SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
Reconciliation
User Topic: Earning the BS back
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I have put a lot of thought into this one. Everyone is different, but for me the central reason I am still in my M, is because my W acted like she wanted me back. She wanted to earn my love again.

I have read so many stories about limbo and multiple D-days, yada, yada. They all suck. But at R's core, if the WS does not beg at some point, I just don't think its worth while.

Don't get me wrong, this is not how R should be established long term. I am just saying that a turning point in the shit storm needs to be some sort of groveling on the part of the WS. A serious re-adjustment in the power dynamic. BS on top and WS on bottom, until BS gives the green light.

It may just be what I needed, but I have a suspicion that a lot of people end up in limbo because they don't fully detach from their WS and put them in their place for a while. Put them in the proper corner of their life. Not central anymore. I am not talking egg shells. I am talking thin ice with the BS poking the water with a stick. Dance for me. Dance.

I am confident that if my W didn't dance for a while, that I would have left her.

Just waxing after reading a bunch of hard posts...boulder of salt here on shoulder please...but something to think about if you are either just starting out or in limbo.

take care....



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
marionwendy
Member
Member # 41303
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I TOTALLY AGREE! When I first found out in August, this is the attitude I took, and he was dancing for a few months. Its just been recently that I have brought him out of the corner so to speak.


BS-49
WS-50
Married-18
Together-21
Children-2

Life is not measured by the breaths we take
but by the moments that take our breath away.


Posts: 216 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: canada
Jovie
Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I partially agree with you. I definitely think it made the decision to R much easier because I begged for BS and knew from the start I wanted him to take me back. But this sort of rubs me the wrong way -

Put them in the proper corner of their life. Not central anymore. I am not talking egg shells. I am talking thin ice with the BS poking the water with a stick. Dance for me. Dance.

Ideally you wouldn't even need to go that far and if it takes too much of that, I'd question the validity of it all anyway.

I haven't read about the 180, but isn't that sort of the same concept?


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 211 | Registered: Jan 2014
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Ideally you wouldn't even need to go that far and if it takes too much of that, I'd question the validity of it all anyway.

Well, you aren't very far into this.

I poked that thin ice. A lot. He failed me once, was he going to fail me again?

I totally agree with you Wert. Down to the part where after the second dday I pointed to the ground and said, "beg." And he did, without hesitation. Did it really mean anything? I don't know. But it gave him another day to keep fighting.

A footdragging wayward is not a good candidate for recovery. A BS that allows it is on a bad path.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6351 | Registered: Jan 2011
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I'm not completely sold on the begging, but I DEFINITELY agree that the BS needs to detach and realize that s/he can be completely, totally fine and even GREAT without the WS around. As long as the BS is willing to stay despite the bad behavior, even if the BS is desperately unhappy/complaining, I think the WS can somehow justify absolute crap behavior in his/her head. I completely believe that you absolutely have to be willing to walk in order for R to work.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6638 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
NikkiD
Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I'm with ya Wert.


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 668 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

But this sort of rubs me the wrong way -

Me too, but so did the A.

Ideally you wouldn't even need to go that far and if it takes too much of that, I'd question the validity of it all anyway.

For me anyway, ideal got tossed out the window when my W started stuffing another man's cock in her mouth.

This is not a long term prescription for a healthy relationship. It's a path back to one after one partner has fallen down so far in there responsibilities of being a person of value, that their very value is called into question. I know this is not forgiving and all that, but I don't think the weeks or even months following d-day is a time to even consider forgiveness. It's a time to figure out if the person you are with is worth a lick of salt at all.

take care...



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
Lostinthismess
Member
Member # 39210
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

This is not a long term prescription for a healthy relationship. It's a path back to one after one partner has fallen down so far in there responsibilities of being a person of value, that their very value is called into question. I know this is not forgiving and all that, but I don't think the weeks or even months following d-day is a time to even consider forgiveness. It's a time to figure out if the person you are with is worth a lick of salt at all.

