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User Topic: Keep me strong - but how to know if they are finally remorseful?
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, February 24th (Monday)

So STBXWW posted publicly on FB yesterday:

"When you don''t forgive, you don''t change the past. You change the future".

Which is true as things go, but the question is,

If you''re during D and NC, how do you know she''s remorseful. Really remorseful?

Going to my L in a minute, but I wanted to ask this from the SI crowd. Could she be that she got kicked off the fence? Over text the other day she said "he''s not in the picture anymore".


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
KatyaCA
Member
Member # 41528
Default  Posted: 1:02 PM, February 24th (Monday)

That is not remorse. That is "please pack your bags I'm sending you on a guilt trip."

Forgiveness doesn't change the past either.


Posts: 60 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Pacific Northwest
RealityStinks
Member
Member # 41457
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, February 24th (Monday)

"he's not in the picture anymore".

^^^Heard that on Super Bowl Sunday, got my hopes up because she said all the right things, and then I caught them together Monday. But that was "the first time they had been together in months". Please.

Unless she is kissing your feet, begging you not to D, and meeting ALL of the items on your list for R, keep that D train rolling down the tracks my friend.

Hang in there buddy.

[This message edited by RealityStinks at 1:17 PM, February 24th (Monday)]


Posts: 414 | Registered: Nov 2013
peacelovetea
Member
Member # 26071
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, February 24th (Monday)

If you have to ask, its probably not remorse, or at least has not been remorse long enough to know its sustained enough to trust.


BW, SAHM
D-Day: 6/5/09, drunken ONS on business trip, confessed immediately, transparent, remorseful but emotionally clueless
M 11 years, 3 kids
4/12 Tried to R for 3 years, have decided to D
12/31/12 D final

Posts: 542 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: PacNW
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, February 24th (Monday)

A text that reads "He's not in the picture anymore" does NOT equate to her coming to you, face to face, with snot bubbles, begging forgiveness and showing you that she's willing to work her ass off to earn back your trust.
That text was nothing more than bait. Do NOT nibble on that line or she'll have you hooked again in no time.


Me - 42
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4yrs, together 7yrs total

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
5 Furkids (3 Dogs, 2 Cats)

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW)
Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

Note: I edit often for typos/clarity.


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, February 24th (Monday)

I don't know how you can ever be sure without lots and lots of time....but do I know one facebook text and dangled text are not the signs!


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 3608 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, February 24th (Monday)

She's all talk and no action, GP.
Has she given you the passwords to all of her emails and various accounts?
Has she gone to any counseling sessions? And I don't mean the same old tired line PROMISING to go...has she actually GONE?

Better yet, has she even come to you and said, "I fucked up. I own that. What are your requirements from me to reconcile?"

Nope. Therefore there IS no remorse.
She may be regretting her actions, but it is still all about HER and you are a soft spot to land.


Me - 42
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4yrs, together 7yrs total

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
5 Furkids (3 Dogs, 2 Cats)

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW)
Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

Note: I edit often for typos/clarity.


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
IrishLass518
Member
Member # 34373
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Again, that is not remorse, it is bait to keep you on the hook. Remorse is accepting that she needs to do the work for HER and when/if she's "gotten it", she will be better for you. You have to take care of yourself until you see the truth in her actions.


Me: 45 BS Divorced
Him: 45 Married OW
DDay: 07/04/2008
Divorced: 06/15/2011
5 kids: IrishLass 27,IrishLad 25, IrishLass 22, IrishLad 21 and IrishLad 12
"You can't run from trouble..there ain't no place that far"

Posts: 1672 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: WA
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, February 24th (Monday)

How can snark about your failure to forgive possibly be interpreted as remorse?


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 52, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8300 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
Freeme
Member
Member # 31946
Default  Posted: 3:56 PM, February 24th (Monday)

not remorse - Sounds more like someone that wants to keep her Plan B on the hook paying her bills for as long as possible.

She is probably just starting to get the feeling that you are serious, her lawyer might have told her that she isn't going to be getting that much Child support...

You can find someone that loves you for you. She sounds truly horrible please don't take these little scraps as true remorse.


Posts: 199 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From: Washington DC
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, February 24th (Monday)

How can I help her understand what true repentance looks like? I am at work, but I fished these two articles

http://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2012/04/four-approaches-forgiveness-ranging-from-cheap-to-genuine/

And for me,
http://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2012/04/the-ten-steps-of-acceptance-healing-yourself-when-forgiveness-of-the-other-is-not-the-best-option/

Don''t want to send them to her and break NC, but she probably needs to read these. She has "After the Affair" but I don''t think she''s read it.

