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User Topic: I am the Monster
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:46 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Society hasn't changed and it showed yesterday at MC. I know I said I was going to take a break, but I couldn't sleep at all last night.

I am not sure MC is actually worth doing now...

I understand some things she said, but all in all, it made me feel like I am a bad person.

I didn't propose the way she wanted, didn't do this, don't do that, I am childish, and I care about objects, and so forth more than I did her...

And during one of her IC sessions, the counselor apparently told her she was Merciful for forgiven a lot. I laughed right in her face and said the last 3 years was not merciful.

This really should be part of my other thread, but I mean it never fails. Because the HUSBAND didn't do A,B,C, she go gets O,M, and have S,E,X.

[This message edited by LostSamurai at 7:01 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
devasted30
Member
Member # 39439
Default  Posted: 7:04 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

In the cold light of day, do you think any of what was said yesterday could be true? I know it's hard to accept responsibility, but maybe just maybe......
That, of course, does not excuse her actions. The crossing the line and cheating is All On Her. But, did she ever voice these things to you before. Did you ever address them? Facing our short comings -well, that's extremely hard to do. And when we are reeling from the pain and anguish of an affair, it's probably harder still. I know I am about 70% responsible for the problems in our marriage. It's a hard thing to face. I am sure most of friends are pretty sure I deserved this. That my WS was justified in going out and cheating on me. It's a very hard thing to accept about oneself. I was a monster.
Only you know the truth about your situation. If you want things to get better in or out of your marriage, you must first heal yourself. Is there anything that needs fixing??? I seriously doubt you were a monster.

Posts: 1146 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Ontario, Canada
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:15 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I have anger issues, which I am going getting help for.
I did admit and apologized for somethings. The 1st proposal was not my strongest. Proposed in a parking lot. Second time, I actually asked her dad and then went to a park when it was snowing after our dinner dating anniversary and proposed at this gazebo.

Maybe I am not cut out for this marriage thing after all. At the time, I enjoyed of lot of the things I did and felt supported by her doing them by now it's like why care if the marriage is going to be ca-puts.

I will change what I can.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
devasted30
Member
Member # 39439
Default  Posted: 7:27 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

And sometimes it's them!! (Hugs)

Posts: 1146 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Ontario, Canada
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 7:33 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

if she found the proposal(s) that inadequate she didnt have to marry you. but to marry you and then grumble about the proposals years later ...


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 543 | Registered: Jan 2014
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Lost Sam-
MC doesn't always feel good to the BS, because they are not going to hold your hand and tell you what a raw deal you got. And you did -- no doubt. What your wife did was horrible, terrible, and really inexcusable. It is up to you to decide if you are up to the challenge of reconciling, and it sounds like it might be a deal breaker for you.

But I am going to be honest - your posts are very victimy. You do have to, as they say, "Own your shit," if the marriage is going to work. You have to pull your weight, too. This is a bitter, bitter pill for BSes who have been so hurt. Believe me, I know.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1944 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
knolls
Member
Member # 39242
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I am not certain that monsters care and have as many feelings as you do
If you were a true monster none of this would matter to you. You would be sleeping at night. You wouldn't be apologizing for any past issues
You are not a monster


I am stronger than the storm.
I take every experience in my life, no matter how horrendous it was, as a learning experience

Posts: 67 | Registered: May 2013
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:50 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

But I am going to be honest - your posts are very victimy. You do have to, as they say, "Own your shit,"

That's because I have this FOO issue where I feel inadequate about myself, and always have. I been working on it, but it is hard. I realize I made a lot of mistakes in the marriage.

It is hard to own up to your side of the marriage when in your mind, you think logically "No matter what I did, I didn't deserve to have this happen to me for so many years."

I would reconcile, if she actually wanted to, but truthfully based off what she said, I was thinking, why did you marry me then.

her answer "I loved you then."

I take responsibility. I figured a lot of times as long as I wasn't doing porn or anything like that and taking care of things we were good...


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
lilacs40
Member
Member # 31314
Default  Posted: 7:51 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

You're not a monster but chances are there is some stuff that you need to own and work on.

And as others have said it is a bitter pill to swallow. You have to try and heal from what has happened AND try to work on you all at the same time.

It's not easy but nothing worth having is. Whether its a new and improved M or a new and improved you or both. It's worth the work though.

(Hugs)


I wish I could just stop I know another moment will break my heart too many tears too many time too many years I've cried over you

Posts: 299 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: IL
Edith
Member
Member # 38337
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I am not sure MC is actually worth doing now...

Oh heck no!! An analogy would be if a person was in the ER bleeding to death and the doc decides to do a pedicure. Please do not subject yourself to any more of this garbage. Proposal inadequate?!? REALLY?

I went to MC a few times in the very beginning, where H told therapist and me he was NC. Then he would talk to and text OW about how it went.

No way would I recommend you go back. Save your money for anger management, and as far as future relationships, maybe watch the Oprah channel so you can learn how to propose. Good grief. That is just insane.

E.


Lies are manipulations. Always.

Posts: 379 | Registered: Feb 2013
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Whether its a new and improved M or a new and improved you or both. It's worth the work though.

This right here says it all. Thanks.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I am not sure MC is actually worth doing now...

NO It's not, you know why??? Because she is a self centered brat who honestly believes the nonsense she spews. MC only helps when both parties are doing the work of R. Or are trying to D amicably. She is doing neither.