I agree 100%. One of the reasons I also agree the ws needs to take the anger without crying abuse and it not being fair. Prove you're all in. Prove nothing will make you quit. Then we can talk.


Dday- 4/4/13
fwh- harrypotter
'You just keep living, until you are alive again'
'I don't want perfect, I want honest'

Posts: 330 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Ca
cantaccept
Member
Member # 37451
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Wert, I agree to an extent. I never personally needed groveling or begging but I did need proof through action that he chose to be with me.

I need him to prove that I was worth the effort of everything that I asked for.

Now, after dday #2, he is still blaming me for his actions.

You need to have those standards that are important to you. It really becomes all about what you need from your wayward. If they fight or resist, it is not a good sign.

It is crazy but even now he is trying the exact same tactics on me again. Does not work this time. I learned from the first time. It would be all up to him to learn, to be proactive, to change.

So, I have filed and now it is just a matter of time...


Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely.

I would now like to be known as Can!

dday October 21,2012
dday December 20, 2013
wh boots5050
attempted R, it was all a lie

Divorced 8/5/14


Posts: 1308 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Connecticut
NikkiD
Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 1:06 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I agree 100%. One of the reasons I also agree the ws needs to take the anger without crying abuse and it not being fair. Prove you're all in. Prove nothing will make you quit. Then we can talk.

Absolutely. Until I see this..Im only married on paper...doesnt mean I will act single. I'm merely indifferent to the things a wife would do for a spouse at the moment. I care....but i wont be doing a thing about it.

[This message edited by NikkiD at 3:10 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 668 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
lordhasaplan?
Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Prove you're all in. Prove nothing will make you quit. Then we can talk.

AMEN! with ACTIONS not words.


For me anyway, ideal got tossed out the window when my W started stuffing another man's cock in her mouth.
Yep.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1883 | Registered: Nov 2010
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I got actual crying and begging and I didn't like it. It still seemed self-serving to me. The whole -- I screwed up sooooo bad and I want you back....boo hoo....woe is me. ME. ME. ME.

I was so far past the 'all about him' stage of life, even the begging pissed me off.

But I know what you mean. My husband worked his ass off with actions once he realized I was done. I didn't beg him to stay, or tell him why we should be together. I told him to go and have a happy life with AP and he cried NOOOOO. Now granted my husband ended his affair and confessed on his own, but the affair itself was just a (small) part of what the problems were. He had to prove a lot more than not being interested in AP.

I was talking to a friend about this yesterday. I'm the only GF my husband had who didn't pursue him. The others and AP made it clear they were very interested in him and went after him. I didn't do that. Not when we started dating and not after dday.

He had to convince me to give him a shot and that he was worth the risk. He had to earn it, twice now. This is the last chance he gets to prove to me that I'm (and us and himself are) worth it to him. He knows that and so far it appears to be very important to him.

[This message edited by DixieD at 1:45 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

For me, it was proving not only his remorse and his willingness to do "anything" to win me back, but that he would truly change and become the husband I always deserved. He had spent the previous 28 years of our relationship giving the minimum and ignoring my requests; no more! If I was going to go through this shit it was going to be because I had a vastly improved husband at the other end. So yeah, he jumped through hoops, but it nows seems to be second nature for him.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1727 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

A footdragging wayward is not a good candidate for recovery. A BS that allows it is on a bad path.

Amen

I don't know if it's a cycle or my imagination, but I feel as though there are many BS's accepting the waywards Rebreather mentioned.

Once I realized he was having the affair I was a bat-shit-crazy, bitch-boots wearing, hefty bag stuffing, pissed off woman.

If you wanted to be with me you had better prove it, fix it and make it worth it to me.

I think the total head spin makes a wayward know you won't accept the bullshit any longer.

If you want an A or your AP have at it, but you won't drag me through the mud with you.



“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3792 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Up until recently I would have agreed 110%. I made my fWS Dance and Dance and Dance. Man the hoops she jumped through all in the name of proving to me she was willing. And more importantly proving to myself that I wasn't an idiot for offering R.

