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Reconciliation
User Topic: I could try to R, but why?
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 2:24 PM, June 19th (Thursday)

Two months after D-Day#2, and dealing with a TT bombshell two weeks ago, I'm hovering between D and R. I worry that if I say I'm in for months of R, WW will do the very minimum work on herself to get by, and I'll still be wavering and I will still be in the position of leaving her and my two DSs, only with more time wasted and more hurt feelings.

Still having to swallow the hell she put me through without her really owning it. More of her minimization and denial, and more of me having to demand every scrap of change from her. The thought of it makes me sick, but then, so does the thought of giving up and filing for D now and admitting we have a failed family. And this in-between state of neither working on R or filing for D seems like the worst of all worlds.

I hate what she did. I hate the lies, the defenses, the minimization, the TT, all of it. She says she's sorry, will never do it again, is trying hard to understand, etc. But she doesn't seem to "get it" even as she claims that she does get it.

Two days ago she said she "didn't want to be the person who did those things." I asked what she was going to do about it, and her answer made it clear that she had no idea, the question didn't even make sense to her. Apparently she thought that seeing my pain and learning that having affairs using Ashley Madison isn't a good idea would good enough to keep her faithful. She thinks her claims that she's faithful now (which I have reason to believe are true) should be reassuring. I know there are demons inside her that allowed this to happen -- what is she going to do about those?

I'm out of energy and have little if any left to give to this M. I can barely make it to work and get through the day. I can't change her, and I don't know if she will change herself. Why should I risk it? Is is worth any more emotional investment just to get knocked down by more TT or another A or just more signs that she's unable to understand?

[This message edited by mhca at 2:42 PM, June 19th (Thursday)]


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
Badhurt
Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, June 19th (Thursday)

Read the two threads on JFO if you have not already done it
"Before You Reconcile"
"2020 Hindsight"

There has got to be some stuff in there that should help you. Switching threads will not save your health or your marriage. You need to get hold of this before you get sick or have a major health issue.


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 6:26 PM, June 19th (Thursday)

First, if you would R if you saw certain behavior from your W, it sounds like you want R. That doesn't mean you need to commit now. You could simply tell your W something like, 'If I see several months of ____ behaviors from you, I'll be willing to R. Until then, I'm going to work on my own recovery, and I'm willing to work on our M - but there will be no attempt to R unless and until you show me you're fully committed to R.'

Second, it's entirely reasonable to guide your WS with clear definitions of your requirements - for example:

NC with ap
Honesty - answering questions when you ask them, even if you ask the same Q multiple times
Transparency - she keeps you informed of her whereabouts and companions at virtually all times.
IC for her with a goal of changing from cheater to good partner
Release signed by her allowing her IC to talk with you about her goals and progress
MC as appropriate
IC for you, if you desire
...and other requirements you'd like to add.


R works. It's possible for many couples, if they both want it and are willing to do the necessary work.

If you want it and if your W is a candidate, go for it. If you want D, or if your W isn't a good candidate for R, forget it.

But WSes are pretty clueless. If you want R, telling your W what she needs to do is usually a good thing to do.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10166 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 7:37 AM, June 20th (Friday)

Is is worth any more emotional investment just to get knocked down by more TT or another A or just more signs that she's unable to understand?

I decided that the pain of the "R" wasn't worth the reward.

That, like you, all I was going to get was more TT,
more blame, and more attempts on her part to feel better by denigrating me.

I finally got the "picture".... that her affairs were driven by "life truths" inside her, and not by external factors such as me, and the kids.


Posts: 460 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, June 20th (Friday)

Is is worth any more emotional investment just to get knocked down by more TT or another A or just more signs that she's unable to understand?

I decided that the pain of the "R" wasn't worth the reward.

That, like you, all I was going to get was more TT,
more blame, and more attempts on her part to feel better by denigrating me.

I finally got the "picture".... that her affairs were driven by "life truths" inside her, and not by external factors such as me, and the kids.

I can't change her, and I don't know if she will change herself.

And, I decided that no change just didn't work for me. I was "doomed" to more affairs, more TT, more lies, and more insults.



Posts: 460 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 4:50 PM, June 20th (Friday)

I figure the only path forward out of limbo is a very clear agreement of what I need and expect. I talked to WW about a plan for reconciliation (not that I've promised it, we're just talking for now). She agrees with all the major points.

I feel like I'm giving something up by keeping the door open to R (maybe just resentment) but I think that if there's hope for the M it requires something like this. And if she can't fulfill what's needed, then I'll have the answer I need and maybe much sooner than if I just let things go as they are.

Anyway, here's the plan I floated.

