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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 9
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Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, June 28th (Saturday)


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
mightsurvive
New Member
Member # 38794
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, June 29th (Sunday)

I hope it's ok to repost my question as it came on the tail end of the last thread :)

I am hoping for some insight on this one. I think it came up today as I was reading the ask the wimenz thread. There was discussion on whether women O from PIV. I have only been able to do this a couple of times in my life (with WH as he is my only). Just before his A he purchased me my first vibrator which I enjoyed and used with him. Then he suddenly became resentful that I used it to O (probably when A started). Shortly thereafter he started saying that I wasn't attracted to him as I couldn't even O during sex....I must not want him....other women can O so there must be something wrong with me. I was feeling very badly about all of this and like there was something wrong with me or I was a bad person. It really messed with my head. Could anyone attempt to explain where this was coming from or put it into perspective for me?
Thanks


BW 37-me
WH 40
Kids
Dday Dec 2011
Reconciling

Posts: 48 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: midwest
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, June 29th (Sunday)

MS - my initial thoughts are that because the resentment coincided with the start of the A he was projecting feelings of guilt and anger.
He could have been using it as justification for his A.... 'My wife prefers her BOB to being with me so I deserve someone who actually wants me'.

Does that make sense?

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 2:23 PM, June 29th (Sunday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
dmari
Member
Member # 37215
Question  Posted: 12:28 PM, June 29th (Sunday)

Have you (WS) apologized to your children for betraying them, your spouse and family? Or do you feel you only betrayed your spouse?

Could you share YOUR insight/perception of infidelity impacting only the spouse? Or if you believe it impacted your children too, could you share how you arrived at that conclusion?

Thank you!


Me (BS): 42 Children: DD 19, DS 15
Settled at mediation
Officially divorced ... SOON!

Posts: 2233 | Registered: Oct 2012
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, June 29th (Sunday)

Dmari,

I am a BC (betrayed child), WW and a BW. I wear lots of hats! In terms of infidelity within my own marriage I identify mainly as a WW.

My kids are five and two, they have no idea what's gone on. They wouldn't even understand if I tried to explain now. If there is a point in their life when they do know and they do understand, yes of course I would apologise to them. I've been that kid and it meant a lot to me when my mum apologised to me and explained her side of it.

As for my husband's family, they don't know. My husband is adamant that they never find out. That decision is very personal to him, a lot of his FOO issues. I told him I would talk with them if he wanted but he says never to tell them and I support him in that.

My husband's best friends took the news of my A badly. He only told three people and they were really angry. I have asked if I can speak with them, listen to what they have to say and answer any questions they have. It's hard to get them all together because they're always away with work but my husband really appreciates that it's something I want to do.

Infidelity does not only touch the life of the spouse, it reaches deep inside a family and festers inside friendships. Apologies and atonement should always be offered by the WS to everyone who knows. Reconciliation is not solely with the BS.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, June 29th (Sunday)

Mightsurvive,

....other women can O so there must be something wrong with me.

This is either something he uses as "justification" for his A, or blaming you for something he may regard as a deficiency on his part.

The truth is, some women cannot orgasm from PIV alone. There is nothing "wrong" with them, and there is nothing "wrong" with the man who gives them PIV either. It's just the way they're made.

Some overcome the problem by stimulating their own clitoris during PIV or receiving stimulation from their partner if some position is possible for the couple where he can provide it during intromission.

with WH as he is my only

Well, if you were his "only" (as you SHOULD BE) there wouldn't be a problem, now, would there ? There would be nothing for him to compare. He would simply, then, accept you for who YOU are and how YOU are made, and how God gave YOU to him with the intent that he would do what is necessary in bed to give you sexual satisfaction, without regard to what "others" do.

I think he should be challenged that it is HIS SIN that he arrived at his marriage nonvirgin, and that he has NO RIGHT to foist the ramifications of that onto you.

[This message edited by tfkeel at 2:35 PM, June 29th (Sunday)]


Posts: 460 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 9:39 PM, June 29th (Sunday)

tfkeel,

This forum is for WSs to answer questions asked by BSs. Please do not respond to questions in here.

Thank you.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 37745 | Registered: Sep 2007
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 6:57 PM, June 30th (Monday)

When did you realize you wanted to be with your BS? How long did it take for this 'fog' to lift, and what caused that lifting?

Thanks


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:28 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

When did you realize you wanted to be with your BS? How long did it take for this 'fog' to lift, and what caused that lifting?

About 2.5 weeks after the A started. I was carrying some shopping from the car to the house when I felt like I was hit by a brick. I actually stopped walking and said out loud 'what the fuck am I doing?!' (With regards to the A, not carrying the shopping!)

A few days later I ended the PA. AP went bunny boiler and I didn't have the coping mechanisms to go completely NC. I still talked to him on the phone and by text, trying to extricate myself from it all for another couple of months but I de-fogged pretty quickly.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 3:11 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 6:09 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Pretty much right away but I still had a lot of work to do and had trouble showing it or acting like it. The fog lifted when my BH started to act like he'd be fine with or without me, basically stop taking my shit.

That's why I truly believe that 'you have to be willing to lose the marriage to save it' is invaluable advice for BSs. 'Nicing me back' didn't work. He didn't do the 180 (said he wasn't able to, it wasn't in him), but his version of it---his 'toughlove'---did the trick.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 37745 | Registered: Sep 2007
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Have you (WS) apologized to your children for betraying them, your spouse and family? Or do you feel you only betrayed your spouse?

My children are older. There was only one living with us at the time of my affair. He knew his Dad and I were having difficulty. I apologized for not being a good parent to him. It is one of the things that my BS is most angry about, that we were caught up in our own crap - me betraying and him just blindsided- and we dropped the ball on parenting. Sure, he was a senior in HS but trouble often starts then. We should have been more present in his life.

When did you realize you wanted to be with your BS

never did not want to be with him. His IC screwed him up telling him that all WWs want to leave their BS to be with their AP's. I did not. Did not want that life at all. I wanted to be with my BS but be happy about it and I was confused because I "thought" my AP was making me happy. In fact, I was miserable.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's


Posts: 5040 | Registered: Dec 2010
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 8:39 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

dmari - my children, family, and in-laws do not know. They knew I was a jerk, and I have apologized and tried to make amends for that. My actions affected everyone, children, family, coworkers etc.

painfulpast - For myself the "fog" started lifting one night when my BS came home late from work. I projected my infidelities on her. And started to address my issues. For me this all happened 8 months before dday


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
99lawdog99
Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I have a question for the women. Just recently my WW has been acting really jealous and getting mad if I even talk to anyone even her friends. We have been doing ok over the past several months, but it seems like all of a sudden she is acting like she has no trust in me and is really acting crazy accussing me of anything she can think of. I'm pulling out my hair trying to prove i'm not doing anything. Is this normal? Someone told me that maybe now she is just realizing what she did and it is now just hitting her. I don't know. She is getting really clingy and keeps saying she doesn't want to lose what we have and that she doesn't want anyone else in our lives. I don't get it as before she really did not want to talk about it and at times acted like it was no big deal. I told her why didn't she feel that way before with him and she says she was stupid and f'd up. Thank You

[This message edited by 99lawdog99 at 9:13 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 123 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
SoSorry17
Member
Member # 43415
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

dmari, My children are still to young to understand. My oldest knows I did something wrong and I have apologized and explained that I'm trying to make things better. My BH has no other family, but has known mine for years, they are his family. I've apologized to them as well, they know of my affair and I even used them to do it. My affair ended up being very public and I've apologized to as many as I can. If and when I can, I'll keep apologizing.

Infidelity destroys families and friendships. My affair is a perfect example. My family and BH friendships are ruined. We are attempting R, but the destruction has caused a wide gap, which may never be bridged.

painfulpast, I always wanted my BH. I was selfish and entitled and when everything in my life wasn't perfect and exactly how I wanted it, I made stuff up. I've recently discovered I never had any boundaries. I talked about what ever I wanted to who ever I wanted. I had it great in my marriage, I was the weak link. I don't think I was ever really in the fog. But what caused me to stop the affair in its tracks was my husband almost dying.


BH-SWAT70 Me-39
Three kids 11,6 and 3
He did file for divorce, the marriage will be ended 10/23/14.

Posts: 226 | Registered: May 2014
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

mightsurvive, my guess he feels inadequate, nothing you can do about that. He can say other women can withPIV but if you look at our forum going ask the womenz, its really stating the opposite most need outside stimulation. He is probably feeling not a man and honestly may be second guessing if Im sorry for saying this that maybe the OW were faking it, which then also underminds his manhood, plus he won't want to admit that perhaps he needs to learn a few tricks himself to help you. Cause that is what my BH and I had to learn, I had never had a O during intercourse, until after Dday and my BH almost had this mission to make it happen.

Of course I am not a man, I am just making a guess by what you have said and how my BH has said he has felt in the past.

dmari- My family, my children, my in laws do not know. Most of our friends do not either. We live in a small town and my BH does NOT want it discussed. Because so many time the BH is considered to be an ass to make the wife go cheat. Society today is an influence to be beaten. I myself wish we had told, I continuously feel we still live this lie or unreal life, and I think it stops us from growing. I think my BH and I really should be proud of how far we have come.

My kids were 7 and 5 at the time, so really too young to know, they did pay and I will carry that till I die, WE spent a lot of time outside in our garage for the first 6 months, I was able to keep food on the table, most of our appointments and the kids to there programs. But wew really were not there mentally. and I know I was missing for 2 months before dday. So my children may have paid , we wont know. I was told during that time that the kids were telling their grandparents all the fun thing they were doing and how fun it was that daddy was home all the time, he works away, so I amhoping they will be fine. If they do question I will be apologizing

99lawdog- well this can be projection. my sitch was a little different , he told he was going to , and I did catch an email. However, the jealousy can be reaction , Someof it was projection for me. When he saw a pretty girl and he was looking , it was also for the low self esteem of how I compared myself, couldn't believe he would still want me or find me attractive, So I couldn't stand him looking at pretty girls. Now I am 115lbs with blonde blue eyes and hour glass figure, nothing wrong with me except my thoughts in my brain. and this was for probably the first year for me. I had to loose it for myself , I was driving myself nuts.

The other side , she is projecting my BH has allways said its a tell tale sign of no good. So ....You two just had your dday I think from your registration date. Or she is still trying to blameshift , justify to herself why she did it, give herself a good reason, trying to make herself feel better.


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 435 | Registered: Apr 2013
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:28 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Or do you feel you only betrayed your spouse?

My kids are 11 and almost 13. They are too young to know.

I feel like I betrayed everyone who ever thought of me as a good person. I have apologized to the two friends who know. I feel like I was lying to them too.

My parents do not know. We don't have plans to ever tell them. Yet I feel like I let them down. They went through all the hardships of raising a family, and tried to teach me to be a good, honest, loving person. I am very ashamed that I decided to not be the person my parents raised me to be.

This is just my perspective, YMMV.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I always wanted my BW. I just convinced myself that I wasn't getting enough of her and life and whatever, and that my M and my As were what it took to make me happy. Like rachelc, I was truly miserable.

If the question is when did it really hit me, the answer is immediately. My BW and I were in different places when everything blew up, and I confessed via text. I waited for hours for her to come home to talk about it. My chest hurts now just thinking about that day.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
mchercheur
Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 7:37 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

What does this mean:

"It was just sex. She meant nothing to me."


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1393 | Registered: Dec 2012
MissWhoKnew
New Member
Member # 43580
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I guess the biggest question on my mind night and day, is whether a WS ever really gets it. Do they think about their BS when they are with the AP? If they found a way to justify crossing the line will it be easier the next time?

I am about 3 months out now and I find my feelings toward my WS are becoming indifferent. Do WS's even notice this type of change?

When I ask him why didn't he just tell me and then leave. His answer was that he loves me and never even thought about leaving me.

I know I asked several questions at one whack here, but as other BS know...the questions are never-ending.

[This message edited by TimeToGrowUp at 9:04 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


Me:BW 51, Him:WH 56
DS 26, DD 24; Dday: 4/19/14
Married: 29 years
Reconcile: A work in progress...
Dday: 4/2014 TT for over a year.
------------------------------------
You're not alone in how you've been, everybody loses we all got bruises

Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2014 | From: Land of Oz
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 11:25 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

For the WW: how readily did you notice the difference in "size"?

Did it factor in? How about technique? Was it something you thought to compare? Not necessarily during the act, but perhaps later while maybe considering the recent events.


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:30 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Do they think about their BS when they are with the AP?

No. I often thought about my H when I wasn't with the AP during the A (my H was out the country) but when I was with the AP, my H wasn't on my mind. It's huge compartmentalisation and escapism.

If they found a way to justify crossing the line will it be easier the next time?

For me, no. The opposite in fact! Before I had zero boundaries, I was a very broken individual. I'm not anymore because I've worked my arse off to make myself a safer, healthier person.

I am about 3 months out now and I find my feelings toward my WS are becoming indifferent. Do WS's even notice this type of change?

I do. It's horrible but I understand why.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:33 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

how readily did you notice the difference in "size"?
Did it factor in? How about technique? Was it something you thought to compare? Not necessarily during the act, but perhaps later while maybe considering the recent events.

Size and technique are irrelevant, that's not what the A was about. It had nothing to do with you in the slightest. Honestly, you could have the biggest package in the world and technique better than Cassanova and she would have still cheated.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 2:56 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:06 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

"It was just sex. She meant nothing to me."

I assume he is trying to communicate that there was no emotional connection with the OW.

However, I would call him on it. It's not 'just sex', it's sex with someone other than his wife. He needs to find out why he allowed himself to do that.

She 'meant nothing'. That may very well be. She was probably just the first person who showed any interest. But he needs to dig deep and work out why it was worth sacrificing his marriage.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:11 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

99LD, she is probably terrified you are going to leave her. She hasn't let go of the outcome of your M. She is also projecting her own behaviour onto you, thinking you are capable of the same.

Don't feed her ego kibbles by promising you are going to stay faithful but having a conversation about how much your respect yourself, how you are not broken and how strong your boundaries are is probably a good idea. Make it very clear that if you want to have sex with someone else, you will divorce her first, if only because your morals wouldn't allow it to be otherwise.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
mchercheur
Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 6:09 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Thank you (((BrokenButTrying)))

I really appreciate your answer.
I take my hat off to you for the hard work you are doing & wish you & Mr. BrokenButTrying the best of luck.


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1393 | Registered: Dec 2012
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 6:41 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

You are more than welcome.

Thanks for the luck, we'll need it!


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
99lawdog99
Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 7:01 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Thanks Broken, that really helped. That was a great answer. I really appreciate it. It just seems like out of no where she has lost her mind about this. Before it was always let's not talk about it and move on and now she is out of her mind accusing me of everything. It's hard for me to put up with it. One minute she says she now understands and is fine for a day and then, bang , she starts up again over the same thing. If I try and answer her and explain why I did something, she spins it and gets more nuts. I have to just shut up. All she keeps saying is that she doesn't want anyone else in our lives yet she is the one who let him in. Thanks again.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 123 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Kakamishi
For the WW: how readily did you notice the difference in "size"?

I did notice a difference in size. Not unlike you notice a difference in hair color, or the way it feels kissing someone with facial hair. But as a female, by the time I was noticing all of that physical stuff I was already knee deep in the EA. The size was noticable, but also irrelevant.

Did it factor in? How about technique? Was it something you thought to compare? Not necessarily during the act, but perhaps later while maybe considering the recent events

Technique difference was noticable. It was all new. Being with my H for so many years, I was used to predictable. Some things with AP I liked, somethings I didn't. I can imagine it's hard for a BH to understand, but it did not factor into why I was having the A. I liked the newness for a while, it was exciting. When I was in the A I thought being adored and lavished with physical attention was of critical importance. I thought about how my H didn't appreciate me like AP did.

Now, months after the A, when I think back on the acts with AP and his size, I don't want it, any of it. The attention I was getting was hallow, and I can see now AP mostly just wanted to get his rocks off. It makes me ill and cheap to think about it. Even thinking about it enough to write this out for you was difficult.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 9:24 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
norabird
Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

This is a little off-topicy maybe, as I'm not a BS in this situation, it is my brother who is the SAWH and my SIl who is the BW. But as my SIL keeps finding out more it is really disillusioning me about my brother who I always idolized. I'm just wondering...if I get in touch with him to tell him how disappointed and hurt I am by what he's done, is that hurtful or helpful to his attempt to get better? I don't want to overwhelm him with shame but I also want him to know how deeply disappointed I am.

Thanks for coming here to all those WS who post.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4190 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Thank you Broken and Family. Your insight is extremely valuable to me. And I'm sure others.

Reportedly WW slept with OM "only four times". (As if that makes things less devestating)

She told me it wasn't fulfilling. Only awkward. Upon me asking, I got the ever popular "he was longer but much thinner" line.

Sigh. Even after nearly two years, it's hard to figure out what she's honest about and what she's trying to shield my feelings from.

Thanks again.


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

mchercheur - what your BS is saying that there wasn't any love the OW. And that it is essentially about self-gratification.

I too would challange the just sex statement. If that was ok wouldn't he have approached the subject of an open marriage?

TimeToGrowUp - I had worse feelings with each line I crossed. But once that line was crossed it was easier for me. Until after DDay. The image of my BS is seared into my memories.

as I am only 6months out there are a lot of things I get. But there are also things I haven't gotten the full grasp on yet.

If your WS is focusing on you, being attentive, then they can notice. I can hear the emotions in my BS but slight changes in her tone.

Why didn't he tell you and leave? My BS asked me this several times. For myself, I never intended to leave. I wasn't in love. I was selfish, plain and simple.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

norabird

My brother was, at the outset, a source of support for me when the proverbial poo hit the fan. He has been on both sides of an A, although is generally the WS. He is unapologetic for his choices, but does seem sad that others are hurt. I don't know, I can't really analyze him.

When he found out about my situation he was careful to tell me what he felt without judgment. He did not tell me what a horrible person I am, but did tell me that he believed my actions were horrible. They were, and are. I appreciated his support and concern.

Having said that, he is one of the sources of FOO issues for me in my life. At the end of the day my brother is a predator, and has violated other people's sanctity of self. Some of those people were my friends.

I think that if he had been a truly remorseful WS, or had only ever been a BS that his insight would be more useful. I want the people in my life (FOO) to support me, but not condone the bad choices. My mother tried to excuse away the choice and tried to put some of the blame on my BS. That was the last time I spoke to her.

I think that if you can be compassionate, sharing your disappointment in him, sharing your hopes for his recovery and process, and sharing your sadness over his repeated hurting of your SIL can be extremely helpful.

I wish I had a sibling to do that for me.

TimeToGrowUp

I am about 3 months out now and I find my feelings toward my WS are becoming indifferent. Do WS's even notice this type of change?

I am extremely sensitive to changes in my BH. I can feel when he pulls away, and I know when he is indifferent to my presence.

I think DrJekyl hits the nail on the head when he wrote that it was painful to cross the line but got easier every time. For me it got easier until it started getting harder again.

There is no evidence in the change of my emotional state in my texts with the last OM. However, I was beginning to head into a total breakdown. It was almost impossible to justify it to myself, to rationalize, and compartmentalize it any more.

It was wrong. I knew it was wrong. I had done it anyway, knowing it was wrong. My conscious just took time to catch up. I still get physically ill when I remember that conflict.

My BH is the only person in my life who has ever loved me. My FOO tries, but they have their own impediments to love. I have always loved my BH, but it has been an immature love. I am working to grow it, mature it, and live it.

[This message edited by Wayflost at 12:26 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 399 | Registered: Dec 2013
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

norabird - it is going to depend on your brother. My brother supported me, but this is not a good thing. He explained to me how women do not understand, and then told me about some of his serial affairs. And that was the last time we talked. Although in my case my brother is my NPD mother's golden child. So in my case didn't help a bit.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

One of the things I struggle most with is the humiliation of it all. I feel like I was humiliated in my WH's eyes - subconsciously maybe even he looks at me as a woman who "couldn't satisfy her man". I wonder a lot if he feels a certain confidence from knowing he was the cheater, and that he has a wife who was faithful. Does that make him feel like more of a stud? Like, he's in the club with all these great powerful men who get to have their pick of the ladies and even though he is remorseful, I worry he still finds that validating. Is that a reasonable fear, or am I completely heartsick for no reason? I wonder if he has less respect for me as a woman because I am NOT fighting off men left and right.

So, does a remorseful WS feel they are better than the BS for being able to "get some"? I know that's probably a stupid question, but I'm stuck on it.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Plainpain

If he is remorseful in any sense of the word, than no he would not feel like a stud. I feel like a weak peasant not some great stud. I look at my BS as strong and dedicated not some second hand person. My BS is much better than I. But I am working hard to be equal.

Seriously, if there is anything I have come to learn is that anyone can "get some" The reason that you are not fighting off men left and right is you have been sending "unavailable signals"

Hope that helps


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Plainpain,

R is a gift, one that I have not yet earned. I feel most of the time that I am unworthy of my husband. I don't expect that the shame will ever leave me.

So no, I do not believe a remorseful WS has those feelings. Quite the opposite, in fact.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Razor
Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Change the gender and I second PlainPains post.

I even read in a affair recovery book that many WS find their affair affirming of their sexuality and self worth.

Its a question that is just out there in my mind. Does my WW feel more confident in herself because she proved that she can find a replacement to me should she want or need to. Whereas I fell that I am easily replaceable.

But this is a question that is not answerable. At least in a way thats believable. This is because its easily lied to. WW can lie and there is no way I could ever know.

So do WWs find their affair affirming?


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 1:24 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Razor,

I did not find my As affirming in the least. There were moments of temporary "highs" but for the most part, I still felt worthless. I was a secret. A side piece. I wasn't worth leaving a wife over. And ultimately when he found out I confessed, he split like a cheap pair of jeans. Never heard from him again.

Those few moments of "high" were still clouded. It was never a true, genuine, "Yes! I rawk!". Ever. I was doing everything to find a feeling of worth, of accomplishment. Never found it.

The As affirmed one thing. I really was trash. I really was worthless.

Obviously since then there has been a crapton of self work. But no. Affairs were not affirming for me.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6253 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:27 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I second everything Aubrie said. Especially this

I was doing everything to find a feeling of worth, of accomplishment. Never found it.

The As affirmed one thing. I really was trash. I really was worthless.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Joanh
Member
Member # 39146
Default  Posted: 2:30 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Razor, there is no easy answer for it. In my affairs I felt wanted, and I felt sexual, I felt like a woman. I saw myself as a mom aging getting old,felt like I had a husband that only wanted nookie cause he was a man and was interested in his own pleasure. I felt worthless and I felt like a failure in almost all areas of my life.

The only place I had felt confident in my life was when I had my salon and I gave that up for my children and my husband. But the reality with that is I felt like a fraud.

The times I was with the AP he gave me the illusion of perfectness. of being on pedastle. It was like for me anyways being at the perfect point when I have been drinking , where I feel free to be me and not feel like the failure, but add that one more drink and down down I would fall, It was for me kinda like chasing the dragon. Not frickn healthy, totally self destructive. But that feeling was more important to me than anything at that time.

Familyfirst.

Size well never really thought about it.

I guess I did some comparing, in my opinion no different than any man or woman does? I don't know. It wasn't my, oh my god he's huge or he's small, that was the controlling factor. Every man woman is different. it just is. No different than any man I have ever kissed from the time I was 14 has been different.

I hope that makes sense.


BH 39
WW 43
D day November 9, 2012
3 children 22, 8, 6
Just....

Posts: 435 | Registered: Apr 2013
steppingup
Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 2:44 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Of course there is nothing wrong with you, my WW can O easily, typically in a few minutes, but what I have always found weird is that I used to buy Vibs and try to get them into our sex life only to find she would be shy about it, only occasionally allowing me to play with us with them. Fast forward through two affairs she had, after the last DDay, she all of a sudden exclaims, "I like vibs, there I said it", and I was like...SOoooo what took so so long to say that. It was like she was embarassed to tell me they were fun, of course they are fun, that is why they sell so much, that is why they are made. I see no issue with them IN a relationship. I have a personal problem with them if the spouse is useing them to avoid intimacy with me (e.g., getting off before I get home, and then she is no longer sexually tense for us to enjoy). There is nothing wrong with you. What is wrong in many marriages is that couples are afaid to talk about sex honestly, what they like, what they dont like, etc. That is one of our issues we are working out in MC. Good luck.


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 416 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

plainpain --

I wonder a lot if he feels a certain confidence from knowing he was the cheater, and that he has a wife who was faithful. Does that make him feel like more of a stud?

Honestly, I thought like that during the As sometimes. Here's a tangent: Before the A's, but when I was slipping mentally, I was looking for anything to connect with BW (except doing the useful thing and saying something was wrong with me and with our M). Our friends loved Mad Men, so I picked up seasons 1 and 2. That became something we did together.

During the A's, there were plenty of times when I thought I was Don Draper. That I was in demand, and if my BW couldn't see that, then I deserved to cheat. I did get caught up in the whole game of it.

I could not think less that way today. Anyone can lie and cheat and sabotage their family. All you have to do is seek out someone as low and damaged as you are right then. If you want to cheat, you can. There is no shortage of broken people looking for their equal. There is no pride or confidence to be gained from that. I cannot stress enough that cheating is not an accomplishment; it is a failure.

I don't feel like a stud. I feel like scum. During the worst times, I still wonder if I am a sociopath. I still tell my IC that I am not completely sure that I am not just bullshitting her (which is kind of self-centered in its own right, thinking I could fool a professional). I don't have any swagger about the things I have done.

What I think about my BW, on the other hand, is completely different. I had zero idea she was this strong. She amazes me with her grace and ability to ferociously protect her family. Her faith in me puts me to shame.

Some people who want to just screw around would probably never give my BW a second look. That is to her enormous credit. Anyone who values honesty and trust and family would fall all over themselves to be with her. I don't feel like I have anything "over her." She is so much better than me. All I can do is try to maybe someday be worthy of that.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Thank you so much for your responses and for your kindness in your honesty. I know during the A my WH felt very entitled and very "Don Draper", and I know he is very ashamed now and says things very much like what you have said. Much as I hate thinking of him feeling low and less than worthy of me, I really hate the thought of there being a corner of his mind that might still feel validated by his A.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Question for WW (heh again):when you met up with your AP, Was it with the intent to have sex? Or would you meet for something more innocuous like ..say...cofee?

I am this of WW whereas i think the men are more prone for the physical than emotional. (Although that's probably stereotyping. Sorry)

Also, how often did you see the AP? How often would you have wanted to see the AP?

Sorry for all the questions. It's just that i feel like I've discovered the Rosetta Stone of infidelity here.


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

the only thing that I confirmed from my affair was that I was broken, and I had a big hole to dig myself out of, personally, and maritally. I do not feel validated because I had it. I feel used and that I was a user. It validated that I was willing to do awful things just to feel good about myself. that's about it. And that good feeling lasted about 3 seconds.
Any truly remorseful WS will not feel any positive feelings about their affair, IMO.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's


Posts: 5040 | Registered: Dec 2010
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:25 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

How often would you have wanted to see the AP?

about the same amount as a cocaine user wanted their fix. Same brain chemistry.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's


Posts: 5040 | Registered: Dec 2010
SI Staff
Moderator
Member # 10
Red  Posted: 6:29 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Steppingup,

Please do not answer questions in this forum. It is strictly for BSs to ask questions for WSs to answer.

Thank you.


Posts: 10000 | Registered: May 2002
AML04
Member
Member # 39682
Default  Posted: 7:34 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

It has taken quite a while but WH is starting to talk about the actual A in IC. They've discussed FOO, inner child stuff, and other things but not in context of how it related to the A.

The main thing I would like him to figure out is the compartmentalization. How was it so easy for him to detach? We were really trying to have a baby when it all started but he was able to tell himself it wasn't cheating and what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me.

I believe every choice he made to let it go a little further made it easier for it to go full-blown PA with ILYs. So how could we go through years of something that should have kept me forefront in his mind and he was able to shut that off.

I'm probably not making sense, I'm having a really hard time accepting it was so easy to forget about me and that he won't do it (detaching, not another A) again.

[This message edited by AML04 at 7:35 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]


Me-BS Him-WH DS 5/12
Met 2000, Married 2004
DDay 5/26/13, TT through 8/13
2.5 yr EA w/co-worker, PA 12/12 to 4/13
Hopeful for R

Posts: 870 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: MA
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 8:46 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Yakamishi

I saw the AP a few times a week. At first we were just hanging out as friends so the intent wasn't sex at first. But then it happened pretty much every time we saw each other.
We never went out anywhere together.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

AML

I was able to compartmentalise so well because my husband was away with work. I moved house shortly after he left so he had never actually been to the house I was living in. It was like a different life.

The biggest justification I created was 'he doesn't love me, I deserve to be loved.' And 'he doesn't care about me so why would he care that I'm doing this.'

I can't speak for your WH, I don't know what he told himself to make that behaviour justifiable in his mind. But demonising the BS is a pretty common one.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Razor/plainpain
during the EA/PA I did feel validated as a woman/sexual being. Someone was spending hours upon hours making me feel young and beautiful again. There was no talk of soccer practice or what's for dinner, only how fantastic I was and how much he wanted me. What I read in your question is if I took this validation and felt smug with my H. Or if I looked at H like he was less than because he wasn't getting some on the side? The answer to that is a big no. When I was with my H or kids I would compartmentalize AP and A, like they didn't exist. And then the reverse when I was with AP. Very much like a split personality. I've read on SI about revenge As, but mine was purely selfish and had nothing to do with H (except perhaps that I was vunerable due to lack of working on our M).
Yakamishi

when you met up with your AP, Was it with the intent to have sex? Or would you meet for something more innocuous

The first time I met up with AP I was very nervous, not sure if I was ready to go to a PA, but he was (*1000) and I realized that was the next step. That very first time I think I did it to keep the EA going. But after the first time, yes sex, or what ever physical contact we could do under the circumstance was understood to be the intent of every meeting
Also, how often did you see the AP? How often would you have wanted to see the AP?

As much as possible, but I didn't require the physical contact as much as I did the emails and phone calls. That's where I was getting my ego kibble. Towards the end of my A we were very physical instead of on the computer/phone and my euphoria started to wane. I realized what I really loved was him trying to woo me. So immature and foolish.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:32 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

AML04 --

I believe every choice he made to let it go a little further made it easier for it to go full-blown PA with ILYs. So how could we go through years of something that should have kept me forefront in his mind and he was able to shut that off.

This is absolutely true.

The question of "how can a normal person do that" is a huge question. I don't think it's a superpower -- I didn't wake up one day as a master compartmentalizer. I think of it as a muscle -- I worked on it and practiced it for my whole life. Eventually I got good at separating the things I didn't want to face.

I know I had this "skill" long before the As. For me, at my worst depression, is when I started with the big compartmentalizing. But I had been doing it all my life up till then.

It was a little by little thing with the As. When we kissed and the sky didn't fall, it was easier to do it the next time. The first time we had sex, I was nearly sick. But I was able to separate those bad feelings. That was the only way I could live with myself at that time. By compartmentalizing those feelings, it made it easier to go back the next time.

Your last thought was how to prevent that from happening. That is probably specific to your WS. For me, I realize what compartmentalizing did to me. So I avoid it as much as I can. I desperately try to address things in the moment, whether it's something with BW or just a feeling I have. Just like compartmentalizing is a muscle, not doing that is a muscle, too. It is something that I have to practice avoiding all the time.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Aubrie
Member
Member # 33886
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Question for WW (heh again):when you met up with your AP, Was it with the intent to have sex? Or would you meet for something more innocuous like ..say...cofee?
I never met my AP. But a plan was in place before I confessed. There was never an illusion of anything other than sex. That was the goal. Not coffee. Not food. Consummation.


Me - FWW * Him - QuietStand

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - J. Wayne

"What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?


Posts: 6253 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: South, Y'all!
FrmrBH80124
Member
Member # 42967
Default  Posted: 11:53 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

I would like to thank all WSs for answering these difficult questions with openness and honesty.

One question that I had for my XWW was how she could have sex with someone else and then come home and have sex with me as though nothing happened? Was sex with someone else really no that big of a deal? I still struggle with understanding that compartmentalization.

I found out about the A when we were having sex and she was hurting in places she shouldn't have been hurting. Needless to say we never had sex again and I did get tested.

[This message edited by FrmrBH80124 at 11:54 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]


ME - BH 45
Her - XWS 30
D - April 2010 - never looked back and good riddance.
Happily remarried!

Though much is taken, much abides; and though we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are


Posts: 168 | Registered: Apr 2014
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Very often I hear WS say that the AP scared them - that they thought they may be crazy. They kept the A going because they were afraid the AP would tell the spouse if they stopped. Also, it seems that an inordinate amount of APs have family in the mafia. My WH said, in all sincerity, he was afraid his AP might actually have someone try to kill me after he confessed. What is that about? Is this something APs tell the WS to leverage them so they keep coming around, is this paranoia, or is this something WS tell their BS to try to say, "Yes, we had sex a whole bunch of times, but I really didn't want to".


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
ItsJust2Painful
New Member
Member # 43973
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

WHs - If you did a lot of sexting and nude photos with AP, do you still want to do the same thing with your BW post-affair? What about if your BW is pregnant? Would it gross you out to get a naked pic of her, when your non-pregnant OW have already sent you lots of naked pics over the years? Is sexting still a turn on, or is just old news now?


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 29
DD: 11/21/2013
EA/PA 6 months while I was pregnant with DS1, So many EAs over 3 years - who knows how many? more than 50, less than 100.
DS#1 born 8/13, DS#2 due 9/14

Posts: 8 | Registered: Jul 2014
AML04
Member
Member # 39682
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Thank you BBT and somethingremorse. It helps to hear from others that this kind of thing really is possible. And seeing how hard both of you are working on yourselves gives me hope.


Me-BS Him-WH DS 5/12
Met 2000, Married 2004
DDay 5/26/13, TT through 8/13
2.5 yr EA w/co-worker, PA 12/12 to 4/13
Hopeful for R

Posts: 870 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: MA
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, July 4th (Friday)

I recognize that it is difficult, of not undesirable, for the WS to discuss the specifics of their affair with their BS. That said, what is the best way to begin a conversation with the WS without raising their defenses to DEFCON 5?

Also, how much is "too much"?


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, July 4th (Friday)

You WSs are awesome, really. The honesty you put forth to help perfect strangers is inspiring. Thank you.

I have 2 questions:

First, I always imagine this circle: You have an interaction with AP, you get the 'high' of the excitement, etc. A few minutes later, the reality sinks in and you feel low for doing such a thing. You return to AP to feel better from feeling so low for interacting with AP. Is there any truth to this?

Second, did you ever, and please, be honest, before full remorse set in, feel like your BS was a fool/doormat/idiot for staying with you. Did you ever look down on them for accepting such a betrayal and not just getting up and walking out?

Thank you in advance


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 9:03 PM, July 4th (Friday)

Painfulpast,

I don't have an answer for your first question, but am going to use it for some introspection.

For the second, no. I didn't think less of my BW for not booting me straight out the door. I'm very grateful to her and worry that my A might still be a deal breaker for her.

As an aside, I'm sorry things are going badly for you. Please accept my sympathy.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 9:24 PM, July 4th (Friday)

PP, I remember feeling crappy thinking about going over there, going anyway, being in that totally separate world that I was able to compartmentalize, feel like shit, and go back the next time anyway. Not to escape the feeling low, but more to chase the high...hope I explained that well.

I never thought less of my BH for staying. I was very humbled by his strength and willingness to forgive and work through this with me.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 37745 | Registered: Sep 2007
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, July 4th (Friday)

Yaka

what is the best way to begin a conversation with the WS without raising their defenses to DEFCON 5?

Good question. If you''re willing to do this, I think you make it clear upfront that you won''t react angrily, that you won''t run screaming for the hills, but if she wants the M to work, you are needing some direct, specific answers to certain questions. Often we get defensive or lie or TT out of fear. Even though I don''t feel you''re obligated to remove that fear, that she should be forthcoming with whatever information you need...that''s my answer to your question. I''m sorry she''s reacting that way. It''s a clear indicator that she''s unremorseful.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:52 AM, July 5th (Saturday)

Plainpain

What is that about? Is this something APs tell the WS to leverage them so they keep coming around, is this paranoia, or is this something WS tell their BS to try to say, "Yes, we had sex a whole bunch of times, but I really didn't want to".

The AP in my situation turned bunny boiler.

The PA bit of my A lasted for three weeks, then I broke it off. Once I made it clear I didn't want to continue and had no thoughts of leaving my husband, the AP became very upset. He was physically violent towards me on one occasion, threatened violence a lot and also threatened suicide several times if I didn't leave my family for him.

It isn't something I told my husband to blameshift, I had evidence of all of this in the way of text messages. AP threatened the safety of my children and it was thF point I confessed and called the police.

AP's are very broken people. Damaged and unhealthy, in my case he couldn't handle the end of the A because he didn't possess the coping mechanisms.

I was very scared of him, I had severe anxiety about him waiting outside my house, breaking in and harming me. My anxiety is lessening now but I still have nightmares and wake up in cold sweats.

I guess my point is, in some cases it will be blameshifting but in other cases the AP really is a bunny boiler.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:59 AM, July 5th (Saturday)

I recognize that it is difficult, of not undesirable, for the WS to discuss the specifics of their affair with their BS. That said, what is the best way to begin a conversation with the WS without raising their defenses to DEFCON 5?
Also, how much is "too much"?

Personally I'm happy to talk at any time. I want my husband to heal and if I can do anything at all to help with that, I will. 2 o'clock in the morning? I'll talk. Out shopping in town? I'll talk.
I got over the defensive crap very quickly.

However, everyone is different and some WS' find it much easier to have a scheduled time to talk about the A. Maybe once a day or a few times a week, they know the TV and phones get turned off and a discussion takes place. Time it too, an hour?
Reassurance that you won't get angry while they are giving information will help, and you must try not to vent at these times. You can schedule a time to vent and they know they must listen and support you.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:07 AM, July 5th (Saturday)

Painfulpast

First, I always imagine this circle: You have an interaction with AP, you get the 'high' of the excitement, etc. A few minutes later, the reality sinks in and you feel low for doing such a thing. You return to AP to feel better from feeling so low for interacting with AP. Is there any truth to this?

Oh absolutely! This is exactly how it was for me. The first time the AP and I had sex I sobbed myself to sleep. When he text me the next morning he was shovelling ego kibbles like no one's business and it alleviated my bad feeling. So the cycle repeated.

Second, did you ever, and please, be honest, before full remorse set in, feel like your BS was a fool/doormat/idiot for staying with you. Did you ever look down on them for accepting such a betrayal and not just getting up and walking out?

My husband has not accepted my betrayal, we are not in official R just yet. It has never occurred to me that staying is weak. I know how much strength and courage R takes, I do not underestimate what I am asking of him. My husband is making a huge effort just to get to the point where he feels R might be possible, there is nothing weak about that.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 4:08 AM, July 5th (Saturday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 4:15 AM, July 5th (Saturday)

Nogoodusername

As an aside, I'm sorry things are going badly for you. Please accept my sympathy.

Thank you, and accepted. Things will get better for me. They always do. But I really appreciate the support.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
MissWhoKnew
New Member
Member # 43580
Default  Posted: 10:54 PM, July 7th (Monday)

Thank you to all the WS that replied to my question and the other BS.

I still am struggling with the fact that a couple of you WS loved your BS and it never entered your mind to leave them. What was the purpose of the affair and did you really think no one would ever find out?


Me:BW 51, Him:WH 56
DS 26, DD 24; Dday: 4/19/14
Married: 29 years
Reconcile: A work in progress...
Dday: 4/2014 TT for over a year.
------------------------------------
You're not alone in how you've been, everybody loses we all got bruises

Posts: 36 | Registered: May 2014 | From: Land of Oz
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 11:35 PM, July 7th (Monday)

I always loved BH and it never entered my mind to leave.

The *stated* purpose at the time was to prove to iryself, at age 41, that I still "had it," that I was appealing or sexy or whatever. No I never thought I''d get caught, even though I wasn''t that careful.

IMO it''s the extreme minority of WS on SI who''d say they didn''t love their BS, and were intending to D. Affairs are the epitome of irrational behavior.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 5:37 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

My answer is pretty much the same as 20Wrongs. Add to it that I had always been the 'good girl'. Always followed the rules, did what was expected...this felt exciting and different. I was scared and disgusted with myself, but I was drawn to it. And I never did think I'd get caught, even though I was careless, especially as I got deeper into it.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 37745 | Registered: Sep 2007
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

What was the purpose of the affair and did you really think no one would ever find out?

I am embarrassed to talk about wayward thinking. Questions like this one, or "Didn't you know you would hurt me?" are very painful.

For me, I put lots of energy into making sure I wouldn't get caught. But I still knew how risky it was. Like all the other lies, guilt, etc. that I was feeling, it became easy to push aside any thoughts of what would happen if I was found out.

The reason I started in an A was because I was able to separate out any thoughts of right and wrong, any consequences of my actions. To put it another way, if I wasn't able to compartmentalize parts of my life so fully, I do not think I would have been able to start an A. The A sort of existed alone. It had its own space in my head. And as the A went on, I had to separate it more and more just to get by.

