SurvivingInfidelity.com Forums
General
User Topic: Rough day
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Concerned  Posted: 3:18 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Caught Crazz in a lie/boundary breach. Not sure where it lands on the scale but I'm definitely feeling that DDay ice water in the veins and heart. I know I've posted a lot about struggling with wanting to work on the relationship, but it still hurts like crazy, it turns out.

I'm going to go ride my bike and think about all the things I'm grateful for. If you have some spare mojo/prayers/good thoughts, I think I need a nudge this afternoon.

Thanks.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 3:19 PM, April 24th (Thursday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

((( Jrazz )))
I'm so sorry, hon.


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6597 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
justinpaintoday
Member
Member # 42858
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Jrazz: sorry for the rough spot. R is not linaer right? Keep moving forward but trust your gut and spidey senses. If something seems amiss weed it out. Riding your bike...thats something to be thankful for in itself. Your healthy and able to enjoy the outdoors.

Prayers and support


I never realized you could be in this much pain and not be dying.

Posts: 700 | Registered: Mar 2014
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 3:23 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

I've seen few on here work as hard as you do to make this work, to give leeway, to love as hard as you can...you're in my thoughts, sweetie, and I'm sending love and support as always.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38219 | Registered: Sep 2007
Mochagurl
Member
Member # 14660
Default  Posted: 3:24 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

((Jrazz)) Sorry. Ride your bike and trust your gut.


Me: BS-55
Him: WS-55
Married: 35 years
DD 36, DD 26, DS 22, DD 19
You can't start the next chapter of your life if you keep re-reading the last one.

Posts: 231 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Ohio
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

And yes, you're definitely in my thoughts.
Sending lots of healing mojo your way.
((( Jrazz )))


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6597 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 3:30 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

You are always so kind and giving. I hope your ride helps you sort things out.

Mojo and support heading your way.

[This message edited by karmahappens at 3:30 PM, April 24th (Thursday)]


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3850 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
dameia
Member
Member # 36072
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I will send prayers, good thoughts, and mojo your way.


Me: BS
D-Day: 7/7/12

Trust is like paper. Once it's crumpled it can never be perfect again.


Posts: 1179 | Registered: Jul 2012
LosferWords
Guide
Member # 30369
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

So sorry to hear of this. Sending lots of mojo and thoughts your way.


Posts: 7657 | Registered: Dec 2010
hopefull77
Member
Member # 43221
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

It is a beautiful day here in my part of California...get out and ride and feel the wind in your face!! In fact I think I'll
follow my own advice and get some needed Vitamin D myself...


me-BS
him-WS
3 adult children 1D 2S
married-1977
LTA 06-2010 - 11-2012
D-day - 11-11-2012
status - reconciling and very hopeful
"Let Go of Control; Let God's Life Flow" ...Richard Rohr



Posts: 642 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: sunny california
Teach8
Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

Two steps forward one step back? I'm so sorry you are hurting. I hope the bike ride helps to clear your mind and thoughts. Sending thoughts and strength your way.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 509 | Registered: Aug 2012
OnAnIsland
Member
Member # 34319
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

jrazz, sending you some good thoughts and wishes. i hope your bicycle ride helped you figure some things out. maybe formulate what you need to say and how to say it.

i am a huge believe in journalling it out too. i try to journal the things i have to be thankful for and the changes i see in mr. oai, and i journal when i can't figure out what to do or say. when something just isn't right but i haven't figured out how to address it yet.

thinking of you.


D-day: Christmas 2011
D-day 2: 3/28/2013

Married for over 15 years
2 beautiful boys in elementary school

You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. Maya Angelou


Posts: 1479 | Registered: Dec 2011
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Mucho mojo sent your way. You know what you need.

Strength

(((Jrazz)))


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3040 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
BreatheAgain10
Member
Member # 32657
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))
I hope that bike ride helps clear your head and gives you some peace. I know bike riding for me had been the best therapy for my health, asthma, and my soul. Riverside county has some awesome scenic trails. Hope they do in your part of Cali as well. I pray you feel better!


By God's blessing we've survived, but the scars are still tender to the touch.
BW: Me 34yrs FWH: 29yrs
Latest D-Day 04/29/2010
Together: 12yrs Married: 10yrs
DS:16yrs DS:9yrs. DS:Due 6/25/14
Main D-Day that hurts is #4 4/29/10
OW=Yuck!

Posts: 273 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: Sunny So. Cal.
tearingaway
Member
Member # 28618
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

You are in my thoughts, Jrazz. Sorry for the rough day.

Posts: 349 | Registered: May 2010
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

I just love you so much, I hate that you're going through this again. If my heart is breaking I can only imagine how you must be feeling


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198457 | Registered: May 2002
CheaterMagnet
Member
Member # 33581
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Sending you strength and peace.

I'm so sorry.


If Happy Ever After did exist, I would still be holding you like this.
All those fairly tales are full of shit.
One more fucking love song I'll be sick. ~ Maroon 5

Posts: 1039 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Kailua-Kona, HI
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 4:35 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Im sorry to hear this, honey.


(((((((Jrazz)))))))


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling?

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7756 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

I'm really sorry. (((((Jrazz)))))


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
HFSSC
Member
Member # 33338
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Aww, Sweetie. I'm sorry. This sucks.

Get some sun on your face and know that no matter what, you are okay.

(((Jrazz)))


Me, 47
Him, 40 (JMSSC)
married 17 years. In R. We are making it. The past does not define who we are today.

Posts: 2824 | Registered: Sep 2011 | From: South Carolina
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:46 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz))) big hugs hon...


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5989 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((((Spazzie Razzie))))))


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne


Posts: 6335 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Sending love, peace, strength - whatever you need.

And some hugs, ((((((((Jrazz)))))))


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Allornothing
Member
Member # 42354
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

You're always here for us, I'm glad that we can be here for you.

Sending prayers and strength.


Me- BS 43
Him- FWH 43
Married 19 years, Together 26
Kids- 23,21,15,14
D Day- 7 Sept 2013
OW- Irrelevant

Posts: 194 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Australia
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 5:09 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Thanks everyone. Vitamin exercise helps a lot. Gonna go pick up DD in a bit and that's always a boost too.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
AFrayedKnot
Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))


BS 40
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2647 | Registered: Aug 2012
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Thinking of you Jrazz. Hope your day gets better and everything turns out alright.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2225 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
metamorphisis
Administrator
Member # 12041
Default  Posted: 6:37 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Sending you love and strength my friend. Process it all and take care of you. We're here when you need us.



“We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.”... Anais Nin

Posts: 45048 | Registered: Sep 2006
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 6:42 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((((Jrazz))))

You're such a wonderful woman and mom and support. Have a good night with your DD. Hugs and strength.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Thanks everyone. We're an hour past promised check in call. Please keep the mojo rolling.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
mchercheur
Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz))) sending you strength


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1403 | Registered: Dec 2012
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Mojo continuing your way.

((((((((Jrazz))))))))


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Ugh! Today must be so frustrating. I hope that Crazz confides in you what is going on for him. Hopefully this is just a minor bump in the road, but you are so strong even though you may not feel it now. We all feel it through the way that you give to us. Whatever this is, you will get through it. You have all of us supporting you. Hang in…… Maybe you will feel better once you have a heart to heart.


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 660 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
nowiknow23
Guide
Member # 33226
Default  Posted: 8:09 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((((Razzie))))) Sending you more love than you can imagine.


You can call me NIK

"If you carry joy in your heart, you can heal any moment."
- Carlos Santana


Posts: 25850 | Registered: Aug 2011
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 8:10 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Praying for strength, mojo and peace ♥


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3850 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
jo2love
Moderator
Member # 31528
Default  Posted: 8:19 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))

Sending strength, hope, and love.


Posts: 36058 | Registered: Mar 2011
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Oh honey sending you so much strength and love.

((((JRazz))))


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2769 | Registered: Oct 2012
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

You are in my thoughts, Jrazz. Sending peaceful and serene thoughts to you. (((Jrazz)))


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9853 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Still sending positive mojo to you.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Whereas the evening did not end great with Crazz, I did suck it up and have DD call and say goodnight to him.(Did I mention he's traveling?)I will never ever let our issues come in the way of her relationship with him, no matter what crappy decisions he makes in regards to me.

The evening DID end well in that I got to hang out with my little raison d'etre, Vrazz. She's on a lot of asthma/allergy meds so she gets a popsicle when she finishes her evening ones. (They're pedialyte pops... shhhhh don't tell her! ) She also gets to choose a cartoon to watch while she does the nebulizer. Tonight we rocked out to Jem and the Holograms.

I can't tell you all what it means to have your support. There are too many details about what happened today and I'm reeling too much to type them out. I want to have a more centered post to share and I will later.

For tonight, I have your love and my daughter's and I feel good. Thank you all.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((Jrazz)))
I hope you have a peaceful night.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2081 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

You know you got all I have to give. I hope, well. I hope.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6582 | Registered: Jan 2011
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:05 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Thank you so much for your welcome back in the face of what you have going on.

Sending all my good thoughts and I hope that tomorrow brings better things for the both of you.

(((Jrazz)))


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Did you hear Jem and the holograms are making a new movie?!?

You have so much love and support coming your way. But if you need someone to junk punch Crazz, I'm sure that can be arranged.

I'm so sorry Jrazz. Big hugs coming your way.


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 597 | Registered: Dec 2012
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 11:12 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

918momma, I''ll hold your earrings and then you can hold mine. I have a wicked snap-kick!

Seriously, you know that you''re in my heart and in my prayers, luv. I''m praying that tomorrow is a better day for you. (((hugs)))


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4966 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
Rebreather
Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 11:17 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

OMG!! TG!! Hi!!

/tj


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6582 | Registered: Jan 2011
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:19 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

I appreciate where you ladies are coming from, but honestly I don't want to hurt him. Also we should take it easy because he is a member and it's one of my fondest hopes that he comes here someday for help.

I feel sorry for him. He had a childhood of judgement and confusion, and he learned to protect himself by lying, and to grab at good times where he can. There is a kindness in him, but when he feels a flicker of emotion other than anger he doesn't know how to process it and the flight response kicks in. He just wants to be happy, but he's a shitty partner along the way because he is completely devoid of empathy.

I don't know if any of this is making sense. I want us both to be happy, but we live in different realities, and the one he constructs around himself scares the crap out of me.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 11:22 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Oh Jrazz...

I couldn't like you more. To have that kind of compassion for him still...it's very admirable.

I hope you are able to work out a reality that you can both thrive in.


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 597 | Registered: Dec 2012
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:26 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Oh I'm no saint... I used up my next ten years worth of curse words in two texts and a short phone call tonight.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 11:42 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

**snort**

There's no emoticon for that. But that made me belly laugh Jrazz.

Hang in there friend. And if you need 'em, I can loan you some of my profanity! :-)


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 597 | Registered: Dec 2012
Chrysalis123
Member
Member # 27148
Default  Posted: 11:44 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Oh no.... I am so sorry to hear about this.


Don’t get to the end of your life and find that you lived only the length of it; live the width of it as well. 

Posts: 2729 | Registered: Jan 2010
knightsbff
Member
Member # 36853
Default  Posted: 11:44 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

(((((Jrazz)))))

Sending lots of prayers and mojo for you.

I know you will be ok. You're awesome like that! But I want to give you a hug anyway. ((((Another hug))))


FWW 40's
D-day August 27, 2012
3 kids and 2 dogs

I edit often because I make a lot of typos. ☺️


Posts: 1503 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Deep South, USA
ShellyShell
Member
Member # 42662
Default  Posted: 11:49 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

Girl those curse words were God's work! That's what the creator intended for him to hear. LOL! Your sainthood is preserved. :)

Hugs and laughs make everything better! Sending you both.


Posts: 95 | Registered: Mar 2014
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:57 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

t/j

HI Rebreather!!!!

end t/j



Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:59 PM, April 24th (Thursday)

I'll take all the hugs you can spare.

Can I just say that I'm getting lots of happiness that tired girl is posting on my thread?


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 12:05 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Ahhh Jrazz. I feel horrible that you are going through this again. As I know what you are feeling.

I was going to say earlier but wasn't sure if I should or not that I know exactly what you are talking about when you explained a little of what you are dealing with.

The desire to protect yourself in these situations can be strong. I am glad that you are staying so connected to your daughter.

Big hugs. I hope tomorrow he comes through for you.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 12:17 AM, April 25th (Friday)

I hope you manage some sleep tonight. Sorry you're going through this.

Posts: 1761 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 5:31 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Jrazz,

It's early morning here, even earlier there! I hope you were able to get some rest.

Sending love your way today.

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 6:26 AM, April 25th (Friday)

I read this and cried.

