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Wayward Side
User Topic: thoughts on The Fog
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 6:49 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I read the General & JFO forums. I find they help me gain a greater sense of empathy, a better understanding of what I've done.

I do, however, stay out of most of the threads; I only comment when it's something related to depression or compartmentalization or such.

One that caught my attention was the thread in General re: not believing in Wayward's Fog.

I just don't know how to process that. From what I can tell, it exists, and I say this because I experienced it.

I can't use my fog as an excuse for withholding details, as I have not disclosed my A. So there's no reason for me to "pretend" like I experienced it. Who would I be lying to? Me? I know I had an A. I'm not trying to "get out of it," or minimize. I've taken much greater personal ownership of my A since I found SI. But I truly can't recall much of what I did anymore. I had much greater recall when I was in the A. I'm sure I could track receipts & pull together a timeline, but there would be many gaps.

Is this part of the "neurons that fire together wire together" thing that Waywards mention? I just tried thinking back over the course of the A, and I can only come up with about six interactions. We had quite a few more than that. I know that. If I went through receipts, I could pull them out, and have an "oh, yeah! That's right. We did X, Y, Z." But for the most part, those encounters are gone from my brain.

The science shows that A's trigger the same part of the brain as drug use. And I think A's likely affect everyone differently--you can have the casual user, someone who takes a hit & never uses again, a functioning addict, a hardcore user, and so on. Fog, to me, is part of that...it's comparable to not remembering everything when drinking. In my drunk state, I have better recall of other drunk states, but sober, it's a bit fuzzy.

When people deny the existence of the fog, stick to the "you made rational, calculated decisions" mantra, it comes across as denying all manner of things that cloud judgment, make rational/logical choices damn near impossible--drug addiction, alcoholism, depression/other mental illness, and so on. They're real. They exist. They affect everything. To me, it comes across as saying--"think positive thoughts & you won't be depressed" or "just quit taking drugs if you don't want to be on them." It just doesn't work that way.

I don't know where I'm going with this....I suppose it's just frustration having been on both sides of the brain thing. I've experienced it chemically off, and I was fortunate to be able to use ADs to set it right again. I don't recall everything during the "off" time frame. Some of the only A-related memories I can pull up with ease are high-risk situations. And I know with 100% certainty that even though I knew, intellectually, that my husband & children would be affected if I got caught, that I was completely incapable of processing what that actually meant. Any thought of "I might lose my family" triggered the same response in me as "I need milk from the store." Now that my brain is "right" & I'm not allowing myself to wall off, "I might lose my family" triggers all manner of responses in me. I see that as a huge step in the right direction. But it was completely impossible for me to comprehend that fact without AD's, without breaking the fog by withdrawing off contact, all the things that proved necessary to end the A. Rambling. Just putting it out there.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 7:18 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Split,
I am so happy I can finally post on something you wrote -- no stop sign! Hooray!

Thank you for this post. I am one of the BSes who has defended the "fog" over the past week, as my H felt almost verbatim what you wrote. From an outsider's perspective it is crazy - and healing from it is crazy. For him, he says it felt like one, long, destructive binge. For me, every discrete event hurts. It is hard to talk about, but I have accepted his description of his state of mind during that time, and I don't understand BSes who just want to deny the reality of what their spouses are telling them.

The drug metaphors are so apt - I am thankful for our wise MC who pointed it out very early in our healing. And I so, so appreciate what you say about how you were thinking about your family. It validates what my H has tried to express, and while it is so hard to hear on one level, it is better than assuming that my H was just a cold, calculating SOB who fully understood the damage he was doing. Not that the end result isn't very similar, but really - it does matter. It is the difference between being married to a sociopath, and being married to a fallible human being who was in crisis.

Thanks again for your post. And I don't blame you for not posting much in General - it scares me in there, even as a BS!

[This message edited by bionicgal at 7:21 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

Posts: 2157 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

It's always an internal debate with topics like this re: whether to drop the stop sign or no.

With some topics, it's easier to leave it up, as I need to limit the number of 2x4s I receive.

And with others, I waffle because of the triggery nature of the post. But I decided to chance it with this one & leave it off. I'm glad it helps, bionicgirl.

I don't understand BSes who just want to deny the reality of what their spouses are telling them.

I would imagine it's because we lied through the entire A, so why would we be telling the truth about our state of mind? On the surface, it reads like an out, a denial, a plausible excuse. It can easily be trivialized down to "I couldn't help myself." I don't know. All I know is it was my reality, and I know I'm not alone in that.

Maybe it's like all things...you can't fully understand it unless you've BTDT. For instance, I can't relate to other versions of A's, especially the ONS with a stranger variety or any others that involve intentionally seeking out an AP. Even as a Wayward, I just don't get it. It's not something I can conceptualize.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
steadychevy
Member
Member # 42608
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I am a BS. I have posted on another of your threads, Split, and disagreed with your stance on disclosure to your BH. I still maintain my position that he has a right to know and the long term consequences may be made worse by delaying. On other posts I have been quite angry with your position.

That is not why I am joining your thread this morning. I want to thank you for these observations. I have been in the camp of my WW making calculated,cold hearted decisions. I understand my WW has many FOO, CSA, rape. I know that but still believe she made decisions at various points to cross the line.

My WW cannot recall details of when they had sex. She cannot even recall having sex except vague impressions unless there was something unusual that stuck out and often it was not about the sex but something else that happened. My WW and the OM had frequent sex over 3 1/2 years or so. They travelled together all over the province and stayed in motels and his place was just 5 minutes from the head office on her way home. They never drank so alcohol never clouded the issue. However, it all started with "happy hour" after work and alcohol was involved with the first kiss but not for actual, physical sex.

Your comments in this thread gave me something more to think about and maybe a different perspective. I have read a lot about the fog and believe it exists but did not have the perspective of it that you gave here. I bothered me that she found it so easy (she agrees with easy) to betray her marriage and not thinking about consequences. Your thread gives me something more to process.

This is one of the benefits of SI, I think. You and I disagree, I think, on numerous positions. SI provides a safe (mostly) forum for different opinions and thoughts and experiences or quandaries to be expressed and explored. This thread is something that could help me tremendously and, hopefully, my WW. Thank you for posting it and thank you for no stop sign.


BH(me)63; WW 57; M 37 yrs
DDay1-01/09/13;DDay2-26/10/13;DDay3-19/12/13;DDay4-21/01/14
LTA-09/02-06/06? OM - COW
EA different COW 2001-2014? PA AP jealous of EA PA
"dates" w/3 lovers post engagement;ONS w/stranger post commitment, lies, li

Posts: 177 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Canada
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I don't understand BSes who just want to deny the reality of what their spouses are telling them.

I would imagine it's because we lied through the entire A, so why would we be telling the truth about our state of mind? On the surface, it reads like an out, a denial, a plausible excuse. It can easily be trivialized down to "I couldn't help myself." I don't know. All I know is it was my reality, and I know I'm not alone in that.

I should backtrack just a little. .. As a BS I must admit still struggling with personally relating to and understanding the place my husband was at. I still have to have my feelings about it -- just because he didn't really comprehend other than completely theoretically that doing X, Y or Z was wrong at the time (which is crazy making, and unsettling) he and I both have to deal with the facts of what he did. It is excruciating at times. So, I do understand focusing on the discrete events/choices as a BS, because in the end, they do matter.

But, I do feel that our long and repetitive talks about where he was mentally at the time have allowed me a compassion for him that I would not have otherwise. And, quite frankly, I wouldn't be able to stay married if I couldn't find some kind of reason for compassion for him. I haven't forgiven him fully yet, but I want a real, authentic marriage to someone I know intimately, and that means truly understanding his reality during the affair, and after.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 8:28 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

Posts: 2157 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

there is no way I would have stayed with my wayward hubby after two affairs had I not experienced myself the Fog of a wayward. It IS like a drug. I get it. However, the consequences of being on drugs is that people chose not to be part of your life when you snowplow through their lives to get your fix.

But, I understand the hit off the crack pipe.
And it's one of the reasons why I hate that he works so closely to aforementioned drug.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I am not a fan of the fog theory.