I understand some things she said, but all in all, it made me feel like I am a bad person.

Um NO - This is her manipulating you yet again. This is why the 180 is for you. The less you engage the less she is able to do this. You are good man who tried hard. HER choices to cheat had NOTHING to do with you. Remember that. They were HER CHOICES. She can blame you, but at the end of the day, no man will ever be enough because she is broken.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8433 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Dreamboat
Member
Member # 10506
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Wait, she had the A because she did not like your proposal??!! Hell, I never even got a proposal OR a ring and I never even thought of cheating.

You know and I know that excuse is crap. It is blameshifting at its finest.

For the other things, you know you had (have?) anger issues and you are seeking help for that. Same with porn. She may have had legitimate issues with either or both, but that does not excuse her A. And she will look foolish if she continues to harp on those issues when you are actively seeking help. Did she have any other legitimate issues? If so then examine them and try to change for YOURSELF, to make yourself a better person for you, not for her.

I do not think this MC is working for you as an MC, your IC, and her IC. That is really a big conflict of interest. You need an IC who has your back and an MC who is neutral. So this IC cannot have your back in your IC, her back in her IC, AND be neutral in MC. Humanly impossible.

I also wonder, based this and upon many of your other posts, if this is a religious counselor? While I think there is a need for advice from such professionals, they often do not get the type of training that a non-religious licensed therapist get.

LS, you are not the monster here. Your unremorseful WW paints you as a monster to justify her own terrible behavior. Unremorseful WS cast blame for everything, every little and big thing, on the BS. I am quite sure I was to blame for both the Tsunami and Katrina When you are faced with this, 2 things can happen: The WS becomes remorseful and sees how unproductive it is to blame the BS for the WS's shortcomings; Or the BS walks away and allows the unremorseful WS to look foolish declaring the BS's misdeeds while the BS is living a truthful and authentic life.


And it's hard to dance with a devil on your back
So shake him off
-- Shake It Out, Florence And The Machine

Posts: 17628 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: A better place :)
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Oprah channel

Really, that woman for advice on how to propose...
IF we R, Maybe I will re-propose to her or maybe I will have her propose to her, but if I move on and find someone I will get a plan to sign it in the air or something.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Blobette
Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

My WH proposed in a service road that he pulled me into when we were walking down a street one morning. Completely spontaneous proposal. (I didn't say yes, BTW.) Of all the things I can think of to criticize my WH about, that is probably the last thing that comes to mind. Personally, I always have a sneaking suspicion that women who are fixated on "the whole package" -- the proposal, the wedding, the dress -- have an overly romanticized and unrealistic view of marriage, too. (That's a totally sweeping generalization, I know.) Does your WW perhaps think that you are supposed to make her happy? If she's unhappy, is it your fault? That's a pretty typical Wayward phenom. We all have failings. As devastated said, there are doubtless ways that we could do things better and some BSs no doubt are at fault in neglecting the marriage. It's worth thinking about that, of course. But she's never going to give you a realistic perspective on this until she gets out of her Wayward mindset and starts taking responsibility. That includes realizing that she's blame-shifting and that her perception of the marriage is skewed based on what she's done.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1057 | Registered: Aug 2012
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Did she have any other legitimate issues?

She felt like I valued martial arts over her, video games and I cared more about things such as the latest electronic device then her.

She felt like I never listened, and I didn't know her because some of the gifts I got her in the past didn't seem like they fit her.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Does your WW perhaps think that you are supposed to make her happy? If she's unhappy, is it your fault?

I would say yes and yes. If I am do something to upset her, she is unhappy.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Althea
Member
Member # 37765
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

LostSamurai, this sucks. Your wife is selfish, self centered, and immature; AND she cheated on you for your entire relationship. You cannot reconcile with this person.

You could wait it out, both get into IC to work on your individual issues, and see how things go. I would not waste another second or cent on MC. It is an exercise in futility.

Gently, I'm going to agree with bionic gal here. You seem to recognize you have a lot to work on, but are using your WS as an excuse not to do anything. Stop. Forget her. Fix you for you. For your child. For a future relationship with a healthy WS or someone else.

Stop engaging. 180. Work on you, for you. Trust me when I say you won't ever be sorry you did. It is the only win-win in this horrible situation.


Taking it one day at a time.

Posts: 457 | Registered: Dec 2012
painpaingoaway
Member
Member # 27196
Default  Posted: 8:22 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I don't know your story at all, but whining about a proposal????? WTF has happened to the world? Are people really this shallow and unrealistic? Does she have any clue what real life is about? Does she believe that what she sees on TV is real life? Does she believe in fairy tales? Does she think she is Cinderella? I know I'm old as shit, and probably a fuddy duddy, but what in the world has happened to VALUES?

Personally, I always have a sneaking suspicion that women who are fixated on "the whole package" -- the proposal, the wedding, the dress -- have an overly romanticized and unrealistic view of marriage, too.
Agreed.


me BS female 56/him WS 59
Married 33 years
D-day July 09/he gave me his slut's STD
Watch my movie: "My wayward husband's adventures in STD land":
Episode 1: youtu.be/9Jv0-d_CdYc
Episode 2: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tz822H82Gk

Posts: 7056 | Registered: Jan 2010 | From: Coastal South
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I am done waiting. I am being active and working on me.

