know what I'm going through. I already knew I had wronged my H and that's why I came to a surviving infidelity website because I wanted to survive it and understand what the hell went wrong in my life.

When I first came here, I said I wanted to sit around in my pj's eating icecream mourning my EMA. I realise now how absurd that sounds (and how selfish) and quite rightly, someone told me at that time I cannot mourn such an illicit relationship. I do not have that right. That was helpful as it made me think. But had someone written something aggressive maybe I wouldn't have come back.

All in all, this site has been a God send to me. thank-you everyone.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
Trying33
Member
Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 6:38 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

OK.. I've just read some threads and see the place your post is coming from..

Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 6:39 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

I hear you. And that's why we have the stop sign (and I used it today because I want this to be a safe thread for the WSs).

Sometimes the veterans have to check themselves and remember where they were early in the process, too.
It's easy for me to say, 'Maintain NC!' and then I have to remember that when my EA ended I mourned for 8 months and what a struggle it was for me. My BH didn't know. It was only when he discovered my PAs afterwards did I confess about the EA.

But I also remember that when I thought I could just call OM(PA) to say hi after I told him it was over, he asked me to meet him again even though now we were 'just friends', and how it got me right back to that complicated, ugly place. So, these are the types of things that we share to help each other---our experiences, what works, what doesn't.

Everyone's journey is very, very messy, for sure.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38209 | Registered: Sep 2007
Alyssamd24
Member
Member # 39005
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

I agree with this, and also agree that there have been a few posts on this forum recently that have turned ugly. I have seen the accusations about this forum being a cult and think that's ridiculous.

Like Trying said, when I first came and posted there were a few comments I received that almost made me tuck my tail between my legs and go running in the opposite direction. I also got defensive in a few and initially tried to "fight back" until I realized that what was said to me was absolutely correct...and like authentic said, the reason I took offense to it is because it was something I needed to look at more closely.

The veterans in this forum are brutally honest....but for the most part stress that the reason they are that way is cuz they have BTDT. And although some comments have made me feel like a shitty person I have never felt that anyone was directly attacking me....meaning no one has ever called me names or anything like that.

To the newbies.....keep posting, and like authentic said, keep an open mind. None of the WS are going to judge you, cuz we have all done the same things as you, if not worse. If you feel like you are being attacked then bring it up either in a post or PM. And remember the WS on this forum are here to help!!


"I need to be redeemed to the one I've sinned against because he's all I ever knew of love"

Posts: 880 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Massachusetts
Mrs Panda
Member
Member # 27303
Default  Posted: 7:41 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

I can be pretty rigid in general about my views about right or wrong. When I came here, I knew I was in the wrong, but was still trying to convince myself I was right.

I also believe there is a right and wrong way of fixing things.

So I listened. And the people here who had recovered and reconciled (what I wanted) had done things a certain way. Of course, there are variations. But the success stories on here that I saw, the people that posted to me, had gone all in.

For example, taking 100% responsibility for the As? That was a foreign concept to me. After all, Womens' magazines would tell you it's probably because your husband isn't paying you enough attention.

It was very uncomfortable to sit and read things that told me I was doing bad shit. I have almost never been reprimanded, even as a kid, as I was viewed as a goody goody or golden child who always follows the rules. Except when I had this secret life in which I broke all the rules.

So being told I was in deep trouble by people here hurt. The posts that really stung for me were the most true (ahem, thanks wincings sparkle ). So I had a choice...fight or flight. This was the only place I had seen where this stuff was actually talked about. I sensed there was a lot of knowledge here, more than my actual IC had ever offered.

Thanks, Grand Poobah. Oops, I mean AN.

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 7:44 AM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Me-41 FWW Him-45BH
M 13years. Reconciled.
DDay#1 Nov 2008 (OM2)
DDay#2 Aug 2009 (Confessed to OM 2001)
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." -Kurt Vonnegut

Posts: 1992 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The SouthEast
Alyssamd24
Member
Member # 39005
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

The funny thing for me, is that the people who were harshest on me were also the people I had the most respect for....I'm not sure why??!! And even though their words would make me cringe the most, they are also the ones I consider the most.

Special shout out to authentic now, just desserts, aubrie, unagie, and Mrs panda....and I know I'm forgetting others.

[This message edited by Alyssamd24 at 7:57 AM, January 12th (Sunday)]


"I need to be redeemed to the one I've sinned against because he's all I ever knew of love"

Posts: 880 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Massachusetts
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

I am new and very thankful for the forum. I feel like I can post and get replies from people who understand where I am coming from. I also like the tough stance and honest, brutal advice that I can read here. Here is the second half of my post...

What I don't particularly find useful is lumping all of us into a singular bucket. Our affairs are all different. We are all different. Our situations are different.

There is some great universal advice and then some iffy advice that does come across like a cult.

This idea (and this is a very over the top representation) that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

As I said, an over the top representation, but it sometimes feels like that here.

We are not solely our affairs. They are mistakes we have made and that we are trying to move forward from. How we deal with the going forward is going to be different depending on the person. Not everybody is going to be on the same timetable or healing schedule. I think that is important to remember.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

smez, when we tell a WS to confess, we do so because we've seen so many BS say that they wish their WS had just told them, instead of having to go through all the uncertainty and second guessing themselves.

As for the FWSs telling it like it is, that's what makes this forum so great. The saying "You can't bullshit a bullshitter" certainly holds true here. The FWS aren't afraid to call one another out on stuff even if the member is years out. This happened to me just a couple years ago. I was thisclose to sliding down the slope again, posted here and was hit with 2x4s. As I should have been.

And smez, you're right. We are not solely our affairs. And this is a place we can come to see that. A place where we can learn to heal ourselves and help our BS heal. Another member once said (a WS, can't remember who. Sorry...) that this is tough love at it's finest.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5893 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
HUFI-PUFI
Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

This idea (and this is a very over the top representation) that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

We're not being told to confess to our spouses ONLY so they have all of the information to make informed choices about their marriage. We're not being encouraged to confess to our spouses ONLY to give R a chance. Before we fix our spouses and our marriages, first and foremost, we have to heal ourselves and the first step on that journey is self-honesty.

The reason to confess is to let yourself get to a point of authenticity. Itís to let you reset your moral compass. Itís the first step in moving to self-healing. Self-healing is a multi-layered process but you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. And IMHO, it starts with being honest with yourself and you can't say that you are an honest, moral upright person when you hide a secret of this magnitude to yourself. That's like making a promise with your fingers crossed.

