SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
Wayward Side
User Topic: Judgment in Replies??
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, February 7th (Friday)

I'm going to say you a lot, so please know this is meant in the general term and not directed at any one person.


I've been in this forum for over 10 years and in the last 2 months the influx of new WS's has been great...truly!

However, the statements of "judgmental people" "Attacked!" is irrational and nothing more than a means to deflect the real issue...your affair and inability to be accountable.

I know of just about every single infidelity support site on the internet and don't think I'm not a member of most of them I can promise you there is no where near close to how protected this forum is. If you think you're getting attacked in here...go out there and see what you're up against.

When we created the WS Forum, it was almost 2 years after SI launched. MH and I went up against our original Moderators because we felt so strongly that the internet needed a place just for WS's to help work through their issues. This particular forum is very close to our hearts.

We moderators spend an enormous amount of time on SI and much of it is in this forum protecting YOU. Not only do you have us Moderator...but you also have the ability to block BS replies by LEAVING THE STOP SIGN ICON ON. Its on by default, so if you clicked it off, then that's your deal.

Use this site for support but stop acting like a 7th grader.

Vent over.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Can I take this opportunity to say thank you?

I know from personal experience that most moderators work on a voluntary basis, I'm assuming you do too and so, thank you for dedicating so much of your time and hard work to making this such a safe place for all of us.

Infidelity is such a hard topic to talk about, emotions will always run high but this is definitely the best site I've come across. All the members I've spoken to on here have been supportive and understanding.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 3:45 PM, February 7th (Friday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1192 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Sparkle0504
Member
Member # 40379
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, February 7th (Friday)

No stop sign (lol).

BS here. I've been on SI for about 6 months and it has to be the fairest, best moderated site I've seen. This at a time when emotions are running at the highest most people will experience in their lifetimes.

Just want to say thank you. It's been the difference, for me, between coping and entering the loony bin.


Me 44 (BS)
Him 52 (SAWH)
DDay (too many to mention), but 1st 06/2011
Children - two, mine from my previous marriage
Final straw 6/6/14

You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think (A A Milne)


Posts: 190 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: England
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 4:04 PM, February 7th (Friday)

You are both most welcome!

We love SI and the community here and we believe in the mission statement of healing

I'm really glad you both are here with us


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
Brandon808
Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Ditto on BBT''s ''Thank you''

As a BH I have tried to offer support on the WS forum because I never saw any remorse in my own experiences. Not just remorse but any fixing of those issues. In the case of my xww every time I have someone volunteer new information it is never good. I get no satisfaction from that. I wished (and still do wish) that she would resolve her own issues regardless of how things were left between her and I. It would be better for her, her family and most importantly her daughter (my step-daughter).

The bottom line is the purpose of SI is to help everyone heal. So thanks again.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 3662 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Ditto to all of the above!


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 366 | Registered: Dec 2013
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Brandon...

I feel the WS's are very lucky to have you help them in here. You along with several other BS's really go above and beyond with your support, but also constructive guidance...thank you


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 4:17 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Well said, DS. What I observe, more often than not in those situations, is the new WS bristling at the wayward vets all giving them similar advice, and calling them out on logical fallacies and whatnot. The WS forum here is super protected and moderated from BS intervention, but the waywards here don''t pull punches either, and I wonder sometimes if waywards who spend time in forums more...ummm.... "accommodating" to wayward behaviors are kind of shocked when the (fellow WS) vets call them out.
I know of just about every single infidelity support site on the internet and don''t think I''m not a member of most of them
Lol. You ARE everywhere.


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
CantBeUndone
Member
Member # 42205
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, February 7th (Friday)

This is interesting to me. I come here TO be judged. I don't need to be coddled. I come here because sometimes I don't know if what I'm thinking is rational or fair or whatever. I need someone telling me to get my shit together. I've really never seen a thread here (granted I'm pretty new) where any hard advice wasn't given gently. I appreciate this forum and the regulars that reply here. Thank you!


Me: WW
Him: BH
30's, 4 kids
DD- Jan 2014

Posts: 55 | Registered: Jan 2014
ascian
Member
Member # 40304
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, February 7th (Friday)

The WS forum, and in particular the behavior of the regulars and moderators here, is what has kept me on SI after the initial panic feeling of D-Day had passed.

I don't post in the Wayward forum much, but the fact that it exists as it does really demonstrates that SI is about helping people heal after the trauma of infidelity.


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 266 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Lol. You ARE everywhere.

I own the internet

That's a good point FP...I think you're right. WS's that are currently in their affair and come here I don't think are prepared to hear the hard truths from other WS's. That's when we're accused of drinking the kool-aid

My hope is for them to stick around or at least come back when they're more focused on ending their affair and looking inward towards healing.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
Tickingtock
Member
Member # 41411
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, February 7th (Friday)


Me: 31

Posts: 148 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: West Coast, USA
mrmaximum
Member
Member # 15965
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Former BXBF and a former child who had witnessed infidelity with his parents growing up here. I donít post very often but I had to chime in to this thread. The WS forum has been instrumental in my healing despite my only being a long time lurker. When I first signed up, I was actually appalled that there was a protected forum for waywards. In fact, in my muddled thinking at the time I would actually get a little upset when I read about a BS trying to reconcile with their remorseful wandering spouse. I wanted BSís to deliver excruciating retribution with extreme prejudice and for ALL waywards to feel pain and suffer for the rest of their lives.

Then I began reading some wayward threads and started seeing the hard work and dedication they displayed while they busted their heinies. To see the effort and reflection they would put in not even knowing if their BSís would still be there a day, a week, a month, even a year later. They put in actions, expressed remorse and I had rarely seen this type of effort on any other forum before in my life.

Yes, I literally hated (strong word but 100% appropriate) any and all waywards when I got here, and that hate turned into respect when I saw the earth shattering effort so many put in. To own their sh!t, find their whyís, learn about themselves, and begin to fix themselves and their marriages.

Then I noticed one more thing, just how many waywards would sign up and how many would fade away once the going got tough. That alone told me that earning an ďFĒ was an extremely challenging thing to do. As the saying goes; ďMany are called, but the chosen are fewĒ and the amazing thing is that the chosen ones made those choices to fight through the fog and earn those Fís themselves!! I realized that it takes GUTS for a wayward to look into that mirror; to recognize what has actually happened was solely their choice despite the circumstances and decide to make a change.

When one contrasts the stories of WSí learning about themselves, healing past hurts and moving past their choices against some of the stories of unremorseful waywards who run from the truth from many BSís on this site, it truly blew my mind how strong remorseful waywards on their way to earning their Fís really are. I learned (and to this day am still learning) that the only way to ever earn that F, is to acknowledge that at one point in time, one was a WS by choice.

So I guess my message to any WS who may be lurking or stung by 2 x 4ís in certain threads is that if the message stings, itís because it hit close to home. Examine why it stung and begin to unravel the layers. The FWS and the FWS Ďin trainingí here are freaking amazing and wonít steer you wrong. Yeah Iíve been on some other sites, and I can tell you that if you think this one is bad, there are others out there where it literally feels like they level an elephant gun at you and blast away.

The only way through this sh!t sandwich is to go through it. Running from the truth only seems easier as opposed to fixing oneís issues. And to quote a saying about running from the truth; ďIf you start running, you have to keep running, and itís very tiring in the long run.Ē


You do not destroy the ones you love!!!
Best quote EVAR;
"Lose the battle, win the war" EZ4U

Posts: 64 | Registered: Aug 2007 | From: Georgetown
Catwoman
Member
Member # 1330
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, February 7th (Friday)

I "lived" through many iterations of what is now the Wayward Forum, and let me attest to all of you that DS, MH and all of the moderators past and present have poured a great deal of time, effort and experimentation into making this forum a unique healing tool for WSs.

I know I couldn't have come up with the solution that is now the Wayward Forum.

Cat


FBS: Married 20 years, 2 daughters 25 and 22. Divorced by the grace of GOD.
D-Days: 2/23/93; 10/11/97; 3/5/03
Ex & OW Broke up 12-10
"An erection does not count as personal growth."

Posts: 29541 | Registered: Apr 2003 | From: Massachusetts
Secrets Kept
Member
Member # 40630
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, February 7th (Friday)

All GREAT responses & I totally agree!!!! Also want to say thank you, "deeply scared" for all your efforts.

I too need to back up your comment to "Brandon" as I have been noticing his posts as well & thinking he was giving some very good advice, so way to go Brandon. (and the others not mentioned at this time!!!)

Sad we have to have this website at all but am so glad it is here!!!


Marriage #1=BW-46 (now)
XWH-Deceased on his 36 bday
Divorced in 1996
Marriage #2= Married in 2003
H-44
2 kids together-DS14 & DD12
"All this time I was finding myself & I didn't know I was lost"

Posts: 199 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Midwest USA
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 5:27 PM, February 7th (Friday)

the new WS bristling at the wayward vets all giving them similar advice, and calling them out on logical fallacies and whatnot.
I think this is about as accurate as you can get. When your head is that far up your ass, anything that doesn't fall in line with your fucked up thinking is an "attack" or a "judgment". I'm straight, no chaser because I know that's what it took for me to wake up. No sugar coating, no coddling, none of that - just truth. Some folks just ain't ready to hear it.


FWW - 40
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5767 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
LovesLaboursLost
Member
Member # 37272
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, February 7th (Friday)

^^^^^^^ what MJ said. Since when is it worse to call out bad behavior than to actually, ya know...BEHAVE BADLY. Thanks for this thread, DS, and everything else you do.


I'm a work in progress.

Posts: 77 | Registered: Oct 2012
Want To Wake Up
Member
Member # 31583
Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, February 7th (Friday)

For once I'll be subtle...

To Deeply♥ and all the Mods, Admins & Guides...