Also, I am one of those people who "tried" to end the As. But I never figured out the problems with myself first. So I'd just fall back into that wayward behavior. It wasn't that I couldn't walk away. It is that I was still the same person who went down that road in the first place. I knew the right thing to do, but I never dealt with my practice of withdrawing from things and compartmentalizing. That person didn't get it.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
StillStanding1
Member
Member # 40144
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

somethingremorse, that was a very insightful explanation. Thanks for your honesty.

How would you feel during R, if things were going well, but you discovered your BS "snooping"?

Things with my WH have been going very well, but it obviously takes a LONG time to heal and a LONG time to redevelop trust. I am trying and he is trying. He is loving and kind, thoughtful, tells me where he is and who he is with. He is working hard to repair relationships with our kids. He hardly drinks at all and is rekindling his faith and meeting with friends who are supportive of his changes. All good, right? Yet, I had a nightmare that he had a burner phone and a few nights later, I offered to move his car into the driveway and he got out of bed to move it himself. I panicked that he actually did have a burner phone hidden in his car. Fast forward to Sunday, I was the only one home and decided to search his car. I didn't find anything. Murphy's Law dictates that he arrived home with our son mid-search.

I couldn't lie, so I told him what I was searching for and why. He thanked me for being honest and said "well, I understand" and "that makes sense". He hugged me. He didn't say much else.

How would it make you feel, if you were trying hard in R? Like nothing you do will ever be good enough?


Me: 40s BS, Him: 40s WH
M 21 yrs - 3 teens
LTA = 2+ yrs, Dday = 2/10/13, he moved out, he officially moved back in 1/25/14 and our work continues...

Posts: 691 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: MidWest
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, July 8th (Tuesday)

My WH did the whole "new wardrobe, new cologne, etc" thing in his MLC A. I believed he was vulnerable to an A, and so I kicked up the attention I gave him... which fed the entitlement thing he had going on at the time. My question is, when a BS notices the image changes, is that a sign that the WS is actively making themselves available for an A, or is that a sign that they are already in an A?


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, July 8th (Tuesday)

SS1, There's no way my BW can know that I'm behaving unless she watches me 24/7, which of course isn't possible. I don't mind it at all that my BW searches through my stuff because I look at it as an opportunity to prove that I'm doing the right things now. I no longer have anything to hide, and I'm eager to prove that in any way that I can. I just want her to feel safe again.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, July 8th (Tuesday)

MWK, I'll second what somethingremorse said. I didn't want to think about the consequences of getting caught. It was just to awful to contemplate. So I put those feelings in a box.

What was I getting out of it? I was (and still am) a very broken person. Through IC, I've come to realize the A was a different way of acting out on my FOO issues. It could easily have been something else self-destructive like alcoholism or drug abuse. Indeed, I find the language of addiction a handy way to describe what the A did for me.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
WearingTheHorns
Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, July 8th (Tuesday)

I know this question may be hard to answer since it pertains to my WW specifically, but hoped someone familiar with how the wayward mind works would be able to provide insight. After dday she told me whilst in her A's she couldn't bring herself to tell me about it because she didn't want to hurt me. That she knew she'd sinned horribly and was willing to spend eternity in hell rather than hurt me. Ok, on one hand I understand using a bit of hyperbole to make her point in trying to explain how she was trying to "protect" me from being hurt. However, more recently when we were talking she said the same thing again. This time it struck me as a bit "martyr-ish". She plays the martyr card occasionally and this time when she said how she was willing to suffer it really felt to me more "See what a wonderful person I am? I kept on cheating on you to keep you safe." Have any other WS's gone down this road of thinking, and was it what you really believed? Or was it just a way of assuaging your guilt?


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony

2 Cor 12:9-10


Posts: 272 | Registered: Dec 2012
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

stillstanding1 --

How would you feel during R, if things were going well, but you discovered your BS "snooping"?

He thanked me for being honest and said "well, I understand" and "that makes sense".

I am happy when my BW checks in on me. I want to have as many opportunities to prove to her that I am safe. I need to build up as many chips in my pile as possible.

If she triggers or feels embarrassed, I say the same things that your WH does. Plus I add that I am sorry that my actions have made her do these things that she hates. I understand that the only reason BW checks up on me is because of me.

For you, keep doing whatever it takes to make you feel safer. There are two different processes. One is the WS changing his actions to become honest. The second path is the one that the BS needs to go through to trust (as much as possible) the WS. These two processes do not happen at the same speed. You need to help your WH understand, if he does not already, that you are going through your process on your own timetable.

Hang in there.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

She plays the martyr card occasionally

I did this. It was part of my wayward thinking. It was one of the things that let me justify my As to myself -- "poor me, I am not getting any attention at home" and all that stuff. It was a way to temper the guilt, and a way to avoid any responsibility for my own actions.

When we started MC, our MC really called me out every time I went towards that martyrdom. I was eager to help, so I'd say those same things -- "I'm willing to be miserable/suffer/get beat up/whatever if it makes you feel better." Our MC cut that off every time.

The thing is, I do believe that I was sincere. Since I have always allowed myself to be a martyr, that was the pattern that I'd fall back into. I wasn't trying to manipulate anyone. It's just all that I knew. Through MC and IC, I am learning why martyrdom is not true (everyone is not shitting on me all the time), and is not helpful (it's better to discuss things with BW or whomever). These are hard lessons to learn. It is undoing decades worth of "training."


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
neverdidithink
Member
Member # 40568
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

Thank you all for your honesty and willingness to share here.

My question: When I trigger, WH's shame and guilt can get in the way of him providing any significant support to me. Did you experieince this? How did you work through it and how long did it take for you to be able to be able to deal with it in a constuctive way?


Me: BW 52
Him: WH 55
Married 8 years
4 20-something his and hers kids

Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell the color 9


Posts: 337 | Registered: Sep 2013
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:31 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

My question: When I trigger, WH's shame and guilt can get in the way of him providing any significant support to me. Did you experieince this? How did you work through it and how long did it take for you to be able to be able to deal with it in a constuctive way?

I read a LOT. And found this place. and I realized that shame was selfish and keeping me and him from healing. He needed to talk. I needed to listen. How to Help your Spouse heal from your Affair is a good book that addresses this.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's


Posts: 5040 | Registered: Dec 2010
neverdidithink
Member
Member # 40568
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)

Thank you rachel. I'm hoping he'll go back to IC to sort through this as it could be our undoing.


Me: BW 52
Him: WH 55
Married 8 years
4 20-something his and hers kids

Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell the color 9


Posts: 337 | Registered: Sep 2013
missingmyhubby
Member
Member # 43723
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, July 10th (Thursday)

Okay, i just found this thread so forgive me if this has already been asked, i have a mountain of questions but this one goes specifically to the men who were still deep in the A when your wives found out. Follow me if you can, this is long but my thoughts are driving me insane today.

So you get caught, you're in the fog a bit, feeling guilty, maybe not completely remorseful yet, but a tad sorry and you do truly love you wife..Which route made you (or would have made you) snap outta the fog and realize you better work your a** off to get back right with your wife.

A. (My dday and following days choice) cry, bag, yell, question, guilt trip the hell outta him, cry some more. The following days consisted of endless texts of "how could you" "dont you love me" "our poor kids..." etc. And then me wallowing in my sorrow at night and playing the pity game for weeks on end. Occasional sex but nothing meaningful like it used to be.

OR

B. Initial shock...maybe some crying and a bit of yelling but then straight ignoring and detaching. Obviously some contact regarding everyday life stuff, but no sex, no questions, no mood swings etc..

I know none of that probably made sense but bare with me as much of how i think i should be acting makes no sense. The reason i ask this is because i chose option A. as my reaction he seemed very annoyed (obviously) but i was furious and shattered. I couldnt think clearly and he was caught very off guard by me finding out. So he shut me out, didnt want to "deal with it" but has remained with me and says he does not want "us" to end. However, he has not gone far and beyond with trying to R and still talks to me very little. He does not leave anymore like he did when he was in the A but does seem annoyed still. Is this because i am being to nice and being a rug sweeper with occasional days of "breaking down"? I feel like i am treating him as if i did something wrong and i am trying to win him back. Should i stop being so nice, stop questioning, stop demanding he show me more love and just detach and let him come to me?? I know this sounds so childish but frankly it's been 2 months since dday and i feel like an abandoned child who just needs some attention. Any input would be great. Please be honest and blunt. I need to know how "he is feeling" and what will make him wake up and show me he loves me again. Might i add that i am 31 weeks pregnant so my time limit to get outta this stress bubble is running short before our 4th baby comes.

[This message edited by missingmyhubby at 12:29 PM, July 10th (Thursday)]


Together 13 years
Married 7
Me: 27
Him: 26
3 kids, 1 on the way
D-Day May 1, 2014

Posts: 73 | Registered: Jun 2014
ImSorry11
New Member
Member # 43517
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

"When you met up with your AP, Was it with the intent to have sex? Or would you meet for something more innocuous like ..say...coffee?"

Whenever my AP booked a hotel room the intent was obvious but we also went out to eat a lot. Lunch dates, dinner dates, coffee dates. We were both coffee lovers and foodies.

"Also, how often did you see the AP? How often would you have wanted to see the AP?"

Once a week. We wanted to see each other all the time, like a heroin addict wants his next hit. We had "countdowns". You know, t-minus 3 more days until I see you. Pretty vomit inducing now that I think of it.


Me: WW 31
Him: BH 34
DDay 5/23/14, 4 month EA/PA
Married 8 years Together 11
3 Beautiful Kiddos under 7

Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2014
ImSorry11
New Member
Member # 43517
Default  Posted: 2:15 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

"First, I always imagine this circle: You have an interaction with AP, you get the 'high' of the excitement, etc. A few minutes later, the reality sinks in and you feel low for doing such a thing. You return to AP to feel better from feeling so low for interacting with AP. Is there any truth to this?"

For some people there's probably some truth it this. I was addicted to the high. We both were. We couldn't get enough of each other. We were awful sad addicts.

"Second, did you ever, and please, be honest, before full remorse set in, feel like your BS was a fool/doormat/idiot for staying with you. Did you ever look down on them for accepting such a betrayal and not just getting up and walking out?"

Not once did I think my BS was a fool or doormat for giving me another chance. I would understand if he walked out. In fact he always said infidelity would be a deal breaker for him. Yet here he is attempting R with me. He's giving me a gift that I don't deserve.


Me: WW 31
Him: BH 34
DDay 5/23/14, 4 month EA/PA
Married 8 years Together 11
3 Beautiful Kiddos under 7

Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2014
missingmyhubby
Member
Member # 43723
Default  Posted: 5:58 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Hoping someone can answer my question above :-(


Together 13 years
Married 7
Me: 27
Him: 26
3 kids, 1 on the way
D-Day May 1, 2014

Posts: 73 | Registered: Jun 2014
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

MMH, you cannot nice him back into the marriage. No amount of crying, shouting, screaming, rugsweeping, or anything else will make him snap out of the fog and make him re-commit to the marriage.

You have to be your one and only priority. Not him. Not the marriage. You.

Detach. Detach. Detach. 180 and look after yourself. If he comes out the fog, starts working on himself and the marriage then that's great but if not then you'll be ok because you've already started healing.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Missingmyhusband-

Maybe I can help. I had 2 As 14 years apart, and after the first one my BW did 'A'. I never really snapped out of my fog, and 14 years later bam, she does 'B' (after multiple Ddays and lies) and I hit bottom, come to my senses etc. In our case it was too late.

Frankly, his reaction sounds like mine back then. I got resentful, blamed BW for all my problems, didn't tell her the complete truth, took the A underground, was an all around shitty person to her. That is one of the many things I deeply regret. That I didn't figure my shit out back then.

What I will say is that in retrospect, the fact that she did option A is not the real reason for my continuing on the path I was on. It was me, to her. Her reaction enabled my continued shitty behavior, but was not the cause. Does that make sense?

After my last A was discovered...
Once she started to detach, which she did for herself, not to make me change, I realized how low I had gotten. At first everything I did was in reaction to her detaching, but again, it was a very unhealthy reaction to my losing complete control over my life, her, my family, etc. Once I decided I had to change, I was able to change.

I would suggest detaching for your own sanity, not to try to get him to change. If you get the result you want, than its a bonus, but you should do it for yourself IMO.

I hope this makes sense.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
missingmyhubby
Member
Member # 43723
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, July 10th (Thursday)

Thank you both for your help--

Badchoice-- this helps a lot. More than you know, i am glad to hear it from a males perspective who has been in the situation i described. What you said makes total sense. I know i have to detach for ME but it's so hard when my mind is still telling me to fight for him and our M. People keep telling me that i have to be willing to lose our M in order to save it. It's hard wrapping my brain around that but i do understand what they mean. I just cant seem to get anything right. Thank you again, your thoughts on this were a big help.

Brokenbuttrying-- trying to nice my way back is my down fall. I honestly just got smacked in the face for it (not literally but figuratively) i had a plate of supper set aside for my H and when he got home he grabbed it out of the microwave and sat down to eat at the table. Being the nice person that i am i asked if he would like something to drink. His response? "I guess" (in an annoyed "whatever" tone). Ugh...i am sick of being so worried about pleasing him and getting shit on for it. But it is hard to stop.

[This message edited by missingmyhubby at 7:22 PM, July 10th (Thursday)]


Together 13 years
Married 7
Me: 27
Him: 26
3 kids, 1 on the way
D-Day May 1, 2014

Posts: 73 | Registered: Jun 2014
BlueBlueEyes
Member
Member # 43949
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, July 11th (Friday)

After 30 years of marriage and several affairs I've recently discovered, I insisted my husband attend therapy if we were to try and R. Soon after he started sharing the "true" issue. I was aware of a rape by a male teacher when he told me about 7 years ago. Now he's telling me about several SAs by adult men from the age of 6. My question for WHs is whether or not you used claims of SA to get attention and sympathy for yourself and to try to get out of being held accountable for As. This seems highly unlikely that men would do this, but I'm hearing from some on SI that I should be wary of these claims. Please help me here. It's difficult for me to believe a man would do this.


BW - 49
WH - 50
Married 30 years
Beautiful Son, Daughter and 2 Grandsons.

OW - multiple, just found out about ALL of them, Husband coming out of years of fog due to multiple childhood and military events.

Hopeful but cautious


Posts: 194 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Texas
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, July 11th (Friday)

Blue, trust your gut. Ultimately it''s only what you believe, that matters.

I can only hope that nobody, ever, would use claims of SA to "get attention" or dodge responsibility for their bad choices. Clearly, adults who were SA as children can have poor coping mechanisms, be emotionally immature, or act out inappropriately. That''s why it''s important to see a therapist and work to overcome that damage, but it doesn''t excuse anything.

It was probably very difficult for your WH to talk about his past, so if he seems sincere then yes, I would believe him.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
nlovemyfamily
Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, July 12th (Saturday)

For FWS, what about the collateral damage inflicted on the kids of the M that was betrayed? They are innocent and are asked to accept their parents betrayal ….??? Why do the innocent kids and adult kids need to be sacrificed for a love relationship that destroyed the intact family?

Posts: 420 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Concerned  Posted: 11:53 AM, July 12th (Saturday)

nlove, I''m not exactly sure what you''re asking, but clearly you''ve been struggling with trying to understand the mindset of your XH for a long time. During our A''s we WS may have given little thought to the collateral damage, but it''s the remorse and regret, the trying to make amends, that puts the "F" in FWS, IMO. Your XH apparently never regretted his choice to run away from his family, and probably never will.

Sometimes there are no answers. Sometimes it just doesn''t make sense.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
theseseatsRtaken
Member
Member # 43088
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, July 14th (Monday)

blueblueeyes,

It was only after my affairs came out and i started looking for ways to be vulnerable and fully open and honest with BW that i opened up about an abuse that i suffered at the hands of a more sexually mature male than me when i was younger. in my case this was a secret i had carried with me my entire life and had never shared with any person ever. not my wife, not a parent, not a best friend not a therapist, no-one.

Addressing your questions, i would never aim to use this experience to try and explain or justify my A's. I am very prepared to look at how these events may have contributed to man i became - but ultimately it was that man who chose his actions. As long as i am prepared to look inwards and explore my painful past and work to heal myself, i am not using it as an excuse.

Is your husband getting any professional guidance on these issues? If not, i would feel weary of its ability to become an excuse.


Me: WH 29
Her: BW 31 (RomanticInnocenc)
Our son: 6 months
DDay#1 Jan 8, 2014, DDay#2 Jan 10, 2014
Being given the gift of attempted R
I don't PM with female members.
"Your character is who you are when no-one else is watching".

Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, July 14th (Monday)

nlovemyfamily

Why do the innocent kids and adult kids need to be sacrificed for a love relationship

I love my family. My user name comes from when I was trying to stop my A and needed to constantly remind myself of my priorities. That said, I had an A! Not just a one night slip up, but for over a year. Day after day I was selfish and acted like my needs were all that mattered. I can't explain how that was possible. It was like I was on drugs, powerless to resist the pull. Feeling young and free is a great feeling, and it takes maturity to realize that there's more to life than your own needs. I'm sorry your xH never snapped out of it.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
99lawdog99
Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, July 14th (Monday)

The other day my WW said that she rarely came when she was having sex with the OM. If she came 2 or 3 times total she was lucky , she said he was very selfish. Her A was about 4 months total and she would go over to his house 2-3 times a week in the morning before work for sex. They never went anywhere or did anything else. So my question is why if she wasn't climaxing was she going there. wasn't she enjoying it or what? I don't understand. Is she lying to me or could this be possible. I guess this is directed to the woman. Thank you .


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 123 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
badchoice
Member
Member # 35566
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, July 14th (Monday)

Nlove, what 20v1 and FF is true.

Also, I was an OC. My mother had an A with a MOM, and he walked away completely. I vowed to myself that I would never do that to my kids, and then I had an A and now my kids come from a family of D. I have not walked away, and I am extremely active in their lives, but still, it saddens me greatly.

During my As I did not think of what happens next. The selfishness involved with having an A is hard to understand and harder to explain.


Me: fWH/BH 46

Separated transitioning to D


Posts: 725 | Registered: May 2012 | From: L.A.
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, July 14th (Monday)

99lawdog99
At risk of making a giant stereotype this
So my question is why if she wasn't climaxing was she going there. wasn't she enjoying it or what?

is a very male thing to say. For the sake of arguement I'll assume she's not lying about climaxing. Sex and being wanted is a very powerful feeling. Many women do not climax every time, but generally it still feels good.

Looking back on my PA, AP was selfish at times too. I see those memories more negatively now, but at the time it was almost thrilling how free and open he was with me about his "carnal" needs. It was different than real life and therefore exciting. I know how ridiculous that sounds, but you're talking about people who are actually INSANE.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 2:02 PM, July 14th (Monday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, July 14th (Monday)

I am hoping another WS can help me understand this as my own WS doesn't seem to know, except to say he wasn't himself and he didn't know what to do. I began really suspecting something was going on with my H on Christmas Day. He had to leave the day after for his grandfather's funeral out of town, but I spoke to him and texted a lot, trying to get to the bottom of what was going on. He never confessed. So, when he returned 4 days later, I suggested he stay at his parents' house while we worked it out, never dreaming it would go that far. 3 days later, I asked him to come home, only to be told he wanted to make sure this didn't happen again. Still not knowing he was actually having an affair (since October), I did not know what 'this' meant. However, a week later, I found him at her house, where he admitted that sex had 'only happened a few times'. He then treated me like a stranger and left me standing in front of her house, crying and called me to meet him down the street to talk. I refused and he later returned to her house. He stayed between her house and his parents' house for the next 2 months. He called me the following weekend to see about getting the kids and told me he would not throw away 17 years for just sex. I immediately went to a lawyer. According to his mother 'he had made his choice'. Obviously, it was not me. Fast forward 2 months to our court date, he asked me if I wanted to work things out. I actually laughed. He was still with her. A week after court, he called me, crying. He said he was sorry and he threw away the best thing that ever happened to him and he would do anything to come home. I told him he needed to go to therapy (I started the week after I found out), which he has done. We are still separated, and I have no plans to reconcile until the new year, if at all. I know he has absolutely no contact with her, and wants none. He ended things with her, leaving her devastated, according to someone that does not know me or my H. He is being completely honest and open with me and, for the most part, sensitive to my needs. He has thanked me for making him go to therapy, as he is learning a lot about himself, and he wants to make it up to me by being the man and husband that I deserve. Since the phone call, he has never tried to blame me for the affair, always saying that I was a good wife and did everything right. But, I can not get past the idea that he chose HER that night. How could he leave me there crying if this is how he feels? I have not read any other stories where the WS initially chose the AP and did not fight for his M. Is this normal, or am I getting screwed over again?!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:41 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

I have not read any other stories where the WS initially chose the AP and did not fight for his M. Is this normal, or am I getting screwed over again?!

There are plenty of good people on this site who have gone through exactly what you describe. A good number of waywards take some time to get "out of the fog." I have read lots of those stories on SI over the last 8 months.

That wasn't my story, but I wanted to respond to ease your mind a bit. Hopefully someone will share their similar experiences.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
99lawdog99
Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Thanks Family, I guess it's just hard for me to understand. She is like so disgusted as to what she did, she claims it makes her physically sick to think about him and what she did with him. To me that is hard to understand how she can go from one extreme to the next. Thanks for the response.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 123 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 9:23 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Thank you Something! I appreciate all feedback! I am 6 months out and still struggling with all that he did. I don't want to be a victim anymore but I do hope I can work it out with him. Not sure how the 2 options an coexist. Like I said, we are both in IC and will do MC when I am ready. I am hoping I can get more answers there.


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

me that is hard to understand how she can go from one extreme to the next

Let me revise my previous response, I'm realizing the climax part has nothing to do with your real question. I think you're trying to figure out if she's lying about enjoying the sex, or if she's lying now about being disgusted with the sex. The truth is probably both. In the moment all of us WS got pleasure in some way shape or form or we wouldn't have done it. But in retrospect? Yeah, you're disgusted. The truth in AP's motivation and actions are so much clearer after the fact. The acts you did together which at the time seemed fun and daring are downright repulsive and make you feel cheap if you allow yourself to think about it too long. Picture waking up after your office Christmas party and hating the memories of what you said and did because you drank too much. But at the party you thought it was all completely appropriate and you were the coolest thing around. Now times that by 1 millon. That's how it feels when you think back on A sex


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
99lawdog99
Member
Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Thank you Family, that example did help me. I guess I never thought about it like that. You have opened my eyes quite a bit. The climax part is still hard for me to understand. I guess I'm looking at it from a man's point of view. I would find it strange to always be having sex and never climaxing, and that's what she is claiming. When we have sex, I always make sure she does. So who knows. You have helped me though. Thank you again. I really do appreciate your time and your honesty.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 123 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

99, I agree with familyfirst.

If you haven't done so already, have a read of the Ask the Womenz thread in general. There is a lot of discussion about sex and the importance of orgasms from the female perspective. You'll be surprised!


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Forged1
Member
Member # 43418
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)

I have a few questions. For the purpose of these questions, a 'lie' or 'lies' can be defined as an actual untruth, partial truth or deflecting a response to an inquiry from the AP as to the actual status of the relationship between the WS and the soon-to-be BS.

1 - What lies did you tell your AP about the state of your marriage?

2 - What lies did you tell yourself about your BS's character?

3 - Did you go out of your way to make your BS look like a bad person?

4 - Did the AP at any point before /emotional physical adultery commenced ask you if 1 - 3 above were actually true?

5 - If in R, and in the interests of full disclosure to your BS, have you provided the answers to 1 - 4 above to the betrayed partner?

Thanks.

Edited for typos etc.


[This message edited by Forged1 at 10:51 AM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Me: BH - 30s
Her: WW - 30s

Married - 2008
PA with boss for at least 5 months in 2013, possibly longer.
DDay - Feb 2014
Separated, heading to D
==================================
At this stage, I'm pretty much bulletproof.


Posts: 283 | Registered: May 2014 | From: USA
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:50 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)

1 - What lies did you tell your AP about the state of your marriage?

None. I told him we had a good marriage. It was HE who called bullshit and said no one cheats in a good marriage.

2 - What lies did you tell yourself about your BS's character?

None. My XH had excellent character at the time of my A, and I never thought otherwise.

3 - Did you go out of your way to make your BS look like a bad person?

No.

4 - Did the AP at any point before /emotional physical adultery commenced ask you if 1 - 3 above were actually true?

Yes; see my answer to #1. He just couldn't believe that there was nothing wrong with the M.

5 - If in R, and in the interests of full disclosure to your BS, have you provided the answers to 1 - 4 above to the betrayed partner?

Yes. He knows all of that.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 9:18 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Did it surprise you to find out how hurt your BS was when they learned about your affair?

Were you expecting they would be less affected by it than they were ?

If you did expect less, why ?

[This message edited by tfkeel at 9:20 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 460 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 10:09 PM, July 15th (Tuesday)

Did it surprise you to find out how hurt your BS was when they learned about your affair?

Oh yes.

Were you expecting they would be less affected by it than they were ?

I expected him to be angry and to divorce me based on that anger. Like a pride thing. I was shocked at how sad/hurt/devastated he was.

If you did expect less, why ?

My XH is very non-emotive, non-communicative, etc. Up until D-day, I'd only ever seen him cry twice---when he found his dog dead in the road and then when his dad died. He very rarely expresses any kind of negative emotion; in fact, I'd say he represses them. Goes out of his way to do so, even. He doesn't perceive showing emotions as weak; simply that it's useless. Getting all upset/stressed/sad/emotional etc. doesn't change the situation, so why bother? is his perspective.

So because of that, to see him fall apart on D-day, was a real shock to me. Again, of course I expected him to be angry...furious even. I would be were I in those shoes. I just didn't expect the level of sadness, I guess.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 12:55 AM, July 16th (Wednesday)

1 - What lies did you tell your AP about the state of your marriage?

We didn't discuss my marriage an awful lot. I said I was unhappy in my marriage, which was untrue. I was unhappy with myself.

2 - What lies did you tell yourself about your BS's character?

My marriage was very toxic but I definitely demonised my H.

3 - Did you go out of your way to make your BS look like a bad person?

No.

4 - Did the AP at any point before /emotional physical adultery commenced ask you if 1 - 3 above were actually true?

No.

5 - If in R, and in the interests of full disclosure to your BS, have you provided the answers to 1 - 4 above to the betrayed partner?

He knows everything so yes.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:04 AM, July 16th (Wednesday)

Did it surprise you to find out how hurt your BS was when they learned about your affair?

Yes, I was very surprised.

Were you expecting they would be less affected by it than they were?

Yes. I knew he would be angry but I didn't expect it to cause him the trauma that it has.

If you did expect less, why?

Several reasons.

First, much like heartbroken's husband, my husband never shows emotion about anything much, especially negative stuff. He represses things like that.

Second, because of the above it was very easy to tell myself he didn't care and didn't love me.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
lostcovenants
Member
Member # 40637
Default  Posted: 2:37 AM, July 16th (Wednesday)

Thank you all for answering questions.

My H says that he hardly ever thinks about his LTA now. My DDay is just one year ago. I think about it constantly. I stuff down sadness and resentment and horror until I can't stuff any more and then bring it up. He said the other night that he realizes that a load (guilt) was taken off his shoulders and placed on mine (devastation). My question is how can he not think about it knowing that it still consumes me - still no time line from him - but more promises to do it. He mostly acts like he fine as his load is gone. How can he not hurt at least as much as I do?


BS 60; fWH 59; 2 children, 1 grandchild; Married 37+ years, he is my only; D-day 7/8/13; Married OW, PA 2009-2011; sexting with same MOW 2012-2013. Broke it off about a week before I found out.

Update-Sexting on cheating forums 14 YEARS. Idiot me


Posts: 162 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: USA
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 6:06 AM, July 16th (Wednesday)

how can he not think about it knowing that it still consumes me - still no time line from him - but more promises to do it. He mostly acts like he fine as his load is gone. How can he not hurt at least as much as I do?

Because for him it is over...at least he wants it to be. He wants to rug sweep. It sounds like he has not done the work on himself to figure out the issues that him to have an A in the first place?

Don't bottle up your feelings. Talk about them with him. Make sure he understands how this has made you feel. It will help him be more empathetic. What is he doing to work on himself? Is he in IC? What is he doing to demonstrate remorse to you?

It's more than just giving you the load to bear. It sounds to me like there is a lot more work that needs to be done, starting with the timeline.

If he isn't hurting, he hasn't processed what he has done to you or himself. He doesn't get it yet.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 693 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
nlovemyfamily
Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, July 16th (Wednesday)

Thanks so much FWS for your responses to our questions. I hope you know how much it means to read your understanding after having hindsight!
Just wondering if you can express what you learned about the pain your children young and adult went thru and how they were impacted by your betrayals.
Having a hard time understanding the detachment to family while in A and even after D while still with AP.
How can someone err on the side of AP relationship instead of giving your children of 30+ years the benefit of the doubt? My XH is standing stron protecting his relationship with his AP at the expense of any relationship with his grown kids who are now at an age of marrying and giving us grandchildren!
Can't comprehend !!! Maybe you can explain the thought process!!

Posts: 420 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)

Can someone help me out with this one? How can my WH tell me I am his first and only choice when he initially chose her on DDay and didn't come back to fight for me and our marriage for 2 months? Is it possible that he feels this way, or is it more likely that things were to difficult with her?


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)

nlovemyfamily
I don't think anything a WS can say will make your situation make sense. Your XH is a jerk. He has decided to put all his eggs in his new AP's basket and nothing you can say or do will ever change that. I predict that will not go well for him in the end. I wish you peace to move past this horrible situation. He does not deserve anymore of your brain power. I also hope for the sake of your children/grandchildren they know they can have a relationship with their father with your blessing no matter who he's involved with.

Hopeful74

Is it possible that he feels this way, or is it more likely that things were to difficult with her?

I didn't leave my H for AP, so I can't speak from first hand experience. But I did the mental math on what a permanent relationship would be like with AP and discovered I'd be trading 1 set of problems for a different set minus half of the time with my kids. Plus I still had love for my H and realized we had a good chance of making things work if I put forth the effort. Clearly not the most noble way to *choose* my M, but once back it's now my chance to improve the M and my relationship with my H or not. I'd look more at the type of work your WH is doing now as a judge of his devotion. Is he just biding his time until another AP comes along or is he in full remorse willing to tackle the big problems?

[This message edited by familyfirst at 1:07 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
steppingup
Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)

I'm having a hard time getting into my WW's head about the last affair she had. She said she didn't intend to fall in love and that this new AP made her feel amazing. I am not looking to R at this stage and am planning my next move but for my peace of mind I want to know, better still I want to understand if I can what the process is when a WS thinks about, and begins an affair when there IS a good spouse at home in the dark. What kinds of things did you think about? How did you conceal it? How did you justify it to yourself? Where you not concerned of sharing an STD or other illness? If you had a spiritual life, what happend to that during the affair? When (if at all) did the fog break and what broke it. Thanks Stepping up.


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 416 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)

How can my WH tell me I am his first and only choice when he initially chose her on DDay

I too left was ready to leave my BH for my AP on DDay. Not because BH wasn't my first choice, but because I somehow felt leaving was the only choice. I felt once he knew our M was over. I had spent a lot if time convincing myself that my BH was a terrible guy to justify my A. I was absolutely convinced that he did not love me and there would be a sense of relief that he would have a reason to let me go.

I was honestly shocked at how hurt he was. I knew he would be angry and I didn't want any part of that so I kind of mentally blocked his pain. Like a child sticking their fingers in their ears chanting "lalalalala". I really thought I knew what was right. That is how messed up my thought process was at the time.

I'm not sure if any of that applies to your situation or how your WH was thinking but I hope it helps.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 693 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
WalkinOnEggshelz
Member
Member # 29447
Default  Posted: 5:32 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)

I want to understand if I can what the process is when a WS thinks about, and begins an affair when there IS a good spouse at home in the dark.

I had no idea that I was vulnerable to an A. I have said so times that if you asked me just hours before it all started if I would ever cheat on my BH, I would have said you were crazy. The attention that the AP provided me, the ego kibbles was it's intoxicating at that time. I apparently "still had it" and that was awesome. I had stopped hearing any compliments that my husband gave me long ago and the ones that did slip by, I felt he had to give due to the responsibility of being my husband. Not because he actually believed them or wanted to give them.

For example, I was actually insulted by the fact that my husband had told me that I was the best thing that ever happened to him. Seems like a compliment, right? I took it as I was required to take care of him and be the glue that holds him together.

I would twist his words and build resentments. The AP would lavish me with compliments. Since that validation bucket has no bottom, I couldn't get enough. Until I realized that it was more than just a friendship. I had to continue to convince myself that my husband was a bad guy. That he really didn't love me. And it just slides downhill from there.

It's really all about perspective. Just months after DDay we were packing up to move. I came across a card that had beautiful sentiments from my husband. He even wrote a little something himself. It was very sweet. At the time I got that card from him, I couldn't appreciate what it's contents were. The noise in my head was too loud. I couldn't hear what my husband had to say.

I still have that card. Because after reading it with new perspective I couldn't bear to throw it away.

I'm sorry your WW hasn't come around. Believe me when I say that the lenses she looks through need a deep cleaning. It's her perspective that has gone askew.


Me: WS 42
Him: BH 43(HoldingTogether)
M: 18years, together 22
2 Daughters: 13 and 10
D Day: 7/24/2010; TT to 10/17/10
If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

Posts: 693 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: Texas
steppingup
Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, July 16th (Wednesday)

Believe me when I say that the lenses she looks through need a deep cleaning. It's her perspective that has gone askew.

Thanks for the comments EggShells. She says the same, that she cannot see clearly through the fog and that the way he makes her feel she is intoxicated ( ) sorry, to even type that much less say it or think it is hard...

but that is where we are at, and this AP, is not concerned at bit about destroying our family and the pain and discomfort that the little children will go through much less other family members, parents, sisters, etc.

Sigh - its amazing how the brain works and how the chemistry of the brain can make someone go into, insanity?


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 416 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
lbuzz
Member
Member # 43164
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, July 17th (Thursday)

Hi. My question is about deceit. I caught onto my husband's affair on April 12, and then he went deeper and deeper underground with it as I would stumble onto things. He eventually had a second phone and was texting her mostly, although there were some calls and she also came to his work when it was ending on some days.

I am having a hard time fathoming all of this deceit and I feel particularly sick about it today. He would lie so easily, and I'm so used to trusting him that I had a hard time believing my own eyes at times. I also was repeatedly telling him that what bothered me was the lying more than anything, and for at least three months, that was my life. I think the lying is done, but I'm not feeling that trustworthy.

So in any case, I'm wondering how waywards justify this lying, especially after the initial discovery and when a lie has been uncovered. I'm also wondering what they did to change from someone who could tell lies so easily to someone who could be trusted. Just anything you could tell me about the lying aspect of things would be incredibly helpful.


Posts: 53 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: CA
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 10:05 PM, July 17th (Thursday)

Ouch. Your question takes me back, lbuzz, to the weeks following DDay. BH asked me if I met AP at a certain hotel, and I said no. Repeatedly. This was several weeks after DDay, it was pretty clear we were in R, I was here on SI, and yet I looked BH in the eye and lied.

How does one explain something like that? There''s just no satisfactory explanation.

One day, IDK, something snapped and I told him the truth. I handed over my burner phone, which he never remotely suspected I owned.

Wish I had some brilliant answer that wrapped it all up with a neat little bow for you. I justified my lies because I was afraid, I suppose, that the whole truth would hurt him unnecessarily. Or I was simply covering my ass. And have I become a person who can be trusted? Only 15 months out, I have no expectation of being trusted. It''s not high on my priority list.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, July 18th (Friday)

To add a little bit to 20Wrongs --

I also remember that lies didn't effect me in the slightest. I was so compartmentalized and so far in denial, that nothing I said really meant anything. Truth, lies, whatever was easiest. It also leached into the rest of my life, too.

today, I try not to lie, even those "little polite lies" that people do all the time. I hate all of those things that I used to do.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 1:53 AM, July 19th (Saturday)

Sorry if these have been asked, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this one:

1. During the affair, were any days considered off limits, or nonaffair days, like holidays, anniversaries, birthdays, etc?

2. if no, were you conscious of the days during and did that change guilt or anything?

I guess I just feel extra betrayed and don't understand why there wasn't a "sorry, this is my kid's birthday, no sex today."


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:55 PM, July 19th (Saturday)

Lark, my AP was pushy and demanding when she wasn't getting the sex she wanted from me. I just made excuses why I couldn't have sex with her on my wife's birthday, for example. She would then accuse me of "saving it up" for my wife. AP just wanted it all, and would emotionally punish me if I didn't give it to her.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 2:17 AM, July 20th (Sunday)

Hello. Me again. Thank you so much for this forum. I find it to be the most helpful with seeing into the mind of what goes on during an affair. While nothing justifies what my estranged WH did, it does help me to realize where he was during that time. We are 6 months out from DDay. He did not apologize or fight for me that night, which I took as his decision to stay with her. And he did for 2 months after. He then came to his senses and made a clean break and has not had any contact with her since. He has been completely honest and transparent and really wants to reconcile and be the man he says I deserve. But he is having a hard time answering my questions about his feelings during that time. He says what he can tell me is hindsight and he doesn't know his exact feelings at the time. That he was an idiot and that was the biggest mistake of his life. He told me that he did tell her he loved her but he did not mean it, which is hard for me to comprehend. When I bring up the topic if his 'feelings' for her, he tells me that it wasn't as big as I make it out to be. That yes, what he did was huge. He does not discount that, but that his relationship with her was not how I think it was and that it was toxic. My WH is not a man to be controlled, but she did. I feel he gave her control over him, as well as our marriage. Control that I, as his wife, never asked for. How can his relationship not be as much as I make it out to be when he jeapordized everything to be with her and initially chose to stay with her?


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
sarahstar
Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, July 20th (Sunday)

Question: How can you still love your wife but get aroused and enjoy sex with another woman? Is it 'just sex' thing for men? Is it that easy? My husband said it was just sex with the prostitute but he still kissed her boobs.
As a female, it would feel wrong to have sex with another man without having feelings involved.
How can you not think about your betrayed spouse whilst you are having sex with someone else?
After talking to my WH, I get the feeling he was more aroused with the prostitute than what he gets with me.
Also, I know I have been asking my WH lots of questions and its been 6wks now and yesterday he got angry and walked off saying he was over it. How much is too much to ask? Im not asking or talking about it everyday and I am really trying not to talk about it.

[This message edited by sarahstar at 8:28 PM, July 20th (Sunday)]


Posts: 91 | Registered: Jun 2014
kickintheface
Member
Member # 34350
Default  Posted: 11:02 PM, July 20th (Sunday)

QUESTIONS - My WW has done very little to change anything about himself since the A. He wasn't a horrible person by any means, but I now see him as a completely different person. Why would he not be making improvements to try to draw me back to him? It's been 4 years, he is still the same physically and has also not opened up emotionally. Again, not a bad guy but doesn't seem to be putting in any real work. I feel like I have had to make adjustments and have had to learn how to live with the person who ripped my heart out. Why wouldn't he make the effort to step out of his comfort zone and do the things I need, like opening up emotionally.

Also, we have talked about the affair numerous times and he has apologized, but he has never cried and to me that would be showing me that he is opening up completely. He did cry recently but not because of the affair..he cried because I wouldn't have sex with him. (first time he has ever cried in our 13 years together). He is a very affectionate person, I am not (anymore). I need the emotional, he needs the physical. Our love languages are completely different. I know he loves me (in his way) but it's just not enough anymore.

And...after your spouse found out about the affair, how did you view her when you would have sex? Did you see her as weak because she allowed sex after all the pain that was caused? Did you feel powerful because she was trying to please you? OR would you rather she stand up for herself and deny sex to preserve her self worth and not feel degraded?

Sorry that was long! I can't get the answers out of him, maybe you guys can give me some insight.


BS-Me (37), WS-Him (36) M-12 yrs
2 innocent children
EA OW-ex fiance/Mother of his OC that is 12, just found this out.
The hardest part about walking away from someone is when you realize that no matter how slow you go, they will never run after you.

Posts: 103 | Registered: Dec 2011
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 11:44 PM, July 20th (Sunday)

Busy weekend in here.

Lark

1. Nope. I sent BH off to a golf tournament for (not exactly on, but close to) his birthday so I could meet AP at a hotel. I was only interested in feeding my own selfish needs at that time.
2. I never felt guilty, about anything, before or during the affair, because my wires were disconnected.

Lark, you cannot wrap your head around it because her choices were completely crazy and f''ed up.

Hopeful74, it''s not an excuse, but honestly I feel my behavior during the A''s was temporary insanity. I acted in many ways that were completely out of character. I''m sorry your WH is minimizing his "relationship" with OW. It is hard, once we stop out of bullshit fantasyland, to put ourselves back into the crazy, but I guarantee he can remember. He just doesn''t want to. Maybe to *protect you,* or simply just to cover his ass.

sarahstar, I''m not a man, so I guess I cannot comment on that part of your question. But, if he''s getting angry and shutting down when you ask him questions, that is a huge red flag. My concern is that he''s still hiding something major. Why are you trying not to talk about it? So he won''t get angry? Umm, no. Don''t back down. He is the guilty party here, and should be bending over backwards to help you feel safe. Please don''t let him sweep this under the rug, or I fear it''ll happen again.

kick, you asked a lot of questions that I can''t answer, in part I think because of the male/female dynamic. More importantly though, you can''t get answers out of him? He''s done very little to change since DDay? He''s not putting in the work? You say "it''s just not enough anymore," and I''m inclined to agree. Not sure I can provide any insight. I think you''ve already answered your own question. Trust your gut.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, July 21st (Monday)

Lark
Picture A-land as an entirely different world. In that world your BS's bday does not exist. So if/when you are with AP on a special day, it's not like you are thinking "ha-ha I'm doing this on BS's bday" you just aren't thinking of BS at all. The times I did feel extra guilt was during 'transitions', like when I was driving home after seeing AP. In those instances the worlds collide in your head. But I would quickly push those thoughts out of my mind, for mental survival's sake.