==============================

Reconciliation Plan
-------------------

(W) - Wife
(H) - Husband
(B) - Both

- Expectations (B)
-- Full effort: no higher priority other than children's critical needs
-- No consultation with lawyers or financial planners

- Attempt R until Jan 1, 2015 or sooner by mutual agreement (B)
- Significant work for six months, with one of two expected outcomes:
-- Shift the M into a stable phase, continue to work on healing, renewal, and growth, but with the expectation that indefinite commitment is restored, or
-- Agreement to terminate the M in as amicable and collaborative a manner as circumstances permit

- No infidelity (emotional, physical, internet, any other) (B)
-- No new infidelities or questionable situations
-- No contact with any AP; any contact attempts to be immediately disclosed. Any AP message must be disclosed and not destroyed. Both partners must agree on any outgoing message.
-- No emotional intimacy with other men outside family, disclose any violations or grey areas (W)
-- Inform partner of any "gray" relationships or conversations (those about non-monogamy, infidelity, divorce advocacy)
-- Eliminate relationships with people that are unsupportive of the M

- Continue work on healing as needed by H (W)
-- Empathetic interaction without resistance (B)
-- Trigger avoidance (B)
-- Delay discussing pre-A problems until both H and W agree (B)
-- Additional reading together up to twice per week about A (B, W to initiate some)
-- Disclose lingering or non-transient thoughts about any AP
-- Make special efforts to prevent or address hurts (after a flashback, leaving a party, turning off a TV show, etc.)
-- Carefully reread NJF after fog fully lifted
-- Detailed disclosure of location and schedule, open access to online calendar
-- Work to achieve closure (H)

- Disclose remaining aspects of A (W)
-- Disclosure based solely on H's stated or expected need to know and not W's interpretation or what is best for her or others
-- Work to recall and disclose all significant details of A (except for sex acts)
-- Work to consider what could be important to H and make sure those details are disclosed
-- Make best efforts to prevent H needing to "stew" on lingering hurts or questions
-- Eliminate defensiveness and excuses
-- Disclose all methods used and expenditures
-- Answer questions patiently, fully, and truthfully, even if they have been asked multiple times
-- No topics off-limits for H to ask, W may defer answers to MC in good faith only (W)

- Earnest attempt to reconcile (B)
-- Wear rings at all times
-- Fully open conversation (with ground rules as needed)
-- Effort to establish intimacy and affection even if doubtful about R
-- After adequate healing, open discussion of existing problems before A
-- Repair and prevent child-centered marriage
-- Work to create equitable balance of each partner's needs without judgment or resistance
-- Work to earn forgiveness (W)
-- Work to grant forgiveness (H)

- Empathy (B)
-- Work to understand the emotional impact of the A (W)
-- Work to understand what it's like to be in the other person's shoes
-- Allow partner to share feelings without fear or invalidation
-- Allow partner to express non-abusive anger without fear or invalidation

- Intimacy (B)
-- Work to overcome fear and resistance to intimacy
-- No conversations with anyone (except family members and therapists) that you wouldn't feel ok telling partner all details
-- No guarantee to others that conversations will not be shared with partner or therapists. If needed, inform others before they talk.
-- No wearing "masks" or "candy-coating" interactions, but also allow for joy and optimism
-- Make best efforts to be known to partner in the deepest sense, even at risk of shame, embarrassment, or fear
-- Create safe interpersonal space for partner to become fully known

- No lies on any topic whatsoever (B)
-- No lies of omission or deliberate misleading
-- Ensure no false impressions based on previous lies
-- Always assume truth is more important than hurt feelings or self-protection. Tact and timing are considerations but are not excuses for falsehood.

- Personal growth (B)
-- Determine and disclose to H what core attitudes and beliefs allowed the A to happen (W)
-- Work to change those attitudes and beliefs (W)
-- Continue IC each week except for unavoidable conflicts
-- Develop and share personal wants, desires, and vision for the future
-- Determine W's underlying need for personal connections and role H needs to have in it (W)
-- Identify and disclose any co-dependent behaviors and work to eliminate them
-- Identify and disclose any FOO issues and address them
-- Develop deep understanding of how to create and maintain healthy marriages

- Relationship building (B)
-- Regular reading together, at least 1/2 hour per week, in addition to A reading
-- Work to be physically close when socializing
-- Commitment to avoid four horsemen
-- Bias to spend time together even if doing different things
-- Work to establish what needs / expectations each partner has of the other, and why (what purpose they serve)
-- Make efforts to appreciate and nurture partner
-- Work on conflict handling / intimacy
-- At least one meal / date out per week without children
-- Develop long term vision for marriage

- Electronic transparency (W)
-- H to know all credentials for all services and devices, no changes without informing H
-- No new or existing accounts on any social media, email, or communications service without H's agreement
-- No deleting texts, or other messages (Facebook, e.g.) without offering to H first
-- No clearing email "trash" folder or deleting individual messages
-- No private browser mode or clearing history in any browser

- Financial transparency (W)
-- Grant H access to W bank website for viewing only
-- No ownership or use of temporary credit cards (B)
-- No new financial accounts without agreement (B)

- Create private zones (B)
-- Calls / written letters to family members
-- Therapists
-- Personal journal
-- By mutual agreement, details of specific conversations / messages

- Sexual health (B)
-- Explore and share sexual desires
-- Discuss ideas and wants openly, not just during sex
-- Disclose and discuss sexual phobias and hang-ups
-- Share what partners find physically attractive and work to address these wants
-- Be open about intentions for sex (signaling during the day, e.g.)
-- Allow for asking about sexual needs without fear of shame or criticism
-- Keep all sexual interactions private between H&W except with therapists

- Other
-- Research whether children could benefit from IC, pursue if appropriate


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, June 20th (Friday)

I don't know what to say about the list. I'm impressed. I'm thinking it should be copied and pasted somewhere... I especially like how you are both included as having to work at it to move forward.

