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Divorce/Separation
User Topic: Daddy didn't want to have you
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Concerned  Posted: 2:35 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I believe in telling kids the age-appropriate truth about why the divorce is happening. But I have something else that I struggle with. My ex did NOT want to have kids. I now know I should never have had kids with him, and I'll always regret it (having them with HIM, not regret my children!). However, I did have the children.

As children naturally do, they ask about their origins. What I've never told them is that Daddy did not want to have them. In fact, Daddy wanted me to abort them. Daddy would not to go prenatal appointments. He would not help me when I was on strict bedrest. Would not get me food, would not get me drinks. He told me when I was in the hospital with a threatened miscarriage that he hoped the baby would die and nature would take its course (baby did not die, thank God). He grew angry with me when I had Braxton-Hicks and would moan a bit from the pain (I tried so hard to be quiet!). When I fell & hurt myself, he would not take me to the hospital, I had to call around to the neighbors and finally found someone who's dad would come over at 9:30 at night to drive me to the ER.

I almost died during delivery, almost bleeding to death as well as seizing from a reaction to the anesthesia. He abandoned me in the hospital after birth, leaving me completely alone. He even told my parents not to come to the hospital, that I didn't want visitors, leaving me even more alone than I could have imagined. I was alone for almost 48 hours. The hospital assigned a social worker to me as a result. He refused to take a single moment of paternal leave. He would not drive me home from the hospital.

When the church ladies brought food over, he would not let me eat it until he'd eaten his fill. At that point the food would be cold. A few times he ate it all. I got nothing. Even though I was trying to nurse, he'd secretly put a finger in the baby's mouth or sneak a bottle, totally confusing the baby and making nursing even harder. One time I was nursing my son, my ex thought that he'd nursed long enough, so he actually grabbed my infant and yanked him off my breast, even though he was still drinking and firmly latched on. To this day I don't know how my nippled stayed on. When my baby was three weeks old he told me to choose, baby or him, and reminded me that a Good Christian Wife would always choose her husband.

He would view porn & masturbate while holding one of the girls.

On one of the baby's first birthday he told me that he would never forgive me for forcing fatherhood on him. That he would NEVER love the baby, would never accept children at all, that I'd ruined his life. He told me he would always hate me because of what I'd done to him.

SO, I don't know how to answer my children when they ask me questions about their infancy and wonder about their Dad's involvement. I try to evade without lying. They have occasionally asked questions which make it clear they have romantic ideas of their father staying up nights to care for them, or that their father made special trips to the store to get me food I was craving during the pregnancy. They've ruminated about him changing their diapers or rocking them to sleep. In truth I did it all as a single mom.

How do I approach these kind of conversations & questions? Their father wanted them dead. He hated me for bringing them into the world. He did everything in his power to make me miscarry and suffer. He was too dangerous to be around them when they were infants. Even up to the point that I kicked him out of the house he was still telling the neighbors how he resented being a father because of the financial burden. The kids seem to be forgetting how horrible & evil he was to live with. One time we were talking about how they used to sleep in my room. They didn't remember how they used to BEG to sleep in my room because they were so afraid of Daddy. Don't worry, I didn't hammer that point, I simply mentioned something about it and they didn't recall. So they don't remember barricading the door to keep Daddy from coming in & killing us in our sleep. The memory is fading about his rages and how he would terrorize us all with screams & threats. They forgot that it was Daddy who got rid of our cat a few years ago because he was mad.

Are they compartmentalizing everything? I don't know how to have conversations when my reality is so crystal clear, but they don't remember anything. I don't know what to say when they want to know about the tender loving care their father lavished upon them as babies, when in reality I was afraid he would bash their brains in if they cried. They don't know that one of the church ladies confided in me that he has been asking her to take the children & give them to other families in the church because he didn't want to be woken up at night anymore.

Yes, of course this is something to talk about with the family counselor. I value the advice I get on SI, too, though.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
whiteflower99
Member
Member # 13937
Default  Posted: 2:51 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Oh.my.god.
No advice, nature girl, but damned if you aren't powerful.
I can't imagine living in fear like that.


What are you pretending not to know?

me FBS
him idiotic sex addicted, hormone addled, porn watching, post pubescent male with a walking hard on for anything without a penis
4 kids 15 13 12 8
Earned my *F* the hard way; no longer defining mysel


Posts: 1701 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Greensboro, NC
careerlady
Member
Member # 16958
Default  Posted: 2:58 AM, February 21st (Friday)

OMG NG the HORRORS you''ve experienced. I am just shocked and appalled. Your ex had to have been from the 13th tier of hell. The sheer evil and level of perversion!

Ok sorry. You asked for advice. I guess I feel your little bitties won''t be ready to handle anything close to the truth for a long time. I guess I would say nothing when they mention their fantasies and if they ask whether daddy did this or that you could simply say "no" and if they ask why "he didn''t like to" or "he wasn''t there at that time". Basically trying to be as honest as possible without frightening them. Even if they start to realize he''s disinterested but fantasize that there was love there that''s better than the bone chilling truth, which hopefully won''t be revealed until they''re adults. Some of it you may even have to take to your grave

(((Nature_Girl)))


Me (BS, 35); The Snake (WS, 36) 13yrs together; 1 baby boy (DOB 7/12)
Serial cheater-Multiple OWs, Multiple D-Days
D by default 5/3/14!
In house 8 mos, moved out 7/1!!!
Summary: http://youtu.be/iaysTVcounI

Posts: 937 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Northern California
Amazonia
Member
Member # 32810
Default  Posted: 3:06 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Are they compartmentalizing everything?

I would think so. Our minds are such that we protect ourselves by forgetting or blocking things out. The fact that they are young, they are probably doing it much faster. (Side bar example: You see it a lot here on SI, when people are fresh on the heels of separation, how often do they look back on the situation they just got out of and in a way miss it and focus on the good stuff, or even create good stuff to help themselves cope? In relationships, it ends up making it too easy to go back until you remember why you left in the first place.)

Your kids' minds are protecting them, insulating them from the horrible things they experienced while living with their father. In a way, this is good, because it means they are suffering less, right?

It's also a really good reason to keep them in IC (not that you had any intention of doing otherwise) for a looooooong time, because this stuff will come back up. They haven't forgotten, I would guess, as much as hidden those memories. These things have a tendency to create issues later in life, so get them good and comfortable with therapy so they'll be ready to recognize that they need it later and go back in (if they ever leave) when the memories pop up or start causing problems.

ETA:

won't be revealed until they're adults

I meant to mention this too, but forgot - I imagine a lot more of this will come out/up when your kids are adults and start having kids of their own, and making decisions like who they want at the hospital when they give birth ("mom, who was there with you when I was born?"), take parental leave ("mom, how much time did you and dad take off?"), look for balance between mom and dad ("mom, did you exclusively breastfeed or did dad do bottles?", "mom, who got up with us at night?", etc.).

So while you may give them age appropriate responses now, much like discussing the divorce, you'll probably divulge more as they get older.

[This message edited by Amazonia at 3:12 AM, February 21st (Friday)]


"You yourself deserve your love and affection as much as anybody in the universe." -Buddha
"Let's face it, life is a crap shoot." -Sad in AZ

Posts: 13653 | Registered: Jul 2011
ruinedandbroken
Member
Member # 29250
Default  Posted: 4:39 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Omg NG! What a sick, twisted, evil dick! I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I would probably tell them as little as possible without lying.