Hopeful74

but that his relationship with her was not how I think it was and that it was toxic

You have an impression on what it should mean when your H tells you he loves you, and I'm guessing you think if he tells someone else the same thing it should mean the same thing. That's a reasonable assumption, but I understand what your H is saying when he says you are not understanding correctly. I had very strong feelings when in my A, and it was hard to put a name on them. Love is the best one we have but infatuation/obsession/addiction is much more accurate. Once you kick the habit, you can see that it's not love, even though that's the word you used at the time. At least for me

kickintheface

Everything 20Ws said. All I can add is that IMO using sex as a reward or punishment for other issues on the relationship is what causes couples to become distant (speaking from first hand experience there too). But if all your WH does is take, and isn't giving you what you need, something needs to change.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 11:25 AM, July 21st (Monday)

Thank you for answering all. I feel like I'm trying to understanding something that really isn't rational anyway.

Lark
Picture A-land as an entirely different world. In that world your BS's bday does not exist. So if/when you are with AP on a special day, it's not like you are thinking "ha-ha I'm doing this on BS's bday" you just aren't thinking of BS at all. The times I did feel extra guilt was during 'transitions', like when I was driving home after seeing AP. In those instances the worlds collide in your head. But I would quickly push those thoughts out of my mind, for mental survival's sake.

Yes, my WH said the same thing, that he would have moments driving home where he'd be consumed with guilt and would scream at himself he had to stop.

I told him it sucked he couldn't have those thoughts on the way to. But I guess on the way home makes more sense given what you said. And once home, he'd be already transitioned and would just start texting again.


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
BecomingMe
New Member
Member # 44183
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, July 21st (Monday)

Lark, hopefully I can still answer. Yes, my OM and I tried to be respectful in some ways. We avoided sex on spouses's birthdays and anniversaries. His BW's birthday is the anniversary of the day we met, but we still avoided sex on that day.

I never had sex with OM and my husband on the same day, usually not even within a few days.

I also tried to be respectful when OM had to talk to his family. Sometimes we traveled together, and I would either go into a different room or we would take turns making the calls in the lobby when we needed to phone home.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jul 2014
sarahstar
Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, July 21st (Monday)

20WrongsVs1, thanks. I am trying not to talk about it for me as well as for him. We have talked about it all a lot and I want to move on from the rotten thing he did. But I also don't want to talk about it too much because there is nothing worse than a broken record of someone going on and on about something.

Posts: 91 | Registered: Jun 2014
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, July 21st (Monday)

kick, your WH does need to step out of his comfort zone. What cemented my BW to decide to separate was that I wasn't doing enough of the things to help her feel safe, to feel emotionally supported, to feel truly cared for. I did the things that I could easily do, but those by themselves were not sufficiently comprehensive to help her heal. And, yes, our love languages are quite different--I'm touch and she's quality time & words. I didn't reach out to her enough on her terms.

I think the first time my BW and I had sex after d-day, I was truly surprised that she wanted me at all, if ever again. It honestly didn't cross my mind about her feeling degraded or a doormat, or needing to please me--the "pick me dance", or "reclaim" me from my AP. I was just a big, dumb lunk happy to be having unexpected sex with my wife. As I started reading on SI and in books, I learned about hysterical bonding. As time went along and she moved out of that phase, we had a lot less sex. She would initiate most of it mainly because I was reluctant to push it out of respect for her feelings. What I found out later is that because I wasn't asking for sex, it left my BW feeling ugly, unwanted, and inferior to my AP, which is the exact opposite of how I felt about her.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 7:10 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

If you had a long term affair. Why did you maintain the affair and lies for so long, and not just divorce your spouse?


If you carried on the affair in the marital home, why did you do that?


If you took your AP to your spouses bed, why would you do that to your spouse?

Thank you


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
tfkeel
Member
Member # 19517
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

And, if you involved your BS's children, was it because you thoroughly planned to leave and create a "new life" ?

Posts: 460 | Registered: May 2008 | From: Pennsylvania
kickintheface
Member
Member # 34350
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

ThatGuyNoMore....you nailed it! That is exactly my husbands mentality about all this...and it frustrates me. Again, he wasn't/isn't a horrible person by any means...but I want him to want to be more. Does that make sense? I don't want to think of him of the bad guy anymore and as long as he stays the same, I'm afraid I will always see him that way. I just want him to grow from this, to become motivated to better himself and our family but he does exactly as you said...he maintains. No better, no worse. I have no concerns whatsoever that he is unfaithful in anyway but I do feel he is cheating himself.

Thanks everyone for your replies.


BS-Me (37), WS-Him (36) M-12 yrs
2 innocent children
EA OW-ex fiance/Mother of his OC that is 12, just found this out.
The hardest part about walking away from someone is when you realize that no matter how slow you go, they will never run after you.

Posts: 103 | Registered: Dec 2011
BecomingMe
New Member
Member # 44183
Default  Posted: 8:44 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

BrokenheartedWif
I had a LTA. It started during years that my husband was working overseas. I thought I could end it when he came home, but I had already fallen for OM. I saw myself in a polyamorous relationship, and OM convinced me it could last forever. I loved my H and didn't want to leave him. But I didn't know how to let go of OM. The lies and the double-life was hard every single day.

We had the A in my home because my H wasn't living there most of the time.

We did go to OM's house a few times, mostly out of necessity. I didn't go there to hurt his BW. I just liked to see where he lived. And I liked to feel a part of his "real" world.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jul 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

Lark --

During the affair, were any days considered off limits, or nonaffair days, like holidays, anniversaries, birthdays, etc?

Everyone is different. For me, I think that when I was with my family, that I didn't talk to AP. I mean things like Christmas and vacations. When we all went to a football game together, or were at the inlaws pool, then all bets were off.

For me, not contacting the AP during family time was a way I justified the A in my mind. I was doing it "on my time" and not taking anything from BW or my family. Just another example of the screwed up thinking in a wayward brain.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

kickintheface --

And...after your spouse found out about the affair, how did you view her when you would have sex? Did you see her as weak because she allowed sex after all the pain that was caused? Did you feel powerful because she was trying to please you? OR would you rather she stand up for herself and deny sex to preserve her self worth and not feel degraded?

None of these. I feel lucky that she will expose herself (emotionally and physically) to me after I hurt her. I feel ashamed of myself for downgrading sex to far less than sharing with my BW.

I sure don't feel like a stud, like she is trying to do anything to keep me. I don't think that she's weak. Going through this requires more strength than I ever thought that she had.

I hope BW doesn't feel degraded when we have sex. I think we have sex when we feel close, and it helps reestablish trust and normalcy and intimacy in our relationship.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 9:47 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

Becoming Me.

We had the A in my home because my H wasn't living there most of the time.

Did you ever think about how your husband would feel that you did that in his house and bed?

We did go to OM's house a few times, mostly out of necessity. I didn't go there to hurt his BW. I just liked to see where he lived. And I liked to feel a part of his "real" world.
Did you asked to be done in her bed or did he just take you to her bed?


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

I had LTA's. I never wanted to leave my M. I thought about it sometimes, but it was never really an option. I did love my BW, but somehow convinced myself that I needed more, and that it was OK for me to have an A. It was never about my feelings for my BW.

I know this is hard to understand, but I swear it was true for me and for lots of people here. For me, it wasn't about leaving my old life. In my mind, I had my regular life, and this separate A life. And I told myself that so long as I kept them separate, both were OK.

As for the A in the home, the marital bed, etc., those are all such tiny steps compared to the A in general. Once I decided it was OK to have sex with someone else, nothing else was taboo. I convinced myself that my A was OK. Having sex in my bed, or hers, was barely a thought on that path.

By the way, I don't mean to be casual or flippant about that stuff. Writing it now just sickens me. I understand the extra betrayal and pain that having sex in the same bed as BW and I did caused. I am just saying that it didn't matter at that time.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

Thank you Somethingremorse

Using my home and eventually my bed, is so painful.

I think that he must have hated me on some level to show that much disrespect for my by letting me sleep in the same sheets he f**ked the AP in.

BS claims after years of being in other places in my house, she requested to be f**ked in my bed.

She pretended to be a friend for many years and my spouse pretended to be a friend of her BH, so our families were very intertwined.



He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
BecomingMe
New Member
Member # 44183
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

BrokenheartedWif

Sure, I thought of my husband. I knew it was wrong and felt very guilty that it would hurt him. But it just felt like a matter of logistics. And I had a polyamorous relationship in my mind. My AP was my "normal". When we met, my H had never even physically lived in the place I was living, so it was more of my place with AP. When my H came home, I felt like I was cheating on AP with my H!

As for his place, it was both. I asked to go, because I wanted to be included in his world. And he invited me there several other times.

I think the key is to know that it likely wasn't with any malicious intent toward the BS by either party. It was selfish and thoughtless, yes.


Posts: 18 | Registered: Jul 2014
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

BrokenheartedWif
BS claims after years of being in other places in my house, she requested to be f**ked in my bed

I can buy this. Every boundary you cross is a new thrill. Just like the first inappropriate comment gets your heart racing. But after a while talk alone is not enough, you want to touch. I can believe after years of being in the guest room the master bedroom represented a final frontier that was thrilling to cross. And with most crossed boundaries there is an initiator and the one who follows. I would suspect your BW's story is correct that AP initiated the idea to be in your bed. My AP was the one who wanted to go to a PA first, however since I didn't say no, I get to share full credit. So your WH is still guilty, but I doubt very much H was in your bed out of hatered towards you. Somethingremorse represents a male point of view well that this was small potatoes compared to the overall A. This is the type of detail women would care a lot more about.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 1:22 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

Thanks Family First.

The double betrayal is very difficult. Especially since the False Friend AP wanted to take my place and my life. She is still in contact with my oldest daughter, and won't leave our lives. She claims she's my kids Aunt. She's still in the fog, blaming myself and her BH for her and my WH f**king each other.


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 11:32 PM, July 22nd (Tuesday)

Good evening everyone!!! I am curious. I am the definition of insanity right now and my WH seems to be losing patience with me and my moods I can't say that I blame him much since I have been a bit manic for about 4 months, since the night he called me crying about how he didn't know what to do and he threw away the best thing that ever happened to him. He was very honest in answering my questions, including the fact that they never used protection (guess his vasectomy really paid off). But I have been so angry lately that he says we need to discuss it in MC, which I am not ready for yet. We are separated and each in IC. My question is this, for those of you committed to rebuilding, what was your cutoff point for your BS anger? When was enough enough? I don't want to be this bitter person that is defined by what he did, but I am still so angry. He seems patient with me when I am sad or accomadating, but becomes confrontational when I get angry. Is that a bad sign, or am I starting to be unreasonable? He keeps telling me he won't give up on us, but I feel like he might be. Being that we are separated, I feel like we should only communicate about the children, but am having an extremely hard time doing that. Should I give up at this point? I told him I needed a year for us to focus on ourselves and we are 6 months out. I just do not know how to relate to him on this level and would welcome any feedback. I have never been this needy before and I am not loving it. Thanks!!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, July 23rd (Wednesday)

Hopeful74 is your WH in IC? I find it extremely hard to deal with my BH's anger but IC has really helped me and I am learning not to become defensive and try to just ride it out. If he really wants to R he will have to find a way to handle it. It is not easy but I think this is what WSs have to deal with after an A. For how long I don't know, but I'm not expecting this to end any time soon...6 months is really not a long time IMO.


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2014
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, July 23rd (Wednesday)

Thanks for responding lostcat! My H is currently in IC and it seems to have helped some. In the beginning he would let me go on and on, but now does not want to talk about it when he is tired or had a bad day, which I can understand I guess. I just feel like there should be more of an effort, but not sure if I am being unreasonable at this point. I am not even sure yet if we can work it out, so maybe my demands are too soon?


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)

I won''t try to quote on my darn phone. But your WH reacting with anger and defensiveness to youranger is a big red flag. sure, it''s a natural and understandable humaan reaction, to respond to anger with anger. But in return for the gift of R your WH needs to figure out how to validate your pain and anger. Shouting back at you? Umm, no. I would not tolerate that if I were you.

This is a time when you as the BS can be assertive and lay out your demands for R.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
sarahstar
Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)

Question:
Can a WS particularly a WH truly be remorseful and faithful again after a betrayal? Or do they get better at hiding it? I have seen many multiple ddays on posts that I wonder if it can finally hit the WH to the realisation that they don't want to betray their spouse again.

[This message edited by sarahstar at 9:04 PM, July 23rd (Wednesday)]


Posts: 91 | Registered: Jun 2014
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 3:22 AM, July 24th (Thursday)

I'm a WW not WH but for me the answer is yes, totally. I feel only remorse now and never ever want to go back down that road of being unfaithful. But I have been going to IC and working on the broken things in me that led me to do this. Also I recognise the red flags the led up to my A and know what I would do differently in each case.

However, it did take some time for me to get to this stage and unfortunately the thing that really woke me up was separation from BH. We are now R and I feel like I am a different person.

Is your WH in IC? Does he want to work on himself?


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2014
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, July 24th (Thursday)

Can a WS particularly a WH truly be remorseful and faithful again after a betrayal? Or do they get better at hiding it?
Gee sarahstar, if I wasn't remorseful, hadn't worked damn hard on bettering myself as a human being or hadn't developed empathy, I might be highly offended by this question.

Speaking for myself I have no thoughts or intention of ever cheating again. I just don't hate myself enough to do it again.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, July 24th (Thursday)

Sarahstar--

I am remorseful. I never want to cause any person the pain I have. Thatis especially true for BWand my family.

I realize how miserable I was then. I feel like my life has so much more purpose today. I never ever want to be the person I was leading up to and during my A. I do not want to live that broken ever again

If my motivation was simply " not cheating" without realizing how awful I was, then I couldn't tell you for sure that Id stop forever. In fact the opposite is true. I tried to break off As. But since I didn't admit how messed up I really was, I would always fall back into the same behaviors. It took fixing me to stop.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, July 24th (Thursday)

I really appreciate all of the WWs coming on here and answering our questions. It gives me some insight into what my WH may have been feeling. I was just wondering, how long did it take you to really look into yourself and see what you were and what led up to what you did? My husband is in IC, but has not really had a breakthrough as to what was going on. He can't even tell me his thoughts during the actual affair, just that it wasn't good. All he can tell me is hindsight. We are 9 months out from the start of the A, 6 months out from DDay, and 4 months out from when he came out of his 'fog' and left left the OW and called me, wanting to make things right and come home (we are still separated). He seems very remorseful and does not lay any of the blame for his A on me. I am just wondering how long it takes to get revelations about what happened. Thanks again!!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, July 24th (Thursday)

I don't think I had revelations as such. It's more like an onion - I feel like I'm gradually unpeeling the layers of understanding why I did it, what I need to fix in myself and with each layer I have more and more empathy for BH and more and more remorse. Also more and more regret for the life I threw away.


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2014
SadieMae
Member
Member # 42986
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, July 24th (Thursday)

My WH's affair was long distance, they never met in person. He is also a sex addict.

Everyone tells me this had nothing to do with me, but there were some things that are hard to accept. And this goes back to "our" bed. I found texts between them where she told him that she wanted him on that bed. (our bed) he replied and told her he thought it would be so filthy and so hot to F her on our bed. He even said "our".

I guess my question is, what makes that hot? Did anyone else get an extra rush from abusing the marriage bed?

[This message edited by SadieMae at 3:04 PM, July 24th (Thursday)]


Me: BW 40
Him: SAWH 40
Together half our lives.

Posts: 78 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: North Carolina
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, July 24th (Thursday)

Thanks lostcat! That is encouraging! My husband is taking the steps, but I am concerned that he can not tell me his thought and feelings at the time. But he was in so deep with her tht he did not try to save our M the night of DDay. In fact, he chose to leave when I kicked him out the week before because I knew something was going on and he would not confess to me. Is it normal for him to not be able to recall his feelings, or is it just a tactic?


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 3:33 PM, July 24th (Thursday)

Honestly, I would have a hard time answering this question. When I look back on it there are so many feelings and thoughts I was having and a lot of then were very conflicting. For example I'd feel really excited about the A but also really stressed. Everything was compartmentalised so I really could have different thoughts and feelings about the A and about my home life. And I had a lot of thoughts and feelings about each. When I look back on it now, I really feel like I was actually crazy during that time. I know I wasn't, but that's how it feels now.

However, at the beginning of R I often wouldn't want to tell BH everything as I was afraid of hurting him more or getting into a worse situation. So your WH could also be doing this.


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2014
Macsecond
Member
Member # 43972
Default  Posted: 4:33 PM, July 24th (Thursday)

Honestly, I would have a hard time answering this question. When I look back on it there are so many feelings and thoughts I was having and a lot of then were very conflicting. For example I'd feel really excited about the A but also really stressed. Everything was compartmentalised so I really could have different thoughts and feelings about the A and about my home life. And I had a lot of thoughts and feelings about each. When I look back on it now, I really feel like I was actually crazy during that time. I know I wasn't, but that's how it feels now.
However, at the beginning of R I often wouldn't want to tell BH everything as I was afraid of hurting him more or getting into a worse situation. So your WH could also be doing this.

I'd echo this. I too had mixed feelings during, and while I was driven by the lust and excitement, I also knew and felt what I was doing was wrong. I just didn't have the strength to put the brakes on until I did.

Explaining how I felt is difficult because at this point it doesn't even make sense to me now that I'm not in it why I made the choices I did, how I could let myself do that. Now that I'm out and don't ever want to go back there again under any circumstances, I have a hard time connecting with the feelings I was experiencing during the A. It almost doesn't seem real to me. Perhaps that's part of me wishing I hadn't done it. There's a lot of embarrassment and regret there too, as well as not wanting to hurt my BH (with admitting feelings I had early on in the A that I know aren't real now and that I definitely don't feel now, and fear that he may think I still feel that way now).


Me - WW (38)
Him - BH (36)
Married almost 14 years.
2 kids
DDay - July 4, 2014 (I confessed to 5 month OEA)
In IC and MC, working on R.

Posts: 156 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 4:39 PM, July 24th (Thursday)

I had a question on gifts.

If you gave or received gifts that were very visible, was there an intention of using it as a "marker" of your A, or against a visible, subtle tactic against the BS?


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
sarahstar
Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, July 24th (Thursday)

thankyou Lostcat, Slowuptake & somethingremorse for answering my question.
It gives me hope.

Posts: 91 | Registered: Jun 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, July 25th (Friday)

I am just wondering how long it takes to get revelations about what happened.

I don't think that there is a "typical" timeline. It's most important that he's putting in the work, and that YOU see him putting in the work. If he sincerely tries, I think answers will come.

For me, I knew about my depression for years before I finally went to the doctors. So I had a head start on some of my crap. But with my behavior during the A, the first three months or so didn't yield a lot. It was almost like training to learn how to talk to the C, and how to think about their questions. It was probably 4 months out before I did anything that my BW thought of as revelation.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 8:32 AM, July 25th (Friday)

Hopeful74, quoting Macsecond:

There's a lot of embarrassment and regret there too, as well as not wanting to hurt my BH (with admitting feelings I had early on in the A that I know aren't real now and that I definitely don't feel now, and fear that he may think I still feel that way now).

I didn't really understand my feelings. I suspect many waywards have trouble with this. We often have just two feelings: happy and angry. We may confuse love with happy. We are often co-dependent, receiving our emotional cues from the others around us rather than owning our own feelings.

What I know now that the fog of the A has lifted: I didn't really love my LTA AP, though I said it thousands of times over the years. What I loved was the happy place of the bubble. I wanted to keep that a happy place. I didn't want conflict. I just wanted to get what I wanted, when I wanted it, however I wanted it. That's not love. That's selfishness. My AP gave me what I wanted. That too is not love. That's enablement. It was completely unhealthy. It looks good inside the bubble, but when those expectations aren't met in the real world, you get angry and bitter that your entitlements aren't being met by your BS, your family, your job, and the rest of the world. Affairs just mess up everything else in your life, no matter how much you think you compartmentalize things.

My BW is afraid I want to go back to the bubble. To her, it sounds pretty nice. I tell her I never, ever want to go back there. It's a trap. It's the One Ring of Sauron--it gives the bearer feelings of power but ruins him.

My BW asks whether I miss my AP, whether I have any unresolved feelings for her. No freakin' way. If I had any kind feelings towards her, they were summarily erased by her bad behavior after DDay--failing to let go, honor NC, knife-twisting messages to my BW, stalking me online (including here on SI), etc. I want nothing to do with her. I am embarrassed to admit that I told this woman that I loved her. I am ashamed that I hurt my BW in this way. I hate that my BW has to ruminate on this forever.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 5:27 PM, July 25th (Friday)

Thanks guys! I am such a mess right now. My husband and I are separated so I don't see his day to day feelings, but I don't feel like he is really putting in the work to uncover it. Almost like he just wants to move on. He says he won't give up, but I believe he might be. Not really sure I would blame him at this point. I am a hot mess. I call him, he pisses me off, I hang up and text him, which he ignores and it starts all over again! He is in IC and swears it is helping him, but he still doesn't even know why he did it. He says he prays every night that we will get back together. But I don't see that emotion from him. When with me, he acts like everything is ok and he is going to be fine. Maybe my expectations are higher since he did this. But I feel a need to see his desperation and need to know that he wants to come back because he needs to be with me. Was this am issue with you and you BS, or have I been watching too many rom coms?? Do I have unrealistic ideas of what it means to be desperate to make a marriage work after infidelity?


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Macsecond
Member
Member # 43972
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, July 25th (Friday)

Hopeful74 - have you got some ideas of what you'd like to see from him? Have you guys discussed, or has he initiated discussion, on what he can do for you? Have either of you read the books oftenrecommended on SI (helping your spouse heal from your affair, and Not Just Friends)?

I was and am prepared to do anything for BH to make our R work. I'm trying hard to remain humble and to take my deserved licks, and BH has appreciated that. There are things I've done where he wasn't expecting it and hadn't thought to ask for it but I had done it anyway (given passwords etc.) My BH may still be numb/in denial/in shock, or perhaps my willingness to change and to do whatever it takes to help him get through this have helped.

I personally don't think your expectations are unrealistic, but everyone is different in their needs, and some (your WS) need to ask or at least try if you can't explicitly state what you need and make an effort to show they're in it.

Do you feel like if you told him what would help you that he'd comply? Or if he read something like "helping your spouse heal..." that he'd have some direction on that? He may have no idea.

For me, reading and researching on SI helped me tremendously in figuring out what best to do.


Me - WW (38)
Him - BH (36)
Married almost 14 years.
2 kids
DDay - July 4, 2014 (I confessed to 5 month OEA)
In IC and MC, working on R.

Posts: 156 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
HurtingandLost
Member
Member # 29322
Default  Posted: 5:47 PM, July 25th (Friday)

Question for WS: How can a WW cheat multiple times and never take responsibility for any of their actions, even when spread years apart. Is it even possible to still love a spouse and family while living in the fantasy world?

Claims she loves me, but won't go NC. Deletes texts. Claims she's just never good enough for me. That I've never said she's pretty (a lie) that I never make her feel wanted, everything's my fault (I cook, clean, do laundry, dishes, raise kids, work full time as the breadwinner, finishing my masters), all while she is on her iPhone 24/7 not helping.

Has refused IC / MC since 1st Dday. Refuses introspection. Refuses anything but "new" affection. Has never lived in real world, always on some alternate plain of existence whether its shopping non stop, hoarding, being a bad parent but claiming to be polly anna, etc.

Filled out paperwork for D, currently in awkward in house S. Is it ever possible for a WW in this position to ever hit bottom and fix their shit?


36 BH
Sons 16 and 8 Daughters 11, 7, 5.
Ex and STBX both cheated, thinking of getting a dog as a companion after D. At least they're loyal.

Posts: 1019 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: MidWest
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, July 25th (Friday)

Thanks Macsecond. I am still trying to figure out everything I need from him, but have given him some ideas. Reading has helped me. I have sent him articles and things that I have read as well. He says he has read everything I sent, but I really feel I need more emotion from him. I don't really want to hear how he is going I be ok. I need to feel the desperation to get me back. I know I am being incredibly selfish, but I truly feel I deserve to be. After all, I showed plenty of emotion on DDay, when he left me standing in her front yard crying while he left, only to return to her house later, where he stayed for 2 months! He had his selfish phase, now I am. I feel like a pathetic mess! Why am I trying so hard to hold into something he messed up? I just want him to try harder to show me it can work, than I am trying to find a way it can. He chose to cheat and lie and betray me, and eventually chose her because 'he did not know what to do'. He is the one that threw everything away for a piece of ass.He should be busting his ass harder than he is! Sorry for the rant. Is there anything in particular that your BS has found comforting and helpful? Something that makes him look at you the way he used to, because I don't think I can look at my husband the same. Thanks for listening!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Imissmyhusb
Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 6:13 AM, July 26th (Saturday)

I see many posts from WSs saying they realize the A was a fantasy and the feeling toward the AP wasnt real love etc, but has anyone of you felt that the AP filled a real (emotional or physical) void for you that u appreciate them for, even though you know its wrong to have had the A?

If so, do u believe u can still have real remorse?


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 229 | Registered: Mar 2014
LivingLearning
Member
Member # 42637
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, July 26th (Saturday)

Question for WS: I posted this as well in reconciliation board looking for perspective from WS and BSs. How long did it take to stop thinking of the OP? And did you have sexual thoughts of OP long after you broke it off with them?


Living and learning how to move forward
Me: BGf
Him: WBf
Dday: 02/2013

Posts: 116 | Registered: Mar 2014
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, July 26th (Saturday)

Ok. I am back. And still in so much pain, but I have had a clearer day, so that is good. But hating that I can't understand how my life can be completely turned upsidedown at tha hands if the man who 'loves' me. I don't know what the future holds for us, but have come to the conclusion that my entire adult life's happiness has been wrapped up in him. And I am terrified to be happy without him. And that in if itself scares the shit out of me!! And I am so devastated at the thought if him making love to another woman. I actually cried all the way home from work last night, thinking those thoughts that I did not want in my head. I am trying to to find my happiness and lean on myself and family and friends for support. I know in my head this was not my fault, but still can't help wondering what I could have done differently. And that is not healthy. My new question is this, my husband told me it was like a game to him. She would call and they would get into an argument and then I don't know the end result of that. I can guess though. Did any of you experience anything like that? That you were caught up in the game and fell in 'love'? And how much did you think about the AP while with you BS? I have thought back and honestly can not remember my husband acting as if he felt guilty about anything!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 7:02 PM, July 26th (Saturday)

Oh, and he met this OW in late August, and by the middle if October, he had slept with her. I am not understanding what was so special about her. He says nothing, but in a month in a half, he was willing u throw everything away to be with her. And left me standing in her front yard, crying on DDay! He said that if I had met him at the store when he called me, it might have gone differently since he was away from her. Could her hold on him have really been that strong? Strong enough to throw away 17 years of history with me and our family? He told me 3 days after I caught him that he would not have thrown away 17 years of marriage for just sex! It was so incredibly hurtful. Just to try to come home 2 months later, saying you threw away the best ting that ever happened to you! And you miss your best friend!! WTF?!?!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:48 AM, July 27th (Sunday)

HurtingandLost

Your WW is so deep in the fog right now she can't see what she's doing. It's the slow, cruel torture of your spouse and family and all of us waywards have been there at one point or another. The fact there are remorseful waywards on this site who are willing to fix their shit and working like crazy on R, proves that is is possible.

Is it possible for your WW? I honestly couldn't tell you. But I do know the best thing for you to do is get rid of your Give A Shit. Keep doing what you're doing. If she comes out of the fog and turns things around, you can decide if R is a possibility for you. But if she doesn't then you know you're in a good place anyway.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:53 AM, July 27th (Sunday)

Imissmyhusb

I can't really see that any wayward who is under the impression that it's ok for emotional voids be filled by other people rather than going to IC and working hard on ones self is capable of remorse.

Your husband is appreciative and thankful for what the AP did for him and how they made him feel? That's not remorse either.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 4:12 AM, July 28th (Monday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:05 AM, July 27th (Sunday)

Livinglearning

About two days after Dday I found SI and started reading the healing library and the posts on the wayward side. I had my first A-ha moment that evening when I realised the reality of the situation, I was using the AP to make myself feel better. Once I realised that my A wasn't about the AP I reached indifference pretty quickly and thoughts about the AP as a person stopped.

Now I only think of him in terms of a tool I used to have my A.

There are many waywards who go through long periods of withdrawal from the AP. I haven't experienced that soi can't offer much advice but hopefully someone will be along who can.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:18 AM, July 27th (Sunday)

Hopeful

You are trying to apply rational and logical thought to your husband's behaviour but in all honesty there just isn't any. A's and the following wayward fog are not rational, they are not logical and they don't make sense.

I cannot tell you what was going on in your husband's head other than he felt entitled and justified at that time. He convinced himself he was in love. The comment about not throwing your marriage away just for sex is just his self delusion... he's not a monster, he wouldn't throw a marriage away just for sex, so it must be love

He needs to go to IC, dig deep and figure out why he created justification in his own mind for an A. We cannot answer his why's for him, he has to do that himself. And even then, it won't make much sense to you.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, July 27th (Sunday)

A question on reading material, if I may.

I am not trying to be codependent here, as I have come a long way since my first D-day.

I know that I can't control my WW, but she still is, in my opinion, absolutely lost when it comes to her affairs...and trying to deal with them. Personally, I think that she has been avoiding this since the beginning---although she claims otherwise. She ordered a couple of infidelity books online, but did it without much research...and now has two books that explain why women were not meant to be monogamous in life. Needless to say, these won't be the basis of her rebuilding blocks.

She made a profile here, and has looked at the books recommended in the Wayward forum.

My question to you, is what book(s) would you recommend? I will give you my perceived insight as to where her head is, along with a quick overview:

We met in our late teens, and married in our early twenties. We both worked, by I work long hours, and six days a week. She is diagnosed with a congenital heart disease(hereditary), and can only work until 1999. She was a maternity nurse, who loved her job, and was very good at it. She always knew what she wanted to be, and it hurt her greatly to have to give that up.

But we had two young boys at the time, and she threw her energy into that role. As they got older, and out of elementary school, she had, in my opinion, some more loss of worth. After a bariatric surgery in early 2000s, she discovered that a glass of wine helped ease her stomach after a meal. This, of course, morphed into full fledged alcoholism over the next years. I, unfortunately, just ignored all this as I stayed in my little work/marriage world.

In the later 2000s, her resentments for me grew. I was a workaholic(probably)--60-70 hours a week average. I wasn't the engaged father in my kid's life. Don't get me wrong, I didn't ignore them, but I didn't take them out for sports, and our vacations were maybe every other year. This has always been my shortcoming. But I was loving, steady, and honest---just not a great communicator.

In 2009, my WW then decided she will get attention elsewhere. She joined AFF in May(I believe), and was having physical encounters by September. D-Day#1 came on 9/19/09, and we struggled until June of 2011. By this time, we had gone to MC, had a another D-day, and had a sort of limbo/false R.

At this time, I really felt that things improved. She went to detox for her drinking. She actively threw herself into AA. She pursued her sobriety feverishly...at least in my opinion. At this point, I was heading to divorce, but I would up in awe of how hard she was working on herself. She claimed that the drinking warped her thinking, and she opened a terrible door to infidelity. As much as I wouldn't accept/believe this to be true, over time, I started to change my mind. We were getting closer. She always(without my demands) tried to make me feel safe--she would call me regularly, tell me her plans for the day, text me, and left me very little room to imagine wrongdoings.

Until July 3rd of this year, I thought we were virtually reconciled. She seemed much more like her old self, and seemed happy in our direction.

On 7/3/14, I picked up her phone that fell down alongside the bed when she was asleep. I always had access to her phone...and have used it, but I decided to check the texts. Needless to say, I uncovered a 2.5 year EA/PA LTA with another AA member(a non-regular). It appears that this affair started about 6-9 months post sobriety.

So, while we very well may be on the path to divorce, she does seem to be looking for SOME answers. While she is all over the map--some days wanting to try to save the marriage, other days being defensive--she has asked me for help. Although this is her shit to fix...and I know this...I would like to try to pick book that may have the most affect on her. Obviously, a book on boundaries would help, but I am hoping there is a book with the same type of philosophy as her AA books and teachings. She has really shown energy in that area, although she obviously wasn't truly working the steps---as she wasn't really being authentic in all aspects of her life. She believes that she has empathy for me, but I can assure you that she does not---and this really frustrates her. She believes otherwise. And I can't do anything about that, except assure her by examples that she has no idea of the damage that she has done to me.

Helping Your Spouse Heal From an Affair is a book that I believe may help with empathy down the road, but I am hoping that the first book that she reads can really strike a chord with her present mindset--confusion about how she has reached this point. Any suggestions?

I appreciate your time.

By the way, while she did make a profile here, to my dismay, has not participated. If there is one thing that I asked of her, it was to give an honest effort in the Wayward forum. I know that I can only lead a horse to water, but if she would invest a real effort there, I KNOW that she could gain a lot of much needed advice.

I am not trying to save my marriage...I am a big boy, and have been here for years. but what I would hope to see, would be an investment of her time in trying to not only work on her sobriety from alcohol, but from infidelity.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2054 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, July 27th (Sunday)

Question. My WH told his AP that he loved me and that he basically just couldn't resist her. She only was ever "something on the side" that he felt entitled to. Do you think telling the AP that you love your spouse was part of what made the A hot for your AP and for you? I mean, did you actually mean it when you told the AP that you loved your spouse, or was it just part of the illicit affair hotness? Why would you bother to tell the AP that you loved your spouse, when by all appearances you didn't?

[This message edited by plainpain at 1:54 PM, July 27th (Sunday)]


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 11:21 PM, July 27th (Sunday)

Imiss --

Now that I know better, I know my APs did nothing for me. They helped fuel my wrong thinking. I told them how badly BW was treating me, or how unfair work was, or how an A was OK. And my APs agreed with me.

We often say that the AP is just a mirror of ourselves. The AP just shows our own holes. They do not fill them.

I understand thethinking that AP helped me in some way. I would talk to AP about my problems. So I would be tempted to say she filled that need. But that's not true. I should have talked to BW about those things. By going to AP, I made a bigger hole to fill.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:41 AM, July 28th (Monday)

JB,

You cannot make your WW read and heal herself. I don't know of any books that will help specifically with your situation, but even if you suggested them to her, would she read them?

Detach, do the 180 and focus on yourself.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 5:28 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Broken,

I know I can't force her, and I am not trying to do so. She outright asked me for help on choosing some books....being that I have been on this site for some time.

She ordered (2) books online from Amazon, and I couldn't be more disappointed with their content. She questioned their theories, and when I read them, I knew that they could be more harmful than helpful. Again, I am not trying to be codependent here, and am not *forcing* her to do anything. I am just trying to help with a request that she specifically made to me.

What I would really WANT her to do, would be to post regularly in the Wayward forum, but like you stated, I can't make her do anything.

I can only make suggestions---and I am not even going to do that. I mentioned it once after my last D-day, and that is it. I have my own work to do. If she asks for help, I will offer advice---but beyond that, she is on her own....as am I.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2054 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 5:37 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Well it's a start that she asked you for book recommendations! Tell her you're not going to seek them out for her, that's not your responsibility. If she wants help she will get it in spades over on the wayward forum along with book recommendations, so she should post there like you already suggested.

This is the book thread over on the wayward side.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=318321

Send her the link so she can have a look and order any that she feels would be helpful to her.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
leftoolate
Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Hi Plainpain,
Question. Do you think telling the AP that you love your spouse was part of what made the A hot for your AP and for you? I mean, did you actually mean it when you told the AP that you loved your spouse, or was it just part of the illicit affair hotness? Why would you bother to tell the AP that you loved your spouse, when by all appearances you didn't?
Although I never said anything specific about my love for my husband or my feelings for the AP, my AP and I did discuss family events and mentioned spouses and kids, and never in a negative way. Looking back, I think I was trying to reinforce the notion that the affair was not supposed to be something serious or lasting. And to pretend that it wasn't so bad. Perhaps that's part of it - as long as you claim to love your spouse, you're not that bad... Ludicrous, yes. For me it wasn't part of affair 'hotness', but part of the mental gymnastics to enable it. I'm sorry you're dealing with it.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 817 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
HormonalWoman
Member
Member # 29265
Default  Posted: 9:41 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Is there an answer to the how could you question? I know there are many ways a wayward can justify it to themselves, but how did you bypass your own beliefs and morals about infidelity to do it anyway?


Together 13 yrs
BW - Me
WH - Him
3 Children
DD 20th June 2010 actual affair was early 2008 for roughly 10 wks.

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Sometimes something will come on TV that reminds me of my FWH's A. It's almost as if he senses it, because he always says "I love you" at that moment.

Example: We're currently watching season 1 of American Horror Story. The male lead is telling AP that he never loved her, and he used her, and blah blah blah. I start thinking "I wonder if this is really how WS feels." Right then, he looks at me and says "I love you". I always wonder if these things make him think of the A, or if he's seeing my face and wants to shut down any possible backlash because of the A talk.

Throughout the show, for those that haven't seen it, there are a LOT of A related items. My H had no problem talking as if the male lead was the biggest POS on the planet. It's a bit annoying, as he's not some innocent bystander in the A world, but it is what it is.

Thanks in advance


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Sorry - double post (stupid internet)


[This message edited by painfulpast at 9:44 AM, July 28th (Monday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1893 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 10:10 AM, July 28th (Monday)

Hormonalwoman

For me, as I suspect is the case for most waywards, it boils down to being a selfish, entitled arsehole. We just didn't care about anything or anyone, except ourselves.

Painfulpast

Personally, A related stuff on TV triggers me to my husband's pain. I don't think of the A but I think of how much he is hurting because of the A. So I always ask if he wants to change the channel or if he is ok. If he is within touching distance I will squeeze his hand or give him a kiss. The purpose of this is to reassure him that I am here for him, that I understand his triggers and show my support. It's never to shut down discussion, by acknowledging the trigger I am inviting discussion about it.

Before my A, infidelity was never abhorrent to me. I always thought it was wrong and horrible but I had a 'it's not the end of the world' mentality about it (that's due to my FOO)
Now, I get it. I know what it does to people and it's disgusting and vile behaviour. Yes it does seem hypocritical to think this way as a WS but that's part of the healing process a WS goes through.
Your WH can most likely see himself in this TV character and sees what a POS he was during the A but his attitudes and boundaries are changing, which is good!


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, July 28th (Monday)

She is aware of the book thread in Wayward. She did show me, and ask if I knew specifically if any may be more geared to her mindset.

And that is really what I guess that I am asking. When I gave a brief overview in my original post, it wasn't me reaching out because I am at my wit's end...at least not about this. What I was/am looking for, is a book, or books, that really struck home with you. I know that this is her mess to fix, but if she is asking for help, I at least want to offer help up to a point where I fear codependency may come into play. I am still under the belief that if she was willing to apply herself here on SI, that she could gain more help and support than any book has to offer, but that is just my opinion. Different methods for different people. But unless you make a personal COMMITMENT to want to improve, then nothing is going to happen. There is no magic book, website, medication, or any other source that is going to do the work for you.

I may be frustrated, but I am a realist.


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2054 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, July 28th (Monday)

but how did you bypass your own beliefs and morals about infidelity to do it anyway?

For me, it was gradual. Barriers were broken down with AP. We'd start talking about personal stuff and comparing our problems. Then we flirted. Then we kissed. Then more.

At each step, I had to make a decision. Since the world didn't end when we kissed, for example, I felt OK to do more.

To do that, I had to compartmentalize a whole lot. Convince myself that this relationship with AP didn't matter, because it was in its own little box. It was against my morals, but I could just not think about it. I knew I was wrong, but I was able to set aside those thoughts, just for enough time to carry out the A. That amount of compartmentalizing is not normal. That is a powerful muscle, too. The more I did it, the easier it became.

In addition to, or probably in aid of that compartmentalizing, I'd make all kinds of justifications. Lots of them were that my BW didn't care about me. She was distant, I was being neglected, I deserved to be happy. then they really got bad -- I'd think those silly things like people weren't meant to be monogamous, that if I was doing it on "my own time" I wasn't harming my family, that I was just filling up my cup so that I didn't have to walk out on my M. Somewhere along the way, I convinced myself that I loved AP, that I was helping her dark life, that I wasn't hurting anyone.

Someone upthread asked why some people could and some could not have an A. I know that my mental issues: allow me to compartmentalize; allow me to justify my bad behavior; allow me to blame everyone else for my shortcomings; allow me to feel entitled to what I want without consequence; and allow me to take an easy way out instead of facing conflict. Some of that I think is chemical -- I would get depressed, and not care about much of anything. But a lot of it was not chemical. After I got my depression meds right, I still carried out my A. I didn't know how to face my other problems.