Are some of these requirements dealbreakers for you if she doesn't comply? and what would the consequence be? Divorce? Does she know that?

also, out of sheer curiosity, what do you do for a living?


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's


Posts: 5050 | Registered: Dec 2010
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 5:07 PM, June 20th (Friday)

rachelc: I don't know what to say about the list. I'm impressed. I'm thinking it should be copied and pasted somewhere... I especially like how you are both included as having to work at it to move forward. Are some of these requirements dealbreakers for you if she doesn't comply? and what would the consequence be? Divorce? Does she know that? also, out of sheer curiosity, what do you do for a living?

Thanks rachelc. If it's helpful for others I'd be very flattered and happy. If anyone has suggestions to make it better I'd welcome those. I recognize that even though I'm the one hurting more that she can't fix it all by herself so that's why there are the items for me or both of us.

As for dealbreakers, some most definitely are. Any new A would be the end but she knows that. But mainly I think it's a general sense of success or failure. If she doesn't open up and find out why she had the A (other than blaming circumstances) then I can't see us continuing. If we're not becoming a better couple then we shouldn't go on. Etc. She should know this but she's also been in denial to varying degrees and needs reminding I'm sure.

I do worry that we could get to the end and it's not working but she is still in denial and ends up shocked if I turn towards D. But I can't fix her other than by being as clear as I can.

As for my job, I work in a software company with a bunch of software developers. Maybe should've been a lawyer instead...


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
WhereIsHome
Member
Member # 43662
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, June 20th (Friday)

Wow plan is awesome.

Easter Weekend dday#2 for me and we have a similar wife she just doesn't get it.

From that plan you drafted looks like you are doing all the work. Seems to me like you are the parent and she is a child much how I feel. Our WWs need to start walking the walk and talking the talk.


I was betrayed - 39
Wayward Wife - 38
D-Day1 May 2011 bought her lies didn't get confirm on 1 till dday2.
D-Day2 Good Friday 2014...Good Friday have to laugh a little on that one.
Daughter #1 Stillborn
Daughter #2 Doing great

Posts: 89 | Registered: Jun 2014
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 5:26 PM, June 20th (Friday)

yeah, i might consider giving her this and saying, "you're in charge of this recovery."


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's


Posts: 5050 | Registered: Dec 2010
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, June 20th (Friday)

Again, I think you should have her sign a release allowing you to talk with her therapist about her goals and progress.

Great plan.

You know you'll just make a start by 1/1/15, right? I assume you'll reset the date as appropriate....

Good luck.

[This message edited by sisoon at 7:36 PM, June 20th (Friday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10166 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, June 20th (Friday)

sisoon: not sure if her IC would go along with opening the session to me but I'll inquire.

I agree that success would take us well past the new year. But, if we're to fail I'd like to do that quickly, hence the six month milestone. I hope that will be enough time for all the fog to lift and for her to show whether she's capable of what I need from her (and vice versa I suppose).


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
mike7
Member
Member # 38603
Default  Posted: 2:56 AM, June 21st (Saturday)

did she give you the identities of the OM? Or is she still placing their well-being over yours?

just letting you know, I don't think you should put up with that shit. the resentment will fester until you can't take it.


BH 53
WW 52
Two kids 21, 18

DDay 1/15/2013


Posts: 542 | Registered: Mar 2013
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, June 21st (Saturday)

Mike7: yes, I have the names of everyone involved at this point. I'm resentful that it was so hard to get this far as she pushed back every step of the way. But at this point I think I have most of the facts I need. I expect I'll have more questions, and I hope they get answered honestly and without the previous hostility. That's why there are lines on the plan about disclosing more details of the A.


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, June 21st (Saturday)

A milestone may help, may not. My point is to approach the milestone with flexibility. If you're not sure at 6 months, you can commit to R or to D, or you can set a new milestone. Don't box yourself in.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10166 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 3:38 PM, June 26th (Thursday)

It's been a stormy week as I've been back and forth trying to decide whether I am willing to put my emotions on the line again and commit to an R process. The latest pendulum swing is to try to work things out, and I'm feeling slightly more optimistic in the last 24 hours. WW and I have gone back and forth a bit on the R plan, but there's general consensus and she says she's all in to make it work if we can. I've been questioning her sincerity and commitment but I'm beginning to think that it's real enough to try to move forward.

Here's the latest state of the plan after going back and forth with her:

Reconciliation Plan
-------------------

(W) - Wife
(H) - Husband
(B) - Both

- Expectations (B)
-- Full effort: no higher priority other than children's or other family members' critical needs
-- No consultation with lawyers or financial planners
-- Promote healing, emotional transparency, honesty, devotion, and new patterns of communication and conflict management

- Attempt R until Jan 1, 2015 (B)
- Significant work for six months, with one of two expected outcomes:
-- Desired: Shift the M into a stable phase, continue to work on healing, renewal, and growth, but with the expectation that indefinite commitment is restored, or
-- Contingent: Terminate the M in as amicable and collaborative a manner as circumstances permit

- No infidelity (B)
-- Includes emotional, physical, internet, any other questionable intimacies with opposite sex.
-- Inform partner of any "near misses", passes, etc.
-- No contact with any AP; any contact attempts to be immediately disclosed. Any AP message must be disclosed and not destroyed. Both partners must agree on any outgoing message.
-- Inform partner of any "gray" relationships or conversations (those about non-monogamy, infidelity, divorce advocacy)
-- Eliminate relationships with people that are unsupportive of the M (Bad MCGF, e.g.)