I am working on anger, doing things around the house on my own. Fixing things on my own and getting things done without having to wait for someone to say something.

I am no means the idea husband. I am sure, if some of you were to marry me, you might understand her.

However, I am not saying the blame is on me. I am however saying, that a lot of the things in the marriage were probably centered around me which made things what they are now to a certain degree.

We went through a lot of issues when dating and brought a lot of resentment towards each other when we got married and just ran into a bunch of hurdles and didn't go over, under or around. Just ran into them and dragged them on and on.

The problem for me, is this latest one is a huge huge blow and I want to be able to survive it and restore my family but I don't think I have the strength to do so.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
devasted30
Member
Member # 39439
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

As hard as it is for you to accept your flaws, your WS is, obviously, having a hard time accepting hers. She is still justifying. After all, if you were perfect then she would be the "bad guy" for cheating on you. And well, we can't have any of that, can we? (insert sarcasm here please). It is so much easier to see things when your heart is not involved. I have followed you a little while on this site and have read your profile. I am far enough along in this journey to know that everything is not as we say. We all colour our stories to make us look good. It has taken me months to see how horrible I was to my WS. I knew I was hard before, but looking back, wow, I was a fucking bitch. Also, we are all at different stages of our grief and healing. Some are further along then me, some not nearly where I am. And unfortunately, we taint our responses with where we are that day and how we are seeing things at this point in this process. Sometimes, when I read the responses to someone who is opening themselves up and asking for help, I shutter at how hard and nasty others can be. Then I temper it with where they might be (emotionally) at that time, and realize that it has a huge significance to how they are doing that particular day. And when we are down, we come to this site for many reasons and one of them is for validation. To prove to ourselves that we matter. That we are significant. Needless to say, we are not necessarily 100% truthful at all times. The hurt is so intense that we colour our story in our favour. With a WS, I would bet that they under estimate the malignancy of their affair while they justify the reasons for it. I do not claim to have all the answers to everyone's problem, but I do know some things for sure:
1) no matter how cruel or insensitive we were in our marriage, nothing justifies cheating. Leave if it's that bad.
2) no one who hasn't been through this understands the pain we are going through
3) the WS always needs to taint his/her outlook on the truth of the marriage for justification
4) the only way for any of this to get better is to work and work damn hard on ourselves
5) some marriages just cannot be fixed
6) very few people can self medicate themselves. We all need help and a therapist is a good start. But all therapists are not created equally, so you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your "prince/princess" therapists. (I myself am on #3)

I seriously doubt you did everything wrong. I seriously doubt you were a monster. I do believe that we are all capable of doing some monstrous things. Look at me. We all do.
Take heart in the fact that you are trying. You are on the right track. No one can ever be faulted for at least trying.


Posts: 1146 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Ontario, Canada
sunvalley
Member
Member # 42952
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I don't know your story but I believe you indicated that the proposals were 'not adequate' to her, yet you also mentioned that they were pushed for by her. I do get this sense as someone else said that she had this idealised view of M in her head and when she didn't get things 'her way' she used it as reasons to rationalize her behavior. Yes, there are things that each person can do in the M to repair the M and you need to be open to examining your issues in order to do so, but a MC session focused around all the ways that YOU let her down is not healthy IMO. I went through similar with a MC that WH and I saw. She told me I was spreading tar on the current M by being focused on the As (1m after Dday#2, which was only 2m after Dday#1 and dealing with PTSD). She also told me a lot of other things that made me feel badly about myself. I felt like I was the one holding us in the past and ruining the M. We switched MC and it was night and day. The new one challenges me as well, absolutely...asking questions like 'if you're self esteem is strong then why do his actions affect it', things like that but in a way that will help me grow, not shame me. If you are not happy with this MC you can and should switch. They are not the end-all for opinions and if WS has found one that feeds her logic and nurtures her sense of the victim role in the M, then it's time to change. I think as long as you're taking care of yourself and learning from your experiences then even if you had problems in the M that you're willing to fix, you're headed in the right direction.

Posts: 519 | Registered: Mar 2014
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)


Really, that woman for advice on how to propose...
IF we R, Maybe I will re-propose to her or maybe I will have her propose to her, but if I move on and find someone I will get a plan to sign it in the air or something.

See you don't quite get it yet. You still are listening to her words.

The thing is when it's real true love, while grand sweeping gestures may be nice, it's not what matters. What matters it the promise of commitment. It's like she is trying to justify all of her behaviors because it wasn't enough. But here's the catch, when she said yes, that was it. She committed to you and you alone for now and eternity. Some faiths even believe that engagement is when the real promise to God is made that is when rules M apply. Her saying yes to either of your proposals was her making that promise. She can't go back and say because you didn't have a 5 sting quartet, flowers falling from the ceiling, and Celine Dion singing in the background, that the promise wasn't real.

NO she doesn't get a do over.

You on the other hand have given her ample opportunity to do over, and work toward R, problem is her version of R is Fuck you and your needs, and sweep her actions under the rug, and lets go back to the way things were before. That doesn't work, and YOU ARE WORTH more.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8433 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 8:54 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

LS, sometimes it's easy for us to let our WW confuse the issue. You know why? During the M, they spent an inordinate amount of time installing *guilt* buttons for them to push at their leisure. Little things to start usually. Gradually getting bigger and bigger. Yep, you have anger issues, you used porn. You recognized the behaviors, took responsibility, made amends and changed the behaviors.