He had a childhood of judgement and confusion, and he learned to protect himself by lying, and to grab at good times where he can. There is a kindness in him, but when he feels a flicker of emotion other than anger he doesn't know how to process it and the flight response kicks in. He just wants to be happy

I so understand this.

(((hugs))) to you both. I know you are hurting.He is too, in a different, self-inflicted way, but still hurting.

You are so kind and generous to acknowledge his need for help too.

I pray he finds his way and the two of you can continue your healing.


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3850 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Coming back around to ya Jrazz

(((Jrazz)))


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2225 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
blackbirdfly
New Member
Member # 41131
Default  Posted: 7:30 AM, April 25th (Friday)

I haven't been around much, so I just saw this. I hope you're ok. I know that icy cold feeling all too well.

Tons of hugs and support and strength to you. Let me know if I can help at all.


Me: BW - 36
Him: WH - 38

Kids, yes.

Currently in Limbo, possible R. WH says he wants R. I'm not convinced.


Posts: 48 | Registered: Oct 2013
Williesmom
Member
Member # 22870
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, April 25th (Friday)

((Razz family))

Hang in there, J. Have faith.


You can stuff your sorries in a sack, mister. -George Costanza
There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women. - Madeleine Albright

Posts: 7781 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Western PA
SBB
Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Sending you love Jrazz. I barely believe in this Mythical thing called R but I am rooting for you guys.

No matter what happens you are going to be OK.


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5619 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
gahurts
Member
Member # 33699
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Hope today is a much better day and that you get through it together and that you feel the love of VRazz.


"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indominable will" - Mahatma Gandi

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - Aubrie


Posts: 3443 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Georgia
lynnm1947
Member
Member # 15300
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Hope you have found a little peace, Jrazz. Hugs and love.


Age: 64..ummmmmmm, no...............65....no...oh, hell born in 1947. You figure it out!

"I could have missed the pain, but I would have had to miss the dance." Garth Brooks


Posts: 7308 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Toronto, Canada
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Sending you loads of hugs and hopes that today is a better day.

((( Jrazz )))


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6597 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
itainteasy
Member
Member # 31094
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, April 25th (Friday)

I'm hoping today is a better day.

((((JRazz))))))


Posts: 3423 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: NWPA
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, April 25th (Friday)

Thanks everyone. Came straight here to collect hugs this morning. (Well, I detoured to the kitchen to assemble Miss Thang's pancakes and watermelon, THEN I came here.)


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, April 25th (Friday)

pancakes and watermelon

That's a new one! Extra syrupy hugs to you this morning if those are a thing.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, April 25th (Friday)

((((Jrazz))))
Hope today is better for you.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, April 25th (Friday)

"Pancakes and watermelon" I think I found my dinner for Grammy and DGD! Thanks for the dinner idea.

I hope today is better.

More hugs,
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, April 25th (Friday)

Today's ok. Wasn't as productive as I wanted to be, but the feeling in my chest is heavy. I have work tomorrow and my boogaloo's birthday on Sunday. Both are welcome distractions. I'm not a runner or a compartmentalizer by nature, but I think it's the way I'm going to have to do it this weekend to avoid getting overly emotional.

I have a counseling appointment on Monday which I am VERY much looking forward to.

Thanks to all who have sent PM's and fb messages and texts... I'm sorry if I haven't gotten back to you and I hope you understand. I will after this week.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 5:44 PM, April 25th (Friday)

(((Jrazz)))

I'm sorry I'm late to the thread, but I just saw this. I hope your weekend goes okay.


Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, April 25th (Friday)

Take the distractions and enjoy yourself. You dont need that heaviness on you so I for one am glad you will do something distracting.

((((JRazz))))


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2769 | Registered: Oct 2012
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 6:01 PM, April 25th (Friday)

(((Jrazz)))

Happy birthday to V - Watch out! She's gaining on you!


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
still2suspicious
Member
Member # 31722
Default  Posted: 6:01 PM, April 25th (Friday)

I am sorry you have hit a dip. Glad you have a weekend full of plans.

You are an amazing and thoughtful woman. You deserve whatever you need in life.

Sending strength.


Me: BS
Him: WH
DDay: LTEA

Posts: 1310 | Registered: Apr 2011 | From:
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, April 25th (Friday)

Sending strength, love, peace and birthday greetings to little razz.

Hugs for mama.

Kajem


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Amazonia
Member
Member # 32810
Default  Posted: 12:44 AM, April 26th (Saturday)

((Jrazz))


"You yourself deserve your love and affection as much as anybody in the universe." -Buddha
"Let's face it, life is a crap shoot." -Sad in AZ

Posts: 13813 | Registered: Jul 2011
tesla
Member
Member # 34697
Default  Posted: 10:22 AM, April 26th (Saturday)

Jrazz, I always enjoy reading your posts. They lift me up and make me laugh. I hate that you are having a rough time.
(((((hugs)))))
Sending you mojo and good thoughts.


"Thou art the son and heir of a mongrel bitch." --King Lear

Posts: 4697 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: Indiana
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, April 26th (Saturday)

((((Jrazz)))

Hugs for today. Hope it is going better.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, April 26th (Saturday)

((((Jrazz)))

Hugs for today. Hope it is going better.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, April 26th (Saturday)

How goes life, J? Have you been able to have a real conversation with Crazz?

I'm hoping this is the one that actually 'takes' for Crazz, and I hope you find real peace and satisfaction with your decisions about what to do.

(((Jrazz)))


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, April 26th (Saturday)

Thanks for checking in, loves. I'm working today but I will check back in later.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
solus sto
Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 8:40 PM, April 26th (Saturday)

((((JRazz)))) I am so late to this, and so, so sorry for your pain. Trust yourself...


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 53, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8889 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, April 26th (Saturday)

Jrazz honey I hope you are ok. Remember we all deserve live and respect. I hope you are focusing on having the strength to get it.

((((and strength))))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8744 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 2:15 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

You know, I actually feel really focused. The magic of SI is that you have a community of people who really, REALLY get you and I have been able to talk this out so completely.

No loneliness on a grand scale. My sadness and confusion comes from loving Crazz and feeling that the real truth here is that I'm not my best self when I'm with him. I can't fix him - I can't change his shitty coping mechanisms. I can only work on me and my path, and of course whatever path seems healthiest for DD.

We had a pretty productive convo last night once he was done lashing out in anger because he was upset to have to confront what happened. The 180 really served me, and I'm hoping with every fiber of my being that there has been a dialogue opened wherein we can talk about the best way to be in any kind of relationship both for ourselves and for DD, even if that means some time apart.

Mindfulness is so crucial right now. I'm trying to make every step out of positivity instead of anger. Productivity instead of fear. I hope Crazz can do this with me.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Flourgirl
Member
Member # 40937
Default  Posted: 2:31 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

(((JRAZZ ))) I'm so sorry you are hurt again. I love someone who is not healthy for me to love. He is working hard to change but at times I doubt everything. I have 4 kids watching and they have observed some really bad examples of love and relationships. I'm working on myself. I have become a stronger person and my kids see it. I have modeled enough bad behavior. He had to lose everything before he even started to change. It's up to you to decide what you want and accept nothing less than that. You are an amazing person and deserve only the best!


BS me 39
WH him 40
Dd 7/1/13. TT 7/22/13
SAHM with 4 wonderful kids

Posts: 190 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Kansas City
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 2:42 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

Jrazz -- have you considered that you may be being too willing to work 'with' him on his issues? There is a very fine line between having compassion for another person's issues and 'enabling' them to continue.

I know that CRazz has had a few boundary violations (nothing super major) in the past and that you aren't *feeling* the REAL R with him.
I haven't posted too much on your threads because I've *got nothin'* for your situation. If he were totally unremorseful? *I'm* your girl! But I've not really gotten a good *handle* on CRazz.

Maybe its time for you to take a firmer stance with him. You shouldn't have to keep dealing with and 'understanding' these boundary issues when they pop up. You're going to turn into an anxious, paranoid basket-case......always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Sometimes the anger and fear feelings are telling you something that you need to hear. Remain mindful, but do not be so quick to tamp down the 'negative' (anger/fear) feelings. Being mindful just means don't lash out in a knee-jerk reaction with some statement that you won't be able to follow through on. It doesn't mean that you have to continue to feel disrespected and unheard just because your partner has 'issues.'


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8116 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

I agree, gonnabe - but the firmer stance is moving towards separation. I have been as firm as I can be here in terms of consequences while still working on R. I'm not not going to feed him after he's worked all day to provide for our family. I'm not going to stop being kind to him because he has issues with empathy.

Really, it's up to me to say that I'm either working on this or not. One of my miracle of friends reminds me that this is not a black and white situation. I'm not leaving myself as open as I used to about getting hurt because I'm detaching, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing here. There's no abuse, just unresolved personal issues (both of us) and an abysmal communication system. In regards to that, I've worked my ass off and I get admissions after blowups that he realized he's not meeting me.

Like I said - I am no saint. I have behaviors that can be pretty crappy to deal with, and although I'm trying to work on them I'm far from finished. We're just supposed to talk through this instead of lie and breed resentment. That's the death knell of a relationship in my opinion. We're none of us blameless unicorns, but we can at least own our shit instead of fighting introspection kicking and screaming until someone takes our candy away.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 11:22 AM, April 27th (Sunday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

Mindfulness is so crucial right now. I'm trying to make every step out of positivity instead of anger. Productivity instead of fear. I hope Crazz can do this with me.

You are really in a "good" place emotionally for being in a "bad" place right now, if that makes any sense.

I wish you continued clarity and strength to make the best decisions for you and your precious family.

(((hugs)))


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3850 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
ShellyShell
Member
Member # 42662
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

Jrazz, you always sound like such a wonderful, giving, compassionate, self-aware person on here. I think that you are going to be a fantastic partner for the right someone. He sounds like a very difficult person to be with and he is so lucky to have you as the person giving him the chance to grow. Honestly, not that many people would work with him the way you are. Even if you are not perfect you are doing more than most people would.

I hope that he rises to the occasion and truly begins to appreciate how lucky he is before it is too late. I don't know you and I don't now all your talents, but it is obvious that one of them is this... being able to nurture someone even when it is difficult. My wish for you is that you use that generous gift wisely and on the right person or people, so that it is not wasted.

(((jrazz))) hugs to you!


Posts: 95 | Registered: Mar 2014
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:37 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

(((JRazz)))

That's the death knell of a relationship in my opinion

Why then does he continue to ring the bell. I won't say he's doing nothing, but is it more than the bare minimum? Is that a way to live?

Really, it's up to me to say that I'm either working on this or not.

I get admissions after blowups that he realized he's not meeting me.


It always has been. As I asked earlier, is this the way you want to live? When will it be incumbent on him to become proactive?

Sending you strength. This sounds like you are suffering a slow death from a thousand cuts. I'm sorry.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3040 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, April 27th (Sunday)

Of course it's not the way I want to live, 5454real. Admittedly, I've never been good at pulling the trigger on anything. I wouldn't consider myself a hopeful optimist... maybe I'm a hopeful analyst? Self flagellating analyst?? Analyst/Therapist? (Arrested Development anyone? )

The complicated part is that I care about him. As a friend. As the father of my daughter. As someone who loves him. The more I detach, the more I feel sorry for him that he constructs a false reality around himself that ultimately means the destruction of any meaningful relationship. Sure, I've paid a heavy price for ignoring or trying to work past this, but when I am able to comfortably step outside for a moment I find I have a lot of compassion for the crap hand he was dealt at learning to deal with things. Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness? That doesn't mean I have to stay married to him, but it does mean that I can take whatever route I feel works to try and give him a healthy place to land, if I can.

Does that make sense? There is a change in the wind here, I can feel it. There is a new sadness... I think mourning is creeping in, and I'm going to let it.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

I should have known. You *get* it.

Sending Mojo and prayers.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3040 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Skan
Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

Sometimes it seems to me, that when we''re ready to let go, to take a healthy step away, we can see with more clarity and compassion, the structure of the person that we''re taking a step away from. We can empathize with then, acknowledge who and what they are, and then compassionately let go. (((hugs)))


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4966 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

I don't know if this will help so...well, you know the spiel.

I stayed in limbo for a long time because of WH's issues. Trying for real R, facing some time of violation/limitation, contemplating D. Always wondering what was ultimately the best choice for me - and that always seemed to be changing (hence, the limbo).

Somewhere along the way, instead of trying to figure out what made me happy (lots of different terminology but the concept is still the same) I started to ask myself, does this situation promote my *growth*? Sometimes - often times - that comes in the form of *provoking* us - the stimulus that brings about change.

That's not to say that one should martyr themselves. There comes a time that the cost to return ratio is counterproductive. I think we intuitively know those situations.


Posts: 7682 | Registered: May 2005
SpotlessMind
Member
Member # 41775
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

Just saw this thread and wanted to offer ((((Hugs)))) for both you and Crazz.