Me 50+
WH 50+ (SlowUptake)
DDay '09
Latest TT... Nov '13 (not a typo!)


One manís ďfruitless conflictĒ is another manís ďmeaningful discussionĒ


Posts: 470 | Registered: Mar 2011
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, February 7th (Friday)

+1

Both Crazz and I thank you from the bottom of our hearts for everything you do.


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16435 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, February 7th (Friday)

I personally log onto SI darn near every single day. The very first place I go is the Wayward Forum. I consider it home base. The majority if my posting happens right here. I wish I could post more often but it just seems to take me too long to pump out short novels because I am not really short and to the point.

I couldn't be more grateful for this site and particular the WS forum. I am certain that without the support of the members here, I would be divorced today. It's pretty incredible when you think about it. Not just the moderators and guides, but the members to take time from their day to read and offer their guidance and support. This massive group of people can come together with no other motive than to get help and then return that favor. Understandably emotions can run high, but in the long run I believe we want the same outcome... To be healthy.

Some of us can get there with minor speed bumps, others (like myself) get there kicking and screaming, not always ready to hear the hard truths. But of you keep coming back, keep reading things will start to click and eventually sink in.

I log on daily to remind myself where I have come from and what I am still working towards. I appreciate all that goes into having a place to help so many people heal from infidelity.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 614 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
Cornbread
New Member
Member # 41006
Default  Posted: 8:47 PM, February 7th (Friday)

I think it is important for those who post to take into consideration the experiences of their "target." I think many posters craft their responses for the regulars, even though it is a newbie asking for help. Many seem to want to be the first to clobber the newbie in an unconscious effort to garner acceptance from the SI community, or to demonstrate how far they have come. 2x4s may be appropriate for those who have been adequately counseled but need a wake-up. Disastergirl was clearly in pain and reaching out for help. She could have been shown a little compassion and gently steered in the proper direction. Instead, we were ganging up on her and scolding her for not thinking correctly. Hopefully she will return, because she is clearly a troubled soul in need of a little understanding.


Me: WH (57)
Her: BW (45)
D-Day: #1 - 2005, #2 - 10/2012
Status: R

Posts: 17 | Registered: Oct 2013
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 9:17 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Even as a BS I've learned so much in this forum in understanding my husband and even gaining empathy for him.


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 9:26 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Thank you Deeply, Mods, Admins & Guides for your support to all and for your patience with me in particular.

Many seem to want to be the first to clobber the newbie in an unconscious effort to garner acceptance from the SI community, or to demonstrate how far they have come

Jeez Cornbread, you make it sound like we Waywards are a pretty screwed in the head bunch.
Craving acceptance and validation from internet strangers.

I disagree.
My take is that there are two distinct 'styles' of advice giving in the Wayward forum.
I don't believe there is any motivation "unconscious" or otherwise except wanting to help newbies 'see the light'.

First style 'Warm & Fuzzie'. Supportive, sympathetic, empathic, concilatory, lots of words to indicate it's only an opinion in deference to the OP's sensibilities.

Second style 'Wake up & Smell The Coffee'. Blunt, to the point, this is reality, take it or leave it.

Both 'styles' have merit, neither one is right or wrong.
Both can be taken too far. (something I have been guilty of)

Of course that's just my humble opinion, as long as no one is offended, gets upset or feels judged.

ETA: I have noticed a lot of fans of the 'Warm & Fuzzie' style passing judgement on the use of the 'Wake up & Smell The Coffee' style.
I have yet to see the opposite.
Just an observation.

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 10:18 PM, February 7th (Friday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 364 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
knightsbff
Member
Member # 36853
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Want to add my voice in thanking DS, MH, mods, guides, BSes, and fellow waywards for the abundance of help I have received here. I have never felt attacked here. I have had to face hard truths and I'm so grateful for those who were willing to tell me straight up and help me see the light.


FWW 40's
D-day August 27, 2012
3 kids and 2 dogs

Posts: 1391 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Deep South, USA
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Cornbread, I have to respectfully disagree WRT Disastergirl. I feel qualified to speak to this because, anyone who remembers or wants to go back and look at my first few posts...I was very similar to Disastergirl. In pain and reaching out for help? Maybe I was, subconsciously. I''m frankly too mortified to go back and look at my early posts, but I''m sure the responses were a combination of 2x4''s and compassion.

And you know what? It didn''t make a bit of difference. I wasn''t ready. I hadn''t hit bottom yet.

Instead, we were ganging up on her and scolding her for not thinking correctly.

Personally I didn''t see that happen, but I won''t dispute your interpretation of it.

Hopefully she will return, because she is clearly a troubled soul in need of a little understanding.

ITA. So was I. And I did return. Thanks y''all.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response thereís a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1045 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 11:06 PM, February 7th (Friday)

When I found this forum, all I can say I was thankful, I had read a lot of books already, but nowhere could I talk to others , and be free to talk and to listen. Not to be judged, a place where I could let out my mixed up thoughts , place that I could give me some guidance and a place that maybe I could pass on my experience.

There has been enough support caring, and truths , that have kept me from faltering. Almost like a mothers care. lol sorry if to feely or sentimental.

As a mother you have to nurture and support but you also speak truths and prepare for reality.

I think this entire forum lets this process happen. And only the ones ready to accept can see the benefit. I have, and am thankful and greatful that you all have given us this place.

Thank you,


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 387 | Registered: Apr 2013
Marriedman2013
New Member
Member # 39254
Default  Posted: 11:46 PM, February 7th (Friday)

Deeply, I am sure you are refererring to me as i made a statement to that affect in a recent post.

I am not trying to be disrespectful to what the moderators are trying to do to help people and i apologize if you took it that way

However, how do you not see that you are being judgemental when your 3rd paragraph calls me out as "being irrational and not dealing with the real issues which is infidelity". And then said I was acting as a 7th grader at the end.

I am curious to know how you know this to be true. Because I didnt answer a question in a certain way, or didnt use the right words to prove to you that I want to change. Or just because I raised the issue?

Where is the objectivity in your statements? Do you not need objectivity because you have reached the other side of infidelity and know the only path to it.

If people didnt want to change they would never look for help, find this site or post their stories.

As I have said, I think this is a powerful healing community but I am concerned that many comments tend to boarder on self righteousness from waywards. When someone has reached the other side of infidelity they then become moralisticly superior and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.....particularly those that waver and struggle. Just as we justify our behavior in our affairs, we justify self righteousness as being ok because we are trying to "help" someone.

I am still here dealing with my issues, trying to get the point where you are at, I just dont always agree with how some people choose to employ their help.

[This message edited by Marriedman2013 at 11:51 PM, February 7th (Friday)]


Posts: 21 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Midwest
Sad in AZ
Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

If you tend to spend the bulk of your time in the Wayward forum, you may not realize that BSs get smacked around a bit and with good reason. In the beginning, we're often in a deep fog and don't always hear what's helpful.

I had to back off from posting when I first joined SI because I had been doing EVERYTHING wrong for two years before I found this site. Now I tend to be very blunt with newly betrayed spouses. I'm not touchy-feely, and won't blow smoke.

I have a number of friends who are former waywards, and I love and respect them deeply. Listen carefully, and take what you need. You won't find a safer place.


I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.

Posts: 19806 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

To those taking this message personally please stop. Its the exact behavior DS was speaking of. No as vets (and I don't consider myself one yet)we do not hold back whether it be a newbie or an old timer. If anything the newbies need the most blunt honesty to help pull them out of their pity me mode. I posted and ran for a month or so after my first post. I came back when I was ready for the truth. I got some harsh advice that would piss me off and then I examined why it was pissing me off. I think as waywards we want so badly for someone to hug us and tell us we're not bad people that when we get whacked with some truth we get super defensive. I am not going to hold punches for anyone because I am tired of living a life of holding things in because I might hurt someone's feelings. I don't purposely go out scouring this forum for new people to bash but when I read a post with someone with their head still in a bad place I will be very blunt. This forum is not about coddling, its about growing up.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2639 | Registered: Oct 2012
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 3:09 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes!!!! It is absolutely about growing up. I too have taken some "hard" hits. I still do, every day. But it's worth it. I'm still dense. I'm still immature. I'm grateful for the patience of the people here. They are my greatest allies. They challenge me to really look at what I'm saying/thinking/feeling/doing. What would I do without SI and our Mods/Guides? I don't know, but I do know I would still be lost.

[This message edited by Wayflost at 12:08 AM, February 9th (Sunday)]


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 366 | Registered: Dec 2013
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 5:20 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

You take the good and the bad with a website. Some of the veteran waywards are awesome and give amazing advice and frankly are why I keep coming back and reading. Others have their heads so far up their own sanctimonious asses they can't see out the other side.

There are newbies (such as myself) that need to hear the hard truth and others that aren't ready. I find that if you want to make a point, do it respectfully. Tough love isn't rude and it doesn't come from a place of judgement. No one on here (at least to my knowledge) is a MC or IC and you should treat advice on here like all advice on the internet.

I will continue to read and post but I certainly will be pointing posters who cross a line.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 6:05 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

The wayward forum is the most protected forum here. When we see a wayward getting bombarded, the team of moderators will discuss whether or not it's appropriate, or within the guidelines/wayward forum description. There's a lot of gray area, but it is never decided by one person, there is much discussion and the subject isn't taken lightly of whether or not mod action is necessary.

Perfect system? No. But you (general statement) can be damn sure we want the waywards who come here to feel safe and supported. Or at least learn the tools they need to heal and get through the shitstorm they created.

How is somebody going to heal if they only hear 'good job', or if they don't get real suggestions for a very real and destructive fuck up?

I never understand it when a wayward comes here and is told 'that was a crappy thing to do', or 'you need to cut the shit' and they get offended. Cheating IS a crappy thing to do. You DO need to cut the shit.

