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User Topic: More wisdom from the MC
Ivyivy
Member
Member # 42110
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Just to follow up on my post from yesterday. See below for my email and a follow up response from the MC. Let me know your thoughts. I guess I have trouble trusting my own judgement these days.
**************************************************
My Email

As I said in my last email, I am truly dumbfounded by your response. I think that the phrase that really clinched it for me though was:

Affairs only happen in marriages where communication is not possible.

That is one hell of a presumptuous assumption to be making. Maybe that was the cause of my husband''s affair - but I am sure that there are plenty of marriages out there with good communication where affairs still happen (for all sorts of reasons). Finally, affairs happen because people make choices on how to handle situations that may not be ideal. I will not accept even 1% of the blame for WH''s choice.

At this point, I am comfortable saying that I will not be coming to marriage counseling again and will also recommend that WH seek a new counselor who may have a more reasonable perspective.

**************************************************
MC''s Response

Who asked you to accept blame for WH''s choice? That is logically impossible. Did you read my point about marital breakdown not being an issue of blame? That the only way , in your marriage, that you each know how to hear each other or to talk to each other involves blame ...and, blame is toxic and a dead end?

Your marriage is in crisis. Your family is at stake. I don''t need to tell you that. And, you remained fixed in your insistence that we approach the crisis as a question of blame. You are certain it is only an issue of blame, and WH''s choice and behavior is 100% immoral in your beliefs....and, so he bears 100% blame for both ...both...for his choice/behavior (where you are 100% correct) and for the crisis in your marriage (where you are quite incorrect). The second part is impossible because marriage is a joint enterprise and the dynamics that ensue (including cases of total breakdown in communication) happen in the space "between" two people. Two people with their own, distinct, and apparently incompatible subjectivities. There are two subjects in a marriage not just an "I".

You effectively demean yourself to reduce your self to "a victim" in your marriage. You are very much more than that. And, if you won''t let yourself be more than that in the marriage, then it is obviously over. There is no marriage possible between a all-responsible and all-powerful perpetrator and a spouse who is nothing other than a powerless and impact-less victim. Victims have no power, no depth, no will, no complexity, no effect on others. Truly. It is a horrible way to reduce a person...in this case yourself. WH lied and betrayed you continuously but he did not make you a victim. You insist on making that of yourself. For, if you insist that WH is nothing more than a criminal and you are a totally un-implicated bystander of an assault...then you will make yourself the opposite pole, a powerless and totally -reduced being that has become "victim" as the cornerstone of her identity in the marriage.

That path will mean that your marriage will end as I wrote you ...with you building a stronger and stronger prosecutorial case against an absolutely and 100% uncaring monster who you are certain has no capacity to ever learn to love . He doesn''t know how to love you, nor do you know how to love him. This is not engaging in any hope for healing, it is 100% adversarial. If you remain here ...then, you need to take this to a lawyer. For...you must agree...you cannot prosecute and sentence in your own case, as victim # so and so. You need lawyers to fight that case, and you will surely find a capable one willing to build the case with you.

In the end, you will have the pleasure of tremendous, righteous rage and of lasting bitter anger that can''t be metabolized. You will have missed an enormous opportunity to believe in yourself and in your marriage to grow and to heal. And, the children will undoubtedly suffer psychological consequences. Whenever there is this degree of animosity and polarization in the story of a marriage, the children will be more adversely affected than if their parents can find the resources to remain engaged in dialogue as adults in crisis, with professional help, even if they opt for divorce. They will have a monster as a father and a rageful and bitter mother. They will be forced to choose sides since the story is presented as having no complexity and no true "subjectivity"...their parents are reduced to just a two-dimensional victim and criminal. And the air remains poisoned with rage. This harms children, period.

If you insist on nothing else but this story of your marriage, a tale of all good and all evil, of all powerful and determinant and all powerless and victimized, you can never never re-construct a marriage...and here I mean, never....no matter how much responsibility/percent-culpability you could get WH to own and how much payment of damages you could extract. Victim and perpetrator will never be a marriage.

Indeed, I will retract "only" from the quote you highlight in your email. In a logical argument, one should never talk about "every" and "always". I apologize for that. The description about possible communication characterizes most of the couples who come to therapy, either after an affair, or not. That is what I can say without over-statement. Good call on that one.

I''m curious about your bafflement. You didn''t recognize any similarities between your marriage and the reasoning I laid out regarding a mutually encountered impossibility of understanding each other ? A marriage where the partners have been emotionally distant and disengaged for years a marriage of silences and avoidance a marriage with what seems/seemed like unbridgeable gaps in understanding the other a marriage with simmering rage and disaffection a marriage of hopeless feelings?

Of course you don''t have to return to see me, and I will respect that decision. I pledge to say/write no more. I have said my piece. But, if you both do decide that I might be able to help, then, I would be glad to remain involved as the couple therapist...as WH''a therapist if he so chooses...or, as nobody''s therapist as you indicate you are feeling right now.

Think a bit, BS, of the time and effort I have chosen to invest in these communications today and see if you can muster a smidgen of doubt about my true intentions. If I wanted to be an advocate and supporter of WH at your expense, would I need to communicate with you about what I see happening to you? Spend half of my day for research and writing (about the nature of subjectivity and about the issues around sex and fidelity in marriage) writing to you? I could bad-mouth you all I wanted in my office with WH alone if I wanted to take his side and incite him and if I wanted to try to influence in a direction so that the marriage has no chance. I haven''t sent WH any bcc of these emails. I have been talking impassioned just to you because I see you making your life worse. I came home from Shabbat services intending to try to follow the injunction to rest, because I don''t. And, I answered you because I am upset , BS. You can tell I am upset. But, you will probably be certain that my upset is animosity towards you, that I have malevolent intent towards you. If I felt animosity, BS, I would never give you my time and passionate entreaties as I have today. It is easier to give not a speck of energy nor a speck of valuable caring to someone you feel so critical of or so much animosity towards. That is also the case between you and WH, by the way. There is a ton of caring still invested and buried behind the rage. Maybe I am giving voice to the caring that neither of you can express towards each other. Or, maybe, you will think, I am an incompetent and arrogant ass who couldn''t care less about you? Probably what you will conclude. If so, that is a shame. I doubled down on my highly unusual means of trying to resuscitate this marriage....I''ve written you again and more impassioned. You will feel you know what I really am trying to do...to exonerate WH at your expense. You will think what you want. I have no more to say, finally.

