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william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, March 27th (Thursday)

The full back story is here -> http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=519502

The cliff notes version is still VERY LONG.

My wife and I are approximately 40 years old. We have been together about a decade, and married for about 8 years. We fell in love quickly, moved in together, got married, and have a 7 year old daughter together. We lived in Germany for most of those years and about 4 years ago we moved to Italy. Our marriage has had its ups and downs. About 3 years ago we hit a serious down point; we stopped doing things together, stopped having sex, stopped most of our talking together, etc. I am not sure which came first – I detached in response to her screaming incredibly hateful things to me or her screaming incredibly hateful things to me in response to me detaching. In either case, it got worse and worse during this two year period.

In Aug 2011my wife decided to pull away permanently without telling me. The hours of her work suddenly increased and 2-3 nights a week she would be out and come back home much later, she always told me it was work related.

In Winter 2011 my wife’s mother developed serious health problems, she would later be diagnosed with terminal cancer. My wife’s father has always had serious health problems, for as long as I have known my wife he is often hanging on to life by his fingernails, and often requires intensive care hospitalization. My wife began to care for both of them. She also had an argument with her best friend at this time. For a few months she stopped going out altogether except to see/care for her parents or for work.

It is important to realize that my wife’s family is abusive in EVERY sense of the world. Verbal abuse. Emotional abuse. Drug abuse. Physical abuse. Sexual abuse. It was all there. As examples – my wife’s mother used to masturbate her brother at night to “help him” until he was about 12, as a small child my wife had to share a bed with a female cousin who masturbated herself every night before sleep, heroin addicts crashed out on the couch, etc. It all happened. My wife has massive black holes in her memory, whole years, where she can’t remember ANYTHING during that time.

Obviously caring her for parents and spending lots of time around them was very stressful for my wife. At this time I knew there were serious family issues, knew some of the issues, but had no idea of the vast extent of problems and issues – my wife told me some shocking stories sometimes but I never really understood how systematic and pervasive the problems were, nor the extent of them until very recently.

Early in 2012 my wife’s mother was hospitalized off and on and the amount of time she had to spend with both of her parents drastically increased, evidently Italian hospitals have no problems with shoving as much of what they should be doing to care for their patients onto the shoulders of the patients families (even feeding the patients, for example) and my wife felt obligated to take these burdens … so she spent a lot of time at the hospitals. She was going out “maybe” one time a week with her girlfriends and not staying out very late.

My wife’s mother died in July 2012 and her father was completely unable to run the family business. It quickly became apparent that massive amounts of cash were missing with no one knowing “how” or “where” the money had gone. By August 2012 my wife was working at the family business, which was time intensive in nature and as the extent of the problems became more clear she began to work more and more hours in an attempt to save it. Despite these long hours my wife began to go out more and more, spending longer out each night, and always going to the same club. By September she was going out almost every night. By the end of October my wife was sometimes spending the night out, claiming that she was staying at her cousins house or with a friend. Frankly it was hard to tell where she was and what she was doing because she was very secretive and the family business required her to get up very early in the morning (0400 or so) before I was awake and often I couldn’t really tell if she had even come home and then left or just stayed out. Sometimes my wife wouldn’t even come home at all, when she did it was usually only for an hour or two, and often for substantially less. Even getting my wife to come home for dinner or breakfast to see our daughter before or after school became very difficult and was a minefield for an argument. I tried to talk to her about always going out/being away from home, not seeing our daughter, not being around, etc but never did it in the right way. My wife was always angry at me about everything. We stopped talking. In the midst of arguments we would threaten each other with divorce or separation but we never did it. Whenever I asked where she was it was always “work” (which was 14+ hours a day) or out with her girlfriends.

In April 2012 my wife and her father had an argument over the family business - its expenses, how it was vital to cut labor costs, save money, etc – which resulted in her being basically fired. My wife cut down the nights she was going out from almost every night to 3-4 nights a week and was around the house more. We (my daughter and I) were both happy to see her more but my wife was very angry with both my daughter and I very often.

In mid May my wife again cut the amount of time she was spending out and by late May or early June she was only going out a few times a week. By mid June she had stopped going out at all.

D-Day 1.
In Mid June my wife and I talked. We discussed separating, divorce, or working on our marriage. She told me that she had met a guy during this time, that he worked at the club, and that they had an emotional affair that had lasted about a year. The only physical contact between them had been a 3-4 kisses. She had absolutely no remorse, no guilt, felt it was perfectly okay to have done this, she hadn’t considered “us” to be a relationship for a long time, told me that the emotional affair was still ongoing, and that she wasn’t prepared to cut it off. I told her that I was willing to try to save our marriage but that I wouldn’t compete with this guy and that she had to chose between us. A week later she told me that she chose me and disclosed to me that the emotional affair had actually ended several weeks before and that she hadn’t wanted to tell me that. However, he was still messaging and calling her on a regular basis (most of which she ignored). I insisted on no contact if he persisted and she reluctantly agreed with the club he worked at also being placed off limits. A few days later she blocked his phone number. Since this talk my wife has only gone to work and back home, with very few exceptions and for those exceptions I have generally known where she was and what she was doing (most were work related). I began to search online for websites that could help me understand emotional affairs, how to be a better husband, etc … and this is when I discovered Surviving Infidelity. I wish I had discovered it MUCH earlier.
My wife and I engaged in hysterical bonding heavily during this reconciliation. It resulted in an unplanned pregnancy about 4 months into the reconciliation and about 8 months after he affair ended (I am positive that I was the only one she was having sex with at this time). We decided that abortion was probably the smartest option. The stress of the abortion caused us to fall back on old patterns – her being angry and me withdrawing. We ended up becoming distant from each other although not as overtly hostile as we had during the preceding two years, and the reconciliation basically sputtered to a stop.
In early January 2014 my wife told me that a friend had gone to the club, seen the guy she had the affair with, and that they had for a few minutes discussed him. I was very angry because I felt this violated our no contact agreement (which included even discussing him with anyone) and felt very betrayed because she hadn’t immediately disclosed this to me as per our agreement.
On January 12th I asked to speak to my wife about problems and issues I could see us having and to try to come up with solutions so we could get “back on track” again. Much of what I wanted to discuss were things I had gleaned from SI. The talk didn’t go well. We discussed REMORSE, she still had none. We discussed people other than this guy that she had met at the club – I felt she had gone portraying herself as a person deeply unhappy in her marriage and that she had befriended people based upon that information and that they were toxic and increased the difficulty of maintaining no contact. She very reluctantly agreed. However, the conversation had gotten so heated that we decided to break it off until tomorrow.

D-Day 2
On January 13th we talked again. We agreed for us to each go to IC and to go together to MC. After some blame shifting and justifying she agreed that privacy is okay but secrets weren’t and that it was bullsh*t for her to have waited a week to tell me about hearing about this guy. She agreed that lying was unacceptable and that lying included not just deception but also omission of facts. At this point I told her that the truth has a way of coming out, offered her a one week amnesty to tell me the truth, and that at the end of the week would be grounds for a divorce. She exploded screaming at me that I should just assume she did whatever with whoever, that I wanted to make her look like a piece of sh*t, and that she would just file for divorce. Then she admitted that her long term emotional affair had actually been physical, having sex 4-6 times. I think I was in shock. She still had no remorse. We discussed boundaries and the need to form them but agreed to put off discussing specific boundaries. We discussed removing toxic people (including those opposed to our marriage) from our lives and she claimed she knew none. She refused to commit to a reconciliation but said she would try it. The conversation ended in open hostility between us and we went to bed. In bed I started crying. We started talking and she told me that “ she was sorry for the pain she had caused, that it was wrong, but …”. I interrupted her and told her that there was no “but”. I owned at least 50% of the problems in our marriage but she owned 100% the decision to cheat, it was hers, and no “but” could justify what she had done. She minimized, told me she could see why this was important to me but that she couldn’t do this, but that she did want to reconcile.
The next morning I got a long text from her in which she told me that she had felt very confused and suicidal during the affair, that she had secretly been drinking almost a liter of hard liquor a week and remaining buzzed most of the day, and that she was sorry.
On January 16th my wife admitted to me that this guy had been in our house one time. Previously she had claimed all encounters were at his house. He had come over, cooked dinner with our daughter, my daughter had gone to bed, and then they had talked til 4am on the couch but that nothing had happened. It sounded fishy to me. That night I had a panic attack, sat up all night on the couch, and got less than an hour of sleep.
On the morning of January 17th my wife and I talked again. I wanted full access to all of her accounts, her phone, etc. full transparency. She refused and got angry that we always talk about her affair but never talk about the other issues. I explained that the other issues can’t really be dealt with until the affair is dealt with, they are two different things and that the affair would continue to linger in the background and eventually kill whatever reconciliation we had going on unless we solved it first. While at work she sent me a text saying she agreed but only after we had another talk, she had more to tell me, and wanted to understand the amnesty and how it worked. We had to postpone the meeting until the next day because when my wife came home she was so nervous she spent most of the night puking in the bathroom.

D-DAY 3
On January 18th we sat down to talk. My wife tells me that she had sex 4-6 times during her affair that began in October 2011 and ended in May 2013 but also had “other” sexual activity about 10-15 times, mostly blowjobs. Then she tells me that there were also five other guys that she was sexting with on her phone and facebook – no masturbation but lots of sexual talk and nude pictures sent. She said they had started at various time after September 2011 but that everything had ended by May 2013. She agreed to full transparency. She identified many toxic friends and agreed to remove them. I began a steady fall into deep depression and thought I had found “hell”.

D-Day 4
On January 19th my wife asked to talk to me again. Then she told me that there had also been two one night stands, with two different guys – one is September 2011 (in our car) and the other in December 2012 (at his house).

Somewhere between D-Day 1 and D-DAY 4 my wife acquired remorse. This remorse has sometimes backslidden into justifications, blame shifting, passive aggressive resistance, minimization, etc BUT generally speaking her remorse has only increased as time has gone by.

Some of her behavior is befuddling, to put it nicely. She decided in March/April of 2013 to go “clean”. She deleted her facebook profile. Then re-added most of the people she had behaved inappropriately with back. Then deleted the account again after June. Then re-added most of the same people back. She told each that she re-added that she was going clean (again) and that she was dedicated to her marriage. However, some did not take her seriously and continued trying to entice her back into sexting and exchanging pics with them. She didn’t do it BUT she also didn’t stop it. When I saw this I exploded. She then blocked them all. Then deleted her account all together.

She has also given me transparency (passwords to all accounts, her phone, etc). She is being honest and telling me things that happen that I would never find out about if she didn’t tell me. She is open about where she is, who else is there, and what she is doing. She has not gone or done anything since June 2013 that would give me any doubts or make me believe that she is still having ongoing affairs. To the best of my knowledge she has strongly followed the no contact rules for everyone and cut almost everyone from her life (directly or indirectly involved in the affairs– and since most of her friends knew of her affair they were also removed as well as everyone she ever acted even slightly inappropriate with or who isn’t a friend of our marriage) in an attempt to remove toxic people.

I had served in the go-to special operations capable unit for the Marine Corps for four years, ending about 20 years ago. I had shoved a lot of stuff “into the box”. I realized that I had probably had PTSD when I got out which gradually faded in intensity over the years but that a few years after meeting my wife, but before I married her, that I had probably slipped into a deep depression for many years without realizing it. Gradually I had come out. The stuff my wife was telling me from D-Day 23 onwards has ripped EVERYTHING out of the box and has sent me into a massive psychological and emotional crash. I became suicidal. I stopped sleeping (I take pills now for it but still routinely only sleep 4 hours a night whereas before I was a very sound sleeper). I cry a lot. I get mind movies from operations I went on. I go into intense panic attacks. For awhile I was “blacking out” and would not know how I had gotten to somewhere in the house or how long I had been there. I couldn’t remember simple things and would forget what I was looking for while I was looking for it. A nervous wreck. Some of this is getting better now but most of it is still ongoing. I have searched for mental health care with the Dept of Defense (no help available to me because I am not in America as a former military or overseas as active duty), the veterans administration (about a year or two wait period), and the Italian health system (no English help available at all via the system). I can’t afford the private care costs here. So, no help available.

In addition, there is more than some evidence that my wife has some deep psychological problems. Abuse as a child. A complete lack of boundaries. Manic and depressive stages (during some part of the affairs she was sleeping 2 hours or not at all a night for months on end whereas now she is always tired). Guilt, destructive behavior, guilt cycles. Possible Border Line Personality Disorder (she matches the characteristics in a terrifying way).

At this point my wife is the stronger of us and has been the one helping me when I crash. For this I am very grateful while also being angry that I am being forced to eat the sh*t sandwich.
Since D-Day 4 there has been much trickle truth. I am unsure if this is the “correct” term to use. Most of what I know, including the evolving stories, has come from my wife with very little “discovered” by me. When I ask her a question she answers it. She rarely volunteers information but she does divulge it. Sometimes asking her a question causes her to think deeper about something and give me an answer that changes what she told me before.

This is a very touchy subject with us.

My wife claims some stuff is blocked very deeply and is just a black hole in her memory. I tend to believe her about some things. Some things are cloudy from the sheer number of people involved, the sheer amount of cheating, the extended duration of the cheating, and the length of time ago that some of it occurred. Some things I honestly believe she is lying about either from shame, to protect me, or to protect herself (as an example: the long term affair guy came and spent the night in our house with light, touching over clothes activity, and then slept on the couch. This story has evolved into he DEFINITELY fingered her in our bed, she masturbated him, there is at least a 50/50 she also gave him a blow job, and now she has no idea where he slept because she fell asleep while he was out of OUR bed and he was awoke before he did and she doesn’t know and can’t remember if she asked him to sleep on the couch or not – due to risk of daughter walking in and seeing him in bed with her).

Some trickle truth is serious stuff. She never mentioned several sexting/nude photos people. It’s possible there are so many that she forgot them. I wouldn’t have found out about very many at all if she hadn’t told me about them so it doesn’t seem logical that she would tell me about people A, B, C, D, E, and F that I would never have discovered but then hide person G who actually did less with her than person A. But new guys periodically get discovered or are revealed.

Some is seemingly really minor, without any apparent reason to hide it/cover up/lie because it is such small potatoes compared to the other stuff she is divulging. Where in town did you go with long term affair guy when out and about with him? The list keeps growing. Where were you all intimate? The list keeps growing. How often did he come by your work? The list keeps growing. How often did you all see each other? The list keeps growing.

In either case, the details continue to spill out and it is difficult to tell what is going to come out next and when it is going to come out. Each new revelation damages our relationship, causes conflict between us, destroys accumulated trust, and sends me back into a deep crash.

Finally about 7 weeks ago I got fed up with the trickle truth. My wife had written “a list” earlier that was woefully incomplete. So I asked for another list, this one “full and complete” with everything. One that would detail
- who knew what and when.
- where she did what with who and when (not just sexual BUT the vast bulk of where, who, what, when, etc.
- EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING.
My wife agreed and worked on the list for six weeks. She presented me with a 28 page word document a few days ago.

D-DAY -5
- About 10 NEW guys that she had told that she found them “attractive”, none before 2011. It never really went anywhere (no photos, no physical contact, no sexting) but it portrays a terrifying lack of boundaries and common sense. She says she wasn’t interested in having anything with any of them. However, she also wasn’t interested in having anything with ONS1 and wound up having sex with him in our car. She wasn’t interested in some of her sexting partners yet comments like this are what led to them sexting and her sending them pictures. She is currently trying to explain what she meant by “attractive” to me which is more complicated than it sounds because it was mostly German or Italian that she was speaking. She has no idea why some people she wound up going much further with and why some she didn’t.
- Lots of inappropriate behavior (examples: a guy telling her that he was going to have an affair and her telling him “what about me”, opening massive windows into our marriage to virtually everyone she ever met, contacting almost every former boyfriend that she ever had, flirting but not to point of sexting, etc) with lots of different people.
- Another guy that she sent nude photos too and was sexting.
- More details about long term affair guy. This includes how it led up to the affair, a more accurate version of what happened at OUR house with him that night, that they had sex at her parent’s house, and more information about how she felt during various stages of the affair.
- More details about ONS 1, her thought process, what led to it, and how she messed up.
- More details about ONS 2 including shifting the date of the ONS by several months.
- More details about one of the guys she was flirting with (kissed a few times).
- More details about some of the sexting/photos guys.
- More information about some of the incredibly bad decisions and the thought process behind them that she made that led to her doing so many selfish, destructive, and crazy things.
All of this, including the construction of the last list is complicated by the fact that we are (once again) experiencing a pregnancy and are (once again) having a procedure to terminate it.

The current timeline list looks like this:
Aug 2011 – she checks out of our marriage without telling me.

sept 2011 - she begins flirting with guy 1. around mid september they end up having sex in our car for ONS 1.

sept 2011 - she begins flirting and sexting with guy 2. they continue sexting, sending pics, and trying to arrange a 3-some for roughly 2 years. they meet one time and he kisses her, other than this there is no PA.

march 2012 –photos sent to guy 3, unsure at this point if he responded at all to them or just ignored them.

spring/summer 2012 - she has guy 4 come to the family business and hang out one afternoon. they flirt some, she sends him naked pics, and they sext some. she never seems him again however.

aug 2012 - she has guy 5 come to work at the family business. they both flirt at work with each other and come in on their off times to hang out with each other. one day he kisses her at work and she yells at him, he tells her she liked it. a few weeks later he tries again and she refuses to allow it. however, they both continue flirting with each other and seeing each other on their off time. she asked him out once, not sure if it would be considered a "date" but it never happened.maybe he kissed her a few weeks later when she was giving him a ride home.

oct 2012 - she begins going to a bar and meets guy 6. this is the guy who ended up becoming her LTA, both EA and PA. their first sexual encounter was in late october and their next sexual encounter was around christmas or new years (??) afterwards it heated up rather quickly with much sexual activity between them, including in our house and her parents house. she sends him many nude photos.

oct 2012 - she sexts guy 7 in feb 2012 and they exchange pics, etc between them. she has ONS 2 with him while meeting at his house to plan a tattoo.

dec 2012 and april 2013 - she sexts guy 8 and sends him nude photos.

feb/march 2013 - she sexts guy 9. they send each other nude photos. he is married and has children. after D-Day 3 i outed him to his wife who has since discovered that he has cheated on her multiple times with multiple women.

march/april 2013 - she sexts guy 10 and sends him nude pics. they make arrangements to meet, unspoken is that it is probably sex, but changes to his job force him to change his travel plans and he cant come to this city. he tries to meet her in paris. she considers it but backs out.
may 2013 - she ends her LTA and tells all of the men that shes still in contact with that shes done with it all.

????/2011 or ????/ 2012 – nude photos sent to guy 11. Unsure of extent of it at this point.

At this point I also need to put in lots of other people. Guys she told that were attractive. When she opened an account on badoo she had a guy who wanted to meet her, they met, and she was “shocked” that he wanted to have sex with her but she wasn’t interested at all so “nothing happened”. Some guys that she was flirting with. They all need to be added to the timeline as well. Right now I just can’t do it. When I see that timeline in all its notoriety I feel like throwing up. I just can’t summon the mental energy to do it right now.
------
For months I have been stressing to her how important it is that I know all the truth. That each new revelation feels like getting hit by a nuke, that it destroys all of the healing that I have done and puts me right back into hell, and that I can’t begin to feel safe until I have all the truth. That each new fact or change destroys any trust I have built back up in her and puts our relationship into below zero again. That the future success or failure of “us” hinges, in a large part on the fullness and completeness of this list. I explained over and over what was meant by “full”, “complete”, and “everything” while she nodded her head and told me that I had already said this.