“People who cheat feel that life is for the taking, and that everyone deserves happiness no matter what the cost. I must remember these tricks if I ever have my soul surgically removed."
Me: BS 42. Him: WH 41 2 Kids 6&9
Married 14 yrs Together 21

Posts: 1563 | Registered: Aug 2010
stronger08
Member
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 4:56 AM, February 21st (Friday)

What an evil sick person you M. I'd like to kick his ass myself. Perhaps you should hold a G2T in his hometown and a few of the boys from SI can pay him a visit.


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5593 | Registered: Nov 2007
soveryweary
Member
Member # 32265
Default  Posted: 5:02 AM, February 21st (Friday)

((Nature Girl))
I just don't have any words of advice, I'm trying to wrap my mind around what you have shared here.
You are so strong and brave. An incredible woman.


Divorced 1/3/14

Posts: 617 | Registered: May 2011
Lola2kids
Member
Member # 32789
Default  Posted: 5:35 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I am so glad you got away from that psychotic piece of crap.
My only wish is that he dies a horrific , painful death.
I think you tell the kids that daddy did not do much to help with their care. It's true. They don't need to know the gory details.
I just can't wrap my head around the evil of this guy.


BS: (Me) 47
Kids: twins DD(10)
WS: Him 49 (Together 12 years)
D-Day April 18, 2011, Him:out Sept. 11, 2011..moved June 27, 2014.
"They say that absence makes the heart grow fonder but I am growing more and more fond of his absence"

Posts: 1362 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Ontario, Canada
tryingagain74
Member
Member # 33698
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I would just say something like, "Your dad wasn't involved with that... I did that on my own..." Be honest, but don't editorialize. It's true-- he wasn't involved, and you did do everything on your own.

I'm sorry about how you and your kids were treated. I love how your XWH railed against you having children and did all sorts of horrible things to you while pregnant/caring for infants, but he was more than happy to get you pregnant, wasn't he? Why all the protests when he could have gotten a vasectomy, insisted that you use condoms, or divorced you because you wanted children and he didn't?

It's disgusting what people will do to exert control over others. Your having children suited him just fine. He could control you further AND bring innocent little children into the world that he could also control.

(((N_G)))


BS (Me) 39
Happily liberated!
Two DS and One DD
It matters not how strait the gate,/How charged with punishments the scroll./I am the master of my fate:/I am the captain of my soul.--"Invictus," William Ernest Henley

Posts: 3571 | Registered: Oct 2011
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 6:47 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Don''t let them know the full truth...please?

I still remember vividly each time my Dad told me that when I was born he didn''t care if I lived or died. He first told me the story of my birth when I was quite small, age 4 at most: I''m a twin. As my mum was giving birth to my brother, she got eclampsia. My brother came out a bit blue. Then I was born. My mum said that I came out awake looking around. My Dad responded that he didn''t give a fig about me and whether I was alive or not because my mum was could have died and so could my brother. He has repeated that quite a few times since in my life. He has absolutely no awareness of how damaging that has been to me and how I have never felt bonded to him at all.


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - Susp EA 'The Baker'
COW - EA/PA 'Fat Bottomed Girl'
COW - Susp EA 'MiniMe'

Posts: 840 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
Softcentre
Member
Member # 39166
Default  Posted: 6:48 AM, February 21st (Friday)

And I meant to say first, but didn''t know what to say...I''m so sorry you had to live through that. He is...no, there are no words...((hugs))


Me: BW
Him: STBXWH 'The Arse' likes strong but broken OW
OW - EA - 'Holy Chick'
COW - Suspected EA/PA 'The Ambassador'
COW - Susp EA 'The Baker'
COW - EA/PA 'Fat Bottomed Girl'
COW - Susp EA 'MiniMe'

Posts: 840 | Registered: May 2013 | From: UK
littlefoggy
Member
Member # 41429
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I hope he gets hit by a bus.

Not because he deserves it, he deserves far worse. But so the world will just be rid of him.


Me: BW 30
WH 37
DDay 11/12/13
Divorcing

Posts: 491 | Registered: Nov 2013
nekorb
Member
Member # 40306
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, February 21st (Friday)

(((NatureGirl)))

That is truly horrid. I'm so sorry you were subjected to that.

My first thought was some generic replies along the lines of:

Daddy has always been more of a hands-off dad.

Daddy usually let mommy do those things because I love doing them.


When they get old enough to ask pointed questions that lead you to believe they suspect the truth, give them the truth.

Daddy is a selfish person that is more concerned with his own needs than anyone else's. So, you're right, he wasn't the most attentive dad.


Awful stuff you went through NG. (((hugs)))


Me: BS 44; Him: WH 47 aka CAT- colossal asshat; Married 22 years
D-day: July 17, 2013, with TT to follow
D filed July 16, 2014, 363 days later than I should have
Psalms 27:14
Wait for The Lord; be strong and take heart. Wait for the Lord.

Posts: 1818 | Registered: Aug 2013
IrishLass518
Member
Member # 34373
Default  Posted: 7:15 AM, February 21st (Friday)

(((NG and NatureKids)))

I am so very sorry that this happened to you and your children. I think the others may be right, the NatureKids may be compartmentalizing for protection but it will all come back up again. Talk to the IC and have a plan in place for what to answer and at what age. I do believe that they will remember and it will all come up again in it's own time.


Me: 45 BS Divorced
Him: 45 Married OW
DDay: 07/04/2008
Divorced: 06/15/2011
5 kids: IrishLass 27,IrishLad 25, IrishLass 22, IrishLad 21 and IrishLad 12
"You can't run from trouble..there ain't no place that far"

Posts: 1701 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: WA
Balaclava
New Member
Member # 42075
Default  Posted: 7:35 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Your story is about the most upsetting and tragic I have ever heard. You are amazingly strong...your children are lucky to have you.

as you mentioned, I would speak to a child therapist or have IC regarding this matter.

Children place their own self worth from what they perceive others place on them.

I personally do not believe any child should ever hear that a parent "doesn't want them"...."If my own father didn't want me ...am I worth anything?" A dangerous place for children.

I am not a child therapist .... but would suggest you say that their Dad has a problem with expressing love. That their Dad has problems seeing what is good in the world and does not find happiness. That this is like being unwell. But the problem is in his mind. That their Dad has an illness with his mind and he can not see the wonder and the beauty of his beautiful children.

I would also tell them that I have enough love for both a Mum and a Dad and that they are very, very special.


Posts: 9 | Registered: Jan 2014
wildbananas
Member
Member # 10552
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I'm with littlefoggy.

(((NG and babies)))


Travel light, live light, spread the light, be the light. ~ Yogi Bhajan

Posts: 15380 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Now an AZ girl
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, February 21st (Friday)

NG, I'm sorry. What a POS he is. I'll hold him, stronger can beat him and you can keep your hands clean.

Yes, your kids are compartmentalizing. They are in their own *fog*. Society shows/tells them a father should be loving, caring and protecting of them. That was definitely not their experience, so they must have mis-interpreted something. If they just twist this memory a little, tweak that one a little more and forget about the screaming, why they had a perfect dad. Right?

