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Just Found Out
User Topic: Is this idea dumb?
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

First off: I posted for the first time yesterday and the responses have been so helpful. Because of that I must come back to the well for wisdom.
Here goes: 3 months in I've read numerous books, IC, MC, SI etc. All in 100% on saving marriage. WW in "the fog". No transparency, IC, did MC until we stopped because we couldn't get past transparency and IC.
I am CODEPENDENT. Last night took her out for nice dinner and show. Said she's not gonna do IC (Never talked transparency).
Was going to file for divorce Tuesday but am wonderring if 3 months is too soon if there is a chance she's in "the Fog". My wife is ultra defensive and would shut down if I filed. Is a short term plan the 180 vs filing? I've been trying to "nice" us back to health and this obviously has failed. I have given her all the power. I truthfully think this could work. I normally kiss her goodnight to which she is cold. Last night I gave her a fist pump goodnight. This triggered her to call out "goodnight" a second time before I left the room. Has anyone tried the 180 before seperation and divorce and seem positive results? If nothing else the 180 would sure help me so I will do regardless. Thanks for the help as always.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
annb
Member
Member # 22386
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Hi, justinpaintoday, so sorry you find yourself here.

The 180 is designed to help YOU detach. Sometimes it will help push the WS out of the fog, sometimes not.

You will never "nice" your WW back into the marriage. You need to put yourself in the driver's seat and deliver Shock and Awe.

I did not find this site until almost 4 years post D-Day, but there were some things I did right upon discovery:

1. Insist on NC.
2. Complete transparency.
3. Work travel comes to a complete halt.
4. Focus on the marriage and family.
5. No socializing on the job.
6. Accountability for his whereabouts at all times.


^^^These were my initial requirements. Several were added as time progressed. Infidelity is a devastating blow, but I was strong enough to make it perfectly clear that I would not tolerate bullshit. Period. My way or the highway. Anything less would have resulted in me going to his boss (A with co-worker), meeting with an attorney, and outing him to his family and friends who thought he was the epitome of a family guy.

It worked for me. WH was scared to death of losing me and our children. He did TT me to death, but everything else I requested of him was done without hestitation. That's the sign of a truly remorseful spouse. Actions, not words. It's been almost nine years since D-Day, and I STILL have access to everything. No going back to blind trust.

You can meet with an attorney and file and stop the process along the way. It is never black and white. You have to be willing to lose the marriage in order to possibly save it.

[This message edited by annb at 7:34 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)]


Posts: 7462 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Northeast
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Thanks for the reply. Right now I get nothing regarding transparency. IC not gonna happen. The struggle with codependancy is the urge to "save" her from herself. Is there a chance? Could I just convince her to fight for us? I realize reading these posts that I am living on Fantasy Island. I just can't get my heart to where my head is yet. Somedays "yes" some days still believe there's hope. Crazy.

I am going to implement 180 NOW. This is for me. Regardless of the outcome in my M I need to break my codependent ways. I was going to file Tuesday but think I might need a little more time to get myself there...I don;t trust my own thinking right now and want to make a clear choice.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

You have been trying everything you can to save this marriage...but the person who broke it isn't lifting a finger.

Stop. Stop everything you have been doing. It's not working. You are getting the same results. Change tactics.

Detach.

180.

If she comes around..great. If not, then you are in a healthier frame of mind to handle what's to come.

Oh...and who pays for the phone or Ipad, or whatever device she uses to contact these OM? If it's you, turn it off. Stop funding her affairs.


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7297 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

confuse: The phone is on her parents plan. We got into a fight and she broke her other phone on our plan (that I could monitor) and then got a new one on her parents plan. (Yeah I know how that looks....they are enablers).

I don't think she is still cheating but then again have NO DAMN CLUE.

Detaching and 180 start today...we have not seperated so the house is tense (not horrible as we seldom discuss anything). 180 will be good for me. I need to start rebuilding my own self esteem and value regardless of M outcome.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
BtraydWife
Member
Member # 42581
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I think filing for divorce is the best way to get her to commit. You'll know right away what you're dealing with.

I've spent the last 4 years trying to "help" my WH understand. All he's tried to do is avoid doing any work on the M and he has twisted the things I've said and his therapist has said into believing he's "standing up to me" when I'm pissed at him for still mistreating me.

4 years - still mistreating me

I can't express how much I regret not kicking him and out and filing in the beginning. I should have been much harder on him.

I didn't think I was trying to nice him back but in reality, I was. Even if I was demanding, and holding him accountable, etc. And it's all because of my codependency issues.

Kick her out and file for d. If she changes her mind and commits to healing your marriage you can always not follow through with the d.