Instead the list I got back is nothing like what I asked for. It was NOT full and complete. Not by a long shot. There are people I already know about that are not on it. There are details that I know that aren’t on that list. The list doesn’t provide lots of information that I stated (repeatedly) that I wanted on the list. It doesn’t answer most of the questions that I want answer (and not even the hard ones like “why” but the simple ones like “when you and LTA guy went out around town, where did you go”? I want specifics, facts, details – about everything. Yes, I understand she might not remember it. But I refuse to believe that she can’t remember that he met her at a tram stop near her work very often – why isn’t that on the list?
I have handed the list back and demanded that she do it again, full of examples of the additional information that I would like to have on it. I have told her that this is her LAST chance to do a proper list.

I don’t feel that my wife is “deliberately lying” to me. I just feel that she doesn’t seem to take it all seriously enough. That’s not acceptable to me anymore. She, once again, knows that she needs a full and complete list. She, once again, knows what is expected. She, once again, has started to work on it.

One of the most terrifying things I have come to realize is what I am expecting in the “new full and complete list”. I fully expect this list to take a long time to complete. I fully expect this list to be another half ass version in which she once again fails to put effort, attention to detail, time, and energy into it. In other words I expect more of the same. I have been through a false R when she lied to me about the extent of her inappropriate behavior ten months ago. I have endured numerous D-Days. I have been subjected to countless evolving stories, trickle truth, outright lies, deception by misdirection, omissions, minimizing, vagueness, and everything else that can hide the truth (whether intentional or not). I am now starting to accept that she is either unable or unwilling to provide the basic information that makes me feel even moderately safe. This realization hurts more than the cheating.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, March 27th (Thursday)

William,
I am generally in favor of 100% transparency, but I get the overall sense that your wife was in total and utter crisis, and she may not even have a handle on everything she did. I would look at the TT as less of a test, than a long process of her getting to the bottom of her really terrible behavior. It is more like a pattern of behavior and thinking, than discrete events that you need to worry about, I think. You may never know everything, as it looks like she fell into some kind of sex addiction, or sexual acting out when perhaps addicted to something else. Is that an issue here? It just doesn't seem like someone goes this far off the rails without something else going on.

But, I'd telescope out a little. Yes, you eventually may want/need to know every little thing, but I question how relevant those details are right now. I remember asking myself at one point, does it matter, really, if H got 2 blow jobs or 8? In your case, it may be, is the distinction between 8 and 10 people she sexted relevant? She was sexting lots of dudes, she was out of control, and she needs help. It is all the same lie, although it doesn't feel that way.

But, can she get healthy enough to be in a relationship with you? Does she want to? That is where I'd start and focus.


[This message edited by bionicgal at 11:06 AM, March 27th (Thursday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2065 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, March 27th (Thursday)

It may not be so much that she is unwilling as that she is overwhelmed. KWIM? I can imagine that having already failed you in these betrayals, now she may feel she is failing you in divulging them, and her panic could keep her from being able to keep everything straight.

I know everyone has their own needs for healing but I fear the insistence on this complete and total list may be doing more harm than good right now.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, March 27th (Thursday)

can she get healthy enough to be in a relationship with you? Does she want to?

can she? i dont know . i am really afraid that at some point she suddenly starts sleeping less again (i have no idea how she operated on no sleep for so long), starts lying to me again, and i dont even notice. and then ... i learn later that shes had sex with a multitude of guys again. i dont know if she can get there. she was "normal" and then BOOM - no freaking idea what happened to her.

does she want too? yes. yes she does. that i do believe with all my heart. its why i am still here trying my ass off to help make this work.

but its not even "hard things" she isnt telling me. i ask over and over "where were you all intimate"? only at his house. then our house. then her parents house. how can you forget where you did something like that? forget did you have sex or give him a bj - even those details are impossible to get in one setting.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, March 27th (Thursday)

william. I'm very happy to see you back. Very worried about you.

Anyway, very gently here...I don't know how many more details you can take my friend. You have way more to deal with here than anyone should ever have in a lifetime. I know you still want more details, and you are still getting more...but take a step back and look at all of this for a second if you can. There is some serious psychological issues going on with you wife. Especially if there are black holes. I can guarantee you she doesn't want to face it or look at it all. It's overwhelming even for us that are not in your situation. You may never know all the details because she may never know all the details. You sense this to a certain extent. To keep pushing her for more in some ways is like pain shopping for yourself as well. I get why you want them. I do. But at some point there has to be enough here to address the situation and move forward with each other. Do you feel that you have enough of the bigger points? As in the who and how much? IMHO, the other finite details are not going to make a difference in your healing or healing process.

And for the same reason that she doesn't "remember" all the details is partly why you are afraid of the future. Can this all happen again? If she doesn't fix what is broken inside of her sure. At this point that's what I would concentrate on. The healing so that this does not happen ever again. Not so much the list anymore. If she wants to continue to give you more as a showing of remorse, that's good. But you both should start to look to each other more now. She needs to continue to show remorse and help you and you need to be there for her with your latest crisis. Focus on those. I know getting IC has been extremely difficult for both of you. This has to happen for any sort of long term healing for her and you.


One more recommendation. Your wife seems like she is learning to establish boundaries for herself and I have seen her previous post over in the Wayward forum. I know she doesn't accept PMs from men. This is good. I have seen someone else over there add "Please no PMs from men. Thank you." to their tag line. Maybe she wants to do the same. I encourage her to keep posting here too in an effort to get her some support.

I applaud your efforts that in spite of it all that you continue to work at this for your family. Truly I do. I continue to root for you and your family. Work on the future together my friend. You both need to start doing that so that the healing process can begin to more forward. There may be more details but that is not going to help you start your healing process together.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, March 27th (Thursday)

Hi William,

...how can you forget where you did something like that? forget did you have sex or give him a bj -

I remember asking essentially the same question of my WW, but here is what I figured out. The meetings and sex with her OM were not exceptional events; it was her life at the time. She could remember that she met him to go to hotels or went to his house with him and that they had sex at those meetings. What she did not remember so well was what days she went where, what type of sex they had. The more exceptional the meeting, like on a work trip or after an event she would remember more details about.

In retrospect, this makes sense. I know that FWW and I have had sex in the last two years, and I could probably give a pretty fair estimate of the number of times and variety of acts. What I cannot do is tell you which days in the last year, or which specific acts on which days. So while I know we had sex in December, I cannot tell which days (other than NYE) and I do not remember for any specific sex coupling if I "finished" during penetration, oral, or manual stimulation. In effect, I forget if we had sex or she gave me a bj for any specific time.

Where I have arrived at is; that was then and this is now. I accept that she had sexual relationships with OM. I know what sex with her is like, I know that she was more permissive with her OM, so I have a pretty good idea what the sex was like. I do not know how many times and which acts for specific times. What is important to me know is what she does now and how she treats me.

It is easier for me to accept this now and post about it 4.5 years past dday. At 6 months post dday I was raging at her, and finally with pressure from me and support from the MC she gave me a pretty crappy timeline. While her timeline revealed much more to me than I had suspected, it was also full of gaps and slim on specifics. Still, what I needed to know was that for over 5 years and 4 different OM my W had sexual and emotional relationships. While I do not know what was done when, I do know what was done. I also believe that my W did things with at least a couple of the OM that she simply cannot let herself remember or share. It would be too shameful.

ETA: for a long time I thought that if I asked enough questions and got enough answers I would understand. I was wrong.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:57 PM, March 27th (Thursday)]


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4133 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:25 AM, March 28th (Friday)

i think my last paragraph wasnt clear -> "ut its not even "hard things" she isnt telling me. i ask over and over "where were you all intimate"? only at his house. then our house. then her parents house. how can you forget where you did something like that? forget did you have sex or give him a bj - even those details are impossible to get in one setting."

what i meant was that i am NOT even trying to find out the finer details. I am still trying, 10 months after D-Day 1, to find out the "big picture".

"forget did you have sex or give him a bj" = i am not even asking for stuff like that at this point (except for when he was in OUR house. that really bothers me and for that one episode i WOULD like as much detail as possible).

i am still stuck on trying to figure out what should be really simple things.

- WHO she did stuff with. new guys continue to creep out of the woodwork periodically. since D-Day 4 there have been at least 2 new sexting guys revealed and maybe a dozen others she had some form of much lesser inappropriate behavior with.

- WHEN did it all start? in SEPT 2011 with the ONS1 or was there inappropriate stuff going on our entire relationship that i didnt know about (so far it appears it all started in SEPT 2011). this is really vital to me because either the problem has existed from day 1 and i never knew and it just escalated drastically OR in fall 2011 she had some sort of crash - the "solution" would be much different depending on which it is.

- WHERE did she see these guys? a basic idea of how extensive it was - even something as simple as "i saw guy 5 at place X about 10 times maybe and at place Y maybe 4 times, and place Z maybe 20 times" would be enough.
an example of why this is important to me is ... we went as a family recently to a beautiful and famous area that i have also deliberately chosen (out of different possible routes) to go through on my way to work, i find out recently after much asking WHERE they went together that her and LTA guy spent much time at and around this area together. i felt very betrayed when i found out that she had brought our family there, i had a panic attack the next time i went through the area, and i will now avoid it forever like the plague. in my mind it is now HIS area.

so i mean that i am not even asking for details like "on Feb 18th i went to his house at 4am and gave him a bj and then went to work afterwards". i dont expect her to remember stuff like that, its not realistic.
i do want details like "we often went to area Y on walks" or a full list of guys i sent nude photos to is A, B, C, D, and E.

i never wanted the list to be some minute blow by blow account of her life for two years. i just wanted to get a grasp on what exactly i was dealing with.

however, i talked to my wife last night. i had actually been thinking along the lines of what you all suggested. i told her that

- i have seen that she is making a huge effort to be open, transparent, honest, etc. i do believe that she is trying to tell me everything and isnt deliberately lying or concealing things.

- that having to come up with a full and complete list with failure being a deal breaker for our marriage is putting massive stress on her and is pushing her close to some kind of breakdown.

- that each time she comes up with a list that isnt full it causes me to stress out, i get angry, i push her to be more complete, and that then increases the stress on her.

so i offered an alternative. why dont we work on the list together. not everyday. not even regularly. but when she feels up to it, periodically, we can sit and pick a person and put in some details about them. if she forgets something and we have to add it later, its okay. it doesnt need to be done by X date. it can get done when it gets done and if some things are never known ... well, thats okay too.

the relief she radiated was palpable.

to me its more important thing that she continues putting in the effort and trying than it is that suddenly i get to know everything.

im willing to walk in a minefield for her and to periodically get hit with stuff. shes worth it.

i guess what you all are saying is something i have been thinking. thanks for helping me to trust my heart!

[This message edited by william at 2:37 AM, March 28th (Friday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:16 AM, March 28th (Friday)

ah. I forgot you had mentioned those reasons in your other thread. Still a good idea to keep moving forward closer together. And very happy to see you doing that. I can certainly appreciate what you are saying by you are metaphorically walking around in a minefield.

Which gave me a thought... not that I'm suggesting you do this because I would never tell someone what to do with their life, but have you guys ever thought of moving back state side to get away from the "minefield" and also to possibly get access to IC? Again...not suggesting you do so, was just curious if the two of you had ever thought about it.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, March 28th (Friday)

the relief she radiated was palpable.

I am sure you are feeling relieved too. I do think the information you want is eminently reasonable and understandable, but hopefully lessening the pressure to get there by x point will be helpful to you both.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 10:57 AM, March 28th (Friday)

- WHEN did it all start?

^^^This is a CRUCIAL question to have an answer to.
I would not spend one.single.second on any other discussion until I had an answer to this.
The fact that she has not answered this question indicates to me that there is inappropriate behavior of some sort that occurred previous to 9/11.
This is information that you absolutely NEED to have before proceeding.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8087 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
oldtimer97
Member
Member # 2365
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, March 28th (Friday)

There's an answer to your questions in one word: bipolar.

The number one sign she is going into mania is the lack of sleep that seems inhumanly possible. The second sign, one which is acknowledged on boards, support groups, etc., is the hypersexuality. As my husband described it to me (also bipolar) he is a dog in heat. It would be nice if they'd go hypersexual with us during their manias (and may have during the early stages) but bipolars become diametrically opposed to their loved ones when they've cycled. They also forget a lot of what they did while they are manic.

It doesn't sound like your wife is in treatment for this? She needs to be asap. The longer bipolar goes untreated, the worse it gets...this is what has happened with my husband and myself. His manias were spaced apart by years, so after he came down we were off searching for the cause, hoping it would never happen again. You've lived it, I've lived it and I wouldn't wish this mental disease on my worst enemy (maybe a couple of OW tho, hehe) Because of their behaviors, bipolars have a high failure rate in marriage. Untreated, they also have a high unemployment rate, because they either quit their jobs in a manic whim or their behaviors cause them to be fired.

I would encourage you & your wife to learn as much as you can about this disease and like was suggested earlier, move stateside if you can't find adequate care. She will need to be in treatment & medically compliant for the rest of her life if she wishes to experience a higher quality of life then she has in the past & you will not feel safe until she does. I should also mention my daughter is bipolar & she turned her life around once she became diagnosed and started treatment. I wish the best for your wife and you!


“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”

― Maya Angelou


Posts: 3264 | Registered: Oct 2003 | From: Sunny Arizona
MediumRare
Member
Member # 35128
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, March 28th (Friday)

Hi william,
You've been through a lot and I'm very proud of you for holding up so well! You really deserve a pat on the back for being there for your daughter and not unraveling from this terrible experience with your wife.

Your WS sounds like she has a lot in common with my WS in her past, which is possible borderline personality disorder.

You WS really needs to be in full-time IC and likely DBT sessions for quite some time before you can get any kind of sane, reasonable or consistent result from her.

I'd strongly suggest the 180 as well as keep constant pressure for IC/DBT for her, as well as possibly see if you can get her properly diagnosed as I bet she is a BPD.

Good luck to you, brother!


BS (ME): 44
WS(HER): 42
9 years
OM#1- 20-something loser, stole bunch of my things after she had sex with him in our bed (no condoms, STDs)
OM#2- 24 year old, unemployed loser, lives with mom & dad
DDay 1/2012
NC 3/20/2012
SGASDay 4/1/2012

Posts: 721 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: California
oldtimer97
Member
Member # 2365
Default  Posted: 5:39 PM, March 28th (Friday)

I will also agree with Medium Rare, bipolar & BPD have a lot of overlapping symptoms. At best??, your wife has bipolar, as observed by the horrendous lack of sleep patterns. As an example, in Dec, my husband took some expired testosterone which sent his manic into hyperdrive (steroids are the last thing bipolars should use in any form, including medical creams to reduce swelling). One weekend he was up for 48hrs straight, the next up for 64hrs w/only 3 hrs sleep. He's starting to taper down now, yet desperately trying to hang on to his mania & self-medicating with caffeine pills and energy drinks, so he's getting by with 4hrs of daily sleep.

Anyways, suffice it to say your wife needs an accurate diagnosis by a psychiatrist & concurrent therapy by a counselor/psychologist. Make sure your voice is included in the assessment, because there are going to be many things you've noticed and can answer that your wife won't be able to. Best of luck!


“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”

― Maya Angelou


Posts: 3264 | Registered: Oct 2003 | From: Sunny Arizona
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, March 29th (Saturday)

im not interested in moving back to america. my son lives in germany with his mother who is NOT interested in leaving germany. he doesnt reach his "majority" for several years so i am pretty restricted to location.

my wife claims nothing happened before 2011. i believe her as far as sex, sexting, etc. she also says she never acted inappropriately, that i am not sure if believe.
i know about a guy that she met before me that she sent photos too right after she met me, she also tried secretly to get in touch with him back in 2010 despite a NC agreement she had made with me, and secretly tried again in 2011. i know she met 2 ex bf during that time for a quick (20 minutes to an hour or so) during the time we have been together to talk with them when they came through the city we lived in, which i was okay with at the time.
so i am interested in knowing if she had crappy boundaries during the WHOLE time we were together. had she acted inappropriately with other people i dont know about - was she remaining "friends" with people who were flirting with her but she wasnt interested in and nothing happened with or even flirting with them?
what other stuff did she deceive me with during our relationship?
i know when i met her i was astounded at how little she slept. i tried to keep up with her at first and couldnt, i even fell asleep once while being intimate with her after going a week or two on a few hours of sleep a night. then her sleep period got more normal. i remember at least one other time period where she got to sleeping much less. were there others? was this a regular pattern throughout her life? did she do anything crazy during these times?
had she ever gone through a mass of sexual partners in a short period of time, most of whom she felt little or no attraction for?
so most of what i am interested in regarding the past is patterns. did a pattern exist that i never noticed? is this the first time that she ever went beserk and did something like this or has it been reoccuring throughout her life and i just didnt know? to me that is a VERY critical question.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, March 30th (Sunday)

Determining if it is a pattern is definitely crucial. It's interesting that she has had past periods of sleeplessness.I hope she can find a psychiatrist to do an evaluation and figure out if it's a mental health issue that she can be treated for. Knowledge is power and I know you'll keep going until you get the information you need.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:00 AM, March 31st (Monday)

its hard to find out.

the kinds of questions that need answers are very introspective, they require alot of self analysis, the only one who can answer them is her, and apparently she cant be sure why she made certain decisions in the long distant past. sigh...

its weird because almost every major decision i have made in my life i can even recount the thought process that led me to make that decision but evidently she cant.

another important bit of information tabled for her IC to take up at some point in the future.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, March 31st (Monday)

today is the day of the abortion. due to weird hospital rules i wasnt allowed to go. i pick up my wife in a few hours. we have talked on the phone and she seems to be doing okay.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, March 31st (Monday)

Know that you and your wife are not alone today. I will be thinking of you, your wife, and your daughter.

Wishing your wife a speedy recovery and you both strength and courage to heal together.

I'm still here pulling for your family william.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 3:56 AM, April 1st (Tuesday)

thanks. she appears to be doing about as well as can be expected.
we havent discussed her multiple A in a few days so nothing new.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 5:16 AM, April 1st (Tuesday)

Thanks for the update. Thinking of you both.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, April 4th (Friday)

How are you doing today william?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:16 AM, April 5th (Saturday)

i mentioned to my wife yesterday that its always me that brings up the affairs she had, that its not fair, and that leaving them undiscussed doesnt make them go away but rather leaves them to fester. she agreed.
now the ball is in her court...


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:19 AM, April 7th (Monday)

the doctors found a clot of blood and tissue they "missed". its caused my wife immense pain and she has had to go back today to redo the entire procedure :( .


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:00 AM, April 7th (Monday)

Very sorry to hear that william. You guys can't catch a break. My thoughts continue to be with you and your family.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, April 7th (Monday)

Thinking of your wife today and hoping the procedure goes well william.