I'm so sorry your husband is having such a difficult time with communication and FOO issues--change is hard, and it sucks. You sound so incredibly grounded and compassionate though, and saint or no saint, I believe you have been giving and will give this relationship every chance, and if you have to walk, you'll know that it was a necessary choice.

I hope it doesn't come to that, as your heart is with Crazz, and I send you both all the best wishes for continued (if sometimes rocky) healing. You are strong and brave and compassionate, and those qualities will serve you well, regardless of what the future brings.


fWS/BS--me
BH/WH--him
Married: 12 yrs
D-Day: October
Kids: yes

Posts: 277 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Where am I?
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

I should have known. You *get* it.

I'm sorry if I came off snarky, 545. Obviously there's getting it in general, and getting it enough to make an intelligent decision... and I'm not quite at the finish line there. I really appreciate your advice - please keep the tough love coming.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

(((Jrazz)))

Oh gosh, I don't even know what to say so...(((Jrazz)))

Sometimes a separation is exactly what both parties need. I can assure you, Mr and I would have never entered R if it hadn't been for our separation.

Some endings make the best new beginnings. It's just scary as hell.


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 597 | Registered: Dec 2012
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

Jrazz,

A quick question for you: How are you with receiving empathy? How does that feel to you?


Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

I'm sorry if I came off snarky, 545.

Nope, t'was me. My response, while well intentioned, did not contain nearly enough.

You are the great and powerful *Jrazz*. You have always been a voice of strength. Your wisdom in situations is quite astonishing at times. You *get it*, and are right on target over and over.

However, rarely have I seen you post with so much pain. Your expressions of it are subdued, almost as if wishing to spare *us* some of what you are going through. Reading between the lines though, you *get* even this situation.

The more I detach, the more I feel sorry for him that he constructs a false reality around himself that ultimately means the destruction of any meaningful relationship.

Here's where I'm saying you *get it*. Detachment in the sense of never trying to change him(cause it has to come from within) is showing you a future that is unpalatable at best.

I care about him. As a friend. As the father of my daughter. As someone who loves him.

when I am able to comfortably step outside for a moment I find I have a lot of compassion for the crap hand he was dealt at learning to deal with things.

I get it, you love him. You understand where he is coming from. It sucks, because if he cared enough to *deal* with his issues, your M could work. It's not happening. You *get* this also.

Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness?

No, not at the price that must be paid, not only by you either. Your child deserves/needs to have a healthy relationship demonstrated for her to be able to have her own healthy image of what a relationship should be. Again, you *get it*.

That doesn't mean I have to stay married to him

You're right and that's the *healthy* answer. It sucks. You can see the solution. It's right there, if only....

it does mean that I can take whatever route I feel works to try and give him a healthy place to land, if I can.

Does it? Why? I'm a KISA, gonna fix the problems of the world. That mind set has led me in some very painful directions. Why is it up to you to find a *soft* place for him to land? Which will he learn more from? You solving his problems, or him fixing his own shit? Which is more healthy?

There is a change in the wind here, I can feel it. There is a new sadness... I think mourning is creeping in, and I'm going to let it.

Again, you *get it*

there's getting it in general, and getting it enough to make an intelligent decision... and I'm not quite at the finish line there.

And that's where my apology sets in. (((JRazz))) I am very sorry you're here. I wish there was something anyone could do to help CRazz see the light. It's all on him. You *know* this. I wasn't supportive enough in my response. Sorry. Know that I/we are here for you whatever your choice.

T/J CRazz, strength to you also. T/J


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3040 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

A quick question for you: How are you with receiving empathy? How does that feel to you?

And this brings us to one of my most flagrant and worn personality issues.

How do I receive empathy? I don't. I send it back to the kitchen. I wish and hope for it all day long and when it arrives I don't know what the hell to do with it. I don't feel worthy of it, like I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

Case in point - I can't even really bring myself to read 545's response with an open mind. There are compliments in there and I just try to race through that part as quickly as I can move my eyes.

This is part of why I consider myself painfully honest. I need people to know my every sin so that they know why they shouldn't be offering me as much compassion.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:42 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

And this brings us to one of my most flagrant and worn personality issues.

How do I receive empathy? I don't. I send it back to the kitchen. I wish and hope for it all day long and when it arrives I don't know what the hell to do with it. I don't feel worthy of it, like I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

Case in point - I can't even really bring myself to read 545's response with an open mind. There are compliments in there and I just try to race through that part as quickly as I can move my eyes.

This is part of why I consider myself painfully honest. I need people to know my every sin so that they know why they shouldn't be offering me as much compassion.


You have just described a very similar dynamic between HL and I.

Recently in an IC session I was having my counselor asked me if it was possible for me to love myself as much as I loved my dogs and for me to give myself as much as I give them. I sat there stunned, I had no answer to that, I couldn't fathom that. I could not answer her in the end.

Detachment in a relationship is hard. All I have to offer you is hugs while you work through this. I wish you wisdom as well. ((()))


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 10:55 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

TG's response made me think of something my IC said early on. It was a different situation but the question was the same. She asked: Can you imagine being with someone who gives you the same love back as you give to them? How wonderful would that be?


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:16 PM, April 27th (Sunday)

JRazz, here's the thing. I stand by what I said. Eliminate the compliment. Start with *However*. They are your words, just in a different light.

I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

Nope, just a BS in a really shitty situation. Again I stand by what I(You) said.

Strength


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3040 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 1:07 AM, April 28th (Monday)

I wish I had words/advice that would instantly fix this for you, Jrazz.

Since I don't, I'm sending you loads of hugs and strength. Hang in there, dearest.

((( Jrazz and crew )))


Me - 42
SorryInSac (WH#2) - 47. DDay 7/12/14
Married 4, together 7yrs total
Status - Stick a fork in me...

DD(21), DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids - 4 dogs, 2 cats

WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW) - Legally married 18yrs

I edit often for clarity.


Posts: 6597 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
OnAnIsland
Member
Member # 34319
Default  Posted: 1:48 AM, April 28th (Monday)

Sending you strength and clarity. Hang in there. Thinking of you.

You can't do it by yourself.


D-day: Christmas 2011
D-day 2: 3/28/2013

Married for over 15 years
2 beautiful boys in elementary school

You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. Maya Angelou


Posts: 1479 | Registered: Dec 2011
karmahappens
Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, April 28th (Monday)

This is part of why I consider myself painfully honest. I need people to know my every sin so that they know why they shouldn't be offering me as much compassion.

I used to confess all the bad things about myself.

I had to, it made me positive that if you heard how bad I was you wouldn't, or couldn't love me.

I just wasn't worthy.

But, we are. We really are.

(((hugs)))


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3850 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, April 28th (Monday)

OH Honey, you are getting there, you truly are. At the end of the day you do see the logic of the situation, but have trouble accepting it.

Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness? That doesn't mean I have to stay married to him, but it does mean that I can take whatever route I feel works to try and give him a healthy place to land, if I can

To answer this: To a point. At some point you have to weigh the brokenness, and pain and harm it causes yourself, and your children. If it is something that will shape who you are, who your kids are, and you can see it leading to more brokenness then you HAVE To step away from it.

This shit is hard, and the thing I struggled with the most, was realizing that the one person in the world who was supposed to have my back didn't, and if I didn't put me first, no one else was going to. It was time to make me the priority. There is a reason that they tell you to put your oxygen mask on first when you fly. You are no good to others when you are passed out or dead. The same goes for your emotional well being. If you aren't healthy of mind and soul, then you can't be the best mom you can be. It is ok to put your needs first.

Listen it's not like you are asking for completely unreasonable things here, you are asking for the fair and just treatment that you would give any other person.

As far as being able to accept the empathy and compliments, that takes time. You are worthy, and the sooner you can accept that the happier you will be. We support you and empathize with you because of who you are, not because you are free of fault. You don't have to be perfect, and no one expects that. We care because we know Jrazz is a great person who is hurting and going through a tough time, and she deserves more. She just has to realize it, and take it for herself.

((((and strength))))


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8744 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
itainteasy
Member
Member # 31094
Default  Posted: 8:59 AM, April 28th (Monday)

(((((((((more hugs))))))))

Posts: 3423 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: NWPA
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, April 28th (Monday)

Analyst/Therapist? (Arrested Development anyone?

Come on, what is there not to love about you? Someone who still has this sense of humor during a tough time.

Sending hugs and strength for you.


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, April 28th (Monday)

It's the best/worst defense mechanism.

I'm glad you got the reference, Dixie. I didn't want to be the only person with that word bouncing around my brain!


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, April 28th (Monday)

oh Razzie. I don't even know what to say... Just have hugs (((Razzie)))


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5989 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
DeadMumWalking
Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, April 28th (Monday)

((((Jrazz))))

I'm sorry I missed this thread earlier, but I hope that some belated hugs and strength is better than none.......

I know what you mean about the lying. About avoidance. It's why I don't think there's anything left with my M. And it hurts and is so very difficult to deal with. Especially when you also suffer from depression.

Take care of yourself (and DD). Sending you more hugs, strength, love and peace.

((((Jrazz))))


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 25 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 30
Dday: Dec 2008
Limbo-ish, again (after multiple S) -- weighing my options

Posts: 2632 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, April 28th (Monday)

I'm having some trouble with some aspects of the thought processes here. So much so that I cannot even read them fully and honestly because it's just so counter-intuitive to me. That's not to say that they are wrong. They're just troubling to me.

Doesn't unconditional love dictate that we love someone despite their brokenness?

Yes, it does. It's as simple as it sounds. I think the brick wall comes in the search for the person that we know/accept/expect is broken - BUT just not so much so that we cannot love them unconditionally. Really, isn't that why we are all here? Isn't that the same theme that plays out in almost any forum you are in? It doesn't just play out - one act, same characters. It plays out over and over again. A spouse, an AP, a new SO, a parent, a sibling, a co-worker...

And I'm cool with that because some people really are just so damn difficult. But we're totally missing the point when we think loving unconditionally has anything to do with the qualities of the other person. The ONLY brokenness that keeps us from achieving that is our own. The unconditional part is not in regards to any particular qualities of the other person. The reason we cannot achieve it is because that we continue to love from a perspective of self-protection...where it's less just giving and more like bartering. The unconditionally actually means, without conditions.

(As an aside, I'm personally coming to believe that often what we most need/lack in a relationship is a reflection of our own area of brokenness/inability to receive. It may not be that we're not getting it. It may be that we are unable to receive it. For that reason, I think TIKY's question is most important here.)

It drives me nuts when problems automatically suggest that we need to change our circumstances. It really makes me nuts when that's labeled as being "healthy". How many people do you know that have gone from the frying pan to the fire? You want me to sum up my two marriages as an example? 1) He may hit me but at least he doesn't run around. 2) He may run around but at least he doesn't hit me.

I don't know your exact situation, razzie. I believe in your ability to make the decision that's right for you. But I would like to counter some of the common thought/response that I see so much of the time with this simple idea: Sometimes what we MOST need to do is to stand right where we are. We need to because we're not done with what we need to learn,...we're not done with how this situation presents us the opportunity to grow.

Does there come a time to leave? Quite possibly. Quite possibly that time is even now. BUT I would say ONLY IF you are solidly moving TOWARD something and not simply moving AWAY from something. Not as in, "I deserve better. I want a man that truly loves me" blah, blah, blah. But as in, "I've grown all I can grow here."

I think we'd all (myself included) do better and could find much more peace, if we could just start seeing our relationships - our marriages, specifically - more in terms of opportunities (can I grow here?) and logistics (and is this a nice place to sit while I do that?) and less in terms of ideologies (marriage should be...) and emotions (I feel so...).

Can you grow here, Razz?
And is that growth in spite of it - or is that growth because of it?

IMHO, this is what you need to weigh out.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 1:24 PM, April 28th (Monday)]


Posts: 7682 | Registered: May 2005
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, April 28th (Monday)

((((((Jrazz))))))(((((((Crazz)))))) (((((((littlemissrazz)))))))

If this were your DDs situation, what would you want for her?

I wonder if it would help to have Crazz to answer it? I know it helped me when I asked XH the question?

Good luck, no matter what decisions you make - YOU WILL BE OK?

More hugs,
K

[This message edited by Kajem at 2:03 PM, April 28th (Monday)]


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, April 28th (Monday)

How do I receive empathy? I don't. I send it back to the kitchen. I wish and hope for it all day long and when it arrives I don't know what the hell to do with it. I don't feel worthy of it, like I've somehow manipulated the person expressing empathy. I've tricked them into thinking I'm kinder or sadder or smarter than I really am.