- Continue work on healing as needed by H (W)
-- Empathetic interaction without resistance (B)
-- Trigger avoidance (B)
-- Additional reading together about A including NJF (B, W to initiate some)
-- Make special efforts to prevent or address hurts (after a flashback, leaving a party, turning off a TV show, etc.)
-- Disclose location and schedule, open access to online calendar
-- Work to achieve closure (H)
-- Expect and allow time for full recovery (B)

- Disclose remaining aspects of A (W)
-- Disclosure based solely on H's stated or expected need to know and not W's interpretation or what is best for her or others; discuss as needed
-- Work to consider what could be important to H and make sure those details are disclosed (except for sex acts)
-- Make best efforts to prevent H needing to "stew" on lingering hurts or questions
-- Disclose all methods used and expenditures
-- Answer questions patiently, fully, and truthfully, even if they have been asked multiple times. Eliminate defensiveness.
-- No topics off-limits for H to ask in good faith, W may defer answers to MC in good faith (W)

- Earnest attempt to reconcile (B)
-- Wear rings at all times
-- Fully open conversation (with ground rules as needed)
-- Effort to establish intimacy and affection even if doubtful about R
-- Open discussion of existing problems before A as needed for reconsiliation
-- Repair and prevent child-centered marriage
-- Work to create equitable balance of each partner's needs without judgment or resistance
-- Work to earn forgiveness for A (W)
-- Work to grant forgiveness for A (H)
-- Work to earn and grant forgiveness for non-A issues identified as important by either partner (B)

- Empathy (B)
-- Work to understand the full emotional impact of the A (W)
-- Work to understand what it's like to be in the other person's shoes
-- Allow partner to share feelings without fear or invalidation
-- Allow partner to express non-abusive anger without fear or invalidation

- Intimacy (B)
-- Work to overcome fear and resistance to intimacy
-- Make no guarantee to others that conversations will not be shared with partner or therapists. If needed, inform others before they talk. Make exceptions for others sharing personal issues for which they need support.
-- From conversations with others, disclose to partner comments, advocacy, or attitudes that conflict with M goals
-- No wearing "masks" or "candy-coating" interactions, but also allow for authentic joy and optimism even in difficult times
-- Make best efforts to be known to partner in the deepest sense, even at risk of shame, embarrassment, or fear
-- Create safe interpersonal space for partner to become fully known

- No lies on any topic (B)
-- No lies of omission or deliberate misleading
-- Ensure no false impressions based on previous lies
-- Always assume truth is more important than hurt feelings or self-protection. Tact and timing are considerations but are not excuses for falsehood.

- Personal growth (B)
-- Understand and disclose to H what core attitudes and beliefs allowed the A to happen (W)
-- Continue weekly IC
-- Develop and share personal wants, desires, and vision for the future
-- Determine each partner's core needs, especially unmet needs, and role other partner should play in meeting / affirming them
-- Identify and disclose any co-dependent behaviors and work to eliminate them
-- Identify and disclose any FOO issues and address them
-- Develop deep understanding of how to create and maintain healthy marriages

- Relationship building (B)
-- Regular reading together (in addition to A reading)
-- Work to be physically close when socializing
-- Commit to avoid four horsemen
-- Develop deep emotional intimacy
-- Bias to spend time together even if doing different things
-- Revitalize and discover new common interests
-- Work to establish what needs / expectations each partner has of the other, and why (what purpose they serve)
-- Make efforts to appreciate, nurture, and cherish partner
-- Creeate better patterns for communication and conflicts
-- At least one meal / date out per week without children
-- Develop long-term vision for marriage

- Electronic transparency (W? B?)
TO DISCUSS: WHAT'S THE LONG-TERM UNDERSTANDING WE WANT? IF TWO-WAY THEN LET'S OPEN IT UP NOW. IF NOT, THEN THIS
CAN BE TEMPORARY AND ONE-WAY.
-- H to know all credentials for all services and devices, no changes without informing H
-- No deleting texts, or other messages (Facebook, e.g.) without offering to H first
-- No clearing email "trash" folder or deleting individual messages (OK to put messages in trash)
-- No private browser mode or clearing history in any browser
-- No new or existing accounts on any social media, email, or communications service without partner's agreement (B)
-- No phones or other communication devices without partner knowledge (B)

- Financial transparency (B)
-- Full access to all bank websites
-- No ownership or use of temporary credit cards
-- No new financial accounts without agreement
-- Disclose up to date balances of all investment accounts (H)
-- Disclose all material investment transactions (H)

- Affirm core values (B)
-- Invest significant time and devotion to partner
-- Attempt to connect with "true love"
-- Develop and use strength to confront relationship challenges and affirm one another
-- Show courage when faced with threats to marriage and self
-- Practice compassionate communication and mutual respect
-- Commit to full healing and living as a team
-- Embrace differences in style and preferences (example: when someone's quiet, ask and not assume other is withdrawing)

- Create private zones (B)
-- Calls / written letters to family members
-- Therapists
-- Personal journals
-- By mutual agreement, details of specific conversations / messages