[This message edited by Ivyivy at 8:45 AM, February 27th, 2014 (Thursday)]


Me -BW
Him - WH
LTA
DS - 11 and DD - 15

Posts: 181 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Ivyivy,
I already commented about my opinion on the approach to MC and A recovery this MC takes, so I will not repeat that here.

I am surprised that this MC continues the email exchanges. For this reason alone I would look for another MC/IC. Email and text are, in my opinion, horrible ways to manage emotionally difficult discussions. There is huge room for miss-interpretation, there is little to no feedback on facial expression, tone, and body language.

I would have expected the MC to acknowledge your feelings and recommend that they be a point for discussion at the next session, or perhaps some IC with you to better get to know you before more MC efforts. I would not expect arguing with a client via email.

-- ats


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4130 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ShiningAutumn8
Member
Member # 42558
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I can barely make sense of it, as she is so verbous. Alot seems like word salad to me. Its good she admitted her statement was wrong. But the rest just gives me a headache. Its too hard to even sifest whay she's saying. For that alone I'd probably pick another counseler.

Did you or will you post what your original letter to WH said?


Posts: 373 | Registered: Feb 2014
ShiningAutumn8
Member
Member # 42558
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I also was wondering, is it normal for a counseler to communicate by email like this? I agree it leaves lots of room for misinterpretation.

I also do not care for how she says "you will react like this" or "you will think this" in essense, basically accusing you of having a certain response to her emails. It seems odd and unprofessional to me.


Posts: 373 | Registered: Feb 2014
Tearsoflove
Member
Member # 8271
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

So what he is saying that if you don't see it his way then the only alternative is divorce? Seriously?

While he makes some valid points about needing to open lines of communication and work to make that better, if you husband is not working on whatever inside him allowed him to justify an affair, it will happen over and over again whether he is with you or someone else. If he stays with you, you will always fear another affair unless you feel safe because he's done the work on himself. It really doesn't matter if you forgive him if he hasn't done the work and considers the marriage at fault for his behavior.

His implication is also that a victim of a betrayal (not necessarily a crime) is incapable of being a survivor. It's either you decide that you are a participant in your betrayal or you remain a victim and that's completely illogical. I'd hate to see how he would counsel a victim of rape or any other crime since his insistence that by feeling betrayed, you continue to paint yourself as a victim and that it means you believe the perpetrator has no capability to change or improve. Humanity doesn't work that way. Feeling betrayed does not mean that you believe your husband can't improve. But his refusal to hold your husband accountable for the betrayal because he has excuses for it (notice I said excuses, not reasons) allows your husband to skate by without doing any real work.

It sounds to me as if your husband painted you as completely non-communicative and rigid in his IC sessions and the therapist had already given him a pass because of it. It does not sound as if he believes that the perpetrator of betrayal owes the victim of that betrayal (and yes, you are a victim of betrayal) any type of remorse. It's just pretend it didn't happen and move on or you stay a victim. That outlook is bullshit. Without seeing remorse from the perpetrator, it will be very difficult to forgive and without your husband acknowledging his betrayal and showing remorse, it will be very difficult for him not to continue to use you as an excuse for bad behavior.

The therapist is a sanctimonious dolt. Wonderful that he acknowledged that your husband is responsible for having an affair. Too bad it doesn't matter if he acknowledges it---only if your husband does and that isn't likely to happen as long as the therapist continues to move forward as if there is ever a good reason for an affair. It's not as if your husband cut you off in traffic. He betrayed you, risked your health, broke promises. If we owe someone we bump into an apology, why would we get a pass on betraying the person we were supposed to put above all others?

Dealing with the infidelity first will open you up to dealing with marital issues. Not the other way around.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 3:00 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


"Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand." ~Homer Simpson


Posts: 4089 | Registered: Sep 2005
Dreamboat
Member
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

With all do respect, this guy is a bluthering idiot who likes to hear himself talk.

He seems to believe that you have cast yourself as a victim your entire life and you have doomed your M because of that. He does not seemed to be able to understand that you are a victim of your WS betrayal, just like someone who is mugged is a victim. Your WS ran you over with a mack truck and this guy is standing over your bloodied body saying "Don't be a victim." He does not seem to realize that before you can begin to heal emotionally, you DO need your WH to accept the blame of betrayal completely. This guy wants to skip over that part and start to work on the issues in the M before the A started, without recognizing that you cannot heal a M when one of the spouses is an unremorseful WS. Perhaps this guy is seeing regret in your WS and confusing it with remorse. They are not the same. I am only speculating here and I don't know what this guy and your WS have discussed. But I do know that if you sent the MC a list of issues you are still having, then WS has done little to address your concerns since dday. And to me, that means he is not fully remorseful.

The one thing that this guy said that I agree with is that I do think he cares. That does not make him any less of an idiot. I do not see 1/2 day of research in anything he said in this letter or the previous letter. He just seems to repeat himself over and over but using different words and sentences.

Cut your losses and go NC with this guy. If you are not in IC then I suggest that you find one. Allow your WS to work on his issues and work with your own IC to try to start to heal and save MC for a later date.

[This message edited by Dreamboat at 2:59 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17632 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
TheGarden
Member
Member # 40788
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

This therapist is:

1) Way too emotionally invested in and worked up about you and your story. A good therapist would not be arguing with a client via email.

2) Completely wrong to be telling you he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what will happen to you or your marriage (if you don't do what he tells you to do).

3) Still a really bad writer. As an academic myself (in the field, even), it is my personal belief that as the writing goes, so goes the thinking process. Rambling, disjointed writing = rambling, disjointed thinking. I don't believe for a second that this person is a serious researcher. If he is, someone else must construct his many journal articles about "issues around sex and fidelity in marriage".

4) Related to #3: uses a lot of five-dollar therapy "buzz words". They sound important and scary, but they really don't add much to his argument.