I hope she will be able to start bringing up the subject with you constructively, too.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, April 7th (Monday)

we have had a bad time lately.

the day before yesterday
we drove by two of my wife's "guy friends" (the bakery kisser and a friend who sent her a masturbation video). we drove by the liquor store my wife used to buy her drinks at to get drunk on a daily basis. i spend the day thinking about this and realize that the day before she had grabbed a notebook that one of her enabling friends had made and then given her for a present - the same crap that i asked her to toss LONG ago yet hasnt been tossed. i see the art on the wall given to her by one of her "guy friends" (one who asked her to stay later at a club so they could "make out").

so i spend the day getting more and more triggered.

then yesterday i take my daughter to the hospital for an impacted tooth while my wife stays home (due to stomach pains). we go by the road the same two guys live on (but not by their houses). we go by the family business. we have to go through the station that my wife and her LTA guy used to walk too when they went on walks after her work.

i explode at my wife later.
- yell at her that the crap related to her affair guys and people associated with them still hasnt been thrown away, its still all there.
- that when her phone crashed it added many of her old contacts back (the same ones we deleted because they were involved in affairs with her, etc)and she has 2 hours transit to work and back a day where she COULD have (again) deleted them but instead watched youtube videos the whole way..

that she talks but doesnt actually DOES ANYTHING about what we talk about - keep her phone clean, throw away anything affair related, etc.

the argument got very bad. i said alot of mean stuff. true, but mean and not said gently.

then this morning she goes to the hospital. im not allowed to go so i sit and look through her emails.
WHY?
because im in a black hole of not getting information and i want to know things. i initiate 99.999% of her affair conversations and thats being generous giving her the .0001%. anything i find out has to be drug out against deep resistance in which she gives few if any details, minimizes, or says she cant remember. i hear IDK and ICR to everything. either she cant or wont tell me many things.
so i look through her emails. i find the last sexting partners name (the one she didnt tell until her "full and complete list" - the one that was neither full nor complete). the background on him was before she met me she knew him from a band they were both fans of and after awhile they sexted some together, long ago. they met in 2004 (again before she and i met) and had some form of sexual activity (again vague answers to direct questions). i find that in may 2011 she was trying to get him a job working with her.

keep in mind some specific questions i asked her
---> did you do ANYTHING inappropriate with ANYONE prior to aug/sept 2011? the answer ALWAYS a no.


i find some emails to herself. one of the very odd disjointed rambling ones that she wrote herself that seem like shes high or something.

1: she states that she missed her period for two weeks and may be pregnant with LTA guy. from the gist of the email it seems that they discussed what to do but then she got her next period and life went on. this makes me wonder about her claim of 100% always wearing protection. it also sickens me.

2: its from right around the time LTA guy came into our house.
her story has evolved from

A: she felt uncomfortable but forced it onwards, light touching over clothes and some kissing, that she took a pic of them in our bed as a "trophy", saw it in the light from the hall, felt even more uncomfortable, and asked him to the couch

to

B: she felt uncomfortable but forced it onwards, he fingered her in our bed, she maybe (50/50) gave him oral sex, she took the pic, saw it in the light, felt even more uncomfortable, smoked a cig, went to bed, and has no idea where he slept.

she has claimed multiple times that this was "the moment" she realized that what she was doing was terrible and it "just" took her months to get out of doing it. but that she knew.

in this email she says
- that they lay for hours in our bed. that she was worried about waking the daughter but didnt care because he was her obsession.
- that she enjoyed eating dinner with him and our daughter
- that if she had spent the last 10 years with him her life would have been perfect
- that her life is better with him in it.

obviously that conflicts with her previous statements substantially.


ive just gotten my wife at the hospital with my daughter. but i am thinking about the contradictions, the stuff she didnt tell me .... and i am SERIOUSLY considering whether THIS is the deal breaker. right now i feel like it.

to top it all off my wife had a very long procedure. she asked "why" afterwards and they said there is a growth in her womb. they say it "could" be cancerous. they dont know and wont know for 3 weeks until the sample they took comes back from the lab. this is what my wifes mother died from.

[This message edited by william at 11:25 AM, April 7th (Monday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, April 7th (Monday)

F@#$!!! That is awful. The TT is killing what's left of your marriage and more so what's left of you. Have you started to think what a D looks like? Have you looked at the D process in Italy and what is needed/consists of? Is it like here where you can start the process and pull out of it later if you want to? Most importantly, what does a D process look like for your DD? Would you be able to retain custody?

Sorry for all the questions william but these are the questions I would be asking myself at this point. I don't think anyone would fault you for it. I don't think anyone would fault you for continuing to try and work for your family either, but at some point you have to start looking out for yourself so that you can heal and the TT is only making it worse. At this point I think you have endured more that your share of TT which is way more than anyone should have to endure. With that I would start to explore all options. Then let her know about it when she is healthier.

Now it also sounds like there may be a new health issue for her as well?

Keep venting here william. We are here for you brother.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, April 7th (Monday)

William, my brother. She doesn't get it. It's time for you to strategically withdraw and preserve your remaining assets. 180 is your friend. N/C your shelter. Fix YOU first.

She is doing nothing to preserve, maintain or defend the M. The obvious fact is, she's actively promoting its demise. The tattoo's are just almost impossible to overcome. She's not willing to even get rid of the easy reminders?

Save yourself.

Strength


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2995 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
TOMTEFAR
Member
Member # 39257
Default  Posted: 1:43 AM, April 8th (Tuesday)

I'm sorry William.

But, as I have said from the start of your threads, Your W is to F*cked up in her head. She will not get it. I see one possible way for you but it is a slim chance. File for D. If the laws are somewhat similar in Italy as elsewhere it will take some time for the D to run through and that will give you some time to see if she gets it under the preassure of D. As of ow your W have had no real consequences that she cares about and she feels that you will stay either way so she keeps doing her thing. You need to shake her out of her Comfort zone and make her doubt you staying.

However I don't Think that your W will ever get it I'm sorry to say.

She just isn't remorsefull of what she has done. If she was she would seek help. She would not let her thread on this board die. She is basically doing nothing to help you, nothing to understand you or herself. Nothing to change herself.


Posts: 107 | Registered: May 2013
happyman64
Member
Member # 33212
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, April 8th (Tuesday)

William

While I agree you should file a part of me remains compassionate for both of you and your kid.

Wait the the three weeks for your wifes results.

You have plenty of time to make a decision....

HM


Posts: 902 | Registered: Aug 2011 | From: New York
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, April 8th (Tuesday)

i am going to wait. watch. observe.

i have the time to decide.

but up until now i have been pretty unwavering in my decision to reconcile with her. this has left me much more receptive to the alternative.

im pretty livid about the condoms. to me this is VERY BIG. from "we always wore them" to "i asked him to but i dont know if he ever actually put one on" is a HUGE jump that endangers MY life. if she wanted to gamble her life that is one thing. to gamble mine - thats something else. to lie about it (and saying "one was always used" to "i asked him to but have no idea if he actually put one one, i cant remember him ever stopping to put one on, dont remember him ever "tasting" of condom when i gave him a blowjob after having sex for awhile" IS A LIE) to me for this long afterwards shows a massive disregard for my health, my life, my well being, and is completely F'ed up. the good news is that she is now planning the full blood tests to check on everything. the bad news is - whatever she has (if anything) i probably now have too that it is this long afterwards destroys the trust i had rebuilt in her - shatters it actually.

trickle truth really sucks. and the worst is she claims it is NOT trickle truth.

however, today she did do something while i was gone.

she threw away her clothes, shoes, jackets, etc related to the A - the ones she wore to the club, to see him, in pictures she sent, etc. a huge bag of clothes. actually starting to clean out the crap that i asked her 10 months ago to do (when i thought it was only an EA and only with one guy) so, again 6 months ago, in january, and a few weeks ago. to finally see her start is SOMETHING.

she started going through picture albums and tossing pics of ex-bf's, guys she had sexted with, had her affairs with, etc.

she is talking about cleaning the car this weekend together and selling it next week (the same car she had sex in the back seat in).

so i finally started to see SOMETHING active from her.
dont get me wrong - no contact with these people, not going out at night, etc IS important. but it is PASSIVE. you just dont call. you dont email. you dont go out.

getting rid of stuff requires an active effort. the passive effort is there, it has been from day one. the active effort is something new.

now i just need to watch and see if it continues until its all gone. if its temporary.

because she told me on the phone today "why didnt you bring up the affair for the 3 hours we were at home together?". i told her "i shouldnt have to, i bring it up 99% of the time. i didnt do anything wrong. you did. why should i have to initiate trying to fix it EVERY time. you messed it up, you should be trying to clean up your mess. its not mine. i just got dumped in the shit along with you. it should be you trying desperately to get the full story out, initiating convos, trying to repair what you broke. ive tried for 10 months to find out the story, the truth. its all had to be dragged out of you like a tooth. i went about it all wrong. i should have let YOU do the work. you made the mess, not me. YOU try to clean it up."

when i got home she held to me for a long hug and cried.

despite feeling i am in the right about what ive been saying for the last few days i also feel like an A-hole for having said it NOW ... while she is going through this procedure, awaiting test results, etc.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, April 8th (Tuesday)

despite feeling i am in the right about what ive been saying for the last few days i also feel like an A-hole for having said it NOW ... while she is going through this procedure, awaiting test results, etc.

You're not an A-Hole william. You are still hanging in there, not bailing. It's been a very long, taxing arduous journey for you. No matter what happens down the road you know you gave this more than everything you had. We're still here for you.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 2:48 PM, April 8th (Tuesday)]


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, April 9th (Wednesday)

How are you doing today william?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, April 10th (Thursday)

my wife brought up scheduling sessions when we plan to talk. thats a plus.

im not sure when, shes in alot of pain.

we do plan on removing the tats. tis been hard to do with so much going on.


im just trying to preserve my sanity right now.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, April 11th (Friday)

Every little bit is progress. Keep moving forward my friend.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 3:36 PM, April 11th (Friday)

I've loved the last two updates. Actions not words. Two really salient points:

so i finally started to see SOMETHING active from her.

we do plan on removing the tats.

Things are *starting* to look better. I'm glad for you.

Strength


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2995 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:44 AM, April 12th (Saturday)

yeah, having her show some active motions is HUGE.

passive stuff she has been doing from day one. not going out. maintaining no contact. etc. i told her passive doesnt mean its not important, we need to breathe to live but its done passively.

but active is also important. active is making the effort to actually get up, throw away the old affair clothes, to toss away crap that is related to the affairs, to initiate a conversation.

the two things have to both be done.

but yesterday i came home from work. normally she wears a pully or long sleeve shirt to hide the tattoo on the arm and long socks to hide the ankle ones. she was wearing a short sleeve shirt but had covered them in a concealing makeup. the fact that she had THOUGHT about how i felt when i saw them, figured out a way to hide them, and then did it ... it was very touching.

today she had to go help her dad for a few horus. my daughter and i are home. she couldnt get back for lunch so she asked if i could go there to eat with them BUT also said that if the house made me too uncomfortable (she had 2 PA sessions there with LTA guy)that she could understand if i didnt want to go. but that she was sad she couldnt get back for lunch. normally i avoid that house like the plague. i detest her dad too for how he treated my wife when she was a child, hes a cockroach. but because of the way that she expressed she understood, could accept it, but then told me how she felt - it was like a path of communication was opening up for her. she could tell me clearly things showing she understands, telling me how she feels, and then actually asking me without passive aggressive hostility or without drama or a guilt trip. it was very beautiful. so im going to lunch there even though i dont want too ... because making her happy is worth the amount of discomfort id get from being there.

little things - small gestures, showing that she does "get it", showing that she cares, etc - those are huge.
in the last few days ive seen a huge step up for her. im making sure to let her know that i see it. that i know what she is doing. that i appreciate. that it means alot.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
Sadmumma
Member
Member # 42192
Default  Posted: 5:43 AM, April 12th (Saturday)

William, I ve been readin your story for a bit too, but haven't had anything to say. Until now.

William you're not an A hole for choosing until now to be brutal on your wife. While your timing may not be the greatest it really isn't your concern. You have been a pillar if strength to your wayward in spite of the continuing torment she is inflicting through her inaction. For that, I commend you.

I hope that this is the start of true healing for you.


On any given day you have the power to say "my story is not going to end like this"
Me 41 BS
Him 41 WH
6 kids...7 weeks, 5,7,9,11&13
D day jan 29th 2014

Posts: 536 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Land down under
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, April 12th (Saturday)

william. this is great news in more ways than one. Not only is she showing you active motions, but you are showing her the same. I'm sure with this latest round of what you went through and you showing her that you were sticking by her side maybe helped foster some of this too? And now you reciprocating for a lunch date in s triggery place. Can't help but believe that maybe you are both starting to turn towards each other. This is good on both fronts.

Keep watching my friend. I'm pulling for your family more than ever.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:05 AM, April 15th (Tuesday)

How are you feeling william? The Mrs's feeling any better? Still positive signs on the home front?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 3:30 AM, April 17th (Thursday)

we have had some positive signs.

my wife thinks we should talk about the affairs every other night until we finish the discussions. having a schedule made BY HER was a huge plus!

then she wasnt feeling very well (shes had some health problems since her procedure - shortness of breath, dizzy spells, headaches, etc) and i offered her the opportunity to move the night back and start the next night. she refused and said she had delayed and procrastinated enough and that it was time to get everything out that i needed to help me heal. her saying this was another HUGE plus. it made me feel that she "got it". it gave me massive amounts of hope"

we started at the "beginning". we agreed that we work chronological but that when we hit a person that she behaved inappropriately with that we stay on that person until we "finish" them. so in a sense it goes chronological but also breaks into detailing specific people as we go.

some of the stuff that we discussed is/was "small potatos" compared to the crap cake that came later but to me it was important to start from the beginning, to find out everything, and then to continue onwards to the end.

-----------------
PERSON I

my wife and i had met in 2005. within a few weeks of meeting she went to see a guy friend (who she had a physical relationship with prior to meeting me) and stayed overnight in a hotel room with him (says nothing happened). it wasnt a huge deal because we had just met and certainly werent "exclusive" at this point. but months later she sent him an email that could be interpreted several ways and semi nude photos. at that point my wife and i were about to move in together. i got very angry and found this completely inappropriate, my wife agreed to NC at the time.

she violated NC
11/07 - when she sent an email to him asking for tickets to a show. at the time she lied to me, gaslit me, tried to justify what she did, and then admitted it was wrong. the guy reacted to the email with a "holy sh1t, you are married! we shouldnt be talking anymore. you need to concentrate on your husband and child."
12/09 - saw a friend of the guys and talked to him about the guy
05/11 - on a trip to America she saw a different friend and asked about the guy again
02/13 - saw the first friend again, asked about the guy again, and then went and shared a few beers with the friend (incidently going to the club where her then current LTA guy worked).
--------------------
PERSON II

in early 2011 my wife promoted a few bands. she flew to germany to watch a show of a band she was interested in, talked to a guy in the band a few hours, got some demos, and came back home.

03/11 - she went back to germany, went to their studio, got some more demos, and came back home. they began to talk on phone. she told him personal details and opened a massive window into our relationship. at one point she told him "ich mag dich" which in german (usually a very precise language except in the cases of relationships when it becomes very vague) means anything in between "i like you" to "i like you and want more with you" to "i want you". he took it as more than a "i like you" and told her she was "cute". it didnt go any further than this.
------------------------
PERSON III

1999-2000 - my wife had a friend who was in a band, obviously long before we met. he had a gf but my wife had a crush on him that everyone noticed - it was sort of a running joke between everyone in the band, him, and my wife. but nothing occured.
2004/2005 - my wife lost contact with him when she moved out of italy.
2009 - my wife saw him on a trip to italy and they exchanged phone numbers. they periodically talked on the phone and sent each other texts. sometimes there was joking about sex but never specifically about "them" having sex and never explicit stuff, just general (and inappropriate) banter. i knew about him but obviously she lied via ommission by not telling me she was joking about sex and other inappropriate conversations.
2010 - the banter with the guy increased but still never got explicit. he is also a psychologist and my wife got him to come by the family business to see our daughter (who was having a tough time in school). she asked me beforehand but again misrespresented her relationship with this guy (portraying it as completely innocent).
2011-2013 - my wife sees him at a few shows, goes to some rehearsals, goes to a bar for some beers with him, they talk more about personal lives and she continues providing him with personal details and a window into our marriage. a few times during these talks he tells her that he is having an affair (affairs??) and cheating on his wife. my wife replies "what about having one with me". she says it was a "joke". obviously i fail to see the humor.

my wife doesnt think she sent him nude pictures but she cant be positive. we have not finished discussing him.

--------------------------

we spent about 2-3 hours discussing this.

she was much better about being forthcoming with information, admitting and stating that what she did was wrong, that she can see why it was so inappropriate and wrong to do this stuff NOW, and that it wont ever happen again. i was better about not losing my temper when i hear this stuff. i think i got "cold" in how i was talking with her but i didnt wind up screaming. so thats a plus. evidently we are learning how to communicate better with each other.

tonight we "get" to continue the conversation.

---------

then ... yesterday i was on the way home from work and on the tram. a guy got on the tram who had an inappropriate relationship with my wife.

they used to go together to clubs at night along with some of her girlfriends. at one point he had showed her a video of ... all things ... his maid masturbating him with her feet. many times he tried to flirt with her but she wasnt interested in him. when she first became interested in LTA guy he got very mad and tried to prevent the relationship from forming while telling her that he wanted to be "more than friends". they argued about this guy and other things, the arguements eventually tanked their "friendship", and contact was severed by my wife.
my wife saw him in late 2012 on the street and when he walked up to her she turned her back on him so he walked away without talking to her.

i knew this guy. he even came over to our house once. he was always uncomfortable around me and i never knew why. he also used to have this smug and arrogant attitude towards me and i never knew why.

so yesterday i see him on the tram.

he walks over to me and says "hi". i look in his eyes and see that same smug little look - like he knows something i dont and that it makes him feel powerful. i have to admit that i wanted to hurt him bad. i have had lots of training in martial arts and fighting and i KNOW i could have snapped multiple bones in his body and no one on that tram could have stopped me. it was tempting.

instead i stood up, looked him in his eyes, and told him "you better get the F off the tram at the next stop or i kick your F'ing ass".
he says "why do you want to talk to me that way".
i told him "my wife told me everything. i know it all. i know about the video of the maid masturbating you with her feet. i know you wanted to be more than friends with her. she has told me everything and there are no more secrets. you better get off the F'ing tram at the next stop i beat you so F'ing badly that you wish for the rest of your life you get off the tram."
when i mentioed the maid video and "more than friends" he could tell i was hyped on adrenaline and was completely serious. that smug little look disappeared really quickly and was replaced by fear. i think he realized that sh1t had gotten really serious and really fast, it wasnt some stupid little game anymore.
he turned towards the door without a word and waited to get off. when he turned his back to me i have to admit i was tempted to give him a serious kick in the back to send him flying out the doors when they opened. i resisted that urge too. i pointed at the doors and said "go".
i doubt most of the tram understood most of what we said (it was in english) but they understood the gist. when he got off the tram at least half of the tram pointed at him and started laughing at him. he stood there humiliated as we drove off.
i saw him through the window walk across the road and start walking down the street. i was more hyped on adrenaline at that moment than i had been on many combat operations i had been on. i was seriously tempted to get off at the next stop and walk back to him and beat him like a drum on the sidewalk. i resisted that urge too.

i came home feeling pretty empowered. it felt nice to FINALLY have all the facts BEFORE a situation occured than after. before it was always afterwards.
for instance, i find out LATER that LTA guy wasnt just a friend but LTA guy ... after i say its okay for him to spend the night at the house when im out of town. i find out LATER that the "friend" of my wifes i met was actually ONS guy #1.
to have all the facts BEFORE i see the guy was so empowering. it made me feel so much better because one of the worst things has always been "not knowing anything" and finally i am beginning to feel that i do know most things. its a huge mental difference.

it was exceedingly nice to let this guy i knew about his bullsh1t, that my wife HAD finally been honest with me, to resist the urge to break multiple bones in his body, and to utterly humiliate him.

so all in all yesterday was out F'ing standing!


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 6:30 AM, April 17th (Thursday)

wow william! I'm proud of you. Proud of both of you. You are both getting your shit together. I don't now how you could keep it together in that situation on the tram. I may have very well lost it. I'm sure that must have felt like a major release afterwards. I'm guessing kinda like shaking an 800lbs gorilla of your back? And to know in the end gave you the power. That's what you have been looking for.

