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Just Found Out
User Topic: Thoughts and comments 30 days later...
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)

I just found this forum and thought I'd share a few thought and my story, in the hopes of getting understanding, support, and a digital shoulder to cry into.

First some background info:
My wife and I are High School sweethearts and have been together without a single break for over 21 years. We got married since about 10 years, and have two wonderful kids, 4 and 3 years old. We also have an angel daughter, who died during delivery and would have been 6 years old today. I am honest, trusting, romatic, stable and I love my wife very much. I do believe that I am very good at showing my love and appreciation, and I keep hearing that I am a good father. We are both well educated, have good jobs and a stable financial situation. Not sure if any of the above matters at all, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

A month ago today our entire little family arrived to a tropical island resort in Asia in which we would spend two full weeks of vacation. My wife and kids were tired from the trip and went to bed while I checked out the premises and went for a swim. As I got back I decided to charge our phones and iPads after the trip and to make sure they were all connected to the hotel's free wifi.

As I unlocked my wife's phone the first thing that popped up was a SMS text conversation that I now know changed my life forever. There it was, brutal and graphic proof that my wife was having an affair, and had been doing so for a long time. Messages about how much they loved each other, of how much she wished he was there at the resort instead of me, discussions about their favourite sexual memories from their encounters etc. etc. Considering the forum I am writing this is I am sure many of you have an idea what a tsunami of emotions this triggered...

We have now spent a good four weeks talking, talking, talking. I think I have finally peeled back the layers to sort the lies from reality, and I now feel my wife is finally honest. She initiated the contact with an old flame (sound familiar?) in March 2013, met him in September for a lunch and then spent a weekend in London for a concert and sex in October. They then continued their sexual encounters in different locations during the fall. All while I suspected NOTHING! My wife has been the driving force behind the affair, not tbe other man. She initiated the contact, the first IRL meeting, the first weekend, the first kiss and the invite to her hotel room (they did start out with separate rooms).

The guilt has now hit her full force and she profoundly regrets what she has done and she claims she still loves me. She explains she now realizes that she lived in a "fake pink glittery bubble" and that she was high on the attention, but that she in fact felt areal attraction to him.

I still feel shock, disbelief, disconnected from myself and reality, and very very lonely. And imagine this will continue for quite some time...? After reading forums, articles and comments I realize most of my reactions and actions have been the "right" ones, and I am now willing to give our relationship a second chance. I have not yet fallen out of love and I still love her.

BUT:
- I am not sure I will be able to forgive her.
- I am afraid she will get off "too easy"
- I do feel the urge to have an affair myself (my wife has even suggested this and would understand). I would want do do this to "even out the playing field", to make her understand what she put me through, but also (in all honesty) out of curiosity (what/who is out there, what would it feel like with another woman, etc)
- I do/did feel the need to know every juicy little detail about their physical relations (what, when, where, how etc.). She has told me most if not everything I have asked for and I actually feel it helps as I do not need to let my imagination out of control. Does anyone else feel this way?
- I do (and this feels a bit weird!) have the urge to recreate their encounters, and want to go to the same restaurants, the same hotels, stay in the same room, do the same things etc. It feels like I want to do this to "erase and tape over" their experience with one where I am in the lead role. Weird? Common? Has anyone else done this?

Not sure what to write, what to ask, where to end. There is just too much in my head right now. Feel free to ask me questions, come with suggestions, or show support :-) Guess I just wanted to put a few words out there. Hopefully they can help me or someone else in a similar situation.

Thanks!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)

A couple of things popped out at me here.

First of all, I would say that you should NOT go to the same places her and the OM went to, talk about triggering anger. Why would you want to stay in the same motel room as they did.

You say you you think she will get off too easy. How remorseful do you feel she was. How bad do you think she really feels. The WW can be the greatest actress in the world.

I am getting the feeling she knows she did sort of wrong and is very sorry she got caught.

From everything I have ever read on here, whenever a WS suggests on their own that their BS go out and have an affair, it really means they want to continue their affair. If she said something like I wouldn't blame you, that is different than her actually suggesting you go out and have sex with some other woman.

If I were you, I would be very vigilant at this time. Watch her every move. Watch bank and credit accounts. And always watch her phone, sneak looks at her phone whenever you can. Does she take the phone into the bathroom with her, that is a bad sign.

Make sure she isn't hiding a different cell phone.

Not to be a bummer here, but my WW did the same thing. Very sorry, couldn't believe she did it etc, and continued the affair.

Does the OM live in the same city? If so, put a GPS tracking device in her car.


Watch closely.


Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)

That IS a raw deal! And your reactions to it are very typical. A fear of forgiving and a desire for her to see consequences, an obsession with what happened...it is all part of the rollercoaster. Unfortunately time is the best antitode to these. work through the trauma at your own pace, forgive yourself for your wildly veering feelings and fixations. And watch your wife's behavior to make sure she is really willing to accept the blame and support you through your struggles. Has she started going to IC (individual counseling) to explore what drove her desire for attention? That must be addressed, and then as she figures it out you can start joint MC. Until then, be as good to yourself as you possibly can be.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4088 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
kalimata
Member
Member # 42104
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)

RawDeal:

Sorry you are here. Sounds like you received the shock of your life on D-day. Here are some thoughts to ponder:

1) Your reaction sounds completely normal. You will experience a roller-coaster of emotions over the next few months. Tackle your feelings head on. Don't sweep anything under the rug. Let your WW know about each of these.

2) Knowing details is also completely normal. Ask her to write out a timeline of the affair for you with as many details as she can remember.

3) Has she committed to no-contact with OM yet? If not then why haven't you insisted upon it? They may still be together now but just more careful about hiding their communications.

4) Have you exposed this affair yet? If not why not? Without exposure the affair will surely re-kindle itself. Is the OM married? If so definintely expose to OM's wife. Expose to your close friends and family (your parents, her parents, religious leaders). This will snap her out of the fog and get her to realize what she did was wrong

5) Insist upon paternity testing for your two kids. This will let her know how much you distrust her now.

6) Get tested for STDs and insist the same for her.

7) Get into see a good therapist.

Finally the last thought I had was this: WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS IN THE MARRIAGE THAT LED HER TO GO ASTRAY? Did you ignore her? Were you emotionally detached? Did you check out of the marriage? If so these need be fixed going forward. If you cannot find any single reason then she needs to provide an answer why she did this.


Posts: 191 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
Merlin
Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Affairs often fundamentally change the way your entire world works. Your thoughts, your emotions, your work and especially your family and friends typically are experienced in entirely new ways. And of course the way you see your spouse is forever altered.

But revenge affairs and 'hall passes' are no way to deal with affairs. Revisiting all the locales and things that happened there also sounds awful, to me anyway.

You both may want to see ICs separately and together see a MC - three different people.

It's difficult to say whether your WW regrets the affair or is chagrined that she got caught. That's important to know.

As for you, a month is not a long time to 'process' this horror, especially if you are trying to do so without outside help (counselors).

It's positive that you both seem to want things to go towards preserving your marriage and family. For me, that was not possible.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/57 Me: BS/63 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1164 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Hey man. The things you are thinking and feeling are very common.

Attempts to erase and tape over as you put it, 100% normal. It is most commonly referred to as "reclaiming."

Having an A of your own isn't a good idea. You think it will make it better, but it will stop your WW from owning her choice to hurt you. Further you will have to live with the hurt in your eyes. Even though she has given you permission, it doesn't make it OK. YOU still have to live with yourself and look in the mirror.

Your W made a choice, nothing you did or didn't do caused this to happen. Honestly if she feels guilty . . .she should. She choose this and now comes the fallout.


- I am afraid she will get off "too easy"

This is quite common too. In all honesty what she deserves is a divorce. Anything other than that, she will have got off easy.

A way she can prove that she loves you and only you is to make her earn her way back into the M.

No contact with the other person, foever. 100% transparent in communications devices, travels, receipts of shopping trips, taking photos of where she says she will be, etc.

IC to figure out what the hell is wrong with her is a good thing too. Not all people do this.

There are many others, but just to get you started. Actions. Watch the actions. You can't take her at word anymore. To do so would be careless, especially when she has proven to lie to you so effectively in the recent past.

At the end of the day you have to figure out if you can live with this too. People get divorced over this and not every M should be saved. This can be a deal breaker.

Also I would point out that most BH in your shoes have had the most success with drawing some boundaries and sticking to them. You aren't going to nice her back into the M. She abides by these new boundaries or she can leave.

So sorry you are here, but glad you found us.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2554 | Registered: May 2010
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Great replies here, but I want to disagree with a few comments.

I do not believe that exposing or telling anyone about her affair is the right thing to do. Yes, tell the OM's wife if he is married, but no one else.

This can backfire later in life. For example, you tell all of your friends and family and you and your wife completely understand why she did this and reconcile, that is great. But now everyone knows what she did and will never look at her again the same. Because they will NOT have the same understand as you do about they whys and the hurt.

If your wife continues this affair or has others, than yes, it is time to start discussing this with others. But not this time.

I also wondered about this, what has your wife said about No Contact with this OM?

Have you spoken to the OM about any of this yet?


Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

I am very sorry to read this- both for your broken marriage and your lost young daughter. A lot of heartache to process in a short time.

In answer to your musings:

BUT:
- I am not sure I will be able to forgive her.

You may not be able to. It's entirely typical to fill the strong impulse just to offer immediate forgiveness because you are decimated, in crisis, and you feel that offering forgiveness will save the marriage.

It is a necessary but not sufficient condition for reconciliation. It requires true brokenness on the part of your betrayed spouse. Her displays of guilt and lucid recognition of her affair bubble are not likely indicators of complete brokenness.

- I am afraid she will get off "too easy"

This is a legitimate concern. Do not discount it. Your wife has already acknowledged that she wants this, and I'll explain how in a second...
- I do feel the urge to have an affair myself (my wife has even suggested this and would understand). I would want do do this to "even out the playing field", to make her understand what she put me through, but also (in all honesty) out of curiosity (what/who is out there, what would it feel like with another woman, etc)

That your wife is suggesting you even-the-score with a Revenge Affair tells you a great deal about her state of mind. She acknowledges you have the moral upper hand at the moment, and she would like to see you give it up so that she, too, can claim victimization / see you as her moral equivalent (an adulterer).

DO NOT HAVE A REVENGE AFFAIR. Truly, I understand the impulse, but this will only doom you to a future marriage in which you and your spouse have normalized betrayal. Reconciliation is only possible if your WIFE learns to prize faithfulness again, and that will not happen if you discount it this way.

- I do/did feel the need to know every juicy little detail about their physical relations (what, when, where, how etc.). She has told me most if not everything I have asked for and I actually feel it helps as I do not need to let my imagination out of control. Does anyone else feel this way?

Everyone is different. Some want every detail, others want to know as little as possible. Do not assume she's disclosed everything (you can't trust anything that she says at the moment), and do not assume that what she shares will not start to bother or even torment you months or years down the road.
- I do (and this feels a bit weird!) have the urge to recreate their encounters, and want to go to the same restaurants, the same hotels, stay in the same room, do the same things etc. It feels like I want to do this to "erase and tape over" their experience with one where I am in the lead role. Weird? Common? Has anyone else done this?

This is a form of Hysterical Bonding, a typical behavior impulse that occurs during false or real reconciliation after an affair. Your desire is to "reclaim" your wife from the former flame. It may last weeks, months or longer, but it will not save your marriage.

---

So ask yourself: "Do I want to save this marriage? Can I truly forgive this? Is she truly sorry, to the point that it sickens her to know she did this? Is this woman really someone I might one day trust again?" If the answer to any of these is no, then spare yourself the agonies ahead and start divorce proceedings.

You need to be able to answer all of those questions with "Yes" before you can even hope to reconcile and rebuild (and still, it's HARD!) Marriage Counseling can help, books can help, this forum can certainly help.

But you have some serious hills to climb. Warning signs include:

1) Your wife initiated the affair.
2) It was a long term one.
3) You discovered it as opposed to her confessing it.
4) Your wife endorses a "revenge affair".

These are all troubling indicators of your wife's untrustworthiness. And they may not be the extent of it, as the possibility exists that she's had other affairs you don't know about (whether long term ones, one night stands, online sex, etc.)

You should proceed very cautiously. Don't make rash choices. Know that you are only one month past discovery, and you are likely to be on an emotional roller coaster for many months to come. Consult an attorney about divorce, even if you don't plan to act on it. If you race to reconcile, your wife will think less of you and more highly of herself. She needs to think much LESS of herself, and to recognize, finally, your worth. That can only happen if she's confronted with the very possibility you will leave her because she has made herself unworthy of your love and trust.

She broke the marriage and your heart. Now she, too, needs to be broken. Only then can you both start the process of picking up the pieces.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Finally the last thought I had was this: WHAT WERE THE CONDITIONS IN THE MARRIAGE THAT LED HER TO GO ASTRAY? Did you ignore her? Were you emotionally detached? Did you check out of the marriage? If so these need be fixed going forward. If you cannot find any single reason then she needs to provide an answer why she did this.

NOTHING that the OP did caused this. NOTHING. I'm thoroughly shocked to see such things suggested here, honestly.

RawDeal, you didn't create conditions that let her to go astray. Her own brokeness did that. This is some of the most off-keel advice I've seen on this board, truthfully.