I asked that question because I have a theory that we subconsciously choose a partner who will force us to work through our issues, eventually. For us, I knew in the very beginning that Waywardson was intimacy-avoidant. He LITERALLY ran from me the first time we talked. It was confusing and I thought, "Okay, this guy just isn't that into me." and I went on about my life until we met again, THEN he was REALLY into me. I don't know of one healthy guy who ever caught my eye. Not one. The reason was because I, too, was intimacy-avoidant. When we were working through our stuff, a lightbulb came on for both of us and we finally knew EXACTLY how we ended up together.

I think that, if you walked out the door today, you'd find yourself with a very similar partner, in the future. You can't do Crazz's work for him, but you can do yours. This is also a bit scary because when one partner in a relationship puts in the work and grows- and the other doesn't- the relationship will eventually fall apart. But you can't let that stop you. You don't have to save the world, you don't have to save your M, all you have to do is save yourself by finding out why you are also intimacy-avoidant, how it started, and start looking for opportunities to take little risks, like being open to receiving empathy in this post.

If 5454's post is causing you look away, I think you should read it over and over again- even read it aloud. Start by reading it as if it were written about someone else and take note of how you feel, then transition into reading it as it was written and, again, take note of how you feel. Try to figure our WHY you feel that way- where is that coming from? WHY is it OK for someone else to receive empathy and not OK for you?

(((Jrazz)))

[This message edited by ThoughtIKnewYa at 2:11 PM, April 28th (Monday)]


Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, April 28th (Monday)

I think we'd all (myself included) do better and could find much more peace, if we could just start seeing our relationships - our marriages, specifically - more in terms of opportunities (can I grow here?) and logistics (and is this a nice place to sit while I do that?) and less in terms of ideologies (marriage should be...) and emotions (I feel so...)
.

This is such a great place to start. Hope your day has been ok. ((Jrazz))


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 597 | Registered: Dec 2012
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:04 PM, April 28th (Monday)

Great food for thought. I hope I can grow here, because I'm spending a LOT of time here.

I think that, if you walked out the door today, you'd find yourself with a very similar partner, in the future.

You know what's funny? I thought Crazz was completely different from my other long term, serious relationships. (The other TWO ) I trusted him more than anyone, and that was a big factor in why I married him. I actually had an ex who had some sort of panic when I started dating Crazz and made a bid for getting back together with me, and although I felt more compatible with him, I didn't trust him not to hurt me (cheat) so I shut that down.

In retrospect, all the guys I dated had the same cockiness, ego, and lack of empathy that I was mysteriously oblivious to.

Ironically, I had two really close male friends over the course of my life who wanted to take our relationship to the next level and I handled it like shit. The first one was a bff from high school. Gorgeous, kind, stupid-wealthy family (Google "Atherton, CA") and devoted to me. He ran our social circle, and when he wasn't available I had the pager and ran the show. We were pilot and copilot for some of the best years of my life, and when I went to college he didn't let distance stop him from "taking care" of me. Late night calls where I would laugh or cry about the people in the dorms. 3 hour drives to come just have dinner with me. It was the largest "duh" in my life that he had feelings, but I was so comfortable with not being committed to him... it was the "perfect" relationship, except for that I didn't SEE him. I didn't let him in past the last step. Well, one visit he appeared to be having a panic attack and finally blurted out that he was in love with me. I froze in horror, said some AWFUL things about never wanting to date him because I didn't want to lose him. He took me back to school and I lost him. That was it. We talked a few times, saw each over the holidays, and it dwindled until there was nothing left. My family hated me for this, and his was pretty sad too.

It's like, I have an easier time letting someone in who I know is going to hurt me - someone who is broken or selfish or naive to common social etiquette. (Did I mention Crazz fed HIMSELF the wedding cake. You should SEE the look on my face in the pictures.)

I had another close male friend later in college and it was a very similar situation. We were best friends and I felt safe. He was attractive, ambitious, and kind. One day he said, "My mom thinks we would be great together." and just stared at me, hopefully. For some reason this terrified me and I yelled at him and left. It's inexplicable except for in the context of my not ever feeling brave enough to set myself up for real happiness.

Thank you all for helping me think out loud about this. It's so helpful to be able to stand outside yourself when looking for why's and how's.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 10:05 PM, April 28th (Monday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Dreamboat
Member
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, April 28th (Monday)

(((jrazz)))

You and Crazz seem to have an ongoing issue with his seeming lack of empathy and his inability to "get" you. Like he is doing the things he was taught he was supposed to do as a husband, but is not feeling the "why" of why it is important.

You have mentioned that you both have FOO issues. You have mentioned that you are working on yours. But is he working on his? And if he is, is he making progress? Even baby steps? Or does he seem to be just as stunted in IC as he seems to be in your relationship?

And I ask this because I only read your perspective. When you post about your frustrations with him you usually do not post about his previous successes.

At some point you need to take a step back and evaluate where you are and where you want to be. And you need to realize that this may be as good as it gets with Crazz. Not that he is a bad person or that he is not willing to do the work, but that because of his FOO issues and personality that what he is giving now is the best he has to give. And if that is the case, you need to decide if that is something that you can live with. That does not mean that you do not love him, it just means that you recognize that you need more than he is able to give. Or perhaps you realize that you can live with what he is able to give because you do love him and would prefer a life with him, despite his brokenness, than a life without him.

I am not saying that him crossing a boundary and/or lying is acceptable. But rather, you see progress with him and believe he will learn from this and not hurt you again in the same way. Or that you accept that he may not learn from this and may hurt you again, but it is a hurt that you are willing to accept because of the love you share with him. (I don't think I am expressing this well -- I am not saying that you should accept being disrespected but I fear that is how I expressed it; I hope you understand what I am trying to convey...maybe I can articulate better in the morning).

Peace and love


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17695 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:40 PM, April 28th (Monday)

I was just talking about this with him today, in the context of how he felt his IC was interms of helping him deal with his FOO issues.

The thing is, the gameplan seems to be to stuff them. I'm not privy to the sessions, but I know that his IC encourages him to have ZERO contact with his dad and sister. To me (Codependent alert) this seems drastic, even though they are pretty rude to me. It's part of my worrying that his solution is to push people away when things are emotionally strained.

I'm still learning how to deal with things but have come a long way with my FOO. I constantly have to practice letting go, and to quit projecting what I would do onto them. If that makes sense. Accepting people how they are has always been easy for me, UNLESS I don't like the way they're treating me. That's mine to work on.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, April 28th (Monday)

I thought Crazz was completely different from my other long term, serious relationships. (The other TWO ) I trusted him more than anyone, and that was a big factor in why I married him.
Same here. Just makes me shake my head. NOW I believe I can trust him because he finally trusts me with himself, but it was a rough road getting here.

ETA: I was H's first and only, until the A. I NEVER doubted him, so it was BEYOND shocking on d-day.

[This message edited by ThoughtIKnewYa at 10:54 PM, April 28th (Monday)]


Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

So I'm keeping on keeping on, right?

Here's yesterday's fun:

"In the interest of communication, I wanted to let you know that I would like to work out in the garage while you are working all day Sunday. I think DD4 is old enough to hang out on her own for a while." ***(Garage work almost always includes very loud tools - ie air compressor and table saw and blasting music. And hands covered in grease. And chemical smells from lots of sprays and paint.)***

R
U
F
K
M
?
?
?

Torrent of stuttering, occasional profanity, and one apology later, I explain that I don't feel that this is the appropriate way to care for a 4 year old and it makes me uncomfortable that he would even ask.

"See, this is why I don't come to you with things."

THEN I get this call today:

"Hey babe! So in the interest of better communication I want to let you know that [some other female coworker] is going on a lunch ride today and I would like to go."


So... you...after last week....and this is.... wait. Just wait. So you think the solution here is to TELL me when you want to hang out with other women. Coming on the HEELS of getting busted the other day.

"But you told me to talk to you when I start resenting you for not being able to do things. See, I can't come to you to talk!!!"

Between hyperventilating at the insane, oxygen deprived parallel universe I keep getting lobbed into, I tried to gently explain that were it not for his ass-dial whoopsie the other day I would have been amenable to this conversation. Having it now? Ironic bordering on vulgar.

Or I'm crazy. Is that it? Am I crazy??? You can tell me.


/vent

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:44 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Oh dear.

(((((((Razzie)))))))

Are you crazy? Pshhh, no. But he is. I vote a name change. No longer CRazz. He's CRazy.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne


Posts: 6335 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)



No. You're not crazy.
(((Jrazz)))

Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
purplejacket4
Member
Member # 34262
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

4 year alone inside all day.... Um no.

The ONLY time I remember my parents fighting is when my mom went to work and then my dad left the house in the car to go to the hardware store. My mom came home to find me alone watching The Adams Family (that dates me). I was four. My mom went BALLISTIC on my dad when he got home. Oh man. That was 40 years ago and I still remember that.

Sounds like your husband needs to NEVER be alone with another woman. EVER.


Me: BS 45
Her: fWS 48 (same sex partner)
Together: 18 years now (both MDs)
OW: meh so what 40s PhD
DD1: 10/30/11EA; DD2: 11/10/11 Had ONS; TT until 12/26/11; broke NC 6/12; NC again 7/12; R-ish

Posts: 2263 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Great Southwest
Pentup
Member
Member # 20563
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Jazz, I don't know what boundaries you have implemented, but it is more than 8years later and my h still does not ever do one on one time with another female. No co workers lunch, nothing. If he can't find another male to join them and call me first, deal breaker. In 8 years, he has not (to my knowledge) busted that boundary. Sometimes I feel bad because he is in a female dominated industry. Then I think too f-ing bad. I used to be cool and he slid down that slippery slope into stupid.

So calling me to tell me he is going to lunch or taking a ride with one female? That's fine, stop by and pick up the hefty bags, because we are done.


Me- BS
Him- FWS (I hope- F)

Posts: 6605 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Not Oz
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Well he's TIRED of that, Dr. pj!

In honesty, there was the option of having another male coworker or two along. I just can't see how that changes things here. In our case, he radiates prince-fucking-charming and women are drawn to him. (Men too - whole other thing.) He was cleared to attend group functions with females there so long as he pinged me - and he got caught not bothering to ping me.

He was always the type of person where if you tell him not to do something, he is compelled to do it just to defy you. He does not appreciate rules, instructions, etc. Oil and water, we are.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:57 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Jrazz, he has no boundaries that are internal to HIM.

So far these are rules that YOU have implemented and this is why it continues to be a problem between you two.

What is he doing, or what does he WANT to do to make the internal changes?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

he has no boundaries that are internal to HIM.

That's true for absolutely every aspect of his life. Every single one. Zero boundaries. All impulse and impatience. He thinks he's trustworthy because in this very moment he has no intention to betray. He constructs his own reality around him as he goes, and sees himself exactly how he wants to.

It's always been this way.

So I went and had a kid with him and the whole ballgame changed. She's 4, and he wants to leave her in the house while he putzes in the garage. How in the world would I feel safe splitting custody with this person?


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Oh wow

Yes, what TG said.

Not going to really comment on his density. But you gotta watch your own codependency tendencies -- and I know you are!!!!!! -- it's just a reminder, because Crazz is VERY p/a and p/a and CoD go together like peas and carrots. One can feed the other.

((((jrazz))))


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

But you gotta watch your own codependency tendencies -- and I know you are!!!!!!

Not nearly enough. Totally on spin cycle here.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Pentup
Member
Member # 20563
Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Authority defiance, mine has that too.

I explained (a lot and loudly) that this was my boundary. It was not a rule, he could do whatever he chose. I, however,was choosing to NOT be married to someone that disrespected me by hanging out in any way shape or form, with another female.

Years in, he started being "charming" to other females when out with friends of ours (h/w), I found out and we separated for several months.

I am not saying you should do the same, just letting you know that for me, if my h wants to take a slide on that slope, he can keep on going.


Me- BS
Him- FWS (I hope- F)

Posts: 6605 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Not Oz
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Would he consider changing IC's and are you guys in MC?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Pentup
Member
Member # 20563
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

He was cleared to attend group functions with females there so long as he pinged me - and he got caught not bothering to ping me.

Yeah, no. If I found out that my h had done that, we would be back at ground zero. Meaning, no outside activities with any females and only with males that are strong friends of our marriage (short list). This was my initial boundary for over a year. He equated it to a short leash. I equated it to, choose to demonstrate I can trust you or I choose to not be with you.


Me- BS
Him- FWS (I hope- F)

Posts: 6605 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Not Oz
gutfeeling
Member
Member # 41652
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

I see some of the same dynamic that we have:

He does something totally ridiculous, you react, and then he says "see, you're so unreasonable, you don't let me have any fun, you're acting like my mom."

I was unaware that we had this dynamic until the MC called my H on it and said - we'll you're acting like a sullen teenager! You should have seen his face. I occasionally hear the "you're acting like my mom" comments and now I just respond that if he weren't acting like an idiot, I wouldn't have to.