You can see where this goes. It's one of the reasons the abuse cycle goes on intergenerationally. IC will be able to specifically identify issues. Glad you see that.

Again, I'm sorry.

ETA....XW got pregnant deliberately....When I was dumb enough to ask why she married me, she informed me that she would get more CS from me if we had been married for a while.

My son will never know that he was just a check to her.

[This message edited by 5454real at 8:58 AM, February 21st (Friday)]


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2683 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
MovingUpward
Guide
Member # 14866
Default  Posted: 8:36 AM, February 21st (Friday)

NG I would definitely be talking to an IC about this. Whether or not they ever know what has happened isn't the thing I would focus on. I'd focus on who their dad is and what side effects of his personality and interaction with the kids (or lack there) can effect the kids and have a plan in place so that if the kids need IC help that the IC is well aware of the background. Heck I could see an IC possibly wanting to work pre-emptively.


AKA Moo

Think of the haters in your life as sandpaper; they’ll scratch you up time and time again but in the end you’re polished, smooth, and spotless..while they end up useless

We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give.


Posts: 51851 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Big Blue Nation
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I would just say something like, "Your dad wasn't involved with that... I did that on my own..." Be honest, but don't editorialize. It's true-- he wasn't involved, and you did do everything on your own.

^^^^this.
And the fact that he wanted you to abort will probably need to go to your grave with you because as long as he is in their lives, I just can't imagine an *undamaging* way to say that to them.
His treatment of you during your pregnancies and after wasn't really about *the kids* so much as it was about him just being an cruel, evil bastard who cares nothing about humanity in general.....and since you all are *human*, you fall into that category.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7876 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
mof2
Member
Member # 40287
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, February 21st (Friday)

OMG!!!!! I honestly do not even know what to say. I was reading this with my jaw dropped!!! How did you live like that for so long? Your story is horrifying. The strength you must have! Hugs!!!


BW - Me 43
WH - Cheating Swine 43
Dday - February 12, 2013....a week before I was to give birth to the child I miscarried and 12 days before our 5th anniversary.

Posts: 313 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: DFW
StillLivin
Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, February 21st (Friday)

N_G you have already been given the advice I would have given so not going to repeat what others have already said.
But (((Nature_Girl & Kids)))
BTDT, just make sure you and the kids get the counseling and therapy you all need to continue healing!


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2210 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
Pass
Member
Member # 38122
Angry  Posted: 9:34 AM, February 21st (Friday)

Holy fuck, NG! I''ve referred to many wayward husbands on here as arseholes - enough to make the title totally insignificant for what he''s done. He''s a fucking monster. You should be very proud of the strength it took for you to first, live through that, and second, divorce him. I''m so sorry for all the suffering you''ve gone through.

I know you want to be honest, and I would defer to whatever the family counsellor says, of course. However, I would seriously consider never telling them this. Letting them know that one of their parents just didn''t want them may open up a whole new pile of issues for them. But of course, I''m NOT any kind of counsellor.


Loyal spouse: Me; Disloyal spouse: The Princess
Two sons: Now 11 and 14
DDay: Nov 15, 2012
Separated: Mar 2, 2013 after married 17 years, now divorcing!

The best thing about hitting rock bottom is that everything after that looks fucking fabulous


Posts: 1803 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
haysuth01
Member
Member # 29161
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the fact that your ex is walking around on this earth with a normal-person mask on scares the ever loving shit out of me.

I've never been one to wish death on anyone (minus my stepmother), but I think we'd all have to get together to throw you a party if he were to die.


XBS
Divorced 5/07.
DS-7! What?!
Happily remarried, B/G twins (5).

Posts: 219 | Registered: Jul 2010
KLinNoCA
Member
Member # 22195
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, February 21st (Friday)

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the fact that your ex is walking around on this earth with a normal-person mask on scares the ever loving shit out of me.

I've never been one to wish death on anyone (minus my stepmother), but I think we'd all have to get together to throw you a party if he were to die.

^^ this!!
I read your post and I am just sickened by how evil and perverted this creature is...... (I can't even call him a man)

Keep loving those babies of yours--


BS (me):45
STBXH:53
M 13 years, together 15yrs
4 kids (2 mine, 2 ours)
1st D-day:July 17, 2008
2nd D-Day: Nov. 20, 2008
MOW, as well as a former BFF OW--I was in an "open marriage", I just never got the memo.
Divorced his ass!!

Posts: 1200 | Registered: Dec 2008
HurtsButImOK
Member
Member # 38865
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, February 21st (Friday)

(((NG)))

You are such a strong, amazing person.

No advice, just wanted to add from personal experience that learning your father denied you or didn't want you does stay with a child for life.

There is no unhearing it once it is said.


Me: Awesome - 35

"I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel". –Maya Angelou

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be". –


Posts: 722 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Australia
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Thank you all for your opinions. I think you all now understand even more why I tried so hard to get sole custody of my children and why I've worried so much about them when they are with him. Besides the fact that he's a pervert who likes little girls, besides the fact that he acted out sexually with the children and was grooming them for later molestation, his complete sangfroid about them to begin with is frightening.

My kids are already seeing through the cracks in his mask.

Don't worry, I won't be telling them the devastating news that their father wanted them dead. I'm afraid they'll come to that conclusion all on their own. What troubles me is that I already have to somewhat prevaricate when they directly ask me about his involvement when they were infants. My "go to" answers so far have been along the lines of "I don't know" and "Daddy was really busy".

What else troubles me is that I can see him some day, in a fit of anger and an attempt to hurt them (because that's what he does), he'll tell them himself how he wishes he wasn't a father. He loves to say super cruel, hurtful things, the kind of things that yes, you cannot ever unhear and hurt forever. I do not sit around and dwell on all this, but now that my many-years long crisis of getting divorced is over, my attention sometimes turns in this direction.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
MCGar
New Member
Member # 20928
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, February 21st (Friday)

I'm going to get slaughtered but I'll share my opinion.

If the kids are already showing signs of whitewashing their terrifying experiences, then no matter how gently you let them know about his feelings of not wanting them; they will more than likely end up resenting you fiercely.
I'm saying this from a perspective of a child raised in a dysfunctional household. A child might tend to have emotional sympathy towards the parent that is more mentally deranged. They will give them more of a pass on things in part because how responsible are crazy people for being crazy + kids will cling to ways in order to keep the love of the less stable person.
But when it comes to the sane parent....well that is a different kettle of fish. You knew that he didn't want children, how he acted with them and how he was in general, yet you kept on having sex with him, getting pregnant and staying instead of fleeing into the night (with baby) after the first experience. You brought them into this and kept them there. From a child's perspective (especially once they reach teen years), why the h*ck did you not cut and run before even having the first kid. Unless this man was absolutely perfectly wondrous before pregnancy and did a Mr. Hyde as soon as you got pregnant, then you are going to be held completely responsible for choosing him as a father for your future children. In their eyes you might be as heinous for bringing them into this situation and watching (even if you fought back) instead of leaving, maybe even more heinous because you are the sane one.

Yeah, I could go on with a fiercer and fiercer reaction to each situation point by point, but I think I made the point.

I only slightly made this point to my own mother for her decisions, but a lot of it fell on deaf ears with layers upon layers of justifications shored up (as if laying in wait from her first bad decision.)

As an adult woman now, I sympathize and root for you.
But if we are talking about children's perspectives, well, it's just different.