- Sexual health (B)
-- Openly explore and share sexual desires, both during sex and at other times
-- Disclose and discuss sexual phobias and hang-ups
-- Share what partners find physically attractive and work to address these wants
-- Be open about intentions for sex (signaling during the day, e.g.)
-- Allow for asking about sexual needs or issues without fear of shame or criticism
-- Keep all sexual interactions private between H&W except with therapists

- Other
-- Research whether children could benefit from IC, pursue if appropriate


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
Badhurt
Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 9:05 PM, June 26th (Thursday)

very detailed plan mhca, but i see a lot more with letter B when it is your wife who went on AM and cheated, not you. Seems like she is putting some of the blame for her poor choices on you and to me that is not acceptable. Yes, you have to work on things but she is the WW and your actions should be based on her earning your trust and helping YOU heal from the emotional damage to you, and not on her being allowed to in her mind justify that she had reasons that were acceptable to do what she did.
I'd concentrate more on her behavior and remorse and commitment to YOU and not allow her to blame shift this infidelity as partly your fault. And i sure would have the D papers ready and let her know that there will be severe consequences if you catch her lying to you again.

Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 12:41 AM, June 28th (Saturday)

Thanks Badhurt. WW and I had another rough night. I keep on pushing her to show enough empathy and responsibility before I'll agree to start the R plan. She just doesn't seem to have the self-awareness it takes. Maybe soon, maybe never. Til then this plan will have to wait.

I've never hit her, but I asked her if she remembered, very early on in our relationship, when she told me that if I ever hit her she'd leave me. She didn't remember that. I continued, suppose I hit you in the face, hard. And then three months later I did it again. And suppose for some reason you were still willing to consider staying. What assurances should you need? What would you need to be safe? How much work would I have to do to regain your trust?

I think maybe she got the connection to my pain from her A and false R. I can't be sure. Til I see her ready to do the work I'll stay in limbo -- or just switch to the D track.


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
Badhurt
Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, June 28th (Saturday)

mhca

You had another rough night because she still wants to rug sweep and not be accountable for what she did. There can be NO BLAMING you. You might not have been fulfilling all her needs but she was not fulfilling yours either. YOU HOWEVER DID NOT GO ON AM AND CHEAT TWO TIMES OR MORE!!!

If she wants R there should not be rough nights i think you should scrap the plan you wrote up because that plan puts you on trial for 50% when you had 0% of cheating.

You need to make it clear that if there is not
TOTAL TRANSPARENCY
REMORSE FOR WHAT SHE DID
NO CONTACT WITH ANY MALES ALONE OR ONLINE
COMMITMENT TO YOU AND YOUR MARRIAGE
Then there can be NO R.

I guess you are not fond of how the "limbo" feels. No one would blame you for that.

If you do not get the above, then you will be in limbo until she decides to find another man to sneak around with.

See the attorney Monday and give her the papers the next time you have a rough night. That will either knock her ass out of the fog or you will have your answer that she ain't changing.

Limbo means she is still in control and you continue to suffer. Not acceptable!!!


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, June 28th (Saturday)

I think maybe she got the connection to my pain from her A and false R.
Too many times the WS gets it and then forgets it.

I have no answer as to why that seems to be the problem with trying to get through to them about the huge amount of pain affairs cause.

It does seem the WW hears what we have to say, yet it doesnt register with them. But when they hear or read the exact same thing from someone else, it then registers.

I dont think they like the pain they caused the BS, so they tune it out. Like having the radio on in the background but not even paying attention to the song.

Has your wife read any books like Not Just Friends and some of those. I think After the Affair is another one.

Those books are pretty good at getting the point across as to how the BS feels.


Posts: 4032 | Registered: Jun 2002
ILINIA
Member
Member # 39836
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, June 28th (Saturday)

I haven't read any of your other posts, but unfortunately it takes some WS more time than others to really get it.

Most of the fog left my WH on Dday, but more lifted when he had to face his leadership and HR and tell them why he needed to move teams (2 months out) prior he had me convinced they could still work together. The remaining fog lifted when we each saw lawyers to discuss and sign a postnup. (4 months out)

Reading this thread, it seems like reality hasn't set in for her yet. IMHO I would meet with a lawyer at least to be more knowledgable. I told WH two that I was going to meet. told him which one I selected to start drafting the document. I think just the excercises of documenting all the assets and having strangers part of our marriage was a big enough jolt that WH really woke up.

It's a long road, we are over a year out and we are following a plan similar to yours, but I wouldn't say we are in R yet.


Entering R slowly and cautiously...

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jul 2013
Badhurt
Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, June 28th (Saturday)

mhca

I would be very careful about being so enthused about how things went. Either way , that should have no impact on you telling the OM wife. She deserves to know what you know and make her own decisions and you will be taking a major step I. Insuring that he will want no part of your wife/ . I would also make it clear to HIM that your wife has confessed and that you WILL expose him at work if he ever has any contact with her again in a non business manner. She needs to get out of that job period.
As far as her confession , you had the evidence. What could she say.
You do not need to immediately focus on why. You need to focus on her begging you to give her another chance and for her to understand that your demands are not requests. There are many instances on here about WS lying even during MC
You are not in the R stage yet. You have a WW who spends her workday in close proximity to the guy she was banging .
If that does not change you are in for a long period of nervous anxiety.