5) Is trying to manipulate you by bringing up your children. Think of the children, IvyIvy! If you don't come back to therapy with me, your children will SUFFER! You wouldn't want that, would you, IvyIvy?

6) Thinks a lot of himself and his powers of healing / prediction.


Also, I haven't gotten the sense from your posts that you perceive yourself as a victim, only that you are angry with WS (as you have every right to be).

Regardless, even if there are grains of truth somewhere in this opus, this person is at a minimum not capable of expressing them to you (or possibly anyone) in a helpful and professional way. For that reason alone, I would ditch this guy so fast his head would spin.

We have a habit in this country of treating mental health professionals as though they are all-knowing and all-seeing, but the sad truth is that in far too many cases they are just flawed human beings like everyone else, and there are many who are bad at their job. Even the good ones won't be able to connect with every client.

We all have a responsibility to ourselves to listen to that voice inside that tells us when a professional we have hired is not working out for us. There is absolutely no reason why you should ever stick with a therapist who patronizes you, who takes your WS's side, who writes you overly emotional diatribes, who only wants to work on your WS's dissatisfaction with the marriage when you are emotionally bleeding out all over his office floor, or with whom you simply don't feel comfortable. Move on, and please don't feel guilty about it. There are many other fish (mental health professionals) in the sea - shop around until you find someone who helps you cope instead of instigating self-doubt and grief.

[This message edited by TheGarden at 3:04 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


Me: BW, 39, Him: WH, 43; married 9 years, together 13 years
DDay:July 2013; EA progressing to a PA
APs: ex-"friend" & her enabling polyamorous husband
Status: Dual-income-no-kids, 2 cats, taking it day-by-day, married till we're not

Posts: 60 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Florida
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

This MC needs to be reported!
Also, it appears he suffers from a case of narcissism..
Please don't engage with him anymore...,


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4930 | Registered: Dec 2010
Dreamboat
Member
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

5) Is trying to manipulate you by bringing up your children. Think of the children, IvyIvy! If you don't come back to therapy with me, your children will SUFFER! You wouldn't want that, would you, IvyIvy?

Yes, I completely skipped over this. IMO, statements like that are very manipulative and borderline evil.


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17632 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Frustrated  Posted: 3:03 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I do believe this MC isn't being malicious in his intentions towards you. He is just wrong, dead wrong. Clueless in how to really help a BS heal from infidelity.

What he doesn't seem to understand that your marriage is in crisis from your WH's infidelity, PERIOD. That is what needs to be dealt with first and foremost. And, yes we are victims as BS's. We are victims from actions and choices that we had no say in but bear the most heinous of consequences. It does us no good to stay in victim mode, but we should be validated that we were victimized.

Pre A marital issues will be dealt with after the crisis of infidelity is beaten to death with a stick or until you, the BS, says "enough" you have all you need and are satisfied, for the most part, that your WS has truly "gotten" it and has owned his shit 100%. Then we move on to pre A marital issues, communication being probably a very important first step in that journey. Yes, they are fully to blame for their choice. There is blame. WS needs to accept the blame. Nothing in the marriage "made" anyone do something.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9655 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

The guy just totally talks in circles...


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8006 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Gotmegood
Member
Member # 41407
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Yikes! Many many uncomfortable and I even think unprofessional moments from this e-mail have been pointed out already by others. But I will add , talk about throwing guilt! And, I'm sorry, but an e-mail????? "You insist on making yourself a victim" ???? This is not helpful. Just adding my voice, I would dump this counsellor IN A HEARTBEAT.
I'm sorry you ended up with this person, and think that you certainly are NOT behaving as if you want to be a victim, nor ever wanted to be a victim. You seem strong to me. And strong people speak up when something doesn't seem right. Good for you!


Me: faithful wife 62.
Him: WH 64 , prostitute 20 yr old
DDay: 8-13-2013
Status: boinging up and down like a yo-yo

Posts: 465 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Florida
Take2
Member
Member # 23890
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

With something as personal as counseling - a professional should know that not every client/counselor is a good match. Your letter was direct and to the point. The responses you've received are anything but professional. He should be wishing you well and gracefully backing out. Instead he seems to have taken it personally...

And if he'd done any research - I dare say he'd have stumbled on the reality that some people deal with stress by cheating, some are self-destructing, some are looking for a high...

I don't know how long ago your Dday was, I'm assuming it is only recently that you learned of it or sought MC for it -- but your profile says it was a LTA... That is a huge blow!! Now if you'd been in counseling for a year and he was pushing this I might understand it, but directing you toward marital communication issues is like tending to your sprained ankle when you are bleeding out. And telling you that your only alternative is to be a bitter, divorced victim for the rest of your life...? Excuse me? This guy not only sounds arrogant but he sounds like a NPD asshole. And no - I don't believe he truly cares. I think he is more focused on proving himself right and you wrong.

NC - you've said your peace, walk away. He isn't going to be of any help.

Gosh - that letter pissed me off!


"We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." Joseph Campbell...So, If fear was not a factor - what would you do?

Posts: 4113 | Registered: May 2009 | From: New England
Oftencheatedon
Member
Member # 41268
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

No reputable counselor would ever send a communication like this. Extremely inappropriate.

I have associates who work in the mental health field with varying qualifications - psychiatrists, psychologists, LCSW, etc. Not one of them would ever do anything like this.

Not all counselors are good. Some are just mistaken and some like this one are just off track. I had one that I went to many, many years ago that kept telling me that I needed to cut my ties with my mother and do my own thing.

It was laughable as I'd ignored both parents' opiinions on where I went to college, where I lived, etc. I figured that she had a major "mother" issue and had decided that all problems originated there.


Posts: 107 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: AL
undertherug
Member
Member # 41580
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I also had a lot of trouble following the MC's ramblings. Sincerely hope you don't receive a bill for these "services."

Posts: 62 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: United States
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I said it on your other thread and I'm gonna say it again. I have a very strong suspicion that your WH is *trashing* you in his IC sessions with this guy. It may not be an overt trashing, though, it may be your WH who is placing HIMSELF in the victim role. Some people are VERY good at doing that in a very disingenuous and insidious way.