You only get one chance to set the stage for possible R. It won't work the way you have been doing it. However much you half ass giving her consequences, she will equally half ass her commitment to reconcile.

She meets all of your minimum requirements or she's out the door. No exceptions. Anything else from you implies an agreement that she doesn't really have to do those things.

Be stronger than I have been. You deserve to be treated well and to be safe in your marriage.

((Justinpaintoday))


Me-BW
Him-WH
DD-March 2010
TT for 6 months
Unremorseful for 3.5 years

Delay is the deadliest form of denial. - C. Northcote Parkinson

Your standards aren't up for negotiation just because he/she can't meet them.


Posts: 1418 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: United States
brkn_heartd
Member
Member # 30396
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

You have already been given some great suggestions. As mentioned, if you file for divorce, it doesn't mean you have to go through with it. I tried the nice, but he was still in his relationship and wasn't ready to end it. When I told him I was moving toward divorce, he finally got it. I wish I could say everything was perfect after that, but it wasn't. We still struggled, but 4 years later in a good place.

As far as R, if you file and kick her out and she wishes to remain married, list your conditions, your boundaries and consequences FIRST. Such as...required to participate in IC or XXXX, 100% transparency or XXX, no lying about anything or XXXX, full disclosure-finding new information after full disclosure results in XXX. You get the point. That even will help you if any thing happens, you will have already made your decision on how to handle it and will not be waffling later. I wished I had done that first.

Work on the 180 for YOU. You will occasionally break it, if you do, dust yourself off and start again. It is different and can be difficult to put into place when first starting (example, engaging in a conversation that later you wished you had not). Do see an attorney if nothing more than to find out your rights.


Me-51 BS
Him 58-WS
Married 31 yrs, together 34
Affair Aug-Dec 09
official D-12/14/09
broke NC 1/31/10
second D 3/19/10

Posts: 1565 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Northwesten US
Merlin
Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

'Nice' your way through this?

Doesn't seem to be going to well, does it?

The 180 (a real one, not what you are pretending is a 180) may save your marriage. What you are doing is just assuring the status quo.


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/57 Me: BS/63 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1164 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

You have said that before..that you don't think she is currently cheating.

Why?

I don't mean that to sound sarcastic. Im sincerely asking why you believe she isn't cheating? All of her actions indicate she is. But we only have what you post to go with, and of course you can't write every little thing down, so you know more about this than we do.

My concern is that YOU are in a BS fog. A BS fog is different from a WS fog. Their fog is basically an easier way to say they are behaving selfishly, their head is up their ass, and are so blinded by their affair they can't see reality.

A BS fog varies. Your dday was very recent. You have been traumatized. You have an unremorseful, cruel WW who is taking advantage of your pain. You are desperately looking for the woman you married. You are trying to bargain, beg, stand on your head to get her to find remorse. All understandable. Your entire world has shifted and you really need to believe she isn't cheating still. This is one of the reasons we recommend the 180. You need to start focusing on you..healing you..making yourself feel safe. It will help you come out of your fog.

The quickest way to get her out of her fog? File for divorce. Go for custody. Stop being her friend.


BS(me)41
FWH 45
4 kids..21,20,11,9
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Happily Reconciled.

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7297 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

It might be best for you to along with the 180, do some detective work on your own.

You continue to believe she will come around and be like the good old days, that cannot happen until she realizes what she did do is very wrong.

Nothing can happen positive if she is still having this affair.

Does your wife come home on time, do you know where she is all of the time?

Maybe it is time you actually find out if she is still having an affair. You can use a gps tracker in her car.

Is there ever a time you could have a look at her phone.

Did you ever contact this OM?

Until you get tough, she is going to continue her comfy ways.


Posts: 3754 | Registered: Jun 2002
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Reread confused615's last post. Then read it again.

I understand all too well what codependency is....as do many other members. We also know that it is an unhealthy trait, and is a focal point of your future well-being. If you haven't read it yet, find the book "Codependency No More".

Have you been going to IC?

Merlin is correct---not only have your current methods failed, but have made you look even worse in your WW's eyes. You need to dig deep down in yourself, and find your righteous anger...and use it constructively. Stop making compromises in your own head. Get to a lawyer, immediately, and if nothing else, learn where you legally and financially may wind up post-marriage.

Stop focusing on your WW. Focus on you. Not only would I be working on a *real* 180, as Merlin points out, but I would be working on as little contact with your WW as possible.

I know that this all seems counterintuitive, but believe us---we have been down this road before. Not only is your WW's behavior textbook, but so is yours. And they are both the wrong way to behave. You, in particular, have to stop selling your soul to the devil. You are compromising every good trait that you stand for. You are allowing her to steamroll your good intentions, and are not enforcing good boundaries. I know that it hurts to be where you are right now...and you would probably cut off a limb to get things to return to the good times...but it is just not going to happen.