Positive signs from the Mrs. Tell her I approve and to keep it up. Sounds like you are helping each other more and more. She's trying to help you heal and in doing so she's helping herself heal. I know it's still hard and terrifying for both of you. But you are both making progress,

I'm very happy to hear it.

Hopefully lara's health returns to normal soon.

Keeping all 3 of you in my thoughts.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:35 AM, April 17th (Thursday)

thanks :)

one of the worst parts since D-Day 1 was the realization that that many people were behaving very inappropriately with my wife (and she with them) and while they all knew all about me and our marriage i knew only lies (either direct lies, omission, minimization, concealment, etc) about them.

that she would tell me about these people but (obviously) not the truth. that some of these people were brought to our house or i was introduced to them or i saw them around. always in ignorance of what was really going on while they knew the whole time and were probably revelling in the knowledge they were doing crap with her and i was a clueless bast@rd.

having the balance of power come back where i DO have information, where i know enough to be able to make an intelligent decision, and where im not basically this clueless guy was a HUGE feeling.

that i know. that i have access to the information now. that my wife FINALLY told me the truth about him. that all made me feel very empowered in dealing with him.

not beating him like a drum - that was more difficult.

to use an analogy:
- we have been trapped in a limbo dungeon because the full truth hasnt come out yet.
- i have the option to leave the dungeon at anytime but i can only do so without her.
- the only way for us to leave this dungeon together is for her to finally tell me everything, completely and without holding back.
- the only reason we are still in this dungeon is because she hasnt told everything yet.

i think she had gotten that on a theoretical level in her mind but i think a few weeks ago when i exploded at her is when she got it in her heart. i think the fact that i told her - i had every reason to leave already, each one of these guys from ONS 1 onwards was sufficient grounds to leave and i didnt have to search for a reason to leave, i already had LOTS of reasons to leave. but what i was flailing for was a reason to stay and what she was failing to give me was a reason to stay. i think that was when the full "ahhh" moment arrived for her.

only time will tell.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
Merlin
Member
Member # 30221
Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, April 17th (Thursday)

How many more d-days will it take for you to leave the 'dungeon'?


"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." D. H. Lawrence

Her: WW/57 Me: BS/63 24yrs M
3 great kids, now 22, 20, 17 b,b,g
D-Day 8/14/08, D 1/13/11


Posts: 1164 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: East Coast
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 8:09 AM, April 17th (Thursday)

at this point i "think" the only things left are all the details.

the list she produced had one person she had "forgotten" but since she did the same thing with roughly 14 other people (exchanged nude pics) it seems "small" in comparison and i guess i can understand forgetting him amongst such a crowd.

but what she hasnt really done is provided clear and accurate details about most of the people and what exactly she did. she has for some but not all of them.

a broad overview, yes. details - no.

at this point
- another D-Day would have me leaving. something really major that was hidden - yes. id go.
- more trickle truth or delaying telling the details - yes. id go.

in fact, ive just about reached the limit. ive explained to her that im not going to dig for stuff, ask for details, try to pull facts out, etc.
its HER JOB to actively work to provide the facts and truth to me, that i shouldnt have to ask for anything anymore and wont be doing so anymore, but rather she should be trying as hard as possible to get as much information to me as quickly as she can.
that im tired of it all. that its been 10 months since D-Day 1 and i still dont have all the facts and the only reason that i dont have all the facts is because she resists providing them or procrastinates.
that this situation is intolerable for me and unacceptable. that i will not just sit around as she continues to delay but that i will leave if it continues. that if she wants me to stay than she had better start providing me with a reason to stay - and a HUGE part of that reason is finally getting the FULL truth.

at this point the trust curency is very low and more delay just eats it up and its not going to be replenished until she finally tells me everything.

i honestly think she thought that providing an overview of each person was enough. from my perspective thats a nice start but i want the dots connected too.

thats at a minimum in addition to the other things she is supposed to be doing.

so yeah, ive reached a point where even significant delays would be enough to leave. at this point, as i told her, im looking for a reason to stay.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, April 17th (Thursday)

but what she hasnt really done is provided clear and accurate details about most of the people and what exactly she did. she has for some but not all of them.

a broad overview, yes. details - no.

at this point
- another D-Day would have me leaving. something really major that was hidden - yes. id go.
- more trickle truth or delaying telling the details - yes. id go.

Continuing to hope for your sake that she continues every other night and gets all this out so that the 3 of you can move on.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 5:44 AM, April 18th (Friday)

we had another discussion last night
-------------------------

person IV

a musician from norway that my wife knew before we had met. they told each other that they found the other attractive and they had planned to meet at some concerts. possibly she sent him nude photos or had flirting talks but cant remember (it was 2004 or 2005).

they continued chatting and talking throughout our entire relationship and marriage. she mentioned him to me early in 2006 but omitted the finding each other attractive, possibility of nude photos exchanged, etc parts of it. my wife discussed marital details with him.

in 2012 she sent a photo of the tattoo on her stomach, her boobs were covered by her shirt. she may have sent nude photos or flirted with him at this point but cant remember.
------------------------

Person V

1997 or 1998 met on a music group channel/forum.

1998 – they chatted ( sexual talk, him sending videos and photos of him nude or masturbating and miki sending nude photos, as well as her watching him masturbate while they were on cams) for a few months.

1999- 2003 – irregular contact. My wife in other relationships and nothing with him.

2004 – my wife drove to see him, they go to a hotel, she watches him masturbate.

2004-2005 – they lose touch. I met my wife in 2005.

Spring 2011 – (possibly late 2010) my wife finds him on facebook and adds him. They exchange phone numbers and were in irregular contact – mostly about foods and his health issues. When they meet he was having a sexual relationship with a married woman which my wife felt was “wrong”. My wife opens a window into our marriage to him and discusses it with him in some detail.

11/2011- my wife tries to get him job as web designer for an application she is also working on.

Spring 2012 – inappropriate relationship resumes. He asked for a photo, my wife sent one of her clothed, he said he wanted nudes, she said “okay” and started to send them irregularly to “make him feel better”. Felt sending pics took away her dignity but she continued to do so. Worried about our daughter at some point in this but chose not to stop but never had even a thought about her marriage or me. At some point my wife made a joke about seeing a sex video of him, he said “of girl giving him a bj, my wife says “sure”, later he says he couldn’t make it and was sorry but the camera was too obvious, my wife says she “wasn’t serious” about wanting the video”.

06/12 – he comes to Milan for a concert. My wife meets him outside our house, he drives them to her family business, come back to stadium, he goes to concert. My wife told me about him then before she went outside to see him but obviously lied about the extent and nature of the relationship with him.

Fall 2012 – my wife discusses LTA guy with him and wants advice on how to get LTA guy phone number. he told my wide not to do because of marriage and daughter but my wife said she didn’t care. He suggested patience but my wife said that was not acceptable. Later she told him she got the number. Its possible she told him about relationship with LTA guy and discussed details of that relationship with him but she isnt sure. She cant remember telling him she broke up with LTA guy and cant remember telling him that she got back with me.

Spring 2013 – inappropriate relationship ends.

06/2013 – last phone and contact between them ends at this time or slightly before. D-Day 1 took place around this time.

08/13 – two months after D-Day 1 my wife closes her facebook account and opens a new one. She re-adds this guy to her new account.

01/14 – second facebook account closed.

We didn’t finish discussing him.
When did she delete his phone number? Was she in contact with him after D-Day (how did he find her on facebook with the settings she used when she says no contact after june)? How did the inappropriate relationship end? Was contact continued after it ended and between june? Were the photos exchanged starting in spring discussed in summer of 2012? Why did my wife agree to meet him outside our house and take him to the family business? Why didn’t my wife tell me about him until her “full and complete list”?
----------------------------------

prior to the conversation my wife wanted to postpone it. she felt sick and like she might vomit. i got very upset. i feel ive waited a LONG time for the truth and my patience for waiting is pretty well exhausted. so the conversation started off very badly with hostility from both sides (her feeling im being unreasonable and my feeling that another delay isnt acceptable). this hostility remained throughout the conversation.

i was also upset that my wife apparently hadnt prepared for the discussion. she basically wanted to sit down and ask me "who do you want to talk about" whereas i feel these discussions are vital to our marriage and that she should treat them as every bit as important as a business meeting (preparing for it, outlining, etc). she felt this wasnt fair because she had thought i would control the topic as we go. we need to resolve this for the future.

it took from 2230 to 0130 to get this many facts out because of the bickering back and forth while we discussed the issues.

i felt very betrayed because responses to previous questions were yet again contradicted.
- that yet again in response to "who knew about your affair with LTA guy" another name popped out.
- that yet again in response to "which of these guys had come to our house or family business" another name popped out
- that yet again in response to "when did the inappropriate behavior and lying first start" the answer has changed to now include pretty cover throughout our entire relationship and marriage (albeit not exchanging nude photos or having sex with them but more lying to me about the nature of relationships with people and continuing contact with people she had a sexual natured relationship with while we were married even if the nature of their relationship changed during most - or all - or our marriage. to me being in contact with them is "inappropriate" and concealing the extent of the prior relationship is lying while to her the inappropriate was sending photos, flirting, or sexual activity).

we didnt really finish either of the two people we discussed but the bulk of the work with them is done. i guess tomorrow night we finish them and then go onwards.

we went to bed angry at each other and argued for a little while then went to sleep. when i woke up this morning my wife was still upset and decided she didnt want to limit talking with me to basic essentials and then left for work. we plan on talking about why we are both angry at the other tonight.

all in all this session didnt go very well at all.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, April 18th (Friday)

and the roller coaster rolls on. Ideally you guys should have someone mediate some of this between the two of you. But if I remember correctly I don't think MC is an option (same as IC)?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, April 19th (Saturday)

i dont know if it would really help because what i do need is for someone to be able to sit down and give reasonably factual and accurate accounts.

i get this incredibly muddled account full of irrelevant people that frankly have no real bearing on the story or what happened.

finding out the backstory on a guy that she was sending nude pics to during our marriage, i get
"me & two of my friends went to see a show at x place with a dj in 2004 or maybe 2005. i cant remember which year but i can think about it. you know guy ABC that i mentioned once 6 years ago. do you remember? he was the dj that night there. it was at a small club. lots of people were there though. anyway. we go to the show. i stay at a hotel with my friends. the next day they all drive back to home but i dont. i drive to go see the guy we are talking about...."

relevant
in 2004 i drove to see this guy. i cant remember exactly what happened there but i know that i watched him masturbate at one point.

the only exaggeration in this is that i pared down what im being told lest it run page after page.

but ultimately the only important part is that she had a sexual relationship with him in the past and despite knowing it was wrong to do so ... she added him back into her life, lied to me about her past relationship with him, restarted a sexual relationship with him (albeit "only" 6-8 photos deciding that he was more important to her than her marriage, me, her daughter, or her dignity and self respect) in spring 2012, saw him in summer 2012 for a few minutes near OUR house directly lying to me again about her previous and current relationship with him, and ended it with him about spring 2013.

it just takes 2 hours to get these basic facts out. included in the frustration factor is her continuing to try to redefine "lying".

[This message edited by william at 7:39 AM, April 20th (Sunday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
sodamnlost
Member
Member # 37190
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, April 20th (Sunday)

I'm just now reading your story. Sounds very much like my SAWH's actions. Have you guys considered her seeing someone to see if she is a SA or has another mental issue? To me, this level just screams something more.


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's not a fluffy pink unicorn squirting liquid rainbows, complete with pots of gold out of it's ass.

Posts: 769 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Nowhere pretty
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:21 AM, April 21st (Monday)

i think there is more, a serious problem underlying it all. idk what it is.

but yes, we do plan on doing so.

i think its self esteem related as well. she traded her dignity, sex, etc for approval ---- with the most F'ed up people possible ---- thinking she was "helping them" ---- which then dragged her down to feeling below them ---- which then increased the guilt and shame while decreasing her self esteem ---- so she tries to find someone else to boost her and the cycle continued.

all of which i find very perplexing to say the least.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)

How are things going with the william family lately? W feeling better? Things still progressing and moving forward?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)

things seem to be going well. we didnt have a discussion last night, we will do it tonight (we had to get up very early this am).

otherwise, things seem like they are going well. ive not crashed for a few days and she is still doing all the right things.

i think she is starting to understand what is meant by triggers now and to understand how brutal the downward spiral can be when they hit. shes getting better at spotting them and also actively avoiding putting me in positions where im surrounded by them.

i suspect my stress level will increase tonight as we begin to go over more of the people and some of the ones due for discussion are pretty significant in terms of her affairs.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)

Still promising that she may be starting to "get it" I have plenty of hope for you guys.

Hopefully not more IDK/ICR tonight. Keep hanging in there and staying strong my friend. I will be thinking of you and that daughter of yours tonight. Let us know how it goes for you.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
doggiediva
Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)

I think there are also issues as to your WS's lifestyle/job/traveling that may throw wrenches into R, given her poor boundaries..
Learning better boundaries and implementing them will be ongoing and lifelong..Is it possible for her to switch jobs/ careers so she will have less temptation or for you to travel with her more?

[This message edited by doggiediva at 9:28 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 1255 | Registered: Nov 2011
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday)

((((william))))


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 5:07 AM, April 24th (Thursday)

person vi

she met him in 1998. he was in a band she liked. they became friends around 2003. in 2004 or so they lost touch. in 2008 and 2009 they met at a show and kept in sporadic touch. in 2011 they began to chat more. in 2012 both my wife and he lost a parent, they talked about that often together. she saw him several times in the club where her LTA guy worked (before and during the affair). most of their conversations were pretty short and mostly hi, how are you, and bye types. however, he also gets the somewhat standard story from my wife that shes very unhappy in marriage.

around 2011 he started asking my wife to do stuff with him. go to shows, go listen to music at the studio at his house, etc. my wife rarely did. she saw it as friends.

in 2012 he was dj at a show. she came to say hi and later to say bye. he told her it was a shame to leave because if she stayed they could "make out" (in italian "french kiss" later). my wife is surprised, declines, and leaves.

she sees him a few more times and they continue to chat in brief talks. her friends tell her they think he is interested in "more" than being friends. she isnt sure but thinks maybe so.

new years 2012/2013 he calls her, invites her to new years eve party. my wife declines.

------------------

we are working chronologically on people. thus the "worst" are still to come.

my wife didnt see THEN how telling him her marriage was bad could have made him see that she was looking outside of it.

my wife didnt see THEN that asking him to go places with her or him asking her could be considered as a "date" which by her waffling made him feel she might be interested.

my wife didnt see THEN that staying in contact with him after the "making out" remark and without addressing it would be seen as a sign to being open to it.

i guess i shouldnt be surprised anymore but i still am ... my wife's boundaries really sucked. her behavior made people feel she was open to their advances. she didnt know how to shut off inappropriate conversations before they happened or in such a way that they didnt happen again.

but, this one wasnt as bad as it could have been and as bad as they get later so the conversation didnt spiral out of control or get really negative.

[This message edited by william at 5:41 AM, April 24th (Thursday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, April 24th (Thursday)

still here. thanks for the update william


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, April 28th (Monday)

thinking of you william. haven't heard from you in a bit. Bumping you up. Things still progressing forward? Able to go over the other details you need? How is W feeling a few weeks after her surgeries? Hope they didn't find anything else. And of course how are you doing?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, April 28th (Monday)

ive got the last two talk night results to post. ive just been busy with other things the last few days. ill try to get to it tomorrow.

but im still alive and kicking


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:23 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

person vii

08/2004 - met him. casual relationship with sex starts.

12/2004 - my wife leaves country. relationship ends with him arguing he wanted BF/GF relationship and she didnt.

2005 - wife meets me. a few months later a friend coming back to italy from amsterdam stops at my appt in germany to go to the bathroom while my wife (then gf) is there and im at work - he is one of people in car. they dont even talk.

08/2011 - my wife contacts him to bury the hatchet. cant give a real reason why it was important. they send a few emails back and forth, nothing to them. my wife conceals this information from me.

2011 - they see each other 2 times. exchange phone numbers, and chat.

03/2012 - with no warning my wife sends him 2 unsolicited risque photos (bra and panties) in an email. he either never responded to the email OR she deleted the response. she cant remember sending them.
------------------

person viii

1998 - met, quasi bf/gf relationship, break up in december.

2002 - see each other again, end up having a ONS in her appartment.

2005 - my wife and i meet

2011 - see each other on street, exchange phone #s,friend on facebook.

2011 - meet for a coffee, my wife lies about who she is going to see.

2012 - meet for a drink, my wife lies about who she is going to see.

2012 - contacts him about storage facilities for work.

2013- he discusses cosmic bond with her, says he wants a "private paradise" with her, and to create an intimate place to be refuge from private life. she says only wants friends with him and then asks if he is fishing for an affair he says "no" and that she misunderstood.

06/2013 - D-day 1. my wife tells him she is serious about marriage.

end 2013/early 2014 - wife deletes fb account and creates new one. he texts her "why delete me", she adds him to new account.

10/2013 - last phone contact between them.

maybe sent him nude photos. cant remember.
at some point tells him she "might be starting an affair", he replies "why not with me".

------------------------

person ix

12/2011 - i meet him at family business. he gives me phone # and wants me to go to a bar with him. i never call him.

09/2012 - my wife meets him at family business. they chat, he finds out she is my wife. they exchange phone numbers. they start texting and calling each other.

10 or 11/2012 - goes with him and some female friends to club where LTA guy is working (at this point she is still pursuing him). person ix notices something between them either this time or next time they go. asks about it. wife says yes, she wants him. person ix against it. wife tells him how bad i am, how bad marriage is, how unhappy she is, etc.

10/2012 - 04/2012 - they go out to clubs together at least 6+ times she can remember. i remember more often. when my wife sleeps with LTA guy she brags to this guy "i got what i wanted from him". goes to his house 2x to drink coffees. one time crying after a fight (with me??). he lives a few blocks away.

02/2012 - he meets my wife at family business, wants to talk to her. tells her he wants to be more than friends with her. he wants to hold her hand, kiss, hug, etc. she says "no", either friends or nothing. he says nothing. leaves.

??/2012 - he shows her a video of his cleaning lady masturbating him with her feet for money.

??/2012 - he comes to our apartment to help with a problem with the front door. my wife tells me how great it is that he is such a good friend to come, how important it is to have friends like him, and that i should be thankful for him.

04/2012 - he contacts her. says he was stupid. they go out to clubs again. they argue going out and he brings her home and leaves. both very angry. end of relationship between them.

05/2012 - phone crashes. whatsapp restores, adds him as contact, and she deletes him from all contacts.

06/2012 - D-day 1

08/2012 - they see each other on the street, he walks towards her, she walks away from him.

04/2014 - i run into him on bus and tell him get off or i kick his ass. he gets off the bus.

-------------

there are still unanswered questions about person ix.

this information was compiled after several talks.


i ended up crying last night when i went to bed. started crying and couldnt stop - i wasnt even thinking of this stuff. i just started crying. i think the emotional toll and the weight of all of this stuff is breaking me down.

[This message edited by william at 7:54 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 6:36 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

Hi william. Did you let her see you cry? Did she provide comfort to you? Did she turn to you?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
jjct
Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:39 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

william)))

Posts: 6650 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

we went to bed together. within a minute or two of lying down i started sobbing uncontrollably. she was lying next to me.
she did turn to me, did comfort me, and did apologize over and over.

this is just so much stuff to deal with. its heartbreaking. the worst part is that this is the "easy part" ... the truly terrifying ones are still to come :(

sometimes i feel like im just breaking to parts inside. i dont know if i can handle all this.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:34 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

pm sent


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

thanks.
ill reply to it later. right now im just not really able to concentrate on anything anymore. im also feeling especially bitter right now and dont think i can see things in a very rational way with the way i am feeling.