We're not talking about puppies and rainbows here. Sometimes it doesn't feel good, sometimes posts make us angry, make us sad, make us happy. Feel the feelings, open your ears, realize that people posting to you know what you're talking about. Everybody here has BTDT in one form or another. Of course it doesn't all apply to you, but some thing, many things that people post are going to help. I guarantee it.

Listen up, this is all good stuff here. Free therapy!

Oh, and take what you need and leave the rest.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 36635 | Registered: Sep 2007
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 7:22 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

Marriedman2013...

The very first sentence in my original post clarifies that this not about any on person in particular.

ETA:

I am still here dealing with my issues, trying to get the point where you are at, I just dont always agree with how some people choose to employ their help.

And that's great that you're still here!! No one is saying you have to agree with everything here, all I'm saying is for you (again, general term) stop viewing things as an "attack" "bashing" etc., just because someone else has a different point of view.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:57 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
NaiveAgain
Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

I have been here for quite a while, and in my experience, this is the safest place on the internet. It is the ONLY place I am comfortable with my WS going to right now and our actual terms for R are that if he gets on the internet, it is to this site only.

As a BS, I too have gotten a few 2 x 4s, when I was dealing with my original WS who was a SA but I didn't want to see it (and I kept getting the same reaction to everything I posted...he is STILL an addict, he is STILL manipulating, WAKE UP) and I eventually did. (Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart to everyone in the "old days" who gave me the truth even when I didn't want to hear it.

And in NB when I was dating and making more bad choices (and I kept thinking, wait! I've done all the self growth I need to, ouch, and then, shoot, I obviously still have more issues to address....)

Being coddled, being gentle, being subtle....that is great for children and babies. Being told the truth and being expected to own your own issues means you are being treated like an adult. You may not want to hear it, it may not "feel good". But when you are making unhealthy choices in your life, someone needs to put it right there in front of your face. Because when we don't want to deal with our own problems, and we are in pain (especially of our own making because of stupid mistakes) people coddling us isn't going to teach us anything. AA works so well for those that are ready for it because the old-timers there can "smell" when you are lying and not being authentic. Same here. Those that BTDT can "smell" when someone else is making the same mistakes they made and will call them out on them because truth is the only thing that truly works.

And I do want to get in a THANK YOU!!! I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! to the administrators and moderators on this site. They are an amazing, dedicated group of people (as are the ones that stick around to help others).

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 8:17 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 15108 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

This site has been a great place for me to heal and get candid and awesome advice from members here. I have been smacked by 2x4's myself and while it may sting to get one, most of the time it's what's needed.
I have made plenty of members angry at me for my "in your face" style and hard truths. Those members whom were angry with me would come back later and thank me for what I said to them.

It is not meant to be judgmental or an attack. More on the lines of being an ocean of cold water thrown in your face to get new and old waywards to see the damage they are doing or have done.

Some waywards come here and are remorseful and all they need is steering in what they should be doing and what to expect from their BS.

Others come here regretful, but not remorseful and still in ME,ME,ME mode. When that is pointed out, the reflex action is to become defensive.
"You don't know me"
No I don't,but I know infidelity and what comes along with it

"You're judging me"

No I'm holding the mirror up so you can see how
you have destroyed your marriage and if you don't change, you may never get it back.

If I was being judgmental, I would be calling women names like whore and slut.

I would be calling men scumbags,dirtbags and deadbeats. ( I have called OM those names..guilty, but not waywards trying to get help)

No one is here to run you off. We're all here to help.
Thanks to DS,MH and all the Mods,Guides and Administrators for their hard work and dedication.

Thanks to all the members here for making this a great place to get help.

In retrospect...no one is here to attack or judge anyone...like the motto goes...

Take what you need and leave the rest


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2473 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

It never fails. A person gives their opinion on a belief which differs from another person, and they're labeled judgmental and a bully. Drives me nuts. People disagree. It's human nature. But we can't handle it so we start throwing around ridiculous words like "judgmental" and "bully" in an effort to make ourselves feel better and ward off the "bad guys".

Judgmental why? Because you (general term) feel threatened that someone isn't on "your side". If you need someone on your side, look at your AP. But then...there's a reason why you're on SI so obviously that AP isn't really "all that" otherwise you wouldn't be looking for help right? There is something deeper within, screaming for help, and you know the AP isn't the answer.

You want someone to help you? Listen to what they're saying. One would imagine that a person that's been there, done that, bears the scars, has the t-shirt, and is running that marathon juuuuuust mught know what they're doing. And yeah it's hard. I get my butt handed to me all the time. On the boards, via PM. It's tough to listen to this stuff. But I also know they've been right 100% of the time.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6058 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

Smez how are other waywards being sanctimonious? It is a serious question as I'm curious. The very fact that we are waywards should prevent us from feeling that way as obviously at one point some of our morals were in the gutter. I feel and this is just my opinion that when we are tdying to hold up the mirror to others that some feel we're trying to be superior and think ourselves better. Thats not the case, at least not for me. A lot of times when I am tough its because is see so much of me and who I was and am trying to change in that person.


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

Do not let others be your reference for who you see in the mirror.

Stop allowing people to hurt you, because you don't love you enough to walk away.


Posts: 2639 | Registered: Oct 2012
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

At the risk of sounding judgmental (not my intent), isn't a need for validation instead of real feedback what led many waywards to having affairs in the first place?

I have a lot of compassion for WSs who are still in the early stages of wanting to deal with their issues and the fallout but aren't quite there yet. It is harder for me to muster a lot of sympathy for complaints about not liking the advice being given by other WSs. I might feel differently if I thought that BSs were treated any differently, but if you read through some of the longer threads started by BSs you quickly see that along with the care, concern, and warm fuzzies, there are plenty of warnings, admonishments, and wake up calls dished out.

I recall one time a couple of years ago I posted about something that was really bothering me. I was looking for validation for my feelings and someone to say "poor you". What I got instead was a lot of pointed questions that I admit felt a lot like judgement. But, when I stepped back and thought about it, they were right. I had not really figured out why I felt the way I did, and the comments I received pointed me in directions I hadn't considered. I figured out that my problem that time wasn't my H, but the way I was thinking. Although I didn't realize it at the time, the support I was getting was way more helpful than "poor you" ever could have been. I had to get past not getting what I hoped for in order to see that, though.

I know the intent is to help WS work through their issues, but as a BS the wayward forum has been a real gift. It encouraged me to believe that my H was worth taking another chance on. I don't think that would have been possible if I hadn't seen the pain expressed here, and the responses that contained both compassion and the occasional hard truth.

Edited for stupidautocorrect

[This message edited by cdnmommy at 9:46 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1725 | Registered: Nov 2010
HFSSC
Member
Member # 33338
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

This is an awesome thread, and very timely for me personally.

First of all, I will say emphatically and with very little doubt that JM and I would probably not be married today if he had not come to this forum, asked for help and followed the advice he was given. He was smacked a couple of times and those were the replies that helped him (and us) the most.

Second, there is a saying in the rooms of AA that goes something like, "My best thinking is what got me here." And that is powerful, and true. My best thinking got me into a very destructive 20 year battle with addictions, an EA and being the OW in an online A. JM's best thinking got him into several As which were successively more and more destructive. If you are here as a wayward, your best thinking is what brought you here. So it would behoove you to take a step back and listen to others when you THINK they are wrong, or judgmental, or mean. Another saying I hear a lot is "Brain broke-first thought wrong." My first thought or response is usually not coming from a healthy place in my mind. I have learned to pause, and wait for the second or third thought before I react instinctively.

Lastly, I have been doing a lot of study this week on the difference between judgment and discernment. My church has been going through a long situation of drama and hurt feelings and wrong behavior. At the core of it was infidelity. Whether it was the appearance of infidelity, rumors and lies that had no basis in fact, or true infidelity only the people involved know for sure. But there was some very wrong behavior on the part of our pastor, our deacons and the members which needs to be corrected. And those of us who are striving for things to be made right have been accused of being judgmental and unforgiving. Well, there is a HUGE difference between being judgmental or passing judgment, and using discernment.

If you feel that someone (or a bunch of someones) is being judgmental, it may be that they are discerning something wrong in your attitude, your statements or your behavior that they need to challenge. You are here because you need help. (That's not directed at any one person, just a general statement.) If something pisses you off, that's probably an area that you really need to focus on.


Me, 47
Him, 40 (JMSSC)
married 17 years. In R. We are making it. The past does not define who we are today.

Posts: 2659 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: South Carolina
HUFI-PUFI
Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

I am of the firm belief, that when the WS walks out of the fog, into clarity, full of regret and remorse, it is inevitable that we become judgmental, of ourselves and of our actions. The act of thinking, I am a monster, is a act of self-judgement. So, if we come from a place of self-judgement in our healing journey, is it so surprising that at times, members seem judgmental of the thoughts and actions of others? I think the desire to share hard earned knowledge is part of human nature.

While some see that as a failure of SI, I personally see that as a strength of the site. If the older wiser members of SI had not called me out from my very first post, I might never have gotten past the foggy side. Having my words analysed and poured over, my motives questioned and my thoughts judged were the very things that lead to my self-understanding. MissesJai, Maia, beach, UnexpectedSong, chasingpavements, Waywardson, authenticnow, Listeningclosely, ThoughtIKnewYa, Edie, Card, Fallen and BaxtersBFF are all on the list of WS's who called me out at various times. I am thankful that for them, providing support did not mean just agreeing to my every thought but it also meant calling a spade a spade and yes, that was often said in a very honest and blunt manner. Sometimes it was hurtful but I could see that even the critical judgmental remarks gave something to my self-healing.