I don't know if all those "ingredients" are necessary. But in my case, that's why I had an A. So many people that I know don't have those issues -- they understand consequences, or they cannot compartmentalize like that because their morals come through across the board. Those people probably could not have an A.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:52 PM, July 28th (Monday)

My H had no problem talking as if the male lead was the biggest POS on the planet. It's a bit annoying

It is pretty possible that your WH feels like a huge POS himself. Saying ILY at a time when you may trigger may be a conscious effort to soften that trigger. Or to tell you that he doesn't want to be that character.

As an aside, BW and I used to exhale in relief when an episode of Season 1 ended. Like "whew, we made it through that one".


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, July 28th (Monday)

"After the Affair" by Janis Spring was the very first thing I read. I think it is one of the most comprehensive, generally applicable book about the A and its effect on both partners.

It doesn't dig into the whys much. I think that may be a specialized question. But just for living through the first couple of months, After the Affair was a godsend for both me and BW.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, July 28th (Monday)

"After the Affair" by Janis Spring was the very first thing I read. I think it is one of the most comprehensive, generally applicable book about the A and its effect on both partners.
It doesn't dig into the whys much. I think that may be a specialized question. But just for living through the first couple of months, After the Affair was a godsend for both me and BW.

Does it discuss about how the WS moves forward...i.e., setting up boundaries, making their environment safer...or does it more or less describe the fallout of the affair?


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2054 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 2:27 PM, July 28th (Monday)

Another question from a BS trying my damnest to make sense of it all (I know that is ludicrous) and find hope. Is it possible for a WS to do all that they can to change themselves, do the therapy and make things work, only to fall right back into a fog and do it again? And, if so, was your BS wiser the next time? Or were they blindsided yet again? Thanks again!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, July 28th (Monday)

After The Affair is a good one for moving forward and creating boundaries. As is Not Just Friends. Both of those really helped me.

You've mentioned Co-Dependency a few times, JB. Have either of you read anything about that? Because if you're Co-D then your WW is too (well, she's the dependent side of the dynamic between the two of you, especially with her alcoholism.) Co-Dependent No more by Melody Beattie is definitely worth a read.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 3:18 PM, July 28th (Monday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, July 28th (Monday)

Hopeful

I think situation would mean the WS never really got it or did enough work on them the first time around. They may have gone to IC but it was probably not a good counsellor and they didn't dig deep enough etc. I've been on SI for seven months and I haven't see that happen to any of the waywards that use SI.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 3:14 PM, July 28th (Monday)

Is it possible for a WS to do all that they can to change themselves, do the therapy and make things work, only to fall right back into a fog and do it again?

I think that it is possible. I hate to compare my mindset during the As to an addiction, because I do not want to minimize any physical addiction. But it is kind of a go to comparison for a lot of us.

I have all of those awful tendencies in me. If I am not vigilant, I could fall back there. The thing I am most concerned about is depression. I know that I could react to a negative situation by saying "screw it, I'm going to withdraw." If I do that too many times, I may end up right back where I was. The same thing goes for boundaries.

The part where BBT is right is that my work has shown me 100% the danger of that. It has shown me how completely miserable and out of my mind I was back then.

I do not ever want to go back there. So I am vigilant. I monitor my AD meds. I just tried to cut them, and had some little hiccups. No one noticed them except me, but I resumed the higher dose right away. I keep my boundaries. I try to not say "whatever" or "it doesn't matter" because those are ways I used to withdraw.

Where I am at today doesn't guarantee success. But it shows me what I need to do. It makes it possible to keep it up. But if you don't do the work in the first place, you never get there.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
jb3199
Member
Member # 27673
Default  Posted: 6:12 AM, July 29th (Tuesday)

You've mentioned Co-Dependency a few times, JB. Have either of you read anything about that? Because if you're Co-D then your WW is too (well, she's the dependent side of the dynamic between the two of you, especially with her alcoholism.) Co-Dependent No more by Melody Beattie is definitely worth a read.

I only use the codependent term because of this perceived "attempt" to fix her this time around. It really is not the case, and I don't believe that codependency is taking place. I have no illusions or delusions about how this relationship will play out.

I know the drill from my side of the table. I am on my path to getting out of infidelity, and have zero thoughts of trying to control any outcome. But that being said, WW is asking for some guidance based merely on the fact that I have been a student of infidelity for the last several years. I owe her NOTHING in the way of help, but would like to help steer her in the right direction, if it is at all possible.

All the work is on her. She knows this, as do I. But I also know that there are some damaging books out there for someone who is trying to start to understand the depths to which they have sank. I believe that reading the "wrong" material at this time can make huge delays in the potential recovery steps. Personally, that is why I am a big fan of her trying to post here, but again, that is entirely up to her...


BH-46
WW-44
2 boys-17 & 20(special needs)
Married 21yrs.(together 27yrs.)

All work and no play has just cost me my wife--Gary Puckett
D-Day: 9/18/09 D-Day#2: 2/19/10 The Marriage Killer: 6/6/11
Heading for D


Posts: 2054 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: northeast
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

Question: How do you feel when your BS makes disparaging comments about your AP? Saying your AP was ugly or a "user" or whatever? Do you agree with your BS, do you feel defensive for the AP, does it make your BS look pathetic?


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

Ooooh Plainpain that is a good one! I wanna know the answer, as well. I have never spoken about a woman the way I have about my H's AP!!! I never want to hear him say her name. She is whoreface to us!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

How do you feel when your BS makes disparaging comments about your AP?

I don't think I have ever tried to defend my AP. I realize BW is very insecure about me wanting to be with BW and not AP. I might not be a smart man, but I know that any defense of AP will only make that feeling grow.

I try very, very hard to never bring up AP or anything that might remind BW of AP. I think I have done a decent job of thinking before I speak most of the time. I have swallowed lots of statements that may have led BW down that path. For example, a few weeks ago, there was a good band playing at a club that AP and I used to go to. I saw it and was going to mention the band, just an offhand remark. Luckily, my filter caught that remark before I said it out loud.

Your first question was "how do I feel?" I feel pretty bad. First off, my A was pretty much 50/50. So when someone calls AP something horrible, I automatically think that same thing about myself. Which is 100% true. It's not that I feel defensive for AP. It's just that in my case, she is no worse than I am. Which is really bad, I know. At the same time, I cannot bash AP or think badly of her/them.

The bigger point is that when BW says something about AP, I know that BW is comparing herself to AP. I know that comes from BW's pain and insecurity, which I have caused. I hate that BW feels that way. BW still has this thought in her mind that someday I will pick AP. I feel terrible when I know she is thinking that way.

I have tried to show BW that my As had nothing to do with the APs. They were all about my brokenness. There is nothing special about the AP that would make them an alternative to BW. BW knows this, and given enough time and good behavior, she might actually believe it.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

One of the things I've been struggling with with my husband is understanding how much of his affair is a "new" development/breakage in his character or if it was there all along and I just never noticed it and it was just waiting for a trigger to emerge to the surface.

For the WS,do you feel like your wayward behavior resulted from character or internal issues that you had all along? Or was it a fairly confined or recent creation of issues?

My husband swears he's never had an affair in any previous relationship. I recognize some boundary issues I think he's always had - he's a KISA, charming to people - though never crossed the line to flirting or indicating interest - and when I met him he was separated from his first wife, living separately, and they were seeing other people but he had not yet actually divorced (neither seemed to be particularly concerned with it because it was just "another piece of paper"). perhaps I downplayed those to myself all along, or perhaps they were within the range of normal. But the "break" in him that led to the affair seems to be something I can trace back to a particular time period in which he began creating social networks and beginning behaviors that were not marriage or family friendly - i.e. hanging out with a bunch of guys after work/at the gym for hours, started smoking pot with these guys, starting to lie to me about both things

in Not just Friends, it talks about differentiating between a person who lies versus a liar, and it's very unsettling to not really know if this is a recent, isolated - but obviously must be fixed so it doesn't happen again - breakage in him or if he was broken all along.


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

Question: How do you feel when your BS makes disparaging comments about your AP? Saying your AP was ugly or a "user" or whatever? Do you agree with your BS, do you feel defensive for the AP, does it make your BS look pathetic?

My BS is very focused and accurate in her condemnations. Even when she is in huge pain, she doesn't indulge in much hyperbole. As a result, it's very easy to agree with her and actively support her criticisms. No, it doesn't make her look pathetic. It makes her look hurt and we all know whose fault that is.
I don't feel protective of my AP at all. She committed her sins, just as I committed mine. She helped me blow up all of our lives and she doesn't get any more of my energy. My efforts are for my BW and myself.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

Double post

[This message edited by NoGoodUsername at 4:12 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:21 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

How do you feel when your BS makes disparaging comments about your AP? Saying your AP was ugly or a "user" or whatever? Do you agree with your BS, do you feel defensive for the AP, does it make your BS look pathetic?

I threw AP under the bus on Dday and never looked back. At that point I hated him, I wouldn't have pissed on him if he were on fire. Now, I am indifferent towards him. So nothing my husband says about him has any effect whatsoever. I certainly don't think it makes a BS look pathetic, feeling like that should be articulated, heard and processed.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

For the WS,do you feel like your wayward behavior resulted from character or internal issues that you had all along? Or was it a fairly confined or recent creation of issues?

Good question, Lark!

For me personally, I have definitely had boundary issues and seeking external validation behaviour for a long time. I have never been unfaithful in any other relationship and never had any wayward behaviour in that respect but the lack of boundaries, self esteem issues and need for external validation have been an issue since before I met my husband. So for me, the A was the perfect storm of those personal issues intensifying and the opportunity.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 4:32 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, July 29th (Tuesday)

do you feel like your wayward behavior resulted from character or internal issues that you had all along? Or was it a fairly confined or recent creation of issues?

A little of both for me. I've always been flirty and had what I identify now as weak boundaries in conversation. However I never, ever, considered an A in the 15 years previous to actually having one. So whereas I see that my character contributed to the behavior, I also think circumstances in my life were necessary for me to actually act on that potential if that makes sense.

Your question revolves around how can you make sure it doesn't happen again? How will you know it won't or should you cut your losses on this lemon of a H? For me I now know where I made the bad decisions that led me down the road to the A. I can stop that before it happens again. I know that when I'm not in a good place with my M I might be vulnerable. And I've experienced the fall out from indulging in an A and it's not worth it. I'm stronger and more aware mentally of my weaknesses. I think all of these combined makes me less likely to have another A. Maybe even a safer bet than someone else who has never had an A or reached that level of awareness.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
HormonalWoman
Member
Member # 29265
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, July 30th (Wednesday)

Thanks for the replies to my question.


Together 13 yrs
BW - Me
WH - Him
3 Children
DD 20th June 2010 actual affair was early 2008 for roughly 10 wks.

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
Arden
Member
Member # 44285
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, July 30th (Wednesday)

What is the motivation behind the trickle truth method of confession? Are the small confessions a means to hide a larger lie?

It's been one year since his confession of an emotional affair that he claims was never physical, aside from kissing. It only lasted two weeks. He immediately confessed the affair, but the details came out slowly over several months, and now he claims (as he often did before) that he has told me everything. I am obviously having a hard time believing that, and sometimes suspect that there was a physical component as well. He denies this and says that he knew it was wrong and always stopped before anything else happened. We are in MC and he is doing everything else right, but the initial TT is a great barrier to any kind of recovery. Do any WS have some insight on how we can move forward?


Me - BGF 30
Him - WBF 31
Together 7 years
Dday 7/21/13 ("Mostly" EA)
Getting TT, but both trying to R

Posts: 68 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: United States
SadieMae
Member
Member # 42986
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, July 31st (Thursday)

My WH (sex addict) had a year-long cyber affair. They texted, skyped, and talked on the phone. He told her he loved her... A lot.

Now he tells me that for a couple of months, at the beginning, he did think he loved her. Then, he wasn't sure if he did or not. Then, for the last 6 months, he knew he didn't love her and never had. Yet he continued the affair, and never wavered in his expressions of love.

I just don't understand any of this logic. Maybe that's my problem, I'm still trying to look at it logically?


Me: BW 40
Him: SAWH 40
Together half our lives.

Posts: 78 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: North Carolina
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:54 AM, August 1st (Friday)


I have a quick question to all current and former wayward/involved spouses out there. It's something that is really eating me and I would really really appreciate if you could weigh in on it. I am a BH and you can find my story here: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=523278
My WW is truly remorseful, and says there are no more butterflies. All that is left is disgust and self-loathing.
My question is: do all of you feel this way? Or is there still a lingering feeling of excitement and joy over the experiences you had, the moments you stole, the intimacy you shared with someone else?

(I also posted this under "General", before finding this thread. Sorry for any confusion!)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 8:19 AM, August 1st (Friday)

RD75, for me, there isn't any joy in the memories I have. If I allow myself to think of those moments, they are quickly associated with images of my BW bawling. The pain and grief I have sentenced her to trumps any possible good memories. It's Pavlovian.

Furthermore, my AP has behaved badly since DDay, not respecting my decision to try to repair my M, disregarding NC, trying to get me back, stalking me and BW on SI, sending knife-twisting emails to my BW.... what good feelings about her, sympathy I might’ve had for her, they are long gone.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, August 1st (Friday)

SadieMae --

I cannot apply any logic to my As.

I do know that most of us would tell ourselves anything to justify keeping up the A. For some of us, we tell ourselves we loved AP, so that made it OK. For others, we tell ourselves that there wasn't any emotion involved, so that makes it OK.

For me, I am pretty sure I wanted to stop my As before I was caught. But I never figured out how to do that. I couldn't face the fact that I have missing pieces inside of me, so I couldn't walk away. At the end, I was totally aware that the As were not helping me feel better, but I just kept going.

It isn't so much the excuses and justifications we used at the time. Those were pretty universally crap. What is important is to recognize why we thought that way, and why it was wrong.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, August 1st (Friday)

All that is left is disgust and self-loathing.

This is absolutely true. Even though I have had no contact with AP since DDay, I am horrified by what I did. There is no residue of any good feelings there.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 8:41 AM, August 1st (Friday)

Arden, TT is sometimes legit in that certain details aren't necessarily at the top of the mind in the shock of discovery. If the A was long and/or occurred a while ago, imperfect memories can make some details hard to recall. That said, I'm not excusing TT. It's our job to divulge all that there is and leave it up to our BSs to decide what's important. As details are recalled, we waywards should volunteer them--dont wait to be prompted. Perfect clarity isn't required. Certainly anything recent shouldn't be too hard to recall, especially if the A was short in duration. For my part, when I've deliberately withheld info, it's been because I didn't want to have to face the truth of how awful and shameful my behavior has been. Lying to myself to try avoid vulnerability, I ended up hurting my BW worse, deepening my own pain and shame. The net result is that even when we waywards are telling the whole truth, we have no credibility and are much further behind in trying to rebuild credibility and trust, if that's even possible after an A.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, August 1st (Friday)

Can anyone tell me why a WS would continue to lie and deny an affair once it is truly suspected? I suspected my husband was having an affair and called him on it. I even kicked him out of the house until he could come clean with me about what was going on. He left and never confessed. I had to find out on my own. I find it hard to believe that he had no future plans with her. He has told me he never stopped loving me and never saw a future with her. However, his decision to leave the house instead of coming clean to me tells me he is lying. But, he did still give me his whole paycheck once he was gone (until I caught him, that is), so he wasn't putting money away either.

[This message edited by Hopeful74 at 10:15 AM, August 1st (Friday)]


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, August 1st (Friday)

Arden
What is the motivation behind the trickle truth

Part is self preservation, but the larger part is that keeping some of the horrible details of the A feels like you're doing your BS and your M a favor. That what they know is already horrible enough, and telling them more would be unneccesarily hurtful. Even though I've seen that logic backfire again and again on SI, it's still my motivation.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 11:08 AM, August 1st (Friday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, August 1st (Friday)

Sorry guys. Me again. I have a couple if different questions. First, I have read a lot of posts concerning why an affair happens: it is an escape from reality because it is easyand thrilling. My H has told me that his was kind of toxic, like a game (however, he did feel as if he loved her). She was very controlling and psycho. How could that have been 'easy' with no complications? Also, for those that separated because of the affair, then reconciled, how did you show your BS your remorse and that you were willing to do whatever it takes to make your marriage work while you were apart? What did you sacrifice to make them decide it was worth it?


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:30 PM, August 1st (Friday)

Thanks ThatGuy and something! I appreciate your insight and honesty. Any other waywards out there willing to weigh in? Don't hold back. If there are indeed traces of joy and excitement lingering, I can take it.

[This message edited by RawDeal75 at 6:33 PM, August 1st (Friday)]


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 10:14 PM, August 2nd (Saturday)

Hopeful, my LTA grew out of convenience. I had a series of more or less random encounters over the years, none of which were all that satisfying and in several cases, physically sickening. My LTAP was convenient, available, and willing. I thought that was just what I was looking for. Turns out that what I was really looking for was external validation that I was worthy, but on the cheap and easy--no real work necessary. So while my LTAP also turned out to be just as manipulative and codep as I, the effort I put in to keep things from spinning completely out of control wasn't the kind of "real work" that I could have and should have been doing to improve my relationship with my BW. The kind of work I did with AP was trying to keep her crazies under control just enough so I could continue to get what I wanted. Real work involves things like maintaining a home and family together, managing finances together, building dreams together for a future. An A is an escape from all these things. It exists solely inside Bubble World where it's just the W and the AP. No one else really exists except to act as a foil for the W's self-pity and entitlement.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, August 3rd (Sunday)

RD75,
no, I don't have any lingering excitement about my AP. I have deliberately framed sexual thoughts of her to test how I felt on occasion and it has gone through a range of negative emotions over time. At this point, the idea of being with her is ridiculous and shameful.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, August 4th (Monday)

Hopeful74
Your questions are so hard to answer because they are very case specific and for the most part my situation was different than yours. But I known a little about...

How could that have been 'easy' with no complications?

The logistics, communication and deception are anything but easy in an A. I can agree that it did feel a bit like a mental game/challenge to get all your pieces the lined up. What was easy about the A for me was the emotions. There was no 'working on the relationship'. It was taking selfishly and if AP didn't like it, then go.

RawDeal75

If there are indeed traces of joy and excitement lingering

Your WW, like Nogoodusername and most of us WSs change the way we see the A and relationship with AP. It's darker underbelly has been revealed and we cannot look back on those times without having the negative taint the picture so much. The one thing I can honestly say I miss is having something to do. The A took time out of my day and was stimulating for my brain. I'm finding healthy habbits and hobbies to fill that gap now.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 8:26 AM, August 4th (Monday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, August 4th (Monday)

QUESTION:

Is it possible for a WS to really have a breakthrough shortly after coming clean? I was tipped off about the A on 7/4/14 and received TT until I got a wave of what I do believe is the truth 2 weeks later from WH. I had found his story didn't add up and kept pressing him. Since then (and I know this was recently) he has confessed to feeling inadequate in all aspects of his life, including believing that he didn't deserve me. He wanted a fantasy life where people didn't know his history and struggles. He believes this complete lack of self esteem is what led to his A. I will give a little background:

WH was diagnosed with Anxiety and Panic Disorder a little over a year ago (although he had all the symptoms prior to this, he just finally got help). He started IC to work through his issues but had really only scratched the surface. Right before the A started, he had to cut back on hours at work (toxic work environment combined with anxiety) and he was a full time student but had to withdraw from that semester because he was failing classes (this is before A)... then his IC went on maternity leave right before the A began, so he felt like in this time of extreme difficulty, the person he felt he could talk to about it and had built a relationship was unavailable. Our MC has called this the "perfect storm" and my WH agrees. He has even admitted to me that he compared our FOO issues, like if i complained about something that was difficult from childhood, he would think to himself "you have no clue what real pain is, you don't know what I went through" which is true because he never opened up about it. He also admitted that our whole relationship he has never allowed himself to be FULLY invested in case I ever hurt him (ironic). Does this sound similar to other WH or WS out there? He fully admits that his A was nothing to do with me, it was that he felt he was failing at everything (perfect storm) and letting me down by not finishing school when we anticipated... what was one more thing if he was already such a big f*** up anyway (his words). He has really opened up to me about a lot that I didn't know. I just want to see if others have experienced this same thing my WH is going through, and how did you get through it? (SORRY SO LONG!)


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
sarahstar
Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 12:03 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Question: As a WS, did you think of your spouse when you betrayed? My husband keeps saying he just didn't think. But are you just in a fantasy and can't think rationally or are you aware of what you are about to do? I am trying to get a grips of WH thinking as we are in reconciliation and he almost betrayed again but stopped himself and came home. I just can't fathom doing the wrong thing by my husband and cant understand how he can so easily do it to me when he supposedly loves me so much.

Posts: 91 | Registered: Jun 2014
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Concerned  Posted: 6:37 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Thanks familyfirst and NoGoodUsername!
May I follow up with a spin on my own question to you, somethingremorse, ThatGuyNoMore and all other WS out there (especially WW):

Even though you are remorseful for your actions and see no joy or good feelings in the memories of your sexual and emotional encounters, can you still know, feel and understand that AT THE TIME of the A they were joyous occasions, that they were happy, exciting back then?

My WW does not admit to this at all, and almost want me to think that she felt dirty, hollow, bad and disgusting also at the time when she had sex with the OM. I cannot accept or understand this. I can fully understand that she now see her actions as disgraceful, repulsing etc., but back then she must have felt the butterflies and the joy, must she not???


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

(question to moderators: how can I get access to older threads - BS Questions for WS's - Parts 1-8? I guess there may be good info/answers there too...)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:27 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

RawDeal --

I think it is possible that your WS felt bad during her A. Even during sex. I think that varies for each specific person.

For me, I know I felt awful right after, every time. This may be TMI, but when I would meet my APs, I thought they were really attractive. Like immediately after sex, I focused on every imperfection and blemish. Really, I was so disgusted with myself that I projected.

FWIW, I don't think I have ever done that with BW. After 25 years together.

I know that when I started each encounter with the AP, I was excited. But for me, there was always a bit of a "push." Like when you are standing on the diving board, and have to tell yourself "come on, jump in." I think there was a point in almost every physical encounter where I had to convince myself this is what I want to do. I don't know if it was me feeling disgust before, as much as it was just knowing that the encounter was going to make me feel worse when I was done. There was always a threshold that I needed to cross. I admit that it got easier to cross the more that I did it. But is was definitely there for me.

For me, once I decided to jump of the diving board, I would block out all of those doubts and regrets. So I usually enjoyed myself during the act itself (and during sexting, whatever). But it was bookended closely by a lot of bad thoughts.

Your WW may be different. People have sex for different emotional reasons. I think it is entirely possible that someone could feel dirty and used during the encounter. It is possible that is the reason for the A.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

RawDeal75
AT THE TIME of the A they were joyous occasions, that they were happy, exciting back then

At the time of the EA, it was making me feel good. Happy maybe, but joy?...not so much. Joy is an emotion I associate with my children's face when they see their stockings on Christmas morning. The good feeling of the EA was more like the kind when you win a hand in blackjack.

My PA was exciting but in a bunji jumping sort of way. Thrilling and nerve wracking is a better way to describe it. But that was just me and I knew my AP for over 20 years and trusted him. Even then I can think of some times with AP where he was overly selfish. Dirty is the exact word I would use to describe that feeling.

Depending on how you WW's AP behaved during the encounters, I can completely believe she did not enjoy it during the act. I think most women crave intimacy and when you have sex and it's not intimate it can be extremely deflating and even damaging. I know the idea that you could be sympathetic to your WW when hearing about her feeling dirty is absurd to you, but that is an awful awful feeling that she has to deal with. I imagine you are asking her about that over and over and making her revisit that in her head. Can't be good for her psyche

sarahstar
I thought of BS after, but rarely if never before and certainly not during. When getting ready to meet AP I had tunnel vision for him only and all other thoughts got pushed out. In my mind I was 22 and meeting someone for a date. I could almost feel the ties of responsibility fall off of me when driving there. It's like I took a hit off a crack pipe when I left my house and just got more and more high until I got back in the car to go back home to BS. Then I would crash. I had no concious betrayal of BS when AP and I were together.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 10:38 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

I could almost feel the ties of responsibility fall off of me when driving there. It's like I took a hit off a crack pipe when I left my house and just got more and more high until I got back in the car to go back home to BS. Then I would crash.

This is exactly what I was trying to get across. For the last half or more of A#1, I would drive about an hour out to AP's house. I'd do it during work hours (thinking that if I had an A on "my time" that I wasn't shortchanging my BW or kids). So I'd have to make up an appointment on my calendar. I'd start my lies far in advance, so I'd need to start acting as if I had an appointment far enough away from the office that it would make sense to be out all morning. I'd have to "schedule" a client with whom I was working on something recently, but not too actively lest they would call my secretary and blow up my spot. So I'd get all wound up in all these stories and lies, which always made me feel awful.

During this time in my A, AP was dropping her kids off at daycare, so sometimes I'd have to let myself in the house and wait for her.

All during the drive out there, I'd kind of slip out of my normal self, and go into my A self. By the time I'd be in someone else's house waiting for AP, I'd be excited at that point, like a teenager.

When I left, I took the entire drive back to work to deal with my shame and guilt. By the time I had spent the entire morning going back and forth, I had the A packed away in my neat little box.

All of what I just admitted is gross. Even though I can tell you what was happening in my head, it never gets easier to see. Even if I explain it in rational sentences, and even if I understand what I did and why I did it, there is never a point where I say that any of it makes sense. It's all just so messed up. If it doesn't seem rational or logical to you, it is because (at least in my case) I was not rational or logical.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:28 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

RD75, it is quite possible your WW felt sick about what she was doing. I had multiple ONS and one LTA. Some of the ONS, I felt physically ill several times to the point that I couldn't continue with the sex act. Other ONS, I had no trouble. I couldn't tell you why some encounters did that to me and some didn't. Speculating here, maybe because I felt like I got to know one woman better than another--I don't know. With the LTA, the sex was something I usually enjoyed very much. I never got the butterflies of joy, however.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, August 5th (Tuesday)

sarastar, no, I tried not to think of my BW. I was caught up in the moment.

For your WH, he needs to become mindful of dangerous situations so he doesn't find himself in one. He should know what's appropriate and what's not, and not even come close to crossing that line. If you're an alcoholic, you don't go into bars. If you're a wayward, you steer clear of those one-on-one situations and don't flirt.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

somethingremorse you make another good point that might help sarahstar. I think it must be hard to understand how if the WS did all the planning associated with the A like you described (and yes I had fake meetings, made up dr appts, etc on my calendar too) then the WS must be rational and thinking with a clear head. But YOU AREN'T. It's like the invasion of the body snatchers takes you over and you do/say/plan the most unbelievable things. There is no explaination for it! sarahstar your WH is still a jerk like the rest of us for doing what he did, but I really don't think he's lying to you when he says he was not thinking.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

WS must be rational and thinking with a clear head. But YOU AREN'T. It's like the invasion of the body snatchers takes you over and you do/say/plan the most unbelievable things. There is no explaination for it! sarahstar your WH is still a jerk like the rest of us for doing what he did, but I really don't think he's lying to you when he says he was not thinking.

This is so scary to me; this is what makes taking the chance on reconciliation so risky. Even with all the IC and MC and changes in behavior and thinking, what will keep a wayward from boing in that place where they are invaded by "body snatchers" and not thinking in a rational way? How does this NOT happen again?


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Neverwudaguessed, your WH has to figure out the "why" of his A. It's probably not a superficial answer. Assuming your WH is remorseful, he should be doing the digging to figure this out, what led him down the path to make the choices he did, and what he can do in the future so he doesn't have another A nor make other destructive choices. Often there are deeper problems stirring inside waywards. But the "why" isn't an excuse. Other people have the same problems your WH has but they don't choose to cheat on their spouses. That's why he needs to continue to work after discovering "why" to figure out how to deal with things constructively.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Thatguynomore. Thank you. He has done much work i that area, yet my apprehension about trusting, about believing that the "body snatcher" no longer have an easy place to take up residence in my husband's head. I suppose that is the plight of the betrayed spouse.


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 2:05 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Neverwudaguessed
I don't know your WH's story, I should preface that the invasion of my body snatchers came after many poor decisions that I had the ability to control. You don't wake up one day as a 40 year old mother of 2 completely off your rocker meeting someone in a parking lot on your lunch hour. My A started by opening up to someone who wasn't my H. I got emotionally close to AP, then by the time the conversations became inappropriate I was already reliant on him for friendship and validation. The beginning was so subtle I didn't know or didn't want to see that it was even wrong. By the time I noticed I was going insane I felt like I was on a runaway train unable to get off.

How do I know that won't happy again? Because now I know the signs where a normal friendship can take a dangerous turn. I won't put myself in that situation again both physically or emotionally. And not just staying away from it, but I also plan to notice when I might be vulnerable (lonely, feeling unloved etc) and fixing that reason as well. ThatGuyNoMore said it well

For your WH, he needs to become mindful of dangerous situations so he doesn't find himself in one. He should know what's appropriate and what's not, and not even come close to crossing that line. If you're an alcoholic, you don't go into bars. If you're a wayward, you steer clear of those one-on-one situations and don't flirt.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 2:43 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
leftoolate
Member
Member # 22658
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Neverwudaguessed,
Even with all the IC and MC and changes in behavior and thinking, what will keep a wayward from boing in that place where they are invaded by "body snatchers" and not thinking in a rational way? How does this NOT happen again?
As ThatGuyNoMore said, working on the why will make a lot of difference. It will help him figure out where to start changing his thinking and his behaviour. He'll get to practice, every day. Ideally, the changes in thinking and behaviour in themselves lessen the vulnerability to an affair, in case your heartbreak and hurt isn't enough of a deterrent. And these changes will be visible in more areas than extramarital affairs, fortunately. If you look at his actions, you may be somewhat reassured, I hope.

~L.


If you came this far, you're looking for something. - Jrazz

Posts: 817 | Registered: Jan 2009 | From: Europe
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

How long after D Day did you consider yourself to be completely honest? That is, when did you finally stop TTing?


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:41 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Thanks again! Your input is extremely valuable to me, and hopefully to others as well. The way you share these private details about yourselves and your thinking is just... wow!

Good analogy with the diving springboard! And I get and agree the difference between "joy" and winning in Black Jack.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 6:43 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

To clarify things a bit: my WW has described her sexual encounters as fumbling and insecure in the beginning but utterly intimate and sensual as time went by. Slow, not rushed, very generous on both parts, lots of intense eye contact. She had several O during her encounters with the OM. These are some of the reasons I have such a hard time believing that the encounters would have been so disgusting...


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 6:58 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

family first, I so appreciate your words. You describe things so well. As a woman, I wonder about this:

I know the idea that you could be sympathetic to your WW when hearing about her feeling dirty is absurd to you, but that is an awful awful feeling that she has to deal with.

My H is ashamed and remorseful about his actions now, and there were a few spots during the affair that he felt were sordid at the time, but as a man, I don't think he got that "dirty" feeling.

For me, I can't imagine not having that feeling after, say, having sex in an abandoned lot with a married man. Maybe not before or during, as you describe, but after. It gives me a tiny shred of empathy for his AP when I think that is how she may have felt. I see it as so self-destructive on her part. Of course, he said lots of wonderful stuff to her too, but also things like "I don't think you and I could be best friends like Bionicgal and I are," and it was understood all along that this was not an exit affair for him.

So, I guess my question is, if you don't mind, how did you deal with those feelings during the affair (if you had them during)? If any other WW wants to chime it, I'd appreciate it. I really am trying to get to the point where I can see some humanity in the AP so I can get to indifference.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1998 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 9:57 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)

Thank you familyfirst for your insight;I wish that my husband had not been clear about what he was about to do, but I believe that since this was an ex girlfriend, he knew that he was seeking attention from a woman who was beyond wiling to give him anything that he wanted. He was definitely looking for attention and the feeling of being completely adored. She would be the willing participant which was going to be the answer to his empty. I don't think there were any illusions there, but I could be wrong.

leftoolate: I do see the changes in MANY areas outside of the affair and you are reiterating EXACTLY what my IC says, that it is so apparent when we look at his actions. I SHOULD feel so reassured and I feel so guilty about that because so many BS wish for the effort ad change that I have received from my husband. Unfortunately the blindsided feeling that shocked me upon discovery keeps me from relaxing about the good that has come out of it. I think this is just something that I have to get myself past. I appreciate all of the input.

[This message edited by Neverwudaguessed at 9:57 PM, August 5th (Tuesday)]


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 3:50 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

bionicgal, I hope you don´t mind me commenting on your post. I´m a BH, not a Wayward, so I may not be able to provide insight, but perhaps I could offer a different perspective on the AP. You mention that you want to se humanity in, and eventually indifference towards, the AP. I don´t know the details of your story (and the genders in our stories are the opposite), but for us the AP was an old flame (from 20+ years ago) who started inhabiting my WW´s surging "Sliding Doors-dreams". They had not met in 21 years when she contacted him. He is (was?) married with two beautiful kids. I had a lot of contact with him after D-day and even though he showed me no remorse/regret and never apologized to me, he was always curteous and respectful towards me. He gave me the full story while I only got TT from my wife. He seems to be a decent guy who made some horrible and despicable choices. To me, that makes him immoral, but I don´t loathe him, hate him or see him as inhuman. He never made me any promises. My WW did, and she broke those promises and my trust. I fully understand that there may be cases where the AP is a complete POS, but ours in not one of them, and I generally don´t understand the ill will towards the AP´s I read and hear a lot about. I was betrayed by my WW, nobody else.

Just my two cents for what it´s worth...
(Now back to WS answering BS questions)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

Yakamishi, It was a couple of weeks after DDay before I fully admitted the depth of my infidelities. My BW discovered me with my LTAP, but it was communication between the two of them afterwards that outted my multiple ONS from many years before my LTA. Then I came clean on all of those, the multiple online EAs, and my use of pornography, all of which I was much more ashamed of than my LTA, yet my BW was far more forgiving of those. It felt liberating to let all that go. TT after that came with revealing details that I didn't remember or think to mention at the time of confession. I didn't view revealing those details as TT--I wasn't deliberately concealing them, I was just recalling them once prompted, and even those recollections were unclear--but BW certainly saw them as TT. I can see her point of view, and I saw how much those details hurt her. We had a discussion this past weekend about me volunteering info. I don't want to poison locations for her or give her mind movies, but it's important that she knows stuff, especially if there's something that might trigger a memory in me. That way she can decide whether it's best to avoid X or reclaim X as ours.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 7:33 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

RawDeal (and maybe this will help waywards as well, I should have said it earlier. . ) AP was a friend, so I am having problems with the distance you describe, and not taking it personally.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1998 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

Ouch! So sorry to hear that bionic!
I don´t think it changes my general feeling about contacting/discussing with AP, but when there is that extra layer of complexity I guess you have to consider the potential outfall from that too.


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

what will keep a wayward from being in that place where they are invaded by "body snatchers" and not thinking in a rational way? How does this NOT happen again?

This really is THE question, isn't it.

For me, my motivation starts internally. I realize that I was unhappy before and during my As. I realize that the As made it worse. I was lying and deceiving the people around me, not caring about any consequences of my actions, being depressed and withdrawn. I know that I had a hole in me. And I know that the As and all my behavior made that hole bigger, not smaller. I would literally stand in my house with my keys in my hand, wondering if I could just run away from everything and start fresh.

My motivation is that I never, ever want to go back there. I don't want to be that unhappy and depressed ever again. I have remembered what is important to me, and I never want to jeopardize that again. It is a huge motivation for me. I feel like a kid who put his hand on the hot stove.

There are lots of thoughts that go with my internal motivation. These deal with my M. Like I said, I realize what makes me happy and fulfilled, and what does not. Now that I have a clearer picture of that, I know that my BW and my family fulfills me. BW is exactly the person I need to balance me out. I completely realized this 20 years ago when we got married, but somewhere along the way I convinced myself it had changed. I know now that it has not changed.

So I am motivated to make myself happy, and I know that my safe BW and my improved M will get me there. Keep me there. From there, it is a matter of practicing the behaviors that will give me that desired result. I will take my ADs. I will make sure that I do not withdraw. I will share my thoughts with BW. I will be transparent. I will constantly avoid situations where I could eventually get in trouble. My actions are going to work for the things that make me happy.

I used to think that I was a sensitive, complex, misunderstood person. I know now that I am the mouse in a maze. I need to hit the button to get the food pellet. I know now what kinds of actions and thoughts and relationships are my "button."


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

bionicgal

Thanks for the pass RawDeal75, and I agree APs are not inherently bad people. Mine wasn’t. I could have conceivably married him had our lives not taken different paths 20 years ago. But even with this "good guy", even if I believed he loved me and we were star crossed lovers, when you are paying for hotels in cash under fake names, having s#x in the back of cars and throwing away used condoms in a park public trash can there are no other words better to describe your feelings except dirty and cheap. so

how did you deal with those feelings during the affair

My coping changed with the duration of the A. In the beginning I justified the sleaziness by saying it was all fun! I talked myself into thinking I was in a now or never type situation to do that in my life and it was time for a leap of faith. I dwelled on all the words of love and affirmation AP gave and tried to forget the rest. But there are some things he said to me that ripped apart my soul. Background - I went to college with AP. I was one of the few females in a very technical program. AP and his bf, (let's call him Greg) were my friends but I knew they were both attracted to me. I was interested in AP but our timing was always off. (tmi alert) Fast forward 20 years, we reconnect, AP tells me he's always been in love with me, he’s still carrying a torch for me, etc. After 4 months of this kind of attention I agreed to meet him at a hotel. The first time we had s#x I told him I loved him, during. Immediately after he said "you have no idea how much I want to call Greg and tell him I just f*cked FamilyFirst". I could have crawled into a ball of shame at that moment. I thought we were making love, but no, he was f*cking me. How do I make peace with that? I'll keep you posted because I'm still trying.

As the months went by he also told me in various ways that he was happy with his W but just couldn't resist me. I dealt with these ego blows by telling myself that his actions didn't match his words, and that his actions were more important. I also thought he would change his mind. I would periodically break up with him so he would realize how important I was to him. It was a pathetic attempt to reclaim some power and self-worth. It didn't work. Funny thing was I didn't even have plans to leave my H, I just wanted AP to want me that much. I became desperate for his approval. Every time I went back to him it ate away at my self-worth. It was incredibly self-destructive. In the end I was feeling like crap at home, and with AP. I started drinking a lot. The writing on the wall turned from “we were meant to be” to “you’re being used”. Things came to a head and AP basically told me he was never going to leave his W. I found the strength to say goodbye and now almost 6 months later I'm still dealing with repairing the internal damage.

My story is not everyone's, and I don't expect any BW to feel compassion for the AP. But I do. An affair leaves no one unscathed.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)

FF:
I so appreciate your perspective and your candor.

You said-

I could have crawled into a ball of shame at that moment. I thought we were making love, but no, he was f*cking me. How do I make peace with that? I'll keep you posted because I'm still trying.

I can actually hurt for you on that one -- ouch.

There is something called the prejudice model, which says that we will remember and attribute meaning to things that tend to support what we want to believe. Likely in the affair, you wanted to believe you were doing a good thing, and something that had meaning. You didn't want to believe you could be a 'bad person.' So, like most waywards, you discarded most information that didn't jive with "star crossed lovers," and therefore couldn't see you were being used. Except sometimes, when something happened you couldn't quite rationalize away - like the moment you describe. All waywards have those moments -- I know my H does.

But it is a good thing, right? Because if you didn't have those seeds of reality (the moments in the affair when you saw beyond the self- deception, and saw it for what it was) then you'd be a sociopath or something. It is that part of you that didn't get off track. It is that part of you that can help you reconcile - it is likely, the "real" you, unaffected by ego, selfishness and need for external validation.

So, kudos to you for getting healthy, and coming here and trying to help others. Blessings to you and your OBS.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 11:53 AM, August 6th (Wednesday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1998 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)

QUESTION:

My WH TTd for 2 weeks before he really broke down and says he has given me the whole truth. I feel by his emotional state when he confessed that he has told me all of it, and his story since has not changed at all. He has been very open with answering all of my questions. I know a lot of BS say to prepare for more TT but I am wondering from WS...are there any of you that couldn't TT for long and the remorse you felt was so overwhelming that you finally came clean with everything shortly after? Or should I really expect more? My WH has been in IC and has been uncovering his "why" (low self esteem, feeling he wasn't worthy of my love, making himself fail before he could even try and fail, long standing FOO issues he has kept inside for 20 years). He has been more open with me about his emotions these last few weeks then ever before, I feel like I am getting to know who he is deep inside. Is there a possibility that he really had a break this quickly and that the "worst" is over as far as discovering more details?


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
GoodAsICanBe
Member
Member # 44359
Default  Posted: 5:45 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)

What mad you finally confess all and stop taking your frustration out on your BS?


Carpe diem.. I refuse the shackles of unhappiness!

Posts: 232 | Registered: Aug 2014 | From: U.S.
sarahstar
Member
Member # 43889
Default  Posted: 5:56 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)

thankyou Familyfirst and Thatguynomore
I appreciate your comments.
Trying to get that insight into my WH head is driving me crazy. I have told him about this site so he can read about it all as well. I am hoping it does him good seeing we both decided that we don't want to talk to a stranger about our marriage... ie. MC IC

Posts: 91 | Registered: Jun 2014
devotedfool68
Member
Member # 38047
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, August 6th (Wednesday)

Question for wayward wives.