The only chance you have to achieve that, is to get yourself to a point that you could walk away from this now toxic marriage. Only then, MAYBE, will your WW pull her head out of her ass. Forget about "fog" talk for a moment, because you are desperately trying to apply logic to an illogical situation. Your wife is a remorseless liar and a cheater, who is not only continuing to do so, but who is arrogantly throwing it in your face. She is so high on her perceived "power", that she has nothing but disdain, and a total lack of respect, for you.

It is time to take that power back. You are stronger than you currently believe.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 9:58 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)]


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2035 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
hopefulmother
Member
Member # 38790
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Agree with others.

You will never nice them out of an A.

Just stop and think about it. Nicing (not a word) requires emotions. Which at the time are really warped and confusing for them.

You need to detach yourself to heal. 180. Stop worrying about the outcome. I know that is hard to do. But after you detach you will understand what this means.

No longer give her the cake (fight for what she doesn't clearly want right now). Be cold and indifferent. When she doesn't get her cake or her comfort zone, it may shock her into reality.

Go forward without her. Shock her into reality.


Me-BW 39
WH-39
D-day 9-4-12
Major TT 8-14
Friends for 20yrs dating since 2000
Married 9yrs with 2 toddlers
My wedding band is a symbol of hope, forgiveness, love, and grace.

Posts: 933 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: PA
OK now
Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 12:38 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I would file for divorce and start the marriage clock ticking. She then knows its up to her to change her attitude and make a real effort to save the relationship. If she makes no effort then you have your answer; she just doesn't care.

First of all you need to accept the possibility of divorce yourself. Don't use a threat of filing hoping she will change; you have to accept the real possibility that this marriage could very well end because of her chronic indifference and lack of respect.


Posts: 1704 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
frenchmoxie
Member
Member # 42665
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Justinpain,
I am so sorry that you're going through these rough times but I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I read that you gave her a fist bump good night


D-Day: 2/22/14, together for 8 years
Me: BS, 29, living w/chronic Lyme disease
Him: WS, 29, OW was an ex-coworker

I found e-mails between them.


Posts: 62 | Registered: Mar 2014
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I don't tink the 180 is a dumb idea. I really like what Confused wrote you.

The next time you go out for dinner w her, it will be bc she is out of the fog and trying to reconnect w you. She will be the one asking, wooing, paying for it. And instead of the bedtime fist-bump, just head upstairs, tonight. Be sure to stop at the top of the stairs and let her know you prefer to sleep alone too.

You can do this!

[This message edited by LA44 at 3:41 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)]


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2227 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 5:15 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Thank you so much everyone. Confused I did reread your post several times...thanks. I have felt myself coming out of my fog the past couple weeks. The idea of being without her is not overly threatening anymore. I think I cling more to the idea of being with her than the reality of who she has become.

I definetely have been too nice. I make conditions and then back pedal in fear. Sheesh I am learning alot about myself through this. I see weaknesses I certainly need to work on and strengths I never new I had.

I think I am getting to the point where it doesn't matter how much I love her, I can't make her do the right things around accountability. I can;t make her want to fight for it.

The funniest thing is she has never had to do a thing. Works 10 hours a week for fun money. I pay all bills, grocery shop, cook or buy must dinners....she does no housework. I have been an accomplice in creating this situation of entitlement and privilege.

If we D it will be entertaining to watch her have to work a full time job, pay bills and if in a relationship, actually participate with chores. Her wake-up call may not come til after a D but it sure will come.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I think you have gotten some really solid advice so far.
Personally I would recommend telling her you will no longer be disrespected and tolerate her absurd o you an your marriage and there are absolutes that you demand, yes demand she does or you will file and those will include complete transparency, IC, NC, and accountability od where she is 24/7.
Give her one week to comply and institute a very hard 180. During this time you see a lawyer, and get your ducks in a row. The feat of pushing her away is I e all BS's have however it is irrational as our WS's have already left.

Keep reading, keep posting. Her anger and defensiveness tell me she is still in her A. Do not have sex with her until you are certain it's over and she has proven she is STD free.

It's time to make you number one. Do not allow her happiness determine how you choose to fin yours. Time to figure out what makes you happy. When I did tho with my horribly codependent self I was surprised to realize tht if I was happy and demanded the respect I deserved I was much much happier.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8144 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Thanks Tush appreciate the kind words of support. I am struggling with filing D or placing the ultimatums first. I have IC Tuesday and can help talk it through then. Until then I am becoming an honorary student of 180.

I know everyone says do it NOW I just gotta place myself in the right frame of mind to make things clear. Tuesday is also lawyer day. Once I give the ultimatum she will say NO and I would like to be in the position to file within the day and get the jump.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Sheesh I am learning alot about myself through this. I see weaknesses I certainly need to work on and strengths I never new I had.

