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Reconciliation
User Topic: Anniversary and polygraph
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

We're approaching one year to d-day.

I have been thinking about WW's nine month A quite a bit.

She's quitting her job with OM in May and feeling pressure. Has been criticizing me a lot.

I discovered the A through a card she received and got the truth when I confronted OM -- her co-worker. She insisted they had just exchanged kisses. OM said they had sex more than 100 times, including in our home.

So, not having heard any bit of truth about the A directly from WW, I feel that I need a nugget of truth from her. I feel that having a nugget of truth would allow me to build on it. Right now, I feel that I have no base.

This morning in MC I asked WW to take a polygraph test. I had felt the same gut feeling that I felt during the nine-month A before. At that time I didn't know what I was feeling and attributed it to my own insecurities.

She flipped out. Accused me of living in the past, looking for reasons to feel pain and flat out said she won't take a polygraph test. She strongly denied having cheated before this A.

When I tried to explain the whole nugget of truth thing that I wrote above, she called me a "fucking idiot" repeatedly while the MC tried to calm her down.

Am I paranoid or is it natural that I'm now even more suspicious?


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

When I tried to explain the whole nugget of truth thing that I wrote above, she called me a "fucking idiot" repeatedly while the MC tried to calm her down.

Am I paranoid or is it natural that I'm now even more suspicious?

forget paranoia and suspicion, and insist that she address you respectfully and not with contempt.
Actually, the "fucking idiot" comment would be a dealbreaker for me.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

The conditions we face do not define us. They remind us of who we are and who we want to be.


Posts: 5251 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
lieshurt
Member
Member # 14003
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

My exwh used to react this way when he knew he was cornered and was about to be caught in some lie.


Walk away from anything or anyone who takes away your joy. Life is too short to put up with fools.

Posts: 13806 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Houston
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

FsM,

You are proposing a technique for her to prove that she is telling you/told you the truth. That she is no longer hiding truth from you, no longer lying to you. It speaks volumes that she reacted as she did, which I agree in and of itself is enough to be a deal breaker or at least step back from her and the M.

How can you rebuild a M with a person who is hiding significant truths from you, who is unable to be open and honest? How can you restore emotional intimacy with hidden lies?

I would require an apology, a timeline and a follow-up polygraph before I would be willing to consider anymore thoughts of staying/fixing the M with her. Until I got the apology and timeline I would 180, work on me, and set goals for separation and D.

ETA: I would also ask WW why she even considers trying to R with such a "Fucking Idiot"?

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:05 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4133 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)

I'm shocked. I thought we were 'getting better'

The name calling really hurts. Like you wrote above, LiesHurt, I'm scared that she reacted so strongly because she is cornered and feeling caught in a lie.

I just want to throw a tantrum and beat my head against the wall. I'm not going to do that, of course. I'm at work :)


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
thecosmogirl
Member
Member # 39707
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

My WH reacts violently to taking a polygraph. Says it's a huge wasye of money and they are inconclusive, blah, blah....Says I won't be happy even if the results show he is telling the truth and that I will think he faked it somehow.

I'm not stupid. I know exactly why he has such reactions.


Me: BS
Him: doesn't matter anymore...or does it...

Being very, very careful

D-day 14 June 2013


I'm smart, good looking and gosh darn it, people like me!


Posts: 167 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: trying to figure it out
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

At $500 the polygraph test is the equivalent to two joint therapy sessions and would give me enormous piece of mind.

I would at the very least know that the damage is contained to the one (long) affair.

I think that her refusal to take the test actually answers my question. She cheated before.

I don't know that for sure and now I don't know how not to think that.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

How did the therapist react?

Frankly, my first reaction - well, second, and if I documented the 1st one, I'd violate guidelines - is to out the A at work (in the hope of ending om's and her jobs quickly), throw W's property out of my dwelling place, grab my half of the M assets, and go for D as quickly as possible.