If you were not remorseful immediately after D-Day, why not?

How long did it take you to start feeling remorse?

And why do you think it took so long?

Thanks in advance


Posts: 213 | Registered: Jan 2013
theseseatsRtaken
Member
Member # 43088
Default  Posted: 4:54 AM, August 7th (Thursday)

Notanaverageangel:

I came fully clean 2 days after DDay #1. In my case I managed to come to the realisation quite quickly that if I truly loved my wife and my new born son, that I would give them the chance they deserved to move forward, with or without me, based on the truth. And so out it all came.

The snag in my case though was two fold. First, I had been lying and deceitful for 10 years so there were some things, some big deals and some smaller details (every detail is a big deal to a BS) that I simply didnt remember. So they become TT'S. Second, my BW went through a phase of specifically not wanting me to disclose any further details I remembered and when occassion came to unlock that door, boom! More TT.

As far as I can tell, im more of an exception than a rule in this regard. But yes, its possible he has told all. But I wouldnt hold your breath that that means the painful discoveries are over.

Im truly sorry you are here. Best wishes.


Me: WH 29
Her: BW 31 (RomanticInnocenc)
Our son: 6 months
DDay#1 Jan 8, 2014, DDay#2 Jan 10, 2014
Being given the gift of attempted R
I don't PM with female members.
"Your character is who you are when no-one else is watching".

Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, August 7th (Thursday)

somethingremorse: T
here are lots of thoughts that go with my internal motivation. These deal with my M. Like I said, I realize what makes me happy and fulfilled, and what does not. Now that I have a clearer picture of that, I know that my BW and my family fulfills me. BW is exactly the person I need to balance me out. I completely realized this 20 years ago when we got married, but somewhere along the way I convinced myself it had changed. I know now that it has not changed.

I believe that my husband would say the same about me and us now. This is so perplexing to me about the process. It has not quite been a year, yet such a miraculous about face. And I don't know about your Dday, but from your registration date, it may have been recent as well?
HOW DO WAYWARDS GET SO LOST AS TO HAVE THE AFFAIR YET GAIN SUCH CLARITY AS TO DO A COMPLETE AND UTTER ABOUT FACE IN SUCH A SHORT AMOUT OF TIME?
This behavior feels so untrustworthy just in its unpredictability. Such sweeping changes and realizations after inflicting such major soul crushing damage just to arrive at what could have been seen all along by viewing things differently; Of course this is oversimplified, but the extreme nature in such short order is so scary. How do we (way wards and betrayers) know what is real?


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, August 7th (Thursday)

theseseatsRtaken
I came fully clean 2 days after DDay #1. In my case I managed to come to the realisation quite quickly that if I truly loved my wife and my new born son, that I would give them the chance they deserved to move forward, with or without me, based on the truth. And so out it all came.

Thank you for your feedback. Considering how open my WH has been the past few weeks, VS when I had partial truths, my gut tells me that he is telling me the truth now. I can see why people told me he would keep lying, because in my original thread I posted here, I started it right before I first confronted him with all the information I had...so I kept adding things to my thread as I learned them, but at the time I felt peoples comments were a little harsh. I guess I was still in denial and not wanting to hear that he could still be keeping more from me.

Based on his actions the past few weeks, I believe he is sincerely remorseful and it seems like he has had breakthroughs in IC (he was in IC before A for anxiety and panic, his IC went on maternity leave right before A and some of his anxiety had become worse because we were struggling financially and he wasn't feeling like a provider among many other things that would take too long to write). His IC believes that he experienced the "perfect storm" where his already low self esteem took a huge nosedive. Not that this excuses what he did by any means. He has opened up about some LONG standing FOO issues to his IC as well as to me the past few weeks, that he had kept inside for over 20 years never telling anyone. I believe that he would have kept living this "fantasy life" where he wasn't a "failure" if he hadn't been caught, but I also believe that getting caught really snapped him back into reality and he has been more open and honest with me then ever.

(((theseseatsRtaken)))- Do you believe that is the case for you? Would you have continued if you hadn't been caught? Do you think that being caught was a good thing for you to snap you back into reality and realize who you were really hurting, and do you feel like you are genuinely becoming a better person because of it? Are you and your BW working on R?

I am not going to say that maybe his A is a catalyst for us to improve our M, but I think the remorse and steps WH is taking after may actually help us build something stronger in the future. That is my HOPE of course. My WH keeps reminding me to take it day by day, but I am a fixer. I feel like I keep reading and searching for a "magic pill" that will make this pain go away and bring us back to a happy place. If only that existed.


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 2:28 PM, August 7th (Thursday)

notanavrageangel, I know I would've continued if I hadn't been caught. I couple of times I tried to break off my A and couldn't. Maybe I could've eventually, I don't know. And I just kept spiraling deeper and deeper into the online world, getting further out of control there. Maybe I could've stepped away from that too. But the reality is that I needed a crisis in order to get off that train. I believe I needed to get caught in order to force me to confront my issues honestly and fully.

The day after DDay, my BW told me she loved me, which blew me away. It's not like she never said that before, but for years I had projected this sort of insincerity on her because I believed I was unlovable and unworthy. That she told me she loved me AFTER discovering my A, well that just jolted me. It was as if the shit-colored glasses I wore when looking at her were lifted and I could see her for who she really is--the kindest person I know.

Yes, I do hope that I'm able to use this cataclysm as a catalyst to become the person I should have been all along. I don't want to be that guy anymore, the liar, the cheat, the fraud. I'm going to IC & MC, reading SI & books, and writing in my journal to work on that. My BW and I are communicating far more authentically and constructively than we have before, so that gives me hope that we can build something stronger out of the ash-heap of this marriage that I burned down.

It's a big 180 from the selfish PoS I was before DDay. I have to keep working on it to ensure that I eliminate "wayward thinking" and develop strategies so I don't take the A train again. My BW recognizes that I'm doing the work, doing the right things, but in the end the damage I did may be too great to save our M, unfortunately. I also wish I could speed this up so my BW wouldn't have so much pain to go through and I could prove my dedication to honesty and fidelity sooner so she could feel safer. The doubts are killing her and may doom what chance we have at R.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, August 7th (Thursday)

notanavrageangel - it took me 60 days to stop the TT and the story remained. Although I was still hiding feelings and thoughts at times, and remembered a few extra details months out. But my BS has said she could feel the difference after out dday2 when I spilled it all.

goodasicanbe - I was so panicked all of the time, i had to take a leap of faith. I had to get it out. I couldn't breathe until I did

Neverwudaguessed - what choice do we have but to do an about face? if a WS gets it at all in the beginning they quickly realize that what they have been doing and acting is all wrong. and they are about to lose everything that matters


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, August 7th (Thursday)

(((ThatGuyNoMore)))
The day after DDay, my BW told me she loved me, which blew me away. It's not like she never said that before, but for years I had projected this sort of insincerity on her because I believed I was unlovable and unworthy.

Thank you this really resonates with what my WH and I are going through. He had projected his own feelings of being a failure and unlovable onto me as well. In fact, just today we had a text conversation where I was telling him how sometimes I feel like he is listening to me and not hearing me. That I applaud him for working on being more open about his feelings and struggles with me, but occasionally when I am talking he looks distracted or doesn't fully comprehend what I am saying. His response was "Great so I am failing at listening, what else am I doing wrong? I am working hard to change". Immediately I could see what his mind was doing to him, and realizing that there was still a lot of work to be done, and I explained this to him and was able to help him see how he was sabotaging himself. No where in the conversation did I say he was a failure, I was just trying to communicate my feelings. I feel like this was actually a huge breakthrough for us because I can now think back to many arguments we had pre-A, and see this pattern of thinking. It used to be so frustrating for me because we would just go in circles and he would blow something up and I couldn't understand how something so small became bigger. I am happy that I have been able to notice this behavior in him too now, and I feel its a big step for us to understand how we can improve our communication, and how I can remind him that I don't think he is a failure, that he just projects that onto me so he can say "see everyone does think I am a failure". Thanks for sharing your insight. Although our conversation this morning was rough, I feel positive about the way it ended this time, rather than previous arguments.


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, August 7th (Thursday)

Devotedfool68

If you ask my BH, I'm not remorseful 10 months out. I can tell you that I feel remorse. I try to express it. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.

What is your WW not doing that you need?


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 399 | Registered: Dec 2013
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 2:42 AM, August 8th (Friday)

Neverwuddaguessed --

Great question. To be perfectly honest, I worried a lot about this myself. I asked both my MC and IC if it was true. In fact, for months I told my IC I was afraid I was full of shit, just acting the way I needed to save my family.

For me, two things convinced me and my Cs that I am genuine. First is that internal motivation. I know how unhappy I was. I know when I was happy. I want to be happy. So I can evaluate what I need to get me there.

The second thing is, I guess, repetition. When I was unhappy, I went from one thing to another to try to fill the void in me. Nothing worked. Now I keep coming back to really understanding what I NEED and how BW gives that to me. Sure, I wish she'd throw on lingerie once in a while. But what I actually NEED to be happy? That is all right here.

I also think I was kind of ready. Not that I was ending my A. I didn't have any courage or conviction to do that on my own. But I know that I was going along as much out of habit or routine as anything else. I was out of the fog before I was caught. I really felt relief, like now I could start to put things back together.

Sometimes we waywards make comparisons to addicts. Its more of a metaphor than a straight comparison. For me, I figured out pretty quickly that being caught and forced to face myself was an intervention. That is, it was not rock bottom for me. I know I would have been much more destructive than I was. I would have lost everything if I had kept on my path. That is very sobering. I think that realization was when I really started to break through. I remember BW starting to believe at that point. Realizing that is a huge motivator towards discovering the truth in a short time.

Still, even with all that being said, there is a tiny bit of doubt in me about whether I am truthful about everything. I will need to address that the rest of my life. So it is only natural and pertectly correct for my BW to have doubts too. I think she will need to live with those as well.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 4:05 AM, August 8th (Friday)

Neverwudaguessed: I spent a long time after DDay in a fog, not committed to R or to recovering myself. I was confused and lost. When BH threw me out and said it's over, it was like a slap in the face or a bucket of cold water over my head. It literally woke me up. Someone compared it to an intervention and i think it really was like that.

For sure since then it's been gradual progress. I didn't wake up suddenly being the person I should be. I'm making progress on that everyday. But the sudden realisation that I could lose my H and my kids was what I needed to get out of that fog. I understand for a BS it's difficult to comprehend that I didn't realise I could lose my H and kids when I went into the A, but I compartmentalised that somewhere deep in a box inside my head. Unfortunately my only thoughts were about the A. This seems horrible to me now and I feel sick when I think about my thinking at that point.

I think only time will tell if your WS will really fix what needs to be fixed but it's totally possible to do an about face and suddenly realise what's right and true in your life.


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2014
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 6:20 AM, August 8th (Friday)

Somethingremorse and Lostcat, thank you for your insight; it has given me a lot to think about. My instincts tell me that the changes in behavior and attitude in my husband are real even though they have been achieved so quickly, but my instincts before knowledge of the affair would have had me staking my children's lives on the fact that my husband would never cheat on me so I am not quick to trust my instincts anymore. To hear from you gives me some sort of confirmation in this world that does not make much sense that I am on the right track...


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
devotedfool68
Member
Member # 38047
Default  Posted: 6:47 AM, August 8th (Friday)

Wayflost
Thank you for your reply.

I think any WS who is actively posting and trying on SI IS AT LEAST TRYING TO "get it"
WW only posted here 3 times. That was over 7 months ago and it took her a year after being asked. WW is trying to be patient and supportive when I trigger or want to talk, but she still gets defensive and shuts down.

[This message edited by devotedfool68 at 6:47 AM, August 8th, 2014 (Friday)]


Posts: 213 | Registered: Jan 2013
theseseatsRtaken
Member
Member # 43088
Default  Posted: 11:00 AM, August 8th (Friday)

notanavrageangel:

Do you believe that is the case for you? Would you have continued if you hadn't been caught?

I think i would have continued and i think it would have escalated well beyond what it got to for me. Having said that i also know that it was reaching critical mass and was all about to implode so just how far - can never be sure. the point it, i was never going to come forward. Sadly, i had to be caught.

Do you think that being caught was a good thing for you to snap you back into reality and realize who you were really hurting, and do you feel like you are genuinely becoming a better person because of it? Are you and your BW working on R?

Yes. Being caught and having to face the true nature of the pain i have inflicted on an unsuspecting, innocent and truly beautiful soul - has been the most unbelievably self disintegrating experience i have ever gone through - and as yuou would know - is still a mere sliver of the pain BW is in 24 hours of every day. That experience has set me on a path to working on myself in a way i never have before. I am discovering who i am, and why i am the way i am. I am giving my BW a chance to fall in love with the real and genuine me. Not the pretender i presented as for 10 years. We are working on R, BW committed to it less than a month ago, 6 months out from DDay.

I feel like I keep reading and searching for a "magic pill" that will make this pain go away and bring us back to a happy place.

This really resonated with my BW. As its where her mind often leads her also. in all of her questioning of details she is often looking for an answer that will have that magic pill effect and somehow show her that i did in some way display a sense of sanctity over our marriage. That that will bring her some relief and help her move on... like magic.

Sadly, that magic pill doesnt exist. For anyone. the only thing that makes this better is a truly remorseful, consistent wayward - and time.


Me: WH 29
Her: BW 31 (RomanticInnocenc)
Our son: 6 months
DDay#1 Jan 8, 2014, DDay#2 Jan 10, 2014
Being given the gift of attempted R
I don't PM with female members.
"Your character is who you are when no-one else is watching".

Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
ncharge
Member
Member # 42365
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, August 8th (Friday)

My WH told me last night that he feels uncomfortable around my oldest son and our friends since everything happened. These are the only friends he has in the area and he now deals with thinking that they believe he is a smuck. They really don't - they know stuff happens and they just want us to be happy. But, he still thinks that and he is still uncomfortable. We both know time will heal this. But, I was wondering if any of the other WSs could give me some suggestions for helping him feel good with our friends again. Everybody needs friends. What did you do to feel better? What would you have liked to have happen that would ease things?

Posts: 105 | Registered: Feb 2014
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 12:44 PM, August 8th (Friday)

theseseatsRtaken

I thank you truly for your insight and sharing with me your experience. When I first found all of this out, I don't think I could have spoken with the WS on this forum but I feel like it is actually most helpful to hear from people who had similar dispositions as my WH. It helps me to understand that him saying his A had nothing to do with me, he was happy in our M and that it was deep dark feelings inside him he was trying to "make better" are not just a crock of shit and that if it weren't an A, he was in such a dark place that his IC believes he would have found some other destructive outlet.

I am discovering who i am, and why i am the way i am. I am giving my BW a chance to fall in love with the real and genuine me

I appreciate that you shared this because I feel like I am getting to know my authentic WH in a way I never had before, and its opening my eyes. Its been a short time, but I am really enjoying the man I am seeing and I just hope it all continues (see below about my fear that it may be a facade).

somethingremorse -

thank you for answering Neverwudaguessed's questions with such honesty. I had the same question about WS making an about face because my WH seemed to really snap out of his "funk" on DDay and has really committed to improving himself, building his self esteem and living a more authentic life in all aspects. I was feeling a bit like this may be a facade to keep me around, but I see how much work he is doing on himself and in his life, and he really seems happier. He has said to me that even though we are going through this, he has realized I truly am his best friend, and he will work his ass off every day to be the best man he can be and stop feeling sorry for himself. He has a great new job that is aligned with the field he is studying, he is excited about school to start this semester, and he has been so helpful with housework and always asking me how I feel, if I am okay and if I need to talk. He has been so open which is something I never experienced with him before and I am enjoying getting to know him all over again. I know that only time will heal these wounds and a truly remorseful WH, I hope he continues the way he has been going.


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 1:46 PM, August 8th (Friday)

I was wondering if any of the other WSs could give me some suggestions for helping him feel good with our friends again.

Time is the #1 answer.

At some point, I convince myself a little bit that I am human, and that we all make mistakes. Even if they are huge, awful mistakes. We don't get to erase those mistakes. But how we react to them, whether we try to take responsibility and make amends, that counts for something, too.

If I can see myself as someone who is recovering from my mistakes, then I can start to believe that maybe others see me that way, too. And that makes it a little less uncomfortable.

Let me say that this happens a little bit at a time.

One thing that has helped is having BW support me. When my inlaws see BW holding my hand, maybe they think I am worth a second chance in their eyes, too.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 2:31 PM, August 8th (Friday)

When my inlaws see BW holding my hand, maybe they think I am worth a second chance in their eyes, too.

I hope for that day.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ncharge
Member
Member # 42365
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, August 8th (Friday)

Thank you! I thought that was the answer. That 4-letter word.

Posts: 105 | Registered: Feb 2014
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, August 8th (Friday)

devotedfool68

I am trying.

I too shut down, and get defensive. It is reducing, but I know that I am not as successful as I want to be. Most often when I get defensive or shut down it isn't about my BH or what he is saying. There is a lifetime of self talk going on in my head at the same time. Unfortunately for him, he is having to deal with me in relation to my own dialogue.

When I fight back, it isn't me fighting back against him. It's me fighting back against everyone in my life who told me wasn't, couldn't, and would never be good enough.

SI isn't for everyone. I'm sorry that your WW hasn't tried more. Is she reading? In counseling? Anything like that?


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 399 | Registered: Dec 2013
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, August 11th (Monday)

I have noticed that many waywards have explained later on that they "thought the marriage was over, thought that their spouse did not love them anymore." My husband said this very thing which was shocking to me since it was so clearly NOT true, I had never even hinted of such a thing, and it didn't ring true to me. In the 11 months that I have been reading here, I can't believe how many times I have actually read the very same thing about other's stories of infidelity. How does thinking become that skewed? What is the process there? Any insight would be greatly appreciated; while this did not ring true to me because it felt so inaccurate, there is something in play here that seems to be happening real or not because so many waywards seem to recount feeling exactly that way. Is it justification to get permission from oneself to enter into the affair? IT seems more than that though as my husband truly believed at the time, in his loneliness that I had stopped loving him and it was just a matter of time that the marriage would end.

[This message edited by Neverwudaguessed at 11:28 AM, August 11th (Monday)]


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, August 11th (Monday)

IT seems more than that though as my husband truly believed at the time, in his loneliness that I had stopped loving him

I think you are on the right track. For me, it was some combination of:

1. using the "she doesn't love me" thought to justify the A;

2. taking little things out of context to prove my position. Like when BW was tired and not in the mood for sex, immediately jumping to the conclusion that she wasn't attracted to me;

3. extrapolating one incident to the foreseeable future. "If BW isn't attracted to me this exact moment, then she will never be attracted to me"; and

4. the very real fact that while in my depression, and especially during my As, I was pushing BW away.

It took me a while to figure out that last one. I thought I was keeping my A separate from my M, but it wasn't true. The A made me more isolated and unhappy. So I brought that into my M. there was more and more distance between me and BW, but an awful lot of that was caused by me. It was a downward spiral.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
lovehonorcherish
Member
Member # 41843
Default  Posted: 3:35 PM, August 11th (Monday)

I have asked this question before-here on SI, on other websites, in IC, in MC and directly to my stbxh- and I have yet to receive a response that really satisfies me. Stbxh's standard answer to practically every question I ask is "I don't know why". DDay was in March 2013. Stbxh made it clear he was unwilling to give up the AP so I packed my things and moved out of our home. I told him flat out that an affair was a deal breaker for me and I was prepared to divorce him so he could pursue his "relationship" with the AP. I consulted my attorney to begin the process. By the end of April 2013 stbxh contacted me and expressed his desire to repair and reconcile our marriage. I pushed my hurt, my fear and my common sense aside and decided to give him a second chance. We spent an endless amount of time, money and energy in IC and MC and by all accounts we seemed to be progressing quite well. Fast forward to March 2014...the AP contacted me at work to inform me that she was still quite involved with my husband and they were making plans to live together. I did not respond to the AP in any way. I confronted stbxh and of course he made the AP out to be a Fatal Attraction bunny boiler. At that point I was just devastated...didn't know who or what to believe...until a day later when a friend saw his truck parked outside the AP's apartment. I packed up and I was gone. Saw my attorney the next day and filed. Stbxh signed the divorce complaint and moved the AP into our home. My question is why? Why didn't he allow me to divorce him back in 2013? Why ask for a second chance? Why drag me through a year of false R only to end up right back where we started? Why didn't he run to the AP when he had the chance? She had already left her husband and children and was waiting for him to leave me. And what does he see in her...a woman who knowingly lied and cheated on her husband and then took my husband by the hand and helped him to destroy our marriage as well? And by the same token, what does she see in him...a married man who conducts himself that way? These questions me keep awake at night and are an endless loop running through my mind. I would appreciate perspective from anyone who wants to offer it. Thanks!

[This message edited by lovehonorcherish at 3:39 PM, August 11th (Monday)]


I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change...I am changing the things I cannot accept.

Posts: 125 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Northeastern US
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, August 11th (Monday)

Neverwudaguessed
In the very beginning of my EA I started to look at my marriage in a new light and laser focus in on the things that were missing. Important things like "H didn't email me 50 times today like AP did. He must not love me like AP does! I deserve 50 emails! Our marriage is essentially over due to lack of emails and I'm the last to know!!" I know how ridiculous that sounded, but I could run almost any new thing AP did through that same thought process and come up with "H doesn't really love me" That kind of justification helped launch me into the EA. However, once I was in the PA I went from obsessing about their differences to trying to never think about them in the same context. It's amazing what my mind did to protect itself from guilt and accountability.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
EvolvingSoul
Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, August 11th (Monday)

lovehonorcherish,

My experience does not exactly parallel that of your WS but I did have the experience of 1) seriously considering leaving BS for AP in the immediate aftermath of D-day and 2) I was not really completely on board with reconciliation for several months. I would say it was someplace in the 6-9 month mark that I committed to burning the AP bridge forever. I had no contact with AP during this time but I had not yet sent an "it's done forever" letter. So take what I have to say with a grain of salt, varying mileage, all that. Some of it might make sense though.

During the affair and if I am honest for most of my adult life I related to people more as sources of feelings than as actual people. Having a relationship become a source of bad feelings was, to me, a sign that there was a problem with the relationship and/or the relationship partner. Figuring out how and when I started thinking this way has been part of my "why" work, and the details are rather beyond the scope of this post (unless you really want to know.

What do I mean by sources of feelings? Well, to a large extent I was never really completely myself with anyone. I am not sure that at time I even had a self, just a bunch of characters that I had unconsciously tailored for individuals or groups of people. They shared common properties (nice, funny, happy) but it was in their pathologies that they differed. What they were willing to do in front of the "audience" as it were. That varied wildly. I actually thought of it as a gift. "Being able to meet people where they are" is what I called it. I can see now that I was sacrificing my authentic self every time I changed how I behaved to get the response I wanted from my audience. People were, in effect, just mirrors.

As such, my sense of motivation came almost entirely from outside of me. My self image was what I saw reflected back to me by other people. And when I did not like what I saw reflected back, I would distance myself from that mirror. This strategy for making decisions about with whom to spend time and what to spend it doing obviously turned out disastrous for me and for my BS. While I was in the affair I resented him for so much. But mainly for reflecting back to me that what I was doing (blatant EA, hidden PA) was not okay.

Okay, so, I didn't leave BS. I went cold turkey on contact (although mental NC took a bit longer to figure out, thank you SI waywards!). I committed to fixing my shit, as they say, even though at the time I committed to it I had no idea the depth of the work to be done. And I have fixed a lot of it. I don't look back on AP and those times with dreamy stars in my eyes. I no longer think AP and I were star-crossed soul-mates, and all that dreck. I see it for what it was. It was a source of good feelings at the expense of my BS's emotional and physical well being, and at the expense of my marriage and at the expense of my own soul.

I don't know how your WS is wired. But if he is wired anything like I was, and he has not seen that yet, then he's likely still running his decision making process on the good feelings/bad feelings evaluation strategy. As the reality of either relationship crashes in, they can switch places as a source of good and bad feelings. It is aptly summed up in that old adage "the grass is always greener..." Also, there is the "not wanting to be seen as the bad guy" need. This is a need that he may have been willing to meet at your expense, the expense of being dragged through the infidelity wringer for an additional year. The expense of additional damage that has to be healed on top of the original damage.

In trying to fix my shit, I have learned that I was emotionally stunted at about age 19. I have had to actually learn about adult ideas and expectations of love and commitment. I have had to rewire my brain through behavioural choices, meditation, IC, to be able to consistently think of marriage in those terms. It is so much deeper than anything I was willing to do or could even conceive of doing preD-day. Up to then I lived very much on the emotional surface and faked being a deep person pretty well. Is it possible that your WS has not really ever gotten his mind wrapped around what it really means to be in a committed, lifelong relationship? That it's not just about having a stable of people who help him get his emotional needs met? That as adults part of our work is to stop expecting everyone else to meet our needs (which is normal if you're a child) and start helping other people meet theirs?

Okay this is starting to get a little ranty. Been processing a lot myself lately. I hope this gave you some insight into the processes that power the terrible decision making upon which betrayal is built.

I am so sorry you have been put through this. Peace and healing to you from this occasionally EvolvingSoul.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 6:21 PM, August 11th (Monday)

somethingremorse - i enjoy your posts because they resonate with me and things my WH has said. His A was from end of Jan- mid April, and during that time we had a complete breakdown in communication, he wanted to go out with friends or even go to a bar to be alone often (i know these weren't times he met with AP because we have already gone over that) but I was thinking that things were getting bad in our marriage and I couldn't figure out why. Turns out WH was pushing me away because he felt he didn't deserve me and I think he knew what he was doing was wrong and felt badly about it so he pulled away from me. Looking back I know it was the choices he was making that was making our marriage struggle, not the other way around.


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
lovehonorcherish
Member
Member # 41843
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, August 11th (Monday)

EvolvingSoul...thank you so much for taking the time to provide me with a thoughtful response. It sometimes seems that my search for answers is endless (and pointless as the divorce is underway). As I stated in the original post, I have not received any truthful or helpful information from stbxh. He continually states he does not know why he did what he did. I'm not sure at this point how he is wired. I do know that he has been dissatisfied with the daily grind for a while...get up, go to work, come home, eat dinner, take care of chores, pay bills...the mundane things that adults all over the world deal with every day. And yet, he never attempted do one thing to mix things up a bit. He did seem to love buying big ticket items like a Harley, a 4 Wheeler, a new truck, flat screen TV. We were so busy working to pay for his toys that we never got to enjoy any of them and we could never afford to take a vacation because we had such a load of debt. One bit of information that I gleaned from someone who has seen the AP in action: she is a flirty, sloppy drunk, bar hopping party girl who has already left her own two broken marriages in her wake. Apparently the "slide down the slippery slope" began in the workplace because the two of them shared a common interest in photography and music (again this is second hand information). I find what you say about him not wanting to "be the bad guy" interesting. Most of our family and friends were shocked to hear that he was having an affair but they were absolutely appalled at the mental anguish and heartbreak he subjected me to during the year of false R. As a result...he has destroyed every significant relationship in his life. He's got no one but her I'm sorry I'm rambling. I really just wanted to say thank you for providing me with another perspective. Hope things continue on a positive path in your life!


I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change...I am changing the things I cannot accept.

Posts: 125 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Northeastern US
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 1:10 AM, August 12th (Tuesday)

ES --

Wow. You described something for me better than anyone or anything ever. I have played a role so often in my life. I used to point to that chamelon- like quality as a strength. I know now it was mostly faking.

I have noticed that every girl or woman I have ever "dated" has fallen in love with me. That is not always because of the genuine me. It's because I was acting the part of "whatever would get this girl to like me."

I am changing that. Trying to figure out what makes me happy, rather than relying on others.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, August 12th (Tuesday)

Repost from my BS thread as WS are not allowed to post replies in that part of the forum:

Hello all,
I have received so much excellent feedback, comments, 2x4s and support from the member of this forum that I almost feel bad asking for more. But here it goes anyway:

When it comes to the privacy/integrity of the WS during and after attempted R I understand that many (most?) of you have demanded and received full openness and access to any and all phones, computers, logins, passwords etc. etc. etc. Correct? How have you handled this? To what extent have you really checked up on your WS? Do you tell them when you do, or after you did? For how long did you monitor their communications? And, a question of conscience here, did you ever read anything else of their communication with others than their APs? Are they fine with that? Do the WS not also need some privacy and unmonitored support from their family/friends? Did you read their journal/diary if they have one?

I would really appreciate comments from Waywards on this topic too. What is your take on my questions above? How did you feel about releting control and allowing full transparency? How much/what is OK, and what is not from your point of view?

I am not sure how to handle this as I feel extremely bad "snooping around", even though my "control" is very limited. Should I check more? (I haven't found a shred of evidence or indication that my WW has been communicating with the OM since D-Day.)


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, August 12th (Tuesday)

RD75,

I used to be very secretive. I had an easy excuse because of the line of work that I'm in.

A few days after DDay when she asked for all my passwords, of course I gave them to her. Being fully transparent is the very least I could do to help my BW feel safe. I had to be transparent to prove as much as possible that I still wasn't carrying on my A. I say "as much as possible" because my BW can't monitor what I do 24/7. That would be the only way to give my BW the level of certainty she needs that I'm being faithful. She is always going to have some doubts & suspicions. She's always going to wonder if I have just gotten better at hiding stuff. Goodness knows there are enough horror stories on SI about Waywards who do that sort of thing and commit false R. (I just want to smack 'em because they are just destroying their BS's forever AND they're making it so much harder for those of us waywards who are making a genuine effort.)

Initially I was nervous because I was still hiding the whole truth from her. She knew about my recent LTA, but she didn't know about all the ONS, the online EAs, the porn. Once I finally came clean about that, it was a relief.

Today, I'm not nervous about her checking my phone, my email, or my browser history because I know I have nothing more to hide. Occasionally I do get anxious that her deep digging my produce something--an old photo or note, for example--not because I am hiding anything deliberately, but because I have honestly forgotten about the existence of whatever it was that she found, and frankly it's hard to have to explain it. There are only so many times you can claim "I didn't know it was there. I forgot about it," before your BS starts to think you're hiding stuff. I just want all that crap gone. I told her, if she finds something objectionable, delete it. I don't need to know what she deletes because I've clearly long forgotten about it or else I would have deleted it after DDay. Anything that remains is an old pollutant in the muck in the bottom of the river. I'm operating under the assumption that I have deleted everything. I haven't gone looking for anything else because I have no interest in any of it.

As for how often my BW looks, I know she looks at my phone every day. I don't know how often she checks my computer at home, nor do I know about other investigations she might be conducting on me. She is not naturally suspicious and cynical, she hates this about herself, and she resents the hell out of me for making her this way. She will check on me until (1) she feels confident that I'm telling her the truth, or (2) she decides she doesn't care anymore because she's divorcing my ass. I hope for Option 1! By being fully transparent, I at least create the possibility for Option 1. If I don't, then I seal Option 2 as my fate.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
theseseatsRtaken
Member
Member # 43088
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, August 13th (Wednesday)

RD75,

For me this is very black and white. I used to absolutely hate the idea of BW looking through my things. Whether it was personal property, accounts, phones, computers or what have you... I was never comfortable with it and i always preached my right to some level of privacy. What i never acknowledged at the time was that i was only doing this because of the mountainous heap of lying shit that lay just on the other side of that wall she was often keep to peep over and i was never prepared to risk her finding it.

Fast forward to now. If a wayward spouse is genuine in his or her remorse, humility in the face of what they have done, and determination to live an authentic life - then i believe the right to privacy with your BS has been relinquished. Not temprarily - forever. Gone. Surrendered. Not withstanding the fact that in a marriage there really shouldnt be any devices or journals or even any feelings or thoughts that you should not be able to safely share with your spouse. The trust should be there that you can be vulnerable with that person and know that no matter what, they love you and have chosen you for life. They will support you, empathize with you and guide you through your darkest issues. So you should never need that privacy anyway.

But not withstanding that - now that we have committed the ultimate betrayal and wiped out sometimes decades of happy, beautiful, safe memories - we need to respect the utter terror that we have bestowed upon our BS that we will do this again. It will never be completely enough to simply say we NOW love them or to behave in a loving and present way in our relationship because as far as they thought, we were doing that before. And we lied to them.

So I say leave no stone unturned. That is the arrangement i have with my BW, and it is not my intention to hand that back ever. She will always know all my passwords, what accounts i have, the right to burst into the bathroom when im on the loo, the right to show up at work unannounced and demand to view my browser history, to trudge through phone bills and ask for answers on who every singe number and call is to, to scour my phone daily for call logs, text messages, apps etc.

If a WS is genuine, as TGNM said, we have no reason to be nervous anymore because we have nothing to hide. I think i still get nervous sort of by habit? Ive spent 10 years being edgy about it and while its a massive weight that i am thrilled to have lifted now, i still flinch a bit. But i am blessed to now know beyond any doubt or concern that i can be completely open and free with my wife. The big point here is that only I know that. She never will. And THATS why you give up your privacy. Out of respect for that fact.


Me: WH 29
Her: BW 31 (RomanticInnocenc)
Our son: 6 months
DDay#1 Jan 8, 2014, DDay#2 Jan 10, 2014
Being given the gift of attempted R
I don't PM with female members.
"Your character is who you are when no-one else is watching".

Posts: 112 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

I have no problem with BW checking anything. In fact, I want her to catch me being good. So the more the better from my perspective. On the other hand, I know she hates to feel like she needs to check up on me. After all, when BW thought I was honest, she had no need to check up on me. So every time she does, it brings up my betrayal.

I really have no idea how much BW checks up on me. I know of two times where things were innocently messed up (IT turned off the track my phone on my Iphone, and once where BW misread the app - -both situations I have written about on Wayward forum) .

BW says she doesn't check much. That might be true or not. I think that even if she checked three times a day, she wouldn't tell me. That's because she wants me to be honest and safe because I want to, not because I think she is checking up on me.

I don't know if that helps, but it's my story.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
SoLostStillNumb
Member
Member # 44248
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

EvolvingSoul - thank you so much for sharing your experience. Though I can't be sure, but what you described as how you relate to people as "source of feelings" is similar to the way my WH acts and has always acted. I wish there was a way for him to see this now instead of dragging me through limbo for 3 months.

Either way, it's nice to hear there might be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks for sharing.


Me: BS 26 Him: WH 27
Married: 5 years, together 7
No kids
DDays: 6/3/14, 6/24/14, 7/2/14, 7/3/14, 9/5/14
Separated, headed for divorce
Trying to accept this nightmare is real every morning.

Posts: 190 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Currently all over
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, August 14th (Thursday)

This forum has been very helpful and therapeutic for me, since I could not get anything but generic answers from my STBXWH. His PA (they had been texting back and forth before anything happened) started when he would leave at night to go check on night jobs for work and he went by her house before coming home. The first couple of nights, nothing happened but on the third night, she made her move. I asked him what the hell he was doing at her house late at night if he wasn't looking for an affair (because he swears he wasn't ). He said he just went by to talk. When I asked him what they talked about, he answered 'just talk'. He says they didn't talk about me and our marriage (yeah, right) and that she didn't like to talk about me. That they only talked about the kids' sports and activities and didn't really talk about anything serious. I'm sure he is lying, but I just wanted to get some perspective from those of you that have actually looked into yourselves to fix what was broken, because he obviously is not doing any serious work on himself. Thanks!!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
EvolvingSoul
Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 12:15 AM, August 15th (Friday)

Hopeful74
he obviously is not doing any serious work on himself.
Well I think this about sums it up. The kind of introspection that is required to actually stop the crappy thinking processes that fuel wayward behavior is...well it's a lot. And you can't make anyone do it. They have to at least commit to stepping on the path. They might be ignorant of what they will be facing when they get going on the journey, they might decide along the way that it's just too hard and they want to bail. But if they don't start, they will just keep using the same crappy thought processes and having more or less the same outcomes over and over, with a trail of hurting people left behind.

Your WH's insistence that he was there to just "talk about nothing" and that somehow as a married guy with three children that any scenario in which he finds himself at her house in the middle of the night talking about nothing is an okay one, well that's concerning. Whether she was the one that made the first move or not, he deliberately put himself in a situation where it was a possibility that that could happen. And he probably did that because he was chasing a feeling. The feeling of being attractive, that was my juice. Maybe it's his.

So, I did this kind of thing a lot. When my cyber/EA affair with AP went physical, it was during a time I planned for him to help me move some of my stuff cross country. I would have told anyone and everyone that there was no way anything was going to happen, that I had good boundaries, and that I was in control of the situation. I would never, ever have let anyone tell me that as a married person it was a risky situation for me and my marriage and hurtful to my BS that I was even putting myself in it. No way I was giving up my two days of just feeling incredibly attractive to this person I had developed a secretive online relationship with. Basically I always had some kind of mental plausible deniability (to myself) that what I was doing was not as bad as it seemed, that my situation was different. Over time my not-okay-o-meter, which was never all that well calibrated, got very out of whack.

It has taken a lot of time and effort to figure out that the problem really was me, and then knowing that figuring out how to fix it. The fixing is a very slow process, because it involves finding more broken stuff along the way, and integrating those into the overall brain remodeling plan as well.

It sounds like your WS might have not even begun to figure out that the problem is him, and that he may be employing that plausible deniability strategy for coping with difficult things. That doesn't mean that he won't ever figure it out, but it's a very real possibility. Without any evidence at all that he is willing to look inward and face some really uncomfortable stuff, probably moving on to healing on your own is a good strategy.

I am so sorry you have been put through this. I wish safety and healing for you and your family.

[This message edited by EvolvingSoul at 12:37 AM, August 15th (Friday)]


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 1:00 AM, August 15th (Friday)

Thank you EvolvingSoul, for taking the time to answer me. My H called me wanting to come home in March, and, while I told him he could not, I did say there were things he needed to do for me to consider it. He spent the next 3.5 months being transparent and answering my questions and telling me he was waiting for me. However, about a month and a half or two months ago, he slowly began changing. Being secretive about what he was doing on the weekends he didn't have the kids (because I was not sharing my activities with him), stopped answering questions, saying he didn't feel safe because I was still so angry and that we would discuss it when I was ready to go to MC. And then about 3 weeks ago, my son's baseball party was at one if the parents' house and he left 2 hours after everyone else, while he hung out with her and her kids and our son played with her's. Very familiar scenario to the beginning of his affair. And then came the phone. He did not feel he should have to show it to me, as my last few texts to him were not very encouraging. I am not stupid, regardless of what he likes to think. I know there is someone else and he thinks he can string me along until our divorce and then try to win me back and not lose more money. He was still telling me he was waiting for me and he loves me and I will see it soon. I know these are lies. I initiated NC and have held on to it going on a week now, and it is actually easier than I thought it would be. Still hard, but not as bad as I expected. I feel like he fooled me for 4 months and I don't understand what his angle was! He even started IC once we started communicating, but still could not answer my questions any deeper that 'I don't know'! I am hurt all over again because he gave me hope after he treated me so horribly during the affair, DDay and the 2 months following. I don't understand how I did not know the depths of his manipulations and selfishness in the 18 years we were together! I had no idea what a great liar he is. I am glad I found out before I took him back and got in even deeper. Unbelievable!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
RomanticInnocenc
Member
Member # 43041
Default  Posted: 4:31 AM, August 15th (Friday)

I am struggling at the moment with some of the things WH wrote to affair person. I was pregnant at the time of his affair and found out 8 days after the birth. Just before Christmas WH wrote to ow that he would leave me for her, she had asked for NC for a while and he was panicking. During no contact which included the birth of our son and the 8 days after his birth, WH wrote her an email a day (did not send them apparently) and in them promised her the world, said things like she should have been the mother of his first child.

WH was apparently totally disconnected from me when writing these things. He maintains that he continued to love me throughout the affair and writing those things was about saying something out there so she would want to continue feeding him the ego kibbles.

Can anyone help me to understand how that is possible, I get that it's most likely dissociation and compartmentalisation on WH's part... I guess I'm looking to see if others did this as well. To me this is horrifying and I can't even imagine being capable of doing it. Please, anything that might help would be appreciated!


Me: BS 31
WH: 29 (theseseatsRtaken)
DS: 6 months old
Together 10 years, married 2.
DD1: 8th of Jan 2014
DD2: 10th of Jan 2014
NC: 8th of Jan
In hopeful R!

Posts: 308 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 7:10 AM, August 15th (Friday)

TGNM, theseseatsRtaken, something: thanks so much for sharing! I did al little bit of checking on the beginning bit I now have to remind myself to do it. And the few times I do I feel really bad doing it. Just can't shake that feeling, but your comments have made me a little more comfortable. I should not feel ashamed for doing it, it's normal and does not make me a bad, controlling person.

My WW made me feel really bad about this in the beginning and would say things like "if we are to remain together we need to do so on equal terms - why should different rules apply to us? Also i need to protect the integrity of the friends who help and support me through this". She even once told one of our closest friends, whom we have told about the A, that she better erase texts and emails on HER phone when she and WW were communicating about the A as she knew I was checking up on WW's phone/emails. The thing for me is that while I NEVER would have had any issues with my WW checking my email etc. in the past (which she did every now and then - likely because she was projecting her own unfaithfulness on me) I now suddenly have a stronger need of privacy. Not that I have anything at all to hide, but I'd rather she didn't read all my posts on this forum for example. Any other waywards out there willing to weigh in?