At any point in time did you indicate that you thought the MC was *taking your WH's side*? Because that MC was just making way too many assumptions about you at the end -- "you will probably be certain that [he feels] animosity towards you" and that he has "malevolent intent towards you" and that you think he's an incompetent and arrogant ass and that you will feel that you know what he is really trying to do.

That whole last paragraph is SO FAR outside the bounds of professionalism that it's not even funny. There is something seriously wrong with that dude.

You will have missed an enormous opportunity to believe in yourself and in your marriage to grow and to heal.

I call bullshit on this kum-by-yah crap. This is completely impossible to do if you are dealing with an unremorseful WS.

As ats referred to in your other post, one person can be the greatest communicator in the world, but if the person *receiving* that communication has a fucked-up thought process that doesn't allow them to *hear* you correctly -- then it's not going to make a darn bit of difference......and because of stupid MC's like this one, YOU will remain in a 'marriage' that resembles more of a torture chamber than a safe haven.

In case you can't tell, this really pisses me off for you....


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8006 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
realitybites
Member
Member # 6908
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Listen...my first thought as I read this is that this T loves to right alot of words. WAY too many words.

My T used to respond back to my emails and let me tell you if it was 2 sentences that was it....he basically was not going to have a "fight" with me by email although he let it be my way of 'venting' my thoughts and we would talk about it in our next session.

This T loves to spout a bunch of crap. Loves to be right and loves to make you believe they are helping you while running you around in circles.

A good T will wait until they have you back in their office and help you work thru things you felt you needed to write down.



Posts: 5652 | Registered: Apr 2005 | From: florida
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

While I know counselors may not give the best advice, I have to say this. You know what you are taught in Counseling 101? People lie. A lot. I've had clients get angry at me and say I'm not helpful only to come clean weeks later and admit they were not truthful.

Martial counseling is extremely difficult as you not only have to sort out the information of one person, but 2 people. Do you know what it's like to have a couple play the he said/she said game with you? Completely ridiculous and that hour is wasted trying to referee and create a line of communication.

I could rant on but will refrain from doing so. It's very hard seeing stupid names be tossed around at people who are not actively out to get you but may be misinformed for various reasons.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 4:14 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I read your first post and hesitated to respond because so many jumped to provide very comprehensive responses with regard to their thoughts about your marriage counselor, but I had decided today that I could not sit on the one thought that continued to nag at me, and while we were out, I told my husband I was going to find your post and tell you how I felt. Now this!
Regardless of my feelings about how this counselor relates to you, I have a real problem with a counselor who has spend some time in individual counseling sessions with one partner and then agrees to do marriage counseling with both. I am a counselor, although not practicing, and while I have heard of others here using IC's as MC's, I never saw that as a good idea. In this case, you are unhappy and asking for advice so I cannot stay silent. How does a counselor work with one partner and invest so much time and energy with regard to that one side of the issue (s) and then turn that off to be objective on behalf of the other partner so that both will benefit in a maximum way from therapy? And then where is the safe place for the first person to work through issues privately? I just cannot see how this approach works well in any case. In your case, this counselor seems to be desperate to keep you working on the marriage, but the approach is critical. There are so many statements that are judgmental. I do not know how long it has been since your DDay, but I think the affair issues have to come first, then the marriage issues. And the statements regarding your view as the victim are extremely narrow. You are a victim of the affair, of the betrayal, lies, perhaps having been put in physical danger due to unprotected sex, etc. What you choose to do with that, and how you use your internal power to rise above that will be your own story. BUt to say that victims have no power, no depth, no will, and to take that point of view renders your marriage as over is plain wrong. The audacity of her to express that to you is beyond me. Many people perceive themselves as victims at one time or another. However, that does not mean that they don't work to make themselves strong and healthy. That does not make them lacking in depth, or self-demeaning. This person is too invested in your therapy; she/he has lost objectivity and is not behaving in a healthy, professional way. Find yourself someone who is an expert in infidelity; then you may find yourself working as part of a team instead of you against your W and NC. So sorry!


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 572 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Sorry, TG, this is likely to be rambling and disjointed.

Affairs only happen in marriages where communication is not possible.

Well, that's sort of true for my M - my W simply could not bring herself to communicate with me. That's not an M problem - it's all on my W's shoulders. She accepts that, in part because that's what her IC, who is our MC, teaches.

This guy doesn't seem to realize there are several potential ways for the impossibility of communications to play out.
****************************************

I think it's true that you need to move beyond blame. Your H can help you by acknowledging and accepting his responsibility for cheating. You can do that even without your H's help, but it takes some time.
*****************************************

I'm a big believer/user of Drama Triangle concepts, which I expect 'perpetrator' and 'victim' come from in his email. The trouble is, in betraying you, your H did act as persecuter/perpetrator. You are his victim. That's materially different from being in a DT, but it looks the same. This guy should see that, but he doesn't.
******************************************

It's way too early to guess what you and your H will do. Still, the best way to avoid his outcome is to find a new C.

That indicates that he's dealing with his issues, not yours. I think that he cares and that he wants to help - it's just that WRT your issues he doesn't have the tools. I hope he recognizes that.
******************************************

It probably would have been better if he had obeyed the Command to rest.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:38 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10090 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

This MC certanly cares - he/she cares about being seen to be right. It is their way or the high way to disaster as far as they are concerned and it will be all your fault because you didn't listen to them. This message is all about 'start listening to me - or file for divorce - and be personally responsible for all the negative consequences that ensue. Including consequences to your children'

I think the MC projects all the potential bad outcomes of this situation straight onto your shoulders alone because you are the one not listening to them. They accuse you of having a victim mentality - and also accuse you of 'blaming' your husband - all while they are laying the blame on you themselves.

Personally I would ditch this counsellor pronto. Without question. I don't think there is any point whatsoever in more communication because they are totally inflexible in their surety that they are right.

I also wouldn't want my husband seeing them as IC any more either if I were you. While this person is influencing your husband as an IC I doubt that any other MC you try that has a different approach will be successful.


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1875 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

This is bizarre. Flush!


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9674 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 4:54 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

It is certainly a different approach than the one most on the board support.