[This message edited by william at 10:19 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

no need to reply. is there anything you like to do that can soothe your mind for a bit? Get your mind off of it? I remember at one point you said something about rollerblading? Or running?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

sending strength brother.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2995 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, April 29th (Tuesday)

((((((william)))))

I am glad you were able to let some of the feelings overwhelm you. IO think it's good to let some of the emotion escape. Of course it's staggeringly overwhelming. Sending you a little peace and strength, but I know it can't lessen the burden you're walking with.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:21 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

How goes the battle william?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:05 AM, May 5th (Monday)

thank you all for your support.

i just couldnt take much more of the neverending stream of vomit hitting me without taking a break for a few days. instead of discussing this we watched some movies and spent time together. it allowed me some time to catch my breath and to get my feet back under me.


person x
2002 - met. kissed 2x.

2003 - lost contact with each other

2005 - my wife and i meet

2009 - wife contacted him via email. why = IDK. she felt relieved that they never discussed kisses. didnt tell me she was in contact with him and besides being just another lie this was also a violation of the no contact agreement my wife and i had regarding person i because this was a friend of his.

2011 - my wife goes to nyc on a trip. asks him for phone number and goes to see him at his work. she felt it was "irrelevant, that a couple of kisses dont change anything" so she concealed this meeting from me. went to bar he works at to talk 1x and 1x go on a long walk.

2011 - they keep in contact via facebook after her trip. kept this secret from me.

nov/dec 2012 - sent him pics of some of her tattoos. started to discuss marriage in detail with him.

jan 2013? - sent 2-5 unsolicited photos to him, never nude but risque (bustier or in bra or in short shorts, etc) despite "not being attracted to him" and "i dont know" as a reason why she sent them. she felt uncomfortable doing so and was "relieved" that he never directly sexually to her photos, never made lewd comments, and never asked for more. yet she continued sending them.

i dont know exactly when the photo sending ended yet or how.
i dont know when they severed contact yet (although i know they are now NC).


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:12 AM, May 5th (Monday)

Thanks for the update. Glad to see you take a break and catch your breath. Also happy to see you branching out more and more over the site lately. I get not wanting to post to other people's threads, but in a way I find that it can be therapeutic. The advice you have been giving is invaluable.

Continue to hang in there william.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, May 5th (Monday)

thanks.

i was really hesitant to provide advice because i handled so much very badly early on. i somewhat feel that my advice might not be any good.

i felt (feel) pretty safe recommending that people pay attention to those who have been on the site awhile.

but yeah, i am starting to get more involved in some ways. i guess its trying to pay it back and forward for all of the help that ive gotten.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, May 5th (Monday)

Don't second guess yourself on the advice front. You have been through so much pain for so long, your determination to get through it, your compassion for your family, your determination for R, getting to your breaking point and be willing to walk away, your ability to articulate suffering, your courage, your strength.... dude... I say is there anyone more qualified than you? Do your thing. It's hugely appreciated!!!


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, May 5th (Monday)

wow!!

thank you.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, May 7th (Wednesday)

we talked about 3 more people last night. they dont really deserve numbers on the list.

with all of them she had some sort of physical relationship with them a year or more before we met (sex with one of them, sex and sorta participating in a 3 somesome with another, and laying in bed with another after a night of drinking but nothing else).

she got back into contact with each of them during our marriage. i knew at the time about what she had done with them before. she met each of them "as friends" during our marriage, i knew about the meetings too. i even said it was okay at the time.

obviously i didnt have the FULL information - that she was also cheating with other people - or i wouldnt have been so trusting and so willing to say "okay" to seeing them.

so im not happy because i was deprived of the very information i would have needed to make an intelligent choice. however, she didnt send them nude photos or F them during our relationship, surprisingly didnt even bad mouth me or our marriage to them (which makes me wonder why NOT to these three when evidently everyone else heard all about it), and all in all it wasnt too terrible.

however, they are also on the no contact list because she HAS had physical contact with them in the past and its better to avoid things that can get dangerous or tempting or be misunderstood.

all in all the talk went pretty well.

then today i was dumb. ive been taking emails my wife sent to herself and moving them to a folder so we can discuss them later when we get to her LTA guy. i read a few. the ones i read are horrible. god. it felt like a knife had been stuck into me. i should have saved them for the talk rather than look at them now. i told my wife. she says she understands and feels terrible, that if she hadnt been so stupid we and i wouldnt have to go through this sh!t now, that she feels sick to her stomach when she thinks about it and who she was during that time, that she loves me, and that she is sorry. i still feel at what i read.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 6:55 PM, May 7th (Wednesday)

Keep those updates coming when you feel up to it william.

If I feel anxious and sick on my end of the keyboard I can only imagine how you feel. When is the LTA's guy walk through coming? Would it be better for you to do it sooner than later so that you are not so tortured waiting. Not that you should be in any hurry to have your knee caps blown off again, but man when is this shit going to end for you brother? I want to see some healing for YOU. You aren't going to be able to do that until you get through this shit.

I'm still here listening.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:18 AM, May 8th (Thursday)

we are working in chronological order. one night stand guy 1 should be coming up pretty soon. one night stand guy 2 is inbetween him and the LTA guy, but so are TONS of guys she was sexting with. so far we have covered only a few of them. then after LTA guy come the rest of the sexting guys.

i wanted them in chronological because
1: i didnt want the worst first
2: it allows me to make sense of it better if it is arranged into some sort of order. basically THIS is her timeline so it makes sense to go chronological.
3: there was lots going on at the time we started so it seemed better to start with the "easier".

it will be getting really bad really soon

we get the results on my wifes tests today (to see what if anything they found that wasnt right when she had the procedure).


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, May 12th (Monday)

we discussed a guy the other night that she had sent nude photos too. she even took our daughter to meet him at a friends house . i have to wonder WTF goes through her mind sometimes.
i got so many IDK and ICR that i cant even place his crap on the timeline im building - its incredibly vague.
so tonight i guess i need to sit down and patiently dig it all out of her. hearing it is bad enough but having to dig it out makes it so much worse.

then, after we finish with him, the next guy will probably be covered. hes another one that she sent photos to, sexted, and did so for almost 2 years. hes going to be very hard to deal with emotionally.

the night after tomorrow night we probably hit her first ONS guy. that is going to be brutal to hear.

wish me strength and patience because this crap sometimes seems like too much to deal with


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
jjct
Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:59 AM, May 12th (Monday)

STRENGTH to you william)))

Posts: 6650 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:13 AM, May 12th (Monday)

IDK and ICR

Hasn't she learned anything yet? That those words are painful. william I'm pissed off for you. I can only imagine how you feel.

Continuing to send you courage and strength.

Thinking of your daughter too.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, May 12th (Monday)

im not even sure if she DOES know ...
so many guys, so much crap ... maybe they all blend in together.

when did you all start sending photos? IDK
why did you send the photos? IDK
how many photos? ICR
what kind of photos? definitely nude but ICR
when did the photos stop? IDR
was there any flirting in your phone calls or texts? ICR

sigh....

im not even sure what to make of it. shes full of remorse but just cant seem to remember all sorts of stuff. i KNOW if id been messing around on her id sure as hell remember it because it would have been noteworthy to me, that she cant even remember makes it seem that it was all so casual to her - nothing special, nothing to remember ... which means that she was cheating without even a second thought or even putting importance to her cheating when she was cheating. somehow that makes it seem that much worse


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, May 16th (Friday)

person xi

2010 - my wife met him outside a club. was a friend of a friend. hes a sound technician for many small bands. she found him "good looking".

june 2011 onwards - my wife started running into him at shows she went too. they talked each time and it got easier to talk as they went. she admits that part of the reason she sought out talking to him was because he was attractive.

sept 2011 - my wife was working for a small time musician. they needed a sound tech. he knew this guy - my wife and he agreed that he would be good for the job. my wife's decision was influenced by the fact that she found him "good looking". phone numbers were exchanged "for work" and one of them added the other to facebook. their facebook conversations were never work related while their phone calls were primarily work related but had some personal element to them. In october 2011 she had a ONS with another guy who worked with the same musician but this guy did not know about it.

sept-oct 2011 - he comes to milan (lives in another city). he was working up the street from where the musician lived. 1x she went up the street to see him - she had brought our daughter to work one day and after work decided to see this guy - she walked with our daughter up the street, met him outside of his work place, and they chatted a few minutes . at this point their discussions hadnt gone much beyond her being unhappy with her marriage and what an asshole I was.

nov to dec 2011 - my wife stopped working with this musician. at this point onwards all contact with this guy had no work relation at all. From this point onwards there were many facebook chats and texts between them and maybe 4-5 phone calls between now and spring 2012.

winter 2011 - he comes to milan for work. my wife met him for a beer for about 30 minutes and engaged in a bragging contest of "who's life is more F'ed up" with him. at this point there was definitely flirting involved. My wife was trying very hard to get his attention.

summer 2012 - photos start. originally of my wife's tattoos. always unsolicited. morphed from my tattoos to definitely my wife's breasts and quite possibly her ass. maybe about 5 photos sent over a roughly 3 month period. All were sent using facebook. while sending him nude photos my wife is also trying to portray herself as a victim/martyr in a bad marriage who is loyally hanging in there despite being incredibly unhappy. she sees how hypocritical this was now but didnt then.

sept 2012 - he is coming to milan. my wife asks him to come by the family business. he does but she is too busy to talk to him. he hangs out in front awhile and then leaves. this is the last time she saw him in person.

sept - nov 2012 - he expresses discomfort with being between involved in the dispute between her and the musician. he gradually stops replying to her texts and eventually doesnt answer the phone. My wife tries to keep their relationship going but eventually the relationship is severed. This story doesn’t really make sense because the relationship with the musician had ended almost 10 months before so its not like he didn’t know about it for a long time. However, my wife has no real explanation although it could tie into the fact that she stopped sending him photos.

June 2013 – false R begins between my wife and i.

July 21, 2013 – goes to a concert with a friend who is also a friend of LTA guy who arranges to meet co-worker with LTA guy. My wife doesn’t leave the group but does “detach”. Afterwards she goes to eat with her friend and while there they see a guy who is a friend of this guy, my wife and he chat together. At the time she doesn’t see that this is a betrayal of her new “commitment” to me and our relationship.

My wife was the driving force behind their relationship becoming personal. She was also the one that brought sex up as a topic for their discussion (not between them but in general). She sent him between 3-5 photos beginning with tattoos, as an excuse to send him photos, and gradually culminating in photos of her breasts (definitely) and possibly her ass. She sent him these photos because she found him attractive and wanted attention from him which he wasn’t giving either enough of or in the right way (he wasn’t explicitly flirting with her enough). She says she often used the same photos for more than one guy so its very possible she shared these with others but cant remember who with. She also asked him for photos but he never sent any to her. She has no idea why she “only” sent 5. She knew that he thought she wanted sex from him and “joked” with her once telling her that if she didn’t stop he might take her up on her offer one day – in a round about sort of way. She says she never really considered that it might actually lead to sex because she thought she was in control of the situation. However, she also concedes that she felt in control of the situation with ONS 1 and ONS 2 guys – up until she was having sex with them and that it is possible she might have ended up in this situation with him too but that there is no way to tell now. she says if she could go back in time she wouldn’t have started really even talking to him at all, just a hi and bye which would have left him as no more than a friend of a friend that she vaguely recognized instead of bringing him into her life and putting herself into a crap position.

There is some debate between us over the word “excited” and “over-excited”. Shes very fluent in many languages, English included …. But its not her mother tongue. Getting her to define those words is difficult, she uses them a lot. I have asked her to get 5 synonyms for each so I can better understand what exactly she means by those words.


this whole story really bothers me, i cant exactly put my finger on WHY it bothers me. perhaps because its the first one so far that she had no prior history with or that didnt involve them both acting inappropriately but instead involved my wife basically chasing this guy. i think this story is going to haunt me for awhile


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 10:17 AM, May 16th (Friday)

instead involved my wife basically chasing this guy.

Could it be that your wife has a deep need to please people and that when they either ignore her or start to turn away she tries that much harder to please them?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, May 16th (Friday)

yeah. that seems to be part of it. its what she thought when she had ONS 1 and 2. she had got them interested, she owed it to them - lest they lose interest.

sigh...

i posted this in another thread. its something else we have spent the last few days on...

the abuse in my wife's parents house was incredible.
i can still see the mental abuse now, its ongoing. no matter what my wife does its NEVER good enough. whereas her 32 year old brother has never done wrong - despite being an alcoholic drug user who has never had a job, doesnt know how to use washing machine, and has never successfully completed a task (no matter how simple) in his entire life.

the emotional abuse i dont see because it doesnt happen when im there because her family is a little wary of me but i still see flashes of it.i know last week her brother threatened to throw her out a window while her dad sat there silently watching. her mom used to scream she was a whore at age 10 or 11 for wanting to play outside and was told that she must be going to the park to suck dick for money. no kidding. her dad never gave her any attention except to tell her to shut up, that she messed up, or to deliver a kick to her while she was going by.

the physical abuse was astounding. her mom beat the hell out of her regularly. a story that made me whenever my wife needed to go to a dentist as a young child for a cavity. her mom pulled the teeth out - and 2x even got the wrong tooth. not always were these milk teeth but were also permanent teeth.

the sexual abuse was bad. my mother in law made my wifes brother sleep in the bed with her until he was 12, she masturbated him every night. known pedophiles stayed in the house for weeks and months on end. her brother was probably raped several times. my wife - who knows ... she has blank periods in her memory that encompass years of her life. she had a cousin share a bed with her and every night the cousin would masturbate herself to sleep.

the stories go on and on. easily verified stories. i knew a few of the stories before the last year and a half but had no idea of the extent, the pervasiveness, and much of the sexual abuse was kept from me. much of this came out after my wifes mother died.

but my wife doesnt really connect her FOO issues with her cheating. its me that is starting too. she had never really considered it. in fact she had psycho therapy for years (stopped about 5 or 6 years ago) and NEVER told the psychotherapist alot of stuff so the psychotherapist was convinced (and shocked)that my wife had managed to get out of this family mentally intact (she was familiar with the family because child protective custody services remanded my wifes brother there for psychological care). the family is pretty well known to the police and social services as well.

in fact my wife was astounded when i made the connection and told her what i thought. she had never even considered it.

i wish id known much of this stuff before.

but yeah, this explains part of it all. i think. but there are other issues as well that explain another part of it. but of course that still leaves the other half of the equation to be discovered.

my wife isnt in IC yet. the italian system moves slow. however - she has done something HUGE in relates to this (on her own and without my input).

my wifes father is a piece of shit who is very sick. hes unable to care for himself. he picked his son to caregive him. naturally this fuck up cant take care of himself much less the father. at one point they had 2 carrots and a zuchini in the fridge - as the total food in the house. in italy the family is legally liable for the care of the parents - so my wife is legally liable if stupid brother manages to care give his father into the grave. the brother has repeatedly threatened the life of the father and the house is almost devoid now of furniture because hes broken it all in drunken rages. even if he wants this caregiver - it doesnt matter, my wife can be found liable. so my wife has been having to go to the house to feed her father, bring food, etc. ive argued against it - ive argued emancipation legally and let the fucker rot. my wifes said "no, i cant".

so my wife went to social services. reported the situation. the father is going to be put in a nursing home (where my wife will never need to see him again) and most likely her brother will get police visits. social services wanted to know about my wife. she confessed her affairs to them and asked for help - for her and for repairing the massive damage she has done to me, our daughter, and our marriage . they say they are going to try to help her after they sort the father and son out. the wheels are now in motion and can not be turned back or aside in the italian system.

i am a former marine - pretty straight and narrow kind of guy. try to live my life by the code of "semper fidelis" - honorable, honest, etc. i was in a direct action special operations capable unit and after i got out i provided executive security - on the extremely high end of the scale - for at least 15 years (god, i cant think of dates and stuff right now ... im drained) and have taken martial arts since i was a teenager.

so my wife felt safe with me. im not bragging or anything but i AM the most dangerous capable person in the room in darn near most rooms.

i neglected my wife in early to mid 2011. maybe because she was angry at me or maybe she was angry because i neglected her. hard to say now. but i noticed the script being changed - suddenly i was the asshat in the story. yeah, i resented it. i detached. she got angrier. i detached. on and on.

i do know about many of my wife's ex's. one used to spit in her face while having sex with her. another "ordered her" to never contact him - only he could contact her and she had to respond as he chose. she agreed . another, after taking her virginity, told her that it was her fault that he orgasmed so quickly and that she was terrible in bed and they stayed together for quite some time with her hearing this constantly from him. lots of real winners in the history.

my wife did demonize me to EVERYONE during this two year period she was having affairs. i know this. she twisted stories to make them worse than they were. i MADE her go out in a berlin winter while 8 months pregnant and walk 6 blocks to get a cake - the truth is she asked me to go, i said i didnt want the cake, she said she would go, i said "no, ill get it then", she refused and insisted that she would go and did not want me to come and if i did she would be very angry at me. so i let her go. not nice. i know. but certainly not i forced her to get the damn cake. i hate that stupid cake story. its one of her persistent whines and i put up with her version for years and finally corrected that shit this year - called her on bullshit and refused to accept her revision. she was shocked.

so maybe she did twist some stuff with them to worse than it was. but id wager reality was still pretty bad. i take what she says now with a grain of salt and the same with everything that she has told me in the past too. i dont take anything she says on faith anymore. i know where that led and dont want to be there ever again. however, not one of these guys consider themselves normal. they KNOW they are F'ed up.

my wife says she always knew what was right. but she had learned through life to lie, cheat, and manipulate to get around what she didnt want to do or didnt like (and yes, this defines italians in general) - although she had never cheated on anyone before me.

we are now up to
-about a dozen guys she sexted with.
-a ONS with a different guy
-a ONS (that might actually be sex twice) with one of those roughly dozen guys.
-a LT EA/PA

not one of those guys are "normal" either. they are literally the dregs of the sewer. as an example - LTA guy doesnt brush his teeth, is an alcoholic, has anger control issues, and evidently doesnt know you are supposed to even clean a toilet or an apartment.

so WHY my wife chose the most F'ed up people possible while being incredibly gorgeous herself is something i hope to discover one day.

sorry for the length of this post.

i am SO PROUD of my wife for how she decided to stand up, draw a line with consequences, and then enforce them in regards to her dad and brother!! this is really, really, really HUGE for her.

[This message edited by william at 10:51 AM, May 16th (Friday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 12:04 PM, May 16th (Friday)

i am SO PROUD of my wife for how she decided to stand up, draw a line with consequences, and then enforce them in regards to her dad and brother!! this is really, really, really HUGE for her.

I am too. That is a huge step for her. She certainly has some major FOO issues that she needs to work on if she's ever going to heal herself...and in turn give you some peace of mind. But the fact that she's getting stronger is a great sign. Hopefully she can continue to build on that. There's some horrific stuff in her past that she needs to acknowledge much in the same manner that she has to acknowledge her own atrocities.