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
Lostcat
Member
Member # 43940
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, August 15th (Friday)

WW here. My BH has become more secretive about his phone since we are in R. TBH it does worry me sometimes, but I don't feel that I can say anything. My phone and computer etc are all available to him whenever he wants.

I caught a glimpse of a text he'd sent to his IC the other day - I think he doesn't want to share this kind of thing with me at the moment and I have to accept it. For me it's part of what I have to do. Maybe later when we are working more on our M itself rather than just R (does that make sense?) it's something we'll talk about. For now there are plenty of other more pressing issues IMO.


Me WW 40
BH 38
2 kids 4 & 7
DDay 06/01/13, false R til 01/06/14
S til 03/23/14, now in hopeful R
So grateful for this chance

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2014
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, August 15th (Friday)

RD75,

Early on I thought I was entitled to 2-way transparency, but that was because I was just projecting my fears about a revenge A.

My BW is entitled to privacy because she needs some safe places where she can explore her pain, her feelings about me and what I've done, and what her evolving plans for the future might be. She has to be free and safe to explore all that. If I'm snooping into her stuff, it's just going to make her feel even less secure.

She did agree to allow me privacy of my journal where I can explore my feelings safely. Initially she did read it without asking, and it just made her upset--mainly because she would only read a paragraph or two of my entry and throw it down in anger before reading the whole passage. It wasn't helping her or me. Still, I will periodically volunteer some of what I write in my journal, reading her parts, summarizing others, so she has an idea of where I'm at emotionally. She needs to know that I'm healing and making progress on the root of "why?" I suspect that she is worried that I'm using my journal as a place where I can pine for my AP, but that's not the case at all. I use my journal to explore questions about what's going on inside me, try to understand what's going on inside her, and to keep notes on what I should be doing or how I should change my way of thinking in order to heal. Often the questions I wrestle with in my journal are the basis of my posts on the Wayward forum.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
veronique12
Member
Member # 42185
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, August 15th (Friday)

This is a quote from a response to the AP = "bad" person post in Wayward. I'd love (f)WS perspectives:

I want to comment on a post where someone basically said what you did was "DISGUSTING". I 100% disagree. Sure, cheap sex with a crackhead prostitute is disgusting. But intimacy, sex, lovemaking, or whatever you choose to call it between two people who care about each other is the most beautiful human experience possible in this world. Even if the participants aren't married, even if they are married to other people.

Do most WS's actually believe this after they have gotten some distance and perspective (after they've defogged)? I know that many who are actively involved in an A rationalize their actions by calling them loving and caring, because that way they are minimizing the inherent selfishness and cruelty of their actions. But this comment sort of floored me. The poster says he has had NC for about 8 months though has had no DDay, so I assume his spouse never found out. But it got me wondering about whether this is a common perception among those who have had a DDay. Do you believe that the sex you had with your AP was a beautiful, positive, good experience?


BW: me (38)
WH: 43
OW: false "friend"
D-Day: 11/29/13 (4 month EA discovered); 12/19/13 (discovered was also PA); TT thru 2/14
Married: 2001; Together for nearly 20 years
2 beautiful young kids

Posts: 507 | Registered: Jan 2014
fst86411
Member
Member # 41644
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, August 15th (Friday)

V12,
I saw that too and was blown away... just want to let you know that your not alone.

I do have question for the male AP out there willing to answer.

When you were in your affair with a WW, did she ask you to meet her BH?

If so did you, and what was your thought process behind it?


Met 1997
Married 2002
D-Day July 8, 2012

Who knows what went on?


Posts: 63 | Registered: Dec 2013
RawDeal75
Member
Member # 42495
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, August 15th (Friday)

Thanks Lostcat, I get what you are saying about R and M, and I think I agree. But in the short term, during R I don't see full transparency being a two-way street, at least not for me, at least not right now.

Good point about the journal TGNM. That was one of the first things I told my WW during discussions about openness - that if she wanted to ever keep a journal she could be 100% sure I would never try to read it. She doesn't keep one to the best of my knowledge. And on a couple of occations she has even mentioned she's "afraid to write a journal" because she thinks I would read it. This really bugs me now that I think about it... Why would she say that? Sound like a form of manipulation to me, a way of making me feel bad about the little controlling I do... :-(


Me: BH, 39. Her: WW, 39. Two kids: 3&5
Together 21 yrs. Married 13 yrs.

D-day #2 Jan 18, 2014: 12 month EA/PA (AP#3)+ admission of 5 month EA/PA in 1994 (AP#1).
D-day #1 May 2001: 2 month EA/PA (AP#2)


Posts: 54 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Europe
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 5:11 PM, August 15th (Friday)

veronique12
Do most WS's actually believe this after they have gotten some distance and perspective (after they've defogged)?

No. And I had a LTA with someone I'd known for 20 years. I cared about him. Occasionally I might have called it semi-intimate. But post fog saying it was the most beautiful human experience is beyond outrageous.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, August 15th (Friday)

veronique,

The response I put in the Wayward forum to that fellow was the toned-down, trying not to get banned version. I think he has had to face no consequences for his actions and has no real understanding of the evil that comes from infidelity. That guy was in deep denial and I don't think that he was representative of Waywards who are truly remorseful and doing the work.

I suspect that thread is somewhat subdued after that cowardly comment because the thread was already flagged three times and the mods were on him.
I'm still pretty mad about his post. He attempted to invalidate the experience of every Betrayed Spouse ever with his unicorn fart, skittle eating self justifying BS and he did it after you were all locked out of the thread. Go on, ask me how I really feel.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 8:27 PM, August 15th (Friday)

But it got me wondering about whether this is a common perception among those who have had a DDay.
HELL NO!!!!!!!!.

That guy was in deep denial and I don't think that he was representative of Waywards who are truly remorseful and doing the work.
I almost feel sorry for him, what must the rest of his life look like if he can maintain that level of delusion for so long.


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
lilylilith
Member
Member # 44240
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, August 17th (Sunday)

Thanks to all of the WS who post on this thread. It makes my heart swell to see so much compassion on this forum.

My question is: How does it make you feel coming home not knowing what kind of mood your BS may be in? My mood swings are crazy - and I'm assuming normal at only 2-mos from D-day - and I'm wondering how this is affecting my H.

I mentioned it to him and he said something really sweet and encouraging about how lucky he is to "get to" come home, regardless of what's waiting for him on the other side of the door. But he didn't say anything about how it makes him feel otherwise. I know I shouldn't care about the outcome, but some days I'm seriously concerned he won't want to keep coming home to this new version of his crazy-emotional wife. Any other insight from WS's?


Me: BW
D-Day: 6/23/14

Posts: 90 | Registered: Jul 2014
RomanticInnocenc
Member
Member # 43041
Default  Posted: 10:34 PM, August 17th (Sunday)

Any waywards at all have some insight into my above question? I'd really appreciate it!


Me: BS 31
WH: 29 (theseseatsRtaken)
DS: 6 months old
Together 10 years, married 2.
DD1: 8th of Jan 2014
DD2: 10th of Jan 2014
NC: 8th of Jan
In hopeful R!

Posts: 308 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Australia
SlowUptake
Member
Member # 40484
Default  Posted: 7:08 AM, August 18th (Monday)

@RomanticInnocenc

To me this is horrifying and I can't even imagine being capable of doing it.
Don't know how much help this is, since my form of cheating didn't involve 'declarations of luuuurve'.
Here's the thing, you as a sane, healthly person can't fathom these seriously screwed up actions.
To understand the actions you would have to be as unhealthy as a wayward. I look back at the things I did and cannot believe I was capable of doing them, they just don't make sense, although at the time they did.
It drives me bonkers, I can only imagine how bonkers it drives a BS.

@lilylilith

To be honest, some days I dread walking in the front door.
Then I compare my dread to my BS's pain. No contest.
Your WS sounds like he's got the right attitude. A remorseful WS should be grateful their arse isn't out the door and they have been given a chance to redeem themselves.
On the bad days, you suck it up. On the good days you rejoice


Me:WS,50+
Her:BS,50+ (WantToWakeUp)
Married 33yrs
Dday Dec 2009

"Do not say a little in many words but a great deal in a few." Pythagoras

There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.


Posts: 390 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Limbo in Oz
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, August 18th (Monday)

lilylilith,

I feel lucky to come home to my BW each day. Each day with her is a gift, regardless of her mood. I destroyed her and our marriage. Each day is a chance to help us heal, for which I am truly grateful.

My BW is a saint. It's been 5 months since DDay, and though I have felt the anger in her words many times, she has really unleashed it at me only a handful of times that I can recall. I know I deserve all of it and more. Listening to her and supporting her through the emotional roller coaster is an important part of the healing process.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 10:30 AM, August 18th (Monday)

RomanticInnocenc,

I said and did a lot of things for my AP as a form of maintenance. If I fed her ego kibbles, she would feed me.

She would get insanely jealous of time I would spend with my BW and family, especially date nights and getaways with my BW. I felt like I had to send appeasing messages to her to douse her flaming crazies. If I was sufficiently contrite, sending enough messages to her to "prove" that I was really with her instead of my BW, professing my loyalty to her and reminding her that I was only staying with my BW because of the money and the kids, her rage would simmer down.

AP was often a huge distraction from enjoying my family. A number of times I said to myself, "This isn't worth it." But... I never walked away. I kept doing it. Why? I was hooked on the ego kibbles.

The language of addiction I think applies well to what I was feeling. I was (and still am) a broken man, and like an addict, I chose to medicate my brokenness with something self-destructive. I'd get a brief high, thinking this was what I needed to feel better, utterly disconnected from the reality that I was actually making worse. Getting that ego kibble, that high, kept me coming back for more. All the maintenance I did was ensuring my supply of ego kibbles.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, August 18th (Monday)

RomanticInnocenc
I would give you the same response that ThatGuyNoMore gave. Especially
I felt like I had to send appeasing messages to her to douse her flaming crazies.

My AP and I took turns being the crazy needy one. As time goes by, you have to way over compensate to get back to your happy place. For example my AP did not have children and if mine came up (I tried very hard not to have that happen) it would tail spin him into talking about what *our* pretend children would be like. I would participate in these talks, even coming up with pretend names for the pretend kids. It was absolute lunacy, but by doing that we detracted from the original subject (my REAL children and our family life). It's hard to imagine, but the goal was never to actually plan to have children together or berate our current spouse or children, it was simply to distract ourselves from our real lives.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
veronique12
Member
Member # 42185
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, August 18th (Monday)

I was really happy to see your response in wayward, NoGoodUsername. At first I thought wow, what a fogged out (to put it gently) WS, but then I guess I was wondering what if other fWS's secretly feel that way. I guess he hit a nerve b/c my fear is that my H still secretly feels something good for his ex-AP, although he says he feels nothing but disgust. I figured others wouldn't have to hide their true feelings so I thought I'd ask.

Thanks familyfirst and slowuptake for your perspectives too!


BW: me (38)
WH: 43
OW: false "friend"
D-Day: 11/29/13 (4 month EA discovered); 12/19/13 (discovered was also PA); TT thru 2/14
Married: 2001; Together for nearly 20 years
2 beautiful young kids

Posts: 507 | Registered: Jan 2014
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 4:37 PM, August 18th (Monday)

lilylilith asked:

How does it make you feel coming home not knowing what kind of mood your BS may be in?

It makes me feel very insecure and scared. I suspect a little like what I made my wife feel like by having an affair.

I can relate to what your husband said about still getting to come home to one's wife. Still, it's very frightening not knowing what one day to the next will bring. Keeping it firmly in mind that I caused the problems helped a lot when we went through this. It did scare the hell out of me, though.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 12:15 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I have posted a lot on this sight so you may know a little bit of my story. I'm sure it is not unique in any way, except that it is MY story. We are all in pain and tryin to survive this shit storm. My STBXH called me in March after being with whoreface for 2 months. I had filed for divorce the week after DDay, as 'he had made his choice' (words his mother told my mother). He was crying and promising me anything if he could come home. I did not let him come home, but told him if he worked on some things, it might be a possibility. We started talking every day and even participated in a little bit of hysterical bonding (I know, not my smartest move). I tied myself up in knots, reading everything I could about positive stories of reconciliation and even sent him articles I found. I wanted to have a happy ending. But, I was still not sure how I could respect myself and stay with this man who, not only cheated, but did not fight for me. Here he was, promising me transparency and the dream of a stronger marriage. He told me he only wanted me, I was his soul mate and he would wait for me to be ready. He did not like my timetable (a year), but eventually agreed to it. He answered my questions as best he could (he had a lot of trouble 'remembering' things) and started IC.
Fast forward to the middle of July, the transparency stopped, and the secrets started. We went to a pool party for my son's baseball team. It was thrown at the house of one if the parents (female). I took DD3 home and DS9 stayed with asshat, who would bring him home. He stayed at the woman's house for 2 hours after I left. Everyone else had also left. It was just my son, her and her kids and asshat. Very familiar scene. I was not happy and told him so. Those kinds of 'play dates' were not ok with me. He defended his actions. In the meantime he had stopped answering all questions, telling me we would discuss it when I was ready for MC. I was getting angrier and not healing. The longer it went, the less secure he made me feel. The final straw came when I asked to see his phone one night. He refused, siting my last few angry texts as the reason for refusing. I am not stupid. Slow maybe, but now stupid!! I know by now there is someone else. He denies it repeatedly and calls me to tell me he loves me and wants to make it work and would take all of my pain and put it on himself if he could, and still wants to do MC. And expects me to believe all of this. In the meantime, he had used my words against me saying, 'I thought you were going to do you and I was going to do me and then see what happens'. Well, doing me meant working on me and I guess doing him meant doing whoever he can until I make up my mind! The same day he called me to 'reassure' me if his love, he came over to drop off my money and treated me so coldly. It was so familiar to DDay. And he was still denying someone else. But I know there is. He's not fooling me and I'm not looking for reassurance. He's lying, I know he is lying, and he knows I know he is lying. AND HE IS STILL LYING!!!! WTF?!?! I have invoked NC and he has been more than happy to oblige. I only text him about kids and financials and he doesn't even text me back. He does not call the kids between visits to check on them. So suddenly, we are once again out of sight, out of mind. It is like Affair, part 2. I'm not sure what I am looking for here. I have decided D is the only way to go. He is not strong enough for me. I guess I am just looking for feedback. WTF was his motivation for telling me he still wants to make it work, just to do a 180 hours later?! And should I be prepared in case he tries to come back and tries to pull the R card again? I feel I will be stronger if he does, but I want to be ready. Or is he tired of 'playing the game' and I can move forward without worrying he is going to try to swoop in again? Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
EvolvingSoul
Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 1:35 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Hi there RomanticInnocenc,

My experience does not exactly parallel that of your WS, but my perspective might still be of use to you. I was one that, on D-day, sincerely believed that I loved two men. That AP was a good person. That we were just people who fell in love at the wrong time and place. Star-crossed, soulmates, you get the idea. I seriously believed that I would be forever devastated if I had to say goodbye to AP or my BS. I refused to make an immediate choice, stayed on the fence for six months and took another couple months to craft and send a NC letter that BS and I could both agree on.

The things I thought then are cringe-inducing to me now. I never broke NC physically but I did not, in the early days, see anything wrong with writing to AP in my journal. I was being honest with my BS that I was ambivalent. I did not understand at the time that there is a difference between being honest and acting with integrity. I did not understand the nature of infidelity and how lying to everyone, including myself, had really changed my brain. So I was able to write things like "I am so afraid to want to want to stop loving you." and "I don't know how I can handle never seeing you again." and (cringing now) "we will meet again across time and space". Those aren't exact quotes but sum up the kinds of things I was writing and actually believing at the time I wrote them.

I guess I am telling you this to let you know that even though I meant those things at the time that I wrote them, I can see now that I had a very limited ability for evaluating the basis of my feelings and deciding if they were reasonable or valid. I conflated the intensity of my feelings and their validity. I really was terrified of losing one of my sources of good feelings. But it did not have anything to do with genuine, adult love for AP.

Now. Did I love my BS during the time I was writing those things? Did I love my BS at all during the time I was imposing a blatant EA on our lives (4 years) and then a hidden PA (3.5 years)? You know, as I have come to understand what it actually means to love someone in an adult way, no. I did not. I loved him the way a child loves. I saw him as a source of stability and security and a way to help get my basic emotional and physical needs met. I felt genuine affection for him but ultimately, when it came down to it, I was willing to get my needs met at his very great expense. As a child, it is normal to expect that from the people who love us. That is the natural order of things. As an adult, we have to be willing for things to go in the other direction. That is the piece I lacked, and have had to develop.

So could your husband have really loved you during the time he wrote those things? I guess it depends on what your definition of love is. It is absolutely possible that he was trying to keep everything from blowing up. It's also possible he meant those things at the time he said them. I think the really important thing is whether he is willing to 1) be honest about what he was actually thinking and feeling during that time, even if it risks his chance of reconciliation to do so and 2) identify and fix the thought processes that resulted in his integrity train jumping the track so that he doesn't ever do this again to you or to anyone else.

I am so sorry that you have been put through this. May you find peace and healing.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
EvolvingSoul
Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 5:20 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Hello again Hopeful74,
WTF was his motivation for telling me he still wants to make it work, just to do a 180 hours later?! And should I be prepared in case he tries to come back and tries to pull the R card again? I feel I will be stronger if he does, but I want to be ready. Or is he tired of 'playing the game' and I can move forward without worrying he is going to try to swoop in again?
I don't think anyone can tell you what his specific motivation was. He is obviously having difficulty making good decisions and is not acting with integrity. Since you are divorcing it might be a good idea for you to start detaching rather than trying to figure him out. By all means you should have a plan in place should he come back for another round, and it should be based on what you think is best for you and your family. Whether or not he will make another run at you is anyone's guess.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
EvolvingSoul
Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 5:38 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Hello there lilylilith
How does it make you feel coming home not knowing what kind of mood your BS may be in?
This is something that was a part of getting used to the new normal. In my case, it is not knowing what kind of state of mind BS is going to be in when he gets home from work. He works overnights, so he's getting home usually about the time I am waking up. Sometimes I try to peek out the kitchen window and get a read on his posture and facial expression before he gets to the door.

As someone who formerly viewed relationships as sources of feelings more than anything else, it was at first very hard for me to adjust to the variability of the outward signs of his injury. Some days just terribly sad and sobbing. Some days angry and spitting fire. Some days just flat.

IC helped me a lot because I have learned to view people as people instead of just sources of feelings for me. I can separate the feelings from the person if that makes any sense. The other thing that has helped has been to learn some techniques for dealing with difficult feelings in the moment they are happening. Meditation type stuff.

You are kind to be thinking of the stress your WS might be experiencing because of your mood swings. In my experience even just acknowledging it might help mitigate some of the damage and help your WS be more patient with them. I know the times my BS has said to me that he knows he's all over the place and thanked me for handling it without melting down, I have very much appreciated it. I guess because it acknowledges that as sucky as I was, my need for a secure emotional environment is legitimate too. That doesn't mean he is going to be meeting it at his own expense, or rather I would prefer that he doesn't. But it does help to have it acknowledged as a legitimate need.

May you find peace and healing.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
Hopeful74
Member
Member # 44003
Default  Posted: 11:08 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Thank you EvolvingSoul! I appreciate your feedback. And wonderful advice. I do need to detach and focus more on myself, and I know this. I am still looking for some kind of answers that he, much less anyone else, is unable to give me.


Me: BW 39 Him:WH 37 (M)12 years; (T)18 years -2 DD: 16; 3; 1 DS: 9
Separated, headed for Divorce-he's not strong enough for me
'Everytime you get up and get back in the race, one more small piece of you starts to fall into place.' -

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Hampton, VA
Tigaress
Member
Member # 43954
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Hi all - I'm a betrayed wife and people keep telling me that my big mistake was that I never set boundaries. For example, I never questioned it when my husband told me he had to 'work late' even if that meant he didn't even make it to the one family dinner per week. Many times I heard from other guys 'my wife would never allow that' and every time I was stunned. I'm really struggling to come up with a plan how 'boundary setting' could look like in case my husband and I are deciding to try reconciliation and I'd really appreciate if some of you could tell me what kind of boundaries worked out for you? The more concrete and hands on the better. Also, what consequences would follow boundary violations? Thank you!

Posts: 172 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: New York
kansas1968
Member
Member # 32214
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I reading hundreds of posts as well as dealing with my own situation I have a question for the waywards. If you are or think you are in love with your affair partner, how do you still make love to your wife or husband. Do you just do it so that it doesn't seem suspicious? Do you ever think about giving your spouse an STD?


Me - BS
Him - FWS
DD - December 14, 2010
Married 43 years 1/14/2011
Affair lasted 7+ years
Affair had been over for 2 years before I found out. OW sent me a letter.

Posts: 1314 | Registered: May 2011 | From: Kansas
lilylilith
Member
Member # 44240
Default  Posted: 6:28 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

Thank you SlowUptake, ThatGuyNoMore, NoGoodUsername, and EvolvingSoul - I really appreciate the insight.

I understand that is now part of our new normal, and we're both grasping with that. No running to the door with kisses and affection when he returns home - at least for the time being. I feel like I can only begin to forgive him if I can humanize him, feel empathy, recognize his hurt and pain through all of this too. But he has read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal..." and I think he's afraid to show me too much so as not to take the healing process away from me. If that makes any sense. Again, thank you for your kind words and sharing your experiences.


Me: BW
D-Day: 6/23/14

Posts: 90 | Registered: Jul 2014
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

lilylilith,

When I come home from work, I offer my BW a kiss regardless of what her outward mood might be. I do not assume that because she has a mad face that she doesn't want me. I made her an angry mess, so it's unfair for me to dodge her when she is angry. By offering, I've given her the opportunity to say "Yes" rather than assume she will say "No." This is important because it shouldn't be up to my BW to initiate physical affection. I should be the one reaching out and taking the risk of rejection. By that one simple act of offering her a kiss, it shows that I love her and want her regardless of her mood, and it just might help change her mood.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 9:44 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

kansas1968,

I continued to make love with my BW during my affair, but it was very infrequent. I wasn't putting in the effort to make my BW want me. After a while, I just stopped initiating sex with my BW because I was tired of the rejection. Of course she rejected me because I didn't do the work. Duh!

About STD's... sometimes I really worried about that to the point of depression. I got tested a couple of times over the years, but not as frequently as I should have. And I didn't consistently practic safe sex. I look back on that now, I'm just sick thinking about how I risked my BW's life and health. I was fortunate that I never brought home an STD, but that was dumb luck. Big emphasis on dumb.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 11:13 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

Tigaress,

Boundaries and accountability are important methods for your WS to re-establish trust.

Some basic boundaries that I observe:
1. NC with AP.
2. No "unhealthy" friendships, like those with guys that encourage A's, or with women who have known boundary issues as well, or with women I feel I may develop a boundary issue with.
3. Avoid one-on-one situations with women. That includes private messages, emails, and texts.
4. No flirtatious comments directed at anyone but my BW.
5. No lying, no half-truths, no omissions.
6. Also being accountable for my time is a form of boundary setting. I send selfies showing I am where I'm supposed to be if I'm running errands, attending civic meetings, or going to the gym. I call home from a land line before I leave work. If for some reason I'm going to be late, I call and send a selfie to prove my whereabouts.

I'll do anything I can to help my BW feel safe.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

Tigaress --

Don't beat yourself up over not seeing the signs. You believed that your WS was a good and honest person, and never had any inkling he would stray.

I feel awful when I remember the lies that I told my BW, and how much she trusted me to believe them. I know that she feels shaken looking back, too. It's just a measure of how far from that wayward thinking you were. That is a good thing.

I don't know if we officially set boundaries. I tried to do what BW asked, and only do things that make her feel safe. ThatGuyNoMore got them right. NC is non-negotiable. Being transparent, and always accounting for time and location are too. No flirting or personal contact with women, no spending nights out with guys unless they are truly friends of the marriage.

I wanted to add that for most of us truly remorseful waywards, these are not punishment. My boundaries are ones that I have mostly set myself. I don't want to do any of those old things. I know that they have this possibility down the road to lead to a point where I could put myself in a position to go to the place I was during my A. Even if don't stray, I know that I used to be really unhappy during my A's. I don't want to do anything that could lead me to becoming that unhappy again. It's kind f like knowing a food will make you sick. Sure, one taste may not make you full on sick, but why tempt yourself?


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Tigaress
Member
Member # 43954
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

Thank you ThatGuyNoMore and somethingremorse! I think I have an understanding now what kind of boundaries are necessary to start re-building trust. And even more important I see that my husband needs to develop his list of boundaries himself and take responsibility for it. So many times have I stepped in and done things for him, I won't make this mistake with the boundaries after his affair. He wants a second chance and I'm not at all sure if I can get over it but I'm willing to try. Thank you :-)

Posts: 172 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: New York
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

If you are or think you are in love with your affair partner, how do you still make love to your wife or husband. Do you just do it so that it doesn't seem suspicious? Do you ever think about giving your spouse an STD?

I just made love to my spouse so it didn't seem suspicious. I decreased the frequency as much as I could and I wasn't as "into it" as I used to be, but at the time there were no suspicions that it was due to an A. It did cause problems, but not raise suspicions. I just did it - sometimes I wanted to and enjoyed it, sometimes I just faked it, whatever it took. I know that sounds harsh but it's true.

As for the STD question, my AP was certain he had none and I believed him. I didn't worry about bringing home and STD because of this. Looking back he could have been lying through his teeth but at the time I didn't even consider that possibility. I did get tested at my next pap after the A and was clean so I lucked out.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 1:38 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

Do you believe that the sex you had with your AP was a beautiful, positive, good experience?

I have mixed feelings about this. I'm still in the "fog" a little bit so that might be why. I don't think it was beautiful or positive. The sex was very good and we connected on an intimate level, as much as I don't want to admit it, yet I feel it was a dirty, shameful act so that pretty much takes away from all the "good" I could see from it.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

How does it make you feel coming home not knowing what kind of mood your BS may be in?

To be honest I will admit that I am not yet a truly remorseful WW though I'm trying my hardest to be. Because of that, my honest answer is it's terrible. I hate going home because I don't know what kind of mood I'm going to get. As it gets closer to the end of the work day I actually get anxiety about going home because of it. I don't expect anyone to feel sorry for me - I know the RIGHT answer is what your husband said and I bet most remorseful waywards really do feel that way so I don't doubt what you were told, just for me - someone who isn't yet really remorseful, it's not a good feeling.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

kansas1968
If you are or think you are in love with your affair partner, how do you still make love to your wife or husband. Do you just do it so that it doesn't seem suspicious? Do you ever think about giving your spouse an STD?

I thought I loved AP, I was still making love with my H. I can't make a blanket statement that I was only with my H to quell suspicion but that did occur from time to time. Every every week or night had a new set of variables. Sometimes I was feeling close to my H, even wanting to be overly generous in bed perhaps out of guilt. For quite a while my sex drive was on high and I was very happy to be with both men. How I felt varied greatly throughout the A. Sorry, I guess that's not much help.

About STDs..., I worried a lot about getting pregnant, but never about STDs. AP assured me he had never strayed before and I had blinding faith in whatever he said. I went in for my annual OB exam and my dr asked me if I had any new partners. If this is a common question to married people I'll never know. I told her the truth and she insisted I get tested for everything. I told her it was unnecessary because I knew my AP was safe. She then told me even if that was true, I didn't know if his spouse was safe or who she might have been/is currently with. I remember being completely confused. She almost had to draw it out on paper like you would for a 7th grader. I don't know if it's because I was so far removed from dating and sleeping with other people or so completely detached from reality that this really never occurred to me. Suddenly I was overwhelmed with guilt. Never in a million years did I think I could harm my H in this way. Thankfully all tests were negative. In all the ways I harmed H, in my mind this is the worst and most unforgiveable. I've read on SI before that "the WS cared more about their pleasure than the BS's health". For me that's not true, I just didn't think. period.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

For quite a while my sex drive was on high and I was very happy to be with both men.


This was very true for me as well at some points of my A.


ETA: my OB/GYN always asks if I've had any new sexual partners at each visit so it's normal for at least some docs.

[This message edited by StartingFreshNow at 2:53 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)]


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
veronique12
Member
Member # 42185
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

When I come home from work, I offer my BW a kiss regardless of what her outward mood might be.

This is something that my fWH has been pushing too, kissing every time we say goodbye and hello. Sometimes when I'm triggery I don't feel like kissing him, but it is very important that he shows me he wants to connect with me. I'm sure your W notices too, ThatGuy.


BW: me (38)
WH: 43
OW: false "friend"
D-Day: 11/29/13 (4 month EA discovered); 12/19/13 (discovered was also PA); TT thru 2/14
Married: 2001; Together for nearly 20 years
2 beautiful young kids

Posts: 507 | Registered: Jan 2014
byefornow
Member
Member # 41992
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, August 22nd (Friday)

I am looking for book recommendations for my WH and myself. We have read “how to help your spouse…” and “Not Just Friends” and “How Can I ever trust you again”. all of which have come highly recommended and have been helpful.
I saw this book, “Close Calls, What Adulterers want you to know about protecting your marriage” and I wondered if anyone has read it. It doesn’t get very many reviews online but the ones it does get are pretty positive.
I am searching for more books like “Not Just Friends”. I think my WH got the most out of that book as he saw his pattern of behavior and could relate. That is why the above book about “Close Calls” caught my eye.
Does anyone have any suggestions for books similar to Not Just Friends to help the WH see patterns in their behavior? Has anyone read the book “Close Calls”?

And to answer questions before they pop up, he is in IC, I am in IC, he is trying and we are trying to work stuff out. I would not say we are in R but more in taking it day by day.


BW- me
WH - him
married over 25 years

Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
SandAway
Member
Member # 37775
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, August 22nd (Friday)

Byfornow,

'Emotional Infidelity' by Gary Neuman was very helpful to me. Its along the same lines as 'Not Just Friends'.


fWW
BH Tred
M 16yrs
DDay Nov. 2011

Guns don't kill people; Affairs kill people


Posts: 437 | Registered: Dec 2012
EvolvingSoul
Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, August 22nd (Friday)

Hi there byefornow, (okay as a sentence, that reads a little strangely!)

Even though it is not a book about infidelity per se, the book Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg was and still is very helpful to me. I think the reason is that language and how I use it to communicate can be a sort of map for how I think about things on a deeper level. My choices seem to map to the same thing. This book's way of thinking about language was completely new to me and I think it has been instrumental in giving me tools for the deep rewiring of my brain that was and still is needed.

Sorry you find yourself having to ask these questions at all. Peace and healing to you from this EvolvingSoul.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
SoLostStillNumb
Member
Member # 44248
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, August 23rd (Saturday)

I'm not really sure what I'm looking for exactly, but I feel a need to talk to another WS and get their perspective on my situation.

I don't want to go into so many details as it'll probably make this post super long, but on DDay I though WH was in an EA. He denied it of course, but agreed to stop talking to OW and to work on our marriage through professionals. We both agreed to go to MC and IC. A few weeks later, I found out the EA was actually PA. He again denied the extent of the PA (just kissing.) At that point he told me he he isn't sure what he wants anymore and thinks we need to really go talk to a professional to help us figure out what to do. I agreed that we needed help as I had been saying it for a few weeks already (plus several times throughout our marriage.)

I told him if we were going to MC, he would need to cut all contact with OW first. He refused. I ended up calling her myself and telling her the truth because he was lying to her too. She didn't know he was married. WH went ballistic. Was extremely upset that I had contact her and told her he was married.

The next day WH basically told me he wanted a D. He spent that evening saying things like "I don't love you anymore."
"I was never 100% committed to our marriage."
"I've always had cold feet since the wedding and it never left me."
"I don't want to settle down."
"I am not attracted to you anymore and haven't been for a couple years."
"I'm not happy and haven't been happy for a long time."
"I want a divorce."

I of course was and still am heartbroken. I never saw this coming, and asked if there was any way he would reconsider and perhaps R. He said "No, there is no way. I know this is going to be hard on both of us, but I can't give you what you want and I'm not happy so we need to D." He also said that that he felt we had a lot of issues with our marriage. The affair was a result of all the issues we had and isn't the main reason why our marriage is over. He said even if he hadn't had an affair, he would have said something in the next couple of years about how unhappy he was anyways and the marriage would have ended either way.

I thought we were headed for D, so he left the apartment, I packed up my things and put everything in storage until I could figure out where to live and all. I went home to stay with my family during the time. His family was devastated by the news of our separation. WH parents asked him to talk to someone from our religious community. WH ended up talking to one of the pastors from the town he grew up in and actually flew out to meet with this man.

A few weeks later, after I had implemented NC with WH. We weren't even talking about finances (no kids either.) The pastor calls me and tells me that WH wants to try and work things out. He said WH wants to talk to me and see if we can move forward from this. I'm so confused and hesitant about the whole thing. I end up having a phone conversation with WH. The conversation felt really cold and disconnected, but WH said that he wants to talk with me. Have conversations about us and our issues and see where it leads too. I asked him why all of a sudden he wants do talk about all this when before he made it cleat that he wanted a D. Does he really want this marriage? He clearly said that he isn't sure what he wants still, but he does want to sit and talk and see where this goes.

I told him I would think about it and eventually agreed to at least sitting down and seeing what he has to say. WH and I haven't seen each other in almost 2 months, so there has be quite a disconnect. We're meeting in 2 weeks with this pastor (who has experience in MC, IC and dealing with infidelity, so I don't doubt his qualifications) but I'm just super nervous about getting my hopes up about R. I have a feeling WH is just doing all this to sit well with his parents as well as feeling a bit more redeemed in his faith, but I can't help but hope he might be coming out of a fog? I haven't had any signs of transparency with him. I'm not living with him anymore, so I can't see where he goes or who he talks to. I have no access to cellphone records (he changed all the passwords shortly after we separated) and he has not reached out to me at all during our separation. Our anniversary was last week as well and I got no communication from him.

He had sent a NC email to the OW, but there is no way for me to verify that he is still in contact with her or not. The pastor reassured me that WH has told him several times that he is no longer in contact with OW, and does not want to continue his relationship with her but seriously, no way to confirm that. I know this is all speculation and talk and there is no way to confirm anything unless he shows me through his actions that he wants to try and make this work. I've thought about what I want, where the lines in the sand will be for me if we R, what the boundaries will be, etc.

I guess I'm just wondering how you as a WS see all this? Does it sound like he is still in the fog and just doesn't see reality still right now? Do the chances of R look pretty slim to none after reading where we are right now? Do you think I need to do anything in preparation for meeting with WH and pastor in two weeks? Any thoughts would be much appreciated and sorry for the long post!


Me: BS 26 Him: WH 27
Married: 5 years, together 7
No kids
DDays: 6/3/14, 6/24/14, 7/2/14, 7/3/14, 9/5/14
Separated, headed for divorce
Trying to accept this nightmare is real every morning.

Posts: 190 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Currently all over
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 7:35 PM, August 23rd (Saturday)

SoLost,

I'm a WS. It sounds like your WH isn't remorseful and is only reluctantly going though with pastoral counseling. He lied to you and the OW, and who knows what he's been doing these past 2 months. Yes, he might be coming out of the fog, but he might just be trying to save his own hide. Time and actions will tell how committed he is to your M.

I can tell you from my experience, I had a pretty strong negativity bias when looking at my BW. It turned out that I was projecting a lot of garbage on her. I had a lot of self-pity, and my negativity bias just fueled it. Perhaps that's where he was coming from when he said he wanted to D initially. Who knows?

Give the counseling a chance, but also seek your own IC. And if you haven't gotten yourself legal advice, you should. It's good that you have boundaries and know what you want. If he doesn't agree, do you know what you'll do?

Good luck.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
SoLostStillNumb
Member
Member # 44248
Default  Posted: 7:51 PM, August 23rd (Saturday)

TGNM, thanks so much for your response. I appreciate so much having someone who has been through this share their experience with me.

I too feel like he may just be willing to speak with me and the pastor reluctantly and to perhaps just please his parents. I had a feeling that he wasn't very remorseful given how he hasn't reached out to me at all and hasn't shown any signs of remorse, but of course I can't help but hope he will come to his senses too.

I was in IC immediately after DDay, and have stopped for a good month or so. She wasn't a good fit for me and I'm now looking for another IC. I'll have my first session next week. I'm also going to see a lawyer next week, so we'll see what info I can get from that meeting. I know WH definitely needs IC and I am willing to try R if he begins to show that he wants to go to IC and figure out his issues so we can go to MC. I'm just not sure he is aware that he even has issues that need solving.

If WH doesn't agree to the conditions, I'm not sure what I'll do. My brain tells me I should start to prepare myself to file for D, but my heart isn't ready for that yet. I'm having hard time dealing with just being in limbo. I honestly just want to know what he is thinking and how he is feeling at the moment. This period of waiting and not knowing what is going to happen next is torturous for me.


Me: BS 26 Him: WH 27
Married: 5 years, together 7
No kids
DDays: 6/3/14, 6/24/14, 7/2/14, 7/3/14, 9/5/14
Separated, headed for divorce
Trying to accept this nightmare is real every morning.

Posts: 190 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Currently all over
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 5:39 AM, August 24th (Sunday)

SoLost,

It sounds like you really want to hold onto your M, but at what cost? If your WH doesn't want to own his mess & blames you, there's no path to healing. I hope for your sake that these 2 months apart has given him time to reflect. Or maybe it's just given him more freedom to fool around. Please protect yourself so you are in a position of strength when dealing with him. If you have a plan, you'll come out ok regardless. Good luck to you.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, August 25th (Monday)

SLSN --

I am willing to try R if he begins to show that he wants to go to IC and figure out his issues

I hate to say this kind of thing as WH, but you are probably not asking enough of your WH.

I'm exaggerating a bit, but it sounds a lot like "If WH begins to start to think about maybe going to IC to see if he has any sort of problems...."

You should be willing to start R if your WH starts to produce results. That is, his daily actions need to show you that he is on his way. Not that he's fixed, because no one would ever R that way. But you need to see that he is dedicated to figuring out his problems and fixing them. You need to see that he's completely committed to making you safe. Those come from actions, not phone calls.

That doesn't mean you cannot wait for it. For now, if you want to, you can just "not D." Give that some time. But he has to convince you that R is worth a shot.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Camalus
Member
Member # 40199
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, August 25th (Monday)

Question primarily for fWWs but would also appreciate the viewpoint from fWHs
.
There were things my fWW did with the mOM. Things she always claimed were disgusting, degrading, and demeaning. Early in our marriage, I learned not to even think about those things much less ask her to consider them. To even bring them up meant I would get the cold shoulder for a few days.

She freely gave/did those very things with the mOM. Of course I about blew a gasket when I found out. Now she wants us to do those things. I’m not sure if she is trying to make amends or has found out they are not as disgusting as she had thought.

My question, how do I gently tell her I no longer have any desire or interest in doing those things? She suffers from poor self-image and I am afraid telling her I do not want to do those things will make her think I no longer find her desirable. In fact, I do still find her quite desirable and sexy.


Me–BS age 61
Her -- WS age 59
Married for 34 years
One child, 30yrs

Her 'A' 1994(?) through 1998
D-Day 7/4/2013 Yes, I didn't find out for almost 15 years... but the pain is just as bad as if she were with him last week.


Posts: 120 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Near Houston Texas
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, August 25th (Monday)

Camalus
My question, how do I gently tell her I no longer have any desire or interest in doing those things?

I'm really impressed you care not to hurt her feelings. When I was reading your question I was sure it was going to be "how could you do things with AP that you didn't do with me?" which is really hard to comprehend, let alone explain, so I will just try and comment on...
I’m not sure if she is trying to make amends or has found out they are not as disgusting as she had thought.
Your W may be trying to make amends, or she may just be trying to make new memories. For me, there's something I did with AP that I never did before. Now whenever my thoughts go to that act, it's associated with AP. To do it bigger, and better with my H would help re-write that particular mind movie. Not sure if that's relevant, I'm just presenting that as one possibility.

I think you can gently (or none gently too in light of the A) tell her that if those things were important to you, you would have brought them up many times over the years. You haven't because you no longer have a desire to do them, but you do really like doing *** and **** with her. I think it's fair to ask her if those acts are important to her. Then she will likely tell you her motivation which I would want to know if I were you.

Good luck! I think your fWW is very lucky to have someone so considerate.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
forgivingnow
Member
Member # 33549
Default  Posted: 1:41 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

When did you start being truthful, stop lying, even by omission & stop trickle truth(TT)? What made you be truthful and open? When did you start being authentic ? And how did this make you feel? Freeing? Safe to be vulnerable?


Me-BS 51
FWH-51
M 31 yrs.
Dday 3-19-11, TT 10/2011, Full truth July 2013
Strength comes from within. You can't get it from someone or go somewhere to get it. It is already here, waiting to be used when you need it most. Believe in yourself.
R

Posts: 613 | Registered: Oct 2011
SWAT70
Member
Member # 42915
Default  Posted: 2:04 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

I'm not even sure I really want to know. But it has been on my mind for several days now. I keep thinking my WW is doing the things she is "expected" to do, but she really is just bidding time until we agree its over. Have you felt that way or had that expressed to you? How do you deal with it? Sorry if that's vague and I hope it makes sense.