She does need to understand what in her is broken, but it didn't come from you.


It's so easy to believe someone when they're telling you exactly what you want to hear.....

Posts: 1879 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
OK now
Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Your wife's recommendation to have a revenge affair just creates an open marriage and I do believe this will lead her to cheat again.

Your WW will get off easy in the short term. The pain and humiliation is yours and all she has to do is wait for you to get over it and for things to get back to 'normal'. In the long term you will never fully trust her again and all that soulmate garbage is out of the window. Your love will change and you will never look at your relationship through rose-colored glasses ever again. More cynicism, less romance.

You also need to bear in mind that your wife may be insincere in her expressed remorse. She could be fighting to keep her cosy marriage intact, with the increased finance, security and companionship that a comfortable relationship implies.
She didn't have enough respect for you to stay loyal; why should you think that she has now discovered a deep, new-found love for you; one that she misplaced during her passionate affair? I detect self-interest at work here not true remorse.


Posts: 1704 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
Hannah25
Member
Member # 42198
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Try to take the high road. If you have a RA, you will be no better than her.


ME: 35
WBF: 44
Together 11 years
DDay: 1/12/14
DDay2: 3/28/14

Posts: 64 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Ohio
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:19 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Firstly - thank you so much for your thought, advise and comments. Much appreciated!

I realize I left a few important facts out of the puzzle, so I thought I'd add some pieces and comments:

- I do feel that my wife (WW, right? Need to get the hang of the abbreviations...) truly regrets what she has done, and is somehow relieved that she was finally exposed. I do feel and believe that she does in fact love me.

- OM lives in another city (5 hours away)

- OM has a family (wife, 2 kids)

- I have not exposed the affair to anyone, as I did not want to create a situation where the potential of repairing the damage would be reduced due to putting my wife through the shame, or having our friends and family forever look at her and me differently from this point on. There seems to be a difference in opinions on how to act here...?

- I have not exposed the affair to the OM's wife

- the second day after d-day I started writing, no vomiting! my thoughts and feelings onto a piece of paper. It was supposed to be for me only to sort what was going on in my head, but it slowly turned into a letter to the OM. I wanted him to see the face, the person, the man whose relationship he helped destroy. I wanted to make him feel, hurt, understand what he had done. I emailed this to him two days later. I let my wife read it first, and I also gave her the opportunity to write something, anything, uncencored, to the OM as a last piece of communication before all channels were shut. All she decided to write was: "I'm sorry." (Not sure if this was a mistake, but it felt right. Actually still feels right)

- WW has accepted that all communication channels to the OM are now, and will forever be, closed. She has promised that she will never ever contact him again, or respond to anything he might send to her

- OM has promised to never ever contact my wife again. He understands that if he does I will immediately tell his wife about the affair. (Not sure what you all make of this? Mistake? If so, why?)

- I truly do not feel any "guilt" in my wife's decision to have an affair. I feel that I have been a very good, loyal, loving, understanding, etc. husband. And even if I hadn't the choice was still hers and hers only.

- I see now how it sounds like my wife recommended the I have an affair myself. This is not the case (sorry for the confusion!). The thought was brought up during our discussion by me when I wanted her to see/understand how much it had hurt me. She did not approve, but said she would understand and that there would be nothing she could say or do about it. I am really torn here: I do not want to have to face myself in the mirror for having done something despicable, but as the same time I'm thinking it could level the playing field, correct the imbalance and actually help the healing process? Am I completely and utterly wrong here. I know it would mean lowering myself to her level (not quite as it would not be lying or infidelity in my mind as I would then declare my intentions and telk her about it). This could just be my messed up mind talking, if so set me straight.

Hosea asked me to ask myself a couple of good questions: ""Do I want to save this marriage? Can I truly forgive this? Is she truly sorry, to the point that it sickens her to know she did this? Is this woman really someone I might one day trust again?" If the answer to any of these is no, then spare yourself the agonies ahead and start divorce proceedings."
As of today the answer to all of those questions is "I don't know." Guess I need to give myself more time to figure that out...

I am sure there is more I need to clarify, but in the meantime I really appreciate your advice and kind words.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

lets assume i knew about your wifes affair. would you want me to tell you? dont you deserve to know? why are you depriving the other person the right to the truth and the knowledge that you would want to have. telling the other spouse is the RIGHT thing to do. period.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 528 | Registered: Jan 2014
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

By the way, the reclaiming, the hysterical bonding, what should I make of that? I understand it happens and might even be common, but should I resist it? Embrace it?

So far I feel everything I have done have been positive and led things in the right direction, to slightly less chaos, sadness, anger. I hope it stays that way and that I do not get a backlash...


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Thanks William. I have asked myself that same question. Some days I wish I never found out, others I am certain I would have wanted to know. Somewhere I guess I know it's the right thing to do.

One thing that makes me hesitant is the possibility of driving my wife and the OM into each others arms, especially if he feels he has nothing to lose...


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

To the kind people replying to my thread: something that I think would help me (if you don't mind) would be to know if you managed to repair/rebuild your own relationship, or if your marriages are now over. What are the odds of succeeding?, is what I guess I am after...

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 9:58 AM, February 21st (Friday)]


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 2:40 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Raw Deal, your last comment sums up your feelings and I completely understand. On the one hand you say your wife will never communicate with the OM and she is sorry etc, yet you are afraid telling the OM wife will drive him into your wife's arms.

That implies you still believe your wife has feelings for this guy and would be willing for him to come back to her.

Use your gut feelings and intuitions when talking with your wife. I am sort of bothered that she does not blame the OM for any of this. Maybe she started it, but he could have said no. Both are too blame.

I guess I would like to hear a little more disgust towards the OM from your wife. Unless this is her way, she just takes the high road and doesn't blame others.

I don't think you should go to the places they were at. There are other ways to reconnect with your wife and make your own new memories instead of reliving the ones she had with him.

Keep watching her though. The longer she is honest with you, the better you will feel and the more you will be able to trust her.


Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Welcome Raw -
You have been given some great advice so far. I would recommend that you go back and re read it.

I would also suggest that you read the threads with the bullseyes, I will bump them up to the first page when I am done posting.

Now I get that you want to believe your wife, and want to make this work but also wonder how much you can forgive, if you can forgive. It's very hard to know that in the first bit after Dday, and no one is telling you that you need to know or make a decision today, tomorrow, or next week or month.

Your wifes ACTIONS, not words will be your guide, and barometer in this. You want to believe her, and want this to go smoothly, however you really must assume that everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie at this point. Afterall she had you bamboozled for the past year. I am willing to bet as time goes on you will find out that the "truths" she shared with you in the first 30 days were not complete, and softened around the edges "to protect" you.

Look for a secret cell phone.
Put a keylogger on her phone, her tablet, and computer.
NC is usually broken in LTA's at least once if not multiple times.

See a lawyer, and find out your rights, and use those to your advantage to draw your line in the sand should you find any of the above to be true.

Focus on you, make sure you are eating, sleeping, and staying hydrated, and if you are struggling with this basic stuff see your Dr, and talk about if meds can help you through this time. They have helped many of us here through the initial hard days. You also do need to be STD tested.
I would demand she is as well, and gives you written documentation of an all clean bill of health before having unprotected sex again.

As far as the HB goes, it can do wonders to help you both reconnect again, and builds the bonds of intimacy. We always had a decent sex life, but after Dday is got even better, and once my H really got it, and Real R started, it was tremendous in healing. Yes we are a couple that survived a LTA, and it are 5 years out, so when I speak of things, it's not only my experiences I have seen but many here who have come an gone.

I can tell you that trying to nice your way through this will get you stung. Be very clear, and concise on what your expectations are, and be ready to follow through on consequences. This is what really breaks the fog for many a wayward.

Lastly. Telling the OW - I would urge you to do this. You may not have realized what was going on, so you didn't question her fidelity, but trust me, I went through 6 agonizing months of trying to figure out what the hell was wrong with my H. From everything to schizophrenia (on both our parts) to invasion of the body snatchers, to how come I can't ever be good enough. No one deserves to suffer like that, and she certainly deserves the option of working it out, or throwing him out. You don't know if this is his first, or 15th affair. You cant trust what your wife says or what your wife says he told her.

Keep reading, keep posting, and remember, you only get the love and respect you deserve when you demand it.

(((and strength)))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8228 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Thanks for your comments craig2001!

Just thought I'd add a couple more things:
- we had our first MC session today. It felt good, but not great. not sure about the therapist. It was a woman who every now and then seemes to sympathize a bit too much with my WW. Could have been an over-interpretation on my part though.
- my WW and I both start our individual ICs next week. My WW recogizes the need for this as she cannot explain her actions herself. She tells me again and again that there is no real reason behind it, that I could have done nothing differently.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Thanks tushnurse for your long and insightful reply, and for sharing your own experiences.
I will revisit my thinking on telling the OW, feels more and more like the right thing to do. Would an option be to let the OM do this himself? Your thoughts on this?


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
JellyGirl84
Member
Member # 41717
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

RawDeal,

Please please please tell the OM's wife. I am so glad the bf of the girl who was cheating with my WH found a way to tell me. He saved my life. I have happiness that much sooner because he contacted me. I am getting divorced and I'd rather be that than be wondering what my WH's problem is, never knowing he was cheating.


Me: BS 30
WH: 30
No kids
Divorced in June 2014
Together 10 yrs, Married for 3 of those yrs
OP: Ho worker
Divorced

Posts: 148 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Nj
LAFA
Member
Member # 31868
Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

Raw Deal: Gently, you cannot trust the OM to tell his wife any more than you could trust him not to screw yours. It's important that the other betrayed spouse know the life she is living, that she may have been given an STD, to protect herself as she sees fit. Do not discuss this with your WW or the OM, providing them with an opportunity to paint you as a crazy jealous fool or worse. It may also have the benefit of preventing them from taking the affair underground.


When you put someone on a pedestal, they quickly learn two things. The view is mighty good from up there, and it is a fine vantage from which to kick.

Posts: 183 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From: Hawaii
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

You cannot, I repeat...You CANNOT leave it up to the om to tell his spouse. He will not be truthful and even if you were standing there making him do it he would give a watered down version.

These 2 people have lied, cheated, hid, covered up, and lied some more in the past year to get their egos stroked and their rocks off. Do not believe, trust, or give the benefit of a doubt to either one of them. It sucks I know and the pain can be paralyzing at times. But you now know that the one person that was supposed to have your back regardless is broken and needs to do some serious work on herself.

Forgive my blunt manner but I sure wished someone would have made this clear to me on DDay. Instead I willingly believed my spouse and eagerly headed down the path of R. Only to have him break NC again and again and again. If someone would have said wait hold it, this isn't What normally happens it would have saved me some heartache I think.

You are smart, strong, capable and deserve more. You won't get it though until you take control and demand it.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8228 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
mainlyinpain
Member
Member # 39134
Default  Posted: 6:01 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

How would you know the OM would tell his spouse the truth?
A reason given a lot for telling the OS is to have another pair of eyes on the A. This BS will be watching the OM and know if he is acting in a way that she suspects he has taken the A underground, hidden it better.
As for a revenge A....who with? An old friend of yours who you will write texts to about how much you love them and how great sex is together and how you wish you were with them instead of your WW? You can't recreate what she did...I don't think you would want to. And whoever you would have an affair with is a person too.
Are you going to hurt them? Or is it just revenge sex? How many times? As many as she did? What if you develop feelings for this person? What if she ends up pregnant or you get an STD? Do you want to be that guy? Why have


DD 1 - 7/7/2004
DD 2 - 10/31/2011
DD 3 - 4/30/2013(or continuation?)(Yes)
DD 4 - 9/25/2013
DD 5 - 2/15/2014 (found phone from 2009)

Posts: 485 | Registered: Apr 2013
mainlyinpain
Member
Member # 39134
Default  Posted: 6:07 PM, February 18th (Tuesday)

How would you know the OM would tell his spouse the truth?
Another reason for telling the OS is to have another pair of eyes on the A. This BS will be watching the OM and know if he is acting in a way that she suspects he has taken the A underground, hidden it better.
As for a revenge A....who with? An old friend of yours who you will write texts to about how much you love them and how great sex is together and how you wish you were with them instead of your WW? You can't recreate what she did...I don't think you would want to. And whoever you would have an affair with is a person too. Are you going to hurt them? Or is it just revenge sex? How many times? As many as she did? What if you develop feelings for this person? What if she ends up pregnant or you get an STD?
You can't do to your WW what she did to you.
That would destroy your life for sure.
Be the man you were before this, the father you were before this. Don't invite more anguish into your life.
It may be that the idea of being with someone other than your wife becomes more and more appealing. If that happens then D. Realize you don't have to do anything right now. Make decision about anything. You have alot of options but you need to take the time to think.

So sorry for the pain you are going through.


DD 1 - 7/7/2004
DD 2 - 10/31/2011
DD 3 - 4/30/2013(or continuation?)(Yes)
DD 4 - 9/25/2013
DD 5 - 2/15/2014 (found phone from 2009)

Posts: 485 | Registered: Apr 2013
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:01 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Most, if not all, of what you are all saying makes perfect sense to me. I think I'm starting to realize I should have gone with my first instinct and told the OM's wife immediately. Better late than never I guess... Everything I have done and thought so far, since Dday, has been done without consulting forums or articles on the subject, and even though I feel most of what I have done and the ways I have reacted have been "right" and sensible, I now see that some external input would have been good at an earlier stage. Also - I have not yet confided in anyone else, not a single family member or friend knows. This makes me feel very alone in the world right now, but at the same time I am hesitant to open up to any of our shared friends.