This is a very honest and admirable statement jipt.

I said last year that I always determined to "get something" out of this terrible mess. I absolutely have a better understanding of myself (not always pretty) and what I want for our M).


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2227 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 5:37 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Thanks LA44: For me I am determined to either be a better husband for my WW after this if we can R or I will be a better husband for my next wife if the opportunity is there.

I am a man of strong faith and my relationship with God has certainly been strengthened. In addition I have started to form new friendships at church and at work (healthy ones).

Regardless of outcome I know I will learn and be better regardless of outcome.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
happyman64
Member
Member # 33212
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I like what Ok Now wrote.

Your wife has been testing you. Possibly pushing you so she can walk away from the marriage.

So give her what she wants.

A divorce.

She lies. She cheats. She has a PA and multiple EA's with multiple men.

And what do you do? You forgive her.

How can you possibly forgive her when you do not know the extent of her wrongful actions.

Go see an attorney and file.

You then watch her actions.

That is what will truly make up your mind.

And until she knows remorse and participates in the marriage you have nothing.

So get tough. Act tough and show her tough love.

That will be the only way you will get her respect.

HM


Posts: 824 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New York
inmisery1
Member
Member # 30905
Default  Posted: 6:09 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Get tough, my husband was undecisive about OW until I told him I was leaving. You need to detach yourself and not to manipulate her, but for your own protection. You have nothing to lose at this point.

Posts: 217 | Registered: Jan 2011
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I pay all bills, grocery shop, cook or buy must dinners....she does no housework.
This is a great place to start.

How about she pay her own bills and cook her own dinner starting now.

By doing these things, she will see that you can no longer be walked all over and will get her out of the fog of the affair.

I forget...Is this OM married?


Posts: 3754 | Registered: Jun 2002
LeftOutintheCold
Member
Member # 42856
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

justinpaintoday - Even though my experience is brand new, I have learned that being nice is NOT going to do the trick to get your WW back. She'll just continue to take advantage of you. We have to find our inner strength to take a stand against the mistreatment we are receiving from our spouses.

The advice we're finding in SI is awesome! The best I have heard so far is: we must risk our M in order to hopefully save it.


Me - 42
WH - 40
Dday - 3/6/14
Married 5yrs, together over 10
Status - still separated

Posts: 328 | Registered: Mar 2014
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 7:38 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Well unfortunately no one could tell me my WW response was anything but wrong. I knew it too but the heart is a tender vessel.

I was thinking today about the selfies she still takes. She never sends them to me so all I can do is assume another man gets to enjoy these. I think I am finally understanding that this 3 month hell ride is not going to end happily ever after.

I still struggle with the low self esteem question: Why wasn;t I enough? And even now why am I not worth fighting for? I know these are unfair to ask myself but they do hang in my mind. I would have done anything to save this M.

Perhaps filing for D will create a dramatic change. Perhaps not but I will continue IC and SI as this progresses. I will need support more than ever. Is 3 months too soon to file considering her unwillingness to transparency or IC? I know I have to answer this myself.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
LeftOutintheCold
Member
Member # 42856
Helpless  Posted: 7:47 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

I believe it is completely natural to question our own faults in this devastating time, but we HAVE to learn that it's not our faults. We have to keep repeating that to ourselves until we believe it. I still go round and round with myself about something HAD to be wrong or he wouldn't have strayed. However, then I think - HE must have the problem if felt like his only solution was to look outside our M. I have to keep telling myself that I'm a good person - probably too nice of a person - and I did nothing to deserve this treatment. You must start to think in this manner too. While my situation is only a couple of weeks in, yours is 3 months. You need to detach yourself from her and take time to really look at yourself and what you want out of life. Being alone is a very scary thought but I think you are still too close to the problem to think clearly. ((hugs))


Me - 42
WH - 40
Dday - 3/6/14
Married 5yrs, together over 10
Status - still separated

Posts: 328 | Registered: Mar 2014
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Thanks Left out. Weird. everyone here is like a sister, brother, and friend all at once. Stay strong.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Why wasn;t I enough? And even now why am I not worth fighting for?

I know you don't see this yet, but YOU are not the problem here (unless you keep taking her out for dinner). She is. YOU are enough. Repeat that time and again. The fact that a grown woman is taking selfies and possibly sending them out is just so ridiculous at best. That pretty much shows you the shallow state of her mind right now.

Is 3 months too soon to file considering her unwillingness to transparency or IC? I know I have to answer this myself.