I always understood and readily accepted that each member here, including the mods, were here on SI as a result of adultery being as much of a part in their lives as it was in mine. From day one, I clearly knew that the members were not professional therapists, psychotherapists and psychiatrists but rather, they were people just like me, either a WS or a BS in their own right. Depending on who relied to my posts, I could see that everyone had their own style. But in general, the community as a whole showed a uncanny ability to understand what I was going through, make concrete suggestions for healing and at times, swing the 2x4.

Each of us are individuals, unique and different but there a common thread that binds us all. the act of adultery. And with that core experience uniting us, all of us here have some BTDT experience to share. That shared experience is what binds us here. The truth is that if you donít see things the way that the crowd does, then thatís your prerogative. Just as I am entitled to disagree with anything you said. That is why the adage of 'take what you need and leave the rest" is mentioned here time after time.

SI is not a touchy feelie place by its very institutional structure. This is not a place of detached, analytic and clinical discourse. This is a moderated forum for the lay WS to express their own personal issues. To give and receive support. And while you (in general) may control what support you offer and how that is offered including what words you use and how you present them, the truth is that you cannot control what the other members think, feel and offer up. Thatís just not how this forum works.

Moderators do and will take steps including warnings, PM messages and locking threads where appropriate but they are not our mothers and they cannot police each and every message. The filtering of messages, helpful and harmful is left to ourselves. The phrase, put your big girl panties on, applies to all of us here regardless of our sex.

Again it cannot be said often enough, we are not a professional counselling service and so, the quality of advice that we offer is very much conditional on where each member is in their own self-growth, the emotional connection of the subject matter and the pain and hurt being reflected back.

HUFI

Edited for spelling

[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 10:55 AM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3226 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Cool  Posted: 11:06 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

DS, upon reading your OP again I noticed you referenced the two-month time frame. In addition to the influx of new WS''s, IMO another factor behind the more volatile climate in Wayward, about which both you and AN (https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/text.forums.asp?tid519253) have recently made similar observations, could be the departure of several vets. Even though I don''t know why they left, nor do I question your (collective) decision, the absence of TG, HL & UO has left a void.

Going back to Cornbread''s example. Every single Wayward who posted on Disastergirl''s thread was a "New Member" with fewer than 50 posts. Don''t get me wrong, the member with 45 posts is just as valuable to SI as one with 4500. But when we''re first facing our demons, it''s easier to project and displace onto others, than to look at ourselves. Thus the heightened sensitivity to being judged or attacked. Speaking from my anecdotal observations, and personal experience because I was *totally* this way...it''s quite often the New Member who can dish it out, but can''t take it. Totally normal, possibly unavoidable, part of the healing process IMO.

There wouldn''t be an SI without the contributions of new and veteran members, and SI doesn''t, and shouldn''t, depend upon the presence of any individual to thrive. I''m sad that we lost some members whose advice was instrumental to me in my early days, and I miss them. Without their (and many, many others''!) judgmental attacks I wouldn''t be where I am today.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response thereís a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1045 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

I....don't think that I can add anything that HUFI didn't just say better.

As far as how the newbies sometimes get whacked (both BS and WS alike), I think it really depends on the situation and the 'tone' of the original poster in a particular thread. If the new WS has lurked long enough to spit out all the 'right' words, but still has that vague whiff of entitlement, affair-specialness, and "I-was-driven-to-this-by-a-loveless-marriage", then I think 2x4s are merited and are frequently given...becaue what that attitude calls for is not hugs, but hammers. given. People feel "ganged up on", because the people we have here that have BTDT have mostly arrived to similar viewpoints with the benefit of hindsight, and so the advice sounds similar. That's not a cult, or drinking kool-aid...that's just the collected wisdom of people who have lived in your situation, KWIM?

And it happens on the BS side as well. We see people arrive like weeks to a month after DDAY saying that their WS is 'doing all the right things' and 'showing remorse', and that they are reconciling and have forgiven their WS....only to let slip some info (once they get more comfortable here) that makes it sound like they are not reconciling, but rugsweeping. These people are in some serious hurt and fear, but supressing it and not seeing their situation clearly...those people need 2x4s, too, but it just takes a more gentle form, methinks.


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, February 8th (Saturday)

I've been wondering about the same thing that 20wrongs was up thurr.^^^ Like she said, SI doesn't depend upon any individual(s) at any given time, but when there is a departure of longtime vets combined with what seemed to be a big influx of new WS, it seemed like it threw off the 'gene pool', so to speak. At least for a while. Things can, and will, balance out eventually. SI has been around since like 2002, right? I have no doubt that there have been plenty of ebbs and flows and influxes of newbies and clusters of departures. Nothing ever really ends, it just cycles.

Disastergirl''s thread was a "New Member" with fewer than 50 posts. Don''t get me wrong, the member with 45 posts is just as valuable to SI as one with 4500.
I don't know if I read that thread, but I noticed it in other ones as well. It'd be like one newbie OP, and then one vet valiantly waging a war against (seemingly) every other poster as the voice of reason.


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

There is a lot of false equivalences. NO ONE is saying that people don't need a reality check sometimes. No one is asking for validation for their affair or what not. Most of the posts are about "I feel x." And instead of coming in and asking WHY...There are a lot of YOU SHOULDN'T statements and here is how you should feel.

There is no single path to healing and if people took the time to actually stop, take a breathe, remember where this person is and then approach them...they might get a lot more success. There is not particular timeline or path to healing. No everyone has the same issues and not ever solution that worked for you is appropriate for someone else.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

There is no single path to healing and if people took the time to actually stop, take a breathe, remember where this person is and then approach them...they might get a lot more success.

I guess my question is why should the person offering the advice be the one stopping and taking that breath? If someone comes here for advice it is hopefully because they acknowledge they need help. When I have needed the most help has typically been when I was thinking the least clearly, and that was when that deep breath, pause, and the question of "why am I reacting this way to what is being said?" has been the most beneficial.

That is why I made the comment about validation. Because I''ve been there, on this site, looking to have my feelings validated without even realizing that is what I was wanting. It was the other BSs who pushed me to look at myself. They didn''t lack compassion or understanding quite the opposite they were blunt with me because they understood exactly where I was coming from.

[This message edited by cdnmommy at 12:24 PM, February 8th, 2014 (Saturday)]


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1725 | Registered: Nov 2010
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

It's how you phrase your advice.

You SHOULD...isn't the same as Have you thought about x.

You SHOULDN'T do x isn't the same as How is x helping you forward...

You NEED to do x...

It's all about phrasing. No one is saying don't give advice...it's how you give it.

There are some older vet's that really do a great job of dispensing hard to hear advice in a way that isn't off putting.

Edited to say that HUFI-PUFI is an excellent example of how to give advice. Never one to hold back the truth but does it in a respectful manner!

[This message edited by smez at 12:49 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
LovesLaboursLost
Member
Member # 37272
Default  Posted: 1:02 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

smez,
have you thought about why this bothers you so?


I'm a work in progress.

Posts: 77 | Registered: Oct 2012
isadora
Member
Member # 29130
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Why is phrasing so important? No one has the same writing style. Some are more blunt, some ask questions , some give advice on what they think the original poster should do, some posters have a softer touch.

I have been told on my threads what I should do. Doesn't mean I have to do it. Phrasing doesn't bother me. If it bothers you then maybe its something to look at.


Me: BW Him: WH
Married: 10 yrs
4 children: DDs 6&4; DSs 2& baby
2 Affairs - 2010 year long PA/EA, 2008 2 month online EA
Multiple D-Days

I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.


Posts: 4501 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Back home again in Indiana
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

20WrongsVs1...

When prominent members leave, you're right, there is a void for a time being...but just like anything else that door continues to revolve and others, like you, step up It's a very natural progression of an online community.

Newbie or veteran member...everyone holds value and adds service to SI


I'm really enjoying this thread everyone!! Thank you to all of you that have taken the time to share


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

LovesLaboursLost and isadora,

Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me. I am rape crisis counselor for both the state of California and New York. I help rape survivors through the process of a hospital visit and I also help man a helpline. In our training we spend a lot of time talking about keeping our own bias and judgements out of our responses. I hear judgement from doctors/police ALL the freaking time. They all think they KNOW what the best advice/path is but often they don't. I apply those principal here. Listen first, think about what is going to productively get through to a person, respect someone who isn't ready to x or y and keep your own issues out of it.

I hope that explains where I am coming from. There are times when I'm dealing with certain clients (domestic abuse victims are a good example) that I don't agree with their choices but me yelling/berating or giving them "tough love" at a point they aren't willing to hear is neither productive or helpful to the process. Sometimes you have to watch people make mistakes and not support them but to be a voice of reason at the bottom.

PS: And I do ignore the advice that isn't helpful and take the parts that are good.

[This message edited by smez at 1:28 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

smez, why should an individual have to edit, censor, or change the way they speak just to appease you? Who says your way is the only right way? Lay off the presentation factor and look at the message. Because everyone is speaking the same message.

If you're from the heart of Cali, do you go to Boston and tell the whole town on megaphone that they need to find a speech therapist to work on their whack accent? No. Does a Georgian go to Canada and tell them they cain't tawlk prawper Englesh? No. Does a Brit come to Kentucky and bash the country folk because Dahling, you are a lowly peasant and therefore cannot possibly know of which you speak? No.

We're all different. Sure we all have different accents and quirks about our speech patterns. Bottom line, it's the same dang language.

You SHOULD...isn't the same as Have you thought about x.

You SHOULDN'T do x isn't the same as How is x helping you forward...

You NEED to do x...


Here's a fun little exercise. When you see "You should" and it grates your nerves, why don't you mentally add in the "Have you thought about"?

Problem solved.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6058 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

LOL...I live abroad so I have an "accent" to everyone. Funny how assumptions work.