The side effect of all that dancing though was an unrealistic bar being set. I know you said it is not long term. But watching that effort decrease over time has caused me to stop trusting the process. Where did the willingness go? Where did the Dancing go?

When i look at the Dancing realistically, none of those dance moves were actions toward my fWS healing herself. And that is the ultimate goal right? I am going to generalize and say that repeating the behavior with another A is all of our biggest fears.

The work that goes into healing is much more subtle and may not even be observable. But Iam basing the progress of our R on these grand blatant gestures.

I know my fWS was willing to do crazy blatant acts iin order to cake eat before why not again.


BS 39
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2553 | Registered: Aug 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

wert - from both your posts on this thread I sense a bubbling anger. Am I the only one seeing this?

at any rate, yep, agreed,

a lot of people end up in limbo because they don't fully detach from their WS and put them in their place for a while. Put them in the proper corner of their life.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 48
him: 52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4696 | Registered: Dec 2010
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I don't think my husband ever stopped dancing. Not because he had to but once the positives started to show we were both willing to dance, if that makes sense?


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3792 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
Lostinthismess
Member
Member # 39210
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I don't think my husband ever stopped dancing. Not because he had to but once the positives started to show we were both willing to dance, if that makes sense?

I like this. Instead of a solo piece it's a couple's dance if he stops 'dancing' I'm ok living alone. I don't expect him to kiss my ass forever, but if the effort stops that's a deal breaker for me. At 10 months out it looks a lot different than 2 months out, I'm sure 2 years has a different beat also.

[This message edited by Lostinthismess at 2:29 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


Dday- 4/4/13
fwh- harrypotter
'You just keep living, until you are alive again'
'I don't want perfect, I want honest'

Posts: 330 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Ca
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Thanks for all the responses...


I got actual crying and begging and I didn't like it. It still seemed self-serving to me. The whole -- I screwed up sooooo bad and I want you back....boo hoo....woe is me. ME. ME. ME.

Agreed that does sounds like self involved pity. I guess what I am really driving at is distancing yourself from your spouse, holding them at an emotional distance and seeing how they react toward you. It's an unfair test and dangerous, but I think it says a lot about who they are, what they realize about there actions and how they want to move forward.

When i look at the Dancing realistically, none of those dance moves were actions toward my fWS healing herself.

Spot on. I am not talking about healing here. That comes later. I am talking about a blunt redistribution of power in the relationship. I don't need you any more, I am not taking the first step here because you are not worth it...you take that step. Show me. Just as critical, after a while we as BS must walk toward them.

wert - from both your posts on this thread I sense a bubbling anger. Am I the only one seeing this?

Nice observation. I still have anger. I work through it every day. It won't leave for a while. For now it keeps me warm. I have let go of a lot of it....believe me...I was really angry. I have learned a lot about myself and anger through all this...I am not afraid of it anymore and I don't think other should be. There is a lot of difference between anger and violence. I am very familiar with my lines...Thanks for calling that out.

I don't think my husband ever stopped dancing. Not because he had to but once the positives started to show we were both willing to dance, if that makes sense?

One of the interesting things about metaphors is there openness to interpretation :) This is a more a 'feel' thing for everyone I think. Dance and beg can mean a lot of different things...My W never begged literally. I made just about all family decisions for a while. She was contrite. But the power had changed and stay changed for a while. Equality was gone for a while. She never even asked for it back. She just start acting in a way that deserved it. IC, talking to me about what she was learning, going on AD, etc....

take care...



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 2:48 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I don't expect him to kiss my ass forever, but if the effort stops that's a deal breaker for me.

Yep.



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
NikkiD
Member
Member # 38173
Default  Posted: 3:19 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Once I realized he was having the affair I was a bat-shit-crazy, bitch-boots wearing, hefty bag stuffing, pissed off woman.

If you wanted to be with me you had better prove it, fix it and make it worth it to me.