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 12:37 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I knew the A was wrong.

I knew I had to be stronger than the pull of the A

I felt exactly this as well. I don't want to excuse any waywards because we do know right from wrong. But, I do see it as an addiction. And it had nothing to do with the AP but everything to do with me.

[This message edited by rachelc at 9:10 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
numb&dumb
Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 9:35 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I think a lot of the "fog" talk from BS comes from a place of understanding or rather not understanding it. Unless you've experienced it firsthand you don't understand how it works. It requires altering ones reality to survive the choices made in seeking the destructive behavior.

If the "fog," is used as a justification that is where it becomes an issue for many BS. The perception for some BS is that the fog becomes "another excuse," to justify dry wayward behavior. TT, breaking NC or refusing responsibility are all things that could be/have been used under the guise of said, "fog."

I don't doubt it's existence, but empathy for any BS is a hard road to travel. Early on it is next to impossible to feel any empathy for someone who has made the choice to seek out an A.

Short answer it is easier to deny it's existence and be angry with the WS than to look at the many levels going on. It is oddly comforting when things are black and white so sometimes people try to draw a fine line and make sure that black and white don't mix.

Trauma does crazy things to a persons brain and trying to alter a very painful reality is one of many ways to cope or mitigate the stress it causes.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, May 27th (Tuesday)

When people deny the existence of the fog, stick to the "you made rational, calculated decisions" mantra, it comes across as denying all manner of things that cloud judgment, make rational/logical choices damn near impossible

When people claim that "the fog" made it damn near impossible for them to exercise good judgment, they run the risk of appearing to blame their wrongdoing on external forces beyond their control.

"The fog" is convenient shorthand for the conditions that existed at the time we made those rational, calculated decisions to betray our partners. Maybe due to a chemical imbalance, a clinical psychological condition, emotional immaturity, whatever...we convinced ourselves that cheating was a logical means of relieving our distress.

So yes, the fog exists, and Split...IMO you''re still in it. Heck, I sure was till at least four months after DDay, and perhaps I still am.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1252 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Agree 100%:

This is one of the benefits of SI, I think. You and I disagree, I think, on numerous positions. SI provides a safe (mostly) forum for different opinions and thoughts and experiences or quandaries to be expressed and explored.

This may well be true:

yes, the fog exists, and Split...IMO you're still in it.

I have no doubt that there are levels to this. I'm very new to the process overall. Hmm. How to explain. When I think of an A now, or even AP, I respond physically & emotionally in a way that didn't exist in the thick of it. It's almost as if I now have all the parts of the decision-making process back. The choices we make in life should make sense, be rational, and some of the internal feedback we get as we make those choices is on the emotional or "gut" level. I have absolutely no doubt that I have a long, long way to go to fix me, but for the first time in years, I feel like I have the tools that make it possible for me to do that.

Also, this isn't my intent:

When people claim that "the fog" made it damn near impossible for them to exercise good judgment, they run the risk of appearing to blame their wrongdoing on external forces beyond their control.

That's where it gets so tricky to delineate. Even in a fog state, I'd intellectually recognize that my actions were wrong. I did them anyway. Looking back, it's like I stepped into a sociopath's mind for a while. I operated without conscience, without emotion. I could not process effect. That internal feedback was, for all intents & purposes, dead during the thick of the fog.

It doesn't excuse it, it certainly doesn't make it OK. It simply helps me process what happened, why I was able to allow it to happen. Without that understanding, I'd be doomed to repeat the cycle again & again. It's no coincidence that I found my way here around the time that my brain had fully healed & I'd weaned off AD's. I could feel again. Nothing was leveling me out, dulling me--not years-long depression, not 18 months of AD's. For the first time, I was recognizing the gravity of my actions toward BH, confused as hell about AP, and completely lost. SI has been a godsend in terms of helping me cut through the noise much faster & begin the process of fixing my thinking, of fixing me, and hopefully, of dealing with the A in my M. I'm still one day at a time with that one.

It's why this remains truth, fog or no:

the consequences of being on drugs is that people choose not to be part of your life when you snowplow through their lives to get your fix.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 2:07 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

That's where it gets so tricky to delineate. Even in a fog state, I'd intellectually recognize that my actions were wrong. I did them anyway. Looking back, it's like I stepped into a sociopath's mind for a while. I operated without conscience, without emotion. I could not process effect. That internal feedback was, for all intents & purposes, dead during the thick of the fog.

It doesn't excuse it, it certainly doesn't make it OK. It simply helps me process what happened, why I was able to allow it to happen. Without that understanding, I'd be doomed to repeat the cycle again & again.

This. It really strikes a nerve with me. I'm going to have a long chat with my IC about it. Might even be brave and share it with my BH...


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Posts: 496 | Registered: Dec 2013
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I see other BSs posting here so I hope I am okay to post a response.

For a looong time after dday, I embraced the fog.

It was a tremendous relief to cling to the notion that my always logical husband had temporarily become some type of mindless pod person who was not in control of his faculties.

Later, however, I came to see it as an excuse.

It seemed similar to the blameshifting (i.e. my WS said things like, "I did not think you love me anymore" Or saying the OW was "persistent and sexually aggressive." She was, but so what.)

Here is why I believe the fog is just an excuse:

My husband said, at a counseling session, if I were to have a revenge affair it would destroy the marriage completely.

I agree, but that is not the point. If he believes in said "fog" than he would have to understand that some counselors talk about the BS fog, too, and he would have to understand that the BS has a revenge affair while out of their mind in the fog.

I don't believe in the BS fog, either. I know a revenge affair is and would be wrong. I know it would compound the damage my husband's affair caused. I would divorce rather than cheat.

Still, on many forums and as mentioned by many infidelity counselors if a BS engages in a revenge affair, many times the original wayward will seek a divorce immediately. No reconciliation discussed or possible.

If the fog was so all powerful and so all consuming, wouldn't a wayward be totally accepting of a BSs revenge affair and chalk it up to the "FOG"?

But that is not the case, and that is what suggests to me that the waywards do not feel possessed by the fog when they have an affair and that is why a BSs revenge affair does so much damage to them.

Lastly a fog of some type could be used to explain every socially unacceptable behavior in society today.

But if we did that, wouldn't there be total breakdown of society as we know it and likely total chaos.

We would have people saying I molested a teenager because I was in the fog. I busted my infant's lip because I was in the fog, I stole money from my crippled grandma, 'cause I was in the fog?

In the end for me the notion of the fog prevents healing.

I would heal much faster if my husband would simply admit he was being selfish and he felt entitled because other men were doing it, etc.

He actually did say he felt entitled, and that other men did it, but then he still used the fog in the end.

Thoughts?

[This message edited by seethelight at 2:24 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
yearsofpain25
Member
Member # 42012
Default  Posted: 2:21 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Is this part of the "neurons that fire together wire together" thing that Waywards mention? I just tried thinking back over the course of the A, and I can only come up with about six interactions. We had quite a few more than that. I know that. If I went through receipts, I could pull them out, and have an "oh, yeah! That's right. We did X, Y, Z." But for the most part, those encounters are gone from my brain.

My WW cannot recall details of when they had sex. She cannot even recall having sex except vague impressions unless there was something unusual that stuck out and often it was not about the sex but something else that happened. My WW and the OM had frequent sex over 3 1/2 years or so. They travelled together all over the province and stayed in motels and his place was just 5 minutes from the head office on her way home. They never drank so alcohol never clouded the issue. However, it all started with "happy hour" after work and alcohol was involved with the first kiss but not for actual, physical sex.

Lets not forget that compartmentalization may play a part in the "forgetting" of certain aspects of an A. Compartmentalization can work in a number of different ways. In this case, no one likes to be painted as the bad guy. My self with my own marital issues included. A defense mechanism is to put those graphic hurtful details in a box and put it on the shelf so you don't have to look at what was done. When you don't open the content of that box, you tend to forget what may be in it. Especially the details. In my past I have said some very shitty hurtful things to my W out of spite, rejection, anger, etc. Things I do not remember saying but the moment she says them back to me I know I did say it and I will remember it. I just choose, for the most part, to not ever think that I said something like that because that would make me an ass. Which I clearly have been an ass many times in my life. If we don't think about the hurtful things that we have said and the hurtful things we have done on a regular basis (without compartmentalizing), the easier it becomes for the mind to let go of those things and push them away. "Nothing to see here. Please disperse." I'll be the first to admit I don't want to look at things that I have done to be hurtful to my wife, because that is painful for me and I don't want to visit it. The less certain aspects of an A are visited and kept in a box, the more details of those aspects will be forgotten.