I'm not telling anyone how what advice they should give...Give away. Understand that if you can't EFFECTIVELY communicate that message, you are as good as shouting in the wind.

I'm am amused that everyone is up in arms that I suggested that you keep saying your message...just maybe do it a little politer.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 1:47 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

The old adage - don't shoot the messenger - seems to apply here.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciling


Posts: 1329 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

smez...

For someone that is a counselor, you sure seem to like to argue alot

I'm not reading that anyone is 'up in arms' about your message, I think you've conveyed it just fine


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 196510 | Registered: May 2002
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

smez, you seem to see the problem and the solution. But nobody is going to change for you. So why can't you just mentally apply the fix in your mind and be done with it? Why make broad statements that everyone should be nicer or more polite? Cause while you want sunshine and flowers, someone in the corner needs a brick upside the head. Cause it's the only way it'll send a message.

I'm a big mouth. I have heard allllllll my life to lower the volume, shut up, "Are you deaf or something?!". Even when I think I'm quite, someone in the family is still whining about how loud I am.

But you know know what? That's who I am and how I was wired. I cannot change that about me. So they can accept that I'm noisy, or butt out.

Same applies here. Deal with the advice. Read between the lines you deem "impolite" and move on.

JMHO YMMV

[This message edited by Aubrie at 1:53 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6058 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
isadora
Member
Member # 29130
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Even if we all exercise proper decorum and politeness, I would hazard to guess that some posters will claim they are being attacked because they don't want to hear the message

When I first started posting, I asked when do I come first. I was struggling with the daily realizations that WH was always choosing OW. I wanted validation. Didn't get it. I was told it stops when you say it does. Was it what I wanted to hear? No but it was what I needed to hear. Took me awhile to understand that.

[This message edited by isadora at 1:58 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me: BW Him: WH
Married: 10 yrs
4 children: DDs 6&4; DSs 2& baby
2 Affairs - 2010 year long PA/EA, 2008 2 month online EA
Multiple D-Days

I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.


Posts: 4501 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Back home again in Indiana
AdamsApple
New Member
Member # 39262
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

smez,

You seem to contradict yourself. You say;

There is no single path to healing..There is not particular timeline or path to healing. No everyone has the same issues and not ever solution that worked for you is appropriate for someone else.

Then you proceed to tell some that they should to be more polite and ask more questions. Just because you respond to a certain style, doesn't mean that everyone does. You said yourself that "there is no single path to healing." So why do you want to change or inhibit other's path to healing?

..and if people took the time to actually stop, take a breathe, remember where this person is and then approach them...they might get a lot more success.

This seems very presumptuous and condescending. How do you know people aren't doing these things? Because they give advice differently than you would?

And lastly, I find it curious that you draw a parallel between how rape victims should be treated and how waywards should treat each other in an infidelity forum. Do you feel, as a wayward, that you are the victim here?


Posts: 34 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Smez, anyone with half a brain would advocate your approach with dealing with rape victims.

Would you however use the same approach with the rapist?


Do you feel, as a wayward, that you are the victim here?

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ needs some serious pondering on your part.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 364 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 4:19 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Even if we all exercise proper decorum and politeness, I would hazard to guess that some posters will claim they are being attacked because they don't want to hear the message.

So true! This can apply to every type of member we have. I'm vehemently in agreement with this, I think due in large part to realizing that I'm totally guilty of this from time to time. Oh man.


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16435 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 4:20 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Would you however use the same approach with the rapist?
I think this is an important distinction. The WS comes here as the perpetrator of the crime of infidelity, first and foremost. So, at least at first (and longer if the fog persists) all the attention is paid to the infidelity specifically. However, I have never seen a WS who wanted to open and honestly discuss FOO issues, or CSAB, or anything else, be shut down and shouted down, provided the issue was not brought up as an excuse in the context of the crime as infidelity.

Meaning, the wayward forum is about (in my observation, anyway) being a wayward spouse first and foremost, and discussing all the other stuff second. So when a WS strolls in saying "I know my BS had nothing to do with my affair..." and then jumps straight into marriage problems A, B, and C, some of the wayward vets redirect their focus...some newbies are more receptive than others, and some display significant pushback, to which the vets respond accordingly.

I read the other thread that was discussed upthread, and that person had a ONS previously, and then an online EA, and refused to tell her husband about either, assuming I'm not mistaken.

Hell, you can lurk here for one hour and be able to know that refusing to tell your BS about your affair(s) is going to be a non-starter for most people, resulting in a flurry of 2x4s at the very least. I mean, honesty with your spouse is the bare minimum for living in a healthy marriage, and if newbies can't (or refuse) to even meet that low, low bar for entry into a serious discussion with most everyone here, I don't know how they would expect to move forward with seeking out help here, you know? That's not saying that they shouldn't stick around, because they should, because maybe some of it will absorb eventually....but I don't know how a person could expect to go against the advice of nearly all of a forum of their peers and not get some pushback, you know?


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Would you however use the same approach with the rapist?

Depends on the goal. One should use the same approach with the rapist if empathy and understanding is the goal.


Posts: 333 | Registered: Nov 2010
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

One should use the same approach with the rapist if empathy and understanding is the goal.

While ever my arse points to the ground I for one, will never empathise with a rapist. They don't deserve it. Any empathy should be reserved for the victim.
Does a rapist deserve help in correcting their abberant behaviour, of course.
But empathy, no way.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 364 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
cdnmommy
Member
Member # 30182
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Understand that if you can't EFFECTIVELY communicate that message, you are as good as shouting in the wind.

But what is effective for one person is not necessarily so for another. I have seen posters have their asses handed to them and respond that they were grateful for the blunt delivery.


Me: BW
DDay: Oct 2010 + 6 weeks false R
2.5 (+?) year A with married coworker/my "friend"
1 great kid.
Reconciling and healing

Posts: 1725 | Registered: Nov 2010
HUFI-PUFI
Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Slight T/J

Isadora - Why is phrasing so important?

Smez - Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me.

At a certain level, I agree with Smez that phrasing is important.

Quite often, we are guilty of assuming that the language we speak is the same language that others hear. In fact, in the study of linguistics, itís apparent that language is elastic and its structure and meaning relies on a complex web of social convention and learning. When I studied labour law, one of the earliest lessons was to learn and understand the difference between the words should, could, must, shall etc. as they all have very specific definitions of duty and responsibility even though in day to day speech, most people use them interchangeably.

Words can be used to be very precise and exact and the same words can be used to express only generalities.

Everyone understands that the statement of can you pass the salt during a dinner conversation is not really a question of ability (have you the physical capacity to lift and move the salt shaker) but in fact, in normal conversation, everyone understands that itís the same as using more proper statement of would you please pass the salt to me.

Maybe at one time, teachers would fuss over the misuse of that phrase but IRL, nobody really worries about things like that in their day to day talks unless of course, youíre a lawyer or linguist. LOL

However, depending on who you talk to and their very unique and particular relationship to language, you will find that syntax, grammar and phrasing will make a world a difference in communicating ideas or information. In fact, depending on the complexity of the information being communicated, the misuse of language, grammar etc. will either make or break the effectiveness of the communication.

Same words, totally different meaning.

End of T/J

HUFI

[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 5:54 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3226 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
isadora
Member
Member # 29130
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I love writing. I love it when words flow together and create the perfect phrase or statement that expresses my meaning perfectly. That being said even my well crafted statement eludes or offends the reader because the reader doesn't want to hear what I am saying. I could have been blunt and rude and my words would have the same effect if I would have been polite and phrased so as to not offend.


Me: BW Him: WH
Married: 10 yrs
4 children: DDs 6&4; DSs 2& baby
2 Affairs - 2010 year long PA/EA, 2008 2 month online EA
Multiple D-Days

I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.


Posts: 4501 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Back home again in Indiana
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

When I was in school to be a counselor, emphasis on verbiage was a large part of training. However this is the Internet where it is nowhere near the same as sitting with a person IRL and things tend to not translate well. The messages given in this forum are so non judgy and are so full of care it's wonderful.

Demanding to mince words sounds like another deflection tactic sometimes. You're not speaking my language so you're attacking or bullying me in an ignorant way.

I also feel working with sensitive populations of people do not make you more knowledgeable or less deserving of criticism. I could be wrong but throwing out working with rape victims is an attempt at making posters retreat.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 347 | Registered: Aug 2012
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

"Grow the fuck up"
"Stop acting like a 7th grader"
"A little maturity, please"

^^ basically the same request phrased 3 different ways.

IMHO, all are judgments (labeling as immature); though some are easier on the ears.

Can I-- in my mind-- rephrase "grow the fuck up" to "a little maturity, please"? ... sure I can ... as soon as you quit acting like a 7th grader.

<tongue-in-cheek>


Posts: 333 | Registered: Nov 2010
Kelany
Member
Member # 34755
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I'm just saying, grandpa was tasty...


BS - Me
SA/FWH Him
DDay 1 - Jul 11
DDay 2 - Jul 12
R Dec 12

Former 80s Icon wishful thinking


Posts: 2031 | Registered: Feb 2012
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 6:34 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Sorry , this may come out wrong,

I had a runin with my BH yesterday, He posted a comment in FB and I took offense to it as to how it came across, we've had this discussion before, both ways. I will say something or as he did type something, and it was read heard wrong.

I think sometimes that's how some of we may type does. SOMETIMES. Most of the time. I think its our own defenses that cause the response. I try to even say to my self "it might have better , instead of I should have done...." They really do give you a different thinking directions.


However. I am really surprised that once again we have so many pages discussing how any of us are treated on the WS forum. The only words should be thanks for having this page. Not discussing the sementics of how a newbie decides to leave because THEIR not ready to face the truths.