We get that we're all individual and we get that our life journeys are all unique but even with that said, there are some constants in this whole process. Itís not a matter of whether you had a LTA versus a bunch of ONS. It doesn't matter if the AP was an ex-lover or your SIL. Those are just details.

The crux of the matter is that we all made a promise to be in a monogamous relationship and then broke that promise. We all lied about our actions. We all found some need within us that we tried to fill with very questionable actions. I can't always relate to your specific details but for sure, I can relate to the common thread of betrayal, lying, validation etc. That's what most of us try to do in our posts. We're trying to illustrate that betrayal is betrayal at one level or the other. We're using our own life experiences and life stores to show you the right way, the better way based on our mistakes in our own journeys. Remember, BTDT?

Weíre not trained professional (although, I think we have a few of them here too )and so our suggestions, advice and replies to posts come from the heart first and foremost. Itís been said that members have to take what works and leave the rest but that statement doesn't stand on its own. It works in conjunction with the saying of "if it hurts, it should be looked at".

Many of us have found that itís our actions post affair that created the biggest mess in our marriages and in the spirit of BTDT, we offer our advice in hindsight to the newbies. Yes, sometimes it doesn't seem to fit but I honestly believe that if you dig deep enough, you will eventually come to a point where you'll say ďif only I knew that, if only someone had told me that before."

Well, those of us who are trying to pay it forward are trying to be that someone to you. We're trying to give you some help from our own hard won battles in this forum. Many, if not most of us, were in denial when we came here. Most of us had issues with NC. Just look at the post titles. Time after time, itís the same question that comes up. Should I confess? How do I get the AP out of my head? Why did I have an affair? The reason that they are standard questions is because they are root issues that apply to most every wayward here. Weíre not just mouthing trite words for the hell of it all. We're trying to pay it forward as other members did the same for us.

And we hope one day, after a long journey of introspective soul gazing, that you will join us here too, ready to give of your experience to someone new.

HUFI

Wisdom from Gamine - Make a decision and discipline yourself not to waver. Don't be someone who stands for nothing. Stand for what you decide and back it with the full force of your character and conviction. DECIDE. CHOOSE. COMMIT. PERIOD.


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3280 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

Thanks for the responses. I take from this forum what is helpful and leave some of the mantra behind.

NO ONE should listen to anyone on this site that tells them to ignore an IC/MC advice. There is no one size fits all solution.

Everyone here is going to have to do some hard work to fix themselves. Because at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual. I am broken and I will focus on fixing me. Why each of us is broken is a personal and complicated issue and the fixing is going to vary for each person.

I would say that threads regularly get derailed by this confession issue, especially when there is no stop sign.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
kmom2662
Member
Member # 41494
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

Smez--
As terrible as I feel about the affair, some of what you said definitely resonates with me. I made some really terrible choices, and will regret them forever, but I still have quite a bit of anger and resentment about the state of the M for the 8 or 10 years preceding the A. I took, and broke, the vow of fidelity I took, but we also took vows to love and cherish and commit to each other, and there wasn't a lot of that going on, in either direction. I just wish I would have found a better way to deal with it.

But, it's an ongoing process and I'm fairly new too. I already think I'm looking at some things differently than I was at the beginning. All I know is that SI (and especially AN) was my only support during one of the worst days of my existence, and that I am thankful for.


Me-- WW, 49
Him-- BH, 53 (bobf)
Married 22 years
OEA, chat/email with multiple people over an 8 week period, 8/2013-10/4/2013
D-day 10/4/13
Working on reconciliation

Posts: 69 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: United states
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

kmom2662-

In one way, SI has helped me appreciate my husband more. There has been no verbal over the line abuse in either direction. This is one of the things that bothers me on here. There are some BS that are clearly abusing the WS using the A as an excuse. That doesn't mean we don't/didn't yell at each other over the A. He was very, very angry. However, to his credit, he didn't sit in MC and say "I have no idea how this happened". We both recognize that our marriage wasn't working and frankly both dealing with it in terrible ways.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, January 12th (Sunday)


NO ONE should listen to anyone on this site that tells them to ignore an IC/MC advice. There is no one size fits all solution.

Even when the IC/MC is full of...um...doo-doo? Amazingly, lots of them have little or no infidelity experience, just like many of them have no alcoholism/addiction experience, and can actually, amazingly, dispense really poor advice on these topics. We see it here...ALOT. Poor clinical environment professional advice. That said, I have a great IC. And had my first IC a long time ago.

It's not the source that matters. It's the support, experience, and advice that matters. And the person receiving it...well, it's a free country. Take what you need, skip the rest.

And if you feel a sting here, then someone is on the right track.

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 10:57 AM, January 12th (Sunday)]


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

smez, if anyone is told to ignore what an MC/IC says it's because that MC/IC has essentially said that it was the BS responsibility to keep the WS faithful. I've seen a number of threads where the BS posted that their MC was so focused on *their* faults that the WS behavior was rugswept. In those cases, yes, I would tell the WS to ignore what the MC/IC said. A WS in the fog has zero problems justifying their actions; they don't need anyone, especially a professional, helping them do that.

Yes, all our journeys are individul but they share so much in common that it seems they're scripted. The collected wisdom here has shown what works, what doesn't and what might. That's why we say take what you need and leave the rest. But there have been those WS who refused to listen to the hard-won truths of those who have BTDT and insist on doing things their way.

As for the confession issue, there have been many a WS who have said they wish they had. As HUFI said, you can't start living an authenic life if you're carrying such a dark secret. It hurts you, your BS, your kids, everyone.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5893 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

Regarding us not solely being our affairs: that is one of the great things about the Wayward forum. It gives us the chance to feel like we are not the only people to have been unfaithful and we are still treated like a human being. I have received some really great support here when I have been in pain or just needed help figuring some things out. SI gets a lot of credit in my mind for getting on the path to being a decent person again.

Things do get rough around here when we waver in trying to be honest. People here don't respond well to indulging in refusal to own your problems. Yes, I've been on the receiving end of this a couple of times.

I'm going to take some guesses on why this is. This is not expert analysis, just speculation from a lay-person. Consider it an invitation to converse.