Brother, she fucked another man. Her whole *holier than thou* attitude crashes and burns when you stop to realize that she has taken NO responsibility for her own actions. None of this is her fault. If that argument truly held water, couldn't an argument be made that you wouldn't have anger issues or used porn if she would have put out more?

How far back do you go? When will you hold her accountable? You held/hold yourself accountable. Is she that special that she bears no responsibility?

ETA clarification

[This message edited by 5454real at 8:59 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2803 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Ambergray
Member
Member # 40778
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

I'm sorry. but I don't care if you proposed in a garbage dump and you are full of faults, there is no justification for an affair! period!!!

If she was unhappy with you, suggest counseling, talk more, separate or divorce even, but don't have an affair.

Its fine to own your own stuff, but you are not responsible for her affair. You proposing bad doesn't even come close to what she did.

If the proposals were so terrible, why did she accept? Ugh!!!!


Me-38
WH-38
Dday June 2013

"What lies behind you and what lies in front of you, pales in comparison to what lies inside of you. Ralph Waldo Emerson


Posts: 91 | Registered: Sep 2013
gonnabe2016
Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

And this post shows exactly why I advise to NEVER do MC with a WS who is not remorseful.

Every individual is different and has his/her own likes/dislikes, wants, and needs. Marriage is about acceptance and compromise.
I HATED how much my stbx traveled and I brought it up every time he told me about some new out-of-state account that he was getting ready to sign. I was told "I travel. It's my job. Deal with it." Yes, his response was fucked up and shitty, but I weighed (what I thought at the time) was the *good* vs. the *bad* in my life and decided that his travel wasn't my hill to die on. I *accepted* it. I didn't run off to find some other guy to be with while my husband was gone....I went about life as I knew it with no resentment. (I have TONS of resentment about it now that I have the truth about what my life *really* was, but whatever.)

My stbx's perceptions were sooooo twisted that I couldn't rely on anything that came out of his mouth. If I complimented him 99 times and slightly criticised him ONCE.....it turned into me *always* harping on him. He also told me that I needed to start *liking* his family, which was news to me because I always thought I liked his family just fine (with the exception of the one person who I despise).

I quit MC. It was a waste of time and money. I wasn't going to sit there and explain how stbx's *reality* was a complete fabrication that he made up in his mind because of his own extreme dysfunction. It also led to a LOT of unwarranted brain damage being heaped on me by stbx.
One of the biggest problems was that there might be a *grain of truth* in the "complaint".......and that is where the BS gets 'pulled in' and mindfucked -- a mindfuck that goes COLOSSAL once an MC gets involved.

Example: my stbx said that when we argued, that I would go on and on and not let it drop. An MC is going to classify this as a communication problem. It wasn't a 'communication' problem, it was a my husband is a 'self-centered douchebag' problem. Stbx was *right* in that I would go 'on and on' -- because I wouldn't *drop* something when he decided he didn't want to talk about it. He didn't want to have to *answer* to me, he didn't want to *listen* to me, and he sure as hell didn't give a shit about *understanding* or *working with* me......the arguments usually ended with him turning bully on me and telling me that he was going to divorce me.


tl/dr: I could have summed up this whole post with two sentences: Don't subject yourself to the emotional torture of doing MC with an unremorseful WS. Just don't do it.


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8001 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
abbycadabby
Member
Member # 27428
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

And this post shows exactly why I advise to NEVER do MC with a WS who is not remorseful.

She feels as though your sins against her, the (in her opinion) lackluster proposal, the porn, the anger, the focus on games/martial arts/electronic devices over her, your _________ (insert whatever here), have given her just reason to cheat. She feels as though she was justified in having an A.

The problem is, you guys are doing it all wrong. She has to decide she's committed to saving the marriage first, to doing the hard work, to really digging deep to figure out why she cheated, to do whatever it takes, to show true gut-wrenching soul shattered remorse, before you can attend marriage counseling together and expect to get anything positive out of it.

Right now you're drowning, LS. You're floundering in this sea of uncertainty, trying desperately to gain purchase so that you can gasp your next breath. Figuring out and acknowledging what you did wrong in the marriage at this particular moment is like asking a drowning man if he's hungry. Does that sound reasonable to you? NO! You'd get that drowning guy a flotation device and rescued and stabilized first. You'd attend to those immediate needs FIRST. You're the drowning man, LS. You're struggling to not sink under the waves of your WW's A, to keep yourself afloat. The things required to save you should call for next to no effort on your part- someone should throw you a lifeline and pull you in. They should attend to your immediate needs first- helping you make sense of your WW's A, coming to terms with it, determining whether or not she's genuinely remorseful, etc. Simply put, she should be owning her shit and doing everything within her power to rectify the situation. That's what will help you most right now, not listening to her selfish notions about your failures as a husband.

Now. Once you get through the worst of it, THEN you can acknowledge your part in the marriage, own your own shit, and work together to move forward. Right now, she's not committed to the marriage. She's agreed to 4 MC sessions to appease her parents, so it appears as though she has one foot out the door already.

Stop letting her call all the shots, LS. Take control. Stop letting things just happen to you. Make things happen. I'd suggest a hard 180. Trying to force an unwilling and uncommitted spouse to R won't work.