In telling the OMs wife - how did you do this? Phone call? Email? Did you at once and first contact provide all the proof (emails, SMS, photos, receipts, etc.) you had gathered on the A? Did the first contact lead to consecutive contacts with the OP's spouse? When, how?

Do any of you regret telling it? A small piece of me actually feels bad for the OM! How sick is that??!?!! I have had a few emails going back and forth between him and me to confirm the story of my WW, and to try to understand why. Why!
He seems sincere and to the best of my knowledge he has given me nothing but the truth and actually openness about the A and his own relationship. No remorse, no apology though...


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

In our situation, I actually did not tell OW's H, why? because she was a very powerful attorney in her town, and had basically threatened my H that if he told him she would sue him for Libel, and slander.....Of course when she broke NC the last time, he did send him the information as he felt he had nothing left to loose, and she was weaker than he had ever imagined. That was about 6 months in. My H was the 3 AP for her.

Don't know what happened to her after that, and honestly don't care. I do know the Karma bus will stop at her house one day and ruin her life.

When H finally told her H he basically sent some proof in an email, and apologized for his actions, and gave him the names of the other two men, that the Crazy OW had willingly shared with H during the A. He sent it from a made up email account, left it open for 48 hours, and then deleted it. Never heard back from him.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8228 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 9:13 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

As far as I know in the US, libel and slander brings everything out in court. All truths and I would that this OW lawyer would know all of that.

It is only libel or slander if untruths or lies are told.

The slander laws are different and not as friendly in the UK.

A lawsuit would have been very ugly for this OW I would imagine.


Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
kalimata
Member
Member # 42104
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

RawDeal:

The reason why both the OM and your WW are pleased that you are not breaking their fantasy bubble by not exposing is that they now have the opportunity to take things underground.

I hate to tell you this, but most likely what is happening is that they have found other more secretive ways to communicate with each other.

The only way you can shatter their fantasy world and slap them both into reality is to expose the affair. I understand why you don't want to expose to too many people. This is a common request that most waywards ask. But in the end you won't be able to live with yourself unless you know that WW is TRUELY REMORSEFUL for the pain she has inflicted upon you and your family.

EXPOSE THE AFFAIR TO OMW. Its the right thing to do. Will prevent you a WHOLE lot of pain in the coming months to come. Else you will always be wondering whenever your WW ducks into the shadow.


Posts: 191 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
kalimata
Member
Member # 42104
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

In telling the OMs wife - how did you do this? Phone call? Email? Did you at once and first contact provide all the proof (emails, SMS, photos, receipts, etc.) you had gathered on the A? Did the first contact lead to consecutive contacts with the OP's spouse? When, how?

Best way to do it in person or via telephone call. If you send a letter or email, make sure it cannot be intercepted by OM. Send enough proof just so OMW knows you are not bluffing. If she asks for more proof, offer to meet her in person and show her what you have.

OM may have access to his wife's email account, or be the primary person checking the postal mail.

In my case I let the OMW know via facebook. The message was short, and I provided a photo showing both OM and WW together as proof. The response was instanteous. She must have immediately called OM right up and blasted him.

Just get ready, because if after exposure, the word somehow gets back to your WW, you will know that she violated NC. Be prepared to stand your ground.


Posts: 191 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
kalimata
Member
Member # 42104
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

One last thought:

DO NOT WARN ANYONE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO EXPOSE.......JUST DO IT.

Otherwise what will happen is that it will give OM and WW chance to concoct their stories to align.

DO NOT WARN.........EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE

Stand back and watch the shyte hit the fan.


Posts: 191 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

You are all amazing for taking time out of your days to respond to the desperate questions and musings of an unknown person. Thank you! It is truly helful to know there is so much support, love and wisdom out there.

I now know I will tell OM's wife.

I will also take the high road and not pursue a revenge affair. How would I have done that anyway? Spend months and months on finding the right (and willing!) person, butter her up with emails, phone calls and sexual invites until she accepted to have an affair with me? Risking to send both her and me on emotional rollercoasters, and potentially destroying another persons life and trust. I don't think so. Stupid thought, and disgusting.

Another thing I have just decided to do is to try to accelerate the remorse and feeling of guilt in my WW. I still do not see that enough, still feels she "can have me if she wants me", and the only things triggering real emotions in her is the risk of her losing custody or when I accuse her of lying. What I want to do is to give her an ultimatum : if she truly wants me and for me to allow her to start building up my trust in her again I will want her to expose the affair and exactly what she has done to her own parents and brother. I expect to do so this weekend. This would be one of the worst things imaginable to her, and would really be a test of her love for me. Has anyone done something similar? Did it work? Any ideas around this?


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I'm glad you're telling OM's wife. She deserves to know. I told via FB, followed by a phone call.

As far as 'testing', why bother? Then it's just a game of who can outdo who. If she wants you, you'll know it. If not, then tell her to leave. If you want to see how she really feels, don't challenge her with a 'do this, or lose me' game. Just take yourself away. You'll see really quickly how she really feels, and it will be all about you, not whether or not she finds what you've asked for less distasteful than you leaving.

Tell her that she isn't really remorseful, and that you don't see a future with her arrogant attitude, and you want her to leave. Then start the 180. That will help you to detach from her (a good thing regardless of the outcome here). If she wakes up and sees what she's losing, great. You will have your answer. If not, great - you have your answer. Don't drag silly challenges into it. If you want her parents to know, why? If so, then tell them together, or have her tell them, but don't make that the only condition of R. It will take much more than that.

And please, don't change your mind on telling OBS.


It's so easy to believe someone when they're telling you exactly what you want to hear.....

Posts: 1879 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 6:07 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

What I want to do is to give her an ultimatum : if she truly wants me and for me to allow her to start building up my trust in her again I will want her to expose the affair and exactly what she has done to her own parents and brother. I expect to do so this weekend. This would be one of the worst things imaginable to her, and would really be a test of her love for me. Has anyone done something similar? Did it work? Any ideas around this?

My wife was completely contrite, which is a luxury you do not currently have. I told her I expected her to tell her parents because I felt they deserved to know why I'd behaved erratically over the prior few months. Though it was difficult for her, my wife called her mom and told her.

Her mother was disappointed in her, but said, "We love you, honey. Unconditionally. We're here for you, and we hope you both can get through this."

Here's the thing. You are trying to force your wife into a state of humiliated brokenness. Yet this isn't something Betrayed Spouses can control or force, and it might backfire by making your Wayward Wife feel resentment towards you as she clings to her own protective instincts and whatever delusions of grandeur she harbors from her esteem- boosting affair.

True brokenness- the sort you can build a future on- comes solely from within the heart of a convicted wayward. How? If we knew, we'd bottle it up and make a fortune selling to the booming Betrayed Spouse market.

"PENITENCE - Goodbye Obsession, Hello Contrition!"

Only God or conscience can truly convict a Wayward of their misdeeds. It rarely happens overnight, and, to my knowledge, it never happens through coercion (especially by the Betrayed Spouse).

It's right to have demands. If she wants to reconcile, consider carefully what demands you make, and in what order you make them. First priority, after telling OM's wife, is total openness (email, gps, etc.). Total disclosure (no tickle truth). Etc.

You want to expose the truth, destroy the fantasy, and give the affair no place to hide. I would let these first actions do their work-- during this time, your wayward might become more convinced of the selfishness and depravity of her actions. If she has a heart, soul, and real love for you, this can eventually lead her to see you as the undeserving victim of her evil, reckless choices. If this happens, you will no longer fight to break her, she will start fighting to protect YOU from even more pain. Confessing to her family MIGHT even be seen by her as a way she can EARN back a bit of your trust and respect. She might DESIRE to prove to you that she is WILLING to suffer her family's disapproval for YOUR sake.

It can happen. But if you try to make it happen, it very likely never will.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
nuance
Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 7:04 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

correct the imbalance

You will never correct this. An RA won't do it, a D won't do it. The only way to make it "fair" would be for you to have an exact mirror affair while you were married to her and she never cheated on you. Obviously this will never happen.

It will always be unfair. Unfortunately it will take a long time for you to accept this.

You should tell OM's BW and keep your WW in the dark until you do it. Otherwise she may warn him.

Do you have access to all her accounts and passwords including phone, internet, banks? I would install a key logger as well.

[This message edited by nuance at 7:05 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:26 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

Another slew of good comments, thanks Hosea, mainlyinpain, painfulpast,JellyGirl84 and everybody else. I see that I have once again failed to explain what I want to do, what that would accomplish and the background to it. Asking mynWW to tell her parents or her brother would not be an ultimatum as such, but rather an opportunity to earn some of my respect and trust back. It would also put the A "out there" in a way, make it "real", give it an existence outside my mind and my WW's. A third reason would be that the only time my WW REALLY seems to realize what she has done is when she explains the A and her actions in her own words, articulates them and cannot hide behind euphemisms etc. Telling the story to a loving/caring third party in my prescence would create a situation in which I believe she would understand her own actions and what they have resulted in, without being forced into humiliation and brokenness.

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 10:04 AM, February 21st (Friday)]


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
TheWrongedMan
Member
Member # 42009
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, February 20th (Thursday)

Hi,

I wanted to reply as our circumstances are similar (same age, DDay) though I have been 'luckier' than you (you can the general idea from my sig below).

However, even though my wife's was a drunken one-off and she confessed immediately, the thing we have most in common is that I have been feeling exactly the same as you have (so you are clearly very justified in doing so!).

My wife and I are generally getting on well and she seems remorseful, and in my 'lucid' state I know this is positive. However, after a while I start to think that she has gotten everything she wants and has now 'won' and now I'm carrying the can for it all. Basically I think she's gotten off lightly, though I know making her suffer (for want of a better word) will be counterproductive. I also doubt sometimes how sorry she really is. I think part of the natural state of the cheater is to detach and try and forget what they've done (which is kind of understandable I suppose, though I think it will catch up with them sooner or later). This whole process is like a vicious circle.

My wife has also suggested that I might want to even the score, and I have been in nightclubs a couple of times at around 3am or 4am and v drunk, and when I thought about it, I actually ended up sending some pretty angry texts to my wife about how the idea made me want to 'puke'.

If I'm honest, my number one motivation for cheating back would have been to 'save face' in our marriage, followed by evening things up so we can move on and the actual pleasure of doing it.

However, what would the reality of this be? Walking around clubs being blown out by women I don't really want to sleep with would make me feel far worse, and when I was out and drunk I also started thinking that if my wife were out here trying the same, she would have sealed the deal by now (not that I tried anything but you can see my drunken 'logic'). Or trawling the internet for someone to have sex with? I basically said to my wife about this, 'Sorry, but the sort of women who will f&ck a near stranger at the drop of a hat don't grow on trees', which kind of put her in her place in more ways than one.

As for sex, I suppose I don't relate as we haven't had sex since it happened (she has suggested it), though we've done the whole hysterical bonding. I feel like I don't want to give in and do the one thing I know he did too soon.

I don't really have any advice for you as I'm currently going through the same experience. However, that's what I've been turning over for a while now and I hope some of it chimes with you. Good luck!


BH: Me, 37
WW: 37
Together: 17, married 7 (what a cliche)
DD: 10/1/14 V drunk ONS, confessed immediately, repentant
Kids: None (though we were trying)

Posts: 78 | Registered: Jan 2014
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:59 PM, February 20th (Thursday)

WrongedMan, I am so sorry you are here. But thanks a lot for sharing your story with me and all the other BS here. It saddens and sickens me to hear and understand that there are others out there having to go through the same horrifying experiences and emotions I have had recently. At the same time it strengthens me to know that what I feel isn't completely weird, wrong, or unnatural.

For us sex worked just a day or two after D-day. It was on my wife's initiative, and I appreciated her trying even though at first I was completely grossed out by the idea of being close to her and even disgusted by her body. It was actually very good and intimate. It took another couple of days until I could kiss her. I had (and to a certain extent still have) major issues with her mouth as I knew, and couldn't get out of my head, exactly what she had had in it. Since then HB has really kicked in and we now have lots of sex. Fantastic, intimate and full of love. At least that's what it feels like. Strange!

As you can see from my posts in this thread I still have a hard time completely getting the idea of an affair of my own out of my head. Besides the childish idea of correcting the imbalance where the point would actually be lowering myself to WW's level so that she would not have to be alone living with what she has done and feeling sub-human about it, there is still a part of me that is genuinely interested in what it would be like. My wife and I met young and she is the only one I have ever had sex with. And up until the A I was her only one. So you can see there is another level to it too...

Good luck with everything! I feel your hurt. Let us know how things go. I will continue to comment on my own progress. The big thing coming up for us is my WW telling her brother and his wife this weekend. I willbe there to and I am extremely nervous about it.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
TheWrongedMan
Member
Member # 42009
Default  Posted: 2:13 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Hi, ta for replying you seem to be doing really well! Have to run as in uk and have work but will post more on weekend. As for HB my attitude is that I want to so you might as well enjoy it while it lasts (plus it obviously does help with bonding too)! Good luck!