The veterans have seen variations on this over and over. Even in my own short time here, about six months, it is easy to see patterns in the stories. One of the sad, pathetic parts of this is that almost all of the stories fall into a handful of themes with minor variations. The behaviors of the people in this forum could be easily categorized if we chose to. The new people are full of pain and canít see much of anything at all and the veterans can so easily see through a lot of the mistakes that get made here that they want to cut to the chase and tell the new people "No! Don't do it this way, you are messing it up!" When the new person is resistant, that can easily turn to frustration and more heated commentary.

Also, we have a group identity here of people who are trying to own our infidelity and the things that led to it. When someone comes into this space, tries to share that identity and then goes against the group norms, people will respond strongly. That is because when they share part of our identity and then behave poorly, that represents us. People here have a lot invested in trying to become former Waywards and when something happens to lumps us into a category that we are trying to leave, we lash out.

There are times when we could stand to do a little more work integrating a new, foggy Wayward into the SI culture so they know what to do before we jump all over them. I don't see the 'training' period as ever being permitted to be very long, though. Mostly, because this is a very painful thing for everyone involved and our ability to be patient is very finite because of all of our own damage. Infidelity is a very repugnant thing and the members of this forum are very sensitized to it.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 253 | Registered: Aug 2013
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

I have to respond to the IC/MC advice topic. Please remember that you are getting one side of the story. Just like when I post, I'm sure I have biases. You will never know the entire story from anonymous posters on the internet.

You don't know if a person confessing is going home to an abuse spouse and will be beaten. You certainly shouldn't be encouraging verbal abuse regardless of what the WW spouse did and children should NEVER be used as a fighting tool.

All other advice spot on. But the above are no go's in my book and get in the way of some really good, meaningful advice.

Edited...And I should add that the A was 100% on me. It was my choice, my decision. The reasons that lead up to the affair were 99% mine.

[This message edited by smez at 11:05 AM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 11:30 AM, January 12th (Sunday)

There have been a few times where the WS has posted that their BS is using the A as a reason to punish them, all while refusing MC/IC. In those cases, I have yet to see them told to "suck it up. You deserve it." No, they're told that a BS anger is justified but *any* abuse is not. They're told that if their BS is abusing them (verbally, emotionally or physically) then they have the right to pull the plug.

Yes, the posting WS may be a troll but they're usually spotted pretty quickly. The BS meters are pretty much foolproof, both on the betrayed side and the wayward side.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5893 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 12:40 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

This site has been a god send to me, The2x4 I've received have made me look deeper and realize my own BS rationality.

I for one did not confess, I wish I had found this site before I was caught.

The first affair I did not confess, which required me to bury it deep, very deep, problem with that I never did get honest and never did I learn because I didn't have to face the truth. I stayed false. I lied!!! My life was a lie.

Now not saying that won't happen to those that don't confess they may make it. For me I didn't I took myself and drove myself head first into a brick wall. And it was inevitable I think I am not sure. I wasn't looking wasn't even thinking about it. But you do put off vibes I believe and our family friend saw the opening and I didn't stop.

So yes , I do think sometimes on the form we come on strong, I know I have when I see something familiar. And yet the truth hurts and really if it freaks you or pisses you off, my guess you better pay attention. Cause there is something in you that hears and feels the truth.

I can't imagine all you FWS, having to watch us newbies and hear us. I know I am new and want to cross through the cyber world and grab the person and say STOP, you have no idea what you have done!!! to you and your family.

Thank you again for this place to converse. Thanks for the support and the 2x4 .


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 437 | Registered: Apr 2013
DanteJace
New Member
Member # 42017
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Smez mentions:
What I don't particularly find useful is lumping all of us into a singular bucket. Our affairs are all different. We are all different. Our situations are different.

Excellent. I agree.
This idea ... that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

Ditto.

I'd like to suggest that those offering advice -- if they really want to be helpful -- consider phrasing like "have you considered" or "I, personally, found that...". I think there needs to be a little bit more of a tone of humility... even from betrayed spouses who'd really like to get all scoldy on any wayward spouse they can.

Of course, I can't stop those who just want to state everything as black and white, and all waywards are ipso facto evil. However, I won't find much useful in what they are saying.

We are not solely our affairs. They are mistakes we have made and that we are trying to move forward from. How we deal with the going forward is going to be different depending on the person. Not everybody is going to be on the same timetable or healing schedule. I think that is important to remember.

I love this: We are not solely our affairs. I'll probably have more to say on this at a later time.



.

Posts: 49 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: northeast US
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

This idea (and this is a very over the top representation) that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

I don't understand this. How can advice to be honest not be helpful? To me this is the heart of SI Wayward forum. If you're not willing to be honest, then why be here?

I mean you phrased it as mockingly as you could in the quote above to make it seem like ridiculous and abusive advice, but take away the mocking tone and waht you're saying is that the advice given here to tell your spouse you had an affair is "not particularly helpful." And I really don't understand how advice to fix your marriage that does not include the basic "be honest" can ever be helpful.

Yeah, take what advice you want and leave the rest, but if the part you're leaving is "honesty" then I don't think you're really getting anything out of any of the other advice. To me that's like going to a doctor and asking how to treat your diabetes and saying you'll do anything except refrain from sugar or take medication in order to stay healthy.

As a FWS myself, I can't imagine finding help in a place that did not encourage a strong, honest marriage. I'm glad that when I came here for help there were people here who weren't afraid to tell me to be honest with my husband lest they scare me away.

You notice the new posters will enthusiastically quote the sentences that tell them they do not necessarily have to be honest or confess, and that their affair and marital situation might indeed be different from others here, and therefore the advice about honesty doesn't apply to them. Because at heart that's what a foggy WS wants to read. They come for advice but hope for a pass.

There has to be a strong counterpoint to that. The counterpoint of what we ourselves would like someone to be telling our own spouse if they were dealing with a horribly painful subject and using that advice to direct their actions in our marriage.


Posts: 3197 | Registered: Mar 2005
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

What I don't particularly find useful is lumping all of us into a singular bucket. Our affairs are all different. We are all different. Our situations are different.

You are correct...we all are different and all situations are different, however, all affairs are wrong.

I see that Dante has the opinion that we shouldn't lump all WS's into one category and that SI doesn't really offer a different perspective.

In honesty...SI offers a much different perspective for different situations, however, no one here is going to say that holding onto lies and being secretive is ok.

Lying is wrong. Affairs are wrong. In my opinion that part is very black and white.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198450 | Registered: May 2002
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Thread effing jack.