(((LS)))

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 10:37 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


Posts: 1248 | Registered: Feb 2010
Pentup
Member
Member # 20563
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

The house is burning and she is complaining about the paint color in the bathroom.


Me- BS
Him- FWS (I hope- F)

Posts: 6583 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Not Oz
devasted30
Member
Member # 39439
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

The house is burning and she is complaining about the paint color in the bathroom.

Pentup-this is the first good laugh I've had in several days. Thank you

Posts: 1146 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Ontario, Canada
ButterflyGirl
Member
Member # 38377
Default  Posted: 11:50 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)

It is hard to own up to your side of the marriage when in your mind, you think logically "No matter what I did, I didn't deserve to have this happen to me for so many years."

Exactly. Let's repeat that.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID, YOU DIDN'T DESERVE TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN TO YOU FOR SO MANY YEARS!!

Please listen to what everyone else said. MC problems come AFTER your wife takes full responsibility for her affairs and dedicates herself to R. What you are doing now is so ass-backwards and makes no sense.

1) no matter how cruel or insensitive we were in our marriage, nothing justifies cheating. Leave if it's that bad.
2) no one who hasn't been through this understands the pain we are going through
3) the WS always needs to taint his/her outlook on the truth of the marriage for justification
4) the only way for any of this to get better is to work and work damn hard on ourselves
5) some marriages just cannot be fixed
6) very few people can self medicate themselves. We all need help and a therapist is a good start. But all therapists are not created equally, so you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your "prince/princess" therapists. (I myself am on #3)

I am sure of all those ^^^ things too.

You are fighting a losing battle here. She is NOT remorseful, and you guys are wasting your breath. The LAST thing you need is brain damage right now about what YOU did wrong. GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HER.

Do you need to own your own shit? Yes.

Do you need her help to do it? Do you need her to see you work on yourself? Do you need her to appreciate it if you do change? NO

She can change for herself if she wants to. And YOU can change for YOURSELF if YOU want to. It matters NOT what she thinks of you anymore.


xBW~ 35
Two of the most darling sons ~ 10 and 7

Posts: 2231 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Florida, USA
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

You are all right. For years, I seeked validation and I tried to get it from my parents. You know what happen there. I dealt with a drunk mother and abusive angry father. I was compared to others.

I explained the reason I wasn't so pushy in the beginning of this relationship or to her standards is because as I told her I just got hurt from a girl that I went on a date on.

She basically came in and picked up the pieces and I was a little reserved. And then I figured, she was better than slice bread and I opened up my world, and like a dummy I mentioned porn and then it went down hill from there. She told her parents and grandparents, while we were dating. I felt betrayed and held on to that. I struggled with porn all the way into our marriage and yet, her reaction has been to cheat on me. She disconnected from me and went to the attention of another.

I wasn't always part of the church but I tried to forgive, but since I forgave them already before,and they walked all over me and technically I forgave her and him this time. I am not doing anything about it either way. As much as deep down inside I would love to hurt him, what would that do.

This is not just about proposals, this is truly in my opinion and I am not a shame to say. Her being weak. That is strong word, but I never felt like she was strong enough to do what was necessary to hang in there. Ever since my porn issue and her turning to her Mother and Father like she did, I assumed there is no reason to believe she would ever be support I needed through my battles. And truthfully these last months, her reaction after to ending the affair prove that.

1. After affair reaction 1: Call OM to see if he is ok
2. After affair reaction 2: Start talking to another OM
3. After affair reaction 3: Tell her MIL that she is going to work on Marriage when she is actually talking to OMs
4. After affair reaction 4: Move and Open own bank account.
5. After affair reaction 5: Do nothing while I suffer alone
6. After affair reaction 6: Tell everyone so they can feel sorry for her
7. After affair reaction 7: Says she is sorry for hurting everyone...
8. After affair reaction 8: Spend time with friends during special events...


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
ButterflyGirl
Member
Member # 38377
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Yep. Time to forget her.

And time for you to come down to D/S and open a new world for yourself.

So you like video games? How about Clash of Clans?

I'm in the "Warriors of God" clan with DS10. We rule


xBW~ 35
Two of the most darling sons ~ 10 and 7

Posts: 2231 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Florida, USA
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

And this post shows exactly why I advise to NEVER do MC with a WS who is not remorseful.

What gonnabe said.

In fact, I would take it further and say to delay MC until you are ready and able to acccept your FWS as an equal and respected partner in the M.

LS, I recomend dropping the MC idea for now and working on you, regardless if you decide to Not Divorce for now or to proceed for Divorce.


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4128 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

you think logically "No matter what I did, I didn't deserve to have this happen to me for so many years."

This is true, you did not deserve it. That doesn't mean you can't help save the marriage, if you want to. I can't tell if your W is remorseful or not. It does sound like ya'll need to be in MC. I hope for the best for you. But, getting into the "who is more right/wrong" game pre-A is futile and useless.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1944 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Here is my problem with Remorse... I want everyone to chime in on this and think real hard about this statement.

ME: You act like I should get over it.
HER: I said I was sorry.

Now she is acting all sweet to me and giving me compliments now...

Where is the remorse in that statement or actions?


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
atsenaotie
Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Where is the remorse in that statement or actions?

Remorse is a big thing, and that is a small statement. Not enough at all to see the big picture necessary to determine if remorse is present or not..

So here is my chiming...