BH: Me, 37
WW: 37
Together: 17, married 7 (what a cliche)
DD: 10/1/14 V drunk ONS, confessed immediately, repentant
Kids: None (though we were trying)

Posts: 78 | Registered: Jan 2014
self-rescuer
Member
Member # 35059
Default  Posted: 6:19 AM, February 21st (Friday)

we had our first MC session today. It felt good, but not great. not sure about the therapist. It was a woman who every now and then seemes to sympathize a bit too much with my WW. Could have been an over-interpretation on my part though.

If you feel this MC is biased toward your WW than you must find a different MC. Yes, your WW must be heard in your sessions but any MC who is experienced in matters of infidelity will not give the WW a pass.

As many on these boards will agree, a counselor who does not have a clear understanding of the extraordinary pain suffered by the BS will do much more harm than good.

Bottom line - no " sympathizing a bit too much" with you WW allowed. The shock of the affair can be likened to a gun shot wound. It needs to be addressed first. Issues WW may have had with the marriage have no relevance at this point - NONE.


BW 53
WXH 55
married 26 yrs
D-Day 9-15-11

Divorce final 3-13-13

Just trust yourself, then you will know how to live.
~ Goethe


Posts: 498 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: the south
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Thanks self-rescuer! Good point! We have our next session booked for next week, and I will see after that if I want to change. It couls have just been me interpreting things she said and body language in the wrong way... I'll be wary about it, I will not spend time on sessions that are counter-productive.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Another update:
Tomorrow my WW will tell her brother and his wife about the A and about what she has done to crush me and our family. She is extremely nervous about it (so am I), but she understands my reasons behind asking her if she would be willing to do it, and points out again and again that she is willing to do this or anything else needed for me to forgive her for what she has done. It frightens me and makes me very uncomfortable to all of a sudden have this much power and control over her. I didn't ask for it, don't want it, but it's there.

Last night WW called her brother to give him a heads up that she had something important to tell him. It made him worried like crazy, but she wanted to tell him in person with me there so she did not even hint what it was about. That fact that she broke down and cried during the call made him understand that it is something very serious though. There is no going back now...

I'll let you know how it goes, and if it stills feels like a good idea after the talk.

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 9:57 AM, February 21st (Friday)]


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, February 21st (Friday)

I do not really see any benefit in your wife telling her brother. I understand what you are saying that it seems she only realizes the magnitude of what she has done when she has to tell someone, but didnt she already do this with her mom...I think you wrote.

It sounds like she is doing everything to R, I dont see how telling her brother will help, and I can see it backfiring.

Her brother might never understand the reasons she did this like you do and he might not ever think of her the same way.


Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Hi craig,
Nope, she hasn't told anyone yet, and will not tell her parents. I don't think she would be able to live with the humiliation. But after us discussing my feelings that there had to be someone, almost anyone, out there besides me who knows about the A she wanted to tell her brother. Both she and I know full well that it will likely change the way he looks at her, but I could not stand the thought of having the A in just my mind (and my WW's). It had to become "real", and we both felt the best way of doing that was to "say it's name out loud".


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Re: craig2001

I think, if his WW is willing to tell her brother and is experiencing the pain of personal shame about her behavior, it's a positive sign of both her remorse and her commitment to be accountable to her BS.

Why should her brother think of her the same way? I wouldn't think of my sister the same way, I'd be disappointed in her actions. I would love her no less, but I'd sure as hell tell her to do her damnedest to make it up to her Betrayed if he was willing to try!

Part of the repentant Wayward's journey, at least to me, is being forced to confront the dismal human costs of his/her affair. For a time, it seemed a Free Trip to Fantasyland- Wine! Roses! Romance! Ego boosts! Exciting secrets! Sexual adventure!, etc.

Yet after exposure, the gigantic bill comes due. If there is to be Reconciliation, the Betrayed pays the huge emotional down payment. It costs them everything they have; their trust, self-esteem, their happy marital memories, sometimes even their sanity.

Yet the Wayward has to make the monthly payments. The interest rate is huge, and they're horrified to discover they're going to be making payments for years, possibly even the rest of their lives. Waywards don't lose everything at once, but over time, they sometimes lose more.

Experiencing a partial loss of respect from family members is painful, but that pain can help immunize them from future affairs. More importantly, being willing to experience shame before family helps demonstrate to the Betrayed Spouse that the Wayward is repentant. This makes a deposit in the Betrayed's empty "Can I ever trust my spouse again?" account.

If the Wayward's family believes in the sacredness of marriage vows, they will have a newfound respect for a Betrayed Spouse who is willing to forgive the unforgivable acts of their Wayward family member. This, too, helps, as they can reinforce Wayward accountability in the future.

I personally think it's a positive gesture. I do hope it leads to many more like it.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Very interesting points and something I never really thought about. When I look back, my WW never really had consequences like having to tell anyone else.

Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, February 21st (Friday)

I agree with craig, very interesting (and well explained) points! I thought of it more like something I needed to keep me sane, to ground the A also in someone else's reality instead of in just my own nightmarish one. I hope it will be a positive experience for both of us and that it does indeed lead to further steps on the road to R.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
TheWrongedMan
Member
Member # 42009
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, February 21st (Friday)

RawDeal, sorry, back online now. With regard to sex, weirdly I haven't found this to be a trigger. I have never really been a jealous person which maybe helps, or maybe I'm simply glad I'm getting some!

Also, my wife was so drunk (fell off a stool at 4am after doing shots just prior) that she apparently doesn't remember details, other than that it was fairly quick and that they had sex, so I haven't had much detail. The mouth thing I don't have a huge prob with as she doesn't think she did (and if it was a v drunken, tear your clothes off quickie then I would veer towards they prob just got on with it, if you see what I mean). However, I haven't attempted the one thing I know that they did do - have intercourse - so maybe that particular battle is ahead of me.

On the revenge sex thing - having had drunken one night stands with strangers before I met my wife, after the initial thrill, even before they were over I used to often find the novelty wearing off, but maybe that's just me. Anyway, my wife seemed to enjoy her's so maybe there's hope for both of us on that front.

As said before, the actual logistics of setting something like that up sounds pretty depressing to me and would prob just make me feel worse (and think about how my wife was able to do it). Not sure any woman would want to be on the receiving end of someone having sex like that either (could get emotional). However, I can't say that I don't share your curiosity - and if the chance fell right into my lap while drunk as it did for my wife, I'd probably just take it now so maybe I should get slightly off of my high horse.

Part of the problem, I think, is that if you're a woman looking for meaningless sex, you're not going to be short of men who'll oblige. Whereas the other way around, I think it might be a bit harder to find someone to jump straight into bed with you.

Anyway, good luck!


BH: Me, 37
WW: 37
Together: 17, married 7 (what a cliche)
DD: 10/1/14 V drunk ONS, confessed immediately, repentant
Kids: None (though we were trying)

Posts: 78 | Registered: Jan 2014
happyman64
Member
Member # 33212
Default  Posted: 12:13 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

RawDeal

Take one day at a time. It is good to see your wife upset over the terrible decisions she made as well as the remorse she is showing.

You are right that the affair be brought into the light. Even if only to her brother.

That is how affairs get killed. By exposure.

Not let the OMW know and give her evidence so she can deal, with her husband and their marriage.

Both your wife and the OM need to feel consequences. Because if they do not feel pain they will just do it again.

Remember she lied for almost a year. Emotionally and physically she gave herself to the OM and lied to you. She opened the marriage up without asking you.

She risked you and your children for her own desires. You do not get anymore selfish than that........

Now do not take up her offer of your own fling.

It is your wife that wants to level the playing field. That way she can give up on feeling the guilt. She can call it even and now not have to discuss the issues that lead her to cheat and lie to you.

Do not take the easy way out nor allow her to take the easy way out.

You deserve better from her so make sure you get better from her. Hold her and yourself accountable in your marriage or it is all a sham.

I hope your weekend went ok.

You will be cleaning up her mess. MaKe sure she helps you.

HM

PS
Was she tested for std's???

[This message edited by happyman64 at 12:14 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)]


Posts: 828 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New York
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, February 24th (Monday)

OK, not sure how many of you still read and follow this thread but for those of you who do, here isa an update:

Lots have happened since my last post. Enough to split inte several post to simplify reading about them.

ONE:
WW told her brother and his wife. I was there during the talk. It was initially horribly emotional and nerve-wrecking, but it turned out really good. WW did a good job and was open about the A and included just the right amount of information, not really withholding on anything, not flinching when giving what I felt and knew were honest answers. The brother was extremely upset, disappointed and angry with her and could not believe his ears.

I got a lot of love and support which felt really good. So did the "grounding" of the A in someone else's reality that I have talked about before. WW has not managed to show enough empathy about the pain she has caused me, and the only time she has really broken down and cried has been when thinking about the risk of not getting to spend all of her time with the children, or when she feels the shame over what she has done from someone else. Having to speak the words to a third party and listen to herself telling the story aloud worked wonders and I think she took a baby step in the right direction.
I would recommend doing something similar if you end up in a situation like mine.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, February 24th (Monday)

TWO: I finally told the OM's wife. Thanks to all of you for pointing me in the right direction here. I should have done it a long time ago. If you are in a situation like mine please please please tell the spouse of the other person ASAP. They deserve to know, to make their own decisions. There is NO "happily" unaware. There could be STDs involved and you do not want it on your conscience to know you could have prevented someone from getting HIV but didn't. Tell the other persons spouse. Just do it!

It can also give you someone to talk to who knows exactly what you are going through (if both parties are willing of course, which we were in my case). You can also help each other collect proof and double checking the facts of the A.

Speaking of STDs we were tested and negative for all diseases.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, February 24th (Monday)

THREE:
Despite advise from good people on this board and elswhere not to, we actually went to one of the "crime scenes". We spent time in the same café, took the same walks and discussed bothe the A and other things and life in general. My WW was fine with this and kinda liked the idea. She even booked the same hotel and the exact same hotel room!!! Weird, sick, but good. Really good. Think about if the "erase and tape over" thing could be something for you. We liked it. However, the trip also lead to the discovery of more trickle truthing... Difficult for me to handle, a blow to the trust, but necessary at the same time.

I think we are now at a stage in our process when pretty much everything is out in the light of day. There may still be a couple of lies and half-truths out there, but I do feel the only reason they are not discovered yet is that my WW told them in the beginning and forgot about them, I haven't asked about anything related to them so they have not been brought up again. I am starting to realize what a toll this takes on my WW too and I remain hopeful we may find a solution that works for us. Having said that though, see number FOUR below:


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, February 24th (Monday)

FOUR:
I asked my WW to leave the house for a week or so (!). I need time alone and time with the kids. She was shocked and felt I all of a sudden had changed my mind, but in reality two things had happened. Firstly: I think processing the A finally caught up with me, having been away on vacation and the playing charades for friends and family for weeks had not given me the chance to sort through my thought and feelings before.
Secondly, I managed to restore the erased text messages on my WW's iPhone. There were lots of them. LOTS!!! Over 2000 (two thousand!) between Nov-Jan. Very explicit, very hurtful, very everything. Even though she had told me before that they texted a lot, and that some texts were sexually explicit, nothing she had said prepared me for what I saw when I restored the messages. It was like re-living Dday again, and it became to much to handle.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, February 24th (Monday)

The brother was extremely upset, disappointed and angry with her and could not believe his ears.

This is a big positive for you both, RawDeal, even though I'm sure it was painful. Affairs kept secret have only positive feedback loops between the two cheating partners. Disclose to other parties of importance (family, close friends) can destroy the collusive circuit and introduce powerful negative feedback loops to the Wayward parties, thus making it much more difficult to preserve the former delusion.

It also lets the Betrayed finally have a positive feedback loop. It helps so much to know you have allies of personal importance to the Wayward advocating your case and/or sharing your outrage / disappointment.

I'm really glad you had this little victory. I hope you've many more to come!


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Raw - it certainly seems that you both are well on your way to recovery.. You wife seems to be making all the right moves. Just don't let he back down on working on herself and fixing her why's.

I totally get the need to go back the scene of the crime thing. As long as you can stand to do it. I was the same way I wanted to reclaim my H in many ways. More to with physical and emotional stuff than places and so forth, but his A happened out of town, and his need to travel to that town no longer existed, had it been in my own backyard, it may have been different.

Take your time with healing, and don't let it upset you if you end up having some days here and there where you hate your W, or what she has done, and can hardly stomach looking at her. It is all part of the healing. Take time for you.

(((and strength))))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8228 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Secondly, I managed to restore the erased text messages on my WW's iPhone. There were lots of them. LOTS!!! Over 2000 (two thousand!) between Nov-Jan. Very explicit, very hurtful, very everything. Even though she had told me before that they texted a lot, and that some texts were sexually explicit, nothing she had said prepared me for what I saw when I restored the messages. It was like re-living Dday again, and it became to much to handle.

I assume she knows you've seen these?

I had to go through a similar second D-Day, although the texts were not particularly sexual. Months after confession, the OMW emailed me all of my WW's texts during the affair-- though not her husband's half of the exchange. It was pretty grueling -- mostly because it gave a specific voice to an affair I'd experienced mostly via my wife's cold behavior towards me and via my imagination.