I actually found it interesting, and thought there was fodder for thought in there. I actually find myself thinking about the victim aspect a lot. .. And whether it is helpful for me to see my H as a perpetrator. I am not sure that, in the end, is a helpful -or even accurate--way to look at it, even though that is how it feels.

I know I'll get slammed here, but I actually thought the emails were thoughtful, and the counselor seems to care a lot about your case. I read this one a second time, and I'd suggest really trying to hear what he is saying. I don't think he is a quack....at all. I actually feel pretty strongly that he could help you if you'd let him.

Just my 2 cents.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 5:00 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1960 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I am a counselor, although not practicing, and while I have heard of others here using IC's as MC's, I never saw that as a good idea.

I'm right there with you. I'll also take it a step further and say unless you've got a good grasp on your clients as a MC and you are experienced, acting as both MC and IC for the same couple can be disastrous. And everything will be your fault.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 5:08 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Why are you continuing to communicate with an MC who clearly does not get it? It's as futile as trying to get an unremorseful WS to get it.

ETA: I think that, in general, when a counselor serves as both MC and IC to one/both of the spouses, it causes terrible boundary issues. And this counselor clearly suffers from those.

ETA again: I'd lay money that this guy is a narcissist.

ETA again: PM me this guy's name and I'll let you know the quality of his "research."

[This message edited by solus sto at 5:14 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 52, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8691 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Okay yet again I cannot fully read this email because it is too enraging. I cannot, ever, imagine my IC telling me she was upset or emoting at all or justifying herself or even fighting with me or over advocating for her view! Sometimes she nudges, sometimes she asks me to think about something more, or proffers possibilities, but she never would fight with me. And when she does emote in any way it is with sympathy or concern! Not defensiveness!

I am also so icked out by the 'I could badmouthed you in WH's IC but i don't...I could bcc WH but I dont'. Um could you really do those things?! Are those even remotely on the table?! Why do they even need to be mentioned?! It is not taking the high road or something to refrain from those things--it should be the professional expectation!!!

Ugh just so strange and upsetting. Because what you really need right now is to feel attacked!? Honestly. I also haven't especially noticed you taking a victim mentality in your posts here; maybe you sometimes can lean that way IRL, I don't know, but I wouldn't have assumed this was your main mode from anything I've seen in SI. And people are usually pretty open here!

[This message edited by norabird at 6:34 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4165 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:22 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

What a windbag. Blah de blah de fucking blah. This douche needs to just accept hea been fire and go on with life.

He doth protest too much. If he really didn't have the viewpoint from the originally email it would take 3000 word to counterpoint it.

I will repeat from prior post FIRE THE MC, and as your spouses IC FIRE HIM.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8509 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Ivyivy
Member
Member # 42110
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Everyone - thanks for your replies - the perspectives are very helpful. Based on this second email, my thought was that the MC is not trying to be malicious but (outside of the general disagreement on victim and perpetrator) is being manipulative. The back story as to why he is doing this via email is that we went to MC 4-5 times (2 hour sessions) and at the last one, which was the morning after WH and I had yet another fight (can't remember about what), WH stated in MC that he would prefer to be there alone (since it is his IC as well) - so I left. This was a month ago. I have not been back. The MC has texted and emailed in an effort to get me back to MC. Thus the reason everything was via email is because he is not necessarily expecting to see me and have the opportunity to discuss these issues in person.

My perspective on him from the texts and emails - particularly after reading the texts that he sent WH - was that he was acting not as a counselor but as an advocate on WH's behalf.


Me -BW
Him - WH
LTA
DS - 11 and DD - 15

Posts: 181 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast
purplejacket4
Member
Member # 34262
Default  Posted: 8:59 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Wow. This therapist is so inappropriate if consider calling the licensing agency.


Me: BS 45
Her: fWS 48 (same sex partner)
Together: 18 years now (both MDs)
OW: meh so what 40s PhD
DD1: 10/30/11EA; DD2: 11/10/11 Had ONS; TT until 12/26/11; broke NC 6/12; NC again 7/12; R-ish

Posts: 2192 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Great Southwest
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Ivyivy,
I wonder if you are reconciling, or trying to, if you might get some input from that board. I think you may get a wider range of responses there. . . If you are interested in them.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1960 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Oh the Irony
Member
Member # 12354
Default  Posted: 10:14 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

What TheGarden said.

And yes, I would report this person. TOTALLY inappropriate. Just wrong on so many levels.

I'm in school right now to be an LCSW. This is just shitty.


Two gorgeous boys, 14 and 8.
D-day Sept. 15, 2006.
Me, BS 43
Him, WS 50
Her, OG (Guess she is 27 or 28 now! 19-21 at the time...)
Separated. Divorcing. Happily working on myself.

Posts: 735 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: thankful for truth
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 10:30 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

My perspective on him from the texts and emails - particularly after reading the texts that he sent WH - was that he was acting not as a counselor but as an advocate on WH's behalf.

If I'm reading this correctly, he's texting your WH? Inappropriate. That should not happen. Be as angry with the counselor as you want for his own bad behavior but I'm curious as to what your WH said to him.

There was a post not too long ago bitching about how annoying it is to have counselors to be impartial in a case. You can't have it both ways. You can't have someone be objective and a cheerleader for you. This is how it becomes very difficult and why the client/therapist relationship can be very hard to navigate.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:47 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

Your MC is trying to win an argument.

Nobody who tries to help you tries to tell you how you are supposed to feel.

eta:

Also:

Or, maybe, you will think, I am an incompetent and arrogant ass who couldn't care less about you? Probably what you will conclude. If so, that is a shame.

The fuck? Where did this moron fail psych 101? That's about as cliche passive aggressive as it gets.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 10:49 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7444 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
njgal480
Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 10:56 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

I suspect this MC may be a WS and relates to your WH. That's what happened with the first MC we went to. The man continued to take my husband's side and kept telling me that I should be 'over it' by now.
Really? It was 3 months post d-day when I had found out about a 5 yr LTA and I should be over it in a few weeks?
I got the feeling that he was a WS and I asked him if that was true. He did not answer me. Instead he said that was an inappropriate question.
My feeling- if he was not a WS he would have said so and then said it was an inappropriate question.
We wasted 3 months with this guy before I stormed out of the office.
We found another MC that was much more empathetic. She was trained in EMDR and viewed the infidelity as a trauma and counseled us with that in mind.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3163 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)

This whole kerfluffle was started because of an email that you sent to the MC that stated how you were feeling and why.