Acknowledging my own shit has been just as important as acknowledging my own FOO issues in my healing process. IMO you need to work on both,


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:28 AM, May 19th (Monday)

so we talked about another guy last night. no sex, no photos, and no real flirting with him. just general stupidity. it wasnt that heart breaking to hear about compared to some that we have already discussed and definitely compared to the terrible ones that are soon to come.

but one thing really hit me.
my wife goes to a show at a small club. at this club are the following people:
- ONS 1 guy
- guy she is sexting with and sending nude photos
- this guy
- two people who knew about one ONS 1 guy.

there are about 80 people at the club total.

it never occured to my wife that if you are inappropriately involved with that many people and such a large percentage of the people in a given club - you have an F'ing problem. it does now, but it certainly didnt then.

how someone can have their head stuck that far up their ass ... ill never know.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, May 19th (Monday)

I hope and pray now that she sees daylight that she will become the better person I know she can be. I'm still pulling for your family and know you will get there.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)

covered another two guys last night.

one was just a stupid guy she had worked with who made inappropriate remarks to everyone. nothing more to him. well, except my wife at a work party decided to help a co-worker climb on a table to dance and got up with her (IDK as reason why), this guy had a photo taken of him pretending to lick my wifes boot (another IDK as reason to allow this).

the other was a sad guy with an unhappy marriage. he confided his problems in my wife. she confided hers to him. mostly on facebook but they did meet 2x to drink coffees together. the main problem here was how she opened a serious window into our marriage to him. the most part of this was that while she was talking to him about saving his marriage and how he should go about doing it ... shes knee deep in her LTA and is sexting multiple people . sometimes the hypocrisy is just astounding. he ended up getting divorced and contact fizzled out.

we are planning on covering another 5 easy people the day after tomorrow. none are ones that she was sexting with, exchanging photos with, or had sex with ... but are rather just more stupid and inappropriate behavior.

this list is really long. we are working on a purely chronological basis - counting their start as the time they entered OUR lives. so if she knew someone in 2002, lost contact, and then regained contact in 2012 they would go under 2012 in order of being discussed. this kind of allows me to better understand all of this crap and how it all went down.

so far im noticing some startling trends.

my wife is looking these people up for the most part - shes got no real idea why. both guys above - one leaves her work and she stays in contact with him. do you like him or even think hes a nice guy? no. so why stay in touch? "idk, i felt i had to reply to his mails". why? "idk". the guy divorcing ... she barely knew him in 2002. she looks him up in 2009 or 2010. why? "idk. i was curious how he was." why do you care? "idk".

my wife seems to put herself into stupid and dangerous positions blissfully unaware that shes putting herself into them. she goes up to a guys room that she barely knows. why? "idk". nothing happened ... but what if he had raped or killed her? of wanted to have sex ... could she have said "no" ... because so far theres a few guys that she didnt want to have sex with but did because she didnt feel she could say "no" to them.

she was handing her phone number, contact information, etc out to anyone and everyone that wanted it. then would talk to whoever it was that called - then feel obligated to call them back later ... and then wind up in sporadic contact with them over a long period of time. she would push the talks to the personal, spilling personal details about herself, me, our marriage, our life, etc to anyone that would listen. they would respond in kind. then shes surprised that personal feelings (not necessarily sexual or "love" although sometimes) would develop (id think its inevitable to develop them after sharing deeply personal talks). it would appear that shes basically offering herself to them in some cases and shed be surprised that they respond but disappointed if they didnt. she craved the attention. then if they pushed it ... she couldnt say no. it seems shes lucky she didnt wind up in more back seats of more cars

on the other hand shes seeing how stupid she was then. shes deeply shamed. shes trying hard not to be that person anymore. i can see the effort in her NOW but i have to wonder how she got her head so far up her ass for so long and that i didnt notice it.
i mean, WTF .. you meet some guy, you exchange phone numbers, you talk 2x, you go to his place to give him a ride somewhere, hes not ready so you leave after a bit, and a few weeks later you are picking him up at his place to take him clubbing with other friends. did the common sense button get turned off or was it never there????

but my wifes behavior with these two guys didnt reach a point of inappropriate that they get numbered and put on the comprehensive timeline that im building.

[This message edited by william at 6:13 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
millienotboo
Member
Member # 22415
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, May 20th (Tuesday)

William, I hope that your wife begins getting the help she needs soon. I don't want this to sound like I am excusing anything that she has done but her foo is about as messed up as any I have ever heard of. I wish that you would both do some research on childhood sexual abuse. There is no way in hell that her mother masturbated her son for 12 years but your wife went unscathed. Just no way in hell. She came from very sick, demented stock. It can be overcome but not until this situation is faced and dealt with. Good luck to you, Marine and wife.


M-8 yrs together 11
Me-45 BW
Him-49-WH
D-Day 10-10-2008
In R

Posts: 758 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: South
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:53 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

thanks.

the mother masturbating the brother is just the tip of the iceberg. my wife's mother and father ALWAYS had people staying with the family in the house - amongst others a heroin addict who dangled my wife's brother (as a very small child) out of the window and threatened to drop him unless he got money for drugs, a convicted pedophile, a nymphomaniac who would go to the parks to meet guys for a quickie in the bushes and slept with any male she could - including family - and masturbated in the bed next to my wife (who was then 6-8 years old) every night. the further one digs into the FOO issues the worse it gets. sexual, emotional, and physical abuse were very common.

when i agreed to come to italy with my wife i didnt know most of this, i just knew some weird stories (my wifes mother pulled her teeth by hand and sometimes got the wrong tooth instead of taking her to the dentist type stories), id id known, id never have agreed.

for my wife coming back ... it opened a can of worms in terms of old memories and she would go to their house and get put back into mental and emotionally abuse situations - never when i was there but always when i wasnt. my wife then would minimize it all or keep it secret from me. im only now learning wtf was going on there.

my wife has mental black periods in her life. some cover entire years of her childhood while others cover specific times and incidents. she went to psychotherapy for many years about a decade ago and got much stronger. the psychotherapist knew of the family history and was "shocked" that my wife got out of it unscathed.

but my wife didnt get out of it unscathed. my wife just hid from her psychotherapist the details that would have allowed the psychotherapist to realize that my wife wasnt "unscathed". my wife lied (to herself as well) to the therapist about what her relationships with boyfriends and guys she knew was like - always painting very negative situations so they appeared positive. it caused, IMO, a false diagnosis - sort of like telling a dr your wrist hurts but hiding that your ankle is broken, if you dont mention it hurts or tell him its fine he doesnt look there too deeply. part of this massive coverup was my wife portraying her father as some sort of good guy and her mom as the devil (her mom is the devil and while her father isnt as bad as her ... if he werent compared to the mom he would earn the title devil on his own merits).

we have got the wheels churning in italy for my wife to get counseling, for me to, and for us to get it together. unfortunately, nothing in italy functions very well (perhaps im prejudiced after living in germany for almost a decade where EVERYTHING functions like a swiss watch) and everything takes a very long time (my daughters tooth ache took 1 trip to the dr, 3 trips to the emergency room, and 3.5 weeks to get fixed) and is often done very slapdash (the same tooth ache was caused because a dentist messed up on how he did her filling and left a huge hole inside of the filling).

i posted in the menz thread on this but hearing this stuff is very hard.
there are about a dozen guys she was sexting with, 2 ONS, and a LTA, + almost 50+ OTHER people that she behaved inappropriately with (at minimum opening a window into our marriage and ranging all the way up to flirting with them with everything in between - bad stuff but never terrible, if YKWIM).
i want to know all of it. without knowing, i have no idea of who, what, when, where, or why. i dont count any possible reconciliation as starting until ive found out all the details.

but there are so many people over such a long period of time (all of this was during a two year period) that its not possible to do this in one sit down.its so hard emotionally that we cant even do this everynight - we tried that and realized that we need a "break" in between. so we do it every other night after my daughter goes to bed. we sit and talk for 2-4 hours and cover as much as we can working both by person and chronologically to form an individual timeline per person.

the next day i transcribe both into the PC, email my wife the details, she double checks them to make sure its accurate, corrects what needs correcting, and then sends it back to me. i then enter her corrections into a final version per person and also enter an abbreviated version of those details into a massive timeline that covers everything.

doing it this way means that i get to sit and have diarrhea poured into my mouth (figuratively) as my wife tells me these details. then the next day i get to go over them again as i send them to her and receive them back. so a steady stream of diarrhea is constantly hitting me. its not very nice.

im one of those people who can sleep through anything and get to sleep within a second or two of lying down - at any time. but a month ago the insomnia hit. in finally had to get pills to go to sleep or else see how long i could go with no sleep.
now ive added an anti depressant to the list of drugs im taking. i just read the wiki on it and the side effects are freaking terrifying.
it seems like another injustice that im the one that needs this crap and will be the one that has to deal with the side-effects too.

maybe i just feel down today, but sometimes sh1t just doesnt seem very equitable.

[This message edited by william at 3:34 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:50 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

and tonight its the "other night" out of every other night ... so we get to talk about the affairs ... what makes it especially charming tonight is that its our anniversary too.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Hey william. Thinking about you tonight.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
jjct
Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:38 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

william. yop. Know this. Know this to your bones. To the marrow.
YOU
are the reason SI survives... shhh! brothers THRIVES!
There are not enough words to tell you how thankful I am, you two, are on here.
(I'll keep looking for them though )

Posts: 6650 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 7:55 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Wow William, I just now read your story here, and you do have strength to be hearing and lived all of this.

but my wife doesnt really connect her FOO issues with her cheating. its me that is starting too
I would say the FOO issues ARE the root of her problems. Without question and those need to be worked on soon if not now.

Posts: 4118 | Registered: Jun 2002
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, May 22nd (Thursday)

Bumping up brother william. When you get the chance or feel up to it, let us know how you are doing.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 6:06 AM, May 23rd (Friday)

its hard to express how i feel.

i remember going on a run in my unit one time.

no information given to us - no idea how fast we will run, where we will run, how far, etc. we take off from the barracks and run around the base - periodically coming back towards the barracks as if thats the end of the run. of course spirits lift as we see we are "almost done" and then we would veer away and go further out in another direction. the never knowing made it mentally very tough to handle - your body and spirit are worn down and you dont know WHEN its over so you dont know how much more you need to endure. each time we veered away it would crush the spirit just a little more. of course, this is precisely the run was done this way. going through my mind are thoughts of 'quitting' and falling out of the run, its just tough, to fast, to hard, and to much to handle. but i sucked it up and kept running. so did everyone else.

after a brutal pace for about 12 miles we run onto the grass of our barracks - we think "this is it". then we see that our rifles are stacked there and next to the rifles are our packs (each containing a 20 kilo sand bag). we ran over, got our rifles, put on the pack, and THEN went out running again. the feeling of going from "the worst is over and i survived" to realizing "oh crap, there is MORE and its going to get WORSE" was immense and hit like a brick wall. people fell out that had never fallen out of a run before. they hit "the wall" and couldnt get over or through it.

sometimes it feels like ive just run into the barracks, exhausted mentally and physically, and there is the rifle and pack waiting for me to put them on.

this anniversary felt like that to me.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, May 23rd (Friday)

Wow, William, that is an amazing analogy.

As a marathoner and triathlete I can only imagine the physical and mental anguish you felt that day. But as a BS, nothing is worse. I'd run two marathons back to back before I took on another Dday if I had the choice.

However, I trust that you have the strength to get through this too.

Wishing you the best.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, May 23rd (Friday)

Not only an amazing analogy, but a very painful one.

I hope you are being kind to yourself and getting some long needed sleep.

Still here listening...

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 5:13 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

we covered another two people last night. yet more stupid sh1t but none being bad enough to "deserve" a number.

the first was a former lover of hers from years before we met. in 2011 she looked him up on facebook, chatted with him, exchanged numbers, and talked over the phone. "IDK".
hes married and has children. that was more or less the extent of it. nothing sexual. no flirting. thats it.

the second was a former lover of hers from years before we met as well. in 2011 she looked him on facebook, chatted with him, exchanged numbers, and talked over the phone with him. why any of this? "IDK".
hes married and has children. he lives in rome and when she went in 2011 she called him to meet him there but he couldnt meet her. in 2013 she went back to rome and called him to meet her. they met, had a coffee, chatted, and he gave her a ride to the train station.
in a text he asked her to meet up for sex. my wife didnt encourage it but also didnt say no nor stop talking to him, she made it into a joke. this was before the second rome trip.
im going to let his wife know. she deserves to know shes married to a piece of sh1t who is willing to cheat on her.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

in a text he asked her to meet up for sex. my wife didnt encourage it but also didnt say no nor stop talking to him, she made it into a joke. this was before the second rome trip.

im going to let his wife know. she deserves to know shes married to a piece of sh1t who is willing to cheat on her.

Strength and God speed to you william

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

this will be the second husband we out. the first was exchanging nude pics and graphic sexual emails with my wife.

it sucks. but if it were me, id want someone to tell me.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, June 4th (Wednesday)

Still thinking about you william. How goes the battle and how are you?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, June 9th (Monday)

ive had to take a break from our other night talks about her affairs. it went from a roller coaster to a straight downward trip. so for about a week and a half i avoided them. however, we start them back up again tonight.

i take drops that flatline me emotionally when i feel like im going to crash. i take pills to sleep. i have vivid nightmares and mind movies. i trigger alot.

other than that life isnt too shabby


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, June 9th (Monday)

I am happy to hear that you were at least able to take a little bit of a break for yourself.

i take drops that flatline me emotionally when i feel like im going to crash. i take pills to sleep. i have vivid nightmares and mind movies. i trigger alot.

I'd give you one of those fake huggy thingy's but that wouldn't have any solace for you.

You need to get some relief from that PTSD my friend. I know your sitch with IC so easier said than done. I bought a pair of PTSD self help books yesterday. I've felt stronger lately so my mind movies have calmed down a bit, but still happen from time to time. It's when I'm run down and an emotional mess is when they kick into overdrive. Which is what you are experiencing. I'll get to those books soon and let you know if they were worth the money or not.

How's your DD doing in all of this?


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
idealist
Member
Member # 9462
Default  Posted: 4:33 PM, June 9th (Monday)

Hi William,
I hope things went well today (pretty late in Italy right now). I noticed a few things that might be interesting to point out so I'll take a shot.

Have you ever heard of attachment theory? The idea is that our earliest caregiver relationships form powerful neural circuits in our brains that shape how we relate to others even as adults. You sound like an "avoidant" attachment style. Your wife's hellish childhood sounds like she is primarily an "ambivalent" with "disorganized" as well. All of those IDK and ICR? When a child is faced with intolerable situations and no healthy coping mechanism they will "cope" by compartmentalizing what is too painful/overwhelming. This habit, too, forms powerful neural circuitry and can become a habit even when an adult. There is "implicit" memory of the painful events but it is held out of consciousness. Here is a basic overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory

It would not surprise me, based on your descriptions, if your wife were diagnosed a "borderline." The relationship dynamic (or, core relationship pattern) you describe is a classic avoidant-borderline pattern. The reason she demonized you is to maintain her (perceived, but false sense of) self identity. Classic borderline. She acts on instinct (out of the chaos of her childhood) and then "reverse engineers" a logical explanation for whatever behavior felt good at the time.

We lived in Germany too, for years. Deutschland ist wie eine zweite "Zuhaus" für mich. Leider bin ich auch mit einem "borderline" verheiratet. I know the pain and confusion. I'm sorry, William. Take care of yourself and your daughter. Good luck, man.


Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Southern California
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 3:42 AM, June 10th (Tuesday)

hi idealist,

i am not sure if borderline sums up my wife although i have considered it and both bipolar.

when i first met my wife i am pretty sure (looking back now) that she was in a manic mode. always wide awake with very little need for sleep and basically she ran me ragged trying to keep up with her little need for sleep (maybe 2-3 hours a night, max). this phase lasted for quite awhile (many months) and i thought it was "normal" for her - ive known people who need very little sleep before and others who seem to need more ... so i thought little of it at the time. she was lots of fun, always cheerful, always wanting or prepared to go out and to do "something", and very highly sexed (wanting ALOT of sex - which also struck me as "normal" because it was a "new" relationship and its not rare to suddenly start to have lots of sex with someone when the relationship first becomes sexual). we also had sex VERY quickly after meeting each other, we practically raced into bed. she used to tell me that she slept at my place while i was at work when we first met to make up for the lost sleep but i found out later that it was very rare that she did so.

one thing i did notice off the bat was that she had some weird people in her life.
- a guy in scotland that she had been messaging with before she met me who "fell in love" with her, wanted to move to germany to be with her, and then got threatening. she couldnt really explain HOW this situation occured and said she was only being friendly in chatting with him and nothing else (not flirting, etc) but wanted my help in getting out of it and dealing with him.
- a musician that flat out told her that he had a girlfriend, that he had women in other countries that he saw when there on tour, and that he wanted her to be his "italy and germany girl". she agreed. she would go see the shows, spend the night listening to him moan about how bad his life was, have sex with him, and then go on with life until he came back on tour the next time. she swore at the time that this was all "normal". shortly after we met she went to go see him, stayed in his hotel room overnight, lied to me about where she stayed, confessed that she had spent the night in his roomwhen i told her that it would be easy to get hotel camera footage through my previous employerm but STILL swears there was no sexual activity at that time. a few months later she sent him semi nude photos. i almost broke up with her over it (we were only starting to get serious about each other when all of this was going on. she swore to no contact with him after i confronted her. she broke no contact not long before she went on her 2 year streak of cheating on me. now she "sees" how messed up this relationship was but for a long time i was the "crazy one" for seeing this relationship as being nothing more than a sexual toy and extremely unhealthy.
- her list of ex boyfriends and things about them also seemed odd. the one she gave her virginity to (in a bad sexual 1st experience) blamed her for how bad the experience was so she decided to "get good at sex" and "practiced" with a friends with benefits type relationship in university. another ex bf used to spit on her while having sex. another, from what she said, seemed crazy. alot of stuff she told me made me feel that she had a history as a bad "picker" of guys. i was the "normal" one and frankly im not all that normal (former special operations capable unit in the USMC with extensive direct action mission experiences, executive high risk protection jobs for almost 20 years, a stint in a private military company, etc - it left me a little paranoid of those around me to say the least and wary of everyone with low trust).
- a very odd and dysfunctional relationship with her parents and brother that seemed to consist of sharing the most personal of details and/or extremely loud and aggressive arguing between everyone. but ... i figured different cultures and different ways of dealing with things (in germany they definitely act different than americans so maybe this is the norm in italy .. neh?).
- there are others but those are the ones that spring to mind.

then after a few months she went into a more "normal" sleep pattern. she seemed calmer, and i put it all down to just a phase. we had a more or less normal relationship with ups and downs. i did notice that she had a very difficult time forming boundries. a guy at her job made a pun on a nickname for her that basically called her "big tits". she didnt like it but didnt stop it either. she would get sucked into other peoples problems, issues, and try to help ... she couldnt seem to just leave their problems as theirs. in some ways it was disturbing while in other ways it seemed very altruistic and was something i admired about her - a very loving and gentle heart. for about 8 or 9 years this was her.

what i did NOT know was that she was lying to me/concealing things from me from day 1. a guy she had been flirting with before she met me, she stayed in contact with him throughout our relationship albeit without flirting. she would hide things - for instance if a "friend" flirted with her - from me. she always seemed very honest and upfront with me. i, a very suspicious guy, was completely fooled.

in our talks she kept referring to feeling "over excited". i didnt understand what was meant by that and she tried to give me a physics explanation of atoms bouncing around. when i didnt get that she told me "hyper active", when i asked for more details she described her feelings. feeling her mind racing, inability to sleep, feeling extremely sexual (she pursued long term affair guy for many months to get him to accept her phone number, she tried to seduce him sexually, she did seduce him sexually, saw the whole thing as a game, told herself that she must be in love with him, saw winning his love as a game, and then when she got his love ... she lost interest in him and he became repulsive to her), she talked alot, started to drink very heavily during the day and kept a buzz going almost all day long, became very sure that her plans were the best and the only way to go on anything, etc. while this was going on she also became increasingly bitter and angry towards me - no matter what, everything was my fault. i didnt see her mania side, all i saw was her screaming abuse at me, telling me how terrible i was, going out with her "friends" (actually to see her long term affair guy) - she even hid how little she was sleeping from me (sometimes coming home and "sneaking out" at 4 am to go see LTA guy, laying awake all night, telling me she was sleeping at her parents to get an extra hour or two of sleep before work when actually she wasnt, etc). i had no idea of any of it. i just knew our relationship was rapidly dying. i was considering divorce very strongly and was moving towards that direction because of the verbal abuse, the neglect of our daughter and me, and her telling me that she didnt love me anymore and that i had "never loved her". i didnt know this but she was also demonizing me to ANYONE that was willing to listen to her.