. I think the last time a thread was started it went on forever. Sorry to all you moderators and guides.

I am just thank ful for the care the advice the support and the 2x4's

Now I'm headed back into the forum to see who I can practice my wording on. Sorry had to say it lol


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 387 | Registered: Apr 2013
foundoutlater
Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 6:42 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I've been in this forum for over 10 years and in the last 2 months the influx of new WS's has been great...truly!

Well the cynical mind I have read that and had to remember where I was (SI) and who wrote it (DS). I am glad those who need it are coming here. Sad why they are here (as I know you are). Guess thatís the same way to feel about a friend in the hospital.

Iíve seen people ďattackedĒ here. Sometimes I would take a softer approach but thatís me. And usually I think the ďattackedĒ is nail on the head stuff. Itís not just in WS either. I think itís not a bad idea to try and remember everyone is different and we all respond to different approaches. Like I did when reading what DS started this with, remember there is a real person on the other end of that statement and trying to understand who they are/where there at is pretty useful stuff if we are trying to communicate. Thatís as applicable to the newbie as it is the vet IMO. I donít think the newbieís necessarily think about that. The mods are pretty fair IMO and I think they help people out when the responses are not helping. Sometimes they just gotta ask. Iíve found them pretty receptive to PMís.

Nothing is perfect. In some ways it is better that way. Iíve disagreed with the Mods decisions at times, but itís not my job to juggle the needs of the many. So I get to disagree, I just donít get to be disrespectful. There are a few vets that are gone that I sorely miss. I hated it when it happened. Wish they could have behaved themselves in public so they could still be here.

BTW SamathaBaker Ė do you like beef jerky? Ė the old stuff is kind of tough Ė just sayiní

[This message edited by foundoutlater at 6:45 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Your beliefs donít make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1109 | Registered: Jul 2011
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 6:44 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

OK, this thread has taken a million twists and turns.

I'm only going to comment on one thing, and that is that I would NOT be surprised to find that DS and MH are the true "owners" of the internet.


Posts: 11403 | Registered: Mar 2008
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 6:59 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

*I, like DS, will be making liberal use of the impersonal 'you.'*

Here is the problem to me:

It's implicit that WS come to this site seeking guidance, yeah? I think that's safe to assume.

So, complaining that said guidance wasn't provided in a 'nice' enough manner is like saying that you're not going to use that drill that you received for Christmas and *really* needed...because the box and/or wrapping paper wasn't *shiny* enough. It's missing the point of what's being offered.

I will wholeheartedly agree that language is ridiculously important. I am a reader, and I enjoy writing and language in all it's forms and nuances...but this is not a creative writing circle, KWIM? We're not workshopping our drafts around to the group to be dissected for style points and creativity.

If, in life, you fail (or refuse; choose your own adventure) to accept the meaning and spirit behind what is being said in favor of the wrapping that it's enveloped in....then you might as well grab a Capri Sun and some orange slices and hit the sidelines, 'cuz it's going to be a loooooooong fķtbol game (of life) for you.

I'd advocate this approach for the new WS poster who doesn't like the tone of the advice: just deal with it and accept it. I don't mean that in a snarky way either, like the preceding paragraph. I mean accept it in the same way that the WS has to choke down other parts of the shit sandwich of infidelity, like being checked-up on, or not trusted, or attending IC and/or reading...consider it a cool, new coping mechanism with which to go out and tackle the world and interpret new language and experiences. Give it a try for a little bit; if you don't like it, you can always go back.

ETA: This doesn't just apply to WS. I know a ton of BH/BW and other people in life who could afford a paradigm shift as well.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 7:02 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
NaiveAgain
Member
Member # 20849
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Yes, I can tell you why it annoys me rather than bothers me. I am rape crisis counselor for both the state of California and New York. I help rape survivors through the process of a hospital visit and I also help man a helpline. In our training we spend a lot of time talking about keeping our own bias and judgements out of our responses. I hear judgement from doctors/police ALL the freaking time. They all think they KNOW what the best advice/path is but often they don't. I apply those principal here. Listen first, think about what is going to productively get through to a person, respect someone who isn't ready to x or y and keep your own issues out of it.
That is great. I am sure you have great advice and you can deliver it in your own style and I'm sure it will help many others.

I'm in school for counseling and have done a bit on my own so far also. And what I understand is that this is not a site for professional counseling for your issues. This is a site for regular people who may or may not be trained in communication. There is tremendous diversity on this site and what works for one person may not work for another. So isn't it wonderful that there are so many different ways and communication styles that each member can add to the different threads so there is a greater chance that at least ONE of them will be something that the poster can draw from?

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 7:23 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Original WS D-Day July 10, 2008. Kept lying, he is gone.
New WS (2 EA's, no PA) 12-3-13
If you don't like where you are, then change it. You are not a tree.

Posts: 15108 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Ohio
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 7:31 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I will say from personal experience that an ex friend (see the word ex?) was pissed at me when I told her what I thought about her seeing a married man. She thought I'd side with her because the wife was some evil mom and wife yet I refused. I was an insensitive, immature bitch in her eyes.

The BS hired a PI and oh how wonderful it was to show the evidence. The OM dumped her to go back to his BW and threw her under the bus. Their relationship was built on lies and smoke. Nothing special. Fantasy gone. The BW divorced him due to the lies and got lots of money and assets in the divorce due to the PI's evidence of cheating. Good for her!

Listen to the people here. Their words are worth the weight in gold.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 347 | Registered: Aug 2012
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

NaiveAgain,

I think you make a really great point and that it sums it up perfectly .


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 36635 | Registered: Sep 2007
knight
Member
Member # 36859
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I too would like to express thanks to the mods and the guides and everyone here who honestly try to help both the BSes and WSes. I do not post often as most know but I read daily especially in general, wayward and in reconciliation.

If not for the wayward form I would be D'd or living in the pre-d-day hell of hurting and not knowing why. KBFF found this site and here found the courage, support and knowledge she needed to tell me of her affair and to become a new beautiful person inside.

But it was not easy. I don't know about the rest of you (generalized ) but when I'm hurting or mad I'm very narrow minded and short sighted. I never cuss but sometimes the only thing that gets through is

Grow the fuck up
If not for many 2x4's KBFF would still have her blinders on. I heard her "ouches" many times.

I am an advocate of respectful language but I also believe in the plain truth and sometimes I think the only way to reach someone in the fog is through blunt tough love. It has worked for KBFF and I am forever grateful.


BH 40s
fWW (her) 40s
D-day Aug 2012
M 16
kids - 3 beautiful ones, DD22, DD14, DS10

Always be yourself, but always be your better self. - Karl G. Maeser
- - - - - - -
Dyslexic...please ignore my spelling.


Posts: 57 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Hell
Mrs Panda
Member
Member # 27303
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I was an NCAA Division I athlete in college. I quickly learned what it means to "suck it up" and "what doesn't kill you make you stronger." Half the girls quit my freshman year.

There is no doubt in my mind that the tough love I got from my coach was critical to my success. Politely telling me to try harder and to please give it 110% would not do it. But when coach yells at you "is that all you've got!?" "You gonna quit!?" Yeah, that's when I find my fight and last bit of strength.

I firmly believe I wouldn't be here (recovered) if I hadn't learned how to fight to the end and not to throw in the towel.

I realize not everyone responds to the coach shouting in their ear. But some do and that's who I can help.

[This message edited by Mrs Panda at 9:05 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me-41 FWW Him-45BH
M 13years. Reconciled.
DDay#1 Nov 2008 (OM2)
DDay#2 Aug 2009 (Confessed to OM 2001)
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand." -Kurt Vonnegut

Posts: 1971 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: The SouthEast
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 9:21 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

As to coaching styles, I'm a huge John Wooden fan.

Posts: 333 | Registered: Nov 2010
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 9:31 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

I'm a huge John Wooden fan.

Then I'm sure you'll love.

"Whatever you do in life, surround yourself with smart people who'll argue with you."

"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be."

John Wooden


[This message edited by SlowUptake at 9:39 PM, February 8th (Saturday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 364 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Yes, I enjoy both of those quotes!

Posts: 333 | Registered: Nov 2010
Steppenwolf
Member
Member # 38140
Default  Posted: 10:18 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

When that craziness in October (that ended in some people leaving) was unraveling, I remember posting a comment in one if UO's thread stating that I almost felt like I was being attacked. I didn't really think anything of that statement until I got a couple of PMs. DS asked me to elaborate a bit and I realized that I had chosen less than perfect words to describe what I was feeling. It's sometimes hard to convey sentiment on these threads without the help of non-verbal communication.

On this or other forums, words are just words. Exaggeration for effect can be lost in translation. Holden Caulfield is bored to death, so should we hold a funeral? I think it's important to really consider what you post and how it may be interpreted. Nowadays, I try to stay on point when posting, rather than using hyperbolic verbiage to try to force a point. Not sure I'm successful, but I'm mindful.

Also, thank you for this WS forum and the safety here. You guys are the best.


Me: WS- 30s
Her: BS- 30s RockyMtn



Posts: 126 | Registered: Jan 2013
Fallen
Member
Member # 4313
Default  Posted: 11:54 PM, February 8th (Saturday)

Late to the discussion, but as an old timer I'd like to provide some info to you about how it was when I came here. When I joined SI almost 10 years ago, Wayward was not a protected forum. NOT PROTECTED. That meant that WSes who came here for help took a beating from all sides. That's what it was like when I got here. It was freaking HARD. Recovery is hard in the best of circumstances, but it was just difficult to hear the help being offered through the hurtful noise.