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, June 28th (Saturday)

Badhurt: did you reply to the wrong topic? This seems to be someone else you're referring to. Luckily for me the OM in my case is 90 minutes drive away. Thanks.


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
peoplepleaser
Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, June 28th (Saturday)

She's just not there, yet. I'm so sorry for that. Mine wasn't for a while either.

First, TELL THE OBS!!! I'm so angry that what happened almost 3 years ago was NOT shared with me by the OBS. I had a right to know.

That aside, my WS agreed to some basic things I put on the table for R after our separation. She followed them like a blueprint without the understanding for a bit. True remorse came when I explained this:

The relationship is drowning in this and you are on the shore trying to coach me about how to stop the drowning and throwing me a life preserver that's just out of reach. This happened to us, not just me. I am so scared and anxious about everything that happened because you aren't sharing it all with me and because you aren't in it with me. I don't need your coaching, and unless you get in the water with me and swim back to shore alongside me, I will help myself to the opposite shore. If you are so afraid of what you did that damaged our relationship that you can't bring it fully into the light with all the thoughts and emotions that surround it, then all you are doing is making my assumptions about it worse. Until you can do that, I will have to find my own way, because your lack of true remorse and teamwork is hurting me more and I don't deserve that at this point. The relationship will drown if you don't help me. I will let it go in an effort to save myself.

While she finally expressed true remorse by crying and validating my feelings that night, it took a few months for her to fully embody it. It was enough for me to continue to work on R, though.

The truth is that you deserve more from her. I commend you on the details of your contract, but caution you about it for several reasons. First, it was an independent project, even though she was invited to make changes. While expressing your needs to R is necessary and independent of their input, a full contract is something that is better developed with teamwork and a blank piece of paper, IMHO. Second, I agree that too many things are your responsibility. I think it's wonderful that you are willing to do so much to R, and that you are willing to commit to it via contract. But if you look at the percentages, I think at least 51% is on the WS after infidelity.

At this point I suggest coming up with a few concrete things you need that you aren't getting to "consider" R. Make them simple and realistic, but don't sacrifice anything from the list you need. I have transparency, IC, MC, full disclosure, no alone time or secret conversations with feminine women, and remorse on mine. Full disclosure and "true" remorse have taken time, but she committed to them when we decided to R. Once your basic needs are being met, then you have her expressed and demonstrated commitment to begin to build a contract for saving the M. Until that happens anything you put on paper in such detail will mean nothing.

And, I'm not defending her, but as she begins to fully realize the amount of damage she has done to you, her and the relationship, a long list of do's and don't's will be overwhelming. I couldn't imagine facing the worst of what I was capable of doing to someone I love and trying to follow specifically outlined steps to prove myself. If she is successfully progressing in IC you might find that she has some good ideas (even the same) that you had now. You've taken her ability to show you her progress by being able to later come to you with her own ideas about how to prove she is committed to making you feel safe. We all need to feel as if we can creatively and productively fix our own problems and the devastation we caused. You will need some demonstration of her growth. If she spits back the ideas that you've already expressed you will have no way of knowing the difference between following an outlined plan or truly experiencing self awareness and growth.

I share those thoughts will the intention of providing you support, some things to think about and some experience in attempts to micromanage the process. I try to control what hurts me because for some reason I believe understanding or controlling the actions of others will keep me safe. Not only does it not, it can drive a wedge toward my own destruction. I am just coming to terms with that and thought my insights my help you.

Take the time to embrace your pain and self-soothe. Make your demands simple, realistic, appropriate, and unwavering. Until she is able to meet you where you are, focus on healing yourself.

Hugs to you.


WS: 39--2 EAs
BS: 39--me, faithful
DS: 6
9 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 627 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, June 28th (Saturday)

Peoplepleaser: thanks so much, that was lovely and very very helpful. I appreciate it very much.


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
peoplepleaser
Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, June 28th (Saturday)

Oh good. I'm glad. I was hoping it wasn't coming across as critical. This is a crappy process and I shared all that with the intention of helping you set yourself and your WS up to win.

Good luck.


WS: 39--2 EAs
BS: 39--me, faithful
DS: 6
9 year relationship in R.
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013.
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011.
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 627 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
sri624
Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, June 28th (Saturday)

after the discovery of an affair, and then gling through a false r, i realized that the only course of action that seems to work in the BS favor is hardball. nothing and i mean, nothing else at least in my case was going to work. it was either my way or the damn highway. that was after i found out about the continued cheating and false r. they already know the pain and devastation that cheating can cause. they know. but they keep doing it, simply because they want to. yes, they have a lot of personal issues...but they do it because they like it, it feels good, and they can get away with it. that is all.

i like you list...all of it. i hope you dont blame yourself for any of it. nothing. the cheating is all on her. you sound like a good husband, and father. if she was going to cheat, there would have been nothing you can do about it to stop it, you know?

keep you list. if she complies, then only time and consistent respect for your requirements over a long period of time will BEGIN the process of healing on you end. if she does not....or if she balks...or complains, then you will know that she is not serious. i dont think truly remorseful spouses who are sincere in changing, and being transparent...and willing to do whatever it takes to help you heal will say no to your requirments. they are all very normal. i mean, wouldnt you do the things on that list as well?