25 years and counting of pain caused by mother's infidelity. Aftermath: 1 deceased sibling, 1 lost family, 3 lost souls.
"Each new day I am just glad to be alive and have survived all that I did." Ashland13

Posts: 2351 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Northeast US
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

But that is not the case, and that is what suggests to me that the waywards do not feel possessed by the fog when they have an affair and that is why a BSs revenge affair does so much damage to them.

And I will mention this again, because this happened to me I didn't buy the excuse of the "fog" because I knew right from wrong when I engaged in my affair. But I was under the influence of something. but so what, I knew it was wrong.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

And I will mention this again, because this happened to me I didn't buy the excuse of the "fog" because I knew right from wrong when I engaged in my affair. But I was under the influence of something. but so what, I knew it was wrong.

Thank you for saying you knew right from wrong. I do so appreciate that comment.

Yes. My husband was under the influence of something and that something was the chemistry of falling in love.

That is why dating when married is a slippery slope.

My husband made the decision to flirt with another women and then date while married.

His decision to flirt, while married, was made likely before the chemicals associated with early lust and love had kicked in and filled his brain.

However the influence he calls the fog was simply the early stages of infatuation.

We all go through this stage when we date someone and spend a lot of time with them and have sex with them.

That is why we vow to forsake all others, when married.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 2:40 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Regarding revenge affairs, etc. I think the thing about the "fog" in an affair, is is is self-deception at its finest. The slippery slope and gradual crossing of boundaries, (for most folks) and rationalizations get them somewhat disoriented. Someone comes and pushes just the right buttons (you are so hot, you are so smart, we totally understand each other, I've had a crush on you for years) and a wayward thinks they are special/different/not a cheating asshole. ( Sorry.)

So, this is why the revenge affair doesn't work as comparison for the most part. It is harder for a BS to wander into a revenge affair; obviously it happens. But, I think it is important to note that the vast majority of people who cheat, never thought they would. There is powerful psychological stuff going on here, and I think it is important for people to really understand their own situation for the sake of prevention. Just writing someone off as a liar and a bad person doesn't do much in the way of fostering a good relationship.

And sorry to post it here, but regarding the question of whether other people who do anti-social things are operating under a similar type of self-delusion? Probably. I stole money from a place I worked at as a student, and felt totally justified in doing it at the time. I felt bad about it too, but I had some rationalizations going on that allowed me to continue something I now look back on with shame. So, my thinking was foggy in a way.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 2:41 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

Posts: 2157 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Probably. I stole money from a place I worked at as a student, and felt totally justified in doing it at the time. I felt bad about it too, but I had some rationalizations going on that allowed me to continue something I now look back on with shame.

So, my thinking was foggy in a way.

Can you walk me through your thought process here to justify the theft?

I really do want to understand.

Also can you explain what you mean when you said it would be harder for a BS to wander into a revenge affair.

I hear BS's mention them a lot, and counselors say, it's often the first threat a BS makes on dday.

I threatened one, too, but would not follow through. It is just not me.

[This message edited by seethelight at 2:49 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

The choices we make in life should make sense

Your choice to have an A made sense and seemed perfectly rational to you at the time. Otherwise you wouldn''t have done it.

It doesn''t excuse it, it certainly doesn''t make it OK. It simply helps me process what happened, why I was able to allow it to happen.

Whenever you employ phrasing that implies you''re not taking ownership of your choices, I''m gonna throw a flag. You weren''t a casual observer, split, you didn''t "allow it to happen."


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1252 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 4:21 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

You weren't a casual observer, split, you didn't "allow it to happen."

Exactly. Which is why I personally don't buy in to the fog. Most of us made it happen. Takes two to tango, and all that jazz.

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 12:38 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Whenever you employ phrasing that implies you're not taking ownership of your choices, I'm gonna throw a flag. You weren't a casual observer, split, you didn't "allow it to happen."

It was my choice, yes, but it's not a choice I would make today. That's what I'm trying to get to the root of. My A is not known to BH. Technically, I could continue it. It's already an LTA, so I could employ the "what does it matter? It already lasted years" philosophy & do it anyway. I'm not trying to justify maintaining the A, or anything like that. The prospect of engaging in that behavior now, when my mind is well, makes me ill. I allowed myself to make that choice. I have to understand how that happened.

It brings home the point that someone made either in this thread or the one in General: All Waywards are different, even though much of our behavior may be the same. It's like how I can't conceptualize going to a bar/signing up for a match service & having sex with a stranger. Others likely can't conceive of a LTA. I can have an A & still not understand what drives others to have one.

It's not just compartmentalization, though that came into play along the way. I've lived with that my whole life. This was different. It's hard to explain. While reading JFO/General, I'll see tons of generalizations re: the A being an escape from responsibility, fun, stress-free, all that. Mine was the opposite. We fought. We had "more issues than Newsweek." It wasn't that kind of escape for me...on my end, it was an escape from having to pretend that I'm not broken. It wasn't love (though I know I thought Ioved him at one point). Especially in the beginning, he could trigger lighter depression days in me. It began as just immature joking around. Then things got worse in me & when things got worse in the friendship because AP's depression/alcoholism worsened & he withdrew, it was like my brain snapped. I became driven to get that back, my "safe" fix for a "good" day when I was very depressed, and it spiraled from there.

Another interesting point (as in, I've noted it for when I pursue IC once I get back in town): The physical sensations AP tripped in me were very comparable to the ones my molester did when I was a kid. It's not something I was really aware of at the time, but as I've been defogging, I've really put a lot of thought into all aspects of my A, and that was one that stuck out. There were things in my A that are comparable to grooming behaviors. And like in my A, there are behaviors that could be construed as me initiating/enabling my CSA experience. Obviously at 9 I could not make that choice, not in any real sense, and I know that intellectually, but the parallels now give me the heebie-jeebies.

I'd have difficulty leaving BH if I found out he had an A. That said, I struggle with revenge affair thinking because it's done more deliberately. I know an A doesn't "just happen," but at least in my case, there was a very long progression for it to get to that point. I didn't just wake up one day & decide to have an A. I wouldn't go out & have an A right now. I had to break one piece at a time, shift one variable at a time, to get to the point where that became a choice I could make. I didn't do it to get back at my husband, to leave the M, to feel better about me, or any other number of more common reasons that I read on here. I now know my why. And that's an important first step to becoming a safer partner.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

triple post

[This message edited by splitintwo at 4:52 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 4:49 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

triple post

[This message edited by splitintwo at 4:51 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
sunnyrain
Member
Member # 30164
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

*tmi

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 12:39 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


"I'm not much into health food, I am into champagne."

Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2010
RomanticInnocenc
Member
Member # 43041
Default  Posted: 5:51 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

BW here. I think A's become like addictions, I believe that there is a 'fog' as such, I think it's born from the justifications one has to tell themselves it's ok, what I'm doing is not that bad. I think you have to create the fog in order to do something that goes against your values. The BS fog is much the same, the mind creates a state in which the BS can function. Having the knowledge that someone you trusted to love you forever has committed unspeakable betrayal is overwhelming and likely to send someone over the edge if it weren't for the mind going into protection mode and dulling the senses enough to survive.

IMHO, where I get stuck, is why you allowed that door to crack enough to let another person in. The process of going into the fog, to me, seems like a deliberate choice. Like you are in a car at the top of a hill, you can see the valley is full of fog and you know you BS is down there wondering around, but you decide to drive full speed ahead anyway, running over your BS because.... Why? My answer- selfishness, entitlement, immaturity, disconnection within yourself.

I keep asking my WH why did you marry me? If you knew you were capable of this, why marry me? At the end of the day that was just selfishness too, because he wanted to, I was the constant, I was what his values and desires wanted. He never thought about what he needed to provide for me. It was all about him!