I think the total head spin makes a wayward know you won't accept the bullshit any longer.

If you want an A or your AP have at it, but you won't drag me through the mud with you.

YES!!!!!! This is exactly how I feel!!!! I wish there was a high-five emoticon just for this!!!!


"Spoil me with Loyalty; I can finance myself...."
ME: BS-33
HE: WS-32
Married 3 years, known 20
2 kids
D-Day #1 12/30/12
False Recovery
D-Day #2 1/21/14
LTA 5 years-ish
Riding the "Struggle Bus"
Living apart....

Posts: 668 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Midwest
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I agree, more or less.

For me, there's a weird dynamic to it....I guess I want my wife to want the marriage (and me, too!), but whenever she gets all-

"What was I thinking?"
"Oh, I'm so lucky you're my husband."
"You're my everything"

....part of me wants to just tell her to f*** off with that noise. Don't do me any favors, any lavish praises.

I have not really changed from who I was prior to and during the affair, with all the same traits she used to justify her cheating and unhappiness. I still have the same job. I still forget to do the same stuff. I still repeat myself.

Oh, NOW I'm your everything?
NOW you couldn't imagine life without us?
NOW you're so happy to be with me?

Where were all these realizations 14 months ago when you were effing my friend?

[This message edited by FacePunched at 3:50 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 2006 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

"Shattering" is a process that needs to take place within any BS if true R is to be offered. "Remorse and a desire to pay repentence" is what a WS needs to have to put the "f" in front of the "WS" and R the marriage.

I sooo wish I had hefty bagged upon my first DD....so what you say makes perfect sense. I held onto the false hope that somehow my orignal M had not been slaughterd by my wife, that my family was not under attack and being harmed by my wifes choices.

Caution to those who read this thread and associate your advice with the healthy 180.

180 is NOT a manipulation tool...it is a tool that helps you "shatter" effectively. It helps the BS fully embrace that they will be fine without their WS. It helps them break free from getting stuck on "wishing for a better past". It is about self discovery and self reliance....it is not about beating the WS into a corner.

Wert....always like your posts. This post is about "righteous anger"....demanding that the abuse stop and that retribution be paid for the damages incurred. Absolutely healthy and is in line with all that I believe.

Could have used righteous anger earlier then I did....but I am traveling my journey as best as I can.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 4:00 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3594 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Simple
Member
Member # 18814
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I think you've got something there. True-blue REAL consequence and a preview of what life would be without BS caring one whit about WS.

There's a fine line though of a BS dragging it out... and a WS who can't seem to figure themselves out and just keeps doing whatever BS tells them.


Love is a choice.

True love is harder to come by than soul mates. True love requires work.

Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. There is no cure for being an idiot.


Posts: 927 | Registered: Mar 2008
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I don't think my husband ever stopped dancing. Not because he had to but once the positives started to show we were both willing to dance, if that makes sense?

Totally the same thing here. The frantic speed of the dance changed, and we became willing to dance together. More tango, less jitterbug. (just to totally destroy this metaphor lol)


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6351 | Registered: Jan 2011
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

180 is NOT a manipulation tool...it is a tool that helps you "shatter" effectively. It helps the BS fully embrace that they will be fine without their WS. It helps them break free from getting stuck on "wishing for a better past". It is about self discovery and self reliance....it is not about beating the WS into a corner.

Where's that hand-clapping gif when you need it?


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6638 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
TrulySad
Member
Member # 39652
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I completely agree. And today of all days, this needs to be drilled into my WBF's mindset.

Usually I'm outspoken and feel pretty damn strong. Yesterday was the one yr mark of the first big DD. I thought "no big deal". Today, I'm just exhausted and sad by all this shit, and dont have the energy to post a new topic about this, and feel the need to defend my position on it. So thank you.

I agree 10000%. They sunk to such disgusting levels and crushed us with their cheating. If they honestly want us back....I want to see how far they will go.


Me: Sad, but I will survive

True Love: What I have for my beautiful children.