But I'm really curious about the therapist's response....

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:52 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10345 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

The therapist was quiet about the polygraph. If I read her expression correctly, I think the therapist actually felt the pain and tension in the room.

To me at least, the refusal suggested an earlier A and I think that went through the therapist's mind, too. Again, just my impressions.

WW then went on her tirade and the therapist kept asking her to calm down and said that what she was saying wasn't helping. The therapist said the name calling is hurtful and that she didn't want it in her office and that we shouldn't call each other names at home either (we don't do it).

It was close to the end of the session. We both went quiet. The therapist asked my WW what was going through her mind.

WW answered that she feels she learned a lot about herself over the last year and that she's glad she's not in that place anymore.

Then the therapist asked me what was going through my mind. I answered that I was stuck thinking that WW cheated before.

WW went ballistic again accusing me of living in the past, being a pessimist, not wanting to heal, not being able to move forward by choice, disengaging from the world, not understanding how the world works and a whole lot more that was hard to register.

Again, it took a while for the therapist to calm her down.

We have a week-long vacation pre-booked leaving this Sunday. The therapist asked how we think we're going to handle it.

I don't know...


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
Tred
Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Mate,

Your wife's reaction is full of red flags (which I'm sure you can tell). Her outburst and refusal speaks volumes.


Married: 17 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 4002 | Registered: Dec 2011
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Ask yourself after a year of this hell, why you would be willing to settle for a "nugget of truth." I mean. Really?

Honey, it is time to roll back the carpet.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6549 | Registered: Jan 2011
TennisTC
Member
Member # 41330
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

I totally agree with Tred and others.

People who have nothing to hide hide nothing. She's refusing the polygraph because it will reveal her ongoing deception, either in regards to a prior A or a continuation of the current A underground.

Also, the outbursts are extremely telling. Why is she "flipping out" and ranting and raving like an overgrown toddler having a tantrum? Because she wanted to derail all conversation about prior A's. When the therapist has to spend your session trying to calm your WW down it doesn't leave much time to discuss your legitimate concerns. Knowing that she can't rationally discuss/defend her staunch refusal for the poly, your WW chose to throw a tantrum to pass the time in your session instead.


Me: BW Him: WH (Both early 30's)
Married 11 years with a DD7
DDay: 2-24-13
R'ing

Posts: 167 | Registered: Nov 2013
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Not OK. As my boys say - Epic Fail.

Frankly, I don't think she gets it. My two cent:

- react calmly. Slowly and deliberately invoke the 180.

- secure as many assets as you can. protect yourself and prepare for D.

- Turn away from her. Don't be mean just tell her that you don't want to be with someone who behaves so irrationally when asked a legitimate question.

- If you are not done, tell her that. Tell her if she really gets help (SI, IC, reading books, etc) then you will consider continuing the M.

- Dig into you - without her. Remember back to who you were before you met her. If that's no good find some new things to do and get busy doing them.

Detach. Detach.

Take care...



Posts: 1428 | Registered: Jan 2012
lieshurt
Member
Member # 14003
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Outbursts like that are meant to intimidate you and get you to back down. As a BS, you don't want to ripple the waters, so you do just that. In this case, you know her tantrum is telling you what you needed to know. She's still lying.


Walk away from anything or anyone who takes away your joy. Life is too short to put up with fools.

Posts: 13806 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Houston
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

We have a week-long vacation pre-booked leaving this Sunday.

I would not be able to enjoy a vacation with a person who referred to me as a fucking idiot and was willing to hide truth from me. I would prefer to be out the money and do something productive and away from her with the time than to be out the money and HAVE to spend time with her after that.

I would also remove the request/requirement that she quit her job. In my thinking, her quitting her job (months later) is not enough to make up for continued lying, name calling and disrespect. I would let her know that if she wants to change jobs on her own that is fine, but that you cannot remain with a person who lies to you and considers you a fucking idiot. A person who has no empathy for what she did to your M. A person who says she will not tell you about the past, that you should trust her that she is not that person anymore.