I'm not sure that helps much. You seem to have all the tools (relationship wise), you're just not sure what you want to build.

Best of luck and hang in there.


Posts: 155 | Registered: Dec 2013
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

She's 4, and he wants to leave her in the house while he putzes in the garage.

Yeah. That's bad. As a father I'm on my third 4yo, she turns 4 next week, my question is why not enjoy the time with your daughter. There will be plenty of time whenever to putz around in the garage. Yeah, we all have stuff we WANT to do, but not leaving your 4yo daughter alone should be something that you WANT to do too. Time spent with your child can be just as fun as anything else. And more rewarding too! That's part of being a parent.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2225 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 2:54 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

I'm painfully aware of this dynamic, and we've had several MC's point this out. I think his IC has either gotten complacent, or he's not giving her a complete picture - I suspect both.

He called to say he wanted to come home and talk.

He came home for lunch, ate his lunch while staring at me folding DD's clothes we got from a friend. Then he went in the garage, drilled some holes in something, went to the side yard and mowed the 5x5 patch of grass, came in... washed the bowl and plate I left in the sink, and then told me he had to go back to work. I was quiet but not ignoring him. I literally tied down my codependency, and believe me she was screaming and wrestling to be cut loose.

So he announced his departure and stared at me some more.

Then he said..... drumroll please....

"What?"

Jesusmaryandjoseph save me.


I said (thanks to you all here) that I thought it would be in his best interest to seek out a new IC as his current one doesn't seem to be helping him so much as enabling him to remain p/a.

He said "Ok great - fine. I'll get a new counselor." In a half-huff half serious tone.

The he said, "Ok... I'm going..."

I said "Goodbye"

He said, "What time is your meeting tonight?"

I said, "5-6 but I have counseling at 3 so you need to pick up DD like we discussed."

He said, "Yeah ok. So I'll give her dinner?"

I said, "Yes, please."

He said, "Ok then. I'm going to head back to work now.

Me: "Ok."

Him, looking exaperated at me, "BYE" and an eyeroll.


This is always been the way of it. How in the world did we last this long. This CoDep/P-A parent/child dynamic is just plain insane.

Oy.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 2:55 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

Jrazz - Honey seriously??? He is manipulating you, knowingly or not he is.
You let him go with other women for lunches etc if he just is kind enough to say so, even though he has crappy boundaries? Then he dishonors you by not having the decency, or balls to do even this? While out of town? I think that right there would warrant a week on the couch.

Then This???? He seriously considers leaving a 4 year old alone in the house for more than 15 minutes? ? ? No way. Uhnuh. I mean we know you are super mom, but seriously, he fails to see that this could be extremely dangerous???

Nope not a chance. If he wants to work in the garage he hires a babysitter with his funds.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8744 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
918Mama
Member
Member # 37756
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

How in the world would I feel safe splitting custody with this person?

Me thinks this is the issue that is preventing you from moving forward.

Says one obsessively worried mama to another.

I imagine if the safety of little Razzie wasn't at play here, we would see some very different responses to all of this.

If that's true Jrazz...just know you're in the company of many other parents who are simply trying to keep extinction from occurring by keeping their children alive!

180. Engaging in the crazy making isn't making it better for either of you. Detach, regroup and find a babysitter for your little one this weekend so Crazz can get some time in the garage. Figure out how to co-exist in the least stressful way possible until you can decide what the next move is.

TG is right...until Crazz decides for himself what he's willing to do, you're just his parent and he'll decide for himself which of the rules he wants to follow.

This shit ain't easy. But you aren't alone. (((Jrazz)))


Surrender to what is. Let go of what was. Have faith in what will be. -- Sonia Ricotti

Posts: 597 | Registered: Dec 2012
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 3:18 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

slight t/j:
I didn't finish my MA 15 years ago because that would have involved leaving him in charge of the kids for a week while I finished my paper at the library. They would have starved to death, wore dirty clothes to school and went to bed at God knows when.
sorry end t/j
but I know whereof you speak and I'm so sorry you're going through this.

What i don't get: why do some waywards NOT realize what TG said in that those boundaries should be self-imposed, not BS impose? Do they realize that the boundaries created by the person keeping themselves safe for their own sake and others that there is no chance to be resentful?
I can't tell you how many times I've heard - "if you're going to react like this I'm not going to tell you." Or, "see I'm telling you," - SOOOO missing the point.

[This message edited by rachelc at 3:20 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

((((Jrazz))))


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4196 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
abbycadabby
Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 4:30 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

(((Jrazz)))

I can so identify with your posts. From the dynamic of hurting for my exWH because of his FOO (Oh, I can SHOW him how to love! Co-de much?) to the parent/child unhealthy dynamic (complete with him constantly seeking validation/approval) to the not wanting to divorce because I somehow needed to protect my kid from him. Except, mine was abusive and manipulative on top of all that.

It totally sucks.

I have no advice. You'll get there when you get there. (I can tell you this about myself though. I remember the detachment and the mourning that came after. I mourned the loss of my marriage before it was even over, so by the end, I was truly done. No residual anything. I was afraid of the unknown, but I was over him completely.) I also want to echo what a previous poster said- what if this is the best CRazz can do? Are you willing to accept this as his best?


Posts: 1278 | Registered: Feb 2010
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

He constructs his own reality around him as he goes, and sees himself exactly how he wants to.
I call this type of person a "shape shifter" and they can never be trusted to be consistent in their actions.

Leaving a 4 y/o alone for ANY amount of time is completely unacceptable.

He's waving some VERY serious red flags:
1) No empathy (a HUGE red flag)
2) It's all about him
3) No boundaries and an inability to recognize and respect YOURS
4) manipulative
5) charming
6) lies easily
7) neglectful of your child

Those are really serious red flags, I'm sorry.

I'm wondering if he's telling you of his plans to leave your DD alone so that it becomes YOUR fault (in his mind), if anything happens?


Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

He told her in the hopes that she would do something about it because he really would rather be in the garage than spending time with his kid. He was really hoping she would take this off his hands.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
ThoughtIKnewYa
Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 5:29 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

He told her in the hopes that she would do something about it because he really would rather be in the garage than spending time with his kid. He was really hoping she would take this off his hands.

*sigh* You're right. Maybe. A lot of people who share the same red flags with Crazz just think completely differently than normal people and trying to make sense of their actions will only make a normal person nuts.

Jrazz,
Can you see yourself living like this for the rest of your life?

In spending time down in I Can Relate, I've picked up a few things I'd like to share with you:

You didn't cause it and you can't fix it.

Don't
Even
Think
About
Changing
Him/Her

And the most important one, when crazy making is going on:
Jrazz knows the truth.


Posts: 11779 | Registered: Mar 2008
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:17 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

I am curious as to how Crazz was parented when he was younger. Depending on how he was parented, maybe this was not such a crazy suggestion on his end.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 11:41 PM, April 30th (Wednesday)

(((Jrazz)))

A looong time ago, in my first M, I was cooking dinner one day. Suddenly, I heard my XW SCREAMING my name. I dropped what I was doing and ran out the front door figuring one of the kids had been hurt,

I was right. My two yo son had gone face first onto the driveway and was bleeding profusely from the mouth and nose screaming for his mommy. She was holding him by the hair at arms length to keep the blood from getting on her bikini. After all, you can't tan in a bloodstained bikini right? Impressed the neighbors so much that they volunteered to testify at the custody(divorce) trial.

My point is, I was right there and couldn't protect him from her. I did win custody and she became an EOW mother. Every time I had to let him go, I prayed that he would be returned to me safely. For the most part, it worked.

I was able to provide him a safe environment when he was with me. A stable environment. I wanted him to have a chance to see what a *normal* family was. Even if it was just the two of us.

Would you rather your daughter was from a *broken* home or living in one?

I'm sorry you have come to this point. Maybe he will make the changes you need to feel safe. Only you can decide.

Sending strength


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3040 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:01 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

Depending on how he was parented, maybe this was not such a crazy suggestion on his end.


Ding ding ding!!!! His father is Peter Pannier than Peter Pan. With a potty mouth. You were branded stupid if you cared about things like sobriety or safety. When Crazz took up cycling his dad called it "That fa**oty bike crap."

He has a lifetime of emotional abuse and shitty paternal examples to deal with. It's part of what makes me as sorry for him as angry at him. He fakes normalcy as hard as he can, but his upbringing keeps reaching out from inside.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:03 AM, May 1st (Thursday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:04 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

She was holding him by the hair at arms length to keep the blood from getting on her bikini.

Wow, I've heard of some cold blooded bitches but that takes the taco. I'm so sorry. My heart hurts just reading that.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Amazonia
Member
Member # 32810
Default  Posted: 1:11 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

I'm late to this game, but this comment you made jumped out at me Jrazz:

He was always the type of person where if you tell him not to do something, he is compelled to do it just to defy you. He does not appreciate rules, instructions, etc.

His behavior around women shouldn't be based on you telling him how to behave. Your role is not meant to be mother or jailer. Rather than you fighting with him over his behavior and choices, the two of you really ought to be on the same page, fighting together.

As in, he needs to come the fuck around to sensible decisions on his own. I'm surprised his IC isn't helping him come to those boundaries and healthy behaviors from his own desire. His motivation should be much deeper and more intrinsic than "because my wife says so."


"You yourself deserve your love and affection as much as anybody in the universe." -Buddha
"Let's face it, life is a crap shoot." -Sad in AZ

Posts: 13813 | Registered: Jul 2011
FixYou71
Member
Member # 42654
Default  Posted: 1:17 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

Jrazz, reading through this thread I feel like I am reading about a man who is so completely ungounded in that he is unable to experience intimacy and vulnerability. His snarky behavior reminds me of my H's former ways. He has said many times that he knew then that he was being a total jerk but could not apologize. He was angry and had no real foundation. I am of the firm belief that unless and until one can allow themself to embrace vulnerability with their partner the rest of their existence is spent scrounging for bits and pieces to fill that void. In that process the walls they throw up unconsciously present themselves in many different ways: ambivalence, selfishness, impatience etc.
My H also grew up with more than his fair share of sh*try parenting and FOO issues. I too have deep compassion for him.


BS: 43
H: 49
Dday #1 Oct 2007 (Porn for 2 yrs)
Dday #2 May 2013 (Porn for 5 more yrs))
Dday#3 May 2014 (finally admitted to drunk kissing OW in 1994: the 2nd drunken kiss with another woman during our M)
DD 21 and DS 17
Married 1993

Posts: 452 | Registered: Mar 2014
silverhopes
Member
Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:12 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

I'm sorry to hear all of this is happening, Jrazz. It sounds like there are some definite red flags - willingness to leave Vrazz alone, the boundaries breach that happened, other things. Has accountability been an ongoing struggle? Has he tried before to leave Vrazz unsupervised, or is this something he's suddenly doing? I find that to be very concerning either way.

(((Jrazz)))


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3913 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
redrock
Member
Member # 21538
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

He has a lifetime of emotional abuse and shitty paternal examples to deal with. It's part of what makes me as sorry for him as angry at him. He fakes normalcy as hard as he can, but his upbringing keeps reaching out from inside.

At what point does his FOO end and his personal responsibility/accountability kick in- in your mind? I'm not saying that to be a bitch. I know that some behavior is entrenched, but repeating the cycle with his own daughter seems acceptable to him. You are parenting both people in your family. Isn't that exhausting?

If he is not invested in healing/changing the FOO patterns and outcome for his precious daughter, you have to come to acceptance of that. You can analyze it and reanalyze it- but you won't be able to find a palatable way to digest his endangering his child because he was endangered.

That is where the 'tough shit' rubber meets the empathy road in my book. Putting yourself above a toddler that needs your care and attention is criminal. His brokenness loses every time to your child's safety. Period.

Would he follow through with the garage/house daycare plan or is he playing emotional chicken with you to get you to engage in the same co-dependent song and dance? idk. But it cruel and sick to screw with you like that at best, and at worst- scary as hell that he thinks that is acceptable parenting.

I hope for your daughters sake that he can get help. She deserves more, as do you.



I don't respect anyone that can't spell a word more than one way:)

Posts: 3158 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Michigan
Lovedyoumore
Member
Member # 35593
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

My H's a FOO issues have nearly ruined our marriage. I stepped into major crazy and disfunction when I married my H. On the surface his family appeared to have it all together but inside the house it was dysfunctional. His father is a narcissistic cheater. His mother used my H as her emotional partner and it screwed him up. They were partners and when I came along I was the OW to her. The kids learned to live the family lie and compartmentalize very early. There was physical and emotional abuse. I totally missed everything until the wedding rehearsal when her fangs came out. It went down hill from there. After we married my H continued to get his emotional support from his mother. She prompted and he supplied her with enough info (mostly false) about our marriage that my inlaws could barely tolerate me. We had two sweet children that they have ignored all of their lives.