Posts: 443 | Registered: Jun 2013
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Could have used righteous anger earlier then I did....but I am traveling my journey as best as I can.
No truer words, my friend.
I have done a ton of work in the area of beating myself up for 'mis-handling' the situation.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 4:08 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 2006 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

I think I - perhaps we - need to draw a solid line here.

IMO, the WS needs to show unequivocal and consistent commitment to R in words, thoughts, and actions. That usually means bending over backwards to meet the BS's requirements.

I think that's a lot different from being willing to be the BS's puppet.

The WS needs to be willing to beg because she is totally committed to R, but the WS needs to maintain her self-respect, or she at least needs to be committed to regaining her self-respect.

If you're familiar with the great German movie The Blue Angel, I don't want my W to play Emil Jannings' part. I want to R only with a real autonomous person, not with someone who will debase herself to avoid D. I want a partner, not a slave.

I think that's what wert means, but I just want it out there explicitly.


fBH (me) - 70, fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 9940 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Tickingtock
Member
Member # 41411
Default  Posted: 7:23 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

(ETA: Upon further reflection I see that Charlie Sheen may not have been the best GIF choice )

[This message edited by Tickingtock at 7:24 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)]


Me: 31, exBGF, now married

Posts: 157 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: West Coast, USA
tryingeverything
New Member
Member # 42355
Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, February 19th (Wednesday)

Wow, this topic is so relevant to me right now that I must post for the first time! This is right where I am. My husband told me about his affair a year ago (it was over for 7 months at that time) and we have been on a nightmare of a roller coaster ever since.

He was so wonderful the first 2 months and really helped me through those dark, dark days. But then he became impatient with my many questions about the affair. And he would 'jump in his hole' when we talked about it - that's how I describe his becoming more concerned with his own shame than my sadness.

This frustrated me to no end as I had soooo much more healing to do and he wasn't emotionally there for me. But I spent the next 10 months fighting for us every day. I was consumed with recovering from the hurt of the affair and fixing the problems in our marriage. But it seemed the more I tried, the less confident he became in the future of our marriage. He would say he doubts he'll ever make me happy enough, that he'll keep trying but he doesn't have much faith in us, etc. This would drive me CRAZY and I would try so hard to change his negative mindset.

But then, I just stopped. Just last week I finally realized I am never going to change his negative worldview. This is the man I married 21 years ago. I am here because our daughter needs us to be together. And I am going to continue to work on me.

I am married on paper. I don't wear my rings. I will put them on when he earns me back. I was a needy mess last year. Unfortunately he didn't rise to the occasion and help fix what he broke. Maybe now he will.

Any thoughts????

Me 51 BS
Him 50 WS
DDay 2-12-13


Me: BW 51
Him: WH 51
DDay: 2/12/13
Married 21 years
DD 15

Posts: 17 | Registered: Feb 2014
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 5:56 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

(((tryingeverything)))

Welcome. Post often...it aides in feeling your feelings. And you need to feel to heal.

I'm sorry your husbands support has waned over time. My experience is inversely different than yours. Wife had zero remorse for months after my first DD....slowly found it over time.

19 months out now.....doing better.

Are you in counseling? Real life friend to talk to? This burden is larger than any one person was meant to carry. While your husband has a strin role in healing the pain he caused you, There are others who can and will help. It is through these "others" that much support has been found by me.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3594 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 7:05 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

Don't do me any favors, any lavish praises.

This reminded me of a process that I think happens. Early on, the lavish praises are used to give and receive ego kibbles and smooth things over quickly. They were valuable currency in the affair and worked like a charm with AP so why shouldn't it work on the BS. It's the first tool used to dig themselves out of this hole they created. And maybe it does work for a bit, until the BS's anger stage comes, and then it's clear that compliments and praises mean very little and aren't going to cut it.

Then when they realize the BS is over all this, finished with them, and ready to walk, remorse hits them and the praises become more genuine and heartfelt. That's what I saw anyway. And those deeply felt praises can be more accepted once the BS's anger subsides.