Talk to their counselor and see what the best type of responses are for you to give them.
I'd be much more worried about teaching them how to protect themselves mentally from toxic people rather then informing them of a past that they had no control of. Maybe when they are much older.

[This message edited by MCGar at 2:59 PM, February 21st (Friday)]


Posts: 43 | Registered: Sep 2008
sudra
Member
Member # 30143
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Lie to them. as you already know. "Sweetie, it's been so long, I just don't remember..."


Me (BW) (54), Him(SAWH) (57)
Married 21 years, 1 son (19), 1 stepdaughter (27)
DDay #1 January 2004
DDay #2 7-27-2010 7 month EA/PA (became "engaged" to OW before he told me he wanted a divorce)
Working on R

Posts: 1448 | Registered: Nov 2010
FirstLoveGone
Member
Member # 25957
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, February 21st (Friday)

Since I have no experience at all in dealing with this type of depravity and evil, I felt I had nothing to offer.

But reading MCGar's post did touch upon something I was feeling as well. I too, wonder if the children will resent you for bringing them into this world with a monster who did not want them and for not leaving him sooner.

I think you can do as others suggested in shielding them from the blunt truth about how their father didn't want them. There are ways to do that as others have suggested. But I also think you will have to face your own culpability in this situation as your kids get older. They may demand answers from you regarding your choices.

I wish you all the best NG. You are one strong woman.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Oct 2009
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 3:11 PM, February 21st (Friday)

MCGar, you've misunderstood. I'm not asking how to tell my kids their dad wanted them dead. I'm wondering how to navigate the waters in which there are devastating mines. There are no truthful, complete answers to their questions which aren't devastating. I'm wondering do I continue to evade and just not be open to those questions, or what. Are kids satisfied with partial answers?

I honestly think he'll be the one to tell them about his death wish for them because it will hurt them in whatever moment they're in. He is a master at choosing his words to be the most vicious & hurtful possible. I'll have to pick up the pieces.

ETA: I am prepared to discuss why I stayed with him and why I chose to have children with him. I know why now, I understand. It isn't something most people can understand unless they, too, have endured it.

[This message edited by Nature_Girl at 3:14 PM, February 21st (Friday)]


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
sef85843
New Member
Member # 13099
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, February 21st (Friday)

I just have one question and I'll try to be gentle....

If you knew your ex-husband didn't want children and he had voiced his opinion, why did you insist on having children with him? Though you could have never predicted his behavior as a result, he told you he didn't want children but you sort of forced it onto him anyway.

I don't mean to sound rude or overbearing, I guess I just want to know (on a macro level) why. This is something I grapple with sometimes too.


Wheel in the sky keeps on turning...don't know where I'll be tomorrow. - Journey

Posts: 36 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: Ann Arbor
still2suspicious
Member
Member # 31722
Default  Posted: 3:45 PM, February 21st (Friday)

It isn't something most people can understand unless they, too, have endured it.

NG- ^^this is me. I have read the words, can visualize you in that hall of hell, feel the fear from just your words, BUT I cannot, and will not, say I understand. That would just be a lie.

You, my dear lady, have got to be one of the strongest, and bravest women on this planet!!

I do agree that, at one point in their lives, that POS will tell them about not wanting them. To hurt, and destroy them, but for no other reason.

Will they blame you in the future? Who knows. They could, also, go the other way and come to see how wonderful, and amazing, a Mom you are. To go thru hell, and come out on the other side, while protecting them too.

Sending you my most heartfelt hugs.

PS: stronger: can some of us girls join in the bashing of this cretin??


Me: BS
Him: WH
DDay: LTEA

Posts: 1275 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From:
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, February 21st (Friday)

He told me that he DID want kids! I was so dysfunctional and desperate, I wanted to believe him even though my heart knew the terrible truth. He would go back & forth, telling me he didn't, then telling me he did. Telling me he hated them, telling me he would try to grow to tolerate them. I was by that point completely beaten & defeated through the years of abuse. I kept telling myself that if the kids could just get old enough that they could give HIM some ego kibbles, he would start to have feelings of affection for them. Which is exactly how it worked out. The more they were cute, the more they garnered him positive attention from outsiders, the more they could provide him with ego kibbles, the more he would consent to do with them.

Make no mistake, I am deeply aware of my culpability in all this. I know I should never have married him, nor should I ever have had children with him. I know this now. However, at the time I was deeply misled as to what my duties were as a Christian woman and wife. I idolized marriage and was a willing martyr on the alter of it. I thought I was being Christ-like in allowing myself to be abused & diminished to the point of ruining my health. I thought I was redeeming him from his evil ways by continuing to love him and tolerate him no matter how abusive he became. I foolishly kept telling myself that a point would come in which he would finally "get it", he would see the light, he would see this beautiful family he already had, and we would live happily ever after.

This, my friends, is the nightmare that is codependency with a NPD. It's a soul-killing trap. Now that I'm out of it I look back and can't stand what I see. It's painful, it's horrifying, it's humiliating, it's humbling. I let my good intentions lead me and the kids to Hell. It's why I am still in IC after almost three years. I'm not like that anymore, but I still need reinforcement from my IC as I continue to heal and get stronger.

I am not proud of myself for having endured all that. It was not strength that kept me going. It was dysfunction & weakness that kept me there and God's grace that kept me alive until I finally woke the hell up and reclaimed my life.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
BAB61
Member
Member # 41181
Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, February 21st (Friday)

((((NG)))) Please don't ever say you weren't strong. You survived. Abuse is soul-destroying. The abuser knows how to build you up just to take delight in bashing you back down.

As a health care practitioner I have had some education on identifying abuse (I'm a LMT) and who to report suspected child abuse to. That being said it is nearly impossible to identify a monster that wears a human mask. Until you are caught in the trap, they do not show themselves.

Please know I admire your tenacity and strength!! (((NG & kids)))


Boss A** B*tch
BS/52 Me, STBXpos/56, dd's 16&14
1st D-day 10/19/2013 EA/PA
2nd D-day 12/7/2013 LTA/Rendezvous
S 12/7/2013 No-fault state, 6 mo S, counting down the days.

Posts: 1271 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: DE
cliffside
Member
Member # 38803
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, February 21st (Friday)

NG,
Is there any chance he's filling their heads with this stuff? My husband's in therapy and it's ridiculous how much his parents rewrote history. I mean it's like his childhood is split in two. What *really* happened, and the stories his parents, and now siblings tell. I also kick myself for not trusting my gut because when I first met his family something seemed off. Like what he told me and what I was seeing did not add up. I should have trusted my gut because the things I have learned about them is beyond disturbing and aligns more with my first reaction to spending time with them.

Also, my IC and I have discussed many times - you watch the news and you see countless stories about the monsters that are living amongst us. Rapists, pedophiles, murderers - yet we never want to believe they are the people we know. You've been through enough, no need to beat yourself up anymore.

You're one of the reasons I look in this forum, to see how you're doing. I hate your husband with every bone in my body and also hope a bus hits him - or that he ends up in a real world deliverance situation - which I think would be more fitting ;-)

Stay strong.

ETA: if I told the people in my in-laws community what they really were, no one would believe me. They too wear the human mask.