And yes, it feels like I''m plan B. I just filed the response at the L.

I hope she doesn''t ratchet things up now that she''ll be "lonely" without OM. Crap. And on the week that I''m going to be busier than heck and hence low on emotional defenses..

Thank you everyone!


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, February 24th (Monday)

How can I help her understand what true repentance looks like?

You can't and honestly it isn't your job to shepherd her healing.
You've filed for D. Maintain NC and let her feel the consequences of her actions.

If at some point WAAAAAYYY down the road she's done the work and comes to you a truly changed woman, then you can consider R.
At this point, she hasn't even asked.

Don't let her get you all twisted up with this new game. You'll just be providing ego kibbles and a convenient diversion until the next "sucker" has been nailed down.

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 4:11 PM, February 24th (Monday)]


Me - 42
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4yrs, together 7yrs total

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
5 Furkids (3 Dogs, 2 Cats)

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW)
Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

Note: I edit often for typos/clarity.


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
Nature_Girl
Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, February 24th (Monday)

You are not her conscience. You are not her inner voice. You are not her holy spirit. You are not responsible for what she thinks or feels.

She is a grown-ass adult woman. If she truly gave a shit, she would figure this stuff out on her own. This kind of information is out there on the internet and on bookshelves in spades. She would not need anyone to open her eyes and help her see. She would do this for her self. She would be self motivated.

She doesn't even care enough about her self to do the work. You think she cares about you?


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9233 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, February 24th (Monday)

@GabyBaby - she has said "I fucked up. I own that".

She hasn''t asked the requirements for me to reconcile. Although I have told her repeatedly, and my last letter to her had that list. At the time she complained that it wasn''t "romantic".


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
bent44
Member
Member # 31386
Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, February 24th (Monday)

A text that reads "He's not in the picture anymore" does NOT equate to her coming to you, face to face, with snot bubbles, begging forgiveness and showing you that she's willing to work her ass off to earn back your trust.
That text was nothing more than bait. Do NOT nibble on that line or she'll have you hooked again in no time.

This exactly!


"If you marry a chicken, don't expect an eagle."


I don't know if my chicken will ever become an eagle. But rest assured, I'm going to be a phoenix. Nevermind that I am still in the ashes stage of the process.

Update...he


Posts: 673 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: California
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, February 24th (Monday)

She's dangling the carrot to get you to do the work. It's her work to do. IF SHE REALLY WANTS TO KNOW - she can ask you! Bb


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4818 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
bent44
Member
Member # 31386
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Sorry to be snarky, but if she can figure out how to have an affair, she can figure out how to be remorseful. You could not control her actions then, and you can't control her actions now.

Please do not do her work for her...it may be tempting because you think it will move you forward, but unless she finds her way on her own, she will remain lost.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh. It is just my opinion. And I am going through a bit if a bitch boot stage.

Please take care of yourself, trust that she is broken. You may be broken hearted, but that can be fixed. Whether or not she can is yet to be seen.


"If you marry a chicken, don't expect an eagle."


I don't know if my chicken will ever become an eagle. But rest assured, I'm going to be a phoenix. Nevermind that I am still in the ashes stage of the process.

Update...he


Posts: 673 | Registered: Mar 2011 | From: California
IrishLass518
Member
Member # 34373
Default  Posted: 5:09 PM, February 24th (Monday)

You will know remorse when you see, hear and feel that she is putting YOU first and not herself first. When what she wants means nothing next to your needs. When making it right to you and for you is more important than "rugsweeping" or how uncomfortable it makes her. When you see her humbled by the consequences of her own choices and accepting that remorse and reconciliation on YOUR terms are the only path to redemption from you.
That is what you are looking for


Me: 45 BS Divorced
Him: 45 Married OW
DDay: 07/04/2008
Divorced: 06/15/2011
5 kids: IrishLass 27,IrishLad 25, IrishLass 22, IrishLad 21 and IrishLad 12
"You can't run from trouble..there ain't no place that far"

Posts: 1672 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: WA
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, February 24th (Monday)

@GabyBaby - she has said "I fucked up. I own that".

Gently, just because she says something, that doesn't make it true.

I can say that I'm a 5ft 11, 110lbs, swimsuit model. Does that make it truth?
In fact, I'm a 5ft, 5in, <insert weight here>, accountant.

She's offering words without action.

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 5:26 PM, February 24th (Monday)]


Me - 42
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4yrs, together 7yrs total

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
5 Furkids (3 Dogs, 2 Cats)

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW)
Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

Note: I edit often for typos/clarity.