Me: BS 31
WH: 29 (theseseatsRtaken)
DS: getting close to 1
Together 10 years, married 2.
DD1: 8th of Jan 2014
DD2: 10th of Jan 2014
NC: 8th of Jan
In hopeful R!

Posts: 383 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 5:52 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

To me, fog is like the condensation you get in the bathroom after taking a shower. You know, it hangs in the air and it steams up the mirror.

'The fog' is just a nickname for the series of events (spanning a life time, years, months, whatever) before the A that allowed the WS to feel justified in choosing infidelity. The fog continues to hang around after the A, misting up the mirror because the hidden reflection is just too horrible.

The fog is what allows a WS to feel entitled, justified in their actions.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

I keep asking my WH why did you marry me? If you knew you were capable of this, why marry me?

What does your WH say in response?

Personally, I did not know I was capable of this.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
RomanticInnocenc
Member
Member # 43041
Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

My WH says he married me because he loved me and wanted to be the person he thought he was giving me. He had at the time of proposing, had phone sex and exchanged a series of explicit private messages on fb with an ex cow, who he saw as a tool to make masterbation more exciting. So he justified it by seeing it like porn. He had felt guilty, but ultimately saw it as something that was ok if no one knew. In his eyes, according to him, I was the one he wanted to make a life with, we'd been together for 6 years before he proposed and he deliberately waited to make sure we were right. Basically he compartmentalised it all, had for our entire relationship. He says he really wanted to be the man I thought he was, he had the same values as I, he just over rode them in order to fulfil his selfishness when he needed to. Now that is in the light of day he is working hard to show that the selfishness doesn't have to be his defining characteristic, that he can live by he values and be a safe husband... I'm still watching.


Me: BS 31
WH: 29 (theseseatsRtaken)
DS: getting close to 1
Together 10 years, married 2.
DD1: 8th of Jan 2014
DD2: 10th of Jan 2014
NC: 8th of Jan
In hopeful R!

Posts: 383 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
ResoluteH
New Member
Member # 39673
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

Seethelight wrote:

For a looong time after dday, I embraced the fog.

It was a tremendous relief to cling to the notion that my always logical husband had temporarily become some type of mindless pod person who was not in control of his faculties.

Later, however, I came to see it as an excuse.

It seemed similar to the blameshifting (i.e. my WS said things like, "I did not think you love me anymore" Or saying the OW was "persistent and sexually aggressive." She was, but so what.)

"Fog" is simply a label attached to what some people experience when they are having an affair. Personally, I don't think it's a very good label because it seems to imply an inability to see clearly what one is doing. I knew very well what I was doing, and I knew it was wrong. But I chose to do it anyway because I got something out of it. (One of the things our couselor coaches us to do is, in evaluating our behavior, ask ourselves, "What do I get out of it, or what does it get me out of?") I've never done drugs, but I've heard recovering addicts say similar things -- "I knew it was wrong. I knew I was hurting others. I knew I was hurting myself. But I did it anyway because the attraction was so strong." So even though I can't compare the experiences from first-hand knowledge of both of them, I think the "fog" it's much more like being on a drug. One doesn't really get anything out of being in a fog; one gets something out of being on a drug.

Does that mean I wasn't "in control of my faculties?" Not at all. But it means there was something that was so strong, I was willing to do the worst thing I've even done. Note that word: WILLING. I wasn't duped. There was no Jedi mind trick. I made the choice. But that doesn't make what I experienced at the time any less real.

As for the fog being an excuse -- maybe, but only if the WS uses it as an excuse. But again, using it as an excuse doesn't make it any less real.


Resolute Husband

Posts: 38 | Registered: Jun 2013
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 7:43 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

thoughts on The Fog
My thoughts on the fog. It is the magical, mystical thinking of some waywards. As others have stated, it is the combination of compartmentalization, denial, justifications, rationalizations, rewriting, deluded, selfish thinking that the WS indulges in. Some choose to think this way so they can do what they want to do. Some are able to convince themselves with this thinking that they "deserve" to have an affair. Some are able to convince themselves that "what they don't know won't hurt them". Some are able to convince themselves that what they are doing isn't really "that bad".

I agree with the many that have posted about it being similar to addictions. You know you shouldn't, you may not even really want to, but the payoff you get is so powerful it is hard to resist.

- "I knew it was wrong. I knew I was hurting others. I knew I was hurting myself. But I did it anyway because the attraction was so strong."
I agree with your post very much, ResoluteH. However, I would prefer the word "payoff" as opposed to "attraction" because that implies that you were strongly attracted to the AP (which maybe, in your case, you were), when in fact, I feel it was more likely it was the "affair" that was the real attraction and the feelings you get from the affair.
Does that mean I wasn't "in control of my faculties?" Not at all. But it means there was something that was so strong, I was willing to do the worst thing I've even done. Note that word: WILLING. I wasn't duped. There was no Jedi mind trick. I made the choice. But that doesn't make what I experienced at the time any less real.
Great insight, ResoluteH.

I tend to find BS's using the "s/he was in a fog" as an excuse for their WS's who are, in reality, just a big asshole more than I see WS's here at SI using it as an excuse. (Although, many WS's try to use it when they first get here, but the other FWS soon let them know that isn't going to work here.)

As for the fog being an excuse -- maybe, but only if the WS uses it as an excuse. But again, using it as an excuse doesn't make it any less real.
Agree.

eta: to change what could sound like a generalization

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:35 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
deena04
Member
Member # 41741
Default  Posted: 8:03 PM, May 27th (Tuesday)

(((Split))) as a BS, I want to say thank you for revealing your views on this. My WS says the same thing. He never told me until I had a gut feeling to check email and, wham, 20 months after the fact and 4 months after our wedding, I find the emails where he had arranged and met a chic for one-time. He said he "snapped out of it and realized omg what am I doing and got out of there without completing the act completely". Don't know if it's completely true, but he has never changed that story. He committed immediately to being a better man and working on us (we lived together, but were having issues). He became a good man. We ended up marrying last year, but I found those fucking emails 4 months later. I am a hardcore, no second chance kind of chic, so I have filed, but am watching his continuous actions of remorse and it makes me want to reconcile, but not in this marriage. We would remarry if it works. Long story not so short, I had not seen another feel the remorse and want to be better before the BS knew until reading your post. Thank you :)


Me BS mid-late 30s
Him WS knocking on 40 (lovemywife4ever)
blended family with lots of kiddos
together 5 years, married 8/13
D day 12/1/13
WH ONS had been 4/12
L-I-B-E-R-A-T-I-N-G ME

Posts: 1237 | Registered: Dec 2013
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

The physical sensations AP tripped in me were very comparable to the ones my molester did when I was a kid.

In your case, split in two, I do agree that due to being molested at nine, you may be in a fog about an affair.

Please discuss this with your counselor. It needs to be addressed.

My spouse has no such similar excuse. He had an almost ideal childhood.

That said, I struggle with revenge affair thinking because it's done more deliberately. I know an A doesn't "just happen," but at least in my case, there was a very long progression for it to get to that point.

Everyone has trouble processing an affair. It doesn't matter, if it's a revenge affair or any other type of affair.

Many times, the intent of a revenge affair is not actually revenge but a desperate attempt to show the original wayward how it feels to be cheated on.

Also it's important to know that sometimes the person in a marriage who was unfaithful first is cheating out of revenge, sometimes because the wayward may feel the spouse is not meeting a need in some way and the wayward feels hurt or neglected.

My wayward husband told a counselor he thought I was too cautious with our spending, so he found a woman who was frivolous about money to spend money HE DID NOT HAVE on.

He now realizes how crazy that was because we could not afford to spend frivolously but at the time, he admits he was angry about it.

But a revenge affair, can also be a long process. Just like the wayward's affair. A revenge affair is not always an immediate reaction. It may occur years later.

The root of it may be the same, in that the person who was cheated on has not properly processed the hurt and neglect of being cheated on.