I want to R only with a real autonomous person, not with someone who will debase herself to avoid D. I want a partner, not a slave.

Absolutely. A lack of autonomy and a perceived power struggle or need for power is often what gets a WS into an affair in the first place.


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

I think that's a lot different from being willing to be the BS's puppet.

Yep that is what I am driving at and I appreciate the clarification. I never wanted a puppet. And this post is not about punishment. I think a person can relinquish a certain amount of power and authority in a relationship without selling out completely. I think that line is very different for every couple and person.

I would add that I was one of those that was lost and did not do this right away after d-day. I had no idea what hit me. I didn't start doing it until weeks after I discovered. I wanted to post this because I think the quicker that transfer of power can happen the better off the BS is. When a BS lingers in "I love her so much" that I think is dangerous.

I think I sound hard nosed with some of the stuff I wrote but that is with intent. It's it not about love. It is about breaking the pretty little fake world the WS has created for themselves and redefining how things are going to be. I so wish I would have done that sooner...but that is a different show on Oprah. :)

take care...

take care...

[This message edited by wert at 7:14 AM, February 20th (Thursday)]



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

This reminded me of a process that I think happens. Early on, the lavish praises are used to give and receive ego kibbles and smooth things over quickly. They were valuable currency in the affair and worked like a charm with AP so why shouldn't it work on the BS. It's the first tool used to dig themselves out of this hole they created. And maybe it does work for a bit, until the BS's anger stage comes, and then it's clear that compliments and praises mean very little and aren't going to cut it.

That is an excellent insight. That is why the BS is should drive the ship. They should define what they want not the WS. At first I wanted the love note and that crap. But that is exactly what that stuff is - crap. Part of the push down by the BS is to put them in their place until the BS can get a breath of air in their lungs and take a look around at what is really happening.

take care...



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

I have to say, at 13 months out, I get a much bigger "happiness buzz" from her being able to honestly express her emotions with some clarity. She has never had this skill, ever. Her being eager to go to-, and discuss-, her IC appointments mean a hell of a lot more to me than some "I love you", or "I miss you", or "You're so handsome."

Not to be a dick, but those other things? I bet she says those to all the boys....


"The thing that always seems to be shocking to wayward wives is the simple fact that the man you choose to reconcile with is not the same man you cheated on." - a friend.

Posts: 2006 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

Hi Wert, good to see you posting.
I am glad you brought this up. This topic I think evokes a quasi PC element at times. Be the bigger person, forgiveness is for you you, two wrongs don't make a right,etc.All of that dogma never really set right with me. I know it comes down to the unfairness bit, but explaining it doesn't it make it better either.

The anger sticks around for awhile and you have to let it out. I read so many post where the BS's anger immediately becomes "punishing," the WS. It can happen, butmost punishing is really expressing anger. It can feel like punishment I am sure, but the intent is not behind it.

I really needed to believe that my W was "all in," before I was going to let myself be, "all in." The begging was one thing that helped me. Listening to my anger without protest helped too. Knowing it was horrible for her and yet she stuck it out showed she at least had some "commitment," to working this out and was willing do things that were not easy to save the M. On the same token, just "staying" despite the hell she created showed her how I was committed. Right, wrong of indifferent shouldn't I have that assurance as well ? Just because the A was over did not mean that

The " I will do anything" speech is fine, but in reality most do not mean that. Saying this and then immediately or subsequently talking about boundaries ? How else would a sane person interpret that ? At best the first statement is dishonest. Why is the BS so angry when refused something ? Dishonesty is not a good way to rebuild trust or safety.

This "re-balancing " of the power dynamic in the relationship needs to happen. If the person who cares the least has the most power it goes without saying the WS, by having an A, created a severe power imbalance. The power dynamic has to get back to parity before any negotiation or talk about R can happen. Just saying you are sorry does nothing to restore the imbalance.