Having a timeline of texts-- knowing what kinds of things my WW was saying on particular days was a new trauma. Seeing what kinds of lovey-dovey bullshit she was texting on the two nights I was closest to suicide was especially hard.

When she saw them, and read them anew, it only horrified her all the more. She was so ashamed and disgusted with herself, particularly since she was now seeing the OM's amoral self-centeredness through clear eyes.

I know you both aren't there yet. But I do hope, with time and commitment, you can reach that place. You are taking the right steps. Be strong as you can be, even in the midst of new traumas like this. Keep proving you're the Better Man. You can't make your Wayward Wife become a better woman, but the more she sees your strength and momentum, the more she might realize what she is at risk of losing forever. And this, often more than anything else, can prompt her to change to be worthy of you.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Thank you for your thoughts and kind words of encouragement! WW saw the texts and I had her read a few of them out loud, much to the same effect as you described Hosea. Raw and naked shame. Unfortunately they still hurt me badly. Delusional discussions about a possible future, how and where they wanted to grow old together, how they wanted to raise the kids etc. were some of the breaks from their main topic: graphic descriptions from memories of their encounters as well as fantasies, sexting, you name it. I am actually releived she's out of the house for a few days, as all that made me just want to throw up just looking at her. Hopefully it will be just a few days, but she has actually looked into alternatives to moving back, although that is the last thing she wants. She is deperate to move back to me and the kids. She has also arranged for IC. Starting next week. It will be som kind of very intense therapy, ISTDP if that tells anyone anything? Three hours a day for several days.

I'll keep posting updates and thoughts. I hope they can help someone else also.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
spartanburg65
New Member
Member # 42488
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Raw-

Thanks for sharing. I have followed your posts since I found the website. Our situations seem to be pretty similiar. How were you able to get the texts back from the Iphone? My WW and OM switched to trackfones in December and I found those messages before DDay but I would like to retrieve the Iphone ones as well.


BH 34 WW 33
DSs 4, 2
Dday 1/14/14
Confrontation 1/27/14
No Contact 2/2/14
TT over (I really believe) 2/26/14
9 month PA
Reconciling

Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Carolinas
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, February 24th (Monday)

It is possible to retrieve photos, messages, attachments, call logs etc from an iPhone even if they have been deleted, just as long as the memory space has not been needed/used by something else (apps or files). I used a software called: Wondershare Dr.Fone for iOS, and it worked like a charm. Got most of it back, though some of it was corrupt and had the wrong dates.

Good luck!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
spartanburg65
New Member
Member # 42488
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Raw -

Thanks.


BH 34 WW 33
DSs 4, 2
Dday 1/14/14
Confrontation 1/27/14
No Contact 2/2/14
TT over (I really believe) 2/26/14
9 month PA
Reconciling

Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Carolinas
TheWrongedMan
Member
Member # 42009
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

Raw, sounds like things are going as well as could be expected for you - am v pleased for you and well done!


BH: Me, 37
WW: 37
Together: 17, married 7 (what a cliche)
DD: 10/1/14 V drunk ONS, confessed immediately, repentant
Kids: None (though we were trying)

Posts: 78 | Registered: Jan 2014
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

RawDeal:

Yeah, I went through that particular pain, too. Reading texts which talked about the OM's & Wayward Wife's plans for the future.

I asked my Wayward Wife if, at the height of the affair, she'd planned marriage with this guy. She looked so hopeless wand broken when she had to admit that she had. (This was only a two month affair!)

Here's the thing. In my case, that was the OM's intent from the start. He was planning to trade in his old wife for a new one-- for a second time. My wife was so deluded about what that really would've looked like at the time that she honestly thought it would be some kind of Fairy Tale story.

The truth is, it would've been a living hell, and my wife sees that now. Yours may not yet, but if not, she'll get there.

The Fairy Tale future would've meant:

1) Becoming a step-mom to two different sets of kids, the more recent of which would hate her guta forever for helping break up a marriage and permanently wounding their biological mom.

2) The endless shame of being seen as "the other woman" and "the homewrecker". Even if my wife did not instigate the affair, nobody would give a damn about the nuances.

3) The loss of respect of her family for bringing shame on them for leaving a really decent guy and marrying a twice divorced man.

4) The loss of standing with friends, at work, and at church.

5) The inability to avoid either lying or being humiliated when answering a lifetime of "So, where did you two meet?" type questions.

6) The recognition that any future children would also likely be disliked by your step-children -- seen as imposters and walking testaments to their father's infidelity.

7) The agony of a lifetime of holidays spent around people who will not welcome you with pride but treat you with shame.

8) The gnawing fear that you've married someone with a habit of replacing his wives after he gets bored and needs a younger woman in his life to restore his sense of desirability and lost youth.

9) The loss of me! (Yes, for a brief period, I didn't matter much. But when the Fog started clearing, she realized with horror would she was going to lose. A GREAT GUY. And when she moved to end the affair, the other man revealed the REAL MAN THAT HE WAS by starting to stalk and harass her. He was desperate, and showed he was unstable, and all of a sudden, this Strong Better Man looked to her what he'd always looked like to me- a slimeball philanderer having a midlife crisis.)

I share all that to say that you needn't be too troubled about the future plans your wife might've texted about. The future she nearly embarked on would've been a lot less exciting and glamorous once she'd actually had to become a resident there, rather than tourist. Because the residents there might've hated her, shamed her, and made her future a living hell.

Read this if you doubt it!

http://www.emotionalaffair.org/when-the-other-woman-becomes-the-wife/


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
happyman64
Member
Member # 33212
Default  Posted: 9:36 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)

RawDeal

I am glad you asked her to leave.

Your wife needs to feel consequences.

Your wife needs to experience loss. Especially with such horrible decision making on her process.

Do not go easy on her.

Make her work on herself.

Make her find out why she thought she could hurt you and the kids so badly.

Make her earn her way back to you and her family.

HM


Posts: 828 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New York
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 6:19 AM, February 26th (Wednesday)

Sounds like the two of you are making good progress. That's great news.

Always keep in your mind as to what you believe to be consequences or punishments. While a certain action may look like either one, it is important to recognize the difference. Consequences, in my opinion, are great. Punishment....well, save that for the OM

You know better than any of us here, that your wife is punishing herself more than anyone. That is okay for her to do to herself, if it helps her learn from her past mistakes, and helps her redefine solid, clear boundaries.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2041 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
spartanburg65
New Member
Member # 42488
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)

Raw-

I think I'm following about a week behind you. I couldn't get the software to work last night, but in IC before MC today I told the MC that I wanted to download the old texts to find out when the A really started (was told around Halloween but some stuff didn't add up). The MC backed me up during MC and my WW flipped her sh*t and stormed out and threatened to kill her self, etc. The MC made me promise to get them downloaded immediately. I went home to get an old cell phone and she had erased everything (or thought she did).

WW was crying hysterically and we started to talk and she admitted to it beginning in April as a drunken hook up then with OM pursuing her and it not being a regular thing until November. For some crazy reason I feel like a burden has been taken off of my shoulders. I feel free of the lies. WW is wracked with guilt and remorse. We went back to MC at 5 today and had a good session. I feel the best since Dday.


WW has decided with prodding from me (and me getting the idea from Raw) to admit the A to her mom to make it more real. (right know no one knows besides attorneys and MC). I think we're doing it Friday and the MC agreed that it was a good idea.

I really think we have a true shot at R


BH 34 WW 33
DSs 4, 2
Dday 1/14/14
Confrontation 1/27/14
No Contact 2/2/14
TT over (I really believe) 2/26/14
9 month PA
Reconciling

Posts: 12 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Carolinas
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Content  Posted: 11:49 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)

Tush, Wronged, Hosea, Spartan, JB: Thank you! It feels great to hear from third parties that we seem to be making progress and doing the right things. I for one certainly feel that way.

Hosea, thanks for sharing your story, it helped in processing the information I found in the SMS text conversations. Based on what's in there and based on WW's account of it, she never really meant to leave me and the kids. I actually do believe her. Our relationship has been much too good, it's actually been great. Kids are fantastic, WW has had a lot of love, support and freedom (bit too much freedom maybe :-) She has not been able to give me a single reason for initializing and driving the A. Not one. She says she is happy and always have been. She does have a lot of insecurities and is an habitual lier (or at least a stretcher-of-the-truth). But the lies have always been very minor things to make har look a little cooler, a little better, a little "more". I have brought this up on several occasions, but generally accepted that it's a part of her personality, but she has now realized it is something that she cannot live with herself, and besides the A her lying will be a main point of discussion during her IC. The OM however did not have a good marriage, and when overcome by emotions caused by the flattering and invites from WW, he wasnindeed ready to break up his own marriage and start a new relationship with WW. This is evident both from WW's story and from the texts and emails. I personally think WW got a kick out of being able to manipulate the OM this far (though she has not admitted to this), I think it gave her a sense of power and boosted her self-esteem that she was able to do it.

JB - good comment about punishment vs. consequences! I am actually careful not to punish WW in any way myself. She doesmthat herself and is suffering the consequences. I am starting to see that she is really tough on herself. She is truly suffering for what she's done and I am starting to be on the lookout for suicidal tendencies. We actually brought it up twice, once alone and once in MC, and I have made it crystal clear to her that suicide in NOT and option, that the kids need her, that she has responsibilities to me, the kids, friends and others and that fleeing from all that would be unacceptable. She gets it, understand how cowardice it would be and would never have the strength to actually do anything, even if she started to think about it.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:55 PM, February 26th (Wednesday)

Spartan - fantastic to hear you are making progress too. I for one felt it was great to tells someone else, preferrably someone close to WW who can actually become your support. It also made the A more real, both in my mind but also in WW. She had to speak the words, tell the story, and see the disappointment and anger in her brother's eyes. Not sure if I mentioned it, but in my case WW's brother told me flat out during the call that if it had been him, he would have left her and encouraged me to do the same thing. Huge blow to WW.

I hope it works the same wonders for you in your R. Good luck! Keep us posted!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 12:19 AM, February 27th (Thursday)

By the way: WW found a small appartment nearby and will move out of our friend's house on Saturday. Good, she needs space and to feel that she is not intruding. Also I think it has been devastating for her to see the cozy everydaylife of our friend's family, the sam thing she spent the last 10-12 months throwing away. They also needed to find a way to explained to their kids whynall of a sudden WW staysnwith them. We will keep separated until I feel ready to have her back in the house (if ever).

How have you all done this? How long were you separated for before trying to live together again? Was it a good amount of time for you? How was the first couple of weeks months after moving back together? Thanks!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
kalimata
Member
Member # 42104
Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, February 27th (Thursday)

Rawdeal:

Thanks for posting the updates. Glad to see that you finally told the OMW. She deserved to know. I'm also glad to see that the exposure to your WW's brother was a humiliating experience for her. Most waywards don't really appreciate the full extent of their depravity until it smacks them in the face. The fact that your bro-in-law encouraged you to leave her probably made her throat sink into the ground.

Your WW deserves this and even more. I'm glad that you kicked her out. She needs to experience the pain of living a life alone away from her kids. You are in the driver's seat now and YOU get to decide whether R is right or not.

I suggest to keep your WW away for at least a month. This will give her enough time to fully understand the magnitude of what she did. However don't keep the kids away from her. Make arrangements so that the kids will see her, as young children definitely need their moms.

I still am a bit mystified as to why your WW would choose to cheat. In many cases affairs are precipitated by: lack of emotional connection, too much fighting, lack of sex, revenge, etc. But your situation appears to have none of that. She still has not provided a good enough answer in my opinion. You both need to look more deeply to answer this critical question. Else this will happen again in few years. Why did she do this? Is she inherently a selfish and untrustworthy woman? You didn't treat her badly, so why did she do this. YOU NEED AN ANSWER ON THIS BEFORE EITHER OF YOU CAN MOVE FORWARD. INSIST UPON AN ANSWER my friend.

....................Kali


Posts: 191 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, February 27th (Thursday)

Thanks for posting Kali.
Yup telling her brother and seeing his reaction and comments to me sure did a number on her.

And your are right: "Why?" - that's the million dollar question here. And it's one that I think both me and WW have been asking since Dday. I honestly don't think she knows herself. She has a low self esteem, and boosts it every now and then by lying or "improving the truth". I think she is a tiny bit curious about the world outside our marriage, but she knows at the same time that she could not love, or be loved by, anyone else like me. And I do think she is a sucker for validation/confirmation.

The why-question will be the main topic during her IC session which will be a series of intense psychotherapy sessions.

I'll keep you posted.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, February 28th (Friday)

Another update, an a word of warning about telling a third party about the A:
Today was a bad day! WW is now so broken and low that I am seriously concerned about her health. She's been at work this whole week but has barely been functioning. She is taking the shame, guilt very very hard, and is just about drowned in a combination of regret and her own tears. It is heartbreakingly difficult to see the person you love so close to, if not already over, the edge of insanity. Not sure what to do! She does have thoughts about hurting herself, though luckily I don't think she is at a level where she would actually act on those thoughts. Yet.