Again, if the original wayward spouse is rugsweeping or expecting the faithful spouse to just get over the cheating, an revenge affair may be a desperate attempt to try to show the original wayward spouse how it feels to have the person you trusted most in the world pull the rug of trust out from under you, by lying and sneaking around in an affair.

[This message edited by seethelight at 9:31 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

IMHO, where I get stuck, is why you allowed that door to crack enough to let another person in. The process of going into the fog, to me, seems like a deliberate choice.

This makes sense to me and it is my question, too.


Resolute H:

Thank you for your very thoughtful post.

But it means there was something that was so strong, I was willing to do the worst thing I've even done. Note that word: WILLING. I wasn't duped. There was no Jedi mind trick. I made the choice. But that doesn't make what I experienced at the time any less real.

So, if your wife had an affair, due to hurt and pain of your affair, would you realize that what pushed her into an affair was "something so strong she was willing to do the worst thing"?

Would you realize she was in a fog of humiliation, distrust, anger, hurt, and pain, possibly.

When my husband told a counselor he would not be able to get past a revenge affair, it made me very angry because then why would he expect me to stay with him.

It makes me feel as if he thinks I am a fool to stay after he cheated because he certainly would not stay with me, if I did the same.

He uses the fog as his excuse. I think the fog can be a two way street and he needs to realize that.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

if the original wayward spouse is rugsweeping or expecting the faithful spouse to just get over the cheating, an revenge affair may be a desperate attempt to try to show the original wayward spouse how it feels to have the person you trusted most in the world pull the rug of trust out from under you, by lying and sneaking around in an affair.

This makes sense to me.

I was hearing it as a more direct "I'm going to go out & have an affair now" type of thing. An intentional act done to even the score, so to speak. Like everything, there's a range, & I was only looking at one end of it. Thanks for explaining that, seethelight.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

IMHO, where I get stuck, is why you allowed that door to crack enough to let another person in. The process of going into the fog, to me, seems like a deliberate choice.

I still need to read Not Just Friends. But yes, there was a deliberate choice at one point to allow the door to crack enough to let another person in. In my case, I reconnected with an old friend once he returned to the states. We have an easy rapport, so when he randomly chatted with me during one of my late-night zone sessions, we fell into conversation. Edited to add: He also kept late hours, so I replaced my "watch bad tv" sessions with joking around online with AP & listening to music. In my brain, they were comparable acts. It was just something to do.

It was nice to have that type of a friend again, someone to talk about trivial nothings, joke around with, all that. The thought of an affair never entered my brain. Opening the door a crack proved to be one of the biggest mistakes of my life. With hindsight, I'd do things much differently, but at the time, I never in a million years would have thought conversing with a friend would lead to this.

[This message edited by splitintwo at 9:41 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
IntoTheLight
Member
Member # 42957
Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Opening the door a crack proved to be one of the biggest mistakes of my life. With hindsight, I'd do things much differently, but at the time, I never in a million years would have thought conversing with a friend would lead to this.

Exactly. I cracked the door and slowly entered the fog. It is very real. I don't talk to BH about it or see it as it as an excuse, it's just the best way to describe the state of mind I was in. I was doing something that went against everything I believed was right- I felt confused and crazy and obsessed.

I know the fog is real because when I saw the anguish in BH when I confessed, it lifted. Instantly. The confusion was gone, the lights came on, my mind was right again. But yes, I absolutely chose to crack that door and enter the fog.


WW-Me
BS-Him
Reconciling after confessing LTA

Posts: 84 | Registered: Mar 2014
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Some thoughts on a so called "revenge affair". This putting the word "revenge" really is annoying to me. An affair is an affair. Putting the word "revenge" in front of it doesn't justify it. As seethelight points out, the WS who has an affair maybe doing it out of "revenge".

I know my FWH was very angry (hurt) by me because he felt I didn't love or appreciate him, took him for granted. He had to "show me" that he was wanted by someone else. Which is ridiculous because he didn't want me to find out either, so it was his "secret revenge".

the intent of a revenge affair is not actually revenge but a desperate attempt to show the original wayward how it feels to be cheated on.
I really don't understand the need to go and intentionally hurt someone you love. To show them how it feels. I would never want to hurt someone I love in this most devastating way that I was hurt. Or to hurt him in anyway.

I have not told anyone IRL about his affair and many here suggested I tell everyone. That my FWH deserved for everyone to know. My BF, who I would have told, died 2 months before d-day. My other BF is one of my sisters. I wouldn't tell her because there are no secrets in my FoO, if you tell one member, everyone is going to find out. I don't want our children to know because I know they will lose respect for their father, they will still love him, but he will be diminished. I know it can be gained back, but I just didn't want to hurt fWH in that way. If they did find out accidentally, I know we would have to and would deal with it.

I am big on justice, but I don't get how "revenge" affairs is in anyway getting justice. Intentionally hurting the person I love most in the world just doesn't seem like "balancing" things for me. Why would I want to hurt someone I profess to love? When I read about someone wanting to have a revenge affair, I really have to wonder how much they really love their spouse if all they want to do is hurt them. It sounds like abuse to me.

So, if your wife had an affair, due to hurt and pain of your affair, would you realize that what pushed her into an affair was "something so strong she was willing to do the worst thing"?

Would you realize she was in a fog of humiliation, distrust, anger, hurt, and pain, possibly.

I don't agree with this at all. No one is "pushed" into an affair. It is a choice. Putting the word "revenge" in front of the word "affair" doesn't change one iota of it being a deliberate choice to commit infidelity.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

great post Sister!


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 10:47 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am big on justice, but I don't get how "revenge" affairs is in anyway getting justice. Intentionally hurting the person I love most in the world just doesn't seem like "balancing" things for me. Why would I want to hurt someone I profess to love? When I read about someone wanting to have a revenge affair, I really have to wonder how much they really love their spouse if all they want to do is hurt them. It sounds like abuse to me.

Sister milk shake:

You are entitled to feel the way you feel.

I am not asking you or anyone to agree.

I am asking wayward's how they would feel if their spouse had an affair in a FOG of hurt an pain and humiliation.

I agree. A revenge affair is NOT about revenge, most shrinks would agree, too.

So, my point here is if the wayward is claiming he/she had an affair in a fog. Would they agree that a BS who has an affair due to hurt and and pain and humiliation is also in a FOG.

That's the question.

Also, you may love your spouse the same way you did after his affair, but not everyone does.

When I am honest with myself, I can not say I love my husband the same way after his affair that I did before.

Love and trust go hand and hand to me. I really can not at this point trust my husband.

I may regain that trust someday, but not today.

Lastly, yes an affair is emotionally abusive, many counselors agree with that statement.

So our spouses emotionally abused us by having and affair.

Personally, a revenge affair at least has an obvious external reason.

The wayward who engaged in the original affair does not have a valid external reason. Often they simply blameshift to the faithful spouse.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:29 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am not asking you or anyone to agree.
Agreed. However, I will disagree with your opinion, again. On at least a couple of points.
So, my point here is if the wayward is claiming he/she had an affair in a fog. Would they agree that a BS who has an affair due to hurt and and pain and humiliation is also in a FOG.
What is the difference? It is the exact same kind of bullshit justifications.
Personally, a revenge affair at least has an obvious external reason.
No, it really wouldn't and doesn't. There is wayward thinking already afoot, imho, in people that are able to justify having a so called "revenge" affair but, in truth, was just an affair.

Revenge affairs belong with the glittery skittle shitting unicorns in Fantasyland.

The wayward who engaged in the original affair does not have a valid external reason.
No one has a valid external reason for having an affair. No. One.
Also, you may love your spouse the same way you did after his affair, but not everyone does.
Yeah, I guess I do love him the same. I mean is there a measuring stick? Haven't checked that stick if there is one. I love. There is no measurement. You love or you don't. Will I ever 100% trust him? I doubt that, but who knows? Are you saying that the way you love your spouse now includes causing him intentional pain and hurt?


p.s. I may have misunderstood your first point about the fog in that you don't believe the fog can push anyone into having an affair and that your question was directed to WS's.



BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am asking wayward's how they would feel if their spouse had an affair in a FOG of hurt an pain and humiliation.