i had a long list too...and i was so happy initially when my cheating husband at the time agreed to my terms. he agreed to everything except giving me access to his phone records...not the physical phone...he agreed to that, but not the phone call detail that shows everything. i let it go initially....because i was in denial...and accepted that it was "okay" that he did everything else. and he did...he was great. but deep down i know something was not right by him refusing to provide me with the records. 9 months later i learned he was still cheating the whole time.

next time around...i had my list...like you...and when he refused, i through him out. i meant business. it was only until he knew that i would really leave him that he decided to get his head out of his ass. and he did. the records were horrific....proving that he was out of control and still cheating...but it all needed to come out.

he looked like a fool. but it wasnt about him..it was about me and what i needed to heal..and i needed the truth and transparency.

i think you are doing the right thing. i think if she doesnt comply, serve her papers or throw her out if you can. that is the only way...the only real shot left when dealing with cheaters. hardball. the crying, and showing them all our pain does not work...they already know that...especially the ones who do false r. they feel bad because of the mess...but it is rarely enough to encourage them to enter into a true r. these are not threats i am suggesting, just another way to look at it. i hope you are okay.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 956 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 1:21 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

WW and I are in a nice hotel in another state while the kids are at camp. Today was a pretty good day but I triggered HARD when we flew over the city and I imagined all the places she met other men from AM -- maybe a dozen spots. She was a few seats over and didn't see me cry.

Tomorrow is our 19th anniversary. I hope it isn't too hard for either of us. I have mixed feelings at the moment. I think she is still gradually starting to understand the impact of her A and what we need to do to fix it. On the other hand, my emotions are so raw, volatile, and burned out that I feel our R plan will have to wait a bit longer. Still need to heal.

I think WW is upset that I can't commit to R yet. She truly wants to work it out. She's recently registered on SI and has read this thread and many others and I think that's a great sign. There is hardly anything I've written that I haven't told her directly so it's not new information for her but maybe it will help to see it all in one place. But it still seems so hard and I'm still so tired, and we have so far to go.

So I guess carry on for now, and accept Limbo for the time being.

[This message edited by mhca at 1:22 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 3:02 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

WW and I had a decent anniversary all things considered. Mostly playing tourist while were out of town. A few jumps into talking about the A helped me feel heard.

She asked if it would be ok to read my posts here on SI. While there are some downsides I agreed. I think this has given her a much deeper appreciation of the impact of the A than she had before. It really feels for the first time that she might be "getting it" but hard to say for sure after only a couple days. I've suggested she use the wayward boards for support. Not sure she's willing to post but we'll see.

Today after some difficult periods, feeling apart, we read a chapter of After the Affair out loud to each other. Sounds weird but we both agreed it helped us feel better connected and raised some things for us to work on together. Next time I'll probably choose what we read, I'm guessing something from NJF.

My emotions are still too volatile to embark on a real R effort but they are headed the right way, and WW is making steady progress with no slips recently. I'd like her to be more open about some of the mundane aspects of the A and she's coming around on that, and I haven't had any sense that NC is at risk. She's given me all the passwords to all her accounts and nothing problematic. I don't have any feeling that NC has been broken but my paranoia is keeping me alert to any clues in that since it's so easy to go underground with communications.

I'd also like her to open up more about her feelings and help me understand how the possibility of an A became legitimized in her mind, but slower going on that front. I don't think she's resisting me so much as having a hard time talking about it. But I think her efforts are there and I appreciate those. This will be important because it's still the emotional risk of putting my heart into R that keeps me from jumping in. If we can get started on R soon, maybe 3 or 4 months after the last D-Day I think that would be a great achievement but I don't want to force it and revert back to limbo.


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 10:25 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Thanks for the update.

That isn't paranoia you feel - it's healthy self-protection at this point, and for at least the next few years. Just sayin'....


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10166 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 8:48 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Now on a plane with WW and ready to return home. It was a good trip, got to unwind and connect a bit, but now I'm nervous. I feel my chest tightening again as I face the triggers and patterns that we left four days ago.

I've felt more like well be able to work things out so that's good, but now I feel like the wave of pain is ready to come back. Ugh. Good to escape for a bit I suppose, and maybe things will be better now once we're home.

Now it's time to power off electronic devices....


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
Badhurt
Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Mhca

Look, your wife spent the better part of it looks like a year hooking up with other men online, and even went back for seconds after being caught the first time. If you were not still apprehensive and nervous about returning home after getting away from it, there would be something wrong with you.
The fact remains you are living with a woman who some disgusting things to you and she does not get to rug sweep that after a nice week end. If you let that happen, you will get it again.

You need to insist on maintaining all of your demands and transparency and she needs to understand that there are no more second chances. Your trust will tale a lot of time and hard work and commitment on her part for her to earn back. She needs to totally understand that.


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
Brandon808
Member
Member # 35619
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

mhca,
I have to say your willingness to even consider R is impressive. Her reaction to being caught I find just as shocking as the cheating itself to be honest.

Personally I''d challenge her like this...
Go to anyone. Could be someone you know or just a stranger. Pose to them this scenario. You just found out your SO has been using AM and having multiple A''s. You catch them in the act but give them another chance (bet half the people you ask stop her right there and say no way they would). Your SO disregards that second chance and continues to cheat. You wouldn''t see that as black & white, right? You know people cheat all of the time right?