And this MC responded to you by chastising you. You did your list *wrong*. Your feelings are *wrong* and are going to lead to the destruction of the whole entire FREE WORLD!!!!

This MC's behavior is way outside the bounds of professionalism.

@Stillstings-- it seems that this post has made you stabby. Surely you can see how this MC is not *doing it* right. Everyone knows that there are 3 sides to a story -- my side, your side, and the reality. This MC doesn't seem to have even bothered to try to *hear* ivy or to try to understand what *her* perspective is. He's just jumped right in to (imo) blaming her. This therapist is pretty much re-victimizing ivy with his verbose emails.

So ivy. Have you spoken to your WH about not seeing this guy as his IC anymore?


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8006 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 12:33 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

@Stillstings-- it seems that this post has made you stabby. Surely you can see how this MC is not *doing it* right.

I've already said how this MC is being inappropriate and find their behavior to be wrong. I also have to say people LIE a lot whether because they are deceitful or because they're not ready for treatment. You think this therapy business is easy? It's not. We can only work with what is brought to the table. Many people lie or minimize. We are also very limited in what access we have in terms of intervention outside of harm to a child, elderly or disabled person.

People often fail in therapy because they don't provide us the information. Sorry if that sucks but it's the truth. If you want intervention, you've got to speak up and be honest. Don't lie or withhold. There are lots of laws in place too.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
StillLivin
Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 12:35 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

One word....IDJAT!!!


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2238 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 12:59 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

You think this therapy business is easy? It's not.

Based on my experiences with my stbx, there is no way in hell that I would ever want to be a therapist. And because of him, I would be the world's worst therapist.

We can only work with what is brought to the table. Many people lie or minimize.

You said that you are taught that people lie (medical doctors are taught this also). But there is also the 'bias' that if a person is paying you money and sitting in front of you that they really want to *get better*. But that is not always the truth and it is irresponsible for a therapist to jump on the WS' train and start brow-beating the BS about his/her behavior (as ivy's MC seems to be doing).

People often fail in therapy because they don't provide us the information. Sorry if that sucks but it's the truth. If you want intervention, you've got to speak up and be honest. Don't lie or withhold

Amen. My stbx *failed* at therapy because he was going to his sessions and telling his IC how distraught he was over the state of our marriage and that he was doing "everything that he could"....while withholding the information that he had resumed contact with his OW. I *get* what you are saying. But that is why I am upset about this MC. Ivy DID speak up and provide relevant information.....and this assjack MC completely dismissed her.

You seem to be upset because MC's are being bashed on. But this MC didn't bother do do his due diligence to attempt to reconcile any *differences* in the stories. This MC sucks. All MC's don't suck and it seems that there ARE those who know the proper way to deal with infidelity situations.....but this guy ain't one of them. And I think that we can all agree on that.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8006 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 2:53 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

How does a counselor work with one partner and invest so much time and energy with regard to that one side of the issue (s) and then turn that off to be objective on behalf of the other partner so that both will benefit in a maximum way from therapy?

This. Our MC (that we only used a few times since WH has no follow-through) would not even take me as an IC patient. He referred me to one of his practice colleagues (who is great btw).

The level of unprofessionalism of this MC is unbefuckinglievable. Fire this jerk. Now. And if at all possible, get WH to see someone else for IC.

((((IvyIvy))))


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 24 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 29
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

Posts: 2587 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Bionicgal: I read your response to this second email, and I do understand what you are saying about the victim perspective. I agree that this ultimately is not a view that if kept over the long haul will be helpful for the BS or the WS. However, early on, isn't it natural when having been so severely betrayed and deceived to perceive oneself as a victim? There is nothing about this feeling that should be criticized. Additionally, I even view the WS who goes outside of the marriage and has an affair because of an inability to communicate, poor or nonexistent coping skills, addiction, foo issues, etc., as a victim as well, (although I suspect that I too will be slammed for this statement). It seems that the counselor is stuck on that concept though that viewing oneself as a victim will keep them from making any progress, however I view it as a great starting point to see what one can do to change that stance, to turn oneself from that victim to someone who can be in a position of strength and less vulnerable to succumbing to that role, be it unwittingly again. This can be an opportunity to help the "victims" become empowered and regain control over their lives, and their marriage. That can be the motivation or the starting point for real work to begin. The counselor can embrace this…
I have no doubt that this counselor wants to see the marriage work and I often feel that counselors can be so concerned about being objective that they often take longer to help their clients get past an issue in an effort not to interject their own opinion and bias; this is a function of their training and the efforts of a conscientious therapist, although not necessarily the most effective. So, I do agree with Stillstings: the client/therapist relationship is clearly one that is difficult to navigate, and there is no therapist who will be effective with EVERY client. In this case, the argument about whether or not this person is good or not seem mute; it is the BS feelings about his/her competence that is the best predictor of future success, or in this case I suspect failure. Find someone new for the MC, and if your husband is happy and feels safe remaining there in IC, let him; He is making the effort to expire and grow. he may outgrow it and move on, or his perspective may change when he sees the new MC's style and Point of view.

[This message edited by Neverwudaguessed at 9:40 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)]


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 572 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
Ivyivy
Member
Member # 42110
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

I doubled down on my highly unusual means of trying to resuscitate this marriage...

For some reason - this is the language that sticks with me. It is like the cryptic discussions with WH. How can a therapist think that this type of email would in any way be helpful to a BS.

[This message edited by Ivyivy at 9:40 AM, February 23rd, 2014 (Sunday)]


Me -BW
Him - WH
LTA
DS - 11 and DD - 15

Posts: 181 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

It does us no good to stay in victim mode, but we should be validated that we were victimized.
This is what I posted on page 1, bionicgal.
I actually feel pretty strongly that he could help you if you'd let him.
And, that is why I disagree with you on this point, bg. This MC doesn't validate any of ivyivy's feelings. He continues to tell her she is wrong to have these feelings. Wow! I just find it astounding that a therapist would be telling a client that they were wrong to feel any particular way.