I tell you this because about 18 years ago I had enough and we went to MC. The therapist cut to the chase nearly immediately. My H had never bonded with me emotionally because he already had his emotional wife, his mother. The weird result was he had put me into his spoiler mother role. He saw me as controlling and mothering even though that was never the case. He spent our first 18 years acting like a teenager trying to get out from under my control, when he really should have been leaving his mother's control. Because he projected that role onto me he almost went through with leaving me because that is what teenage boys are supposed to do when they grow up, leave their mothers.

The therapist told my H that he had to emotionally divorce his parents and severely limit contact. He actually strongly advised no contact because he told my H that he was cheating with his mother. Talk about a screwed up mess. He did that and as long as there was no contact, we did well. The demons resurfaced 4 years ago when once again, unknown to me, my H started to resent me as his mothering figure when his own mother died suddenly. Less than a year later he found a new emotional partner and his A was born.

If the therapist told your H to stay away from his family, there could be a very good, deep reason. Trust me, I know how it feels to be put into the blender where you are accused of being the uncool, controlling authority figure when they really need to grow out of their arrested development.


Me 52
WH 52
Married 30+ years
Together trying to R

I tell people I am tired but really my heart is broken and I am sad.


Posts: 1532 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Southern, bless your heart
abbycadabby
Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

At what point does his FOO end and his personal responsibility/accountability kick in- in your mind? I'm not saying that to be a bitch. I know that some behavior is entrenched, but repeating the cycle with his own daughter seems acceptable to him. You are parenting both people in your family. Isn't that exhausting?

Gently, this is where I was going but Jrazz didn't answer my last question in my last post. My question was are you willing to accept this as his best?

If the answer is yes, then you're parenting both your daughter and him. If this is his best then the dynamic that exists doesn't need to change because you're accepting it, therefore, the status quo remains.

If the answer is no, then he has to learn to take personal responsibility despite his FOO. He has to take responsibility for his marriage and the natural boundaries that come with marriage. For parenting his child well despite his shitty childhood. For learning to be a partner, not a child.

OR, you two go separate ways.

A lot of people, a lot of SIers even, have had shitty childhoods. My IC likened my childhood to a "war zone" - her words. Top that off with my exWH. Do I have issues? Yep. You can ask my friends, my SO. I have difficulties with intimacy, both emotional and physical. I have issues making myself vulnerable, which sometimes inhibits proper communication even though I'm fairly articulate. I'm indecisive. I can be conflict avoidant. A people pleaser. A fixer. I internalize when I should let my feelings out somehow, so I have crappy coping skills (hello ulcers!) I've had to both find and LEARN how to use my own voice.

But I know those issues are there. I own them. I work really hard to fix them. Sometimes I fail, but I own it. And even though I had a shit childhood, I understand that that doesn't change my present circumstances. I still have to carry on. I still have a child to parent who has his own behavioral and emotional issues to contend with. I still have a job to do. I still have to take responsibility for myself and my child. I still have to be a grown up.

It's time for Peter Pan to grow up.

(((((((((((((((JRazz))))))))))))))))))


Posts: 1278 | Registered: Feb 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

regarding the parenting thing. My husband also suffers from lack of good role models. But in his day, they were probably good. It's how every Dad treated their kids on the farm - wait for them to get old enough to work.

I went to Alaska for 5 days to visit my Mom and hubby took those days off to stay with the kids. When I got home the basement was finished. I said what the hell did you do with the kids? He said when he heard crying he went upstairs. WTF? This was the role model he witnessed. Taking care of kids is not work and work always has to be done. I was furious. I was resentful. I didn't have the greatest role model parents either but at some point you rise above that and DO KIDS RIGHT!

I had to accept that this was all he could do. He is not a natural parent.I made sure I was in charge all the time. Co-dependent, I don't know. But I certainly wasn't going to put my kids' lives at risk.

I'm not sure why people are clueless about what children need. I think it involves seeing the big picture. But mostly it involves having priorities.
If adults don't have their priorities figured out, they're doomed. And other people get hurt. Does Crazz have his priiorities straight?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

My question was are you willing to accept this as his best?

Sorry for not addressing this, abby. I read everything but I sometimes respond in my head instead of on the thread.

I'm not willing to live with that. A good friend put it into amazing perspective last night. I dated Crazz. He was great - his family was a pack of assholes. I thought we could work past that together even though he wasn't exactly standing up for me, so I then married potential Crazz. I stay in a relationship with potential Crazz.

I had never looked at it like that before, but it makes sense that it's what I'm doing. It's also not healthy or ok.

Just muddling through it all right now. I can't tell you all what it means to be able to get all my thoughts out here. I promise that even if I don't respond to specific questions, I take each of them to heart because I really do want to make good choices here.

Thank you.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 9:12 AM, May 1st (Thursday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 9:04 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

I'm not sure why people are clueless about what children need. I think it involves seeing the big picture.

Isn't that the truth!

Looking at it from this perspective, you can almost immediately tell who's a marathon parent and who's a sprinter. Can they see life more than two inches in front of their face?

Really well put, rc.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

I dated Crazz. He was great - his pamily was a pack of assholes. I thought we could work past that together even though he wasn't exactly standing up for me, so I then married potential Crazz. I stay in a relationship with potential Crazz.

Oh, BTDT. My advice now for anyone starting out is look at your partners family closely and if they are assholes -- run away as fast as you can. It usually gets worse instead of better.

I agree with redrock, as hard as it is to hear. The rubber has to hit the road at some point. You must be exhausted from the overwhelming frustration of playing the same dance. I know I was.

I'm also an analyzer by nature and that's where the following comes from.

The man with passive aggressive behavior needs someone to be the object of his hidden hostility. He needs an adversary whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from his parents.

That's a quote from Dr. Lynne Namka's article on passive aggressiveness. It's a great article btw.

Right now, you are Crazz's adversary. As long as you have ANY expectations and demands, he will resist, if/until he is self-aware enough to see it and want to change. And he is getting something out of this behaviour, even sub-consciously, or he wouldn't be doing it.

I remember right before my husband's affair his work adversary quit and he was aware enough to say to me -- 'What am I going to do now? I need an enemy'. Guess who was unlucky enough to be promoted into that vacated spot when one big target was now gone? That's when my life got more hellish.

You mentioned his IC said he should not have contact with his father and sister and you thought that was harsh. Sometimes toxic people have to go, and that's fine. But if someone is p/a and you remove people who they normally would play out their p/a with, the pool gets smaller. You are still in the pool Jrazz. If he hasn't worked through the stuff that lead to the p/a behavior, often tied in with this mother, and it doesn't sound like he has -- simply removing them from his life doesn't mean those behaviors disappear. Doesn't sound like his IC is helping him with that. And you can't either.

You can only detach further even if he falls and prevent DD from going down with him. He's not to be relied upon, unless you want it to end in resistance and a fight.

Yeah, this stuff all sucks.


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
abbycadabby
Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

I then married potential Crazz. I stay in a relationship with potential Crazz

But are you seeing actual potential?

What, to you, qualifies as potential?

That's why my question was are you willing to accept current sitch as his best, because, what if there IS no potential? What if the only potential that exists is your idealized version of CRazz that he might possibly never realize?


Posts: 1278 | Registered: Feb 2010
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

The potential is in his verbal commitments, mostly after I've had a complete breakdown. So, like, guerrilla currency.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 9:34 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

Honey, I referred to this article in my last post, have you seen it before?

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

It was like reading my life in B/W and I suspect much like yours too

(((((Jrazz)))))


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

t/j
Pin him down on his confusing the issue to save his skin. When he says, ‘You know how I say things I don't mean.' Confront him with ‘How do I know which half? When you give me mixed messages I get so confused that I don't feel loving and close to you.'

ARGH!! didnt realize this was PA

end t/j


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5344 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
abbycadabby
Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

The potential is in his verbal commitments

I'm too stupid to get the guerilla currency reference but don't we always preach on here that actions matter over words?


Posts: 1278 | Registered: Feb 2010
IWantDoOver
Member
Member # 39440
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

It's like, I have an easier time letting someone in who I know is going to hurt me.

What hurts (not being snarky)?

I then married potential Crazz. I stay in a relationship with potential Crazz.

Failed expectations/ failed potential:
*spending time with female coworkers
*parenting ability and parenting desire
*passive-aggressive communication style


Peace

Posts: 212 | Registered: Jun 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

Did you also say at one time that he has issues with ADHD?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Kajem
Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

Jrazz,

I'll chime in about him needing a new therapist: would he work with a male therapist!

It sounds like he is good at using charm as a way to manipulate - he might not be aware of it! It is usually an unconscious reaction. Women tend to nurture, he might feel more comfortable with that approach. He might need to have a therapist deliver goal accountability instead of nurturing toward a goal.

Just a thought.

Sending hugs and prayers.

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 5333 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 11:02 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

would he work with a male therapist!


This totally!!! HL only works with male IC's now, kind of a boundary issue.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, May 1st (Thursday)

You don't have to martyr yourself because the man you love has problems that were dumped on him by his FOO. If you're done, you're done. You can still view yourself as loving, kind, generous, and forgiving if your well of tolerance has dried up. If C is changing too slowly for you to keep yourself healthy, then leaving may be the healthiest choice available to you.

But...

What potential do you see in Crazz that he isn't fulfilling? (i.e. what specific behaviors?)
*********************************************

Passive-aggressiveness could, in fact, be due to ADD. Is Adderall really doing the job that needs to be done? Or is something else needed besides speed - frequent coaching, behavior mod, an entirely different pharm approach, etc., for example. Look for a shrink who specializes in psychopharmacology instead of ADD to get a choice wider than just drugs advertised for ADD (stimulants/Intuniv/etc.).

Blowing through boundaries could also be due to ADD - ADD really makes it difficult to build habits, and makes it very easy to forget one's commitments.

If Crazz commits freely to changing his behavior, R is still possible, since you're still hooked on him.

Note: I'm not saying you need to excuse the ADD. I'm saying that IMO it's too early to quit if C freely commits to learning to control the downsides of his ADD.

Crazz also has to drop his rebelliousness very soon. He simply can't become autonomous unless he does. He needs to recognize and accept that his current behavior is keeping him from getting what he wants.

He needs to know he's the prime beneficiary of his boundaries. He's the prime victim of his boundary violations. He's got to shift to welcoming the boundaries for what they do for him ... the discipline of working sucks, but it enables the necessities and good things in life.

He needs to freely decide to build his boundaries. If he does that, I think he'll become a prime candidate for R. The commitment will take a lot of work, but he can do it. He might need a new IC, but he can do it.

Have you considered a joint session with his IC to see what C's goals and progress are? You can also use a joint session to enlist the IC and C in the boundary-building mission.
*******************************************

Look, some people are clueless about raising kids. I could be pretty good now, but I wasn't when my son was 4.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10440 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Althea
Member
Member # 37765
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, May 1st (Thursday)

Oh JRazz, I too have a marriage with a very similar dynamic. I have a couple of questions:

Have you tried truly detaching from Crazz's personal healing and *only* concentrated on you?

I ask because it sounds like you guys are stuck in a pattern where you are issuing demands and he is pouting like an angry child. He hasn't ever bought into the boundaries, but goes along to pacify you. He offers up enough to quiet the storm, but no more. God do I know how crappy that feels. The cycle has to stop, and it sounds like you are in a far better place to stop it.

It seems like you are stuck a bit in the caretaker role. You can love Crazz and have a positive relationship with him without being responsible for him. KWIM?

Maybe leaving is the answer, or maybe the move doesn't have to be so extreme. Maybe try letting go of some control, detaching from the p/a cycle, and watching. Please don't read this for a moment as me calling you controlling. I mean letting go of controlling outcomes(e.g. creating a soft place for Crazz to land). It took me communicating that he had not done enough for me to stay; but leaving the changes he would make from there up to him. It seems like you are headed there. (((JRazz)))


Taking it one day at a time.

Posts: 458 | Registered: Dec 2012
JanaGreen
Member
Member # 29341
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, May 1st (Thursday)

Oh honey. ((HUGS)) I don't have much to add, as the things I wanted to say have been said (I'm coming in late) but I just wanted to say I'm really sorry to see you hurting.


We're both in our 30s. One awesome 4-year-old daughter.

Posts: 6835 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Somewhere in the South
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, May 1st (Thursday)

All excellent posts.

Re: Guerrilla currency - it's like, heat of the moment bartering knowing that you may or may not shoot the person you're trading with at any given moment. I made it up - it just sorta came out of my fingers.

Crazz does have severe ADHD. He is on Adderall for it, and Lexapro for his anger. Still, there is a world outlook that formed from his having it and going most of his life undiagnosed.