DS and MH implemented changes over the following year or so to prevent attacks on the WSes who came to SI to work on themselves. Something interesting began to happen then. WSes who were trying to help each other were frequently shouted down by hurting and angry BSes before. After the forum was protected and more heavily moderated, WSes filled that "get a grip" void. I know my posting style was sometimes blunt and sometimes not. As a FWS, it didn't come from a place of judgment or feeling superior. It came from not wanting another hurting person to make the same wrong and painful choices I did.

That's the thing... we don't say this stuff to be mean or to judge. We say it because we know your pain and we hurt for you. I said it because I don't want another soul to be as stupid as I was. I desperately wanted you to GET IT so you could get on with your healing.

Wishing peace and healing for all of you- and saying thanks once again to DS and MH for being such a huge part of my recovery. Love you guys!


You can't heal what you won't feel.

"There would be no grand absolution, only forgiveness meted out in these precious sips. It would well up from his heart in spoonfuls, and he would feed it to me. And it would be enough."


Posts: 23477 | Registered: May 2004
chetristezza
New Member
Member # 42233
Default  Posted: 1:04 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

"Grow the fuck up" . I just finally shared this site with my husband and he read this thread and said, no thanks. Don't blame him. I was asked not to post here because I was too raw and I was actually supportive. I'm now reading people compared to rapists. I was raped. My husband is not a rapist. I've read a few posts that calmly ask why all the hyperbole and suggesting it may be for other motives and those people were shredded. Why? It's a very legitimate point. There are several posters I read here that just scream validation. The over the top condescension. That's not tough love. That's not hard truth. That's LOOK AT MEEEEE. Let me post several threads in case you missed me. The post that may have saved my marriage was understated truth from hard experience. No self aggrandizing. No look at me. Just simple I needed to fix myself and I'm doing that. As someone said. Yelling in the wind does nothing. You lose far more than you'll ever reach and about the most you end up with is a sychophantic club. Sounds pretty damn close to the reason many join here. Sad.

Posts: 40 | Registered: Jan 2014
smez
Member
Member # 41882
Default  Posted: 1:30 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

I go to dinner and come back to this. :)

1. Rape victims...I was making an analogy about my experiences in communicating. I agree that this isn't a professional therapy site. And for those that think I was deflecting...I wasn't, I was trying to explain where I was coming from.

2. No one is arguing against the content. The content is good. I like the content.

I occasionally think the style that the content is delivered in could be improved upon. That is all.

THE STYLE. No one is stopping you from being rude but don't grasp your pearls and drag out the "You just don't like what I am saying" defense when you get called out on it.


Me: 36
BS: 37

Married 8 years.
1 Child
DDay: March 2012


Posts: 72 | Registered: Jan 2014
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:30 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

Let me post several threads in case you missed me.

I'd be interested to see the posts in which "shredding" takes place. I'm here volunteering as often as I can, and I must have just missed those.

That's the thing... we don't say this stuff to be mean or to judge. We say it because we know your pain and we hurt for you. I said it because I don't want another soul to be as stupid as I was. I desperately wanted you to GET IT so you could get on with your healing.

I feel like I've said this in just about every one of these off-angle discussions. 99.9% of the members aren't here looking for puppies to kick. They messed up, got help, and want to pass it along. Whether it's a FWS who saw the light of day, or a BA who found the strength to cut their codependent ties and make their own path. The harshness, the "judgment" that so many perceive as nasty is in truth just projection from someone who is trying to help you. Like Fallen said, they're begging you not to make the same mistakes that you did. Maybe they don't GET you. Maybe they don't know what you go through day in and day out and all the subtle differences that make your situation unique. That's why, you may recall, most of these sycophantic Kool-Aid drinking assholes who spend time away from their families and leisure activities to type words online to others in pain keep saying over and over, "TAKE WHAT YOU NEED. LEAVE THE REST."


ETA: I realize my tone is a bit ironic here. I'll admit, my feelings are hurt at being called a sycophant, and I know too many good souls here who donate their time to keep guns out of people's mouths. Despite some hurtful things being said here, I'm still glad for the thread. Taking what I need. Leaving the rest.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 1:38 AM, February 9th (Sunday)]


We are what we repeatedly do, excellence, then is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle

Posts: 16435 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
chetristezza
New Member
Member # 42233
Default  Posted: 1:41 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

"I'd be interested to see the posts in which "shredding" takes place. ". This thread. The only hugs I've seen are the "you're so great". The few members that were not in line were certainly not supported or even debated.

The fact you made my post an attack on you and went off the rails with it is odd. Why personalize? I've read a phrase on here very often stated. If something makes you angry probably should look at it. Good suggestion. Here's another one. Just calm down. I'm leaving and you can go back to being safe. Relax.


Posts: 40 | Registered: Jan 2014
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 2:01 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

I'm leaving and you can go back to being safe. Relax.

Ummm, did I just read of a BS leaving because she feels we WSs are being nasty to each other?

OK own up, who divided by zero?
Armageddon is upon us.
Ragnorok is here.
Chaos will now reign.

in other news:

The few members that were not in line were certainly not supported or even debated.

Personally I feel no need to support someone during a debate, who has an opposing opinion to mine, that would be ludicrous.
I reserve the right to debate the logic of their opinion while respecting their right to have it.
Also I thought we were debating

ETA: Clarification of 'opinions' and debating.
verb: debate; 3rd person present: debates; past tense: debated; past participle: debated; gerund or present participle: debating

1.
argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
"MPs debated the issue in the Commons"
synonyms: discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about, thrash out, argue, argue about, argue the pros and cons of, dispute, wrangle over, bandy words concerning, contend over, contest, controvert, moot;

[This message edited by SlowUptake at 7:56 AM, February 9th (Sunday)]


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 364 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
WarpSpeed
Member
Member # 32051
Default  Posted: 7:28 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

I'm a BS and really enjoy posting in the wayward forum because there is something uplifting for me to see people trying to heal themselves, their BS and their marriage. As a BS, I feel an obligation to self moderate my tone when posting in this forum. There are times I want to say wake the F up, but I take a less pointed approach because I think there are plenty of waywards tossing the needed 2 X 4's.

I'd like to take a stab at addressing this post by FacePunched because I think it is very important.

If, in life, you fail (or refuse; choose your own adventure) to accept the meaning and spirit behind what is being said in favor of the wrapping that it's enveloped in....then you might as well grab a Capri Sun and some orange slices and hit the sidelines, 'cuz it's going to be a loooooooong fķtbol game (of life) for you.

If any of you have read some Stephen Covey, you might be familiar with this visual.

We, as human beings, have much more success and get greater results when we focus on our circle of influence. If we work on things that we can actually influence, we not only find we get results, but we find that the circle of influence grows to encompass more of our area of concern.

For the purposes of this thread, our circle of influence is "the message". And our area of concern is "the delivery".

Folks are saying "focus on the message". Others are saying "deliver it more nicely". I'd suggest that the part the receiver of the message has influence over is what they choose to focus on. If you participate in this forum focusing on what you can influence, actually looking for the meaning in the message, you are likely to be more successful. You can be concerned about about how that message is delivered, but it is unproductive. It isn't where the leverage lies.

Best luck to all that are trying to heal. It's hard work.

[This message edited by WarpSpeed at 7:30 AM, February 9th (Sunday)]


Me: BS (51)
Her: fWW (50)
Married 26 years
Two sons in college
Empty closet and note on bed Jan 2010, She filed for D Mar 2010, D final May 2010, Actually had D-Day and found out why it all happened July 2010. Remarried on 23rd Anniv Aug 2010

Posts: 1489 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Dallas
isadora
Member
Member # 29130
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, February 9th (Sunday)

Now see I didn't think Jrazz went off the rails. Was she offended. Maybe. We're human. We are different and thank goodness. Debates would be boring if we all spoke or felt the same way.

When I am working (I am an HR manager) I have one tone. Its my job to be as impartial as possible.

On SI I offer my opinion, I don't get offended when a poster disagrees with me, I don't clutch my pearls and stomp off. I either continue to debate my point or I walk away. (I recognize when I am wasting my time because the OP won't hear me no matter what my tone or how many times I repeat myself).

In my sitch I do not get offended when a poster says I should do something. I am not wired that way. When I have been offered blunt advice I listened because it works for me. I might not have heard it otherwise.


Me: BW Him: WH
Married: 10 yrs
4 children: DDs 6&4; DSs 2& baby
2 Affairs - 2010 year long PA/EA, 2008 2 month online EA
Multiple D-Days

I can only control myself, no one else. I do not have that kind of power.


Posts: 4501 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Back home again in Indiana
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, February 9th (Sunday)

don''t grasp your pearls and drag out the "You just don''t like what I am saying" defense when you get called out on it.

OTOH, the "your message is good, but your delivery sucks" argument is completely valid.

the most you end up with is a sycophantic club

If adhering to SI tenets such as..."No matter how crappy your M was, cheating was wrong! Seriously, even for you, no matter how special or unique you think your sitch was, cheating was selfish and shitty."...is sycophantic? Pass the MF''ing Kool-Aid.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response thereís a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1045 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, February 9th (Sunday)

Another thing, too, which I heard today related to tone of message: there is vast difference between how a person says, "Pass me a beer!" while hanging with friends and an individual says "Pass me a scalpel!!!" in the emergency room.

The idea is the same: I require that thing (you have).

This is not your friends living room. We''re not kicking it. This is the ER. There''s been an accident, and your soul or marriage is at risk of death...and so the tone is urgent and frenzied, because the longer the injury goes untreated, the higher the risk of mortality.


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
HFSSC
Member
Member # 33338
Default  Posted: 7:21 AM, February 10th (Monday)

This is not your friends living room. We're not kicking it. This is the ER. There's been an accident, and your soul or marriage is at risk of death...and so the tone is urgent and frenzied, because the longer the injury goes untreated, the higher the risk of mortality.

Damn skippy, FacePunched.

Made the quote thread.