This idea ... that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.

Dante: Has your BS done this "saintly daily hourly" thing to you? Or are you suggesting all BS's fit into this singular, standardized "BS behavior" bucket?

I'd like to suggest that those offering advice -- if they really want to be helpful -- consider phrasing like "have you considered" or "I, personally, found that...". I think there needs to be a little bit more of a tone of humility... even from betrayed spouses who'd really like to get all scoldy on any wayward spouse they can.

I'd like to suggest, or rather ask have you considered, I mean, I personally found that, wait, if I may humbly suggest, heck, let me be black and white, here's my thought - the one person who might benefit from a tone of humility is...YOU.

JD

P.S. I'm still curious - does your wife know you cheated on her?

P.P.S I'm a recovering epically fogged, epically delusioned, mind bogglingly grandiose, selfish, clueless, in lurrrvvv and NC breaking douchebag. And I personally think, if I may humbly suggest, that we can become very good friends. I'm lumping you in a special singular bucket of "Total Prick Wandering Husbands Who Needed Extra Help to Get Fucking Real"...with ME and quite a few other really special WH's!

P.P.P.S. Please read Maia's recovery guide ASAP. Wait, I'd like to suggest you please read Maia's recovery guide soon.

Good luck, dude. Like me, you need it. Bad...

End Thread Effing Jack

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 2:40 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

This idea ... that we should all go confess and throw ourselves at the mercy of our spouses so that they can either D us or remind us on a daily/hourly basis how utterly terrible people we are and how saintly they are for even being in the same room as us, is not particularly helpful.
I confessed. And my husband never did that. He never beat me up over the A. Was he hurt? Yes. Did he ask questions? Yes. Did I have to face consequences? Yes. He never held himself in higher regard to myself. He never told me I was trash. He never threw me in the gutter. Did your BS? Does she even know you cheated?

I'd like to suggest that those offering advice -- if they really want to be helpful -- consider phrasing like "have you considered" or "I, personally, found that...". I think there needs to be a little bit more of a tone of humility... even from betrayed spouses who'd really like to get all scoldy on any wayward spouse they can.
It's interesting. The only time people have a problem with presentation is when they're hearing something they don't want to hear in the first place. At that point, it wouldn't matter if it was thrown at them on the end of a poison dipped spear, or a fluffy marshmallow, if that person doesn't like what's being said, they're going to find fault with it. Period.

I'm not going to sensor everything I say just to make people feel better. I'm not a people pleaser. I speak black and white. Don't have a problem with it, and it serves me well. Don't really care if people like me or not. My days of worrying about if people like me or not are over. Validation and wanting people to like me are part of why I cheated in the first place. If I'm talking, it's obviously my opinion. I'm not going to disclaimer everything I say, "In my humble opinion, for what it's worth, take what you want, leave the rest, in my experience, your mileage may vary..." That's just insanity and monotonous after about 100 times. If you have a problem with how people talk to you, examine yourself. Why are you testy, defensive, wanting people to say what you want them to say it? Why don't you stop and think about what they're saying. Try to see the other side that's being offered.

I have gotten advice from countless "scoldy" betrayed spouses. My best friends are BSs. Imagine that. A betrayed person is BFF with an ex-cheater. They have never held my past over my head, they have never beaten me with rods. They have however, shined the flashlight of truth into the cobwebbed corners of my soul. Just as many FWS here have. If you don't want to hear form BSs, post with a stop sign. It's what they're there for.

Every WS comes to SI thinking their "love" with the AP is super special. That they have found the mythical unicorn. That they are different. Cheating is never, ever, ever the answer to any problem. If you are married, you are supposed to be committed to the individual you made your vows to. If you cheat, it's not your BSs fault. They didn't hold a gun to your head and tell you to make that chick your new fleshlight pocket pussy. They didn't tell you to pick up that stud on the corner and make him your new living, breathing dildo. Your choice to cheat is strictly on you. Because you didn't water the grass on your own dang side of the fence. Because you didn't have enough self-respect to find healthier ways to cope with whatever crap happened in your life. The problem with the marriage is you and your choices.

Every new WS comes on here saying there is nothing wrong with them, that their BS is a jerk, that they're in a sexless marriage, that their BS doesn't do enough around the house, that they are so mean and abusive, that they put too many cheeses in the lasagna, that they always run the car out of gas. I mean it's always something. It's always the BSs fault. It is very, very rare for a WS to show up here and actually own and take responsibility for their crap actions, and face the consequences for their affairs. Very rare.

Many WS get mad and throw fits when the more experienced and healed WS advise them. Because dang it, you just don't know me! I'm special! The AP really loved me! You have no idea what my life is! The WS do know you, they also know you aren't the special unicorn, that your AP may have "loved" you, (about like an addict loves meth. Doesn't mean it's healthy.) And the FWS here do know a thing or two about healing.

FloridaRedMan, Clarissa, heartbroken0903, HUFI, AuthenticNow, Fallen, (forgive me if I've left anyone out) these people have been here for years. They know a thing or two about infidelity. They know. Call me crazy, but I would think that someone would stop and listen to the veterans. They're healed/healing, they're healthy, and they're not stupid.

-Aubrie

Just my humble opinion, for what it's worth, take what you want, leave the rest, your mileage may vary.

[This message edited by Aubrie at 3:17 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne


Posts: 6335 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
astudentoflife
Member
Member # 25821
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

I have posted to a few threads on here this week that make this thread important to me.

I think we all must always look at ourselves and while no one is perfect (least of all me ) I think we can get into difficulties on this board when dealing with some issues.

After a lot of soul searching and finding out my "why" I have realized that the why was because I was abusive to my wife. The ONS with a hooker and then my text to her telling her all about it was not about love, la la thinking it was meant to hurt her. Yes, I had to be transparent, open and I also had to change my abusive behavior in order to R. I will address the reasons for saying the previous in the paragraph that follows the next one. I have two issues really that concern me.

On this forum I have recently told someone whom had posts all over the boards looking for answers, that no she did not simply have to give into her boyfriend's desire for sex. I had looked at her other posts and believe that they are in a young (age of participants) relationship, not a commited marriage and that he had done things that he would not take ownership of. Some advice, mostly by very hurt and fragile BS, told her she should have sex anytime he wanted to, which was the problem she was posting about. I thought it totally inappropriate given the circumstances and it was a knee jerk reaction by some to suggest that. That is one danger we have on here if we are not always checking ourselves. Kudos to the mods for handling things well most of the time, because sometimes WS won't post it, even for their own good and the reality of a board like this where we have both BS and WS and the problems that come from both of those situations.