What really put her over today was the fact that she herself had her trust broken by her brother. She knew he was weak in that he has a hard time keeping secrets but still felt he was the best person to talk to last weekend. She (and I!) made it extremely clear that we did NOT want him to talk to anyone about what we told him and he promised not to. It turns out he broke that promise today when he told his (and thus WW's) parents! He was supposed to be our support and someone we could turn to cry or to just talk. Now WW's parents knows and theynare EXTREMELY untrustworthy with any information. As you can imagine this has created a s**t-storm of emotions and a family drama that is sucking everyone's energy and attention from me, my pain and the A. WW is incredibly angry and dissappointed, and so am I. If, when and how to tell anyone else was our (my) call to make, and besides creating unnecessary turbulence right now it also feels like there could be long term damage to our R?

Did anyone else end up in a similar situation after telling people you trusted? How did you handle it? I am trying to keep the brother-in-law's abuse of our trust separate from the A, but it's difficult especially for WW now that emotions run so high. And we were doing OK for a while...
Can't take this!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
Hosea
Member
Member # 42422
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, February 28th (Friday)

RawDeal:

Man, it sucks that your BIL broke trust and betrayed the confidence your wife (his sister) placed in him. I would hope her parents would have the decency not to shame their own daughter publicly. What kind of family would do that to their own?

I know right now it must be hard for you, still deeply wounded from your wife's affair, to want to take on the mantle of healer and protector of the very one who hurt you. Reconciliation is about the Wayward doing this for the Betrayed.

But I do think this could be an opportunity for you to show your wife your strength, your dedication, your character and love. Seeing you doing this might grieve her further if she's struggles with guilt about her past sins against you. But it might also deepen her own sense of your true worth.

Is it possible for her to get any time off work? Can you, as well? Is she at risk of self-harm? Can you find a way to get her to a place of safety? Away from her family drama, away from things which compound her guilt or shame?

You're clearly in a maelstrom of emotion and drama right not. I hope very much, if you feel enough trust and inner strength, that you can be her shelter from the storm. You may not quite be there yet, and if not, that's okay. But I hope you might be.

Moving to protect her in crisis does not mean making permanent commitments about your marriage future, nor does it mean abandoning the hard work SHE will have to do to heal YOUR wounds and restore your trust.

It just means putting her needs ahead of your own for a time. Showing her that you're the kind of man who does that, even for someone who didn't do that for him. She'd be a fool to let that get away.

Please keep us posted, RawDeal.


John 8:10-11: "Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Did they not condemn you?”

“No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”


Posts: 106 | Registered: Feb 2014
ZedLeppelin
Member
Member # 40895
Default  Posted: 9:37 PM, February 28th (Friday)

You have decided to R, yes?

Then I would propose a balancing act:

1) Your wife needs to stop feeling sorry for herself. You are the victim here, and you have chosen to reconcile. She has been given a gift. Tell her whether she now wants to build a new marriage or continue to mope around. Any hints at self-harm should be shut down immediately reminding her of your two children who would lose a mother. Schedule IC for her regardless.

2) Shield your wife. If you asked your BIL to keep this a secret i would contact him and dress him down. Your wife betrayed you, and by telling other people your BIL now also betrayed you. He now no longer has any moral high ground to stand on. As a consequence i would cut him out of your life for a small period of time. If her parents start digging their nose into it, threaten to cut them off too.

I realize that #2 may be harsh, but i am in the point of my life where i do not take any drama-related crap from anyone anymore (including family). And you know what - my life is infinitely better.


Posts: 171 | Registered: Oct 2013
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Concerned  Posted: 5:35 AM, March 1st (Saturday)

Hosea and Zed, this is funny: I started following your advice almost to the letter, even before you had posted them! That has got to mean something. :-) Thanks for making me feel and understand that it was the right thing to do - I just could not take my wife feeling betrayed and had to step in and shelter and comfort her, and was concerned that it would be counterproductive (on top of being a difficult thing for me to manage when my whole life has just been turned upsidedown).

I think we are now out of the worst of the BIL crisis, and I have managed to steer the BIL betrayal away from WW's, to make sure the feelingsmand consequences from both does not co-mingle too much and feed off of each other.

Exhausting!

Oh, and to answer your question Zed : yes I have decided I want to give WW and us a second chance, but I have not yet communicated that clearly to WW, only indicated that in general I guess that would be preferable. Not sure when and how to let her know I want to try for real. Also - would a common goal to R automatically mean we should move in together again? What is everyone's opinion on that?

Thanks!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 6:01 AM, March 1st (Saturday)

Raw,

Like Hosea and Zed stated, if you are attempting, or actually in R, then remember---she is still your wife. She, and you, were wronged. You have every right(and expectation) to defend her.

I know it seems difficult right now to stand up for the one who started this whole avalanche, but that is also a responsibility to your commitment. You are CHOOSING to R with your WW. With that commitment, come the vows that you took when you married. Sure, there are some differences now, but for the most part, the same rules apply. What if your brother in law betrayed you and your WW 2 years ago, when infidelity was not in the picture?

The answer is, you stand up for what is right. And you defend your wife. And although your wife is hurting very badly, she needs to find the strength to stand behind you. This is supposed to be TEAM RAWDEAL.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2041 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:49 AM, March 1st (Saturday)

THANKS jb!


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, March 1st (Saturday)

About R:
What are the steps I need to take? Anything in particular I should keep in mind? What are the signs inside myself and in my WW that I should look out for? I am not even close to be able to forgive her yet, do I have to in order to start the process? Is there a definite end to reconciliation? Or will it go on and on until I die? Is it something that you actively "start", or would you describe it as something that just happens?


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
TOMTEFAR
Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 4:21 AM, March 2nd (Sunday)

About R:
What are the steps I need to take? Anything in particular I should keep in mind? What are the signs inside myself and in my WW that I should look out for? I am not even close to be able to forgive her yet, do I have to in order to start the process? Is there a definite end to reconciliation? Or will it go on and on until I die? Is it something that you actively "start", or would you describe it as something that just happens?

First of all "end to R" No there realy isn't an end to R. For some they say that they are reconsiled after a while (Years most often). For others they are in R for the rest of their lives. It's individual.

It's not nessesary (or even possible I Think) to give forgiveness Before R. THe betrayal is just to great. What you need though is willingness and intent to work towards forgiveness. THose that say that they have forgiven shortly after DD I Think are lying.

As the first steps to begin R. I would sugggest you sit down, with a lot of available time for you both, with your WS and create a plan. THis plan should contain what your WS needs to do and what you need to do. You must both agree to this plan. The plan should include all things you need to be able to begin trust your W again as well as Everything you need to be able to work towards forgiveness. This plan should be updated continiously in the future. I Think that the plan should be heavily weighted in your favor (meaning your WS have to do the Heavy lifting). In the future you should even out this plan to adress things you can do better in the M.

What you should look at is her actions and that they match her Words.


Posts: 105 | Registered: May 2013
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Concerned  Posted: 9:52 AM, July 31st (Thursday)

Hi! It's been a couple of months, but now I'm back. I felt I owed the people who cheered and listened and commented an update... It's been a tough spring and summer. You may remember me finally asking my WW to move out. That really did the trick and she finally understood the gravity of the situation. She stayed in a rented room for about 4 weeks, and I then asked her to move back in with me and the kids. During this time she broke down completely and there is now no traces of lies anywhere in her stories, and her actions reallly support her will to be open, honest and transparent. I have not your fully committed to reconciliate with her, but I have let her know that it is my intention to do so. I have made no new promises to her, so formally we are still broken up. My message to her is that I'm willing to try, and that I "want to want" to try again. I fully beloeve she loves me more than ever, and that we would have a great future together, BUT: I have an EXTREMELY hard time getting over the graphic images of her having sex with other men that has been a filter over my eyes the last 6 months. You may remember that we were both virgins when we met, and while she is still my "only" she is no longer pure for me. I realize most people have had multiple sex partners by the time they meet the love of their life, but we hadn't and that was a huge deal to me, something I truly cherished as something unique and fantastic. This is something that is lost and wasted forever. i am still "pure" for her, which brings me to the other issue I have remaining: I am now extremely jealous of the fact that she has had an adventure, that she has felt the excitement, the tension, the butterflies, the joy and happiness of getting intimate both emotionally and physically with another man. I have never felt the urge to do this myself as I truly always loved my wife, but now, now things have changed and I feel that it is "unfair" that she gets to eat the cake and keep it. Not sure how to handle this. At all! She understands my feelings on this topic but can say nothing more on the subject. I am not sure I can re-choose my wife without knowing what else is out the, without having experienced something simular to what she did. And I am scared to death that I will "wake up" when I'm 70 years old realizing I missed something in life that I am going to regret forever.

How have you felt about all this? Does anyone share my concerns? What did you do? I feel so so so lost and confused.

I really do not feel like I want revenge, but I can't deny that a part of me truly wants her to undestand the pain she has put me and our family through.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, July 31st (Thursday)

Edit: delete double post.

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 11:07 AM, July 31st (Thursday)]


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

I am now extremely jealous of the fact that she has had an adventure, that she has felt the excitement, the tension, the butterflies, the joy and happiness of getting intimate both emotionally and physically with another man. I have never felt the urge to do this myself as I truly always loved my wife, but now, now things have changed and I feel that it is "unfair" that she gets to eat the cake and keep it. Not sure how to handle this. At all! She understands my feelings on this topic but can say nothing more on the subject. I am not sure I can re-choose my wife without knowing what else is out the, without having experienced something simular to what she did.

I had a lot before I got married. There is only one "first love." Sex does not even have to be involved, but there is nothing like your first. It might be better with your next one, but it is different.

There is no way to do what you are saying you want to do without committing physically and emotionally and being totally into the other woman. Once you do it, you will have no desire for your wife until AFTER your affair with other woman has run its course, which may not be until after you are married to the other woman.

Your kids deserve better. They already have one parent who went off the deep end, now they've got another one ready to turn things upside down. You'll drive your wife over the edge at the same time you are off the deep end. They'll have no one.

Up until this point, you seemed a little more well-thought-out than this. How much thought and planning have you put into this? Try to write out, step by step, how all of this is going to play out, in some level of detail, from beginning to end.

Where are you going to meet this woman to have an affair with? Will she be married so you're breaking up another family? Or single so ultimately you will be breaking someone's heart? Will you be honest, that you are doing it to see how it feels because your wife did it to you?

Your wife was mentally weak, much weaker than you, much more emotional and less logical than you, and always has been. She was able to fool herself during the affair. Will you be able to fool yourself the same way she did?

Think this thing out.


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

Just wanted to add that I know it hurts, it's unbalanced, basically life is not fair. You've gone through some things that aren't good, so have I, your wife cheating is one of those. Bad things have happened to us, not just the cheating, but things that really were worse than the cheating. You don't have a choice, and no matter what you do, it won't make the hurt go away, not the hurt from the other bad things or the hurt from the cheating. Only time will do that.

Either you want to give it a try with your wife or you don't. This thing about exploring another woman may be a temporary diversion, but your problems and hurt will still be there when it's over. It won't take any of that away, and then you'll have a whole big load of additional problems on top of it.


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 9:20 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

Just wanted to add that I know it hurts, it's unbalanced, basically life is not fair.

I will 2nd that.

Raw, you are never going to even the field. You also have to realize that if your WW is truly remorseful, then there are no more butterflies. All that is left is disgust and self-loathing. Is that what you are in search of?

Look---I just got bombed with an unseen D-day 3 weeks ago. I am still semi-numb. But just because my WW is possibly broken beyond repair, there is NO FUCKING WAY ON EARTH that I am going to lower myself to her level. Everything moral that I have stood for up to now, I would be deliberately throwing away.

Like you, I have to lick my wounds, and be the best person that I can be. And believe me---I am all about an-eye-for-an-eye, but debasing myself isn't going to obtain that goal. What you need to do, is either accept that this has happened, and move forward, or not accept what has happened...and leave the relationship. If you can't get past her betrayal, then there is nothing wrong with exiting this relationship. You don't owe her anything more than being true to yourself.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2041 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Question  Posted: 12:11 AM, August 1st (Friday)

Thanks to the kind and intelligent souls out there who reads and responds to my ranting. As you may have seen from some of my previous posts the idea of exploring other women is not a new one for me. I have had it on and off during the entire time since d-day.

Some additional background may be in order to convey a better understanding of my situation and thoughts occupying my mind: I met my wife when we were both 16, and for me it was love at first sight. I have never ever kissed, cuddled, slept with or even flirted with another woman. Ever. Never felt the touch of another woman's fingers, on my skin, breasts in my hands. I realize I would not be able to replicate what my wife has done to me, and that is not the point. I don't want to turn things upside down. I don't want revenge. It's not about an eye for an eye. I don't want to hurt her.
I want to help me.
I want to live a little.
I want to not come to my senses when I'm too old and feel I missed out.

I know it would be "just" sex. But it isn't "just" sex to me. It is an experience I have never had. Perhaps this is easily dismissed by those who have had plenty, for whom it is no big deal. I haven't even kissed another woman. Not that there has been a lack of opportunity. If had many women courting me and flirting with me. But I have never ever acted on it because of my commitment to my wife whom I loved, and still love in many ways. How many of the fantastic people here have never had anyone else, never had something even remotely emotional, sensual, sexual with another person than their cheating spouse? That would be really interesting to know.