180, schedule some IC for you, explore your options and wait to see if she finds remorse and empathy. Signs that she really wants to fix herself, and then the M with you will be a complete timeline with willingness to do a polygraph to confirm, apologies for how she berated you, and scheduled IC for her to really understand what her issues are.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4133 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Tearsoflove
Member
Member # 8271
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Any time my husband has ever gotten that defensive and gone on the attack to defend himself, he was lying.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 1:45 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]


"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." ~Homer Simpson


Posts: 4144 | Registered: Sep 2005
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

FeelingsoMuch,

Over this last year, has your WW agreed with or confirmed the 100x having sex with OM in your house, his house, etc, or is she still insisting just kisses?

Do you know what your WW has learned about herself in the last year? Do you know what place she was in a year ago and how does that compare to where she is now?

Has she ever read and discussed with you books like Not Just Friends by Glass and Sexual Detours by Hines?


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4133 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

My opinion: Anger is a mask for fear. If this was my wife, her telling me the truth to own it would be more important than me just knowing it.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 777 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

I'm in IC and have been working on (healthy) detachment.

As far as considering D and preparing for it, there's not much to lose/gain. We don't have children.

I care a lot about WW and I'm feeling like we're hitting a point where R is either going to take off or crash.

I regret booking that vacation and at the same time look at it as something that could keep us attempting R a little while longer, which is never a bad thing.

My fears about a previous A will continue. Even my therapist says WW has a lot of problems and is full of fear. He says I need to "take in" that she's quitting her job.

I just don't know how much longer I can keep going like this. There's not a lot of room for me to breathe before WW gets super needy/critical.

I pick her up for our MC appointments. I was four minutes late today and she turned that into a big deal. We were still early for the appointment in the end and we have never been late despite having the weekly appointment for a year. Yet, we walk in and WW tells the therapist that I'm always late.

Therapist says she's deflecting and this happens week in, week out.

My therapist asked me to read a book on borderline personalities. I did. WW is not nearly that bad, but does react to the same sort of things.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
IHeartSuffering
New Member
Member # 42106
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Sorry to hear the struggle you have.

Respectfully, I'd suggest you aren't aren't really in R, except for the fact that she is currently not cheating.

I've been there.

During the 2.5+ years of separations/trying to get back together, I went through all this kind of crap. Pining a lot of hope on MC as a way to dislodge the truth. It didn't work and created a bunch of needless suffering and effort.

What did work is I finally got to the point where I was done. We were separated at the time and she came to me asking to get back together. I said no. I said I didn't believe she'd changed and I wasn't putting myself thru it again.

That's what broke the dam. I eventually relented and finally got all my questions answered, got a written timeline, and finally got closure to the whole mess. Only then did we really start to R.

You can't nice your way out of this. The gap between "we just kissed" and "sex 100x including in your home" is just far too wide.

[This message edited by IHeartSuffering at 4:07 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]


Me: BH
Reconciled in Mar 2010
4 kids
DDay #1: Sept 6, 2007
So many DDays and false R's.
2 affairs, 2 lengthy separations

Posts: 18 | Registered: Jan 2014
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

Since the OM talked, WW admitted to what they did, how often, etc. The issue I have is that she only owned up to her actions after getting caught.

That leaves me asking if there's more she's not telling me because she hasn't been caught.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
Brandon808
Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

WW went ballistic again accusing me of living in the past, being a pessimist, not wanting to heal, not being able to move forward by choice, disengaging from the world, not understanding how the world works and a whole lot more that was hard to register.
Not....understanding...how...the...world...works???
What the actual f***???

Her leaving her job is at least one thing indicating she wants R. Everything else she''s doing shows she a lack of remorse.