Abuse, being a big issue for me, is something I am very sensitive to is another issue which I find troubling on these forums. I made a knee jerk reaction to a thread. In hindsight I will be more careful in the future. However, the issue of abuse is simply not understood by some and by others its severity and effects are judged by some from their own experiences. My wife never cheated on me, despite my abuse of her. She has PTSD to this day which we are both working with as well as my issues. In a case such as ours I could see where someone would "feel" justified by having an affair as way to escape the abuse within their relationship. A refuge if you will.

Now, I am not advocating that would be right in any way. However, in order to R, that couple would have to do a number of things. First and foremost the abuse would have to stop completely in order to even have a relationship that was in any way equal or healthy. The second would be that the WS in this case be handled very carefully simply because he/she would be traumatized by that abuse. She would first have to have an environment that was condusive to his/her healing. This is an area where I see that SI may not have the correct answers all of the time. This is where the common advice is thrown on it's head. Someone who cheated in that environment would have to treated differently to someone who simply had no boundaries, etc. IMHO

For myself, I read a lot of advice which is fantastic and right on the money. I respect every one of the older members who posts their experiences. I will in future offer my experience, which includes a lot of exposure to abuse and what constitutes it and what damage it causes. I will in future be very careful about how I offer it and when I offer it. I could see where someone who had experienced actual, systematic abuse would feel that some of the advice they were given would be not so welcome in their situation. The problem for me is to determine what is real and what is unreal from often one sided posts, which is a problem which is inherent with this type of support.

I think I have gotten the gist of this thread and only wanted to offer my perspective, in the hopes that it may help us all do what we are doing on this board in the first place, trying to help with the damage from infidelity.


WS:52 Male
BS:47 Female
Working towards R and forgiveness.
Also working on domestic abuse issues (9 months abuse free, working hard for more)
My wife is my greatest teacher and best friend.


Posts: 320 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Florida
astudentoflife
Member
Member # 25821
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

The BS meters are pretty much foolproof, both on the betrayed side and the wayward side.

This is one are which I will disagree on a little. We are dealing with a lot of hurt on this site, and sometimes that bleeds through and advice is offered strictly because of the anger caused by being betrayed. Understandable? Absofuckinglutely. Helpful, in some cases it is not. This is where the moderators come in I think. However, they are only human and have a lot of threads to deal with.

Does it matter that it is infrequent? I think so. Because even one person put off by that type of judgement and projection could be the one person who needed this site the most and was so hurt they simply left.

I am not advocating for any immediate changes in this board, because I think it works well and helps a lot of people. The issue was brought up and I have pointed out where I think we could all be more aware of the limitations of this board, which are as I said before, inherent in this type of medium.

I was talking to my wife and she informed me about the stop sign being put to default. That is a change that I laud and shows that SI really is a great site that tries to help all concerned in a real way and questions itself and is willing to grow. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my take on this thread. I did want to address a mistake I made about the use of the stop sign in an earlier post, given my wife telling me about the changes to the stop sign I did not realize.

[This message edited by astudentoflife at 4:40 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


WS:52 Male
BS:47 Female
Working towards R and forgiveness.
Also working on domestic abuse issues (9 months abuse free, working hard for more)
My wife is my greatest teacher and best friend.


Posts: 320 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Florida
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Wow, I did not mean to post and run! After a very busy day I came to check in and saw two pages of posts. Obviously we all have strong feelings on things. Good, because this important stuff!

I will take the time to read through and respond when I can thoughtfully.

Thanks for all the feedback.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38209 | Registered: Sep 2007
pastthelies
Member
Member # 39269
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

When I first came on here Everything was pretty fresh and I was in no way in the same mental state as most of you. I am still not, it takes time. Some of the things I was told I took away-others I did not. That was because I felt it to be untrue to my situation at the time, I didnt like what I was hearing, or it simply wasnt something I agreed with at all.

As time has passed and I look back I agree with many more things. Many have given great advice and I appreciate it - even if I didnt then. Remember when you were new? It takes time to move to a place to think differently! As each month passes I am in a better place and can see more clearly and take some of the advice I didnt want to hear. I am beyond thankful for that.

I agree we are in similar situations but I still feel As are different. You cannot compare the feelings of a ons, 2 wk A, a 6 mo affair, 5 year affair or 15 yr affair. different things and amount of heart we invested in each and all different. Everyone heals and sees the light at their own pace!

This is a good place to get help, to learn and grow and be better as your fog dissipates!

Just wanted to share my thoughts and say thanks! I may not always like what has been said but I appreciate that it was.

[This message edited by pastthelies at 6:36 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Posts: 65 | Registered: May 2013
longroadhome
Member
Member # 32428
Default  Posted: 7:43 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Total Prick Wandering Husbands Who Needed Extra Help to Get Fucking Real

Hey...I come from that same bucket.

A lot of WS's do. Our heads are firmly entrenched in our backsides during and often for months after the A. To this day I find myself discovering things about myself that I don't like and need changing, an exercise I never engaged in before IC, MC and the TONS of help I got here when I first joined.

Back then, newbies knew we were starting to get it when HUFI gave us the "clapping man."

We will give you scary, painful, hard advice. We will also be the first to support you when you do the hard things. Not because we know how it feels to be YOU, but because we know how it feekls to be a WS in pain, trying to get it right.

ETA: Great topic, AN.

[This message edited by longroadhome at 7:45 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Me: WH
Her: BW, and the most amazing, beautiful person I've ever known

It is counterintuitive really... the less we defend our well-being, the more well we feel. ~ Nancy Colier


Posts: 547 | Registered: Jun 2011
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

asol, when I spoke of the BS meters being pretty much foolproof, I was speaking of the occasional troll we get here. Those posting as a BS or WS just to stir things up. And there have also been a few legitimate WS who have posted but didn't return because we didn't tell them what they wanted to hear and/or called them on their bullshit. They were still too deep in the fog to even consider the *idea* that they were broken and that it was *their choice* to have the A. Hopefully, those WS will come back and listen to the advice we can give them.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5893 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 8:43 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

I agree we are in similar situations but I still feel As are different. You cannot compare the feelings of a ons, 2 wk A, a 6 mo affair, 5 year affair or 15 yr affair. different things and amount of heart we invested in each and all different.