Mine did. Didn't hurt any less than if I hadn't had one. In fact, he knew what it felt like to be a BS and he did it. And then he saw what it did to me and he did it again.
Hard stuff to move forward from. I actually kinda gave him a "gimme" because I had had one - BAD move on my part.

Pain and humiliation is just justification for doing it. I was in pain because of lots of crap he pulled before my affair. So? It was my job to handle that a mature way, not a back stabbing way.

And now here we are and I'm in pain and humiliated. Do I have a right to affair back? nope...


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I am asking wayward's how they would feel if their spouse had an affair in a FOG of hurt an pain and humiliation.

All BS' feel that pain and humiliation. Not all have A's of their own. Which indicates that 'revenge affairs' are absolutely nothing to do with the original A and everything to do with the BS' own poor coping mechanisms.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 12:34 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Which indicates that 'revenge affairs' are absolutely nothing to do with the original A and everything to do with the BS' own poor coping mechanisms.

yes! And one of the most important questions a recovering BS can ask is what are you going to do to make sure you use healthy coping mechanisms in the future AND (after some IC, introspection and reading perhaps) what are your healthy coping mechanisms now? Because God knows there will be other difficult things faced in the future and a person needs to not escape from it but face it in a mature way that includes healthy self soothing.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 1:00 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

No, it really wouldn't and doesn't. There is wayward thinking already afoot, imho, in people that are able to justify having a so called

Really, do you think I am lying when I say I would divorce rather than have a revenge affair?

I sense hostility from you to me, personally. Why is that?

That's interesting. Again, I am looking for thoughts from waywards not betrayed. Even though we disagree we are on the same side.

I said: So, my point here is if the wayward is claiming he/she had an affair in a fog. Would they agree that a BS who has an affair due to hurt and and pain and humiliation is also in the fog.

You said: What is the difference? It is the exact same kind of bullshit justifications.

Yes. I see you get my point. There is no difference.

Revenge affairs belong with the glittery skittle shitting unicorns in Fantasyland.

Again we agree. But you are a betrayed. I am wondering how a wayward would feel. I am not justifying. I am comparing the two to both being a FOG!

Yeah, I guess I do love him the same. I mean is there a measuring stick? Haven't checked that stick if there is one. I love. There is no measurement. You love or you don't. Will I ever 100% trust him? I doubt that, but who knows? Are you saying that the way you love your spouse now includes causing him intentional pain and hurt?

Well I am glad that things are so black and white for you. That makes reconciliation a lot easier for you.

I can love someone and be worried about not trusting them enough to want to spend the rest of my life with them.

I can love someone and not want to stay married to them because they were emotionally and financially abusive by having an affair.

Not everyone feels as you do. People are different and everyone feels.....well, the way they feel. We are not clones, humans. We are individuals.

As I said trust and love go hand in hand for me. If that does not apply to you....then more power to you, sister.

p.s. I may have misunderstood your first point about the fog in that you don't believe the fog can push anyone into having an affair and that your question was directed to WS's.

Yes, you did misunderstand, perhaps that was the hostility I sensed.

Thank you for clarifying.

We are both really on the same side.

[This message edited by seethelight at 1:12 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
NoDoormat
Member
Member # 43529
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

But a revenge affair, can also be a long process. Just like the wayward's affair. A revenge affair is not always an immediate reaction. It may occur years later.

The root of it may be the same, in that the person who was cheated on has not properly processed the hurt and neglect of being cheated on.

Again, if the original wayward spouse is rugsweeping or expecting the faithful spouse to just get over the cheating, an revenge affair may be a desperate attempt to try to show the original wayward spouse how it feels to have the person you trusted most in the world pull the rug of trust out from under you, by lying and sneaking around in an affair.

Putting on my WS hat here. Ouch. This is why I feel so much remorse, 10 years later. I should have come fully clean about everything then instead of "protecting" him from the truth because I knew better than him. I want to be a better person than that.


Me: MH 38, Him: MH 40
For-real separation for 3 months now.

Posts: 82 | Registered: May 2014
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Well I am glad that things are so black and white for you. That makes reconciliation a lot easier for you.
This really made me smile. I have been thinking a lot about black and white thinking lately. No, actually, things aren't all black and white for me. Again, I can't measure how easy or hard our reconciliation was as compared to others. I will say, it wasn't/isn't easy. It takes many leaps of faith, and I am not one to take leaps of faith easily.
I sense hostility from you to me, personally. Why is that?
My sincere apologies, seethelight. There is no hostility. I feel it is my blunt and to the point style of posting that cause some to bristle. It doesn't convey the correct tone I am actually posting with and it seems I can come off as hostile.
Really, do you think I am lying when I say I would divorce rather than have a revenge affair?
I haven't seen that post, so I wasn't applying that to what I was posting. I was saying, with what you had quoted of mine, that BS's that have so called "revenge" affairs already have some wayward thinking going on to be able to justify having an affair, that they have poor coping skills that enable them to think that is what should be done when your spouse has an affair.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:39 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

slight t/j

I love this thread. It makes me feel much more comfortable posting stop-sign free here. I struggled when making that choice for this thread because there are numerous triggers in it, especially for BS's. I really appreciate the discussion.

end t/j


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Mine did. Didn't hurt any less than if I hadn't had one. In fact, he knew what it felt like to be a BS and he did it. And then he saw what it did to me and he did it again.
Hard stuff to move forward from. I actually kinda gave him a "gimme" because I had had one - BAD move on my part.

Pain and humiliation is just justification for doing it. I was in pain because of lots of crap he pulled before my affair. So? It was my job to handle that a mature way, not a back stabbing way.

And now here we are and I'm in pain and humiliated. Do I have a right to affair back? nope...



I don't advocate revenge affairs. I am just saying a wayward who experiences ONE revenge affair should be understanding and still stick around to try and repair the damage from both affairs.

I think and affair and a revenge affair should end the affair cycle.

Of course his affair hurt you. Now you know how it feels and hopefully would not do it again.

But for him to have a second affair is very wrong and he needs counseling.

I am comparing a revenge affair fog to an original affair fog. That's all.

If an affair and a revenge affair do not end and affair issue in a marriage, IMO, it's time to divorce. Really and truly.

To clarify. I am not defending revenge affairs.

I am simply comparing the state of mind of the FOG as being the same FOG as the original betrayer was feeling, that is if one actually accepts the notion of a FOG.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

When you phrased BS fog like this, seethelight, it really resonated with me:

a fog of humiliation, distrust, anger, hurt, and pain

The WS fog can stem from that, too, or any other number of things. In any event, the more I read JFO & General, the more I come to understand the devastation of an A on the BS. I would guess that quite a few people don't have healthy coping strategies in place; no one plans to deal with an A in their M. It makes sense to me that an A, revenge or otherwise, may come into the mix for a BS in order to cope. And I'd guess a fair number start with the same slippery slope that mine did--just a friend you can talk to without all the bullshit drama that has taken over your life.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

a wayward who experiences ONE revenge affair should be understanding

why?

and you certainly ARE defending RA.

Of course his affair hurt you. Now you know how it feels and hopefully would not do it again.

so our job when our spouse steps out of line is to teach them a lesson? And, it's ok for the BS to degrade themselves to do this? yuck.

[This message edited by rachelc at 1:34 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5530 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

It makes sense to me that an A, revenge or otherwise, may come into the mix for a BS in order to cope.

How does this make sense?

It's crappy coping skills, no matter what order it happened in.

I am comparing a revenge affair fog to an original affair fog. That's all.

There is no comparing. RA, A, it's all fucked up coping skills.

My BW had an A 2 years before I had mine. Didn't tell me anything about it, it came up in MC after she discovered my affair. Mt A was not a RA, but it happened after hers. Would it have made any difference to her if it was an RA? None. SHould it had made a difference, NO.

There is no even, there is no level playing field.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Seethelight, my H had an A in 2009. I had an A in 2013. I didn't heal from his A, we rug swept the whole thing, never even spoke about it. And yet, my A had bugger all to do with his A. It was just because I had shitty coping mechanisms.