If my WW had called me a f*cking idiot I might have been inclined to say "Yeah, of course I''m a f*cking idiot. I''m trying to R with a woman who cheated on me and lied to me. So no, that doesn''t sound very f*cking smart, now does it?"


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 4000 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)

I do want to say that kind of thing ^^^^

I don't because the therapists say it doesn't help and I'm trying to do things that are positive and not derail the process even if WW isn't doing them.

I know -- it sounds backwards and I would love to vent that way.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)

FeelingSoMuch,

That leaves me asking if there's more she's not telling me because she hasn't been caught.

I know that there are things FWW has not told me, and I suspect a few more things that may be true. I got TT for 6-7 months. Then after pushing from me and the IC/MC she gave me a 4 page timeline that greatly expanded the depth and scope of her As. This timeline had a lot of new information, things I would never have guessed to ask, and things I would not/could not have found out on my own. Still, I know that it was not complete. In some ways it could never be complete, because FWW had led her whole life flirting with men to get attention and affirmation. There is no way she would remember all the inappropriate statements, flirting, and touching. Other things I know would push her over the edge in shame, and I believe that she is in denial.

What I decided was that I knew enough. My wife had sought and received emotional and physical comfort from other men. She contracted a STD. She lost a job. While I am sure there is more, it really does not change my situation much. So what if there was a 5th or 6th OM? So what if the EA really included PA, does one or two more blowjobs make a difference? I now look at it as that was then and this is now. I look to see if she is keeping me and our M safe now.

I used to say that if I found out anything significant that she had not disclosed I would immediately D on principle. I no longer feel this way. That was then and this is now. FWW is working to fix her issues, she has done what she needed to do since the day after dday for me to feel safe in our relationship while I worked on acceptance and healing.

I found nothing in her timeline and other answers that made it all make sense. I get that years later she does not remember every time she gave someone a blowjob or how many times she had sex on a specific night, or even how many times she met at his office versus his house, versus a hotelů That was then and this is now.

There was some real anger and harsh words from FWW during the first months after dday, but at a year out she was owning her crap and seeking IC to address her issues. It may help that I had moved out at about a year our after a boundary violation. Her working on her issues was a requirement of my moving back in.

It took time, I often complained FWW was a day late and a dollar short on the R stuff and owning her A-crap, but she didů. Eventually. It was slow progress, but it was almost always progress. There are still back-sliding events, but even with these her recovery from them is much faster and self-motivated.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4133 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)

I suggest requiring some ground rules for joint sessions from now on, and one of the rules has to be 'no name calling'.

I've been in therapy groups in which one member has popped off at another, and the therapist has just said, very forcefully, 'Stop right now or leave.' The exploders stopped, and we got back to business.

I fear the low intensity of the C's confrontation has taught your W how to take control of sessions. That's not good for you or for her or for your M.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10345 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
FeelingSoMuch
Member
Member # 38814
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)

atsenaotie, I just re-read your post. Why do you have to make so much sense on a night when I'm not feeling great and considering ending things?

That's a joke, of course. You're right and I'm still stuck on this one.

Just before our marriage we changed cities for my job and I felt like I was living "the dream." I loved that city and the connections I made there. My wife wanted to move back because her family is here. She said that she didn't want us to have kids and they not have family nearby.

I was happy to move back. I so wanted kids. I started looking for work here and we both found jobs here at about the same time. The move was perfect, we even managed to sell our home and port the mortgage.

Then, once we got here, the cheating started. I resent that she used the "let's move back to have children" as bait. Not that I know for sure that was her intention.

But you're right. That was then. This is now. She's doing some of the work or a lot of the work -- depends on who you ask. I say some, but it's so hard for me take it in. The truth is probably somewhere in between.


Me: BH
Her: WW
Together since 2001, married since 2007.
D-day: Feb. 20, 2013.
Broke NC: 2 phone calls since
Today: In MC and IC, attempting R.
It got easier: They no longer work together.

Posts: 509 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: Canada
Topic Posts: 26