1. Remorse is going and staying NC while going out of the way to document for BS where the FWS is and what the FWS is doing for as long as it takes for trust to begin to be restored. It is welcoming having phone messages reviewed, email accounts available, and phone logs checked as these are additional ways to demonstrate NC and healthy behavior to the BS.

2. Remorse is a WS owning the A and the internal reasons for it; doing the work through IC, reading, SI, or whatever to identify the Whys for the A.

3. Then learning new behaviors and perceptions for those maladaptive behaviors that helped to perpetuate and sustain the A.

4. Then putting in the time to practice the new behaviors and perceptions so that they become automatic and replace the prior behaviors and perceptions in most situations.

5. While all of this is going on there is a need to demonstrate to the BS that the BS is loved and desired by the FWS. This can be accomplished by learning the BSs love language, and speaking love in that language. Swinging the pendulum of focus over to the BS for a sustained time, even if this means giving up some personal opportunities.

--Ats

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:04 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


FBS 54
Separated and Divorcing

Posts: 4128 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ButterflyGirl
Member
Member # 38377
Default  Posted: 2:12 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

She's supposed to say "sorry" as many times as you need to hear it.


xBW~ 35
Two of the most darling sons ~ 10 and 7

Posts: 2231 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Florida, USA
StillLivin
Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 2:25 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Lost,
I read your posts and I just shook my head.
Your wife is not remorseful.
Your therapist is valid in wanting you to fix YOUR shit too, but not right now.
Right now, YOU should be getting the bulk of the support so that you can heal from the utter devastation of your wife blowing up your world.
Yes, some of those things you mentioned, that needs to be fixed. But did she complain and say, "Look, HUSBAND, I'm so unhappy that I'm dangerously close to either breaking my vows to you, or reassessing whether I still want to be in this M."
I'm gonna bet the answer is a firm and definite NO.
There are many unhappy spouses that do NOT cheat. Instead they keep trying to communicate, or they get out of the M with their integrity and dignity in tact.
Until YOU are healed from what SHE did to destroy you, the remaining previous issues cannot even be addressed.
If you truly want to R, great. But get a new MC and IC. One that understands better the affects of an A. Better yet, one that specializes in A's and SAs. Your wife doesn't sound like a SA, but those counselors seem to have a better grasp of what is needed to heal a soul and a M.
However, if your wife just cannot find her way towards true R, then you need to reassess if this M is what you can deal with.
You can still fix you and be a better you for a more deserving woman down the road.
I wish you the best of luck and hugs and support on the way.

ETA: Once, in our M, I was unhappy enough to consider D. Know what I didn't do? I didn't cheat. Instead, I communicated with my H. It took about 2 months of trying to get through. Finally, he got it and he made some changes, and I had to make some too. If he hadn't made those changes then, I would have D him. Probably should have, he started his A 2 years later. C'est la vie....but I left the M with my integrity, honor, and dignity completely in tact.

[This message edited by StillLivin at 2:30 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2231 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

But I am going to be honest - your posts are very victimy. You do have to, as they say, "Own your shit," if the marriage is going to work. You have to pull your weight, too. This is a bitter, bitter pill for BSes who have been so hurt. Believe me, I know.

We all come at these things with our own biases and perspectives, and this one is always hard for me to be okay with because of my own experiences.

My wife and I went to MC before dday. I was pissed off about facing down my issues, I won't lie, but I faced them down. I struggled through that shit because I wanted things to be better - mostly. There were times when it hurt so badly or I was so alone and depressed that wanting things to be better wasn't enough, so instead I wanted to be right. There were other reasons at various points but I quit smoking cold turkey, dealt with excessive drinking, dealt with a whole lot of shit big and small.

After dday when we went to MC the MC started - though a lot more reasonably than LS's MC did - to try and delve into that shit, and my wife stopped her and said "We're here because my response to our place in life was an affair, SG has already put in years of work while I ran away. We need help building trust and getting through this damage, I don't even want to look at that stuff right now." It really left an impression because after years of being superman without so much as a backward glance from her, it felt like I had literal definitive proof of no matter what I had done, nothing would have been good enough.

So while that stuff needs attention, the wake of an affair is a terrible time to give it attention. Because it *does* become a who is right/who is wrong blame game, simply by association. If this was counseling for domestic violence, the therapist wouldn't be asking the wife with the bruised face and busted arm what her character flaws prior to the assault were and what she might have to do to work on them - or ask her abusive husband those questions, for that matter.

There is no point in him looking at this from a perspective of "If this marriage is going to work" so long as his wife continues to be validated in her petty, selfish, cruel behaviors. It certainly didn't help me and I have a list longer than the above that feels too much like bragging to go down. Hell, you know what it accomplished for me? Full readiness to walk out the door and say goodbye to my wife forever. Which wasn't a bad thing at all. Him owning his shit won't make any difference to his marriage right now, unless it's to strengthen the concept that his wife isn't worth it.

I say all this because of my on experience bias. I know we're all different, and it may not apply, but the same can be said for the converse. If that's the right word here, I've got sneakers on the mind for some reason. Not the movie.

eta:

When I say "owning his shit" I am not advocating for abandoning responsibility for personal behavior; I am advocating for keeping the focus on the bigger problem of the moment.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 2:28 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)]


Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.