her "over excited" feelings started around fall 2011 and continued onwards until spring of 2012. one of her two one night stands (the other occured several months before these feelings started), her LTA guy, and all of her sexting/nude photos and stuff occured during this time.

it sounds alot like this was another manic episode to me.

its important to note though that her first one night stand occured before these feelings of "over excitement". she was angry at me, decided that she had enough of "my shit", flirted with the guy positive that nothing would happen except a distracting flirt, wound up in the car alone with him, and then "without thinking about it" ... wound up having sex with him. she says now she felt very guilty about it afterwards and almost told me a few times but obviously never did. the rest of her affairs and crap - she says now that at the time she never once thought of me and felt no guilt or remorse while doing them.

then a switch seemed to flip in her head. spring came. she didnt want LTA guy anymore and didnt even like him. it took her a month or so to get out the relationship though. she demonized him to her friends. she "rehabilitated" me to her friends and told them that she wanted to be with me again.

around the spring she also fell into a very dark mood. possibly depressive. she sent me a text one time saying she wanted to commit suicide. but also there was alot going on in her life in other things that werent going well either. maybe a depressive cycle or maybe just being very down from the other stuff. again, i cant tell.

we talked and agreed to try to save our marriage. i got 6 months of trickle truth, when i threatened to divorce her if i didnt get the truth, she finally admitted the truth - in bursts. at first she was very defiant to match what truths she was telling me
- "i had an emotional affair, nothing was wrong with it, and i dont regret it"
- "i had an affair with LTA guy, we had sex, you are trying to make me feel bad about it, i didnt do anything wrong, and i dont regret it"

i endured so much justifications, blame shifting, minimization, etc that i still get thinking about it all.
but then, like a boom, came remorse. now she feels intensely ashamed and guilty. her feelings dont focus on her but instead on what shes done to me and our daughter. it sure seems to be real remorse rather than regret. she says now that she was like a wild feral animal. her remorse has only grown. shes telling me the truth about everything (even from years ago that id never had discovered on my own), shes agreed to (and to the best of my knowledge following "no contact" with LOTS of people), is being open/transparent, etc.

she sleeps alot more now, in fact she tends to go to bed much earlier (10 or 11) and is often tired during the day. i wonder if its a depressive stage or not. i dont know. i dont know because i know she feels down but does she feel down because she F'ed over her family and herself which is normal or does she feel down because shes in a depressive cycle? i cant tell.

she has been in intensive psychotherapy in the past. she concealed alot from her psychotherapist (including all mention of all behavior related to the mania phase) although she did mention LTA guy and that she wanted a divorce (therapist recommended a lawyer to her who she went to see but never actually filed for a divorce during her ?mania? phase).

i majored in psych in university. i didnt study much abnormal though. i dont know much about this stuff other than the intro course that we were required to take. i "thought" that borderline cycles extremely quickly through moods - sometimes within minutes. bipolar, on the other hand, has long slower cycles that sometimes can last months or even years.
in some ways she fits both catagories with the mood changes, her behavior, etc.

i dont know which scares me more -> that there is a major psychological illness that has to be dealt with (and both bipolar and borderline are serious as can be) or that she doesnt have anything "wrong" and that she was capable of acting like this and doing all of this completely on her own (and yes, i know that even if she does have either or something else that she STILL is responsible for her actions and choices). either is terrifying for completely opposite reasons.

but for me this is all uncharted waters. its, again, terrifying stuff. i dont know if her two periods of lack of sleep were "manic phases" or just how she was/is. she swears she never "cheated" in our marriage until late 2011-early 2013 but jeez ... she sure made up for it during that time period . maybe it was the one off "weird period" or maybe its some sort of cycle. i just dont know.

once we get through the system in italy and are able to get to the counseling i intend to see that

1: that she describes her manic like mood and what she was doing (alcohol abuse, sexual activities, lack of sleep, etc) during that time as well as her depressive moods so the therapist has access to all vital information.

2: i have access to her counselor and what is said in therapy.

3: that if she is diagnosed that she takes any and all medicines given to her as prescribed.

how did you discover your wifes condition? is she getting treatment? has the treatment eliminated, controlled, or partially, or not all controlled the condition? are you still married?

yes, i love germany too. there are WAY too many bad things (triggers, bad feelings, people she was involved with inappropriately, and her crappy family) for us to stay here in italy. we are planning on moving back to germany ASAP.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:02 AM, June 10th (Tuesday)

@ YOP

my daughter is doing pretty well. shes got no idea what happened in the past. all she knew was that mommy was always mad and not home very often. shes been heavily shielded from what was going on. now shes quite happy that mommy is home more, not going out at night, and isnt mad anymore.

there are some issues i see. my daughter doesnt particularly "trust" that mom wont start going out again in the future - shes gotten clingy as a result. she also has learned/ is learning to guilt trip mommy with "you are never home" to get her way. shes also got some anger issue with me - why i dont know. perhaps she blamed me for mommy being out at night, its hard to tell. i cant get a straight answer.
but overall, shes doing well. i can see her getting more and more trusting, more accustomed to mommy and i being "loving", doing more together as a family, etc. shes a bright girl. im sure she knew something was wrong but didnt know what. its going to take awhile for her to recalibrate.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Sending hugs to you and your DD william.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, June 10th (Tuesday)

but overall, shes doing well. i can see her getting more and more trusting, more accustomed to mommy and i being "loving", doing more together as a family, etc. shes a bright girl. im sure she knew something was wrong but didnt know what. its going to take awhile for her to recalibrate.

This is all really good news. It's amazing what kids pick up on. Even when things are discussed out in the open they can still pick up on the overall energy and feelings in the house. I've noticed this with my own children.

she sleeps alot more now, in fact she tends to go to bed much earlier (10 or 11) and is often tired during the day. i wonder if its a depressive stage or not. i dont know. i dont know because i know she feels down but does she feel down because she F'ed over her family and herself which is normal or does she feel down because shes in a depressive cycle? i cant tell.

I can't help but still worry about your wife. Her up bringing, her history, she has a lot going on there. Getting sleep is a huge thing though to keeping out of a manic cycle. She very well may be depressed but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's one of the manic cycles. I hope not anyway. I think she knows the damage she has done to you and DD. Like many of the WW's over in that forum I'm guessing she has remorse and part of that remorse is taking a hard look at the destruction. Anyone who has any sense of what is right will know how wrong they were when they have destroyed their loved ones. Hopefully she's not getting wrapped up in her own self pity and is still carrying the weight as needed.

yop


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
idealist
Member
Member # 9462
Default  Posted: 11:15 PM, June 10th (Tuesday)

Hi again William,
No matter what the reason, I am glad that you and your daughter are enjoying some respite from all that drama and chaos. My intent in the initial post was to point some things out that you may not have considered. But it seems that indeed you were ahead of me. Nonetheless I offer a few more thoughts.

There are a number of studies and clinicians placing Borderline Personality Disorder on the bipolar spectrum of affective disorders. Moreover, BPD is generally accepted to be co-morbid with (occurring at the same time in the patient)Bipolar II in between 40% and 60% of cases. Right now it seems that that genetic factors predispose people in that direction but many are not exposed to the environmental factors your wife was.

but then, like a boom, came remorse. now she feels intensely ashamed and guilty

I ran this story past a few professionals over the telephone in the last few hours. Not one buys it. It's not that she can't change but what is the etiology? We are creatures of narrative (episodic memory) and how has the narrative changed? I urge you to await your visit to a therapist, and make sure it's one with experience with cluster B disorders.

Final, and maybe most important comment. What about you, William? What do you feel? What do you want from your life? I skimmed all six pages of this thread and I notice that in all of your posts you are focused on your wife, but not yourself. Time to take care of William. This will not come naturally to you. But THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW.

former special operations capable unit in the USMC with extensive direct action mission experiences

Total respect, brother (I was a pilot). But that background of service will not be conducive to what I think is important now - you and your daughter. In fact, I think that in the long run it is best for your wife if you act such that you not give yourself away. Check out Robert Glover's book, No More Mr Nice Guy - may or may not fit, just a shot.

Regards


Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Southern California
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 3:48 AM, June 11th (Wednesday)

thanks idealist,

id not considered that it was possible to have both. ive not had anything to do with the psych field in roughly 20 years so its all "vague" memories to me.

we are slowly winding our way through the italian health care system bureaucracy. when we get there ill make sure she sees someone familiar with cluster B disorders. she wants to go to therapy so seeing someone isnt an issue.

the remorse came.
in june 2013 she lied to me and claimed she had an EA "only" with a few kisses. she was VERY defiant about it. i hadnt found this site yet so without knowing what i was doing i agreed to sorta rugsweep it.
when we had an unplanned pregnancy (which was terminated) it caused fractures in our false reconciliation. things didnt get as bad between us as they had during 2011-2012 but they werent good either.
a few months later, in january 2014 we sat down to talk about "us". i had found this site by then so i was prepared. i demanded the full truth and gave 1 week to get it. i got it and it was alot more than i had bargained for or thought would be coming. it was like projectile vomit in a way.

she had regret, in some ways, but no remorse. mixed in was defiance and anger.

i asked her questions.
- how did she feel when her parents used to bring addicts, pedophiles, and other messed up people into the house to be around them as children. how was her bringing an alcoholic boyfriend into the house and exposing our daughter to him any different? she hadnt considered it that way and finally had to admit that exposing our daughter to these people was in now way different than her parents exposing her and her brother to these people; it rocked her to her core.
- would it be okay for our daughters husband to one day "cheat" on her? if not, why was it okay for her to cheat on me? she couldnt crap a good justification for why it was okay for her but wouldnt be okay for him.
- had she asked me if i thought it was okay for her to F other people or have a boyfriend while married to me? what did she think i would have said? if she didnt ask me and i didnt know = it was her choice and thus 100% on her and i had 0% blame for her actions.
- that she said i didnt help her when her mom was dying ... lets set aside that she had already F'ed 2 guys by then and was actively pursuing a 3rd (lta guy) + sexting several others ... but that the day she first asked me for help was also after months of screaming at me (that she didnt love me, i had never loved her, that i was a failure, and lots of other choice words), choosing to avoid the house/me/our daughter and emotionally detach from us, etc. why should i have helped her after months of her rejecting/verbally abusing/and neglecting me and our daughter, would she have done the same for anyone else? she finally had to admit that she wouldnt have.

ive been through deflection, blame shifting, rug sweeping, minimization, etc. the remorse arrived after WEEKS of questions like those above and discussions.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=519502

was the original thread and goes through D-day 1-4.. its VERY long. but it details much of the arguements, discussions, etc that we had that finally "i think" snapped her head out of her ass and out of her fog. i think this is etiology you were asking about.

obviously i have no idea if her remorse it real. it looks real. but then again, i know something i didnt know before -> my wife is capable of looking me in the eyes, telling me something while looking completely sincere, acting as if it were completely true and even behaving as if it were true while knowing its not true and that she is acting another way entirely behind my back. in other words i know that i cant trust her words and that even her actions are suspect. i thought i was good at spotting liars but have come to accept that i can NOT tell if she is lying.

what i do know is
- that if she tells me she is at A then she is there. i can check.
- that she isnt going out at night anymore. at all. that she is only be going to work and then coming home and that it appears that she is actually working while at work (although it is possible that some guy comes by her work to see her because she did have several of her guys come by work to see her during her 2 year period and there is no real way i can verify this isnt happening although i believe its not).
- that she dropped her friends, closed her facebook account, got rid of her chat applications on her phone, changed her phone number, deleted and blocked everyone that wasnt work related from her email accounts, allowed me full access to all of her accounts (that i know about - i conceed its possible she has secret ones and that i wont ever be able to know if she does or doesnt because they would be on a work computer that i dont have access to), appears to be transparent, etc. is it all true? i THINK so. can i be 100% sure? no. can anyone ever be 100% sure of anything? i cant even be 100% sure the sun comes up tomorrow because a super nova is always possible, i know thats a bit of hyberbole but it does mean that i think but will never be 100% sure.
- she "says" she isnt drinking during the day. i "think" shes telling the truth. i look closely. i dont see any evidence of it or anything that makes me suspect its true. ive never been a heavy drinker nor did i ever think she was, at home she was always a very light drinker (we share a beer or drink a glass of wine with a meal maybe). shes now being very careful of what she drinks and how much and says shes seen what its like to crawl inside of a bottle and NEVER wants to do that again.
- shes establishing boundaries and asks me what i think of boundary A or was what she did in example X okay. we discuss it. her boundaries are becoming alot better. one thing that does worry me is that she says she sees she had crappy boundaries before and that shes scared that they arent good enough/strong enough yet so shes chosing to hide from the world (in a way). if someone lives in a sterile environment they get sick as soon as they come out into the "real world" and im afraid that her hiding herself from the world isnt healthy for her, that it leaves her just as unprepared, and that eventually she will blame/resent me for being "locked away" (although it was her idea, not mine).

i agree that my background of service actually is definitely NOT conducive to deciding whats best for me and my daughter. loyalty is ingrained into me, it defines me. in a way i "know" that she "broke faith" with me but just because she decided to break faith doesnt allow me to - it violates my code of honor. writing that out makes it sound stupid but ultimately it is what it is. shes accepted she did wrong, shes trying to fix herself and the damage she has done to me and our daughter, shes taking steps to ensure that it never happens again. she has agreed to a legal agreement that will be drawn up in the next months by lawyers that if she ever commits ANY infidelities or behaves inappropriately again that she forgoes all claims to custody of our daughter and gives me complete legal custody. if she cheats again ... i take our daughter and leave her; i am NOT prepared to go through this again. i guess my loyalty allows her to screw me over in a big way 1x (i sorta mentally lump it all into big screw me over rather than lots and lots of little ones) but wont tolerate it twice, i guess my loyalty does have limits.

as to what i feel and want. tricky. i have many conflicting wants and feelings. some clearly impossible.
- i want the woman i married to be the woman i married and the one that she appears to be now instead of this alien creature that she was for about 2 years. i love that woman with all my heart while i cant stand the one she became during these two years (ignoring the affairs but just the self justifications to do whatever at the expense of her family, the pure selfishness and self centeredness, the anger, the greed, etc). its hard to know if shes acting "now" and when i first met her or if this was some sort of episodic manic phase - knowing that is vital to knowing what i am dealing with.
- i do NOT want to have my daughter with only one parent. i was dating a woman long before i met my wife. we had a son. we broke up. i still see my son (albeit not enough) BUT not having me around in a regular parental role HAS damaged him in many ways, some very serious. i can see it. i dont want to do that to my daughter too. i failed my son and hurt him and although i know there wasnt much alternative to breaking up with his mom ... it still is something i didnt do lightly and now am fighting hard to not do AGAIN to my daughter. i am willing to deal with some measure of crap to try to ensure my daughters life isnt damaged. however, i also am not willing to let my daughter get damaged by my wife.
- i want a happy marriage with my wife. one in which i can trust her. yet i know that i wont ever be able to trust her 100% again. ever. thats a harsh concept for me. i still cant look her in the face and tell her i dont trust her, i look at the floor or to the side when i say it. it rips me apart to know ill never be able to trust her.
- i want my wife healed of whatever is wrong with her and am willing to help however i can. maybe its examining her FOO issues or maybe her emotional status or maybe dealing with a serious mental illness. i am not, however, willing to put myself or my daughter at serious risk. if i see history repeating im out of here. ive been there, done that, and wont do it again.
- i am struggling with some serious issues myself. i shoved alot of the stuff i did in the Corps into a not so little box. my wifes affairs ripped that box open. the military/VA machine has told me they cant help me in italy. period. i need help too. i cant take pills and drops to hide my issues forever. i cant go through nightmares of peoples heads exploding or my wife endlessly repeating "lets get into the backseat" until i wake up a sweaty trembling mass of nerves. so i want to heal myself too.
- i want for none of this to have ever happened. that i wake up tomorrow and discover its been the most F'ed up dream possible - that when i tell my wife about it she laughs and tells me that it could never have happened and that its still 2011 and she has no idea how i could have dreamed all of this.

i know i love my wife. im willing to give her a chance. im not willing to give her another chance after this one, this is it. i want my daughter to have a mom but need to be sure that her mom doesnt damage her. i need to feel secure in a safe environment. i need to be able to sleep a night without pills or go a day with anti-depressant drops and not become nervous or panicked. i need a relationship in which my wife loves me, honors me, and is faithful - all things she swore to do and didnt. i need no more lies.

i dont know if what i want is compatible with what i need

[This message edited by william at 3:53 AM, June 11th (Wednesday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
stronger08
Member
Member # 16953
Default  Posted: 4:17 AM, June 11th (Wednesday)

Brother, there comes a time when you just have to give up counting on others to do the right thing. Your WW has some deep seeded issues that go way back, long before you even met her. And unless she confronts those issues herself, there is not much you can do for her or your M. In a relatively short time you have gone from what you thought was a brief EA to multiple sexual affairs, numerous sexting and photo sharing and many other illicit behaviors during your M. I have to say your story is most likely the worst case of TT I have ever read. That said, you really need to stop trying with your WW and concentrate on your own healing and issues. I'm afraid that what you think is a full accounting of what has transpired is only part of the actual story. Your WW is obviously suffering from some sort of a SA and your not qualified or able to fix her. If she is actually to the point of forgetting who she is giving blow jobs to, there is much, much more to her story and it doesn't look good for you, your D nor the M itself. My advice is to cut your substantial losses and work on yourself. As for your WW, well she needs to fix herself. You cant do it bro. I think you know that huh ?


You cant eat soup with chopsticks.

Posts: 5730 | Registered: Nov 2007
idealist
Member
Member # 9462
Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, June 11th (Wednesday)

Hi
A couple of clarifications might be in order:
1) I am not advocating that you stay with your wife or divorce her. Only you can know what's right for you. I also do not believe anyone else here on SI can know that for you.
2) The question I posed to the marriage and family therapists was whether they had seen someone who presented with the symptoms you wrote about (your wife) get healthy in a few weeks or months. That was the "no way" answer. I believe you that her behavior changed as you describe.

My advice is still to turn your focus to yourself and what you need right now and going forward. It's not easy for people like us to make that change, but it's important.

When "journalists" interview people after a tornado has ripped through their town they frequently repeat the same stories over and over. "I was in the basement over there when I heard the sound like a train. My neighbors car was up in that tree and we couldn't find our dog, etc..." They are processing what happened to them and it takes time. If you read through this thread it seems to me you might be doing something similar. Take your time to address and process this mess. The catalog of wounding events is horrible to read and I have my own catalog. But when you can, I think you need to get to know william as well as you can.