I have always kept my high morals, always always taken the high road. I am tired of it. Look at where it has gotten me. I am tired of always making the right choices, being the bigger man, being too nice.

If I somehow decided, and found a way, to act on my feelings I would NEVER do anything with someone already in a relationship. I do not want to break a marriage or even someone's heart. I would be open and honest. Perhaps a ONS after a night at the club/pub. I might tell my wife, I might not. I might give her the choice if she wanted to know. I don't want approval for what I'm thinking about doing, but I do want a reality check. And I really do appreciate you all helping out! How much of a mess am I? How stupid and wrong are my thoughts and feelings? How much of an idiot would I be for doing this? Has anyone out there done something similar and can share their thoughts and feelings before during and after?


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 12:38 AM, August 1st (Friday)

I'm going to give you a 2x4 because I think you need it. I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

act like a man! either divorce your wife and go find other women or suck it up and be a faithful husband and good father.

You know, it's not just about you and your wife. you have children. do you care about them? do you not realize you're risking their health, well-being, and family so that you and your wife can play russian roulette with your marriage?

you want your wife to be waiting for you on the side while you go try out other women? Doesn't that sound familiar? that's what your wife did to you. do you want to be that kind of person?


if you want to get divorced, act like a man and do it. I can respect that.

Otherwise, you need to tough it out and be a good husband and father. What your wife did has no bearing on who you are.


just my thoughts......

i know this hurts. and life isn't fair. but you decide what kind of man you are. as for me? I choose to do the right thing, even if no one else does. I hope you feel the same way.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 12:43 AM, August 1st (Friday)

By the way, JB brought up something that got my head spinning:
"... if your WW is truly remorseful, then there are no more butterflies. All that is left is disgust and self-loathing."

This is exactly how my WW describes it to me. And a part of me believes and want to believe that this is all that is left. BUT, another part of me has this lingering feeling that there is something still there (not that there is ANYTHING in her behavior to support it), something shimmering and glowing, treasured memories of stolen moments, a joy of having gotten the chance to once again experience the butterflies and the excitements. Perhaps the other man is not important and may have faded from memory and former glory, but the FEELING may still be there somewhere.

What do you think? Could I have a point here? Perhaps this question is better asked in another thread where involved spouses can also weigh in...?


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 12:55 AM, August 1st (Friday)

ok

I can respect that without feeling like kicking your ass. and I say that because i think good men, real men, honest, faithful, and courageous men, need to look out for each other. this shit sucks. but you can get through it.

you are going to wonder about what's in her mind for a long time. i'm sorry. you are. i still wonder about what's in my wife's mind over a year out. it's natural. we have discovered we can't trust them. and... more importantly, we can't trust ourselves to know what is going on in their minds. because we thought we knew them, but found out how wrong we were.

you need to remember that YOU are the prize. You're the good, honest, loyal man. She has proven she doesn't deserve you. She knows this, trust me. So what do you do? You watch her. She has to earn the trust back. And she won't be able to do it for quite some time. years.

But I believe it can be done.

as far as sex adventures? take it out on your wife. go bang her on the hood of a car by the beach. go out at midnight and do it on the lawn. bend her over the kitchen table. you may find you both like it immensely. it helped me.

be the man you can always look in the mirror. if it were easy, then good men wouldn't be so hard to find. have faith in yourself. be confident and secure that you are a good man.

good luck friend.

[This message edited by mike7 at 12:57 AM, August 1st (Friday)]


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:57 AM, August 1st (Friday)

How much of a mess am I?

A bunch, can't be helped. The pain is unbelievable and incomparable.

How stupid and wrong are my thoughts and feelings?

They're not, we've all(for the most part) had them

How much of an idiot would I be for doing this? Has anyone out there done something similar and can share their thoughts and feelings before during and after?

In the I can relate forum, there's a thread called *madhatters only thread* check it out.

I don't want approval for what I'm thinking about doing, but I do want a reality check.

Ok
I have always kept my high morals, always always taken the high road. I am tired of it. Look at where it has gotten me. I am tired of always making the right choices, being the bigger man, being too nice.

Who will you be when you're not him? Who will you point to as the example for your kids?

It won't be worth it. Just because she values herself so little, don't you also belittle yourself. I know it doesn't mean much, but I'm proud of you. You are what a MAN should be. Boys should aspire to duplicate your strength in the face of adversity. Please, don't falter now.

Sending you strength brother.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2725 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 1:05 AM, August 1st (Friday)

5454 - well said my friend. you always have a better way of expressing yourself.

rawdeal - listen to 5454. he knows what he's talking about. you may also wish to check out the betrayed menz thread. lot of good men like 5454 there. you will fit in well.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 1:16 AM, August 1st (Friday)

T/J Mike, you're not shabby at all yourself. . You remember the struggle. I think Raw gets it. He's letting out that primal scream at the inherent unfairness. T/J

Raw, we're here. We understand. Let it out here, don't demean yourself. You're worth so much more.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2725 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 2:43 AM, August 1st (Friday)

Another 2x4: Don't fucking do it. All you have now are your kids and your self respect. Those are the only things that matter. Your M and WW, they might come back or they might not. You can't control that.

If you choose to have an A, you will lose your self-respect. You'll be in the same boat as your WW, and you can see that's not a good place to be. You need to be solid to give your WW something to reach for.

Otherwise your M will be -- forever -- adrift in infidelity or the threat of it. There will be no high ground for anyone to stand on or strive for. You'll pay, WW will pay, and worst of all your kids will pay, probably in ways you can't even predict or comprehend just now.

If your feelings of wanting to be with other women are powerful enough it probably means your M is not viable. Do the honorable thing and D. Otherwise, man up, be faithful, and work through this thing. Might lead to D anyway.

In case I wasn't clear: DON'T HAVE A FUCKING A. DON'T. JUST DON'T.

[This message edited by mhca at 2:46 AM, August 1st (Friday)]


Me: BH 47
Her: STBXWW 47 - Lklb5
Married 19 years
DDay 1: Dec 24 2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DDay 2: Apr 15, 2014
TT Bombshells 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

DS 15, DS 10


Posts: 417 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
meplusfour
Member
Member # 38958
Default  Posted: 2:19 PM, August 1st (Friday)

I understand how you are feeling. It seems inherently unfair that that your WW experienced the excitement, novelty and anticipation of a new relationship and now once that experience is over, she gets to return to her life with little consequences.

You have shared your feelings with your wife and she tells you that she understand but can say nothing more. With all due respect, she needs to step it up. She needs to romance you, and recreate the feelings of joy and happiness that used to exist and basically remind you of how she can satisfy your need of feeling wanted and desired. It will not be the same as someone new, but those feelings of excitement, tension, butterflies and joy can be rekindled if your wife is willing to try and you are receptive to her efforts. She can buy and wear lingerie for you, write you love notes, plan dates, give back rubs, cook your favourite dinner, purchase gifts, etc.... Remind her that you are giving her the chance that she did not give you - the chance to improve your marriage.

Sending you grace, dignity and strength.


BW (me)42
WH 44
3 daughters, 1 son
Married 10 years, together 13
DDay 3/14/2013, four year PA
In R
"Sometimes you have to accept the fact that certain things will never go back to the way they used to be."

Posts: 357 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Canada
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, August 1st (Friday)

Thanks jb, mike, 5454, wk55, mhca and me+4. Feels so good to just get a (in)sanity check. I get the message. Loud and clear. I am still torn. It wouldn't be an A. WW broke the deal we made when we got married, and I have made it clear that means there are no promises from my end until (and if) I re-choose her. An option would be to take a break in the M for me to figure things out. Having known nothing and noone but my WW I don't know what's out there. Is it realistic to expect I would choose her again (knowing what she is or was capable of) without knowing what else is out there? My kids are my number one priority. I live and die for them. But can they be happy with a father who potentially isn't, who may live his life resenyful and worried about his choices? I just don't know.

Good points meplusfour - thanks!!! She is doing some of what you are saying, but since she knows how I feel I think I could expect more. She should really, REALLY make me feel special.

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 3:27 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)]


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
cissi
Member
Member # 21737
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, August 1st (Friday)

What happens if you have sex with another woman and you really, REALLY like it? Like it starts to snowball and you don't want your wife anymore? I guess the next step will now be divorce, not because of your wife's affair but because of YOURS. Your poor children. They have no idea how close they are to losing it all.

Posts: 1394 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Southern California
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, August 1st (Friday)

^^^^^^^^^^^
What cissi said.


Me: BH 47
Her: STBXWW 47 - Lklb5
Married 19 years
DDay 1: Dec 24 2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DDay 2: Apr 15, 2014
TT Bombshells 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

DS 15, DS 10


Posts: 417 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
Uhtred
Member
Member # 40392
Default  Posted: 8:42 PM, August 1st (Friday)

Raw,

I for one don't hold anything against you for your feelings but it really sounds like you may want to divorce your wife. If that the case then do it and go experience what you feel you've missed out on. You're going to live a pathetic existence if you remain unhappy. Your kids will be affected by it.

I can tell you one thing for sure that sex without love isn't nearly as good and your not missing out on a damn thing. With that said if that's what you're having now then by all means put an end to it. Some folks just won't ever be able to deal with this shit and that's why the almighty himself excuses an individual from the marriage on account of infidelity. I'm not convinced I'm actually in for R with my wife and I've been trying the best I can for a year and a few months. It's not about revenge though its about me being able to get over all of the shit she has dumped on me and our children.

I always told my wife that sex with someone you don't really love isn't that good at all. I had a few experiences as a really young man but I honestly never thought about any of those girls when my wife and I started a real relationship with one another. She had never been with anyone besides me. Obviously she didn't believe me because she has wondered about it our whole relationship and had to try it for herself. Now according to her she didn't love him and it wasn't good but you could have fooled me. It lasted a little over a year and had no plans on stopping it. I had the luxury of text messages, pictures, and all the other things that go with this shit just like you had. It really fucks up your mind reading something your wife wrote to another man about how good life would be with him or how wonderful their marriage would be and how they'd raise my kids. Let alone the ones about how she couldn't wait for him to get inside her. I gave this woman all I had but it was never enough. She had no reason to do what she did but she did.

These things eat at your soul like cancer and figuring out how to let them go is something I haven't figured out for myself yet. One day I think that I get it and the next I'm completely clueless. I guess I've gotten of topic and started talking about me. The point of the post is that it's your decision man but divorce her first. You will always have the moral high ground with yourself and most importantly your children. Think long and hard before you act though. It's going to affect a lot of things. You may divorce and meet an angel that will love you and you alone for the rest of your life and again you may very well meet the anti-christ that will forever wreck you. Don't fear the devil you know, its the devil you don't know that you have to watch out for. Best of luck to you brother. Actually best of luck to us all.


Me: BH 32years old DDay 4-29-13
Her: WW 33 years old
“Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard
Some do it with a bitter look
Some with a flattering word
The coward does it with a kiss
The brave man with a sword”

Posts: 589 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Houston, Texas
MC_Jack
Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 9:00 PM, August 1st (Friday)

Hi rawdeal,

just wanted to say I am struggling with the same things you are and I have the same feelings as you. Being emasculated sucks, and lets face it there are few tools to address that.

Do I love my WW, or am I just pussy-whipped? Etc.

See my WW is now starting to hit menopause. Her libido is diminishing. But when it was time to take her sexuality out with 'a bang', it was with OM. Not me. Therein is my PAIN.

She was never really 'sexual' with me in our 20 years. Since she no longer needed to win me or get my approval, sex was an obsolete tool.

In her journal from 2008, she opined that she only ever had truly 'let go' with two guys in her past...and one of the names was OM (from a previous time, before I met her, in a relationship in which he did not want anything other than sex from my WW as a condition of the relationship). My name was not the other one.

So, I ALSO want to know (remember) what it is like to experience another woman in a visceral way. Not have an RA. It is feeling.

I have decided that if in choose that, then I will separate from my wife and be honest. No lies, no cheating, and no MOW of course.

I feel your angst. It is angst I believe.

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 9:06 PM, August 1st (Friday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" because I like the Music City. I did know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 863 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: Mountain West
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 3:01 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)

In one post you say you are jealous that your wife "has had an adventure, that she has felt the excitement, the tension, the butterflies, the joy and happiness of getting intimate both emotionally and physically with another man."

In another post you say "I know it would be "just" sex. But it isn't "just" sex to me. It is an experience I have never had. Perhaps this is easily dismissed by those who have had plenty, for whom it is no big deal." You go on to say, "I do not want to break a marriage or even someone's heart. I would be open and honest. Perhaps a ONS after a night at the club/pub."

That's apples and oranges. The emotional intensity of the affair is what all the big deal is about. If it's just sex, it kind of sucks. It feels good while you're doing it, then it's over, like looking forward to eating your favorite meal at your favorite restaurant. The good part of the affair is the NEW RELATIONSHIP aspect of it, it's waking up in the morning, thinking about the other person, getting to know the other person - the SENSE OF POSSIBILITY that comes along with a new love relationship. The sex alone, removed from those other things, is just a temporary sensual pleasure, like eating a good meal.