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
gypsybird87
Member
Member # 39193
Default  Posted: 5:28 PM, February 24th (Monday)

She hasn't asked the requirements for me to reconcile. Although I have told her repeatedly, and my last letter to her had that list. At the time she complained that it wasn't "romantic".

She seems to be under the impression that forgiveness by you is the only thing necessary to "change the future" between you. And per the above quote, no effort is required by her.

Wow... she is either really lazy, really in denial, or just doesn't care at all. I agree with the other posters. This is bait, and not even tasty, tempting bait. It's bullshit on a stale cracker. Don't bite.

((gotplayed))
You are strong.


Me: Looking forward to the future
Him: Left behind in the past

Rock bottom became the solid foundation on which I rebuilt my life. ~ JK Rowling


Posts: 658 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Oregon
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, February 24th (Monday)

You are strong.

Trying to be..

I have DivorceCare class tonight. I will also ask about codependency courses.

I can''t believe I was doing so well in NC and I''m feeling like I fell off the wagon.
Haven''t seen her in person since Jan 11th. The next time I see her will be on mediation.

I''m letting my beard grow (I want to have a DiCaprio-style goatee but I don''t know how to make it yet). Last time I did that was 2 years before I met her, so it should be interesting. She hates facial hair.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 10:20 PM, February 24th (Monday)

The good thing about falling off the NC wagon, it's easier to climb back on.

The saying around SI is "NC=no new hurts". It helped me stay on the wagon.

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4818 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
badmedicine
Member
Member # 41692
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, February 24th (Monday)

Maybe your beard can make you strong

Did I miss something? Did you actually respond to her, or is this broken NC mostly self-torture? I totally get it, and obviously the best NC is when she doesn't even enter your mind. I struggled with this, too....how can I see if R is really possible if I'm filing for D and using NC? Well, the answer is that you can still see actions. If she really wants to do the work she will find ways to act that will allow you to rebuild trust and that won't require conversations. Eventually you may consider opening yourself up to R, but maybe not. It helped me to lay out on paper what R would really look like, with examples and a timeframe of when I thought that would occur. Just doing that showed me that what he was doing was really just a tiny speck of something compared to true R. Organizing this on paper helped me immensely. Maybe it can help you, too.


"The wishbone will never replace the backbone." -Will Henry
"This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it." -Dorothy Parker

Posts: 173 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: United States
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 12:39 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

No, I responded to her, after a frustrating exchange detailed here - http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid523675 - titled "Reverse Financial Starvation and Push/Pull at the same time"

So no self-torture, but yes. It''s hard because with her being a SAHM, not caring about paying bills or getting a job, and young kids there''s no avoiding contact. Though I do my best - haven''t seen her in person since early January, and haven''t talked to her and she hasn''t heard my voice since around the same time. Our first in-person meeting will be the child custody mediation, and that''s the way I want it. I hope I''ll be able to keep this NC until then.

I ended up doing the goatee tonight, just based out of a picture. I''m not blonde like good ole'' Leo D but it looks good anyway. I avoided some details in the edges and upper lip because it''s my first time and I didn''t want to ruin it (he probably "has a guy" that does that for him).

DD8 (who was watching) and I both think it looks great. I''ll readjust as it grows. Way better than just leaving everything as if I forgot to shave forever - I was getting nervous people would think it was lack of self-care and take pity on me. I''m going to look pretty different at that mediation meeting.

Anyway, I''m back to NC, except for saying no to her tonight when she asked via text (during my DivorceCare class) if I could take the dogs while she''s out (WTF?). I love my ex-dogs but I already have the kids and work and paying her bills and yada yada. Of course I said no.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 12:51 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

I've heard that YouTube has all kinds of videos. I'm sure that you could find some video that describes how to *do* your facial hair.....


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 7675 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
careerlady
Member
Member # 16958
Default  Posted: 1:24 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)


She seems to be under the impression that forgiveness by you is the only thing necessary to "change the future" between you. And per the above quote, no effort is required by her.
Wow... she is either really lazy, really in denial, or just doesn''t care at all. I agree with the other posters. This is bait, and not even tasty, tempting bait. It''s bullshit on a stale cracker. Don''t bite.

^^^This

Sorry I''ve been busy today but I just HAD to read this thread. Don''t get played again, GP, avoid the BS stale cracker!!!!


Me (BS, 35); The Snake (WS, 36) 13yrs together; 1 baby boy (DOB 7/12)
Serial cheater-Multiple OWs, Multiple D-Days
D by default 5/3/14!
Hasn't moved out yet
Summary: http://youtu.be/iaysTVcounI

Posts: 930 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Northern California
WeepingBuddhist
Member
Member # 39139
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

oh, puuuleaze. Much like my X, she just wants people to think well of her. Don't give it a second thought and don't let her manipulate you. She is NOT a nice person and forgiveness is about YOU not her.