How about validating and reframing?


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9655 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

I once had an OW ask me to help her work out a plan to sit down with her boyfriend and his wife, and explain to her she, the OW was in charge and they would have a 3 way relationship. BW was totally in the dark as the WH and girlfriend were planning on telling her what was going on and they wanted a professional to facilitate and somehow make the conversation more valid.

What would you have done to validate this?


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

I am not a therapist. I have gone to quite a few. I wouldn't go to one if they told me my feelings weren't valid. I go to a therapist to share my feelings and have the help of a therapist to work through my feelings.

Stillstings, you are the therapist. What did you do with the OW? Did you validate her feelings and then try to reframe and redirect? I am hoping you didn't browbeat this OW by continually invalidating her feelings because that wouldn't be helpful, would it?


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9655 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Ivyivy
Member
Member # 42110
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Stillstings - I think context is important. I may be a little nuts these days with everything going on but the things I took issue with are that WH has made many promises that he has backpeddled on, etc., and that whatever issues we may need to address in our marriage, the A comes first and is his fault, regardless of whatever other issues might exist.


Me -BW
Him - WH
LTA
DS - 11 and DD - 15

Posts: 181 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)

I wanted to kick her in the ass and tell her how stupid she was being and laugh at her.

I didn't do that. I asked her what was she getting out of this relationship she'd been in for 5 years. I asked her to think about what it would be like to try and dictate a relationship with a person who may or may not be willing to play by her rules. Tell her to her face why she'd be the better mate and repeat all the things her husband said about her, she's too fat, she sucks as a cook. Would she also be prepared to not have her boyfriend leave his wife? What then?

That was the initial conversation. Next was delving into her past to figure out why she felt this was okay. She eventually started to realize how inappropriate this was. That was a conclusion she had to reach on her own. No browbeating. I was objective which I know so many people find to be obnoxious but you are not allowed to bail on clients and fire them.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Stillstings, you are a much better therapist than ivyivy's. You didn't tell the OW what you really wanted to say and do. (I love that you wanted to kick her ass. )
Next was delving into her past to figure out why she felt this was okay. She eventually started to realize how inappropriate this was. That was a conclusion she had to reach on her own.
See, you did validate her, but continued to lead her to the place where she needed to be.

ivyivy's therapist isn't validating her or leading her to be able to make her own conclusions but is just telling her how wrong her feelings are.

I have a deep respect for therapists. I couldn't do it. I am too emotional. See, I would have laughed in the OW's face and told her to get her skanky ass off my couch as I didn't want OW cooties on it.

But, not all therapists are good. Plain and simple. Or, others are good in one area but not so good in other areas. That is simply a fact.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9655 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

I've already said that there are terrible therapist and good ones as well just like any other line of work.

I can see where this guy is coming from but he doesn't express it well. If he needs to be fired it isn't because he's an idiot (or some of the other choice terms that get tossed around)but I feel involving the WH as a client individually was an error. I don't agree with seeing a couple individually for that very reason since one can influence the therapist more heavily than the other with very bad or good results.

Staying objective with one person is difficult. Staying that way with 2 people? Possible but even more difficult.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
Stillstings
Member
Member # 36549
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

I've already said that there are terrible therapist and good ones as well just like any other line of work.

I can see where this guy is coming from but he doesn't express it well. If he needs to be fired it isn't because he's an idiot (or some of the other choice terms that get tossed around)but I feel involving the WH as a client individually was an error. I don't agree with seeing a couple individually for that very reason since one can influence the therapist more heavily than the other with very bad or good results.

Staying objective with one person is difficult. Staying that way with 2 people? Possible but even more difficult.


Love yourself. You're worth it. Face your self. You need to do it.

Posts: 363 | Registered: Aug 2012
RidingHealingRd
Member
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, February 23rd (Sunday)

Unprofessional on so many levels. Find yourself a new MC and cease communications with this babbling fool.


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 3.5 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2109 | Registered: Nov 2011
absolut
Member
Member # 37933
Default  Posted: 12:30 AM, February 24th (Monday)

Ivy,

Do you mind me asking how you and your husband became acquainted with this counselor? Also, what type of counselor is it (psychologist, LCSW, etc)?


Posts: 421 | Registered: Dec 2012
bitterbetrayal
Member
Member # 26326
Default  Posted: 3:35 AM, February 24th (Monday)

Please please find your own IC. I also recommend the best article I have ever read on dealing with infidelity. I have shared it with my own IC. After nearly five years of reading everything I could on the subject this article has been by far the most useful. It's long but well worth studying. Your MC is way off track. https://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course047.php


ME.BS 55
Him.WS 55 and a priest!
D-DAY 12/07/09
D-DAY-2 14/08/09
MARRIED 25 YEARS ON 25/08/09
BEEN TOGETHER 28 YEARS
TWO CHILDREN 20 and 22.

Posts: 160 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: UK
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, February 24th (Monday)

I actually found it interesting, and thought there was fodder for thought in there. I actually find myself thinking about the victim aspect a lot. .. And whether it is helpful for me to see my H as a perpetrator. I am not sure that, in the end, is a helpful -or even accurate--way to look at it, even though that is how it feels.

I know I'll get slammed here, but I actually thought the emails were thoughtful, and the counselor seems to care a lot about your case. I read this one a second time, and I'd suggest really trying to hear what he is saying. I don't think he is a quack....at all. I actually feel pretty strongly that he could help you if you'd let him.

This is pretty close to how I felt as well. I thought the delivery was unhelpful because s/he was being passionate rather than clinical, which tends to spark defensiveness in the reader (and clearly has) but the content was important and actually really useful.

I had a fantastic IC, and this was her take home message as well: you can be victimized in ONE ASPECT of your marriage, but you are not "a victim" as that demeans you as a human being. If you look at a marriage as a zero sum game, the marriage can't be sustained. If you can never see anything other than zero sum after working very hard at it, then divorce is the only path.

I think the issue with that message is that the therapist is taking a very solid big-picture long-game view, and what a very new BS wants is the slice that comes in the days after discovery. You can't SEE that big picture yet because you're trapped in the moment. You need the ER, stop the bleeding type of care.