I have read many times on here to wait 6 months before making any life changing decision. Even people who are sure they are going to R bc all is going well wait it out just to make sure. This is all SO EMOTIONAL/impossibler to rational. Of course, this is a decision only you can make. Why not start with the 180 as you decided earlier. And as someone suggested, so some investigating to see what she is up too. Remember, the 180 is a way to start taking care of YOU so that no matter what happens, you are in a much better place.


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2227 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
LeftOutintheCold
Member
Member # 42856
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

We all are in this together. Unfortunately. You stay strong too!!


Me - 42
WH - 40
Dday - 3/6/14
Married 5yrs, together over 10
Status - still separated

Posts: 328 | Registered: Mar 2014
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 8:00 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

LA44: I like your advise. The 180 is going okay today on day 1. I think I am so eager for something to happen to close the frustration that D seems like the only logical option. I don't have to force it. I can follow whatever timing best suits my course.

HOWEVER: I hear everyone loud and clear. No more pandering, begging and nicing the relationship thinking WW will change.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 8:10 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

Well, thank you jipt. I certainly was never in the position you are in now so I think a lot before I respond...but I ask myself, what would I tell a friend. There are a few guys on here who post often with some good stuff - you might want to follow their stuff: Wert, Blakesteele and the brief but wise, Sisoon.


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2227 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 8:54 PM, March 23rd (Sunday)

She never sends them to me so all I can do is assume another man gets to enjoy these
I can understand your complete frustration. You want your wife back to the way things used to be. That is the worst part of all.

You want your wife to be at least sorry for what she has done and you hope the 180 does this for you.

But from that I have seen, your wife is not coming out of the fog of the affair as long as she is still having an affair, that is impossible.

The OM is telling your wife everything she needs to hear right now. Things like the affair is the right thing to do, you are wrong in telling her how to live, etc.

The OM is helping your wife rationalize the wrongs and making all of this seem like the best thing to do.

You need to get this affair stopped if you want a chance that your wife will ever get out of the fog.

Is the OM married?
DO they work together?
Have you confronted him?

Do not let the affair be so damn easy for them. Get the affair out into the light. Fight for your marriage by getting this OM out of your life. Now your wife will see this as something you are doing to hurt her. But hopefully when the OM throws your wife under the bus, as many times happens. Your wife will snap out of the fog.


Posts: 3754 | Registered: Jun 2002
UneasyFeelings
Member
Member # 42292
Default  Posted: 12:36 AM, March 24th (Monday)

Sorry for read about your situation brother. You can click my profile and read my story. I too, have a WW.

I didn't discover SI until a couple of weeks after my DDay. But you know what, I did do a decent job of "following the rules" without knowing about them. I guess, it just felt logical to me.

So you're 3 months out from your DDay and you're still on square #1.

Every situation is different, but it's amazing how things are so common too.

Here's what you have to do. You have to start thinking about yourself. Simple as that. You have to be selfish in a sense.

Ask yourself, why do you love your wife. Why do you want to make it work. Is your wife the same person you fell in love with?

Do you really want to be with this person knowing what she did? Is she trying to fix the marriage or situation?

Is this marriage even worth saving? Is your WW worth the fight?

If you have to, write it out and read it to yourself.

Man up, take charge of the situation. You're in the drivers seat. You command where that vehicle goes. Not the passenger. Decide which way you want to go, left or right.

But if the left side has a road block and is flooded, well, you only have 1 option. The sooner you realize this, the better off you will be.

Be strong. Take care of yourself. I know it's easier said than done brother. But think with your head(the one on top of your neck) a bit more, and less with your heart.

As stated by others, do not use divorce as a threat. It really has to happen. You're trying to use it as a form of manipulation. Doing the same thing she's doing. She's manipulating you too.

[This message edited by UneasyFeelings at 12:43 AM, March 24th (Monday)]


Posts: 100 | Registered: Jan 2014
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, March 24th (Monday)

WW PA was last summer. I have very little concern the PA is still active. It was a one night stand. The concern is the potential for EAs and in general the online fantasy playing with othet men. I have no evidence it is still occurring but certainly not in a position where our M is protected from it.

It is very apparent my WW killed our M in her heart a year ago when the communications with other men started. I know she is staying to eat cake and a slight sliver that there is hope. Lately her heart has been hardening. I know her well. I believe she is demonizing me and focussing on the negatives (2 percent of M) as a defense mechanism. The couple times she did face the raality of her choices she broke down in tears ashamed

I figured I would file tommorrow but my heart keeps hoping and raising doubts. I cant give you a good reason why i want to be with a wife that cheated. Refuses to invest in R. Does nothing for me. I cant even tell you why I love her. But I do. Is it wrong to delay filing a few weeks until my heart feels strong enough? I began the 180 yesterday. It sucked to not be so wrapped up in her (codependant) but I felt better watching out for my health.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
damaged71
Member
Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, March 24th (Monday)

I feel compelled to tell you about my story since they are so similar. Remorseless WW who was a SAHM that had everything provided for her.