[This message edited by cliffside at 4:30 PM, February 21st (Friday)]


Me: BS 39
Him: WH 41
2 Kids
D-Day: 2/3/13
Broke NC 3/14
Very skeptically in R for now...

Posts: 261 | Registered: Mar 2013
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, February 21st (Friday)

NG, what a sad, terrible story. Heartbreaking. I’m so sorry for you.

Regarding the kids – do what you need to do, but don’t be the one to tell them any of this. You’re their mom. Your job is to make them happy, self assured, secure and stable. Being told ‘Daddy didn’t want you to live’ will do the exact opposite. I know, you aren’t asking how to tell them that their father is a monster, but the topic here is what to say. I vote ‘nothing’. Let them be kids. If they think they remember him being wonderful, then let them have that memory. It’s not hurting them, and it’s making them feel loved.

If anything, find ways to warn them about their father’s temper, his mouth that loves to hurt people, and his NPD ways. Prepare them to be cut to the core by him one day, but do not shatter their belief that they are loved by all, and wanted by all. That would be the hardest cut they’d ever take.

As far as him preparing them for molestation – I’m not certain what that means, but it scares the crap out of me. How could any judge give this guy custody, in any form, even for a half hour a week?

I know what you mean about having to live through something to understand it. I’m not judging you at all. In fact, good for you for getting out. That can be the hardest of all, in certain situations.


It's so easy to believe someone when they're telling you exactly what you want to hear.....

Posts: 1869 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
hathnofury
Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, February 21st (Friday)

NG, I am always in awe of you. (((hugs)))

I think you know to a degree, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. It just comes with the territory, especially when you have three kids. You can't tailor your reaction to be ideal for all three of them all the time.

I have found with my own kids, when they ask questions they aren't ready to hear the real answer to, deflection is always the best first defense. They want to know they are securely loved - and you can tell them about memories you had of them as babies being loved by you and others. They want a to have sense of purpose, that they were wanted and have a role to play in your family (the "smart" one, the "curious" one, the one that always wanted to be in charge, etc.) so you relay stories that highlight their personality and how they fit in your family puzzle. They want a sense of hope, that they can always count on being loved and part of the family, so you keep telling them how much they will always be loved and part of this family.

Yes, as they get older, they may get more persistent and ask more pointed questions. And yes, truth in age-appropriate doses are important. IC guidance of course is important. But IMHO, IMHE, what kids want to know when they ask about their early childhood, is confirmation that they were securely loved, they had a purpose/role, and they can always hope and know they belong to a family they are loved. Kids going through or involved in a tenacious divorce are no difference, they just may need it more because they need more confirmation due to other things going on in their life that make them doubt.

Hang in there NG. This too shall pass.


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1464 | Registered: Jun 2011
tesla
Member
Member # 34697
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, February 21st (Friday)

(((NG and Naturekiddos)))

I hate this piece of shit.
That post nearly made me physically ill. I am so happy that you are out of that hellish misery.

A simple, "I don't remember" shall suffice. And continue to work with the children's IC because you know when they stop feeding him ego kibbles, when they start to assert their own autonomy, he will begin crushing them.

Hopefully his lifestyle will bring on an early death.

Edited to correct a really strange spelling mistake

[This message edited by tesla at 12:47 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


"Thou art the son and heir of a mongrel bitch." --King Lear

Posts: 4608 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Indiana
badd
Member
Member # 23468
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)

[This message edited by badd at 2:03 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)]


Posts: 130 | Registered: Apr 2009
k8la
Member
Member # 38408
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Having been raised in a home where I didn't feel wanted by my dad, along with alcoholism, infidelity, domestic violence and an NPD mother, I know a bit about what your children face, only they have a sane, balanced and loving mom - they have a safe place so long as you keep their mental emotional safety in mind as you raise them and you're doing that right now in asking these questions.

I also raised my son in a home where bipolar flair ups with his father occurred sometimes. I had to do some preventive educating, some of which helped but some was completely ineffective - I get to see how I did now that DS is in college.

From the perspective of your children:
They already know or sense how much their father wants or doesn't want them. They want his approval. They may be thinking that if they're just obedient enough, he'll love them. They may get caught in that horrible trap. That's the trap I got caught in - thinking that if I just kept the house clean, or did the things my dad was screaming at my mom about not doing, then he'd stop yelling, stop drinking and be the kind of dad my friends had. Talk about overcompensating. My mom was not equipped to recognize what I was doing, or how horrible my life was, or how much I was personalizing what was going on in my home. The world revolved around her experience and so she was clueless and didn't care to get a clue just because I was in pain.

And where your X has the proclivity for little girls and children are sexualized to him, there is a greater danger than I had growing up. Talk with a therapist about neutralizing this trap for your children. Age-appropriate knowledge about mental illness and perversion is important for them to learn so they can protect themselves since the courts won't...yet.

As a parent - what I did right:
1. Was a safe place for DS to talk, cry, complain, etc. without undermining his father's place in his life. We went for a lot of drives to get him a space away from volatility and toxic emotions when his father was having a manic episode. I learned and practiced listening with validation.
2. I would ask him for his ideas and solutions. My natural tendency is problem solving, which DS hated. He wanted to be heard, not told what to do.
3. Taught my son early and often to recognize the difference between cause and effect (his behavior/natural and logical consequences) and other people's issues.

What I wish I had done more of or differently:
1. Paid more attention when he didn't want to talk. I would let him come to me because I didn't want to push and process him all the time.
2. Paid more attention to self-abuse cues. No matter how hard you tell a child it's not their fault and they didn't do anything wrong to have their father behave badly, they have their own beliefs anyway. I would have intercepted those cues and got him working with a counselor a lot sooner.
3. Paid more attention to developing his own goals and dreams. DS is a pleaser, but very strong willed. I would have nurtured that strong will a lot more and taken advantage of the pleaser a lot less.
4. No tickling. I loved to hear him laugh. I craved it. He already felt bullied and pushed around by his dad, especially during manic phases. If I had a do-over, I'd have made sure my own behavior was much safer - though I tried hard to be a safe place for DS, I missed a few very important cues.


Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2013
SpecialK
Member
Member # 42372
Default  Posted: 6:52 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

OMG! I am so sorry that you and your children had to go through this. There has to be a very "special" place in hell for people like him.

I think you know you can "never" tell your children the truth, it would devastate them, but I see your dilemma, you don't want to lie, but there is no way you can tell the truth.
All I can offer is {{hugs}}


Posts: 213 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Florida
Althea
Member
Member # 37765
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Nature Girl, your ex and my father could be the same man. I thank God for your children's sake that you are nothing like my mother who stayed with him until after I graduated from high school. I don't know how old your children are, but my mother has a picture that I drew of my father being struck by lightning. I was 8. My sisters and I talk pretty regularly about our life growing up and have very few memories of our childhood, so I think you are right that your children have blocked a lot of this out. Not all of it. The other thing we used to do is fantasize that we had a "normal" family. We would ask our parents questions about our heritage or what it was like when we were babies, hoping to have something nice to hold on to that was different from our horrible day to day existence. My father used to just lie to us. I remember once asking him if he knew any foreign languages because a friend of mine was taking lessons and I wanted to know a foreign language too. He just made up words, and sat there and watched while I committed them to memory, and let me go around telling people I knew German.