This is why an MC never seems to work in the early days after dday. An MC can do that kind of "stop the bleeding" on a marriage, but a marriage is, as this therapist said, not about the husband or the wife as polarized entities, but the space in between the two and the mutual places you inhabit. So if you want validation as an all-or-nothing, '100% victim in the marriage or I'm totally out of here', then the MC is pretty much not going to be of use. There's no room for an MC to work within that framework, just an IC (to get you to the point where MC might be an option) or a divorce lawyer.

Yeah, I get that the fact that the email was written passionately and personally made it unprofessional and I agree with that. I'd be put off if the relationship I had with my IC sparked that kind of emotion from her - but then I like my IC to be clinical because then I can be as emotional as I want without fear of dragging her with me. She was my "ground". But I also get that the therapist was trying to show you the big picture view (which if you're unable to see, you would be completely within your right and all reasonableness for your stage post-A) - to show you that there was a path and a plan, and the things you were focusing on had a reasonable place within that path.

To me I feel this therapist acting as an MC would be great for the marriage healing stage, which probably comes later for you in the healing process, if R eventually becomes your/your WS mutual path.


Posts: 3192 | Registered: Mar 2005
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, February 24th (Monday)

I can see where this guy is coming from but he doesn't express it well. If he needs to be fired it isn't because he's an idiot (or some of the other choice terms that get tossed around)but I feel involving the WH as a client individually was an error. I don't agree with seeing a couple individually for that very reason since one can influence the therapist more heavily than the other with very bad or good results.

I do not understand your personal stake in this and the defensiveness with which you are approaching things.

It's easy to see the good in things when you snip away all the nastiness. Taking away all the negative language and confrontational attitude leaves a space for discussion regarding the underlying motive and method of this therapist.

The email in the first post spent a massive effort in time telling her what she was thinking, feeling and seeing. There were a few if/then statements but I did not see any questions asked other than the aforementioned confrontations. "Who asked you to accept blame for WH's choice?" is an attack. Period. A reasonable communication of that statement is "I did not ask you to accept blame for your WH choice." It doesn't even need an apology or clarification. Asking that as he did sets it up so she questions herself, and he continues in that same vein the entire email.

I don't see where she portrayed herself as a victim. All I see is someone who behaved unprofessionally by chastising and defining a client, without ever once asking any questions about her feelings of safety, well being, continued therapy with other counselors, etc. He asked nothing that was not framed as an attack on her perception of the situation.

I will stand by my opinion that this man is either an idiot, or has an undisclosed motive.

eta:

Also, to speak to this directly:

While I know counselors may not give the best advice, I have to say this. You know what you are taught in Counseling 101? People lie. A lot. I've had clients get angry at me and say I'm not helpful only to come clean weeks later and admit they were not truthful.

Martial counseling is extremely difficult as you not only have to sort out the information of one person, but 2 people. Do you know what it's like to have a couple play the he said/she said game with you? Completely ridiculous and that hour is wasted trying to referee and create a line of communication.

I could rant on but will refrain from doing so. It's very hard seeing stupid names be tossed around at people who are not actively out to get you but may be misinformed for various reasons.

I have been in IT for 20 years now. At this point I am as high as I can go without becoming management, which I hate, so I am back in school to get a physical therapist certification and ultimately a degree.

Everyone lies. That's all there is to it. There are days where I spend hours working a simple issue because a professional colleague is being a dick in CYA mode and not giving up basic information. It could be something as simple as he is not qualified for his job and has no idea what he is doing, or that he made a mistake and took down an entire global trading network.

I started in end user tech support. I hear shit about support people all the time. You know what? A lot of support people suck. They deserve the derision they receive, when it's applied in specific. There are a lot of general comments that get stuck in my craw but people are going to be people.

If there was a sentiment regarding therapists in general in this thread, then I missed it. Most of what I have seen has been directed at the therapist for the OP.

Yes, sometimes I take hours to fix something, or bust it up even more, because of a lack of information provided by a client or the clients IT employees. It is frustrating, but I can't see how it would apply to, say, a thread in OT bitching about Savvis Tier 3 support.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 9:08 AM, February 24th (Monday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7444 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
OnAnIsland
Member
Member # 34319
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, February 24th (Monday)

get out. find a new counselor. no more money for this one. and no more wasting your time.


D-day: Christmas 2011
D-day 2: 3/28/2013

Married for over 15 years
2 beautiful boys in elementary school

You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. Maya Angelou


Posts: 1478 | Registered: Dec 2011
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Oh yeah, and PLEASE keep your emails that he sent you and use them as proof of his inability to be a decent and reasonable counselor when you file a complaint against him with his lisencing board, and whatever health organization he is associated with. Dropping a line to your insurer is also a good thing to do. They like to know that if they should not be paying claims by inept providers.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8509 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
circe
Member
Member # 6687
Default  Posted: 2:33 PM, February 24th (Monday)

However, early on, isn't it natural when having been so severely betrayed and deceived to perceive oneself as a victim? There is nothing about this feeling that should be criticized.

This wasn't directed at me, but I have some thoughts on this. I don't think anyone should be criticized in therapy for any feeling they have (with all the usual caveats in place). However there are most definitely ways of looking at yourself that are harmful, and a good therapist will help steer you away from those self-representations while examining their source and the path you took to get there.

To me this email sounded like an attempt to reframe the victim role as one that shouldn't be embraced. In essence it said, "if you embrace being a victim, then this is the most likely path that this will take..." - which is true, and logical, and therefore I think needed a way more padded delivery than you got.

But try to remember that the things that piss us off the most are the ones we should look more closely at as we move forward. Sometimes it's a post on SI. VERY often it's something said, suggested, revealed or uncovered in therapy. Maybe the things we are upset by are just upsetting things - or maybe they are things that bear closer scrutiny as we find the strength to invest that energy.

Therapists say things that rub patients the wrong way all the time. I'm not sure I see anything in here that is "file a complaint" worthy, but that's me.

There is a ton of caring still invested and buried behind the rage. Maybe I am giving voice to the caring that neither of you can express towards each other.

This especially struck me. There is a ton of hope in that statement.


Posts: 3192 | Registered: Mar 2005
Topic Posts: 57