As for seeing a male counselor, it's an option, but I have to say... he's as good at charming men as he is charming women. He doesn't do it on purpose - except for where he knows he has a need for everyone to like him. I guess what I'm saying is that while it's not deliberately deceitful, it is a protective mechanism rather than a genuine characteristic that just comes naturally. If that makes sense. Regarding men, if he doesn't care what you have to say he will ice you out with a blank stare and two deaf ears. If he wants you to like him, he will smile and laugh and his blue eyes will sparkle and regardless of orientation people are hypnotized by his charm... and something to do with an innocence or "simplicity" that he radiates. Babies love him. All of them. Love at first sight.


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 2:15 PM, May 1st (Thursday)

I understand exactly what you are saying Jrazz. That is why I asked. We suspect HL has ADHD, he is not diagnosed but has all of the signs. He is working to correct a lot of the issues with it, and works on recognizing things that he does because of it. Still there are things that happen because of it that can be hard to deal with.

Does he have any idea that you are getting this close to the end of your rope?

Putting all of these issues together that he has, the bottom line is, he is going to have to want to change in a big way. And from what I have seen, and from what you have said, I don't see that yet. It may take you leaving, or you two may have to D before he gets that his behavior has consequences. Or he may never get that. At some point you will have to decide when enough is enough for you. Living with this is very hard, I know.

When they do decide to change, they go big. Ask HL.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, May 1st (Thursday)

I agree with TG. I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

When they do decide to change, they go big. Ask HL.

I didn't want to give anyone the impression that p/a behavior is hopeless. I've seen first hand that's not the case either. My husband is less p/a than I am now. He hit his rock bottom and knew he had to change.

Hope Crazz will find that too.

[This message edited by DixieD at 2:33 PM, May 1st (Thursday)]


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
Althea
Member
Member # 37765
Default  Posted: 2:50 PM, May 1st (Thursday)

Just to pipe in and say that my WH is also making major changes in the p/a department, but it also took him hitting rock bottom and me letting him.

Also, about a year ago Hard Lessons gave me some incredibly insightful advice on dealing with my highly conflict avoidant and p/a husband. I am looking for the thread now to post here.


Taking it one day at a time.

Posts: 458 | Registered: Dec 2012
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

I almost hate to bump this topic because I know you must be absolutely exhausted at this point. I've been watching it for the past days but not at a device really suitable for typing a response.

Nonetheless, the topic has already gone in the direction of the main question I wanted to ask you: Is this p/a?

It certainly sounds like it to me. You will have to ultimately decide because what changes between just an unremorseful WS and a p/a one is the payout from the behavior. They're both manipulative and crazy making but the reasons/motives are entirely different. (And how you respond to them is different as well.)

Let me start by saying something that's probably going to incite the masses: I understand Crazz's point. I also think it's valid.

That doesn't mean he's conveying it effectively.

Nor does it mean that his boundaries are good.

It just means that he may be coming from a totally honest perspective within him. Misguided? Yes. Lacking intimacy? Yes. Dishonest? Yes - but he likely isn't aware of that.

Does that help to explain any of your confusion? Your mixed feelings for the relationship? Your mixed feelings for him? If I may suggest, shelf that for now. That sense of pressure to either leave the relationship or make it better is what is causing YOU to ride the rollercoaster. If you can change your perspective from a participant to an observer, you will find your entrance and exit from the ever moving jump rope. (And since I have harped on it so, and speaking from personal experience - I assure you that this is a place you can find your own personal growth. )

I live with a very p/a man. They're odd birds because they can be the sweetest, most thoughtful people. They can also do things that make you absolutely nuts and bring out the absolute worst in you. You will likely never have a true and deep intimacy with them. That doesn't mean NEVER...it just means that it won't be a level that you achieve. It's something you appreciate when it comes and you let go when it leaves - kind of like owning a pet butterfly. For some people that idea would be intolerable. Due to logistical circumstances that strongly encouraged me to have to accept this, I actually now feel quite enlightened by the experiences. I found more freedom by not having to strive for the ideal - something I realized that I had been doing all my life. Of course you'll have to decide that for yourself, Jrazz...but I do believe that it will come to you.

So in the interim, let's talk about how to just observe p/a behavior...

The nature of the p/a is to not take responsibility for their feelings. In fact, it doesn't even occur to them that they have any control over their feelings. They hardly can even see or understand that those feelings actually belong to them. So they do things to get you to express what they are feeling.

Think back on your most recent interactions. Did you feel almost provoked? I know that you didn't respond in the manner you would have preferred when discussing the weekend childcare. Do you feel that you were set-up? How many times do you feel Crazz's "attempts" are misguided - hey, I'm at least telling you about the female co-worker - yet internally you know that there is just no way this charming man could then be so...well, stupid. All roads lead to rome - yet none of the pieces really fit.

When you find yourself here, feeling this - this is the first sign that your strings are being pulled. This is the internal alarm to shut-down reaction systems and instead become just an observer.

Crazz: I think I'm going to work in the garage this weekend. Baby Razz will be fine.

Jrazz: Really? You must feel like you have a lot of things that need to be done.

Crazz: Well, yeah. I do. I didn't get to do it last weekend because I had to work.

(Maybe he's mad about not having time.)

Jrazz: Could you do it Sunday instead? Baby Razz and I will go to the park and you won't be interrupted at all then.

Crazz: No. I want to do it on Saturday. What's wrong with Saturday? You're just worried that I cannot take care of Baby Razz.

(Ok...maybe it's a parenting issue that has him upset.)

Jrazz: Absolutely not. I think you're a great dad. How would you supervise Baby Razz?

You get the idea. Getting to the heart of the matter is like peeling an onion...something he will likely be willing to do so long as he has the emotion unexpressed. However, the moment YOU take on the emotion - ie, I cannot believe that you would leave Baby Razz alone in the house while you are outside working with loud power tools!! What in the world would make you think that would be ok??! - he is satiated. (See...she never lets me have time/trusts me with the kid/listens when I talk/(fill-in-the-blank). You, on the other hand, are a whirlwind of emotions...none of which really make any sense to you.

If he is p/a, he WILL (1)set you up to (2)express what he feels.

The key is to not take the bait.

You have to be prepared to LET HIM CHOOSE.

That sounds like you aren't. It's not that. It's that he's creating a situation where he doesn't have to. Don't let that happen. Make him own it fully; it's the first step toward him having to also accept responsibility for the resulting feelings.

So, if he stands firm with wanting to work in the garage while he's got the kid, either let him manage it or make other arrangements. (And the absolute truth in that matter is that you either do trust him to supervise Baby Razz - regardless of what he's saying to you now - or you don't. If it's the latter, you need to have made other arrangements anyway.) Let him go with the female co-worker - because if he does think that's a good idea then that's telling you more than you putting a stop to it anyway. Don't give him if/then scenarios. Don't talk him out of it. Offer alternatives where appropriate (ie, Sunday garage instead of Saturday) but otherwise simply say, OK. In fact, when I am feeling my strings pulled, OK has become my first response - even when it's not ok.

If this does fit and you choose to go this direction, be prepared for things to get worse before they get better. That day he came home for lunch? Yeah. Times 10. Times 100. When you start forcing him to own his choices, it gets rough. (Forcing = you not taking them on.) When you stop expressing his feelings for him (by becoming an observer rather than participant), it gets really rough for a while. A true p/a will up the ante - pulling even crazier stuff. I DO believe there is a tipping point but it can take years to get there. And a lot of hurtful things can happen that make it sometimes hardly worth the effort. Again, logistics played a large part in my situation. It also helps that when H isn't in an "avoidance of emotion" that he's also a genuinely nice guy. I love him always - and I like him most of the time. I also strongly felt that life was bringing this lesson to me; it was something I just intuitively knew I needed to learn. So I very much felt that changing my situation would really be doing nothing more than changing logistics - that the lesson would just come in another form. The one good thing is that the more skilled I became, the less the subsequent antics bothered me. There were many times that my ego felt I was putting up with shit that I shouldn't be putting up with - but my spirit was saying, Eh...not really that big of a deal. Most of the time I really like having a pet butterfly. It thrills me when it shows up - and when it leaves, it reminds me that I am not to cling. And somehow in that, I think I've found the safety that I was once thinking I could only find in intimacy.

Hugs.


Posts: 7682 | Registered: May 2005
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

Wow ^^^^ all of this.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5094 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

God, truthsetmefree, are you available as a counselor? I'm reading and it's just like "True. True. Yep. That too." Sigh.

So I am slowly learning to let go of feeding him his line, and I can see because of his...um, lack of maturity that he will not make the most appropriate decisions until the bottom is either hit or near. When it comes to the marriage, I'm willing to let him choose to jump in the shark tank because I completely get that I can't be his hall monitor for boundaries. If I let go and he ends up with another trollicorn, it would be a relief on some level that I'm not crazy and he can't be trusted and I'm justified to move on.

He is a true p/a, the most p/a I've ever seen in a human. Ever. So much so that if I've pointed out his p/a that day, he will call me p/a at least twice within hours to try and throw it back at me.

Me: "Can you hand me that towel please?"

Crazz: "What, are you saying I need to dry something? NOW who's p/a??? GEEZ."


At this point I actually just laugh at that. I've stopped explaining the difference between addressing something directly versus indirectly. It doesn't matter.

A true p/a will up the ante - pulling even crazier stuff.

Like I mentioned, I'm willing to lay the marriage on the train tracks. I am less willing to lay my daughter on the train tracks. I can't be like, "Ok buddy, I'm going to leave you alone with her and you do whateverrrrr you want. Bye!" just to test the theory. She has gotten hurt - REALLY hurt - because of his accidental negligence. When she was 4 weeks old I had to throw a bridal shower for my sister. (Love her but the timing was pretty awful) The day of the shower it was 98 degrees, and the place we were throwing the shower didn't have A/C so Crazz offered for her to stay home with her in our A/C. I left for 6 hours, and he took her in her carrier out in our garage and worked on his car.

To this day he will still not accept how horrifying that was. Their little bodies can't regulate temperature, and it could have been a disaster.

Then there's the time when she was 2 and he let her close a heavy metal gate on her own at the park and she lost the tip of her finger while he was playing with someone's dog.

She fell off the couch ALL the time before she was 1 because he was really into what he was watching while he was watching her while I was grabbing two seconds for myself.

So yeah, really shitty precedent of putting her life in accidental danger. I will be his fucking mom if it means protecting her. I'm just trying to find the balance between never leaving her alone with him ever, which isn't feasible, and making a 4 page list that he is not to deviate from that I will check in on every second I'm away. As she gets older she will hopefully learn her own boundaries for safety, but you can't expect a 4 year old to do that. Jesus.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 10:51 AM, May 2nd (Friday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

God, truthsetmefree, are you available as a counselor?

Learned this all pretty much the same way I learn everything - the hard way. I'm glad if some of it is resonating with you.

Ok, the issues with the baby - potentially two different things we are talking about here.

Some people just aren't good caretakers - even with the best of intentions or a vested heart. If that's the case, that sucks for you at this time because you must bear the sole responsibility. Do the lists actually work? That's a serious question. Because if they don't, then that needs to be addressed because no matter what, they have a cost. A cost to this p/a interaction for sure, but potentially a cost for your daughter.

In answering that question - and please don't flog me - let me give you another question to merely ponder. I don't know the answer...I'm not making a "subtle" suggestion to you. It's just a genuine question because I've only got your side to base my impression on and I certainly don't want to give you one-sided (and subsequently, bad) advice: Are some of your issues with Crazz's parenting having to do with he doesn't do it the way you think it needs to be done? I'm not talking about how he cuts her hot dog - I anticipate those differences. But is he genuinely not reliable for her safety? I ask because you love and concern for her is readily apparent - so I cannot imagine you leaving her at any time in a situation that requires a "four page list" (yes, I get that you might have been sarcastic ) for her safety. Just something to think about. The good thing about this is that often P/As actually have a valid point in their thinking/feelings. They aren't necessarily just selfish, manipulative, crazy-making Mr. Hydes. But because they are really crappy in talking about stuff as it's a problem, it does fester and goes so far off track from what it originally was that it's hard to see any validity. Underneath all the layers, there was stuff that my H. was absolutely right to feel angry/hurt/upset about. There was stuff that I was absolutely wrong in doing...stuff that I needed to change. It was eye-opening to say the least.


Posts: 7682 | Registered: May 2005
gahurts
Member
Member # 33699
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

Ok I have really been struggling with some of this. Especially the suggestion that he wants to work in the garage while BabyRazz is inside playing and/or watching TV. I really don't see an issue with this (and I know I am in an extremely small minority here) ASSUMING that he would come in every 15 - 30 minutes and check on her to see where she was and what she was getting into. With all my kids I was not always in the same room with them and sometimes even outside cutting grass or something but I would check in on them frequently so that I was comfortable that they were OK. And with multiple kids you have the added advantage that a fight could break out at any time, especially when one is ADHD and prone to outbursts.