You can be absolutely sure your ex will say horrible things to your children. Mine told me he was pretty sure I wasn't his; and this was during one of our "good" talks where he wasn't angry at me. He is also going to cause your children long-term psychologic trauma with his NPD manipulation. Does he have unsupervised contact with them? Is this something you can push for?

As for what to say to your children. There is no way to say to them that their dad wasn't interested in taking part that will not lead to them feeling unlovable. And they will get enough of that from him directly, as you have already surmised. However, I don't think romanticizing his involvement is a good idea either, as it will make the reality of their situation that much more difficult to understand. My mother used to give us false hope that she was about to leave my father, even showing us houses she was looking at, only to justify staying later. It would destroy us every time.

Anyway, I don't mean to T/J your thread with my anecdotes. I just read your story and it resonated with me so much. Your children are EXTRAORDINARILY LUCKY to have you as their mother. I know how difficult it was for you to change yourself enough to leave, most wouldn't be that strong. My mother is totally incapable of that level of introspection.

I can't speak to what your children's existence WILL be like, but I can speak to the Hell you saved them from. We kids knew my dad was crazy and could for the most part protect ourselves (angry was easy, the harder were the "heart to hearts" he would want to have where he would trick us into disclosing things he could use as ammunition later); much harder to get over was the knowledge that our mother didn't love us enough to protect us from him That took decades and LOTS of therapy to work through. It was that feeling of being unlovable that caused me the most harm, and that came from HER.

So that is my very long-winded not really on topic reply to your question I just wanted to you take heart that by loving your children enough to leave, and taking the time and energy to ask these difficult questions, and by taking them to therapy, you are giving them a tremendous gift. They really are lucky to have you.


Taking it one day at a time.

Posts: 452 | Registered: Dec 2012
thenon-goddess
Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 6:37 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

NG, the first thing I think after I read all of that is, why did you have two more children with this man?!?! He was watching porn and *masturbating* which holding your daughter. That is a serious, jaw dropping, WHAT THE &%*#!!!! Why? I have no read all of the replies yet, so forgive me if you've already answered, but I can't imagine having two more children after I was abused like that!! And not only were you abused, your children essentially were! I can understand if you were being a submissive wife and he was telling you he wanted more, but if he never wanted them, why?
As for what to tell your children? Nothing. Please never tell them any of that. Ever! Tell them dad loves you. Dad was busy a lot when you were younger or dad wasn't sure how to take care of little babies so mom did most of it. Please never burden them with those stories. I can tell you my mom told me of one incident involving my father when I was younger and it still haunts me. I mean, it hurts me a lot and there is absolutely ZERO benefit in me ever having to know what she told me.


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Feb 2011
numbandnauseous
Member
Member # 34525
Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

First, NG, I am so sorry - huge hugs to you and I echo what the others said re: you being amazingly strong and that your children are so lucky to have you for their mom.

t/j:
I would like to address thenon's comment, though:
thenon- this is a place of support and I don't feel like you are giving NG this in the first part of your post. Unless you have had NG's exact FOO issues and walked in her shoes, you have no right to question why she stayed with him. Many people stay with abusers for very complex reasons and many do not ever leave their abusers. It is not your place to question. It is in the past and there is nothing she can do to change that, so pointing it out is not going to help in any way. The fact is that despite her horrific abuse, she WAS able to climb out of her abusive-beyond-words marriage and leave the mother-fucker. She is incredibly strong and deserves our support and advice, NOT questioning why she didn't leave him sooner.

end t/j


BS (me) - 41
WH - 48, EA with HS GF x 2
M: 10 years, T: 20
2 small children
DDay#1 - Christmas 2011 (OW#1)
Confronted - 4/6/12
DDay#2 - July 9, 2012 (OW#2)
He is an SA (Oct 2012)
Divorcing

Posts: 827 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: the other side
FirstLoveGone
Member
Member # 25957
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Yes, this forum is a place of support. But almost every forum on SI is dedicated to self-introspection. There are plenty of threads throughout SI where members are asked tough Qs. Sometimes the delivery of the Q isn't always a soft one. But Qs sometimes get us to reflect on what decisions we have made or have yet to make. This reflection can hopefully spare us from making the same mistakes.

NG does not have to answer any Qs that she does not want to. Nor does she have to consider any posts or parts of posts that she feels are non-supportive.

In any case - thenon-goddess - NG did explain her reasons for staying in one of her posts in this thread.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Oct 2009
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Just to clear up any misconceptions, the day I saw him masturbating while holding one of my babies was the last day I allowed him to do anything with the babies for a couple of years. I took the baby out of HIS arms, called him a few names, and that was that. He did not change another diaper, wash a baby-related item, or put them down for a nap or bedtime. He did not take them for walks, didn't read stories to them, didn't get up in the middle of the night. No pedi visits, no playdates, nothing. I did it all. Every bit.

During this time I contacted my parents to beg them for help. They flat-out told me I could not possibly make it on my own with three young children. By that point my ex had fully triangulated them against me, they had no idea what was actually going on, and every time I tried to tell them they didn't hear me. You cannot possibly imagine what it is like to be victimized in this way, to have your entire support structure right down to your parents taken away & poisoned against you. So when I called my parents to beg for help, they refused and told me to resubmit myself to my husband and pray to God.

Some of the questions in this thread posed to me are pretty harsh, but I understand why they are being asked. Some is the instinctive "victim blaming" that goes on in our country. You hear about it all the time, like when rape victims are accused of asking for it because they had a drink or danced with the guy. Women who stay with abusers are also blamed. I know this because I used to do it myself. I saw women who stayed in an abusive situation and I sneered at them. I couldn't imagine how anyone could be so stupid and helpless. Then one day I realized I'd become the thing I despised. And I was trapped. I finally understand how it could happen, how an intelligent person could end up a victim.

This kind of abuse is insidious. You just don't realize it's happening. Especially if you were raised as I was, raise to be a people-pleaser, raised to idolize marriage and never get divorced, raised to deny oneself for the good of everyone else.

So yes, some of the questions here are extremely harsh. Luckily I've been to years of IC and have gone over these exact same questions in great detail. Otherwise, these questions would destroy me utterly. As it is, I'll answer as much as I can, but people need to understand that they CAN NOT understand fully, not to the extent that they feel satisfied with the answers.

As a society we need to understand abuse. We don't tolerate bullying anymore at school or the workplace. I think its time to stop tolerating it in marriages.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
betrayedfriend
Member
Member # 19785
Default  Posted: 12:11 AM, February 24th (Monday)

You know NG I've dealt with some horrific things, nothing on the scale of what you have but in the position of being the child who was molested, abused and taught not to trust her instincts. I'm so grateful that your children have you. I have no doubt in my mind that you will love them, guide them and protect them as much as possible with every fiber of your being. I've also seen just how far you've come and where you're headed. Do not let anything said here by anyone take that away from you. You escaped. You are doing the hard work to help guide your precious kids through this hell with their father. You are seeking support and guidance to keep them as safe, yet grounded in reality as possible. I admire you. You're an amazing mother.

Now back to your original question. I don't think there's a great way to tell the kids when they ask, and they will ask. I think trying to accurately answer situational questions with a "no, honey, I did that for you" will help to a certain extent, but at some point, you're going to have to explain the masturbating incident, as well as the porn and other sick stuff, so that your children are hyper vigilant and understand the level of awareness they will need. I don't know at what age that would be appropriate or how to do it. Perhaps starting off generally with, you know your body is your own, and no one should see you naked but a dr. No one should show you their own or someone else's private body parts. And progress from there over the years.