The specific feelings of people engaged in affairs might be different, but the major solutions to the affair are pretty similar. I feel like relating to the "emotional investment" of someone and their AP is less important than solutions on the road to repairing the marriage.

This is, after all, about supporting the marriage. Not about helping someone focus on their AP and the cruel cruel fate that has kept them apart.

In my view honesty is integral to reconciliation (and marriage in general) and I don't think any of us should shy away from encouraging something as basic as marital honesty because we're afraid of alienating posters who don't feel like being honest.


Posts: 3197 | Registered: Mar 2005
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 8:54 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

This is, after all, about supporting the marriage. Not about helping someone focus on their AP and the cruel cruel fate that has kept them apart.

In my view honesty is integral to reconciliation (and marriage in general) and I don't think any of us should shy away from encouraging something as basic as marital honesty because we're afraid of alienating posters who don't feel like being honest.

*insert HUFI's clappy dude in here*

[This message edited by Aubrie at 8:54 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne


Posts: 6335 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
pastthelies
Member
Member # 39269
Default  Posted: 9:37 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Circe-

I agree the advice may be all the same but the more a Ws was invested in the A sometimes the longer it takes to sink in. Takes longer to lose feelings for Ap and get out of the fog to be able to move forward. One thing I have learned is that things take time! You can try to push yourself but it wont work until you are ready to mentally take each step forward! Some go quick, some dont.

[This message edited by pastthelies at 9:39 PM, January 12th (Sunday)]


Posts: 65 | Registered: May 2013
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

If memory serves me correctly, it took Hufi years to get his head straight. He posted and posted and posted, and it all sounded really good on paper but turns out that much of what he preached, in the early years, he wasn't practicing.

What's my point? This shit ain't easy. Even the smartest of the smart WSs had their share of tough times.

Is it tempting to want to rush newly posting WSs through the learning process? To save them from making mistakes? Sure it is! But if there's one thing in life that I've learned, it's that people will see when they are ready to see, and not a moment sooner.

As far as I'm concerned, an affair ended, is an affair ended. I, for one, can certainly celebrate the ending while I wait for the rest of the pieces to fall into place.

Do I like reading about AP mush/love/sex? Not particularly. In fact, I think it harms the WS by keeping them stuck in the muck. However, if putting that crap here saves the WS from reaching out to their AP, I'm okay with it.

As to confession of an A, I think that is a very personal choice and should not stop a poster from receiving support here in the wayward forum.


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

And another thing, I find it interesting that a website that does not condone talking about religion places such a high importance on the practice of confession.

It's also interesting to me that everyone seems hung-up on confession because it's the moral/right thing to do, but so many here cuss like drunken sailors and seem hell-bent on punishing and getting revenge on the APs (or even their own WSs) for years.

Recovery is more than just confession.


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 11:22 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

Replace word "confession" with "telling the person you (supposedly) love the truth".

No religion. No church. No morals.

Simple.


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
Remone
New Member
Member # 40260
Default  Posted: 11:29 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

I really liked the beginning of this thread and the spirit in which it was started. Unfortunately I feel it was lost in amongst the bickering and minutia. I would like to express my appreciation for this forum as a safe place for us WS's to post. Yes there are some hard things for us to hear and learn, but at the end if the day we are here for eachother. Tough love!

Amen.


Posts: 38 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Canada
confused43
Member
Member # 41802
Default  Posted: 11:49 PM, January 12th (Sunday)

I think there is a difference between giving advice, whether it's hard hitting or not and being a bully or mocking someone. Just in this topic alone it has reared it's ugly head.

I'm not saying there isn't truth to what is said in these forums, because often there is, and it does help. However some of us are looking for support but not looking to have the verbal shit beaten out of us after telling our story. We need help, methods, suggestions - that's what newbies need in my opinion.

A post recently by a vet said not a lot of waywards stick around. Maybe it's because they are scared to tell their story for fear of the response right off the bat after reading about others. *Just my opinion*

Also I've gotten a lot of constructive feedback from members in the short time I've been here. A lot from BS's too which has been very very helpful. but yes there are those comments which I find very unnecessary and it's not because I don't agree with them it's more about the delivery and coldness to them. I don't need it sugar coated but I also don't need a layer of crap put on it either.


Me: WW 42 - Him: BH 45
Dday: Confessed 1/12/14 - EA/PA: 8 months
Married: 15 years - 3 Kids(5-13)
It's scary to think you know someone well and then realize you don't~~Even scarier when you realize that person is you!

Posts: 107 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: SW Oregon
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 3:29 AM, January 13th (Monday)

Most of we WS's start on SI with our craniums' firmly ensconced in our rectums.
We're nothing but emotion and instinct, logical thought and common sense went out the window when the cheating started and 'not thinking' became a habit. It's all "I want, I want, I want, me, me, me, me,."
What we are basically, is just like a 3 year old with all the hissy fits and tantrums to go with it.

How do you deal with a 3 year old?

We could do it like this, the touchy feely, warm and fuzzy non confrontational way.

Sit down them down and have a calm and non-confrontational talk about the danger of grabbing the handle of the pot of boiling water on the cook top. We could, oh so sweetly discuss the pain of 3rd degree burns, the panicked rush to the hospital and the possibility of life long scarring. We wouldn't dare to invalidate their feelings by telling them their need to grab the handle is just plain wrong or stupid. Because who are we to judge? How could we possibly know the right thing to do? Because they're different to other 3 year olds, they're special and their need to grab the handle is special because they love the handle, they want the handle and we're just being mean by telling them it's just a handle and a pretty shabby one at that.

But would it stop the 3 year old from injuring themselves?

Or the tough love way,

You could slap the 3 year old's wrist in a sharp way to produce the required stinging sensation without causing physical injury and in a firm and commanding voice say "NO! DON'T TOUCH".
Then wait till they're a bit older and able to process logical thought before going down the whole explaining route.

There will be tears, there will be red faces, there will be foot stomping, there will be confrontation and hurt feelings.

There won't be a burnt child.

In the General Forum they have a saying.
"You can't nice a wayward back into the marriage"
Works for me.


[This message edited by SlowUptake at 6:31 AM, January 13th (Monday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
astudentoflife
Member
Member # 25821
Default  Posted: 5:49 AM, January 13th (Monday)

And another thing, I find it interesting that a website that does not condone talking about religion places such a high importance on the practice of confession.