A wayward who experiences ONE revenge affair should be understanding

Why? My H cheated, I stayed. I cheated, he left. My H and I are not children playing tit for tat. The BS having an A of their own doesn't even the score or make things equal. Your spouse having an A doesn't give you a free pass. That's wayward thinking.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 1:52 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

A, revenge or otherwise, may come into the mix for a BS in order to cope.

Splitintwo:

Yes. Thank you for your post.

I think a wayward needs to understand that a revenge affair may be conducted as a way for the betrayed spouse to cope.

IMO, a wayward of all people should be forgiving of a revenge affair.

My original question arose because on various support forums, not necessarily this one, yet, I see a lot of waywards who, after being caught in an affair, insist vehemently that a revenge affair would be grounds for a divorce.

I find that so confusing.

My own husband mentioned this to a counselor and personally, I found it offensive.

He expects me to forgive and forget and move on, but he would not be able to do the same.

It just seems to be a hypocritical mind set, on his part, that I do not understand.

Personally, if I had cheated and my husband had a revenge affair, I would have to forgive him, too. It would be inconceivable for me to not forgive him, while I wanted him to forgive me.

[This message edited by seethelight at 1:55 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 1:58 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

seethelight...

You are more than welcome to express your feelings about revenge affairs, but you're not going to come into a protected forum and tell the WS's that they need to accept it and forgive it.

Take that out to General.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198861 | Registered: May 2002
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Hi Admin:

Sorry.

I thought it was okay to post and even asked if it was okay.

If you want me to delete my posts. I will.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I think a wayward needs to understand that a revenge affair may conducted as a way for the betrayed spouse to cope.

I think you are mixing everything up with this statement. A WS might understand, but that does not make it a healthy way to deal or cope.

You seem to be saying that either spouse should accept the unhealthy behavior, as long as it came second. Does that make sense?

You can only control yourself, and what your deal breakers are. You cannot control someone else.

For me, the first person I betrayed with my A was myself. Why would ANYONE do that to themselves in the name of a RA?


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 2:05 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

seethelight...

Yes, you are open to post on this thread, but please do not preach to the WS's in their own forum that they need to accept and forgive an RA.

That is not the purpose of this forum or this thread.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:09 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198861 | Registered: May 2002
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Thanks DS.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6028 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

seethelight...

Yes, you are open to post on this thread, but please do not preach to the WS's in their own forum that they need to accept and forgive an RA.

That is not the purpose of this forum or this thread.

Deeply Scarred:

I got it. Thank you for the clarification.

BTW: I read your story just now on your profile page and I thought it was very sensitive and touching.

It was also helpful to understanding the perspective from the other side.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1516 | Registered: May 2014
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Thank you seethelight...your understanding is very much appreciated


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198861 | Registered: May 2002
splitintwo
Member
Member # 42951
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

It makes sense to me that an A, revenge or otherwise, may come into the mix for a BS in order to cope.

How does this make sense?

It's crappy coping skills, no matter what order it happened in.

It makes sense in that I can understand it happening when I think of the behavior in terms of poor coping skills, of being vulnerable to allowing a slippery slope relationship to develop in an ill-guided attempt at dealing, of not necessarily recognizing the behavior for what it is because your mind is so clouded.

It doesn't make sense in terms of being justified. It's not.

But one thing my A has taught me & one common thread I've picked up on is that many of us that go that route have shitty coping skills. If tested by an A, a BS that may never have thought they could do that may in fact have an A of their own. It doesn't make it right. But how many of us ever thought we'd cheat? Very very few. Doesn't make it right or even something we have to accept. I can understand it may be a reality though, especially with someone lost in their own pain.


BH: 42
WW: 37
LTA ended Jan. 1, 2014; NC started in April.
Married 17 years.
No DDay; this, like all of life's decisions, is a work in progress.

My best thinking brought me to SI.


Posts: 213 | Registered: Mar 2014
Melian40
Member
Member # 41205
Default  Posted: 6:06 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I rarely post on WW, although I read a lot.
Anyways..
I agree with seethelight in most things, especially on this:
"My husband was under the influence of something and that something was the chemistry of falling in love." I think the fog is the beginning of falling in love-lust. The other stuff, like denial, blameshifting, justification and compartmetalization follow as symptoms. JMHO.

Now about the revenge affairs:
A revenge affair might take place soon after DD but it would be pointless for obvious reasons.
Of course it could be also take place years after. Some BS might think that if they divorce their WS, they would still have to process the same pain, but making that decision they would also hurt their children. One hurt person is better than two or three.
So they stay... but they develop a wondering eye... they remember that they were also been hit by cool OP but they remained faithful because of their love for their spouse, their integrity and vows. But now this love is not the same... They pull themselves together, they take their time to heal, but IF the opportunity arrives they might take it. After all, why wouldn't they want to live the thrill, the "drug"? "It" must be very good, otherwise how would "this" make their spouses so "foggy"? But how about the consequnses? They might think that after their spouse's infidelity their marriage is not good anyway. How much worse it could become?
Don't get me wrong here, I understand the WW better than you think. I don't hate them. They are human beings. All waywards are not the same. There are a lot of hidden or unhidden issues, circumstances and many reasons why people cheat. I just gave you an example of how easily a BS can become a WS...
Peace.


BW-me:40
BH-him:41
DD-age 9
Together 7 years, married 17 years
DD1:8/12/2013 -OW1-PA 1.5 months in 2009
DD2:8/17/2013 - OW2-EA Spring 2013- He tried to hit on her but she denied.

"You can't fix a broken man, but he can break you"


Posts: 216 | Registered: Nov 2013
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 6:22 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

Being a wayward is not a mystery. And an affair is an affair. I don't believe in RA. A BS that is going out and having an A after their wayward has had an A is using the same coping mechanisms and thought processes.

The reason why many waywards often put up boundaries and say that they won't tolerate an A from their BS is because they are having to find and learn new boundaries and coping mechanisms. It is called getting healthy. And I believe that there are several madhatter couples on here, myself included that have stuck around after the BS has had an A.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 5156 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:33 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

*sigh* As someone famous in the Wayward forum use to say, wayward thinking isn't limited to the waywards here at SI. (she said it better, I paraphrased not well)


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 6:35 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

How did we get from The Fog to revenge affairs?

Anyone who chooses to have an A is 100% responsible for his choices. Even if his partner cheated on him first.

they remained faithful because of their love for their spouse, their integrity and vows. But now this love is not the same

Perhaps their love waned, and their unilaterally-broken vows seem cheapened.

why wouldn''t they want to live the thrill, the "drug"?

Because they still have integrity.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1252 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I take issue with the "falling in love" comparison. I would be curious to hear whether many waywards felt, in retrospect, like the affair was falling in love in the same, pure sense that it was with their spouse.

I don't think my H is unique in that the affair was not a happy-go-lucky, not-a-care-in-the-world, skipping-through-the-daisies kind of thing. It was not a new relationship, full of promise. Even at his foggiest, he was conflicted and anxious. He felt like a ghost, and at the end, a shell of a person. He and his AP spent their whole time together propping each other up, and trying to justify why they weren't "so bad." This wasn't after 2 years, this was after 2 months.

He isn't rationalizing, he'll tell me at the time he thought he could do no wrong -- he felt that he was amazing, and his ego blew up to the size of Manhattan. But, I can tell you that this is not the same as my experience of falling in love, and it wasn't the same as his experience of falling in love with me. It may have been more intense in some ways (due to the hothouse, no-air-allowed-in nature of an affair), but it was not more real. It was less real, actually because it was an illusion. He was "in love" with his reflection in a mirror, not the AP.

The mechanism is similar, but the context is so radically different.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 6:47 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)]


me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

Posts: 2157 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

How did we get from The Fog to revenge affairs?
I was wondering the same thing.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 7:09 PM, May 28th (Wednesday)

I have been trying to put into words my *fog*

My fog was of my own making. Bionicgal, like your WH, I thought I could do no wrong during A1, until it started eating me alive. I was a mess, living two lives, but so clouded in my judgement and thought processes, I refused to do anything about it. a2 was a little different, but again, I created whatever fog I needed to hid myself from reality.

My fog was all me. After Dday (s) my fog continued because I was still selfishly thought that I could control everything. I could lie and manipulate my way thorough this. I didn't have to face the music, and it was my choice again.