Good luck


Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Southern California
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, June 12th (Thursday)

hi idealist,

dont worry, i wasnt confusing what you were saying. i understood it.

you seem to be very well informed on this subject, and im not, so i thought more information would assist you.

i know that my wife went into this weird manic mood in fall 2012. little to no sleep. driving around the city for hours upon hours. seeing having sex and then winning the heart of LTA guy as a "game". hallucinating talking to her dead mother. incredible anger at me. believing that LTA guy and several other people were "perfect". feeling incredible amounts of energy and extremely sexual. beginning to have a serious drinking problem. an incredible lack of empathy for either me or our daughter - not even seeing the neglect or caring or else feeling guilty and then staying away even more. some incredibly bizarre notes to herself in which she states things such as "i want to go to a hotel with you and sit in a jacuzzi with you" that in the next note she says "sitting in the jacuzzi with the bubbles was so nice" - and now swearing it never happened ... this is an example but her notes are filled with episodes she swears never happened, bizzare rants, incredible hallucinations, statements of love for LTA guy that she NOW says werent real but were designed to talk herself into falling in love with him, etc.

she started to come out of it in early spring 2013. it took her 1.5 to 2 months to extricate herself from all of her affairs, sexting, etc. she broke up with LTA guy. she cut contact way down to almost nothing. she did it on her own and without me knowing. at the same time, she also quit drinking during the day and to excess - cold turkey (and again without my knowledge that she even had a problem or was stopping).

she become suicidal during mid to late spring 2013 (sent me a text msg about considering it and even discussed it).

in early summer 2013 we entered false R. she told me that during the winter she had an EA with some kissing. this was a surprise to me. i was hurt, sad, angry, etc. all the reactions to an affair. we rugswept it after some arguing. she did agree to NC and blocked LTA guy.

during our false R:
- she kept in contact with many of the people she had exchanged pics with. she told them she was serious about her marriage, stopped sending pics, but also didnt stop their sexual banter towards her. she basically ignored it.

- she went to see ONS 2 guy to get him to finish her tattoo in august, she says she gave him a ride home afterwards from the studio but "cant remember ever getting out of the car but cant swear she didnt and doesnt remember much" such as if she went into his house, had sex again, etc.

- she drastically cut going out to where it was rare and when she did she didnt stay out long, it slowly became less and less. she DID go out to a concert with a "friend" who knew of her LTA, knew the guy, and met up with other people involved (a co-worker of his for example). however, she also stayed pretty far away from them there and tried not to talk to them.

so in a way i can see that during our false R she was trying to distance herself but not succeeding and was at a high risk of getting involved in more of the "same old activities".

after an unplanned pregnancy and procedure to end it she and i became more distant. we hadnt addressed ANY of the problems, just hid them.

in jan 2014 we talked again about committing to our marriage. i was better prepared (TY SI). i demanded the truth. i gave her 1 week to get it. that night and with great anger, blameshifting, justifications, and minimization, etc she admitted that LT EA was really a PA and had been very serious with much sex, a relationship, etc. the next night she admitted that he had been in our house but minimized what they had done here drastically.

a few nights later she admitted to sexting guys. at that time she estimated about 5 or 6 (the number is actually closer to about 10 or more - depending on whether ONS guys or LTA guy are added to the number or not). again, i had no idea.

a few nights later she admitted to 2 different ONS with 2 different guys. one during this manic phase and one several months before. i have, much later, discovered that its possible that she had sex with ONS 2 guy (tattoo guy) more than once - she doesnt think so but "cant swear she didnt". again, i had no idea and this blew me away.

however, she deleted most of her emails, texts, chats, and messages before i ever saw them. the ones i have found are "bad enough". i would NEVER have found out about ONS guy 1 and 2 or the sexting if she hadnt told me. i "probably" would have discovered LTA guy was actually a PA affair. i wasnt going to "drop it" and would have worked at it until i knew.

after her confessions we discussed, argued, screamed, etc - everything everyone in this position does. her default position at first was "no guilt" and justifications. over a period of weeks she shifted to feeling regret but not remorse. over the next few weeks that became remorse. slowly, very slowly that remorse has grown.

its possible that ONS 1 guy set off a "shame cycle". she felt very guilty. began to demonize me afterwards to EVERYONE (again without my knowledge). started to go out more. started to feel she "deserved to be happy" and that i wasnt making her happy.

so a manic phase of 6 months, a snapping out phase of about 2 months, a depressive stage of about 2 months ... and then not remembering much of what happened during the manic phase.

of course, its also possible that after telling me the "big stuff" that the ICR and IDK is bullsh1t. its also possible its true. why tell me the worst but then deny me the rest? she swears this was the only time she ever cheated during our marriage or relationship. i DO know that she lied about her relationships with some people but that the relationships werent sexual or even an EA - just inappropriate (hiding that this guy and her had been flirting before we met but that she lied about this and said he was just a friend and then maintained contact with him).

is this sort of stuff normal in a borderline or bipolar? i mean ... i have no freaking idea if she just "snapped", if its a "disorder", or if the other stuff is just unrelated to what she did. her mom did die during this time and the hallucinations of her mom could be normal because of the FOO issues.

can you at least give me a heads up on whats "normal" for a bipolar or borderline?


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
idealist
Member
Member # 9462
Default  Posted: 12:13 AM, June 13th (Friday)

Hello William,
I hope you and your daughter are enjoying at least some of the pleasures of Italy in early summer, before the heat comes. It was the best time for me to be there and sometimes, when things are just right, Southern California reminds me of those times in my life. Limoncello, anyone?

Sir, I am gonna do my best but a message board cannot substitute for professional care. The disclaimers usually read, "for entertainment purposes only." There is no lawyer looking over my shoulder but I honestly do not want to lead you away from personalized attention. That's what is called for here. I write in the spirit of a friend exchanging opinions and observations, not more. I hope that's OK?

First, I understand your need to want to know what the hell is happening with the girl you fell in love with. I am gonna try. But at some point, don't you and your daughter count too? This is my preface. You and your daughter are more important to me than your wife is. Your wife deserves the dignity we accord all human beings and she is sick and there are "causes" - many beyond her control - for her behavior. Compassion is in order here. But she doesn't get to do this to you and your daughter. You, William, are the critical line of defense.

If someone were running towards one of your clients with a machete, what would you do? Analyze his possible childhood problems? Ask people near you if he has been depressed? Or would you first protect the client and sort the rest out later. Even if he cut off the attack and merely stood by menacingly, would his problems eclipse the clients?

I don't think there is a "normal" for someone suffering bipolar/borderline disorder. There are commonalities between patients and presenting symptoms, but I think it's a mistake to seek a normative explanation for a patients behavior. Are you possibly trying to fit her behavior into a narrative thread that includes self-healing and a return to normalcy? I would not encourage that line of thought. There is healing for her, but I am not aware of it being easy or quick even for the best cases.

Your fist highlight, which begins with, "i know that my wife went into this weird manic mood in fall 2012...." I would recommend inpatient treatment for these symptoms.

But, you are cataloging events which reveal symptoms that have already been covered. I am so very sorry for the pain this must cause you. Her situation is already on the table. It won't matter how much we know about her - more about her won't help you. I, and I think all the people here on SI, would be more interested in how those things have affected you and what we can do to help you live with what you have been through.

I hope the bureaucracy comes to your aid soon. In the meantime, perhaps ask yourself why you persisted in the face of these insults. What does she mean to you? Have you felt that way or needed to feel that way in the past?

Focus on you and your daughter. That's first. Her drama is sucking blood from your family. That can't continue. The airline video always says, "first place the oxygen mask around your mouth, then the child's"

Good luck


Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Southern California
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:45 AM, June 13th (Friday)

idealist -

i understand what you mean. ill take it with a grain of salt

im not really trying to fit my wife's previous behavior over the 2 year period into a narrative. i didnt know that she had been lying to me about her relationships with other people and remaining in contact with many of them during our relationship. but excluding that she "seemed" honest, smart, nice, with a good heart, loving, and ... a good person. i can very clearly NOW see that she is/was a severely damaged person inside. what im trying to figure out if her morph into a serial adultress that abandoned me and our daughter is something that i have to deal with or is part of a much more serious problem involving serious mental illness. to me finding this out is very, very critical.

if i saw someone running at me with a machete ... i see what you mean. but i dont know if shes dropped the machete with hands up or is still carrying a weapon i cant see. in effect im watching her VERY closely to see. i have my guard up. i guess my options are to leave her or not. if she wasnt showing remorse and becoming the person i thought i knew all those years ... i would have left already.

i have been married in the past and divorced. i divorced for a breach of trust that involved much less than this. why exactly i am still in this marriage ... because i love my wife. i love her with all my heart. even still. although i feel so angry, hurt, and betrayed by her ... i still love her. enough to give her one last chance. one chance to not F up ... on her. a chance in which i watch her, evaluate her actions and not just her words, and dont accept anything less than total honesty and openness from her. if she blows this ... although it would break my heart, i would take my daugther and leave with sadness but not regret. does that make sense?

one thing i am doing is watching out for my daughter as well. the legal agreement that if she commits further infidelities of any sort (not just sexual) that gives me legal custody of our daughter is me looking after her. i refuse to put her more at risk. im furious at the risks my wife put my daughter in already (bringing LTA guy to the house to spend the night one night ... a few meters from my daughters room, introuding my daughter to multiple guys she was sexting and behaving inappropriately with ... as examples). if i see my daughter getting damaged by my wifes future behavior ... i take my daughter and i leave... with sadness but without regret.

my daughter and i do alot together. we play with her toys. we go to the park. we both love to skate and spend many hours a week doing it at a skating rink. we love music and dance together. im her primary care giver (i write books now and do that from home so i can be very flexible).

my daughter has some abandonment issues. when mom says shes going to do X my daughter and be back at Y time ... my daughter is suspicious. will she really be back then? why does she always have to go (even though my wife is actually only going out for work now and nothing else) out? she has bad dreams but none explicitly related to mom, her affairs, or me. she wants to sleep in bed with us everynight and its a struggle to keep her in her own bed (partly made worse by me spending most nights sleeping in the bed with our daughter when my wife wasnt even coming home AT ALL on a near daily basis so she would feel comforted; which has now created a problem of wanting to sleep with us ... or me ... which we had solved prior to this 2 year period and has reappeared in the last 6 months or so). shes also become much more clingy than before. more rebellious. part of that is probably the age. part a consequence of my wife's behavior. it makes me mad to know shes been damaged.

me. i feel very unsure.
i believe my wife when she says "i wont ever do this again" ... well, i believe she means it. i dont know if she can actually deliver on that promise because she certainly failed to keep the marriage vows one. so very uncertain if i can trust her. plus her lies, so many of them about almost everything. i watch her alcohol intake discreetly.
i dont know what i was told was a lie and what was real. im still trying to separate fantasy from reality in what i was told. i cant figure out how my wife flicked "love" and "hate" on an off like a switch. im scared it flicks again.
i have nightmares. an example - a friends head got hit close range to me and his brains wound up all across the front of my gas mask. i had to wipe them to even so .. it was so much. mixed in is my wife laying back on the car seat with her skirt up, this guy fingering her, and her saying "lets get in the back seat". i wake up in a panic. its taken sleeping pills for me to even fall asleep. i still dont sleep enough. i wake up loggy, exhausted, sad, and stressed.
i feel so much stress from wondering when and if she backslides. i am so angry that she hurt me so bad, betrayed my trust, and lied to me over and over about it. even when i asked she lied. she gaslit the hell out of me. that pisses me off. i am very sad that the life i thought i had was a lie. i dont know how stable of a future we can build without knowing "why" or "whats wrong with her". i take anti depressants to try to deal with on the worst days, on average or good days i dont take them. they emotionally flatline me and i hate taking them. i cant skate on them, they mess with my balance too much to do much on skates. so when i take them i cant take my daughter skating.
i cry alot. i broke down the other night and sobbed for almost an hour. pain just welling out my body. i hide this from my daughter. i put a smile on for her. i wait until shes in bed or hide in the bathroom "taking a shower" or "going to the bathroom" lest i upset her and make her even more afraid.

i love my wife. i stay with her despite always believing this would be a massive deal breaker. i have to struggle with redefining what i accept - because i "did" accept she did this and didnt leave. i dont feel shame but i do feel a serious WTF moment about still being here. its very hard for me to accept that i cant trust her. shes proven that. to say i cant trust her hurts me. i always believed trust was the foundation of a relationship. so now we need to rebuild trust in the midst of a relationship. its supposed to be the other way around. sigh.

when i first started getting the combat montage flashbacks i considered suicide. im past that now. im in for the long haul. no quitting on myself. but ... it really upsets me that my wife chose to shoot herself but it pisses the hell out of me that she chose to shoot me in the back too and hurt me too. i didnt ask for this. i didnt want to be pushed down this hole. the injustice of it ... grates.

my wifes doing all she can to make me feel safe NOW. i feel safer but not safe. i dont know if ill ever feel 100% safe again because i already know ill never 100% trust her again ... ever. sometimes i feel so many conflicting feelings that i just cant process them.

i cant comprehend how many people she betrayed me too (not just sexually but also emotionally or backstabbing, etc). we go over them every other night for a few hours. we are less than 1/5 of the way through the list. it feels like having vomit poured on me when i sit and listen to how bad i was F'ed over. but its better than not knowing. so i sit and get vomit poured on me. she does it gently but its still vomit. the worst people are yet to come so i get to anticipate even worse pain. there are so many people i cant even keep their names straight. how could someone demean themselves like this, for these F ups, and abandon those who really loved them in the process. its mind boggling.

im so full of stuff that ill let it stop here lest it become another novel...

is this the kind of feelings you were asking about?


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
redsox13
Member
Member # 43391
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, June 13th (Friday)

I am married to someone who is Bipolar. In retrospect I think I married her during an up phase in her cycle. Her affairs - of all types - tended to occur during what I now realize to be manic phases of her illness. There was almost a cycle over 20 months - mania, followed by depression. Sometimes during the depression I sensed remorse - but she did not stop on her own - only when I found out and confronted her.

People who are bipolar differ in their cycles. Some can cycle during a single day. It is a very difficult illness to deal with - and the medications have side effects that can be frustrating for the person suffering from the illness and for their spouse. Finding the right psychiatrist is critical.

Make no mistake - the illness does not excuse the affairs. Do not let her use the illness as an excuse. Understand, though, that the illness will be with her for the rest of her life.

[This message edited by redsox13 at 8:00 AM, June 13th (Friday)]


BS - 45
WW - 43
In R for 5 years, still hurting but finally letting go

Posts: 266 | Registered: May 2014 | From: nh
idealist
Member
Member # 9462
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, June 13th (Friday)

William,
Yes, that's what I was talking about.

I am sitting on a long conference call now, but I wanted to give a shout out to let you know I read your post.

It sucks, it really does.

Good luck to you and your family.

ETA:

how could someone demean themselves like this, for these F ups,

I have struggled with this myself for many hours. My FWW chose some total losers. She said it was because they adored her (validated her - my interpretation) and she had no intention of being with them long term.

[This message edited by idealist at 12:15 PM, June 13th (Friday)]


Everything can be taken from a man or a woman but one thing: the last of human freedoms to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Southern California
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:38 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)

we had another talk last night. none of them really rate a "number" on the list but just more generally inappropriate behavior.

a woman my wife found "attractive" (she says not sexually but because of her self confidence), contacted on facebook, chatted with off and on almost every week for months, and fantasized about having sex with her in a 3-some (with a guy we cover in a few days who was a guy she sexted with for almost TWO YEARS). this woman didnt know she was being fantasized about, she is a lesbian in a long term relationship. my wife did tell her she found her attractive and good looking and she told my wife the same back. but that was the extent of it. it did hurt because this took place some months before ONS 1 guy. so another one that took place before i thought. it also is the a woman instead of a guy which is different.

a guy in a band that my wife knew that she told all of her friends that she found him very attractive, sexy, and incredibly good looking. it was a running joke between them all for years. it made me feel like i had been disrespected all along for years and i wasnt amused.

a photographer friend of a photographer "friend" that wanted my wife to pose in nude soft porn photo shoots with another female - which my wife declined. of course if my wife hadnt been hanging around weirdos she wouldnt have been approached by this guy in the first place. sigh.

our next talk we discuss the guy that she had the longest running sexting with. sigh.

i alternatively lost my temper and cried last night. it just seems too much to bear sometimes. i feel like a small pat of butter being stretched over a really big piece of toast. its really hard. it feels like so many betrayals, so many knifes in the back, so much pain. i try to hold up but it seems to be never ending - the alternative is even worse ... to never KNOW the truth. its just a terrible sh1t sandwhich im being forced to eat.

my wife cried too. she said she would never do this stuff again and that shes telling me because she wants me to have the full truth. she says she will do whatever it takes to help me heal and to try to undo/repair/heal the damage that she has done. she held me. told me it wasnt my fault. that it was hers, all hers. that she was so stupid. i dont see how she could turn her love on and off. she says she loved me before, during, and now. she says that she was so angry at everyone, especially me. but that her anger wasnt why she did this. she says she doesnt know yet. she felt like a wild animal. i dont see how she could have loved me and done all of this. this wasnt love.

its so heart breaking.

she went to a tattoo parlor on her way home from work yesterday.
she is going to get the tattoo ONS 2 guy put on her arm covered.
one of the guys she was sexting with put tattoos on her ankles, she asked me if she should go removal, cover, or change them. we decided to change them.
shes also decided to remove the one she got on her stomach.
which is all very good. its pretty hard seeing them knowing the stories and actions behind them.

[This message edited by william at 3:56 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)

my wife cried too. she said she would never do this stuff again and that shes telling me because she wants me to have the full truth. she says she will do whatever it takes to help me heal and to try to undo/repair/heal the damage that she has done. she held me. told me it wasnt my fault. that it was hers, all hers. that she was so stupid. i dont see how she could turn her love on and off. she says she loved me before, during, and now. she says that she was so angry at everyone, especially me. but that her anger wasnt why she did this. she says she doesnt know yet. she felt like a wild animal.

Hi william, sounds like your wife's sense of empathy seems to be growing each time you go over this. As painful as a process this is for the two of you, I can see where both of you are emotionally growing as individuals and together. I still believe that you are going to come out the other side of this stronger. I also understand that the worst is yet to come for the ground that you are going to cover. Still, I choose to see positive signs here.

I really hope your wife spends the rest of her life appreciating what she has in you and your daughter and never forgets it.

i dont see how she could have loved me and done all of this. this wasnt love.

You're right. This was some sort of demented reality that was taking place in her head and she was acting it out. Know that it was not you.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, June 17th (Tuesday)

i try to focus on the positive but its hard sometimes to lose sight of that and get pulled down into a quagmire of depressive thoughts. the mind movies and nightmares are hellish.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, June 20th (Friday)

we sold the car today - the one that my wife used for her first one night stand. having that car gone is like a load of bricks removed from my back. it does make life difficult though because we do NOT want to buy another car while in italy. we got into a car share car program where we pay by the kilometer/minute instead.

my wife also has made 3 appointments to get the tattoo on her arm covered - the one made by ONS guy 2. in one way its going to be great to have that gone. in another ... her going to a tattoo place triggers me a bit because she messed around with TWO guys from tattoo parlors.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:52 AM, June 21st (Saturday)

I told my wife about how I felt relieved and happy that this tattoo would be gone AND worried about "another" tattoo parlor. She said I knew you would feel that way, that's why I got one close to home - so you can come too, if you want. I was surprised she had thought of it and that she had thought of it meant so much to me. It made me feel safe and like she really got it.

[This message edited by william at 1:53 AM, June 21st (Saturday)]


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, June 21st (Saturday)

Great post william. Sounds like your wife is really starting to get it and is very much thinking of you in her thought processes. Another positive.

Thanks for sharing.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

ive taken a break for a few weeks. i just didnt feel strong enough to dig into more, to hear more, to find out more. tonight ive started towards healing again.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 549 | Registered: Jan 2014
Schadenfreude
Member
Member # 43075
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Stay strong. From reading your many posts detailing your conversations with WW, you are getting stronger and more
settled with yourself.

Posts: 892 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Midwest
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Great to hear from you william! I was about to send out a search party if you went much longer. Good that you took a probably much needed break.

Sending you strength


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2200 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
Topic Posts: 128