As someone without faith, religion or belief (in the supernatural)I have no problem with this aspect of our advice. This is being called honest to the person we hurt. The only reason someone would not have to tell their spouse of infidelity is if they wanted to control the marriage themselves, which in any form of morals which will not promote honesty, but perpetuate the brokenness that it takes to commit adultry.

That is a hard concept for a WS to get. To get that they must realize the damage they have done and the way in which they treated their BS. Not so easy if left to ourselves. It is a standard that is the first form of honesty for us. We let go control of the relationship and give the BS their right to make up their own mind given all of the evidence.

I am sorry to say that if you don't do this, you won't have real honesty in your relationship and the old issues are sure to rise again. This is a must do in my opinion.


WS:52 Male
BS:47 Female
Working towards R and forgiveness.
Also working on domestic abuse issues (9 months abuse free, working hard for more)
My wife is my greatest teacher and best friend.


Posts: 320 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: Florida
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 5:55 AM, January 13th (Monday)

I agree the advice may be all the same but the more a Ws was invested in the A sometimes the longer it takes to sink in. Takes longer to lose feelings for Ap and get out of the fog to be able to move forward. One thing I have learned is that things take time!

Yes I totally agree. I came here as a WS and it did take me time. But I'm glad I had a combination of people saying "I support you" and people being more straightforward about holding me accountable. A lot of them pissed me off, and I dismissed completely. I got PM's about some of my posts from people who read my posts and identified with my BS and wanted me to do what they would like their own WS to do. I was grateful (ish) but then alienated them when I didn't immediately agree, or do those things and report back. Yet I was moving forward and I knew I was.

But there was no one at that time on the WS boards telling me that I could be dishonest and hide stuff long term. And I'm so glad, or I would have taken that liferaft and floated as long as I could.

I don't think there's anything wrong with healing in your own time. But if you float along in limbo for too long, it's like you're making a default decision to never confess, or to always have the A being this ghost in your marriage, as real as a third person but invisible. So I think taking your own time has to be combined with actually making progress towards honesty - that's all.

After a while you might think "maybe I never have to tell" and there's the danger... the heartbreak of the people who find out many years later.

So I don't disagree with you about time, and I totally get what you're saying about posters who are healed expecting instant results from WS who are still trying to come to grips. I think that might encourage false "getting it" while secretly the WS has not "got it" - I'm sure a lot of my posts made me sound farther along than I was in my head.

But I also believe that honesty is what the end goal should be, and that's where the WS is headed, even if their travel there starts out as a shuffle, or two forward-one back. I don't think the end goal should be a choice between honesty or dishonesty + limbo.

I find it interesting that a website that does not condone talking about religion places such a high importance on the practice of confession.

I'm pretty sure we use confession by its ordinary meaning: speaking with honesty about something you've been hiding. And of course a place that promotes strong marriages would also promote speaking with honesty to your spouse rather than hiding facts about your marriage. That's how you get to reconciliation (also used in its ordinary relationship sense).


Posts: 3197 | Registered: Mar 2005
DanteJace
New Member
Member # 42017
Default  Posted: 5:59 AM, January 13th (Monday)

Please read Maia's recovery guide ASAP.

OK, I'll consider it. Is it on this site? Where?
Wait, I'd like to suggest you please read Maia's recovery guide soon.

No need to get sassy. In a thread about "wayward forum is tough lately", you demonstrate the need for the thread itself.


.

Posts: 49 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: northeast US
Trying33
Member
Member # 38815
Default  Posted: 6:14 AM, January 13th (Monday)

One thing I can say is when a wayward finally comes and posts on this site, they are almost always invariably "DONE" or as near as possible to "DONE".

It's when you're:
1. sick of the affair and needing some confidence to end it
2. know it has to end and AP is close to ending it and you know it's the right thing but need some encouragement knowing it's the right thing to do
3. Just ended and A, wanting to R with BS but also withdrawing from the A/AP
4. have been "caught" and are now wanting guidance in how to fix it
5. Their BS's have asked them to find their why's and ask for help on SI

Obviously, there are many other reasons why waywards initially come to this site, but often they fall into one of the above. For me it was number 3.

I guess what I'm saying is you may get a lot of lurkers who are nearing the end of the A, but when someone actually posts, they've made enough of an effort and have most probably made the decision in their head to end it but need the support in actually doing so.


Posts: 362 | Registered: Mar 2013
CRazz
New Member
Member # 31621
Default  Posted: 6:21 AM, January 13th (Monday)

Note about website: As someone who is still and will probably be working on himself for a lot longer, this site has always been helpful. A place to go when I think I am alone, a place to find answers and a network of good poeple to reach out to.

Note to people upset with members on website: Of course there are a lot of poeple on here with a lot of different personalities. This will always be the case on forums.

Note about WS's: I was lucky enough to see that I needed to get into R asap and do what ever it took. NC, IC, MC, reading and reaching out to people here. Sometimes it feels hard to be a wayward, but someone smart told me to always think of how my behavior, attitude and how the things I do effect my BS. When I do this, it is easy to get over my own sh!t and be the person my wife needs. I am not as good at it as I should be, but I am working at it and our R get's better because of it.


Me(32): FWH
Jrazz(34): BS
DDay: Dec 17, 2010
Gorgeous, amazing DD3.5
R. Small steps forward is still progress!

Posts: 29 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: California
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 6:30 AM, January 13th (Monday)

And another thing, I find it interesting that a website that does not condone talking about religion places such a high importance on the practice of confession.

I'm not sure where you get that from because talking about religion and faith is perfectly fine here.

Debating religion and faith is what we ask member to refrain from.

Big difference


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198450 | Registered: May 2002
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, January 13th (Monday)

DJ - Aubrie kindly bumped Maia's guide. And some other interesting and informative threads.

No need to get sassy. In a thread about "wayward forum is tough lately", you demonstrate the need for the thread itself.

I haven't been called sassy since, like, 1972.

Not a word comes off my keyboard and onto this site that doesn't:

1) have the intent to challenge, encourage, relate, empathize or help. And I use a myriad of styles and subtext to nuance those goals.

2) demonstrate that I need all of those things in #1 above from SI. That's why I'm here.

What I can't figure out is why you're here. And I'll reduce my sassyness by 99.99% while I scratch my head in wonder.

Welcome, DJ. Since I'm JD maybe were destined to be oil and water, or yin and yang.