I think the word fog denotes a natural occurrence, and that is why some bristle at its use, but in my opinion, the *fog* is of your own making. It exists as long as you let it exist. It happens if you let it happen.

Just my opinion.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 730 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:12 AM, May 29th (Thursday)

I would be curious to hear whether many waywards felt, in retrospect, like the affair was falling in love in the same, pure sense that it was with their spouse.

No. For me, my A was borne of desperation. Very different from the start of any normal relationship. I was selfish with the AP in a way I have never been with someone I was actually in a relationship with, I was using him.

I told him whatever I needed to so that he would keep validating me and holding up that mirror with the false reflection (you're so beautiful BBT, you're such a wonderful and special person etc etc) AP didn't matter, he could have been anyone. The A wasn't about him, it was about me.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - Jan 2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 2:50 AM, May 29th (Thursday)

i asked my WW what she thinks about it. she said that she fed herself bullsh1t for so long and repeated it so often that she began to believe it. she agreed that it was like a drug for her and she kept repeating it with different people because it became her default mechanism - so a mixture of an addiction, lies, and bullsh1t.
That's where it gets so tricky to delineate. Even in a fog state, I'd intellectually recognize that my actions were wrong. I did them anyway. Looking back, it's like I stepped into a sociopath's mind for a while. I operated without conscience, without emotion. I could not process effect. That internal feedback was, for all intents & purposes, dead during the thick of the fog.
she agreed with this as well. she knew it was wrong intellectually when she was doing it but exactly how wrong it all was only struck her emotionally later.
she also compartmentalized each and every action with each person - she never saw them as linked. a ONS with person 1 had nothing to do with a ONS with person 2 nor that with a LTA with person 3 and none of those had anything to do with the dozen or so people she was sexting with. each was an individual act in her mind with no overall connection at all.

me, i dont know. i cant speak from others perspectives, only my own. in my case - i dont see how its possible to have a ONS with person 1, "regret it", and then wind up having a ONS 2 with person 2 a few months later and NOT think about ONS 1 before having 2. its hard to conceptualize that someone puts their hand in a meat grinder TWICE. isnt once enough to learn??? what about the third time, the LTA - over time didnt she see it was sticking the hand in the meat grinder? what about the dozen guys with the photos (1 of whom was ONS 2 and another of whom became LTA guy). how can they be so compartmentalized in her mind? it bewilders me.

sometimes i think the fog is nothing more than telling yourself whatever it takes to allow yourself to do whatever it is you want to do. the argument made a few pages ago resonated with me in some ways - a a thief stealing, vandalism, crossing the street when the crossing light is red, or even tossing litter onto the ground is doing the same thing, isnt it? its offering excuses to justify and permit behavior that the person KNOWS is wrong. the justifications probably are more similar than we care to admit. everyone is doing it. if they dont know, it doesnt matter. i wont ever get caught. someone else can clean up the mess. etc, etc. but when i do wrong things i know they are wrong and make a carefully calculated decision to do them - and much more often than not i dont do them.

i guess i can accept the fog on an intellectual level inside my head but in my heart i dont fully believe in. i can accept that someone can lie to themselves so often they believe their own crap in abstract theory but find it hard to accept that they actually believe it and instead are just using what they know to be untrue and crap to justify what they actually want to do. im still muddling through this in my own mind ....

on revenge affairs ... i agree and disagree with some of the points made.
a revenge affair would be done to either hurt the other person (feel my pain or to even the score) or because the person engaging in it feels "why should my boundaries be so high when my spouses boundaries werent" and begins to engage in wayward thinking of their own - perhaps entering that "fog" im not sure really exists or not.
maybe this is heretical on the forums but i would see a revenge affair as the one type of affair that actually has a "reason". the other person stabbed me in the back when i trusted them and F them but ... im gonna get them back. so on one level i can see that there is no elusive "why", its pretty cut and dried.
on the other hand i also dont understand it. ive experienced my fallout from my wife sticking her hand in the meat grinder - multiple times. im watching the effect it had on her. on our marriage. on our daughter. i sure as hell dont want to stick my hand in the meat grinder (even less than ever before and i wasnt even slightly tempted before) too. why would i want to do something that is so destructive not only to my spouse but to myself, my marriage, and my daughter? in that perspective it makes no sense. its like cutting off my nose to spite my face.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 584 | Registered: Jan 2014
Melian40
Member
Member # 41205
Default  Posted: 3:42 PM, May 29th (Thursday)

Many affairs started because the WS thought that the BS didn't love them, or even worse because the WS thought that the BS had already an affair.
How difficult it would be for a BS to start an A at some point when he/she has proof of the above?


BW-me:40
BH-him:41
DD-age 9
Together 7 years, married 17 years
DD1:8/12/2013 -OW1-PA 1.5 months in 2009
DD2:8/17/2013 - OW2-EA Spring 2013- He tried to hit on her but she denied.

"You can't fix a broken man, but he can break you"


Posts: 216 | Registered: Nov 2013
HowToLiveWithIt
Member
Member # 18662
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, May 29th (Thursday)

I think fog does exist, I have seen it. It explains many actions, but it does not mean it excuses them, sort of like drunk driving ..


Me BH 50, seemingly married happily 25 years
Wife 47, had 3 PA affair, last one developed as EA but then turned PA and sporadic meeting 2 times a year at conferences but lasted for 8 years. Trying to reconcile.

Posts: 70 | Registered: Mar 2008
SisterMilkshake
Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, May 29th (Thursday)

maybe this is heretical on the forums but i would see a revenge affair as the one type of affair that actually has a "reason".
I must have the thickest fog wrapped around my head and brain. It simply can not comprehend how any BS feels there is a "reason" to have an affair. You (in general, some of the BS's posting on this thread) all must really think the Tit for Tat rule applies. Or the "Well, He Did It First" rule.

Please, please explain to me in really small, simple words for my very small feeble brain how it is okay or understandable for the BS to have an affair in response to their WS's affair. Because, I. Just. Don't. Get. It.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:04 PM, May 29th (Thursday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9952 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, May 29th (Thursday)

Thanks, BBT. Very validating as to what I have heard as well.

It was very hard at first for my H to realize that he, in fact, used someone. (He did feel like he loved her in the A. . . it was the only way he could justify his intense "feelings.")

Can I ask if you feel you were used in return by your AP? My H seems uninterested in thinking about it, and seems to not be angry about it. He says he focuses on his behavior and tries to think about her as little as possible. But something tells me, that she doesn't feel similarly. (She seems to feel somewhat victimized by the situation, if I am reading her behavior post dday correctly.)


me - BS (45) - DDay - June 2013
A was 2+ months, EA/PA
In MC & Reconciling
"Getting over a painful experience is much like crossing monkey bars. You have to let go at some point to move forward." -- C.S. Lewis.

Posts: 2157 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
floridaredman
Member
Member # 15122
Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, May 29th (Thursday)

sometimes i think the fog is nothing more than telling yourself whatever it takes to allow yourself to do whatever it is you want to do

This is the fog in a nutshell. It is also justifying something that you really know is not justified.

The fog, on a scientific note, is dopamine induced euphoria that you attach to a person or persons or even things. The same feelings you get when you first fall in love or have a crush. You can do some outlandish things when you have those fantastical feelings. Things you could be quite ashamed of once the dopamine ceases to flow or you stop chasing the dopamine high.

It's no different than having a drug addiction that you are chasing the high of.

Once you go "no contact" with that drug or it loses it's euphoric appeal, you "sober" up and realize how ridiculous it was or could be.

Once off that high the OM/OW may not seem so appealing because the dopamine no longer hides the true fact that they have faults too. Faults you may have already seen, but too busy chasing the high to let it deter you. Is it the dopamine's fault?...Nope, it's the fault of the person for letting the dopamine rush rule their judgment.

So as for people who like alcohol must "Drink Responsibly" Those of us caught in the throes of dopamine must choose to "Think Responsibly"if we see that it is leading us to betrayal.


The simplest thing can be the hardest thing to do....FRM

Posts: 2540 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Florida
Topic Posts: 75