Posts: 7444 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillLivin
Member
Member # 40229
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

If this was counseling for domestic violence, the therapist wouldn't be asking the wife with the bruised face and busted arm what her character flaws prior to the assault were and what she might have to do to work on them - or ask her abusive husband those questions, for that matter.

YESSSS, THIS^^^^^^

So while that stuff needs attention, the wake of an affair is a terrible time to give it attention.

And more of this too^^^
Well stated StillGoing!


I don't need further confirmation of what a fuckwit he is. I already have plenty, thanks very much. -SBB
D: 7/2/2014

Posts: 2231 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: AZ
Tren0R201
Member
Member # 39633
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Remorse is not a one time I said sorry.

Remorse is not acting sweet and doing the dishes every night

Remorse is every day, every second, every action, every decision, every word uttered totally focused on writing the wrongs and HELPING YOU HEAL. whilst also working her butt off to heal herself and her issues.

You would know what remorse looked like if you saw it, right now it looks like you're looking for a flicker of anything remotely resembling remorse and not finding it.

4 D-days and yet you're the one meant to get over blow after blow to fix the family? How many car crashes before you say no more, you can't can't keep hammering the dents out then letting her drive the car until another crash.

As for proposals? The greatest gift you've given is four chances to reconcile. For that alone she should have been on her knees grateful.


Posts: 145 | Registered: Jun 2013
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

LostSamurai-

I want to share an older post with you that I think is relevant to your situation. I had similar issues in MC, but not to the same degree. I'd let the MC know that pre-Affair issues are *off the table* until the affair is dealt with.

Credit to wincing_at_light:

It sounds like you're getting the right mindset after initially being bombarded with tons of bad advice. Which is not to say that it's *completely* horrible advice, because giving your WS space to feel safe enough to share the truth (as they see it, not to be confused with objective truth) is a valuable tool in, you know, getting information you can work with and base practical decisions on. It's akin, in my mind, to telling an average looking girl how gorgeous she is so she'll take off her pants. She gets a little of what she wants so you ultimately get what you want. If you keep telling her, "Eh, you're sort of average and I've had better, but it's not like my weiner will rot off from touching you."...that's probably going to end in a romantic fail. Same way if you blow up at your WW every time she says something stupid, insensitive, self-serving or Lake District caliber foggy. You can take all of those gems, put them in your journal and use them as excuses to forget your anniversary or her birthday next year. It all comes out square in the end.

I've heard on lots of other forums that you can't punish and reconcile at the same time. It's a popular theme, especially from WW's on those sorts of forums who want to blame their husbands' failures or the state of the marriage for their out-of-character behavior. I happen to disagree. You just make sure you don't call it punishment. Call it "acting from hurt" or "triggering about x", where x just happens to occur at convenient times for you. There's a driving need in a great many BH's to obtain some sort of equity out of this process, to level the playing field. This is usually dismissed with a trite "nothing is ever going to make you even, so get over it" sort of expression.

I disagree. Even is whatever you say it is. Some guys pursue that sense of justice with RA's. The outcome is rarely what they expect it to be in terms of satisfaction, so it is considered a fail. I think RA's are more a failure of imagination on the justice/vengeance scale, and that's why people tend to be disappointed by them. They don't truly address the need for equity. A big part of what galls BH's over time is the sense that their wife got one over on them, that she has access to all of this secret information, and he can never have it. He's supposed to become Mr. Emotional Transparency and a surrogate female BFF so she never feels unfulfilled again and gets the Best. Marriage. Evar., and thus be content because she's not going to cheat on *that*. LOOK AT HOW MUCH HAPPIER WE R NOW THAT YOU DO EVERYTHING I WANT AND R SO AFRAID OF MY WILD SNOG-SEEKING VAGINA THAT YOU WILL NEVER DARE FAIL!!!!

Which, of course, ignores the fact that most of us were pretty decent husbands in the first place. This is one of the major issues I have with most infidelity recovery philosophies. They imply that the BH must clean up all of his shit, every mean thing he ever said, every insensitive thing he ever did and convert himself into the emotional version of Fabio in a way that precisely fits his wife's taste...and her job is to stop fucking other people. As if her fucking other people was the only thing she ever did wrong in the marriage, while *everything* he did was wrong. People conveniently forget that for every WS out there with a list of grievances for their spouse's failures, there is a BS who has been married to that WS who has a list of grievances JUST AS LONG that we accepted, tolerated and loved them through in exactly the way they did not accept, tolerate and love us. Instead, our shit became the legitimate fuel to justify their behavior.

Hello goose, meet gander. If you make me pay (which you have, by fucking other people as a way of dealing with it) for everything I've done wrong, then you've stated definitively that the way relationships should work is that people make others pay for their failures. No double standards. Either that, or we have to agree that I have now paid in full for everything I've ever done wrong, and for the rest of our married life, you have to shut the fuck up about it, because I've paid. It's not my fault if your method of exacting payment didn't work for you. You can't expect me to pay twice.

Which is a really long way around of saying by focusing on you, on what makes you happy and what gives your life meaning outside of the marriage, is a really good start. I was so sick of reading about relationships, about marriage repair, about understanding love-fucking languages, knowing your wife's menstrual cycle, understanding her FOO, blah, blah, blah, by about a year out, I was ready to join a monastery. Or get an 18 y.o. girlfriend who wasn't old enough yet to realize how fucked up she was by being human. Toss up, there.