Me BH-45. WW-39
DD-11 DS-6 DS-3
D day was Valentines day 2014. Talk about a trigger.


Posts: 335 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: Down range
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

forgivingnow,

For me, there wasn't a clear demarcation of the end of TT from my BW's POV. About a month after DDay, I finally pulled together a timeline as best I could (I have a long history). However there were some details painful to my BW that either I forgot to tell her about or deliberately didn't mention. Both intentional and unintentional omissions count as TT to her. So as she finds new questions to ask me, I answer them fully as best I can and without hesitation, but anything new is still going to be painful for her regardless.

What made me feel free? When I finally admitted to all the ONS's, my online EA's, and the extent of my porn usage. For some reason which I don't yet grasp, I felt more ashamed of those aspects of my infidelity. Letting all that go was a surprising relief. I found Daring Greatly by Brene Brown very helpful for me as I deal with vulnerability and shame. After that, I finally started facing deeper issues. The blessing was that letting go of all that was the key to truly beginning the healing process for me. The curse was that it was a huge, ugly, stinking pile of sh*t to dump on my BW.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 1:40 PM, August 27th (Wednesday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 9:11 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

forgivingnow
When did you start being truthful, stop lying, even by omission & stop trickle truth(TT)?

Wish I could remember exactly. Maybe two months out? I gave BH my burner phone (which he didn''t know about and never would have) and came clean on a detail I''d repeatedly lied about.

What made you be truthful and open?

Guilt. It was a new sensation for me, one I''d never really experienced in life. Reconnecting with my emotions I''d walled off in childhood due to trauma is what allowed me to start becoming authentic. It did feel liberating, yes, but scary. I used to think being impervious to feelings was a superpower, but now I realize that identifying, owning, and processing one''s thoughts and feelings is where it''s at. And I haven''t earned my cape yet, not by a longshot.

SWAT70
Your worry that...

she really is just biding time until we agree its over

...is valid, and common. BH expressed this fear to me just recently, that maybe I''m just stringing him along till the kids are grown. But looking forward 10, 20, 30 years toward our kids'' graduations, weddings, grandchildren, I believe I''ll be happiest celebrating those events with BH, and that my life, all our lives, will be best spent together. That''s what got me into therapy, even in the early days when I was a delusional, foggy, blameshifting mess.

We WS are subject to the same fear, that you''re just biding time. BH confessed in MC several months ago that he feels "trapped" in the M, due to kids, etc. While it hurt to hear, because BH used to brag that he won the "wife lottery" with me, I totally get where he''s coming from, and I''m sorry my selfish, insane behavior created that thought for him. My response, though, was that I don''t feel trapped. I''m in this M because I want to be, and I''m thankful BH gave me the opportunity to stay, whatever his reasons.

I keep thinking my WW is doing the things she is "expected" to do

Maybe that''s all she knows. It''s normal, even if it''s aggravating or terrifying for our BS, for us WS to take awhile to trade our lifelong maladaptive coping mechanisms for healthy ones. My current IC employs CBT, and one of its underlying tenets is that thoughts create feelings. That''s not to be confused with "choosing" how to feel. For those of us who lack healthy coping skills, a thought (such as "he''s going to leave me!" ) creates sadness or anger because we simply have not yet learned a different way to process those thoughts.

It''s your choice, how long you want to stick around and wait for her to develop new emotional skills. In the meantime, all you can do is work on your own.

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 9:13 AM, August 27th, 2014 (Wednesday)]


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

Swat70,

I've heard that "just biding time" from my BW, and it's very discouraging. I feel like I'm working as hard as I can on me and on us. Outwardly I'm always optimistic about our chances at R and building something stronger--"out of crisis comes opportunity," and I'm careful never to let her hear me express my doubts directly because that will just reinforce her despair and, I fear, pull the plug. I do let her know that sometimes I do feel the weight of despair myself and write about it in my journal, but that's pretty much all I tell her about that feeling.

Lately her mindset has been, rather than S and D, she is just quitting in place, KWIM? She seems to be choosing this limbo state because she can't envision repairing us, but the alternative of S and D is worse. I'm hoping this isn't permanent (we're only 6 months out from DDay), and hopefully my persistence despite her bleak outlook might make a difference. I also recognize and accept that maybe there is no recovering from what I've done, but that's not going to stop me from trying. Even if she seems to have given up ("And this mess is so big / And so deep and so tall, / We cannot pick it up. / There is no way at all!"), I won't give up. I'm fighting for us. I'm fighting for her.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
forgivingnow
Member
Member # 33549
Default  Posted: 9:24 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

ThatGuyNoMore
Thank you very much for your response. Brene Brown's work has helped both of us too. I just got Daring Greatly on CD's. I also love The Gifts of Imperfection-You Guide to a Wholehearted Life.


Me-BS 51
FWH-51
M 31 yrs.
Dday 3-19-11, TT 10/2011, Full truth July 2013
Strength comes from within. You can't get it from someone or go somewhere to get it. It is already here, waiting to be used when you need it most. Believe in yourself.
R

Posts: 613 | Registered: Oct 2011
FightingBack
Member
Member # 34770
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

A question on memory. Recently, my WH "remembered" that the timeframe of his A was off. He had thought that the EA (talking after hours at the office and at bars) lasted for two years before MOW initiated sex.(oral). This continued for 2-3 years before they engaged in intercourse.

Now, he realizes that this original 4-5 year timeframe was actually less than two years. The A lasted 15 years in total.

Is it possible that he could honestly have gotten these details wrong? Why would he make up a story like that? Can memories about an affair be that much off?

Thank you


Me 53
WH 58
Married 25 years
4 children S30,D24, S23,S21
D-Day Nov. 29, 2011
15 year affair with married employee.
Together trying to make sense of it all!

Posts: 774 | Registered: Feb 2012
forgivingnow
Member
Member # 33549
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

20WrongsVs1
"Now I realize that identifying, owning and processing one's thoughts and feelings is where it's at."
That is very powerful. Both the WS & BS have to be vulnerable & open & honest & have empathy to be on the path to true intimacy.


Me-BS 51
FWH-51
M 31 yrs.
Dday 3-19-11, TT 10/2011, Full truth July 2013
Strength comes from within. You can't get it from someone or go somewhere to get it. It is already here, waiting to be used when you need it most. Believe in yourself.
R

Posts: 613 | Registered: Oct 2011
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

FightingBack,

I had a very long timeline as well. And yes, it is hard to remember clearly things that happened long ago. I can see how it would be hard for your WH to accurately pin down how long he had been carrying on prior to having intercourse with his LTAP because his "normal" for the last 10+ years was having intercourse with her.

His A and mine occurred in a bubble, separate from reality. Thus there often aren't things we can easily measure the passage of time against like you can in real life. For example, you might remember about when an event happened in your family life because Little Johnny was about 10 years old at the time. Little Johnny is outside the bubble of the A, so we don't have that measuring stick. It makes it harder to approximate. Inside the bubble, the only time that matters is making sure you get home before you get caught.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
FightingBack
Member
Member # 34770
Default  Posted: 10:33 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

ThatGuy,
Thank you. It is so difficult for me to believe this is possible, that I may jump to the logical conclusion that he is lying to me.
Your perspective causes me to step back and consider again.


Me 53
WH 58
Married 25 years
4 children S30,D24, S23,S21
D-Day Nov. 29, 2011
15 year affair with married employee.
Together trying to make sense of it all!

Posts: 774 | Registered: Feb 2012
sillyoldsod
Member
Member # 43649
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, August 27th (Wednesday)

As a BS 6 months out from D-Day I feel we're in a catch 22 situation and would welcome views from everyone, but especially WS. For info we have been separated since D-Day after I told WW to leave and she has been living on her own in a bedsit.

Basically I seem to have been doing all the work to date. I've been the one having IC, I'm the one who's bought a library of books (and gave Not Just Friends to my WW), I've been the one suggesting MC which we have attended a couple of times, I've been the one encouraging WW to have IC (which she hasn't!) etc etc. You get the picture! WW has agreed to give up a couple of Thursday evenings to attend MC (which I'm paying for )....and that's it!

I try and look at the situation empathically from my WW POV. She is still in contact with OM. She 'kind of' loves him but I think she knows deep down that there is no real future in that relationship. However she does have that emotional bond with him. She has FOO issues with abandonment (as do I) and I believe she is scared of ending it with OM in case it didn't work out with me (if she opted to come back of course) because her worst fear would be that she ends up on her jack if reconciliation failed.

I feel MC is a total waste of time when WW is still in contact with OM but I can understand why she would be scared to end the relationship. It's an impasse which I think we're really going to struggle with and I'm very much at the point, having waited patiently for 6 months where I've had enough. As someone posted on another thread 'Never push a loyal person to the point where they no longer give a damn'.

Should I rightfully ask WW to step up to the plate and be willing to take that risk and show some commitment to our marriage or am I expecting the impossible from her? If she wont go NC out of fear of the consequences what else if anything can I do?

Any suggestions?


Me - BS 52yrs
Her - WS 47yrs
1 son 19 yrs old
Him - AP 36yrs

DD - 25/02/2014 (our wedding anniversary!)
Married 19 years, together 25 years.

FOO issues or no FOO issues, mid life crisis or no mid life crisis... I'm divorcing her!


Posts: 64 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: UK
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 1:09 PM, August 27th (Wednesday)

Is it possible that he could honestly have gotten these details wrong?

I know that I did. In the middle of DDay, I thought back to the earliest sexual encounter that I could remember. It was a birthday like 2 1/2 years back. It was the only concrete date I could tie anything to. It was honestly what I could think of at the time, with so much happening. And then we didn't discuss the time frame at all.

When I sat down to write up a timeline, I remembered other details, and I did some research. Like I remember a March Madness party, and a specific band at a club. So when I started digging, I had a timeline that was three years.

I mentioned to BW in MC that I got some details wrong initially, and have corrected them in a time line. BW has not wanted to see the time line, or go through any dates and times.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, August 27th (Wednesday)

SOS
Should I rightfully ask WW to step up to the plate and be willing to take that risk and show some commitment to our marriage or am I expecting the impossible from her? If she wont go NC out of fear of the consequences what else if anything can I do?

Sure, ask her to go NC and commit to your M. Sorry, I don''t mean to make light of it, but we both already know her answer, don''t we? Throwing her out didn''t wake her up. Maybe filing for D will, that is, if you''d even care to take her back at this point.

ITA MC is a complete waste of time and money that could go toward a solicitor instead. The six months was not only more than generous to her, but I sense it''s given you a sense of clarity, and you can walk away knowing you did everything in your power.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
FightingBack
Member
Member # 34770
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, August 28th (Thursday)

Thank you Somethingremorse.


Me 53
WH 58
Married 25 years
4 children S30,D24, S23,S21
D-Day Nov. 29, 2011
15 year affair with married employee.
Together trying to make sense of it all!

Posts: 774 | Registered: Feb 2012
Imissmyhusb
Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, August 28th (Thursday)

are any WSs out there that work w their AP? How does your BS manage knowing you see AP daily?

My WH and AP r in positions that r not easily transferable. I am not workg so its not like WH can quit and fall back on my income until he finds other work. AP has more flexibility in that her BS works but she hasnt heeded his warnings (as he told me he gave her) that he would leave if she went back to the same ofc. He gave her the summer to work it out. Her time is just abt up

I hav nowhere to go and i am not movg my kids from their home, plus we all depend on WH income. So im kinda stuck. And i hate it everyday. NC is almost impossible, and purely professional communication is just as impossbl for me to verify


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 229 | Registered: Mar 2014
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, August 30th (Saturday)

Question: the first time you crossed the physical line and had sex with AP, what did you feel directly after? How did you feel the first time you saw your BS having betrayed them? How easy or hard was it to see AP again?


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
n0tm3
Member
Member # 37884
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, August 31st (Sunday)

I really want to know the answer to this. I always wonder what was thinking when he kissed me after having a major make session with her the first time. I really hope that we did not have sex that night.


Me: BS 45
Him: WH 45
DDay #1: 12/17/12; OW 47 married 23
years
DDay #2 2/1/13 EA 6 years ago for 2 weeks with a married college friend through FB
Married 18 years, together 21 years
3 kids; 7,13,16
R trying IC and MC

Posts: 246 | Registered: Dec 2012
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 10:19 PM, August 31st (Sunday)

I want to know how you felt the first time you had sex with your betrayed spouse after f##cking your AP? Were you feeling guilty? Or were you thinking of your AP while you were with your betrayed spouse?


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 5:59 AM, September 1st (Monday)

Yakamishi, n0tm3, & BrokenheartedWif,

Over the years I had multiple ONS and one LTAP. After those ONS, I would often be doubled up from the stress. With the LTAP, I don't remember if I felt that same gut-wrenching stress after the first time--I probably did--but that kind of stress went away over time.

I can't remember what I thought, if anything, about the other women from the ONS when I kissed my BW. Upon leaving a meeting with my LTAP, my brain would kind of switch to a different channel, usually associated with driving through the awful rush-hour traffic here where I live, and trying to get home in a time when I could claim a reasonable work- and traffic-related delay to explain why I was late. If I kissed my BW upon my arrival, which I didn't do very often, my mind was so thoroughly on traffic and work stress that I didn't have a problem.

I never had sex with my BW and the other women on the same day.

I never compared the OW with my BW while having sex. I never imagined one while I was having sex with the other. My brain just didn't work that way. I would always be thinking about the one I was with and what to do with her.

I hope this answers your questions.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 4:32 PM, September 2nd (Tuesday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 7:29 AM, September 1st (Monday)

BrokenheartedWif...

You have a PM.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197932 | Registered: May 2002
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, September 1st (Monday)

That Guy No More

Thank you for the response. Especially on a long weekend.


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 9:59 AM, September 2nd (Tuesday)

Yakamishi
Question: the first time you crossed the physical line and had sex with AP, what did you feel directly after? How did you feel the first time you saw your BS having betrayed them? How easy or hard was it to see AP again?

The stress after the first time with AP was huge. I remember literally shaking uncontrollably when BH came home from work. I avoided BH as much as I could that night and went to bed early complaining of a migraine (which I almost did get from the stress). It shames me to write this, but it got easier after that first time. Both to see AP and BH afterward.

BrokenheartedWif n0tm3
It's very tempting not to answer your question. But with both of you pretty far out from DDay I'm wondering if this is a common thought for BSs.

I want to know how you felt the first time you had sex with your betrayed spouse after f##cking your AP? Were you feeling guilty? Or were you thinking of your AP while you were with your betrayed spouse?

Here are some of the sordid logistics of my A. I made sure I didn't have sex with both AP and BH in the same day. If I was with AP (usually during the day), I would always reapply make up and brush my teeth afterwards. I would also generally go to the gym or for a run that night so a 2nd shower was expected.

Emotionally I did feel guilty when I would first see, or talk to BH after an AP encounter. After that first interaction was done I was shifted back into wife mode and fine again. But I was never feeling guilty when I kissed BH, or when we were intimate. When I was physical with BH (or AP for that matter) I was in the moment. Not because I'm noble, but because I didn't have the band width to think of both at the same time. Compare it to eating - When you're eating an ice cream sundae you're not thinking "If I was eating chocolate cake it would taste like this, or feel like this when I chew". Your brain can't do both of those feelings at the same time.

Maybe BSs assume that the WS thinks of acts with AP afterward, and you think that the most likely time is during sex? I did think about AP acts a lot during the A, but they were in alone times. In my office, in a meeting, in the car, if I woke up in the middle of the night. But not when I was talking/kissing/touching BH, or even eating dinner with the family. Only in private times. And now, post A, I work very hard at mental NC so there are virtually zero trips down memory lane.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 12:48 PM, September 2nd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, September 2nd (Tuesday)

It shames me to write this, but it got easier after that first time. Both to see AP and BH afterward.

Absolutely true for me, too.

Same answer to BHW's question. Guilt, but a lot of compartmentalization. It got easier and easier in both directions.

I didn't fantasize about AP when I had sex with BW. I actually tried to do that only once that I can remember, just to see what it would be like. It didn't work -- in fact, it was too much mental gymnastics for me to carry off. I think I am similar to TGNM in that respect.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, September 2nd (Tuesday)

familyfirst and Somthingremose

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

I ask the question, because she is always present at some point when I'm intimate with my WH. Which made me wonder about my WH and other WS and if they had thoughts.

(Unfortunately I know all to well what his AP looks like, since she was a supposed friend for over 30 years and carried on a LTA of over 16 years with my spouse and in my house.)


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, September 3rd (Wednesday)

I think is was a lot easier for me to forget my AP than it is for my BW. Just another awful thing I have done to her.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Yakamishi
Member
Member # 38230
Default  Posted: 5:24 PM, September 3rd (Wednesday)

Waywards, ty very much for your insights. It must seem almost hostile to get questioned and to give these answers. I want you to know it's given me some relief as it echoes much of what my WW has described. I guess what I've been looking for is some wierd sort of corroboration. Though not iron clad, it'll do.

You have my thanks


Me: BH
Her: WW Mrs.yaka
Kids:4
Variouse clues to EA. WW promised it would stop.
D-Day of EA 9/13/2012 2:01PM found 2 yrs of text messages, confessed to EA
D-Day of PA: confessed on 9/22/12 11:53 PM. Worst moment of my life

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Massachusetts
lilylilith
Member
Member # 44240
Default  Posted: 7:42 AM, September 4th (Thursday)

Compare it to eating - When you're eating an ice cream sundae you're not thinking "If I was eating chocolate cake it would taste like this, or feel like this when I chew". Your brain can't do both of those feelings at the same time.

Thank you - this makes perfect sense to me. It's so hard for me to think that my H wasn't thinking of the AP (or still isn't, maybe) during sex. I'll try to remember this the next time those thoughts take over.

A question: Sex with my H got super hot and steamy during his A. No complaints, our relationship really needed to be jolted from its slumber. However, if it's possible he wasn't thinking of his AP *during* sex, could his sex with her have been fuel for the sex he was then seeking from me?


Me: BW
D-Day: 6/23/14

Posts: 90 | Registered: Jul 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, September 4th (Thursday)

could his sex with her have been fuel for the sex he was then seeking from me

I am sure they are related. I'd start with maybe your WH felt more self confident during his A, and that spilled over.

As with most of the WS responses here, I am not saying that self confidence was real or good or anything like that. I am just saying that in the midst of the delusion/denial/fog/justifying/whatever was going on in our broken minds, that waywards can convince themselves of lots of things. Maybe one of the things that your WH convinced himself of boosted his ego and/or his sex drive.

This didn't happen to me, BTW. I was so compartmentalized that my A sex life didn't affect my M sex life. I did isolate myself more and more from BW, so our sex life did dip. But it wasn't like some people here, where sex with AP replaced sex with BS.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, September 4th (Thursday)

lilylilith
Sex with my H got super hot and steamy during his A

For me too, in the beginning.

could his sex with her have been fuel for the sex he was then seeking from me?

Absolutely possible. For me affair sex woke up the experimental, sexually free person in me that had grown non-existant after many years of marriage. I was confident and more excited to be with my H as well. Having good sex again was definitely motivation to stay in the A. I should have been working on that part of my marriage instead of letting us get into such a deep rut. As time when on I was having so much sex with AP, that encounters with my H started to wane. Not because I didn't enjoy my H, but frankly I didn't need any more action. That had negative side effects though, I started to view my marriage as a partnership instead of a physical relationship. Now I am working hard to incorporate both into my marriage.

Yakamishi

I've been looking for is some wierd sort of corroboration

That is why I post on this thread. I have no motivation to answer questions (my H does not know of my A or obviously this site and my posts) other than to say my truth in hopes it helps someone else's relationship. Perhaps it will in some way pay part of my karmic debt. I take no offense to the questions.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, September 4th (Thursday)

That is why I post on this thread.

I post for two reasons. First, I do want to help. Both WS and BS. The forum has helped me, and I want to pay it forward.

Second, answering BS questions helps me examine myself. I am at the point where I think I understand myself and how to fix it, but I still need to repeat it over and over to make sure I am right. This particular forum is therapy for me, too.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:55 AM, September 4th (Thursday)

This particular forum is therapy for me, too
Ditto!

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, September 4th (Thursday)

Sillyoldsod

That would be a horrible place for you to be. I am sorry that you are going through that.

One thing that my BS told me that has stuck with me is: "People that have 'Safety Nets' are going to need them" See if your WW does not commit to R 100% it has absolutely no chance to succeed. My God, I am 8 months out from DDay and committed 100% and am not sure that we will make it.

IMHO the longer she sits on the fence, the easier it will be to push her to the other side. And if she won't go NC with the AP then you are not in R. As she has not stopped the A.

I would think that putting her to a choice, is the option. But as a WS, she will probably tell you that she stopped seeing OM even when she hasn't. Most likely the only option is 180.

MC won't help. Her getting IC reluctantly won't help. First for her she has to want to help herself.

imissmyhusb

I still work one AP. My BS works from home part time. It is very hard for her when I go to work. But after quite a bit of time now, she believes that I am not engaging in any conversation with the AP. I also give my BS access to my work email, work phone, etc. And tell her of any and all contact. And maybe the disgust and contempt in my voice for the AP helps a little too. I am also looking feverishly for a new job. I have had 6 interviews since dday. So that is reassuring to my BS.

lilylilith

could his sex with her have been fuel for the sex he was then seeking from me?

It probably played into an increased libido. But this is generally in the beginning of an A. as an A goes on and the libido drops, generally the BS is the one that loses out.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
gimmeshelter
Member
Member # 44263
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, September 4th (Thursday)

This question is primarily for the WW's out there trying to reconcile with their spouse but WH's welcome. What was the tipping point that propelled you to take the risk and become completely honest with yourself and your spouse. What motivates you to keep working at recovery in general and more specifically what keeps you pushing forward on those days where you feel like its useless, to painful, hard, humbling etc.

Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: mn
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 6:39 PM, September 4th (Thursday)

gimmeshelter

WH here, so thanks for opening it up to us too. For myself I had been going through the love dare, and started reading my Bible again. And I kept getting told "Be Honest" and kept reading how much God hates lies. And that started my down the path. More on this in a minute.

My original plan was, Be honest about everything that she know about. And I will tell her the rest in a year. I wanted to be honest. But I was "Protecting her" (of course really I was protecting my own ass) by not telling her the rest. Because of course "she couldn't handle it" I started being completely honest about everything except the A. She found the EA. But I had not disclosed the PA with the others. Then while reading SI. I saw the truth of TT. And what it causes. And saw the reality of what that TT would actually do to my BS.

So the first part of this story now comes into play. It gave me the courage, because at that point only God himself could save me.

FWIW


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 627 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 9:01 PM, September 4th (Thursday)

Gimmeshelter,

The lies hurt everyone, my BS especially, and they ultimately hurt me too. Facing the consequences of the truth is healthier and easier than keeping up the charade of lies which ultimately collapses upon itself like Bernie Madoff's elaborate Ponzi scheme. I got away with it for so long that I convinced myself that I would never get caught, and I would just have to carry my secrets to my grave. Now that the whole truth is known, it may cost me my marriage and my family, but at least I've taken the first and I think most important step towards healing--being honest with others and myself. Finally!

I'm still discovering all the damage I've done to my BW and the collateral damage to family and friends. I am discouraged each time a new valued relationship is broken because of my choices. The hole seems to be getting deeper at this point, 6 months out from DDay. I cannot control how others feel about me, but I can do everything within my power to try to make amends. If one day I am able to repair those relationships, great! I suspect some are irrevocably broken though, and that just sucks.

What keeps me going is the commitment I have made to healing regardless of whether we R or D. Sadly I cannot undo what I have done. What I can do is learn why I did what I did, and develop the tools and appropriate coping mechanisms to prevent me from choosing another A or anything else destructive ever again. That includes lying. I didn't like who I had become. I don't want to be that guy anymore.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 8:30 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
lilylilith
Member
Member # 44240
Default  Posted: 7:20 AM, September 5th (Friday)

Thank you somethingremorse, familyfirst, and DrJekyll!

I'd start with maybe your WH felt more self confident during his A, and that spilled over...Maybe one of the things that your WH convinced himself of boosted his ego and/or his sex drive.

^^This is exactly what my husband said. In my mind my argument is naturally that he was fantasizing about the AP during sex, which fueled the fire, so to speak. He swears that is not the case. He swears that she fed his ego to the point that he was confident to pursue me more aggressively, something that he hadn't felt he could do without being turned down in the year prior to the A when our sex life was sporadic and stale, at best. And that aggressive pursuit is exactly what I had been missing from him, too, so my receptiveness to him just opened all the more...and...the sex became amazing for both of us. He swears he's never thought of her while we were having sex. (Of course, the counter to this is that he never thought of me while having sex with her, either. Ouch.)

It probably played into an increased libido. But this is generally in the beginning of an A. as an A goes on and the libido drops, generally the BS is the one that loses out.

^^^This is along with what familyfirst was saying too.

His affair ended at exactly 2mos, but he started planning his exit at ~1mos out. I can confirm that with the emails I read. (Note: planning exit does not mean no sex with AP, unfortunately.) He says that our newly awakened sex life/re-connection is what pulled him from his fog and made him realize that our relationship was the one he wanted to nourish; That the place we were finally arriving to was what he'd been wanting for so long. In those 2mos, our sex life never dropped, just kept increasing. He was with his AP 1 night a week during the last month of the affair (11 nights total the entire affair.) Any longer with the AP and I'm sure the frequency of or sex would have decreased. He stuck to his exit plan and left the affair ~2weeks before I discovered the truth.

Again, thank you all for your responses. As someone who is very hurt and bitter, my initial reaction is to shout "BULLSHIT!" every time my H tells me something that sounds like it's "just what I want to hear". Hearing your honest and very similar responses helps me to accept his truths more openly.


Me: BW
D-Day: 6/23/14

Posts: 90 | Registered: Jul 2014
gimmeshelter
Member
Member # 44263
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, September 6th (Saturday)

Thanks for your honest replys. They help me find my way through this in some small ways

Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: mn
deena04
Member
Member # 41741
Default  Posted: 9:28 AM, September 6th (Saturday)

Are there any WS's that did end up divorcing and realized too late that they lost their spouse? He keeps telling me that he's changing and better and working towards better yet. I can't do it. It made me wonder how often a WS that ends up divorced looks back and thinks that they truly lost what they wanted to have. Some divorces are better for both, but just wondering if some really hate that they got divorced.


Me BS mid-late 30s
Him WS knocking on 40 (lovemywife4ever)
blended family with lots of kiddos
together 5 years, married 8/13
D day 12/1/13
WH ONS had been 4/12
Getting ME back and moving to HAPPY - whatever that means
I want out!

Posts: 997 | Registered: Dec 2013
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, September 6th (Saturday)

Deena04,

Yep, that was me. I bitterly regretted losing my H even before the divorce was filed. I regretted it on D-day, when during the entire affair I thought I'd be able to walk away without a care.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
sazart4
Member
Member # 44556
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, September 6th (Saturday)

I want to know how you felt the first time you had sex with your betrayed spouse after f##cking your AP? Were you feeling guilty? Or were you thinking of your AP while you were with your betrayed spouse?

i felt extremly guilty and start crying after it


me WW 38
him BS 39
"If you live long enough, you'll make mistakes. But if you learn from them, you'll be a better person. It's how you handle adversity, not how it affects you. The main thing is never quit, never quit, never quit."

Posts: 76 | Registered: Aug 2014
sazart4
Member
Member # 44556
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, September 6th (Saturday)

double post

[This message edited by sazart4 at 7:20 PM, September 6th (Saturday)]


me WW 38
him BS 39
"If you live long enough, you'll make mistakes. But if you learn from them, you'll be a better person. It's how you handle adversity, not how it affects you. The main thing is never quit, never quit, never quit."

Posts: 76 | Registered: Aug 2014
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 7:31 PM, September 6th (Saturday)

This is a tricky question, I suppose, because it's so individual...

But for the WS's out there - yes a big part of moving forward is to figure out underlying issues and this board tends to focus on those of the WS and the M. But, what is it you would want the BS to look for in themselves as well? What would you want them to conquer in IC, in addition to healing I suppose?


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, September 6th (Saturday)

Lark...

But, what is it you would want the BS to look for in themselves as well?

That's a really good question The first thing that came to my mind was when I was journaling the first year after D-day. I realized I was super mad and resentful...not just over what I had done but all the things that led up to me cheating.

MH works very hard, sometimes up to 18 hours a day, 6 days a week...he always has so that was no surprise to me going into our relationship. I did however develop deep resentment that I was not only holding down a full time job that I had to commute to over 2 hours a day, but run our house, do all the chores, take care of the animals...all on my own. For years I did this. And sometimes, I even ate dinner alone...which I really hated. If something went wrong, then I was solely to blame. But of course I was...I was the only one making any decisions.

MH ended up reading my journal (which was a huge breach of our agreement, but that's a different topic...lol!) and the end result is I think he finally understood the pressure that was put on me to keep things running around the house. Over the course of time, because we all know that changing bad habits takes effort and time, he started to help more around the house.

Now, we do everything (for the most part) together, which I know we both enjoy!! We have a lot of fun and truly love being around each other.

So long story short ...I think it's important for the BS to be an active participant in the marriage/relationship. Be equal partners and if you know one is better at something than the other...let that one lead


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197932 | Registered: May 2002
Imissmyhusb
Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 10:41 PM, September 6th (Saturday)

Thank u drjekyll!


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 229 | Registered: Mar 2014
Imissmyhusb
Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, September 6th (Saturday)

Thank u drjekyll!


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 229 | Registered: Mar 2014
womaninflux
Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, September 7th (Sunday)

I know this has been asked before but I'd like to throw this one out here again:

When you were IN the LT affair, did you feel like you really loved the AP?

Now that you are out of the affair and you look back, what do you see?

Also, if you are a year or more out, what do you feel when you think about the A and the AP?

What do you think about your BS in the context of what they have had to live through and accept in order to R?


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 897 | Registered: Jun 2013
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, September 7th (Sunday)

Womaninflux,

When you were IN the LT affair, did you feel like you really loved the AP?
I told her I loved her, but I was mistaken. Many times she would ask me what I loved and often I said that I loved it that I could really be at peace and relax with her. I see now that it wasn't her that I loved. I loved escaping to "bubble world." She could've been anybody.

Now that you are out of the affair and you look back, what do you see?
I see two broken people with relationship issues that they weren't addressing in healthy ways. I see how we used and manipulated each other. I see how messed up I was (and still am) with my FOO issues. I see how clueless I was to all the damage I was causing my BW along the way. I see how I blamed my BW for everything that went wrong in our marriage.

Also, if you are a year or more out, what do you feel when you think about the A and the AP?
I'm only 6 months out. I try not to think about my AP. When I do, I quickly "change the channel." I don't want to waste any more head space on her than I already have. My energy and focus is on my BW and healing.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:17 PM, September 7th (Sunday)

When you were IN the LT affair, did you feel like you really loved the AP?

Yes. He was an ex and I felt as though I truly did know and love "the real him" as I had known him for years, some of those in the context of a "real, out in the open" relationship.

Now that you are out of the affair and you look back, what do you see?

The same, regarding the feelings. But with the added opinion that I was not in any way justified in doing what I did, regardless of those feelings, and that I did something shameful, hurtful to others, abhorrent, and against my values. Something that should never be done or tolerated regardless of any type of feelings.

Also, if you are a year or more out, what do you feel when you think about the A and the AP?

About the A: disgust and shame for my actions. About the AP: someone that I used to know and who participated in my doing something shameful, hurtful to others, abhorrent, and against my values. Someone that on some days, I wish I'd never even met...let alone dated...and big-time let alone never had an affair with. My actions have many painful repercussions.

What do you think about your BS in the context of what they have had to live through and accept in order to R?

I think he'd rather have divorced me than deal with it and live through it in order to R. And he did divorce me. So, I don't think of it in that context. I accept what he told me 2 years ago when we began to R: that he wasn't angry about it anymore, that he was "over it," that he wanted to put it behind us and move forward with our lives together. I think that what he was able to do is easier said than done. I believe he did it, but I don't really understand how. *I'm* not "over it" at 4 1/2 years out, so I have no idea how he was "over it" in less than 2...considering HE was the one TO whom it was done, and I was the doer.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, September 8th (Monday)

When you were IN the LT affair, did you feel like you really loved the AP?

I told AP "ILY" and I am sure that I meant it at the time. That is, I wasn't using it as a line to get laid.

I have discussed this a bunch of times, and I keep coming up with the same answer. I think "love" is a huge field. For me, what I felt at the time with AP was somewhere on that continuum. I compare it to being in high school.

When I was 18, I would have said that I loved my GF at that time. But I see that the real depth of that feeling was pretty shallow. We went out on a date for a couple hours on the weekends, I talked to her once or twice a week on the phone. There is not much connection there, but I think it legitimately was "love."

I pretty much had a similar connection with AP. So it seemed like "love."

Added to that is the feeling that many of us had. We know we were doing a horrible thing, but if we "loved" the other person, it couldn't be that bad, right? I did this, too. I over-emphasized certain moments to "prove" I loved AP.

I know that feeling with AP was part shallow and part flat-out self-deception. The feelings I have with BW are much, much deeper and more complete. It is waaaaaay on the other side of the continuum.

Now that you are out of the affair and you look back, what do you see?

Also, if you are a year or more out, what do you feel when you think about the A and the AP?

I think that I see the A for what it was. It was a self-fulfilling prophesy. I wanted to feel loved, and that I was meaningful in someone's life. But I was not willing to do any work to address the problems with me. So I looked for the easiest, most superficial way to accomplish that. I found someone who thought the same things. So we both pretended and lied to ourselves to fill that hole. It really had nothing to do with the AP, except that she was there. She could have been any person who was broken in the "right" way for me.

I'm coming up on a year. I still cannot believe that I did all of that. It is so far from anything that I thought I wanted or was capable of doing. I am disgusted with myself during that time.

As for my APs, I realize a lot of what was going on in their heads and lives at the time. I hope they get better. I hate for anyone to be in the place I was. That applies to my APs and to the people here on SI.

Since AP#1 is my SIL, I do really hope that she fixes herself and her family. I am not part of her healing, and I don't think fondly about the A or anything like that. I think of myself as a broken person who is capable of redemption. I have to think of my APs as the same.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
owls4olive
New Member
Member # 44773
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, September 8th (Monday)

I guess my biggest question is how do I know that you've truly decided to stop your wandering and commit to us? I'm having a hard time feeling confident in the H's renewed commitment, as this isn't the first time. He told me he felt physically sick when I found out- but that's temporary.

Is anything real?


Me: BW (25)
Him: WH (26)
M: 5 years
DDays: I think 2 or 3 between 2012 and 2013... have blocked this out. Most recent: 5/9/14

Working through this one day, one minute, one emotional swing at a time.


Posts: 13 | Registered: Sep 2014 | From: UK
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, September 8th (Monday)

I think that I see the A for what it was. It was a self-fulfilling prophesy. I wanted to feel loved, and that I was meaningful in someone's life. But I was not willing to do any work to address the problems with me. So I looked for the easiest, most superficial way to accomplish that. I found someone who thought the same things. So we both pretended and lied to ourselves to fill that hole. It really had nothing to do with the AP, except that she was there. She could have been any person who was broken in the "right" way for me.
What somethingremorse said. This is exactly how it was for me. Add to that I didn't realize that the person to offer me love was my BW. At the time of my A's, I projected a whole bunch of insincerity upon her, playing back the recorded message in my head of my alcoholic mother that she didn't really love me. I was convinced that my BW was the one that needed fixing, not me. The blame went everywhere else except in my lap.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 3:13 PM, September 8th (Monday)

So long story short ...I think it's important for the BS to be an active participant in the marriage/relationship. Be equal partners and if you know one is better at something than the other...let that one lead

Thank you Deeply Scared, that makes a lot of sense. In trying to parse out what was M related and what was A related, my husband and I have both admitted that one issue in the M was that we allowed external stressors (children, work, etc) to create cracks. Rather than recognizing it and doubling our efforts to spend more time together, we both allowed it to continue - which of course made things worse. He went elsewhere to fix it. I assumed it was temporary and although attempted to address it, didn't focus fully on it.


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 3:20 PM, September 8th (Monday)

owls4olive,

This is the hardest thing for remorseful, committed WS's. We could be doing all the work, saying and doing all the right things, but there's no way we can prove beyond doubt that we are committed to our BS and the M. There's no way you can monitor your WS 24/7 to make sure there's no gaslighting, no further lies, no deeper deceptions going on. It isn't what you want to hear, and frankly, as a wayard, it isn't what I want to hear coming from my BW either. How I wish I could conclusively prove that I am 100% committed to my wife and erase all this doubt she carries! All I can do is be as transparent and accountable as possible, doing whatever it takes to help her feel safe. It is my hope that, over time, my consistent actions will lead her to feel more confident that I am not still cheating.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
hopefull77
Member
Member # 43221
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, September 8th (Monday)

Thatguynomore....
I love my husband .....probably more than i ever realized....he would say the same.....I believe He will never do that to HIMSELF ever again.....he is proving it every day....
I want him to be present at every event small or big in our life ...
we offer each other hope.....


me-BS
him-WS
3 adult children 1D 2S
married-1977
LTA 09-2010 - 11-2012
D-day - 11-11-2012
status - reconciling and very hopeful
"Let Go of Control; Let God's Life Flow" ...Richard Rohr



Posts: 556 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: sunny california
plainpain
Member
Member # 40139
Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, September 8th (Monday)

After Dday, more than a year ago, my WH said some things while still in the fog. After all this time, they still almost hurt more than the A itself.
1. When I asked him if she was prettier than me, he said, "Don't ask questions you don't want the answer to." Then later he told me she was "very, very beautiful". I met her later, and she is not very, very beautiful at all. She is bordering on homely. Now he can't remember having said that and doesn't know why he would have said it. My question is, did he really believe she was that beautiful, or was he perhaps embarrassed that she was not?
2. He was angry at me for confronting her, and he told me that when he saw us side by side he thought she was a better woman than me. Which is, basically, like a hatchet to my heart after it has been stomped on, shit on and lit on fire. This, after swearing up and down that he always loved me, it was never about me, I was a perfect wife, she was nothing to him. My question is, how do I ever recover from those words? He can't take them back, and I hear them in my head every day. Can you help me put this into some kind of perspective? He says he was wrong to say it, and it wasn't true, but I am always fearful that when he is angry at me he feels that way again.


Me: Believer; 40s
Him: Liar; 40s
Married 19 years
1 year EA/2 month PA/incidental infidelities I can't begin to process
OC born 2014
OW:21
In successful R, but still in just plain pain.

Posts: 807 | Registered: Jul 2013
owls4olive
New Member
Member # 44773
Default  Posted: 2:27 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)

ThatGuy,

Thanks for being honest about it. I know it's not something that he (or you, or anyone really) could simply prove to me. It's difficult.

I think I'm just bothered because this last time it was an online thing, and I only found out a few days ago- but the H still spends just as much time on the computer as he did before.


Me: BW (25)
Him: WH (26)
M: 5 years
DDays: I think 2 or 3 between 2012 and 2013... have blocked this out. Most recent: 5/9/14

Working through this one day, one minute, one emotional swing at a time.


Posts: 13 | Registered: Sep 2014 | From: UK
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 8:25 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)

owls4olive,

He should be completely transparent about his online activities. You should have all his passwords to all his accounts. You should have unfettered access to his computer. If he objects, it's probably because he's still hiding something. A remorseful wayward should be eager to demonstrate that he has changed his ways.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 8:27 AM, September 9th (Tuesday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
She-Ra
Member
Member # 36033
Default  Posted: 2:36 PM, September 9th (Tuesday)

^^^^^^^^ Agreed. There is no real way of knowing 100%.

Honestly, I think putting a keylogger on the computer should be a priority if he is a recent re-offender. What's his phone use like? Putting a GPS tracker on his phone is a good idea. A WS who really wants to cheat again, will. A WS who doesn't want to cheat again, still might if they remain broken.

Know all his passwords for every e-mail including work, social media site, banking, credit cards, the whole sha-bang.


WW/BW 33 BH/WH 34
1 year old beautiful daughter

Posts: 848 | Registered: Jul 2012
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 9:57 PM, September 9th (Tuesday)

Plainpain,

I said some things immediately after DDay that I wish I never had. They seared my BW's ears. My BW still throws them back at me 6 months later, so I know they still sting. I see now that I had a pretty poor perspective at that time. I don't feel that way anymore. I will never, EVER think those words again, let alone say them, but the damage has been done and I can't undo it. No amount of backpedaling and new, out-of-the-fog perspectives has made any difference as far as I can tell. In my BW's mind, she will never measure up because of what I said.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
owls4olive
New Member
Member # 44773
Default  Posted: 1:10 AM, September 10th (Wednesday)

She-Ra,

I keep track of his computer history when I feel like something might be going on. I've got all of his logons for everything except his work email as I would have to go to his work and use his ID to log in to it. Honestly I'm not worried about that side of things as much. He's got access to his regular email and texts at work and has no reason to put himself in a position to get in a lot of trouble (as it's an offense to have an affair in his line of work).

I talked to WH last night (as we've been doing most nights since I found out what was going on), and I explained as plainly as I could what I wanted from him, as he didn't really understand what I had said before (although I was likely hysterical and incoherent).