As far as Daddy (God, I hate typing that word in relation to your devil spawn x) not wanting the kids, I'd explain it with generic, some people are not meant to be parents, they only have the capability to love themselves. When they try to love others it hurts the others more than it is good for them. If you say that in regards to comments about "daddy" they will draw the connection themselves, I would follow it up with, how much you as their mom are amazed with them and completely cherish each wonderful and not so wonderful moment you get with them. They will draw the connection that you love them unconditionally.

Now, one last thing... No one has any right to isolate you from loved ones or even general society. And no one has the right to make you feel bad for the choices you've had to make to survive the hell of abuse you have.


I originally joined SI as a way to help my best friends find ways of coping with infidelity, but now infidelity has touched my family much closer to home.

Posts: 863 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: Midwest USA
Rainbows
Member
Member # 39362
Default  Posted: 12:46 AM, February 24th (Monday)

NG, I was also codependent to an NPD (among other things) man who also poisoned friends and family against me. Leaving was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to leave a person like that with children.

You really are a very strong and inspirational woman.

(((naturegirl)))


There is always a rainbow after every storm.

Posts: 395 | Registered: May 2013 | From: California
SBB
Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 1:56 AM, February 24th (Monday)

IMO his not wanting kids was not the reason for the extreme abuse, his extremely abusive nature was the reason for the extreme abuse.

I felt breathless just reading this.

I didn't want kids either. I know the sad clown will tell the girls this one day and it kills me.

I don't know what I'd do in your situation. I don't think I'd ever volunteer this particular piece of information but I do think I would answer honestly if/when they ask when they are adults.

I would tell them about the extreme abuse before/during/after your pregnancies.

This kind of stuff messes with your sense of self. Truth or not. I don't see what they could gain from knowing it. What insight it would give them that the rest of his behaviour wouldn't already give them.

They will see him one day, NG. The challenge here is to not have them see themselves differently once they see him.

My own father was an extremely abusive POS. He OD'd when I was 17.

I had told my little sister that one of the reasons I didn't want children is I couldn't bear for any of them to resemble him in any way.

Because my sister and I look so different we always assumed she was from a different father. We started asking my mum pointy questions and were about to do a DNA test when she came clean.

At 25 I found out he wasn't my biological father, but he was my sisters. I was beyond delighted with this news. My joy was indescribable. Then I saw my sisters face - I thought she was upset because she had wished to meet her real bio father (we left him when she was 3 - she didn't know him).

Instead she reminded me of what I had said to her about my future children resembling him. She was beyond hurt and it changed how she felt about herself. I regret that remark to this day - as true as it was.

Sorry for the long post. I can't believe that this is something you have to think about but I know that you do. I wish he would fall off the face of the earth. I was reborn free the day my 'father' died.


Buzz- The word you are searching for is 'Space-Ranger.'
Woody- The word I'm searching for, I can't say, because there are Pre-school toys here.

Posts: 5527 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
thenon-goddess
Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 5:31 AM, February 24th (Monday)

First Love Gone, I did see after that she answered, however I could not get back in to the forum to edit. Something is going on with my home server and once I come here, if I click away (or maybe it times out?) I can't get back in. I get "weblage cannot be displayed" or else I would have edited.

NG, I most certainly am not being a victim blamer, I was trying to understand "why". I will leave it at that, as I understand this is an incredibly delicate subject to talk about and I don't want to contribute to any more of your stress over the past.

[This message edited by thenon-goddess at 5:35 AM, February 24th (Monday)]


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Feb 2011
thenon-goddess
Member
Member # 31229
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, February 24th (Monday)

NG, I was hurrying to get my daughter ready for school earlier, but I do want to add, I am so glad you and your kids are out of that situation now. I have not followed your story from the very beginning, so I don't know what the catalyst was, but whatever it was, good for you for leaving! I'm very glad you are able to look back and see the abuse for what it was now!


Status: divorcing
Typing on an iPhone - please excuse the typos!

Posts: 1238 | Registered: Feb 2011
Undefinabl3
Member
Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, February 24th (Monday)

Please, don't....Dont tell them he never wanted them. Please.

My father DID.NOT want a second child. It got to the point that my mom said she was having another with or without him.

I know that my dad loves me, he loves me more then his own life, and I know this....but it still makes me feel like...well i am so glad you wanted me AFTER i was born.

It stings to know this.


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
New online find 6/19/14 - shit

Posts: 1700 | Registered: Sep 2012
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, February 24th (Monday)

Okay, I will again state that I do not intend to tell my kids that their father did not want them. I am confident that their father will tell them this all on his own because he is a mean, cruel person. He'll save that tidbit for when my kids are at their most vulnerable, and then he'll deliver that coup de grace to destroy them. That's just how he rolls.

I am seeking input on how to answer the children's questions regarding their father's involvement in their early childhood when their father actually was NOT involved. He actively & deliberately sabotaged me during their early childhood. He was a danger to them. So far I've given the standard, "I don't know" and "He was busy" answers so many times I don't think they're credible any more.

There must be a way of giving the children information so they grow up with a healthy self-esteem, but also not outright lying to them about the truth of their lives and my life. The truth is their father is an evil, mentally deranged person who is not safe. He's the kind of person who, when he found out his cousin who he'd grown up with had an auto accident and was killed, he laughed and said it served him right. He laughed for years afterwards every time the subject came up, calling his dead cousin every name in the book. I must not allow my children to grow up with no tools & awareness to deal with such evil. I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
Compartmented
Member
Member # 29410
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, February 24th (Monday)

I must not allow my children to grow up with no tools & awareness to deal with such evil. I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.
NatureG,

I struggle with the same questions. Mine is not yours, but he's dangerous and evil in his own ways. My youngest is no longer a minor, so I think I will escape parental alienation accusations at this point. That threat was certainly levied at me in the past, even though I have kept his dirty secrets. I can't help you to know what to do but I do understand the dilemma. Our goal is for the children to be able to protect themselves.

As far as why abused women don't leave any sooner, all I can say is, it's not a matter of intelligence. We just can't see it. I saw the same thing in my domestic abuse support group. Almost every woman there at some point questioned whether they were being abused, all the while the rest of us were saying, "No! Don't question that!" after we heard their stories.

It does sneak up slowly. But looking back, I can still remember the night as a newlywed when my X came home and started screaming at me for what was on the television. He was yelling inappropriate things for a long time. I thought to myself, "Gee, he must have been triggered by that movie. He must've had a real bad experience growing up." It never crossed my mind to say, "what the f**k are you yelling at ME for?" And what did I do instead? I modified my behavior because I didn't want him to yell at me again. I worked very hard to never make him angry.


Posts: 1229 | Registered: Aug 2010
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, February 24th (Monday)

It does sneak up slowly. But looking back, I can still remember the night as a newlywed when my X came home and started screaming at me for what was on the television. He was yelling inappropriate things for a long time. I thought to myself, "Gee, he must have been triggered by that movie. He must've had a real bad experience growing up." It never crossed my mind to say, "what the f**k are you yelling at ME for?" And what did I do instead? I modified my behavior because I didn't want him to yell at me again. I worked very hard to never make him angry.