I will reiterate how sad I feel for you and your "in the dark" betrayed wife. Your words here on SI are some of the saddest I've read. I'm speaking solely for myself, and investigating why they make me sad (and also angry) is helping me learn and grow more authentic. So, yup, you're helping this sassy ass.

I'm left to wonder, is anyone here, including sassy me, capable of helping you? And are you capable of helping you?

Wayward Side getting tough? Good! It should be tough. Tough to read. Tough to relate. Tough to admit tough fucking stuff about fucked up stuff we've done. You wanna blow hot air up your IC's ass and get told what you want to hear for 6 or 7 years. Great. That IMHO defines easy. You wanna get real...that's beyond tough.

I'm here for tough. I need it to heal and grow and become authentic.

I'm an atheist. I hate Kool Aid. And finding truths about myself, and learning how I can nurture the good ones and excise the ugly ones is why I'm here.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, January 13th (Monday)

I just want to add that we are a self selecting audience. We are on here to TRY to change. Had we not cared or wanted to continue along the same path, we would still be in the fog making ourselves unhappy. We are on here voluntarily. It's hard (even on an anonymous forum) to come admit you are a shitty person. People are ready when they are ready and 12 people bullying the same point over and over again isn't going to get that person to change quicker. Some of us have a LONG way to go but baby steps.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, January 13th (Monday)

People are ready when they are ready and 12 people bullying the same point over and over again isn't going to get that person to change quicker.

People here aren't "bullying" as far as I've seen. They are being reasonable, but firm.

There is a reason people reinforce the same point over and over. Think of someone trying to negotiate their way out of something necessary - they will try excuse A, excuse B, justification C, rationalization D. If you were trying to show that person that none of those things is going to get them to their goal, you'd find yourself reinforcing the same points several times, too.

And how do you know it's not going to get that person to change?

It got me to change. It got others here to change.

FWS stick around here because we're so grateful for those changes that we are trying to pay it forward to the next person making excuses and justifications A through Z. And we need to keep ourselves honest, too. We learn, too.


Posts: 3197 | Registered: Mar 2005
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Good topic

I spent 8 years in the military, when I got there, it was a huge culture shock

The things they made me do seemed repetitive, mundane, disrespectful (because they Made us do humiliating things)

But at the end of it all, it made me a soldier. It made me a soldier like many before me, because those methods worked to make soldiers

Could all cut it? No. But lots of us did.

In affairs, you have convinced yourself that a lot of your bad marriage has been the fault of your spouse they are the big bad wolf

They didn't give you enough of this or that and newbies bring that Same mentality here. I couldn't get it from my spouse and I'm a victim. I'm hurting too because I Just dropped my boyfriend/girlfriend and write huge paragraphs about their AP and about a couple of good Sentences about their spouse.

This is surviving infidelity, not Advocating infidelity and the methods of survival demand truth, honesty, transparency and remorse. Not a big group hug of "I miss my AP" we know they do we missed ours too and the methods here knocked us back into reality.

How do you know what works in a situation you never really been in before?
You don't so it would be wise to listen to those who have. We know the "newbie" WS mindset.

We have seen it thousands of times over. We have been the newbie mindset.

Just like in the military, I thought somethings were not necessary when I went through basic training. I found that they were quite necessary for my survival when I look back at that time.
The same could be said here. The things that sound harsh and humiliating could be the very things you need to survive infidelity. Once the chaos and dust settles, you will look back and say....yes, I needed that.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2537 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Good post, FRM. As neither a newbie or a veteran I find revisiting the newbie mindset and issues very helpful. Sometimes I learn from the vets. Sometimes from the newbies. And usually, in a tribute to this place, both.

And that includes WS's and BS's.

Maybe foggy AP yearnings piss me off so much because this place has ruined the ones I had. Damn SI !!!!!!!


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Maybe foggy AP yearnings piss me off so much because this place has ruined the ones I had. Damn SI !!!!!!!

me too JD...me too


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2537 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 5:54 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Well said as always, frm.

I wouls like to add that it's not just newbies who are liable to get hit with the 2x4s. "Vets" are not exempt. I got hit with one at 4 years out. And I needed that smack upside the head.

Short version. I had a coworker (NOT the AP) that I talked to about nonwork related things - spouses, kids, grandkids, etc. I found myself looking forward to talking to him, especially about grandkids. Then one day, out of the blue, he says "Morning, beautiful" to me. That bothered me. Good, right? BUT the old wayward thinking started slipping in. I posted here, recounting what I was thinking and feeling (that post prompted a talk with my H as well). And the justifications started creeping in. But I'm a FWS, I know where this could lead, I can keep it "friendly". I tried that on the vets here and they called me on it. I stepped back, *really* looked at what I was doing... and grabbed the hands and hauled myself off the slope. They were right, I was slipping. No, it shouldn't have gone even that far but it didn't go *nearly* as far as it could have. Because the vets here swung those 2x4s.

[This message edited by Clarrissa at 6:30 PM, January 13th (Monday)]


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5893 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, January 13th (Monday)

Clarissa, you just reminded me of something similar that happened not too long ago. An unknown person FB friend requested me and I asked him how he knew me. The question came up of why I didn't just ignore. We had a mutual friend so I didn't think anything of it, but those honest and direct posts made me realize the step backwards I had taken with my wayward thinking.

The members here will tell it like it is, that's for sure. But it's good because it really helps you look in the mirror.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38209 | Registered: Sep 2007
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 8:14 PM, January 13th (Monday)

As WarpSpeed said on Unagie's t/j of this thread - we "listened with good intent". We *know* why the WS call us out - we've done it ourselves and with the same intent. What I really remember about that post isn't the 2x4s, it was my H came in just after I hit submit and asked about it. That led to our talk. I was honest with him, told him what was going on, even admitting I found this coworker attractive. I told him of the compliment and how it bothered me. He told me he saw my reaction as a *good* thing. My boundaries were firming up. But it was the 2x4s that really got me to look and as I said, I grabbed the hands and pulled myself off the slope, a bit disgusted that it had gotten even that far but greatful it hadn't gone farther. I was reminded that even at 4 years out, I still needed to be vigilant.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5893 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 8:19 PM, January 13th (Monday)

. I was reminded that even at 4 years out, I still needed to be vigilant.
Exactly. That was key for me.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38209 | Registered: Sep 2007
Topic Posts: 55