I caught her and she sat on the fence and basically rubbed the situation in my face. She didn't know what she wanted to do and I doted on her to try to get her to see my side.

At some point during that time she had to go out of state to visit a sick relative. I couldn't go. I fretted over what might happen and so on. You know what happened when she left? Nothing. My "drama" was gone and I finally had some peace. I realized right then if she walked not only would I be OK but my life would be easier.

When she got back things changed. I wrote up and handed her a list of things and told her "If you do anything on this list you are CHOOSING to be divorced". I laid it all on her. I told her "if you choose it, it's ok, just know it is your choice". "once I file it's over FOREVER". It wasn't an idle threat either I had my lawyers cell phone number. She would have had papers in a matter of hours from my phone call.

Once I did that it the fog was gone. I was willing to walk and she knew it. It wasn't fun and games anymore.

What you don't realize is you have ALL OF THE POWER in this situation. She just has you convinced you don't.

let's be honest, this is what you have to offer

The funniest thing is she has never had to do a thing. Works 10 hours a week for fun money. I pay all bills, grocery shop, cook or buy must dinners....she does no housework. I have been an accomplice in creating this situation of entitlement and privilege.

All she has to offer you is a cheating spouse.

Negotiate accordingly.

You know what keeps me up at night? It isn't the fact of what happened. It's the fact that I went through all of the pain I did and it was completely in my power to stop it.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 342 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, March 24th (Monday)

Thanks Damaged. I am sorry for your pain as well.

You are right 100%. Everyone is on this post. I wish being kind, loving, loyal and giving was enough to make people do the right thing. I can do that all day.

I have set boundries. Transparency and IC only to backpedal when she refused. Last week I told her IC and going back to church is enough. (She again got defensive and refused). I backpedaled again. I could insist on these things again but I already know what the answer will be: refusal and defensiveness.

When I took her out for a nice dinner and show she told me at dinner. I want to be with a man that accepts me for me and won't tell me "i'm angry all the time". I tell my wife nice things all the time. When we argue she gets really angry (bad for a conflict averse person). She is mad a lot. She can't own up t that. Her parents are also pumping her up with "your great he sucks" support as well. Even though they called me "son" for 20 years.

It's hard, so hard to do what's best for me. I just like knowing she's there. The idea of being alone scares me. The idea of starting over scares me. I love being married and sharing my life with a woman (my wife). The idea of the fairy tale ending kills me. Disappointing my children. Losing all my in-laws and the family times. HOW DO I GET PAST IT? How do I know that I know that I know I did everything possible and the M is over?


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
twisted
Member
Member # 8873
Default  Posted: 9:16 AM, March 24th (Monday)

For me I am determined to either be a better husband for my WW after this if we can R or I will be a better husband for my next wife

Correct attitude
Is it wrong to delay filing a few weeks until my heart feels strong enough?

Wrong attitude!
Your heart won't feel stronger in a week, or a month, unless YOU decide to take control of your future.


"Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?

Posts: 893 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: Oklahoma
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, March 24th (Monday)

Thanks twisted. Agreed ....self enpowerment has been my biggest challenege


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, March 24th (Monday)

(((Justinpaintoday)))

Keep the faith brother.

I sent you a PM.

Busy day so don't have much time to respond and read all of the posts.

I read your responses....I can relate.

I am glad you found SI when you did, I did 6 months AFTER my DD.....horrible, co-dependent choices were made by me during this period.


I had a very unremorseful spouse during the first 12 months.....she found regret earlier....but that was based on loosing her relationship with her AP. Yep, pretty horrible thing to have to accept.

Wife reluctant to MC, refused IC...she thought I was the weak one....and I went along with that charade (f codependency!). Don't allow yourself to do this.

Insist on IC for BOTH of you.....wait for MC. I know it may be scary for you, but right now you are both in it for yourselves. I foolishly thought we were in this battle together at the begining....like you would be if one of you was diagnosed with cancer. Sadly, this is as far from the truth as possible. Our wives very clearly, through their actions, displayed where their desires and allegiances rested.....they have had time to "warm up" to their lot in life while in affair land.....we had no such opportunity. This is why your posts resonated with me so deeply.....you are struggling as I have struggled. Time to post-pone helping your wife....you need IC for yourself. You need it because you are overloaded by this event. You need it because you need to break your part of what I suspect was a destructive cycle within your M pre-A. You need it so that you can tend to your hurts....both that were inflicted by your wife and those you inflicted upon yourself (codependently and subconciously...but you still hurt yourself).