I fell into the same trap. He would act out, and instead of fearlessly confronting him & demanding better, I decided to "improve myself" and make whatever modifications I needed to myself so he wouldn't have a reason to get mad at me (or the kids) again. I knew he was in the wrong, but I thought I could love him out of it. I thought I was obligated to love him out of it and stick with him for better or worse. My entire life eventually revolved around not making him angry. Yet at the time it all made sense.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9467 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, February 24th (Monday)

(((N_G)))

YOU are an amazing strong, awesome, fierce woman, who should be awed at your ability to get out.

You are right that kind of abuse is insidious, and often the abusee does not even realize the amount of pain, and detriment the abuser has caused.

Next to address your questions and concerns. I think while your kids are young, you should be age appropriate, but somewhat honest. Dad wasn't around much, he wasn't that interested in being daddy when he couldn't really play and interact with you (I had this conversation with my kids about their one Gpa, because he just didn't do babies, andcouldn't really deal with them until they were in about 3rd grade). They will figure out the rest of his issues as they grow, esp with mom being so strong, and demanding the respect she deserves.

They may not remember the terror filled nights and I think that will probably be ok, but I would talk with the family therapist about this. When they are young adults though, I mean like 15-16-17, it is important for them to understand what really happened, as they are going forward into relationships, the tendency to be like mom, or be submissive my be strong, and you certainly want to help them to never get involved in a like relationship.

You are Awesome, and I think you can help a lot of other people in the future, see the cycle of abuse, and that there is a way out.

(((and strength)))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8098 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
hathnofury
Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, February 24th (Monday)

I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.

(((NG)))
You don't sugar coat and evade. I still believe this (me, in my previous post):

But IMHO, IMHE, what kids want to know when they ask about their early childhood, is confirmation that they were securely loved, they had a purpose/role, and they can always hope and know they belong to a family they are loved.

So that would work like this:

Child: "Did Dad change my diapers at night when I was a baby?"

You: <laughing> "I think I could count the numbers of diapers he changed for all of you on one hand. Diapers were not his thing. But speaking of diapers, do you know what YOU did once you could walk? You could get out of any diaper I put you in. I tried duct tape, putting sleepers on backwards, everything and you still streaked around naked every chance you got! You were our little Houdini! To this day I can't figure out what you will wiggle your way out of next!"

So you

1) answered honestly and non-threateningly.
2) provided an example they were securely loved.
3) showed they had a purpose and role in your family even as a baby.
4) gave them hope for their future in this family unit.
5) gave them a specific memory for them to cherish.

At their current ages, I think this is appropriate and what they really want and need anyway. When they start asking more specific, harder questions as they get older (especially if you think they are trying to verify false stories HE has provided), if I were you, I would address those with the IC present. That way, it is handled appropriately AND you have proof you were not trying to alienate him, KWIM? AND you are giving them the skills and tools to deal with the evil down the road with professional guidance.

Bless you NG. You are my hero!


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1464 | Registered: Jun 2011
hathnofury
Member
Member # 32550
Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, February 24th (Monday)

I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.

(((NG)))
You don't sugar coat and evade. I still believe this (me, in my previous post):

But IMHO, IMHE, what kids want to know when they ask about their early childhood, is confirmation that they were securely loved, they had a purpose/role, and they can always hope and know they belong to a family they are loved.

So that would work like this:

Child: "Did Dad change my diapers at night when I was a baby?"

You: <laughing> "I think I could count the numbers of diapers he changed for all of you on one hand. Diapers were not his thing. But speaking of diapers, do you know what YOU did once you could walk? You could get out of any diaper I put you in. I tried duct tape, putting sleepers on backwards, everything and you still streaked around naked every chance you got! You were our little Houdini! To this day I can't figure out what you will wiggle your way out of next!"

So you

1) answered honestly and non-threateningly.
2) provided an example they were securely loved.
3) showed they had a purpose and role in your family even as a baby.
4) gave them hope for their future in this family unit.
5) gave them a specific memory for them to cherish.

At their current ages, I think this is appropriate and what they really want and need anyway. When they start asking more specific, harder questions as they get older (especially if you think they are trying to verify false stories HE has provided), if I were you, I would address those with the IC present. That way, it is handled appropriately AND you have proof you were not trying to alienate him, KWIM? AND you are giving them the skills and tools to deal with the evil down the road with professional guidance.

Bless you NG. You are my hero!


BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

Posts: 1464 | Registered: Jun 2011
SBB
Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, February 24th (Monday)

I misunderstood the question.

Don't be surprised if he tells them YOU didn't want kids. I doubt he will tell them he didn't. That would cut off his ego, supply no? I could see him doing it if they stopped feeding his ego but right now and for a long time they won't be the mark, you are.

The sad clown had zero to do with the girls for the first year or two of their lives. He was 'working' pretty much 18 hours a day and watching TV or sleeping the rest of the time.

Unfortunately all of the photos are of him with them - my attempt to get proof of what a great dad he was in my self gaslighting expeditions. Hardly any photos of me. I haven't kept any of him but when I think of them and when I look at the photos of me with them I can still remember the pleading it took to get him to pose or take a photo. There is one particularly gorgeous one where my first baby and I are laying on a blanket on the grass and beaming at the camera. I walked straight inside after that photo and cried - he was so mean about taking one single photo.

My girls have asked for stories of when they were babies. All of the stories are me and them. I was shocked when they asked "what did daddy do?" and I said "your dad was at work" then more questions.

The gist of it was that I stayed home and looked after them when they were little little babies and I did most of the care. He gave them baths a few nights a week. He did the shopping because I didn't drive back then. In a way I don't want them to know how little he had to do with them. I won't make shit up but I still don't want them to know.

Its different for me because they spend half of their lives with him now. They can see exactly what he does - plonks them in front of the TV whilst he diddles on his computer or diddles his whore i.e.: 'working'. I won't need to tell them he has parenting ADD because they can see it.

In years to come I expect they'll do what I did and tell themselves he's so gosh darn busy and feel bad for imposing their needs on him. This makes me sad and mad.

I think for now you focus on what YOU did, how involved YOU were. Kids want to hear about themselves - maybe they are looking for new stories about themselves rather than insight into their fathers parenting. If pushed I don't know that it would be bad to say "he wasn't really that involved" and "I don't know why" when they ask you why.

Lack of involvement is not uncommon. I had one father of 3 tell me he didn't have anything to do with his kids until they were 2. He seemed proud of this. I felt for his kids and his wife.


Buzz- The word you are searching for is 'Space-Ranger.'
Woody- The word I'm searching for, I can't say, because there are Pre-school toys here.

Posts: 5527 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
BrighterFuture
Member
Member # 38914
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, February 24th (Monday)

I'm so sorry NG. What you went through was horrific. I too had a man who didn't want children. He wanted me to abort the first time, and the 2nd time too but being a Christian, I was totally against it. It's a tough situation to handle especially with children being so innocent and asking questions. I blame myself for having children with a man so messed up. I don't have much advise but just wanted to show understanding and support.


Me:30
Him:31
D-day:2/24/13 (I was 10 weeks pregnant at the time and DS was 15 months)
Status: Parted ways!

"If only I can fight just a little longer, I know it's gonna make me stronger" Jamie Grace-Holding on.


Posts: 340 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Ohio
Topic Posts: 60