Instead, I went back to grad school for fun. Wrote a couple of novels. Decided I could play video games if I wanted. Finally bought MLB Extra Innings so I could watch all the baseball I wanted. In other words, I invested my energy in finding out what brought me happiness instead of burning myself out trying to figure what would make her happy, and thus make my marriage a safe place.

Because one thing I learned: when you like yourself and you like your life, one part of it (like your marriage) going into the shitter doesn't take away your joy from the rest of it. It gives you the objectivity to decide what you want to keep in your life and what you can excise because it's become more trouble than it's worth.

It is infinitely better to be married because you want to be there but don't have to be than to feel like you can't imagine a future where you're not married to this person. Working on you is a way of preventing those sorts of failures of imagination.

And working on you is not fixing those things your wife has identified as problems with you. What the fuck does she know? This is a woman who handles life's curveballs by doing impersonations of the Holland Tunnel with her vagina. She is not qualified to diagnose other people's dysfunctions, let alone yours, whom she has identified as someone who is worth, or deserves, to be traumatized and punished for all the things she doesn't like about you.

You work on the shit *you* want to make better about yourself. Maybe you want to learn how to shoot automatic weapons. Maybe you want to study knife fighting or get some cool ninja-hacking skills. Maybe you realize that you're not assertive enough in the workplace and need to work on speaking up for yourself. We've all got a list of things we'd like to try out, to see if the destinies fit, but we put them on the back burner once we got married, because we didn't think our spouse could handle something so radically different. Guess what? Now is your time to explore those things. What's she going to say? "Who you're becoming makes me feel scared and helpless, like I don't know (how to control) you anymore?"

Guess what, I had all of those feelings from you fucking other men, and I had to grow up and deal. Welcome to the adulthood club. You should be getting a beanie and vest in the mail shortly.

So that's what part of my process looked like. We're six years out. Happily married. My wife has done a ton of work on herself. I might get into that later.

You heal. Life goes on.



I refuse to let a wound ruin me.
**Guts over fear.**

Posts: 2064 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 3:16 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

LS, flat out, no remorse.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2803 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Lost,

IMO, some of your posts say to me you're letting the MC control your life, and others say to me that you're letting your W control your life. Have I missed where you've talked about what you need in the MC sessions? Have you pointed out that your W has to change, to, to become a woman you want to be with?

As I wrote elsewhere, up to now, you've vented about your W, and you've let yourself get roped into an MC process that leads only to rugsweeping and stuffing your feelings. You seem pretty solidly stuck in the Drama Triangle, and that just leads to more hurt.

You can go on like this, and you'll keep getting support from SI if you ask for it, but your life won't change unless you change yourself.

Talk to your IC about changing your life. Talk to him about co-dependency, about the 180, about getting yourself heard in your M, and if necessary total detachment. Don't spend much time analyzing why you're the way you are. You want change now. If this IC won't help, find a new IC.

You're the only one who can get you unstuck.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10057 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
ButterflyGirl
Member
Member # 38377
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)

Just curious, are you still "remorseful" for your porn use? I think she's just using that as a weapon against you now, but do you throw back an "I said sorry already" or have you been working on it and still say a genuine sorry to her if you think she is truly hurting from it?

Cause your wife is ALREADY telling you, "I said sorry already," about her affairs, which means UNremorseful. Looking at it from here, she's not trying to help you heal. At. All. She is NOT ready to R yet, and you shouldn't be offering it to her right now unless she is begging you for it.

But no one said you have to file for D immediately, but I think you DO need to do the 180. Just take a breath already and give yourself some space from her. FOCUS ON YOU. That was an awesome post from wincing_at_light.

You work on the shit *you* want to make better about yourself. Maybe you want to learn how to shoot automatic weapons. Maybe you want to study knife fighting or get some cool ninja-hacking skills. Maybe you realize that you're not assertive enough in the workplace and need to work on speaking up for yourself. We've all got a list of things we'd like to try out, to see if the destinies fit, but we put them on the back burner once we got married, because we didn't think our spouse could handle something so radically different. Guess what? Now is your time to explore those things

THIS ^^^^^^


xBW~ 35
Two of the most darling sons ~ 10 and 7

Posts: 2231 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: Florida, USA
LostSamurai
Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, May 22nd (Thursday)

I am still remorseful about my porn use. I wish I never done it. I wish I was addicted to drugs cause the secret to that is to not get the substance but it is stuck in my head and i have to replace it with other things.

When she brings it up. I said I am sorry, and I am constantly taking precautions to make sure I don't fall back into it. I have a boundary system and all types of applications for monitoring my internet use.

I am working on myself. I am not PUNKING out about my side of the street.

I am doing a garden project that I think is awesome, and I am working on getting my body back in shape. I am obese by doctors standards so I been doing paleo diet and strength training.

I actually told her that she shouldn't even want to Reconcile the other day. It would be pointless for her I said because she is not willing to do anything and she doesn't love me. She even hasn't read anything I sent about infidelity or made an effort to understand how I could feel. She just doesn't want to deal with that.

I took Reconciliation off the table based on her reaction. She doesn't care about me like she thinks. If she did, she would be asking to reconcile and so forth. The only person who has been begging is her father. In my opinion, from things I read, it is over. They call what she did an EXIT AFFAIR. Well, there is the door.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Topic Posts: 46