Imagine you have a friend who has driven only one car his entire life, and he's talking to you about how he wants to try driving another car, a "new" "used" car, but no matter if he likes it or not, he can't keep the "new" "used" car. He tells you he doesn't care if he can't keep it, he wants to feel the excitement, see how the other car handles, does it take turns well, how fast does it accelerate, is the sound system better, all of that stuff. Wouldn't you tell him that it's great to drive a "new" "used" car, but you don't want him to be disappointed, not to get his hopes up, after all, it's just a car, it's not going to be all that much different from the car he's already driving, it may accelerate faster or turn better, but not THAT MUCH BETTER, it's really going to be about the same, and in any event, he can't keep the "new" "used" car even if he likes it?

You are building up the "experience" in your head way beyond what it will be. If you have a full-blown affair where you consider the new person as a possibility for your future and allow yourself to fall "in love," THAT will be a very powerful emotional experience. THAT is what your wife had. If you just want to have sex with someone else, to feel a different person's breasts, feel the touch of a different person on your skin, a different scent, that will most likely be disappointing based on what you seem to feel you are missing out on. In my opinion, so not worth it.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 3:12 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)]


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 3:34 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)

I realize I would not be able to replicate what my wife has done to me, and that is not the point. I don't want to turn things upside down. I don't want revenge. It's not about an eye for an eye. I don't want to hurt her.

Of course you want revenge, you want to hurt her, you want her to pay for her crimes, you want justice, fairness, as you said in an earlier post, you want "balance." It's not ONLY about wanting a new experience. You can't bullshit a bullshitter. I have been where you are, I think most of the other posters here have been there, too.

BUT, another part of me has this lingering feeling that there is something still there (not that there is ANYTHING in her behavior to support it), something shimmering and glowing, treasured memories of stolen moments, a joy of having gotten the chance to once again experience the butterflies and the excitements. Perhaps the other man is not important and may have faded from memory and former glory, but the FEELING may still be there somewhere.

Could be true. Know way of ever knowing unless she tells you. I have good memories of relationships I had before I met my wife. But I don't think the memories would be good if they had come from a relationship where I was betraying my spouse.

Is it realistic to expect I would choose her again (knowing what she is or was capable of) without knowing what else is out there?

Probably not. But even with the infidelity, you are already tied to her through a long marriage and having kids together. You can dump her and start again, but it's not exactly a do-over. The slate doesn't get wiped clean, you don't start fresh. You will have an ex-wife who you are tied to for life.

My kids are my number one priority. I live and die for them. But can they be happy with a father who potentially isn't, who may live his life resenyful and worried about his choices?

Wow, that's just like the cheaters think. Yes, your kids can be happy with a father who isn't, they will not be wondering whether or not you are happy. They will be happy unless you take it out on them. You can cross that bridge IF you come to it. You having an affair is not going to help your kids.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 3:56 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)]


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 3:51 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)

I realize I would not be able to replicate what my wife has done to me, and that is not the point. I don't want to turn things upside down. I don't want revenge. It's not about an eye for an eye. I don't want to hurt her.

Of course you want revenge, you want to hurt her, you want her to pay for her crimes, you want justice, fairness, as you said in an earlier post, you want "balance." It's not ONLY about wanting a new experience. You can't bullshit a bullshitter. I have been where you are, I think most of the other posters here have been there, too.

BUT, another part of me has this lingering feeling that there is something still there (not that there is ANYTHING in her behavior to support it), something shimmering and glowing, treasured memories of stolen moments, a joy of having gotten the chance to once again experience the butterflies and the excitements. Perhaps the other man is not important and may have faded from memory and former glory, but the FEELING may still be there somewhere.

Could be true. Know way of ever knowing unless she tells you. I have good memories of relationships I had before I met my wife. But I don't think the memories would be good if they had come from a relationship where I was betraying my spouse.

Is it realistic to expect I would choose her again (knowing what she is or was capable of) without knowing what else is out there?

Probably not. But even with the infidelity, you are already tied to her through a long marriage and having kids together. You can dump her and start again, but it's not exactly a do-over. The slate doesn't get wiped clean, you don't start fresh. You will have an ex-wife who you are tied to for life.

My kids are my number one priority. I live and die for them. But can they be happy with a father who potentially isn't, who may live his life resenyful and worried about his choices?

Wow, that's just like the cheaters think. I wonder if your wife thought the same way while she was having her affair? Yes, your kids can be happy with a father who isn't, unless you are taking it out on them. You can cross that bridge IF you come to it, IF that gets to be a problem, IF you are taking it out on them.

Good points meplusfour - thanks!!! She is doing some of what you are saying, but since she knows how I feel I think I could expect more. She should really, REALLY make me feel special.

Let her know if she's not doing what you need. When I was where you are, my wife was doing a lot, but still there were times when I would tell her things to the effect of, "I have one foot out the door, whatever you're doing, it's not enough, you better step it up or I'm gone." Funny how these things seem to follow the same basic pattern for everyone.


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
happyman64
Member
Member # 33212
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, August 2nd (Saturday)

RawDeal

I understand where you are coming from.

Your wife and your relationship is no longer "special" because of her affair.

You feel she is "tainted". Because she has been with someone else now.

Are you still in IC? I think a good therapist can help you sort these feelings.

And you really have to not only decide you want to R with your wife but you have to be in R 150% for it to be successful.

You have to "choose" her for it to be successful.

And your thoughts show just how far away your thinking is from R.

You also have to realize that you let her back home.

Your thoughts and actions with her back home and being with her on a daily basis can actually hurt her as well. Because she will realize you do not want her right now, possibly forever.

That is as damaging to your marriage as her affair is.

So get some professional help and be honest with your wife.

Because your feelings are normal but if you act on them you could actually lose your wife and marriage for good.

Good Luck and I am glad you came back.

HM


Posts: 828 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New York
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, August 4th (Monday)

Wow!
Another slew of great comments, sharing and insights from you helpful and unselfish people out there. It warms my heart to feel the support and to actually understand that I am not the only one who struggles with these thoughts.

Yes, I feel that WW and our relationship is tainted. Yes, I hate that I am expected to remain "pure" for her in order for the marriage to work. Yes, I understand that what I would potentially be able to do is not even close to the same as her deep emotional involvement. Yes, I intellectually understand that "just" sex is nowhere near as powerful without love, and I am most likely making the experience out to be bigger in my mind than it really is.
And still... can't shake the feeling. Are there no success stories out there where the BS has at least gotten a tiny taste of the forbidden fruit witout disastrous consequences, where it may actually have helped?

To be honest I don´t know how I would solve the logistics behind it, and realistically nothing will ever happen. I guess I mostly hope to be understood and seen.

Even though I have not told my WW yet, I am now certain that I in fact really want R. I mean really really want it. I can´t see my life without her in it, and with just seeing the kids every other week. I guess I want the cake and eat it too. Ironic.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, August 4th (Monday)

A couple of mor things about me and my situation that I may not have mentioned before, in no particular order for no particular reason:
- Trickle truth lasted for about 6 weeks, but WW is now completely honest about every little detail in her life, past and present.
- WW moved back in after 4 weeks after having kicked her out and we have lived together as a couple for the last 3 months (though I have always maintained that I have not chosen her again yet, I have no promises to her since she broke those promises with her A. We live together because I "want to want", to make things easier for us and the kids and to make sure we do not drift apart.
- We have always had a great sex life. And with Hysterical Bonding it is now better and more intimate than ever. HB kicked in the day after d-day and has been going on for over 6 months now. So my thoughts and internal conflicts are not there for a lack of great sex
- WW has been unfaithful twice before. The first time was a year after we became a couple (back in 1994). She spent 6 months abroad studying and fairly quickly after leaving she got involved with someone, EA/PA culminating in a hand job. I knew nothing of this until she told me after d-day earlier this year. The second time was 2 months after we got engaged, 2 months before getting married. EA culminating in kissing, before I stumbled upon proof of what was going on (I gues that was my first d-day in May 2001). She was devastated, commited to and upheld NC, but I foolishly forgave her too quickly and I see now that no real understanding or change in her came out of that situation. Any sane man would have cancelled the wedding - I didn´t!
- I am not a religious man, but WW has a history with the church and some kind of faith still.

Not sure if the above matters at all but it could provide perspective for thos who comment on my case and those who are in similar situations and may learn from it.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, August 4th (Monday)

Are there no success stories out there where the BS has at least gotten a tiny taste of the forbidden fruit without disastrous consequences, where it may actually have helped?

I've never seen or heard of one where it helped, only hurt the marriage. Based on what others have posted, they don't un-fuck your cheating wife, they don't un-do the lack of trust in her, they don't un-do the betrayal, and they don't live up to what you think they're going to be.

Disastrous consequences? I don't consider affairs in general to be as disastrous as most who post on these forums, I feel like I've been through a lot worse in my life than my wife's affair. The consequences I personally find most disastrous are the ones the kids have to deal with.


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, August 4th (Monday)

PS.
Waywards are more than welcome to respond or react to my posts as well, though the forum rules for "I just found out" may require you to do so through a private message to me instead of on the messaging board...


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, August 4th (Monday)

I guess I want the cake and eat it too. Ironic.

Around here, we call that "wayward thinking". Are you sure that you want to explore deeper down this hole?

As for your WW, and her past, it makes sense that if nothing was learned from past mistakes, that they tend to relive them. It doesn't make it excusable, but it puts some logic into an illogical thought process. The bottom line, is that your WW better get her ass in gear this time, if she wants to prevent this behavior in the future. She has more deep-rooted problems than you or she may even believe, but nothing positive will come out of this until she commits to bettering herself.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2041 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, August 4th (Monday)

WW has been unfaithful twice before
That changes everything in many ways.

She has a habit of initiating contact with OM. I would not believe her in that she has told you the entire truths about the other 2 affairs.

Someone that has now had three affairs, is also a very accomplished liar and very accomplished at covering their butts.

The thing is, your wife did not just learn how to attract other men and she did not just learn how to lie to you. She has been doing this since day 1.

She needs to start answering you the big WHY she has been doing this all along. How many OM are there she has not admitted to.

I would think a polygraph is in order at this time. Before you can make informed decisions.

As for you having an affair, I don't see what it would accomplish at this time. It most likely wouldn't hurt her in any way as compared to how she has hurt you.

It would really get in the way of the things that really need to be focused on now. And that is how you are going to heal from this. And having sex with some other woman, would not heal you. It could cause further problems. So you go out and have sex with some woman, what are your plans if you fall in love with this other woman.

The thing is, you feel as if your marriage is now tainted, when to be brutally honest, it was since 1994.

There are some serious issues going on here and you are going to have to heal yourself from this.


Posts: 3794 | Registered: Jun 2002
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, August 12th (Tuesday)

Hello all,
I have received so much excellent feedback, comments, 2x4s and support from the member of this forum that I almost feel bad asking for more. But here it goes anyway:

When it comes to the privacy/integrity of the WS during and after attempted R I understand that many (most?) of you have demanded and received full openness and access to any and all phones, computers, logins, passwords etc. etc. etc. Correct? How have you handled this? To what extent have you really checked up on your WS? Do you tell them when you do, or after you did? For how long did you monitor their communications? And, a question of conscience here, did you ever read anything else of their communication with others than their APs? Are they fine with that? Do the WS not also need some privacy and unmonitored support from their family/friends? Did you read their journal/diary if they have one?

I would really appreciate comments from Waywards on this topic too. What is your take on my questions above? How did you feel about releting control and allowing full transparency? How much/what is OK, and what is not from your point of view?

I am not sure how to handle this as I feel extremely bad "snooping around", even though my "control" is very limited. Should I check more? (I haven't found a shred of evidence or indication that my WW has been communicating with the OM since D-Day.)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
wk55hn
Member
Member # 44159
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, August 12th (Tuesday)

I always had access to all of my wife's stuff because she was the one who primarily dealt with the kids' school stuff and once in a while I would have to go in and check. She tried to hide and delete stuff about the affair and since I never was looking for it, I never found it, except for one day when I stumbled upon it. If I had had any suspicion at all prior to that, I could easily have found it because she didn't do a very good job of hiding it. Actually, if she had ever changed passwords or was protective of her phone or computer prior to me finding out, THAT would have been a big red flag to me.

So, my wife never cared if I read her messages, she had nothing to hide except the affair. So, after the affair, it was no big deal for me to look at all her stuff because I always could.

I was married 20 years at that point and we really didn't keep secrets from each other until her affair.

After the affair, I checked up on her for about two weeks. I think most people do it for much longer, but I found it exhausting, and I realized from the start that she knew how I caught her the first time and if she wanted to do it again, she would take much more care in hiding it. But, after the affair, I was much more aware of signs to look for which, in hindsight, I realized I had ignored. After the initial two weeks or so, I would check up on her at random, usually after I triggered over something, maybe once a month for a while. I easily could kill a few hours looking for hidden emails, deleted messages, messaging apps, etc., and I never found anything. Once in a while I would THINK I found something and explode, then find out it was a stupid mistake on my part.

If you are going to spy on your wife, I would recommend doing it secretly so she doesn't know you are doing it, because unless she is careless, she will never use a method to cheat on you that she knows you are checking. Maybe place a keylogger on her phone or whatever she uses to communicate, because messaging apps can be installed and deleted quite easily.

I think after the affair you are more in tune with her behavior and thus you will get a gut feeling if she starts cheating again. Monitoring to me seems a waste.


Posts: 235 | Registered: Jul 2014
Topic Posts: 109