My guess...she knows damn if she even suggested that a lot of people would curse her out. In fact she might risk getting punched for saying something so ridiculous.

My point is that she knows damn well that she''s full of sh*t with her excuses, blameshifting and minimizing.

Brother, I feel for you. I would say for all intents and purposes your M is already dead. The M cannot be said to be truly alive with everything she did and put you through. It is her responsibility...not yours...to resurrect the M. To regain your trust. I hate to say this but the person you described, the person capable of what she did is not someone who will truly get to the level of remorse you deserve. Not for all that she did. She knows you want to stay in the M. She clearly doesn''t fully appreciate that.


xBH
D final 8/2012

Posts: 3872 | Registered: May 2012 | From: southeast
mhca
Member
Member # 41920
Default  Posted: 9:27 PM, July 5th (Saturday)

Ended up with another meltdown, crying as the plane was taking off. I hope the passenger next to me didn't notice. I sat next to WW this time, and she comforted me which helped. But, once we got home, the weekend has been decent -- we saw some good friends on the 4th and have been alternating between chores and relaxing today, and dropped by for a friends birthday party.

It's now a over a month since the latest falsehood was uncovered and I'm not needing as much antianxiety meds (was several times a day a month ago, now usually just a bit before bed and sometimes not even then) and my physical reactions are lightening.

I'm not feeling so driven to work on the M, just letting it go a bit since I can't really control things as much as I sometimes want to. I think that's healthy. I feel like soon I will be able to work more on myself and my goals soon rather than just being tossed around by the emotional storm.

Just wanted to respond to some of your thoughtful comments, thanks everyone:

ILINIA: IMHO I would meet with a lawyer at least to be more knowledgeable. I told WH two that I was going to meet. told him which one I selected to start drafting the document. I think just the exercises of documenting all the assets and having strangers part of our marriage was a big enough jolt that WH really woke up.

I noticed that WW started to pay more attention when we went over the finances and what a D scenario would look like. Maybe it didn't seem real until then?

sisoon: That isn't paranoia you feel - it's healthy self-protection at this point, and for at least the next few years. Just sayin'....

Thanks. I suspect you're right but I so loathe the idea of this continuing for so long. But it is what it is I suppose. I will protect myself.

Badhurt: If you were not still apprehensive and nervous about returning home after getting away from it, there would be something wrong with you.

Thanks. Any validation of my sanity is welcome these days. :)

You need to insist on maintaining all of your demands and transparency and she needs to understand that there are no more second chances. Your trust will tale a lot of time and hard work and commitment on her part for her to earn back. She needs to totally understand that.

I think (hope?) she does. Meantime she's been completely open AFAIK, and has been meeting my requirements.
Brandon808: I have to say your willingness to even consider R is impressive. Her reaction to being caught I find just as shocking as the cheating itself to be honest.

I agree. The false R has been just brutal.

Brother, I feel for you. I would say for all intents and purposes your M is already dead. The M cannot be said to be truly alive with everything she did and put you through. It is her responsibility...not yours...to resurrect the M. To regain your trust. I hate to say this but the person you described, the person capable of what she did is not someone who will truly get to the level of remorse you deserve. Not for all that she did. She knows you want to stay in the M. She clearly doesn't fully appreciate that.

Time will tell. This is the hardest thing I've ever experienced and I'm certainly not going to set myself up for another fall. But there's no way to guarantee it, the best I can do is to look for real change. Certainly the M we had is dead and gone, and the only thing left to see is what will take its place.

[This message edited by mhca at 9:46 PM, July 5th (Saturday)]


Me: BH 47 STBXWW 47 (Lklb5)
M 19 years, DS 15, DS 11
DD#1: 12/24/2013
TT/Broke NC/False R
DD#2: 4/15/2014
TT 4/23, 4/24, 5/31, 7/19
Divorcing

Sample recovery plan, feedback welcome: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=539961


Posts: 644 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: California
Badhurt
Member
Member # 41947
Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, July 5th (Saturday)

Mhca

Just remember , most guys who have had the experience you have had would have thrown her out on her ass by now. So while it is ok for you to be sad and emotional at times ( who would not) , you MUST show no weakness ore bactracking on your transparency demands. If she does not work you need a GPS on her car and she needs an I Phone that you can track her location on. And you cannot buy I to Im going to girls night out.
Your wife is now very experienced on how easy it is for a woman to get laid on adult sites and Ashley Madison is not the only one out there. And since she was caught twice she will learn from her mistakes and be better at it if she tries it again.

You cannot let your guard down over a few weeks of good behavior. She is a multiple time cheater, and the little exercise you did with how divorce would look to her financially needs to be kept fresh in her mind


Posts: 1097 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Eastern USA
craig2001
Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, July 6th (Sunday)

Your wife needs to be over on the WS forum and read many of the posts by fWW. The FWW's that got it and how they dealt with it all and R.

She should learn a great deal. I think one of the most important things she can learn on that forum is that she is not alone in what she did. Many people do something wrong and recover from it.

She or an affair is nothing unique or different.

I think in the beginning, many WS's think that their affair was unique when nope, they are not unique at all.


Posts: 4032 | Registered: Jun 2002
Topic Posts: 36