Me: BS 46
Him: LCB--lying, cheating bastard 50
D-Day 4-27-13
DIVORCED!!! 2-20-14

Posts: 515 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Columbus
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

She said there was "too much hurt", when I fell off the NC wagon. And I agree, but I wasn''t the one hurting her, that''s for sure. OM hurt her, she hurt me, and maybe I said some things I shouldn''t have, mostly justified, in my attempt to distance myself from the insanity and make a space for my kids to have a stable parent.

But it''s actions, not words, that matter. And my actions have always been decent, even when angry (I''m the type that slows down when angry so I don''t overreact).

Maybe she thinks it''s the opposite. Words matter, but if you''re treated like dirt you should take it. That''s what she seems to have learned from OM.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Abbondad
Member
Member # 37898
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, February 25th (Tuesday)

kissing your feet, begging you not to D, and meeting ALL of the items on your list for R

...And even IF, Gotplayed, be on your guard. I got all the above several times and was duped. One time this "remorse" lasted almost two weeks!

It seems to me true remorse knows no time limits. I'm not saying (assuming you do become convinced she is remorseful and you begin reconciling) you would have to punish her for the rest of your lives, but she is beholdened to you to set the duration. In my opinion it would take years.

I wish you the best.


Divorced April Fool's Day 2014

Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
-Dune


Posts: 1571 | Registered: Dec 2012
GotPlayed
Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)

That was one of the very first things she yelled at me about after DDay. That I was going to "hold this on her head forever" and that she was going to lose all the power in the relationship.

I asked her - so you think our relationship was about power???

It really gave me the creeps.

I wouldn''t hold it over her head forever, only until I knew she had changed. And she hasn''t.

At some point when she was opening up a bit she said she enjoyed with OM that "she was the man" in their relationship. WTF?

I didn''t really know her until those two moments. Made me wonder how long she''s thought I''m a freaking doormat.

Nothing against the "I am woman, hear me roar" crowd or anything, but I think she misunderstood the intent of feminism. Completely.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 552 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
Twitchy
Member
Member # 25393
Default  Posted: 2:42 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)

I'm probably going to get 2x4's for this, but I noticed a remarkable change in your relationship dynamic after DD.

Before, I wasn't really a door mat, but I would probably be categorized as the typical modern, urban male. I would suck up my baser "aggressive" tendencies because I didn't want to be overbearing or a macho douche. I kept my WW on a pedestal.

After DD, I didn't care about reeling in my aggressiveness. She was off the pedestal and if I was angry, I let her have it. If I was randy, she knew that too. I didn't become a douche and I respected her opinion, but neither did I hold back in expressing mine like I used to.

Well, at least in our situation, turns out finding my balls was exactly what I needed to do. I didn't demand her respect so she didn't respect me.

I think this has something to do with the reason Alpha Male types are simply more attractive to women on a subliminal level.

I'd appreciate a female perspective, or flaming rant, on this.


BH(me)-49, FWW-43,
D-Day #1 - Oct 2007 - On-Line EA leading to a failed rendez-vous
D-Day #2 - Nov 2008 - In person EA caught early.

Away you will go, sailing in a race among the ruins.
If you plan to face tomorrow, do it soon. Gordon Lightfoot


Posts: 607 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Ontario - Canada
WeepingBuddhist
Member
Member # 39139
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)

I don't know if it's a rant, but as a woman I pretty much say what I think and try to be honest. It seems a lot of men think that if they are straightforward, they are being assholes BUT there are in my experience a lot of men who can be clear about what they think (and FEEL) without being aggressive or passive aggressive. Being respectful and polite are completely acceptable in an "alpha" male.


Me: BS 46
Him: LCB--lying, cheating bastard 50
D-Day 4-27-13
DIVORCED!!! 2-20-14

Posts: 515 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Columbus
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, February 25th (Tuesday)

I don't know if it's a rant, but as a woman I pretty much say what I think and try to be honest. It seems a lot of men think that if they are straightforward, they are being assholes BUT there are in my experience a lot of men who can be clear about what they think (and FEEL) without being aggressive or passive aggressive. Being respectful and polite are completely acceptable in an "alpha" male.
Amen.


Me - 42
SorryInSac - WH#2 - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4yrs, together 7yrs total

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
5 Furkids (3 Dogs, 2 Cats)

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW)
Legally married 18yrs, together 16.5yrs

Note: I edit often for typos/clarity.


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
Topic Posts: 33