Choose therapist wisely....make sure they are schooled in adultery. It is a unique stress with unique affects on you.


GOOD NEWS!!!! My wife DID find remorse, I accepted and forgave (2 different process's) her, offered R and we started true R about 6-8 months ago. I am 22 months out from DD #1 now.


Keep in mind your wife IS seeing what she can and can't take into her future.....what she can and can't keep alive from your past. The answer is simple.....not much. Same for you.

You did nothing to make her choose adultery, you could not have done anything to keep her from this choice. There were dynamics in place long before your discovery....most likely started in childhood.


I don't come into JFO very often.....because of what happens when I read posts like yours. It brings me back to a very dark place.

I see and feel your state of being. I was there.

You can and will move through this trial just as I have and am doing.

God is with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:40 AM, March 24th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3609 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, March 24th (Monday)

BIG NOTE HERE:

There is a time and a place to exercise righteous anger.

When your wife chose and is choosing adultery (reluctance to take responsibility for her sin)....it is a perfect time and place to exercise righteous anger.

A grievous act has and is being committed. It is in direct conflict with Gods commandments...and is strongly disobedient. We are called to expose and defend against this....for our good as well as for the good of the offending party. Ultimately, they have to choose for themselves...but we are absolutely called to expose this for what it is. Righteous anger is a prudent, responsible way to do this.

I point this out through probably too much projection......it took me 2 months of weekly therapy to get in touch with my anger. That is how broken I was, how far I was willing to hang on to my codependent nature.

Peace.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:47 AM, March 24th (Monday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3609 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, March 24th (Monday)

Lots of good advice here jipt. Glad to see blakesteele weighed in. Your stories have some similarities. He has bee posting for a while and has done a great deal of introspection.

Finally, I recall another guy who was here. I recall his name but won't name him. He was pandering to his WS, back-pedaling and making excuses for her. She was trying to pin the blame on him. He doesn't come here anymore but if he does I suspect it will be to say that a) his wife is still not remorseful or b) she has had another A. Bottom line: what he was doing was not going to work - ever. I do think you GET this. Its now a matter of implementing. We are rooting for you!


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2227 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, March 24th (Monday)

LA44 what is jipt? Thanks for the encouragement. I unfortunately know what I have to do to preserve myself. I have IC tommorrow and will discuss how to stay focussed. My counselor got me to realize I needed to inform my wife what I needed. I went home and said "I love you but I have some unmet needs as your husband physically (not sex though she thought this), emotionally, and mentally. I said I need you to come back to church and I need you to start IC."

We didn't talk for 3 days and then she said she refused both to which I back pedalled. I know I know don;t say it: Bad Call. No courage. I am seeing from the posts that if I do nothing the M may survive but I will suffer or if I stand behind healthy boundries: the M may survive with a lot of work or the M may fail but I will be allowed to keep my sanity.

I'm getting closer. The advise and encouragement are helping. IC tommorrow should help me formulate my thinking. I just am not sure if I should file then place boundries (again) or place boundries and then....never mind, I've placed boundries 10 times to no avail. My only option is to file and let my WW response decide the next move.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
LA44
Member
Member # 38384
Default  Posted: 8:20 PM, March 24th (Monday)

LA44 what is jipt?

Sorry! jipt is your "handle" - initials only, JustInPainToday! I do it to be quicker. But I don't have too if it bothers you.

Okay...no lectures from me. I hope tomorrow's IC's session will be very helpful for you. I recall my IC being somewhat....skeptical about me posting on a site dedicated to A's but I assured her that it was very helpful, that I am aware that some people project and that I get a lot of "aha" moments from it. Excellent reading material too in the Healing Library.

Keep us posted justinpaintoday!


Me: 44
He: 47 WH
Married: 15 years
D Day: December 2012
Affair: Fall 2009 - Dec. 2011
R is not linear

Posts: 2227 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Canada, eh
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, March 24th (Monday)

Thanks....jipt works for me. (ceretainly been called worse :)


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
blakesteele
Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, March 25th (Tuesday)

Courage.

I lacked this too.

God has and is usug this trial to make me courageous.

I pray for courage a LOT. Looking back, I see God was at work within me all along.......sometimes through other people, sometimes by presenting another trial I had to "courage up" all in my own.

While, as LA44 and my PM to you indicated, we share a similar start to this journey......you are finding truths and being honest months ahead than I did.

This bodes well for you.

Your wife? Pray for her but don't enable or take the burden of her sin on your shoulders. You have your own to shoulder..... Suspect you will uncover things about yourself you need to repent from. Your energy is better spent on things you can change and mature.....you.

If you have a good IC they will guide you to healing.....but you will need regular courage to do this as well.