But this!!!!!

When she was 4 weeks old I had to throw a bridal shower for my sister. (Love her but the timing was pretty awful) The day of the shower it was 98 degrees, and the place we were throwing the shower didn't have A/C so Crazz offered for her to stay home with her in our A/C. I left for 6 hours, and he took her in her carrier out in our garage and worked on his car.

To this day he will still not accept how horrifying that was. Their little bodies can't regulate temperature, and it could have been a disaster.

Then there's the time when she was 2 and he let her close a heavy metal gate on her own at the park and she lost the tip of her finger while he was playing with someone's dog.

She fell off the couch ALL the time before she was 1 because he was really into what he was watching while he was watching her while I was grabbing two seconds for myself.

So yeah, really shitty precedent of putting her life in accidental danger.



This totally changes the situation. If she could be out in the heat then she could have gone to the shower. She lost the tip of her finger??!?? She fell off the couch more than once?? This is serious. Wow! I am really surprised he is that inattentive that she really has gotten hurt.

Earlier on in this thread, someone posted that maybe your fear of having to co-parent with CRazz might be preventing you from making the decision to leave. Well if you do make that decision I strongly recommend that you have all the documentation and evidence in hand and use it to write up a custody arrangement that you can be comfortable with. I don't want to start what-iffing just suggesting that you not let the fear control you but rather you control the situation with documentation. And please understand - I hope it doesn't come to this. I really don't. You've posted some really good things in the past too and I hope you guys can work it out and get through it all. I'm pulling for you both. At least you know you are working your hardest. He clearly needs to step it up on his end.


"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indominable will" - Mahatma Gandi

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - Aubrie


Posts: 3443 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Georgia
DixieD
Member
Member # 33457
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, May 2nd (Friday)

Wow, truthsetmefree, that was great! Glad you posted. I could relate to a lot of it. I think it's a common dynamic and and people have no idea what is going on or why they feel frustrated or angry…. or whatever most of the time and it wasn't their emotion to begin with.

One of the things that worked in my favour, and that's not really as positive as it sounds -- it was hell getting to this place -- was that my husband ended his affair on his own. His choice. That got some of the ball rolling. The ante was revved up during his affair, not after, as many other spouses of p/a experience.

I had hit my limit, dropped the ball and walked off the field. When I did that, even his affair wasn't as appealing anymore because I stopped being an (unknowing) participant in the tug of war. Where's the fun in that? After the shock of dday wore off, I was back to that place again and that brought on another level of growth.

He was c/a and p/a so didn't switch to aggressive aggressive behavior (that's my style). He was more subtle and sneakier than that. I was lucky if heard what was bothering him 2 weeks after the fact and by then I didn't care anymore.

I'm not sure if I agree with levels of intimacy not being achievable though. I've seen that's possible. My husband really blew wide open emotionally after dday and now he has access to a lot of emotions and wants to talk about them in the moment. It's interesting getting used to that as the new normal. I'm the one that's behind on that path now.

I think without an affair and a dday all the trauma with that, he wouldn't have changed. And I wouldn't have either. But I still have a very hard time being and observer and not a participant..….perhaps why I'm posting on this thread again

I feel for you Jrazz. It's a hard cycle. Another way I was lucky (again not the right word), I didn't have kids to worry about. That's a whole other level to it all.

More hugs and strength for today.


Growing forward

Posts: 1767 | Registered: Sep 2011
truthsetmefree
Member
Member # 7168
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, May 2nd (Friday)

DixieD - glad you posted! Two things -


I'm not sure if I agree with levels of intimacy not being achievable though. I've seen that's possible. My husband really blew wide open emotionally after dday and now he has access to a lot of emotions and wants to talk about them in the moment.

This is so encouraging! (And so happy for you!!) I've seen more and more of this in my own relationship (and I do believe it is largely because I have become safer for H - if only because I, too, dropped the ball and walked off that field). I didn't mean to suggest that it was entirely impossible. I should clarify - for me, I had the hardest time giving up MY idea of it (which was also tainted because I equated intimacy with safety). I also have a very hard time with clinging. So, yeah...I guess maybe those things were MY lesson.

Secondly, the observer/participant aspect - I meant that specifically in regards to when the p/a issues are playing out. Not as a whole in the relationship.


Posts: 7682 | Registered: May 2005
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, May 12th (Monday)

Hey everyone. I've been trying to take the time and REALLY read what everyone has posted when I get the chance. I just can't believe how much love and insight there is here - I'm so grateful.

http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

I FINALLY got around to reading this - it is amazing. I'm going to ask Crazz to read it with me because it puts things in such a clear, effective way and really sheds a lot of light on this whole situation.

Answering the question of whether Vrazz's safety is truly in question around him - I'm not sure how to answer that. You really have to be here to see it. He loves her with every fiber of his being, but his FOO issues coupled with his ADHD et al make him a scary person to leave a child with, plain and simple. He's not risking her health and safety every second of the day, there are just these moments of complete and utter lack of judgement that I cannot begin to understand. He was watching her at a friend's house and she was swinging and he went to adjust her booty so she wouldn't fall off the swing, but he was doing it one handed (no time to put the beer down) and accidentally shoved her off the swing and onto her head. I hear her screaming from inside the house and run out to her (more like teleported) and she's on the ground sobbing and he is already mad at ME. "SHE was squirming. I was trying to help her. It was an ACCIDENT!!!" I didn't even notice him until I realized that he was raging to his defense as I was consoling Vrazz in my arms. She was fine, just scared and a little sore. I just cared about how she felt, and he just cared about getting in trouble - and I have actually programmed myself not to address my anger at his carelessness until I have cooled off JUST to keep him from flying to the defense, but he does it anyway.

We had a lovely mother's day - he and Vrazz made breakfast and a photo-shirt. It was a lot of effort and I think that's all because he can feel me detaching. It's so hard to see him panic to pull it together because there is always a part of me that wants to give us another chance, but there are those concerns which feel more etched in stone than the "new" behaviors that arise in crises and ebb after the panic subsides.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 1:52 PM, May 12th (Monday)]


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
lynnm1947
Member
Member # 15300
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, May 13th (Tuesday)

ADD can account for a lot, JRazz. I live with a man who is diagnosed ADD, but doesn't take drugs for it. He thinks it's kept under control by his diet, and I admit, he certainly is better if he stays away from all forms of gluten.

My S/O's ADD drives me CRAZY!

His efforts to "help" around the house drive me crazy. While he can be the sweetest, most loving person, sometimes his help is laughable. He owns every tool known to man, but can never get around to actually using them or if he does, the results are mind-blowing! Not in a good way. Luckily, I'm good with tools.

His impulsivity drives me crazy. For instance, this weekend we have 16 people to dinner at the country place. The menu has been set weeks ago, and all our friends have added what they will bring to a spreadsheet that S/O is privy to. What does he do? Goes out and buys 16 baking potatoes and 20 ears of corn, without "remembering" that 1) his friend G is bringing the baking potatoes, 2) corn is not on any of the meal menus, and 3) the corn will be crap by Saturday night, 4) when will I find time to cook the corn, and 5) where in the hell do I put all the other food in the fridge that now holds all the unnecessary vegetables? If this were the only time he has done this, I'd understand. But he does it ALL. THE. TIME. One day I came home to find he'd installed new speakers in our bedroom--by stapling the speaker wire to my newly painted beautiful crown moulding. That one made me do some serious deep breathing. He buys things he doesn't need, so my place gets junked up with all his impulse buys that he uses twice and discards. I have threatened loss of body parts if he starts to junk up my new country place.

His lack of boundaries drive me crazy. I regularly have to murmur "boundaries, honey" to him when he opens his mouth at one of the fundraisers I have to attend and out comes the most freaking inappropriate remark. There is no brake on his mouth. And, like CRazz, he can icily cut you off at the knees if he knows your facts are incorrect. Won't just suck it up! Oh, no, out comes the ADD and the boundaries disappear. Luckily, his boundaries--so far at least--as far as fidelity is concerned appear to be firmly in place, but the inappropriate remarks can extend to women. "Wow, I need sunglasses" is one remark I overheard when he encountered a woman with a bright yellow evening dress. He didn't know the woman from Eve. Oy!

His lack of focus drives me crazy. Every year for four months, every weekend, every evening, I have to listen to "I have to do my taxes". Then, of course, he has to do everything but. He can have a list of twenty things to accomplish any given week, but only accomplish 2, and those are not necessarily the most important ones. He has no idea of how to prioritize--and he will actually actively AVOID doing the most important tasks and the ones that will take the most time. He promises to replace a battery in our home alarm system, but then for months (unless I do it myself), I have to hear "Low system battery" every freaking time I set the alarm. Now, this attribute might be genetic. His mother, probably ADD as well, is a world-class avoider. I'm afraid to drive with him because since we have been together, he has had 6 minor accidents that can be directly blamed on his lack of attention/his magpie mind. "Oh look, a shiny bauble!" I cannot imagine him ever having to mind children. They would drown in their baths while he concentrated on the shine of the faucet.

His lack of time perception drives me crazy. He has absolutely NO idea how to gauge how much time it will take him to accomplish anything. As a result, he is always late. Sometimes, this is because he didn't leave enough time and sometimes it's because he added a few items to his list of things to do because......well.....because. In the meantime, I am waiting at home for him to bring home the car because he said he'd be back at 3 p.m. so I can go to the dentist. We agree we'll leave for the country early, at 7 a.m. Sometimes it's 1 p.m. before the car hauls out of the driveway and even then, we'd be later if I haven't finally cracked and loaded up the car! If he were responsible for picking up kids after school, I can't even think of what horrors might ensue!

His lack of organizational skills drives me crazy. I am an organizer par excellence, if I do say so myself, so this really, really bothers me. If he has 6 errands to run, he will drive helter-skelter all over town instead of plotting where each errand takes place and taking a planned cyclical route. It's almost as if he finds it impossible to take one single goal and break it down into manageable tasks, so the goal seems too hard to accomplish and he gives up until it absolutely has to be done. Or he will get so hyper-focused on one of the tasks that it seems to become the goal, instead of keeping his eye on the overall prize.

Does this sound like CRazz? If it does and your life also included infidelity, I feel so very sorry for you. As it is, I have to remind myself --OFTEN--that I love the man and his limitations are part of him. If infidelity were thrown into the mix, I can almost certainly say that I'd be outta there in an eye blink.

[This message edited by lynnm1947 at 9:49 AM, May 13th (Tuesday)]


Age: 64..ummmmmmm, no...............65....no...oh, hell born in 1947. You figure it out!

"I could have missed the pain, but I would have had to miss the dance." Garth Brooks


Posts: 7308 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Toronto, Canada
2oldforthis
Member
Member # 19825
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, May 13th (Tuesday)

I really appreciate this thread. I understand we have gone into many different conversations however it has been extremely helpful for me. I believe my WH has ADHD never tested. He is also PA. The infidelity has caused me to really look into things differently about our relationship and how we are dealing with each other.

I had heard a famous person on TV talk about his ADHD and making bad choices. He said he doesn't think beyond. It was eye opener for me.

How much of his thinking do you contribute to the ADHD?

[This message edited by 2oldforthis at 10:04 AM, May 13th (Tuesday)]


He did not see what he had in me, what I saw in him I did not have!

Love kills slowly.


Posts: 1648 | Registered: Jun 2008
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, May 13th (Tuesday)

what truth posted is so eye opening for me. INAB is classic P/A so I feel everyone's frustrations, angst, and pain.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 5989 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Jrazz
Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

I think that the ADHD is a significant contributor to the way he thinks and behaves... and he is trying to control it with medication. His psychiatrist wanted him to do exercises to improve focus... but it's like, instructions?!?! for THIS?!?!? It's like asking someone who's skydiving to hold still in midair for a second. Almost physically impossible.

This is where the compassion comes back in. And the unconditional love part. I promised to love him no matter what, and if a large chunk of this is a focus disorder then I need to love and help him through it... to a degree. When I picture separation I don't see NC in the remotest... just space to save my sanity. I don't think I'll ever not care about him or want to help him if I can. I've definitely been grappling with depression, and he doesn't understand it or display a lot of compassion for it, but he seems to love me despite the "inconvenience."


Cherish those who seek the truth but beware of those who find it. - François-Marie Arouet

Posts: 17917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Morhurt
Member
Member # 40166
Default  Posted: 4:15 PM, May 13th (Tuesday)

I just saw this thread for the first time and only had time to skim through but I did see mention of lack of empathy and ADD so... Have you seen this really short (ADD friendly) video Jrazz? My H is good with empathy but it still helped us both gain a clearer understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw


Me: BS
Him: FWS
M: 15 years
4 lovely daughters
Working to rebuild.

Posts: 960 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Canada
Topic Posts: 189