A H or W that cheats on their spouse deserves (for lack of better term) a D. They deserve to receive the full consequences of their actions. They deserve the shame, guilt and pain associated with. A BS does not, but gets consequences anyway. This is even if the M does not survive. Fair ? Not even in the same universe. Acknowledging that when the WS doesn't have to live it doesn't always make it better either.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2554 | Registered: May 2010
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

The WS needs to be willing to beg because she is totally committed to R, but the WS needs to maintain her self-respect, or she at least needs to be committed to regaining her self-respect.

Yes, totally. I like your distinction Sisoon, and the clarified direction the thread has taken.

I don't want a puppet. I want a strong, authentic partner. The wayward has a lot of growing and changing to do. It's a conundrum; you have to be somewhat patient while they work on becoming whole, authentic people, which at the same time not accepting too little effort under the guise of "trying." I suppose only each BS knows where that magic mix is. For me, I told him I expected perfection. 100%. All the time. He had no room for error. And while I know perfection is impossible in humans, I certainly wasn't going to set the bar any lower. He did his best to reach the expectation. Along the way, as I did the work I needed to do, we worked into a joint rhythm. Consistent forward progress was my mantra.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6351 | Registered: Jan 2011
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

The anger sticks around for awhile and you have to let it out.

Yep and thanks man for posting. Hope things are better. They are for me.

I remember our first MC telling me I 'had' to let go of my anger and if I didn't do it soon I would most likely loose my M. I told her to F-off. I told her and my W that they were afraid of a man being angry and if either of them wanted to continue a relationship with me, they had better get used to it for a while. Truth be told I was just fine with my W being afraid. Not physically, but on just about every other level I was OK with it because I was done with placating anybody. Just stay back and let me think this shit through.

At this point it still stirs below the surface at times as rachelc pointed out. I have let go of most of it, but I need to give it more attention now because I see it as counter productive for myself and long term for my M. I will talk with my W about it. She where she is with it.

They deserve to receive the full consequences of their actions. They deserve the shame, guilt and pain associated with.

All true, but I don't want her or us (because I still am living with her!) to stay there.

After some thought this is one of those things I posted I think to tell newly found out folks and people in limbo that it's OK to hate. It's OK to turn your back on them like they did you. To often I think BS's jump into fix it mode and "understanding" and they don't give themselves licenses to really just hate that person for a while. Detach and look at the world as it is, not as you want it to be or how it was. Don't be afraid to be angry and show it, just save the punching for the bag....

take care...



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, February 20th (Thursday)

But 100% perfection - is that something any WS wants to live under?
I thought I wanted this because after two of his affairs, I wouldn't ACCEPT anything other than perfection. There were bumps. HUGE ones, until he figured it out and honestly, there will still be bumps. I have bumps as a former WW.
Should I have divorced him because he got his secretary a gift on our wedding anniversary but me nothing? It's that kind of thing that happens that our MC said we have to allow for.
That said, I'm pretty damn tired allowing for the bumps to happen. I feel resentment because if he read more or got more out of IC, these bumps would be less likely to happen.
We all have the rules of NC, etc but, I'm not sure any human being can be perfect enough so that no other issues come up.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 48
him: 52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4696 | Registered: Dec 2010
wert
Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, February 20th (Thursday)

I like your distinction Sisoon, and the clarified direction the thread has taken.

Me too...I liken it to the journey post discovery. There are stages like in grief. It's messy, non linear but one thing, like anger, may be very useful at one stage and not useful at all in another. It evolves and has life.

Good stuff...thanks folks...

take care...



Posts: 1427 | Registered: Jan 2012
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, February 20th (Thursday)

But 100% perfection - is that something any WS wants to live under?

He is free to leave at any time if he doesn't want to meet my expectations.

I said it my post perfection isn't attainable, but it's what I expected. Obviously those two things don't work together. I told him it was up to him to figure it out. Maybe he was 99.5% perfect. If I set the bar at 90% then would he have only been 85%?


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6351 | Registered: Jan 2011
Topic Posts: 42