Keep in check and analyze every choice you are thinking about making. Feelings aren't right or wrong.....choices made based on those feelings are what determine if it is sin or not.

(Sin = destructive). (Healthy = constructive).

Might help to think about what each of your actions are "fighting for". Actions that minimize your pain and enable your wife's sin are NOT worth doing.

I am still working in forgiving myself for my actions immediately following my DD's. (Yep, plural.).

Also helped me put my oldest daughter in my shoes......how I would feel if my daughter "fought for her M" in the way I started to. Talk about making it real!!!! Watching my daughter beg her husband to stay with get while he tells her he just doesn't know what he wants. Dreadful! .......and that is part of me now . A part that I choose then, and will not chose again. I know this. My wife knows this. It is how we are called to serve.


God is with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3609 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Dawn58
Member
Member # 37656
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, March 25th (Tuesday)

I had to focus on the actions, not the words. My WS showed no remorse, talked like he was on the fence, but he told me to leave when I confronted him on the affair, he refused to go into counseling and was blaming it all on me.

I filed for divorce about 6 weeks after Dday. His actions told me there was no reconciliation. My hand shook and I cried when I signed the papers but I know, for me, it was the best thing I could have done. Not easy, and very painful for me.

I do not consider myself a very courageous person, but somewhere there is a core of strength. You have it too, trust it.

So glad you are working with a counselor and have found this site. You are not alone and there is so much support here for you.


I got into the marriage, because I loved him. I got out of the marriage, because I love me.

Posts: 467 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Southern California
LifeisCrazy
Member
Member # 38287
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, March 25th (Tuesday)

For many it is simply too emotional to look your wife in the eye and make demands. Often she sees through your sadness and recognizes that your heart isn't in the demands.

As everyone has stated, you need to put yourself back in the driver's seat. There's only one way to do this and it is to take a solid stand that defines what YOU need. It may be too difficult for you to do this effectively through words.

Write out exactly what you need, your requirements for reconciliation. Begin your list with absolute, 100% no contact. Transparency. Independent counseling. These are non-negotiable. You don't need to make the list exhaustive but it should be clear.

Then, have the divorce paperwork in your hand. Give your list to her and simply tell her that these are your requirements. It is what you expect of her and the list is non-negotiable. If she wants to save the marriage and do the hard work necessary then she needs to agree. If she reads through the list and says, "No," then hand her the divorce paperwork. This only means that things are proceeding toward divorce - but she isn't going to recognize that it can be stopped if necessary.

Then walk away and see what happens. Maybe she takes an hour, or a day, to think it over. Maybe she packs her bags and leaves. Maybe she curls up in a ball and realizes that she's just thrown her marriage in the toilet. Whatever it is that happens - YOU DO NOT COME BACK TO HER! You continue with the 180.... you're not there to console her, make her feel better, be a shoulder to cry on.

It is now on HER. It is HER time to run after you. To beg. To openly offer your transparency. To ask you if her no contact letters are sufficient. It is HER time to commit.

It is time for you to turn the tables and begin showing her that she no longer determines the fate of the marriage. She's either in or she's out.

I know how hard it is. But it is time to man up, grow a pair and stand up for yourself.

You know what? You might be surprised by her reaction.

I wish you luck.


"Pain is temporary. Quitting is forever."

Posts: 158 | Registered: Jan 2013
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, March 25th (Tuesday)

Thank you everyone...I saw my attorney and he is beginning the paperwork. I absolutely do not want this in my heart but my mind has made it pretty clear that with no commitment around transparency and IC from WW I woul dbe destined for a life of pain. Her desire to rugsweep and not truly work on the issues is sad but reality.

Blake: Thank you for the wisdom:
Your wife? Pray for her but don't enable or take the burden of her sin on your shoulders. You have your own to shoulder..... Suspect you will uncover things about yourself you need to repent from. Your energy is better spent on things you can change and mature.....you.

I do pray constantly. Even though I filed does not mean I am not hopeful for R. I hope it will knock her out of the fog but either way it is the healthy thing for me and my children.

I filed knowing I was honorable until the end. I forgave (w/out full disclosure), I supported and encouraged. I was and still willing to do everything "I" can other then begging and pleading for her to do the honorable things.

I have read Codependant know more and will check out Dobson Tough Love book as well. Thank you to all and I will keep you posted on progress. I still stay in this forum because I am so new and raw, and the D has only just begun.


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, March 25th (Tuesday)

You are doing great JustinPain. This is such a hard road to walk but at least we, the ones who have been betrayed, can walk it knowing we have done our best.

Stay strong, know your own worth, and accept nothing less than respect and remorse from your wife. If she can't give that to you, it will hurt, but it is not about you in the end; she will be the one who has failed.

Hang in there.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4082 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
Topic Posts: 49