Me, 47
Him, 40 (JMSSC)
married 17 years. In R. We are making it. The past does not define who we are today.

Posts: 2659 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: South Carolina
time2grow
Member
Member # 35983
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, February 10th (Monday)

As a BS I have to say I'm thankful for the WS forum. It wasn't until after my life went to hell, and had been there for awhile, that I found SI. I don't recall were in my journey that I found SI but I do remember my bottom. My bottom in short, I trusted no one and I wanted nothing to do with women.

Perfect system? No. But you (general statement) can be damn sure we want the waywards who come here to feel safe and supported. Or at least learn the tools they need to heal and get through the shitstorm they created.

Today I can honestly agree with the forgoing quote and I'm glad the guides, mods and admins are here. It kept me in line when I first joined SI.

The benefit I get from the WS forum is realizing my own short comings and being able to face them. In challenging myself I have come to realize that I have no control over anything or anyone in my life. Its been a long journey but today I'm happy to say I have women in my life that I can call friends and know that is all they will ever be. I'm still not a trusting person but a little at a time Iím getting better.

I have not read all the threads in here but the ones I remember I am grateful to see the growth in. It gives me hope that no matter how messed up somebodyís life is, there is always the potential for growth and change. The ones that have chosen to work threw the crap, Excellent job keep going!!


Posts: 1719 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Missouri
Sal1995
Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, February 10th (Monday)

This is not your friends living room. We're not kicking it. This is the ER. There's been an accident, and your soul or marriage is at risk of death...and so the tone is urgent and frenzied, because the longer the injury goes untreated, the higher the risk of mortality.

Great stuff, FP. An affair is, objectively, bad behavior. Behavior that is just as destructive to the offender as to the victim, if not more so. Anyone who gives a rip about you would be highly motivated to help you avoid repeating the behavior that has put your marriage in crisis mode.

Complaining about the tone in which a helpful and loving message is delivered on an infidelity website makes about as much sense as complaining about the brusque attitude of the doctor who tells you that unless you immediately start taking medication to control your high blood pressure and bad cholesterol, you'll likely be dead within a year.

The doc is your friend. The medicine is your friend. It's the cigarettes, booze, and greasy food that are not your friends, even if they give you lots of warm-and-fuzzies the whole time they are killing you.

Is your AP your friend? Friends don't destroy friends' marriages. Friends don't assist friends in the destruction of a two-parent home, or commit acts that cause children to suffer. Friends don't make friends feel horrible about themselves.

Friends don't let friends continue to engage in destructive, hurtful behavior or to carry on with mindsets that make that behavior likely to be repeated.

From my perspective, I see a lot of friends on SI. There's a reason I and so many BS's are drawn to the wayward forum. It's not just morbid fascination - there are a lot of wise, caring people here. It gives us hope.

I sincerely hope those that feel threatened by the perceived tone on this site, particularly this forum, tough it out and give it a chance. Or find similar help delivered in a way that you find digestible. Because there's a lot at stake.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 9-10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciling


Posts: 1329 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, February 10th (Monday)

I am one of the newbs. I lurked for a couple of months before I felt safe enough to post. I read nearly every day, and now I post fairly regularly. I think I learn something about myself every time I commit something to writing.

NativeAgain summed up the way that I feel:

This is a site for regular people who may or may not be trained in communication. There is tremendous diversity on this site and what works for one person may not work for another. So isn't it wonderful that there are so many different ways and communication styles that each member can add to the different threads so there is a greater chance that at least ONE of them will be something that the poster can draw from?

It helps me immeasurably that this forum is diverse. I see people with DDays around mine that are making the same discoveries that I am. Then I see vets who give me perspective, remind me that I am not getting the whole picture yet. I read people who talk like my therapists, asking questions. I read others who are direct. They remind me that my actions can have a raw, emotional response. Some people say things in ten words that I need 50 to express. They are all part of the spectrum that I have to understand.

As a newbie, I do have to admit that the first time someone disagreed with something I did or said, it gnawed at me for a while. I know it's nothing personal. They are just trying to help in the best way that they know how. Maybe it was right, maybe wrong. It's still a valid thought or emotion that I am better off for considering.

Thanks for this forum. Personally, its a great tool to make me a better person.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 385 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, February 10th (Monday)

This is not your friends living room. We're not kicking it. This is the ER. There's been an accident, and your soul or marriage is at risk of death...and so the tone is urgent and frenzied, because the longer the injury goes untreated, the higher the risk of mortality.
*applause*!!!!!!


FWW - 40
I'm big on personal responsibility. Own your shit. ALL OF IT.

Posts: 5767 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 8:20 PM, February 10th (Monday)

^^^^^^ I''ll also agree with that, as a person whose worked in ER''s, on fire lines, and in other disaster situations. Really, I am a pretty nice person who tries to be soft-spoken. But if you''re standing in my way while I''m running a woman bleeding with a placenta previa and no fetal hearbeat into surgery, or if the martingale on the dolphin striker has parted and we now have people in the way of a potential falling mast, you are going to see a very narrowly focused, war-bitch from hell, moving your ass or walking over your head. In the nicest way possible, of course.

If you are going to the doctor for a yearly physical and you want to be real specific about male or female doctor, cheerful, young, old, quick, fatherly, then go for it. In the course of your health, its probably not going to matter much. If you have Stage 4 cancer and your prognosis is that you need immediate surgery or to pick out your casket, you better concentrate on finding the best darned surgeon that you can no matter what sex, nationality, personality, or other type that they are, and get down to the business of saving your life.

What I appreciate on this forum, is that there IS such a diverse group of people who can deliver the exact same message in a multitude of ways. If you stick with it, you will almost always find someone who can "talk your talk." You can find your own little sub-group for support and PMs, while learning from a whole host of folks with different life experiences and different ways of communicating their understanding. There''s a whole lot of knowledge here and I truly do believe that 99% of the people on this forum don''t wake up in the morning determined to drive new people away. As a BS, I actually find it reassuring that this forum IS here, and that people here care SO much about trying to support each other towards a path to healthy relationships. Frankly, some people need a 2x4 upside the head to get their attention. If that gets their attention, then great, you can get through in other ways/words. If not, then realistically they probably aren''t ready to face the truth. If they aren''t ready or open, then IMO best they leave as quickly as possible so as to not take up the precious time that all of the volunteers on this site are offering.

And now I''m going to sit back with a beer and leave you to figure out who the 1% might be.


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4586 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
StrongerOne
Member
Member # 36915
Default  Posted: 10:31 PM, February 10th (Monday)

I'm a BS, and I've been chastised by the mods, rightly so, when I whacked at a WS. I was might sanctimonious in my whacking, too. I think the mods try very hard to treat all fairly and to make sure all are following the guidelines.

Don't remember who called me out, now, but I'm glad for it because it helped me learn


DDay Feb 2011.
In R.

Posts: 841 | Registered: Sep 2012
Pentup
Member
Member # 20563
Default  Posted: 12:01 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

I can not help but think of one WS that so many of here tried to reach. She was in pain and her bs was abusing her on all fronts. WS and BS were here for her time and again trying many many ways of reaching her to let her know that what she had done did not define her nor sentence her to a life of abuse. I still think of her and pray that she is ok. But I can't help but think if she is, she can most likely thank this forum for recognizing, acknowledging, encouraging and not judging someone who was remorseful and In pain.

This forum used to irk me when I lurked. Then after some time had passed and I was not as raw, it helped me see how the WS can be in pain too. That as a BS I did not have carte blanc to be an a$$hole. I saw WS who helped each other and other BS. I saw respect and empathy. It made me look at my own issues and in a lot of ways has helped me be a better person than I would have been if I was only reading BS opinions that mirrored my own.

Thanks to all of you, really. And I mean that you in the personal sense, not the general you.


Me- BS
Him- FWS (I hope- F)

Posts: 6431 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Not Oz
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Good thread. I thank this place and it's people for helping me see me. And allowing me to get out of myself and my selfish ways and help others AS BEST AS I CAN.

If I don't like your tone or delivery or word choices? Tough effing tookies. You don't like mine? Sorry. Same answer.

This is an ANONYMOUS forum. If I can't handle an invisible stranger trying to help, or pants me, or whatever, then I'm doomed for epic failing out there in the flesh and bone world.

Thanks SI team. Thanks truth tellers, both gentle and blunt. To those who lurk or leave...SI will likely be here when you're ready.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
JustDesserts
Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

My first double post.

[This message edited by JustDesserts at 1:00 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
Clarrissa
Member
Member # 21886
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)

Been a while since I've posted but I just read through this thread.

I try not to come across as judgemental when I post to a newbie. Who am I to judge anyway? I f*cked up just as badly as they had. I have however gone off on a member. Fairly recently too. He'd had an A, his W doesn't know and he was questioning the wisdom of immediate, hard NC. The tone of his posts were straight out of the fog, even though his A was (supposedly) over for 7 years. It was quite clear that he thought he, his A and his AP are "special." After half a dozen of this type of post, I let loose. I apologized to the OP since this was a t/j of her thread and I let DS know what I'd done through PM. It's that type of post that I get "judgemental" on. Otherwise I'll be straight with the poster in a way that shows (I hpoe) that I know where they're coming from. Read it, heard it, used it, whatever.


BH Cee64D - 48
WW (me) - 49


All affairs are variations on a theme. No one has 'Beethoven's 5th' to everyone else's 'Chopsticks'.


Posts: 5860 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: A better place
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, February 13th (Thursday)

I would like this thread in the BS forum. When the WSs speak to each other, you all get to be very real. This is a very interesting thread :)


It's so easy to believe someone when they're telling you exactly what you want to hear.....

Posts: 1738 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Bump. Doesn't need to be forgotten.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6058 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Topic Posts: 104