I've told him I'm honestly not comfortable with him talking to ANY women right now, but that's not practical in reality. He told me he would honor that in his online conversations (FB and texts, etc), and that he was open to me looking/reading his stuff and discussing anything he might have said that I wasn't okay with.

Thank you all for your help with this, it's given me a good base to go back to WH and explain what I need in realistic terms and get somewhere.

One more question: Is the hurt I make WH feel when I tell him I can't trust him/don't always believe the words that are coming out of his mouth worth it? If we make it through this (and this being so early on it is an IF, as much as I hate to admit it), will he look back at this and resent me, or will he appreciate where we have gotten in our M?


Me: BW (25)
Him: WH (26)
M: 5 years
DDays: I think 2 or 3 between 2012 and 2013... have blocked this out. Most recent: 5/9/14

Working through this one day, one minute, one emotional swing at a time.


Posts: 13 | Registered: Sep 2014 | From: UK
notanavrageangel
Member
Member # 44154
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

QUESTION:

WH said something the other night that triggered me. We were invited to celebrate a mutual friends 5 year anniversary with her husband. My WH says "I don't know if I want to go because Sammy (mutual friend) started dating her husband when he was still in a relationship with E (other woman my WH was friends with in HS)". This triggered me hard because he was sounding judgemental because there was an infidelity in that relationship.

Is it possible for a WS to look at other couples infidelities with disdain without even connecting himself to the "crime"? It just seemed weird. Is it a sign of possible healing from him? He has always been disgusted by infidelity, how could he have let himself fall into it despite?


Me: BW, 28
Him: WH, 28
DDAY 7/4/14 TT till 7/18/14

"Reconciliation means working together to correct the legacy of past injustice." - Nelson Mandela


Posts: 203 | Registered: Jul 2014
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

Is the hurt I make WH feel when I tell him I can't trust him/don't always believe the words that are coming out of his mouth worth it? If we make it through this (and this being so early on it is an IF, as much as I hate to admit it), will he look back at this and resent me, or will he appreciate where we have gotten in our M?

Yes, it's worth it. You are not lying to him, you are simply telling him the truth. That his past lies and betrayals are preventing you from being able to believe him now. What is wrong with that? Any normal human being would feel the same way. It's important he knows you feel that way. It's important he realizes he has to PROVE he's changed, not just tell you he's changed.

If he's a truly remorseful wayward, he will not look back and resent you for feeling how every single BS feels. He will be happy you were open and honest with him.

My BH tells me all the time how he's feeling and it's not very positive. It hurts to hear how he feels because I know I'm the one that caused his feelings. However, I am eternally grateful he feels comfortable enough to tell me his feelings and I need to know the consequences of my actions (lies). I need to know what he's going through.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

Is it possible for a WS to look at other couples infidelities with disdain without even connecting himself to the "crime"? It just seemed weird. Is it a sign of possible healing from him? He has always been disgusted by infidelity, how could he have let himself fall into it despite?

Is it possible the other couple's situation is a trigger for your WS and that's why he didn't want to go to the event? I know that's how I'd feel. As a WS I don't want to associate with other "cheaters". It makes me feel awkward and uncomfortable and unable to focus on anything except the horror that I did. I also assume that if it makes ME feel that way, it must make my BH feel that way times 1,000. I wouldn't want to put my BH into a situation that would knowingly make him uncomfortable.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
gimmeshelter
Member
Member # 44263
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

Is it possible for a WS to look at other couples infidelities with disdain without even connecting himself to the "crime"? It just seemed weird. Is it a sign of possible healing from him? He has always been disgusted by infidelity, how could he have let himself fall into it despite?
I'm a BS and have had the same experience. I find this to be one of the most confusing parts of our recovery. Just prior to our DD she would come home from work and tell me about this affair situation that was blowing up at her work. She seemed so disgusted by it. Over the years she would also tell me about problems some of our friends had and she would always say "I feel so bad for so and so (BS) that must hurt so much". It makes me want to yell WTF you have done the same thing to me. I think its compartmentalization.She had it put so far away she couldn't even make the connection. something she needs to address in IC hopefully. As long as she has that kind of thinking going on I know there is work to be done.Her rights to be disgusted at other peoples infidelities have been revoked until she can be fully aware that she is one of those people and equally disgusted with herself. She is getting better at navigating this stuff in her head little by little but it's a hard thing to comprehend.

Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: mn
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

If a former cheater thinks their cheating was wrong, of course they're going to feel that way about anyone else cheating...even if (or especially if) it's someone they know.

It's like when I read on here about disdain for a WS who draws a boundary over other people's immoral behavior or (heaven forbid) tries to teach their child right from wrong. They're looked at as a huge hypocrite; I'm thinking "Isn't it a GOOD thing that they feel this way??"

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 8:53 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)]


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 8:58 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)

Gimmeshelter,

Please do not respond to the questions in here. This is the place for BSs to ask questions of the WSs. Feel free to post about your situation in one of the other forums.

Thank you.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 37745 | Registered: Sep 2007
loba1957
Member
Member # 41281
Default  Posted: 12:58 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

I am wondering if any WS could give me some insight on my situation.

My DDay was Oct 8, 2013. The A ended on DDay. I know this for a fact.

For the first 6 months after DDay we did a lot of talking. We talked about all kinds of things and that was a great feeling because for most of our relationship our communication skills really sucked.

But then I began to realize that a lot of things I was being told were not adding up. Many of the things she was telling me about her A just did not sound right. They didnt feel right.

So her answers spawned new questions from me and back and forth we went.

I kept waiting for this moment when the walls would come down and she would spill everything out on the table. But that moment never came.

But there were many times when I felt we were making progress only to have that fall apart.

She agreed to answer questions as long as I did not overwhelm her. So we were doing 1 question a day and I thought that was kinda working because I felt that she was answering questions honestly but then questions started to go unanswered.

There were so many times when she would tell me she knows she needs to talk to me about her A. She wants to talk. Its the right thing to do, etc, etc.

And every time I would think that this was it; this is the break thru I have been waiting for.

But usually it would be me doing most of the talking. I would pour my heart out and there would be very little response from her. I cant even tell you how devastating that is to sit there patiently waiting for some kind of answer and never really getting one. I have gotten about a million "I dont knows", those seem to come rather easily.

I dont think she feels true remorse yet and I'm pretty sure she does not feel any empathy.

If I cornered her on something most of the time she would get defensive and sometimes angry.

I feel stupid because I feel that I have been more than patient in waiting for to open up to me.

But there is a lot at stake here. We have 4 kids and have been together for 12 years. That is hard to walk away from. And I have not reached the point where I want to throw in the towel.

What makes it even harder is that I know she is dealing with many FOO issues. I have spent months reading and researching and have come to the conclusion (sometimes I feel that way) that her FOO issues are a big part of what is preventing her from talking.

I dont know if it could be just guilt on her part. Or embarrassment. Or fear. It could be a combination of those things I really dont know.

After a 4 month delay she has started IC. She just started (Friday is her 2nd appt) so nothing has really started to happen with that yet but I still see it as a positive step.

But as of right now the bottom line is she does not want to talk about her A.

She does not want to talk about the abuse she went thru as a child either.

And at this point we dont even talk about us.

I know that that should be enough to say the hell with everything and head for the hills.

But its as if there are 2 sides of her. And right or wrong this is what I am hanging on to at the moment. One side says the things I want to hear, that she needs to change, she needs to talk, she knows the damage this is doing to our relationship.

And the other side is full of anger and resentment. This is the side that comes out when she is backed into a corner. This is the side that will blame me for her A.

When I get quiet she will ask me what is wrong and when I tell her what I am thinking I usually got little or no response. So I have learned to just say "nothing" when she asks me what is wrong.

I said lets talk about the resentments we have for each other. That would be a good way to start to rebuild us without talking abut the A. But as of yet she has not said anything. She started a list but that was several weeks ago.

I would think that if she did not want to be with me she would tell me that. But she does not say that.

I know that she is overwhelmed by many things that are going on right now but at the same time I am going thru them too.

Sometimes she will thank me for still being here with her and that she needs me to help her work thru what she has to work thru. But usually those talks end right there. Another perfect opportunity gone.

For the most part it seems to be a 1 step forward, 2 steps back kind of thing.

I dont really know what answer I am looking for other than to see any of you have gone thru something like this. I dont know if this kind of behavior is signalling the end of the relationship or not. Is it one of those situations where if given enough time thngs will turn around? I guess I am looking for something to hang on to at this point.


ME: Madhatter 57
(DDay for her A Oct 2013)
HER: Madhatter 37
(DDay for my A May 2009)

We have been together since 2003
We have 4 children


Posts: 52 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Az
gimmeshelter
Member
Member # 44263
Default  Posted: 7:25 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

Thanks for your perspective Hartbroken0903. That insight defiantly makes sense and makes me realize there are many ways to look at things. sorry authenticnow, will do

Posts: 92 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: mn
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

loba1957 -

I hate to say this in case I'm wrong, but your wife sounds a lot like how I was for a while after DDays 1 and 2. I knew the right things to say and do but I didn't feel them in my heart and I'd grow tired of it all and pull back.

Bottom line is that I had not disclosed my full A. I think you need to listen to your gut and if you think there's more she's not sharing, she probably isn't.

In my case I was also still having contact with my AP.

Also, I didn't have remorse or empathy at that time. I wanted to, but I just didn't.

Lucky for me a switch went off in my head all of a sudden and I finally told the whole truth, went NC for real, and feel remorse and empathy. It was almost too late, but thankfully it wasn't.

Your wife may have something else going on, but that was my experience.

Good luck.

ETA: Also, I wasn't fully into the R during that time that I was acting like your wife. I wasn't sure I wanted to stay in the marriage but I didn't tell that to my BH. Instead I kept working half assed at R while wondering why.

[This message edited by StartingFreshNow at 7:56 AM, September 11th (Thursday)]


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
loba1957
Member
Member # 41281
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

Thanks SFN for your reply. It helps to hear that someone else can relate to what I am going thru.
I have been following your story and am glad things are starting to turn around for you.
I guess I am waiting for that 'switch' to go off in her head. I really need that right now. I know NC is in effect and has been for awhile but the honesty, remorse, empathy arent there yet.
She has gone as far to say that shes not sure she wants me to reached (when I said I felt like I couldnt reach her)and that she feels her love for me is not as strong as it used to be. Those words hurt but at the same time she will be super affectionate hours later.
I need that honesty for me to start to trust enough to try to fix things. Right now I keep myself distant.
She did some really lowlife things during her A and they were directly or indirectly aimed at me and I struggle to decide what all that means for us now.
I guess I am looking for a sign of sorts but I know thats more or less fantasy.


ME: Madhatter 57
(DDay for her A Oct 2013)
HER: Madhatter 37
(DDay for my A May 2009)

We have been together since 2003
We have 4 children


Posts: 52 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Az
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

owls4olive:

If we make it through this (and this being so early on it is an IF, as much as I hate to admit it), will he look back at this and resent me, or will he appreciate where we have gotten in our M?

This is closely related to your earlier question, how can you be sure he means it this time.

If your WS really wants to change, to be more genuine in his own life and in your M, he is generally going to appreciate the work you have done to help him get there. Sure, there might be a specific thing here or there that he'll resent. But on the whole, if he wants to change, he'll be thankful for you.

That's how you know that this time it will be different. If you can see him say "I have a problem, and I want to get better." That's waaaay different from saying "I don't want to have another A."

I am a big believer that white knuckling it, just "not cheating", is not the way to get to a healthy individual or a healthy M.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, September 11th (Thursday)

She has gone as far to say that shes not sure she wants me to reached (when I said I felt like I couldnt reach her)and that she feels her love for me is not as strong as it used to be. Those words hurt but at the same time she will be super affectionate hours later.
I need that honesty for me to start to trust enough to try to fix things.

So she will say that but then hours later give you the affection she knows you want/need. This makes me wonder if she's just doing it because she knows that's the right thing to do - but not because she wants to do it. I could be wrong but that's what it seems like to me. You remind her what you need so she gives it to you then, but then she forgets all about it because she's not focused on you and your needs so you get stuck going without until you finally remind her again.

She's giving you just enough to keep you around in my opinion. I hope I'm wrong though.

She needs to be honest with you about her level of commitment to R. I would sit down with her and be up front. Tell her you are wondering if she's really fully committed to being with you. Ask her if she has any doubts about staying married. Try to do it in a non-confrontational way so she doesn't just give you the answer you want to hear. Tell/remind her that you want the full truth and you won't "punish" her if she says she's not sure what she wants as far as being with you or not. Tell her you want her to be open and honest about everything, even if it might hurt you, including whether she wants to be with you or if she's having doubts. I tend to think if my BH confronted me about it that way, that I'd have been honest with him.

Your post reminds me a lot of my BH. It was hard on him and me "playing games" as-to whether I wanted to be in the marriage, giving him answers he wanted to hear instead of the truth, etc was not fair to him. It messed with him even more and that's not ok to do.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
owls4olive
New Member
Member # 44773
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, September 11th (Thursday)

That's how you know that this time it will be different. If you can see him say "I have a problem, and I want to get better." That's waaaay different from saying "I don't want to have another A."

something,

Yes, and this is why I'm still in the house with him right now. This time he said almost exactly that.

Many thanks to you!!

(sorry for essentially asking the same question twice!)


Me: BW (25)
Him: WH (26)
M: 5 years
DDays: I think 2 or 3 between 2012 and 2013... have blocked this out. Most recent: 5/9/14

Working through this one day, one minute, one emotional swing at a time.


Posts: 13 | Registered: Sep 2014 | From: UK
statistic
Member
Member # 39192
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, September 12th (Friday)

Dear FWW's

For those of you who were left by your betrayed partner, how angry were you with them? We are divorcing because of my WH affair. It took me nearly a year to finally make up my mind, all the while we were trying to work things out while separated. He loses his tempter with me (verbally), especially when we talk about the affair, so I didn't want to stay in the home with our one year old.

He has been angry with me and very annoyed with me most of the time. He tells me I will regret this because our daughter will come from a broken home. He will never forgive me for torturing him this past year. He blames me for not giving him a fair shot and turning our lives upside down with the divorce. Our lifestyles will change dramatically and not for the better, especially financially.

Anyhow, were any of you angry? Can you help me understand and help me better cope? Thank you.


Truth waits for eyes unclouded by longing.

~~Tao Te Ching


Posts: 152 | Registered: May 2013 | From: United States
loba1957
Member
Member # 41281
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, September 12th (Friday)

I am both a WS and a BS. For what its worth my WW gets angry most of the time we try to talk about her A. Basically it is a deflection technique. She does not want to talk about it so she gets angry and that ends the conversation because we both end up withdrawing. It took me a while to figure out what was really going on.
There are times when we can have decent conversations about the A but during those times I am doing most of the talking. I think I am making some kind of progress but realize later on that we were just talking in circles.
Him placing all the blame on you is not right. And you are justified in wanting to discuss his A. The thing is he does not want to do that. The reasons for that could be embarrassment, guilt, shame. But it most likely could be that he does not want to face the things he did. Facing those things will cause him to look at himself and he knows he wont like what he sees but more than that he knows he will have to work hard to try and change for the better. No one is going to change until they want to and that is a hard thing to accept.


ME: Madhatter 57
(DDay for her A Oct 2013)
HER: Madhatter 37
(DDay for my A May 2009)

We have been together since 2003
We have 4 children


Posts: 52 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Az
nlovemyfamily
Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 8:42 AM, September 13th (Saturday)

Question to WS or hopefully FWS.. While in your A relationship was any validation you received from AP that included to continue betraying your spouse and family and minimize the destruction of a very loving family obvious or even refuted by you?
I am dealing with finding validation even 8 years later that my thinking is sound and protective of my family. I can't seem to come to grips with how WS could agree and participate being validated to end an intact loving long term family and destroying or compromising all strongly held prior honorable convictions?
Is the validation or pull from AP that strong?

Posts: 420 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, September 13th (Saturday)

nlove, what may help you wrap your brain around it is to replace "validation/pull from AP" with "heroin" or "cocaine". Drug addicts risk, and often lose, everything...job, family, home, health...in pursuit of a fix. My first shrink said it (the high from cheating) wasn''t "like a drug," it "is a drug," because of chemicals released into the brain. While cheating, even "sex addiction," isn''t an official clinical diagnosis, it''s a convenient framework for the question you''re asking.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
nlovemyfamily
Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, September 13th (Saturday)

Thanks for reply 20WrongsVs1, but after losing all connection with 3 adult kids who saw him as best possible dad, how does this validation hold him staying in his life remiss of all family blessings? New marriages , grand babies and all life's precious privileges? What is the payoff?

Posts: 420 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
nlovemyfamily
Member
Member # 15258
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, September 13th (Saturday)

Thanks for reply 20WrongsVs1, but after losing all connection with 3 adult kids who saw him as best possible dad, how does this validation hold him staying in his life remiss of all family blessings? New marriages , grand babies and all life's precious privileges? What is the payoff?

Posts: 420 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: nj
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 8:56 PM, September 13th (Saturday)

The payoff is the fix. The high. I''ve come out of it. Clearly, I didn''t sacrifice my family for my addiction. But others have, and even though it sucks...unfortunately I get it.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
SoLostStillNumb
Member
Member # 44248
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, September 13th (Saturday)

Do WS know when they are being self-destructive? Do they ever think to just stop? Why do some keep going back to AP if they see how their actions are destroying their lives?

My WH has pretty much lost his entire family, his marriage, financially safety and security, an investment property, our current apartment, the stability of a loving wife and future kids. He's thrown it away because he says he "isn't happy and needs to be true to himself and everyone else." He says he has been lying to everyone for such a long time and needs to stop hurting others and himself. He now barely has an income, lives in a studio that has no kitchen and is over priced, and is racking up student loans. Plus has no one to cook, clean or do laundry for him.

I don't understand how he is "happy" now that he is loosing all the above.


Me: BS 26 Him: WH 27
Married: 5 years, together 7
No kids
DDays: 6/3/14, 6/24/14, 7/2/14, 7/3/14, 9/5/14
Separated, headed for divorce
Trying to accept this nightmare is real every morning.

Posts: 190 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Currently all over
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, September 13th (Saturday)

I didn't grasp how self-destructive I was until after DDay. I needed a crisis to jolt me into seeing how screwed up I was. Six months into therapy and self-help books has helped me connect the dots of my maladaptive behaviors. I feel I'm peeling an onion, and I've got a long way to go before I get to the center of it all. I think in the past, I would've been satisfied with superficial answers and accepted that as the "why," but now I need more answers.

I have absolutely no desire to break up my family so I can concentrate on fixing me. On the contrary, I think that would have a deleterious effect on me emotionally and psychologically, making it that much harder to fix me. The daily grind of survival without my family would consume my time and energy. It would also remove an important motivator to fix me.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
SoLostStillNumb
Member
Member # 44248
Default  Posted: 11:09 PM, September 14th (Sunday)

Thank you, ThatGuyNoMore.

Another question for any WS out there: what are you thoughts on getting a reality check from another WS?

I was having a conversation with SIL today and she mentioned that maybe someone who has been through this (a WS) and has come through it and ended up on the other side would have a good perspective to share with WH. To share their feels of how the A happened, but also how he/she reached reality, pulled their head out of the fog and wanted to change to become a better person, not just to save their marriage.

I know no matter what, a WS won't change unless he/she admits the broken-ness and wants to fix it, but do you think you would have realized things a bit sooner, or snapped out of it quicker if someone who had done the same thing talked with you early on after DDay? Shared with you what they had gone through? Advised you to change your course?

I know I can suggest WH to come on SI, but I don't think I can give away my safe-haven just yet. Just thinking out loud...

[This message edited by SoLostStillNumb at 11:12 PM, September 14th (Sunday)]


Me: BS 26 Him: WH 27
Married: 5 years, together 7
No kids
DDays: 6/3/14, 6/24/14, 7/2/14, 7/3/14, 9/5/14
Separated, headed for divorce
Trying to accept this nightmare is real every morning.

Posts: 190 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Currently all over
MadOldBat
Member
Member # 44146
Default  Posted: 8:28 AM, September 15th (Monday)

Dear WSs,
Did you visit prostitutes?
Are you bipolar / depressed?
If so - Why did you think you sleep with prostitutes?
If you did it more than once / many times - but some part of you knew this was very wrong - why do you think you continued to behave in this way?
What was your thinking about your family / BS if or when you did this?
Did you think about it / calculate the possible loss / risk?
Was that any part of the attraction?
I just don't understand the thought process and would be really pleased (i think) if any WSs were able to answer or post with their thoughts.
Thanks in advance.


Trying to keep my chin(s) up

Posts: 76 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: United Kingdom
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:18 AM, September 15th (Monday)

Another question for any WS out there: what are you thoughts on getting a reality check from another WS?

I think that is a great idea. It's why I spend an hour here every day. You are right that the WS needs to want to hear it.

Couple of people asked the question about how we could risk everything for the A.

The short answer is that I forced myself to not think about my family, job, house, etc. I compartmentalized my A so that I could live with myself. So while I was in my A, I purposely didn't pay attention to anything else.

Lots of BS don't believe that compartmentalization like that is possible. I think that is a credit to them, to not understand how I could turn my back on the only things I have ever wanted. But I truly believe that the way I thought was not normal.

The more complicated answer lies in all of the mechanisms and justifications that allowed me to compartmentalize that completely. Just as one example, I know now that I have this desperate need to feel accepted, like I am part of something. I am also a martyr. So when my BW and I started to distance a bit, my martyrdom kicked in to tell me that I was being ignored. My need to be part of something allowed me to justify my A. The more I did it, the more I believed those justifications. I convinced myself that BW was ignoring me, and the only thing I could do was have an A.

These thoughts were absolutely incorrect, but the pull of "being included" was so strong, that I'd convince myself of anything I needed to get that feeling. The fact that I'm inclined towards being a martyr made it easier to do that.

I was able to convince myself, and delude myself, and not think about consequences of my actions because of a combination of these internal problems. The answer may not be the same for your WS, but I know how it was for me.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, September 15th (Monday)

SoLostStillNumb,

I absolutely knew I was being self-destructive. I recognized it immediately but my desire to have the affair was stronger than my willingness to get healthy and stop destroying my life (and the lives of those affected).


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
NoGoodUsername
Member
Member # 40181
Default  Posted: 8:58 PM, September 15th (Monday)

Another question for any WS out there: what are you thoughts on getting a reality check from another WS?

SoLostStillNumb-
Getting guidance from the other WS on this site was and still is valuable. Hearing other Betrayed spouses' stories was also hugely helpful. There are so many perspectives out there that it creates opportunities for some piece of wisdom to stick. Seeing just how much damage infidelity does in the world has gone a long way toward helping me 'get it'. The reality check from other Waywards helped me immensely.


Me: WH
Her: BW
Dday 7/11/13
"May you be protected from hearts that are not humble, tongues that are not wise and eyes that have forgotten how to cry."

Posts: 244 | Registered: Aug 2013
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 10:14 PM, September 15th (Monday)

SoLostStillNumb,

Getting a reality check from other WS's and from BS's is immensely valuable. Sometimes there's consensus and other times there's diversity of opinion. I believe there's great wisdom in the collective experiences of all on here. I think I get most out of when the BS's chime in on thread in the Wayward forum. That's when I hear my BW's feelings expressed in different ways by other BS's. It helps things click for me when maybe I wasn't really getting what my BW was saying.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
SoLostStillNumb
Member
Member # 44248
Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, September 15th (Monday)

Thanks guys, this has been immensely helpful. As of right now, WH doesn't want to R, and is pretty set on D. Nothing has been filed yet, but we are separated and he is continuing to communicate with OP.

At this point, I know I'm holding on to a bare thread of hope for nothing other than to help me get up out of bed each morning. The probability that this will turn into R looks fairly grim.

I still care and love WH and even if he doesn't want this M anymore, he is broken and doesn't see that. I'm considering sharing SI with him so he can find fellow WS on here as support for himself and hopefully realize he needs help with getting through this even if we D.

Who's to know if he will 1. even come on here and stay long enough to read or interact with anyone and 2. even take what he reads to heart and sees how it can be helpful to him.

Any tips on how to share with him how this wonderful place can be helpful to him even if we D? I don't want him to just be like "yeah, sure w.e." and just think I'm trying to "win him back" or something. I want him to know that yes I still care about him, and even though this M has basically fallen apart, I still want him to be a better person and the best possible version of himself, no matter what. I want him to get help so he can fix his issues and have better/healthier relationships in the future (even if it is't with me.) So he can be at peace with himself.

I know I can't GET him to realize ANY of this if he refuses to see it himself. I know I can't FIX him. But I want to at least show him there are places he can go for help if he wants it...


Me: BS 26 Him: WH 27
Married: 5 years, together 7
No kids
DDays: 6/3/14, 6/24/14, 7/2/14, 7/3/14, 9/5/14
Separated, headed for divorce
Trying to accept this nightmare is real every morning.

Posts: 190 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Currently all over
Beth7556
New Member
Member # 44829
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, September 17th (Wednesday)

I was wondering how many WS's stripped their BS of all dignity and self esteem when they were caught. My WH exploded 3 days before he was going to move out of town for a job. Told me we were done. Called the monday he moved and said he changed his mind. Tuesday morning I found the letters from the OW. When I visited him to talk about it that night he sat me down for 4 hours and told me everything that was wrong with me. I was sexually unattractive to him, bad housekeeper, bad mother.... the list goes on. the next day he told me he wanted to work on our marriage and started MC with me. Is this a normal progression when caught. He did end the EA the next day and sent me a copy of the email. But I am having a hard time with the things said about me personally. It got very ugly.


Me BS 50 years old
WS 51 EA 5 months (still waiting for other shoe to drop)
17 and 16 year old boys
DD - 7/22/14 day before our 18th anniversary

Posts: 11 | Registered: Sep 2014 | From: Mi
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, September 18th (Thursday)

Beth --

I wanted to let you know that you were heard.

Kind of a tough question to answer. I know just the fact that I had an A crushed my BW. It destroyed her self esteem. She wondered why she wasn't enough for me, thought she didn't compare with AP's, all of that stuff. That was even though I never said anything to purposely tear her down. SO just the A takes you 90% of the way to having all of your dignity and self esteem stripped. The hurtful stuff he said to you is just piling on.

I will say that lots of waywards get confused, scared, defensive, etc., on DDay. There are lots of stories here of WS belittling their BS or complaining about their M as a way to justify their behavior. We call it blame shifting around here. Pointing the finger at anyone else lets us avoid looking at our own problems.

I probably thought most of those things about my BW during my A, even if I didn't say them. I don't know if that is much better than what your WH did to you. Now I know that they were not true. Those thoughts were just my justifications for having an A, or my clouded way of dealing with my own shortcomings.

If your question really is "Can someone really flip back and forth like this" then my answer is yes. I saw lots of things that weren't really there. I thought I had problems that didn't exist. I convinced myself that BW thought one way or another, when nothing was further from the truth. At one time I thought the way your BW did, and I know I was wrong. After lots of help, I see things much more clearly now. So it is possible to be awful one day, and to wake up to reality after that.

Hang in there.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
loba1957
Member
Member # 41281
Default  Posted: 8:21 AM, September 20th (Saturday)

NEW QUESTION

I have a question that really bothers me but I need to give some background first.

One day I got a phone call from my WW while she at work and she told me she hurt her back. She said she bumped into a table. I didnt really think anything of it because I knew how things were at her work and could easily picture her doing something like that. The next day she sent me a pic of her bruises, saying my bruise is getting worse. Again I didnt really think much of it. They were nasty looking bruises; about 5-6 lines across the small of her back. She told me she had taken the pic to show her boss.

I dont remember if it seemed odd to me or not at the time but I didnt make a big deal out of it.

After she confessed her A it came out that those bruises happened when she fucked her AP on a table at work. Supposedly it was the first time they did that but who knows.

Anyway my question is why do you think she sent me that pic? Was it an attempt to cover her ass somehow? Or do you think it was some kind of sick way of getting back at me for something?

Also all during her A she would send me pics that she would take of herself while at work. She would go into the bathroom and take a pic. They were pics of her showing her bra, or her boobs, and some were panty shots. I always liked getting those pics, and always had something to say about them; they were sexy, you look hot, etc. But again after she confessed it came out that all the pics she sent me were actually taken for her AP. She would send the pic to him and also send it to me. The only explanation I got for that was that she wanted to compare what my comments were against what his comments were. I dont know if I buy that.

Has any WS ever done something similar to this?


ME: Madhatter 57
(DDay for her A Oct 2013)
HER: Madhatter 37
(DDay for my A May 2009)

We have been together since 2003
We have 4 children


Posts: 52 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Az
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, September 20th (Saturday)

Anyway my question is why do you think she sent me that pic? Was it an attempt to cover her ass somehow? Or do you think it was some kind of sick way of getting back at me for something?

It could have been in case you saw the bruises and asked her what happened.

Also all during her A she would send me pics that she would take of herself while at work. She would go into the bathroom and take a pic. They were pics of her showing her bra, or her boobs, and some were panty shots. I always liked getting those pics, and always had something to say about them; they were sexy, you look hot, etc. But again after she confessed it came out that all the pics she sent me were actually taken for her AP. She would send the pic to him and also send it to me. The only explanation I got for that was that she wanted to compare what my comments were against what his comments were. I dont know if I buy that.

Yes, I did exactly this. Not to compare comments, though---because I really did want both my then-H and the AP to have the pics. I wasn't interested in comparing comments. I felt, at the time of the affair, that I was in a "simultaneous relationship" with both of them...I guess like polyamory but unknowingly on my H's side. So usually when I texted one of them about anything of interest or a pic I sent them to both.

Makes me feel dirty just thinking about it but HTH.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
womaninflux
Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 10:04 PM, September 20th (Saturday)

thanks, Something Remorse. Your answer helped me, too.


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 897 | Registered: Jun 2013
Sleepingbeauty
Member
Member # 43792
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, September 21st (Sunday)

Would you ever try and use temporary insanity as an excuse for what you did? I just can't imagine any other reason for destroying so many other lives.

Posts: 278 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: East coast
loba1957
Member
Member # 41281
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, September 21st (Sunday)

heartbroken0903

Thank you for that answer. It helped more than you know.
I read your profile and your past issues sound very similar to what my WW has to deal with. How long did it take you to start really talking about your A? We dont talk about it at all anymore because I have pretty much given up on getting anywhere. In the months prior we did do some talking but alot of it was TT on her part.
Now she has nothing to say really and if I bring it up she gets defensive and shuts down. But its not just about her A, she does not want to talk about any of the abuse she went thru...nothing from the past. I was just wondering if this is something common as well? Thanks!


ME: Madhatter 57
(DDay for her A Oct 2013)
HER: Madhatter 37
(DDay for my A May 2009)

We have been together since 2003
We have 4 children


Posts: 52 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Az
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:00 PM, September 21st (Sunday)

loba1957,

I've actually always wanted to talk about the A/answer questions. It's my H who has never wanted to discuss it. He refuses to have it brought up at all anymore so we never talk about it.

He's not interested in my past issues either. He's very "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get over it" although he'd never say that in so many words (too conflict avoidant). He understands my issues and how they contributed to my adultery but like the affair itself he believes they should be gotten over and put/kept in the past.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, September 23rd (Tuesday)

I've actually always wanted to talk about the A/answer questions. It's my H who has never wanted to discuss it. He refuses to have it brought up at all anymore so we never talk about it.

He's not interested in my past issues either. He's very "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get over it" although he'd never say that in so many words (too conflict avoidant). He understands my issues and how they contributed to my adultery but like the affair itself he believes they should be gotten over and put/kept in the past.

This is my situation, too.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, September 23rd (Tuesday)

Has any WS ever done something similar to this?

I spent soooooooo much time trying to cover my tracks. It was one lie after another. AP#1 and I started out going to a local club to hear bands. When the A started, I'd research bands, listen to their songs, so that I could craft a complete story. I'd make up issues with clients, so that I'd have to make out of the office appointments. For me, I tried to hide everything.

In my A's, we didn't overlap with the M's. I was so compartmentalized that I didn't do things with BW that I did with AP. I'd even avoid restaurants with one or the other. But that is only my story, and I know others did the same sorts of things your WW did. The point is that there is not any one "typical" wayward behavior. Some things will make no sense at all to you, but might have been what your WW was actually thinking during her A. It is hard to make sense of it all.

Hang in there.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:44 AM, September 23rd (Tuesday)

loba1957
my question is why do you think she sent me that pic? Was it an attempt to cover her ass somehow? Or do you think it was some kind of sick way of getting back at me for something?

I agree with your other responses, this is exactly the type of elaborate cover story I'd tell to make sure my H didn't get suspicious. I'd be willing to bet it had nothing to do with getting back at you in any way.

I didn't share picts like your WS, but I did things like buy new underware that I expected, and wanted to show both AP and my BH. There was no complicated thought process or motive associated with that except to think I looked good in it. Maybe your WS had similar thinking

[This message edited by familyfirst at 11:45 AM, September 23rd (Tuesday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
losthope13
New Member
Member # 44626
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, September 25th (Thursday)

For the WH out there. My WH will not tell the whole truth. He has not shown sincere remorse. He says I am his whole world but wants to R with lies and secrets between us. What is going on? He is in IC and I am as well. It is pushing us further apart with no full disclosure and sporadic apologies. Why can't he see what this is doing? He is still making excuses as to why he thought his behavior was alright. Help!!!

Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2014
losthope13
New Member
Member # 44626
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, September 25th (Thursday)

For the WH out there. My WH will not tell the whole truth. He has not shown sincere remorse. He says I am his whole world but wants to R with lies and secrets between us. What is going on? He is in IC and I am as well. It is pushing us further apart with no full disclosure and sporadic apologies. Why can't he see what this is doing? He is still making excuses as to why he thought his behavior was alright. Help!!!

Posts: 15 | Registered: Aug 2014
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, September 25th (Thursday)

Full transparency and complete honesty are the only path to healing and R. Anything less is just rug sweeping and will eventually lead to S and D. Your WH has a choice to make.

Your WH is still hiding things because he's afraid of what you might discover about him and his behavior, whether his A is still ongoing or his infidelites are whole lot more complicated than what he's told you, or both. He's afraid if you know the whole truth, you'll reject him.

eta: corrected BH to WH.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 6:59 PM, September 27th (Saturday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Neverwudaguessed
Member
Member # 41884
Default  Posted: 9:25 AM, September 26th (Friday)

I have been struggling with the ability to let go and be able to trust. We are at the stage of our R that we have really discussed all of the details, understand the whys and he hows etc., but I just continue to need reassurance that there is sufficient understanding so that I can feel safe to trust again. I know that this is on me, that I need to do my own healing, but the question or concern that continues to plague me at this rage was illustrated in a post over in R where the person described the WS as someone who was "taken over" during the affair.

The kind of thinking that was so easily able to happen where the Wayward is able to completely re-write the marriage history and villainize the BS, how they are able to be so cold and detached... How does anyone know that this kind of thinking will not take over again in the future? I felt like I was living with a stranger. It was quite shocking to me, and I wonder how that faulty thinking could have even happened at all, so I cannot imagine how my Husband would be able to keep it from happening again.


BW: 44 Me
WH:48
DDay1 9-9-13 (18th Wedding Anniversary) 6 wk EA, 1 wk PA
DDay2: 10-25-13 EA/PA with same OW 12 1/2 years ago for 3 months
OW: XGF Predator who never stopped pursuing WH
DS 13
DD 11

Posts: 603 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York
StartingFreshNow
Member
Member # 44224
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, September 26th (Friday)

losthope -

Your WS does not want a R. I can't speak for him and say what it is he does want, but R involves remorse, honesty, and complete transparency. He's offering you none of this. I would rethink my desire to be with him with this kind of behavior. If he doesn't think what he did was wrong, he's likely going to repeat it.


Me: WW
2 young kids
DDay - Dec 2013 (EA), TT
DDay 2 - Jul 28, 2014 (PA), TT
DDay 3 - end of Aug/beg of Sep 2014
(All the same A)

Posts: 303 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: USA
Kleenex
New Member
Member # 43027
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, September 26th (Friday)

Sorry if this has been asked before but....

I recently gave my WH a list of questions which he says he answered to the best of his ability but there were some that he couldn't answer completely because he said that he has blocked out that period of time because he hates what he has done and he just wants to try and forget about it. Have other WS blocked that time out ? is that a "normal" way for them to cope with what they have done?


Posts: 1 | Registered: Apr 2014
EmbraceTheChange
Member
Member # 43247
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, September 26th (Friday)

Question 1: can you have an intense affair with the AP without wanting sex?

My husband had a very intense EA with a COW. Lasted around 4 mths. Lots of texts during the entire day (from morning to night). He went to a happy hour, gym, ice-skating rink date. Lots of walks during the day, and of course lunches, runs in the mornings around the company site. They also hugged in the car park, and were nearly reported to HR for inappropriate behavior. She sent him Victoria secret pics asking him for his opinion, told him she was vacuuming in her underwear. She talked about her headlights being on, and he said that it would be the gentleman things to check them out.
Anyway, I keep asking him when he started sleeping with her. He keeps telling me that this wasn't important. It was more the fact that she was into him that made him feel good, that she found him interesting, that she found him attractive. Having sex with her would be cheating (as opposed to what? Cheating?).

Anyway, any WS who was feeling the same? Spending time with the AP, but not wanting to go to bed with them? I do find it hard to believe. Forgot to say that we were not sleeping together during the A (kids in bed with us), he didn't want to go through having a vasectomy anymore (because it would hurt!), and once we went in HB he fancied a bj. But he passed a lie detector in April. Apparently no sex happened.

Question 2: why was the AP interested in our home life?

The AP seemed very interested in our life. Seriously. She wanted to know what I was doing during the day with the kids, what we were during at weekends, etc. She even offered to babysit so I could go on a date with my husband. In the emails that I found, she's talking about her family, how lovely her husband is, how much she enjoys being with them. So my question would be: if you're an AP, why would you want to know about the other AP's day to day with his family? Obviously you're not with them, so why would you want to know how much fun they have in their life?

Thanks for your answers. These questions have been bugging me for a while!


Some days I feel we will make it. And some days I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to start afresh.

BH: me (40)
WH: him (45)
5 kids
Married for 20 years

My husband had an EA (prob PA but doesn't admit it) with a co-worker last year.


Posts: 123 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Texas
Macsecond
Member
Member # 43972
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, September 26th (Friday)

EmbraceTheChange,

my experience was similar, except geography played a big part in the A not becoming a PA. He was thousands of miles away, but when the possibility of it becoming a PA arose, I shut things down because that was definitely a line I couldn't and didn't want to cross. I was tempted, the hormones made that a difficult line to draw, but in the end I fully realized that that was really REALLY cheating and that I had already done so much bad already by just engaging in an EA.

As for interest in home life and mundane everyday stuff, AP and I did the same too. It was another way to bond and become close. We would take pics of food we were eating, he'd take pics of scenery and family while on vacation, I'd share pics of my running route and my kids. It was part of the "friendship" even though it sickens me now that I allowed that. Perhaps justification that there was more to our A than just sexual stuff. It was nothing to do with his wife or family, or my husband and mine, just another way of getting to know each other more deeply or profoundly, and a chance to vicariously live in their day-to-day world with them.


Me - WW (38)
Him - BH (36)
Married almost 14 years.
2 kids
DDay - July 4, 2014 (I confessed to 5 month OEA)
In IC and MC, working on R.

Posts: 156 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
RealityBlows
Member
Member # 41108
Default  Posted: 7:30 PM, September 26th (Friday)

Dear Wayward Women: My WW and I have been married for 22 years. She is unable O with PIV. She states she has never O'd via PIV with any partner-including her AP. She claims that her affair was not a quest for O and that she is completely satisfied with our sex life.
In spite of that, I have found, via internet files post DD, her researching sexual chemistry issues and she forbids me to attend her IC sessions because she says they discuss things that would hurt my feelings. Her affair was almost completely sexual in nature. She says she never had any other emotional interest in the AP and I have seen no evidence of such. She claims that her affair was ego, and self esteem driven and the sex was rewarding only in the fact that it was different and with a new partner. Other than that, she says it wasn't anything special.
Anyway, I do not want to be with someone who doesn't love me completely, and in everyway. I don't want her to make concessions that may come back to haunt us later. I don't want her to rug sweep a sexual compatibility issue because she is afraid of D.

How can I ensure this does not happen? How can I tell that she is sincerely satisfied in this department? Can you be married to someone for 22 years and be sexually dissatisfied and have it finally result in an affair 22 years later?


Posts: 53 | Registered: Oct 2013
womaninflux
Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, September 27th (Saturday)

One very difficult thing for me in the reconciliation process is to wrap my head around the YEARS of lying in my relationship with my husband. Not just the time the affair was going on, but the years leading up to it. Probably more lies than I even realize, and some of it is stuff that has nothing to do with the A or our marriage but it seems so weird to lie about (he lied to me when I first met him that his father was a doctor who specialized in one area but was really a doctor that was a generalist - says he lied because the specialty sounded more impressive). After DD, my memory was flooded with all sorts of realizations of the lies and exaggerations, things I dismissed at the time. It is very painful to realize that someone you really respected at one point doesn't respect you at any level.

I also don't embrace the marriage therapist's notion of "well is he doing that now?" As if that is enough to wipe away all of the past wrongs.


Questions for WS:

When you lied to your BS during and after the affair, did you panic on the inside or was it effortless and robotic? Were there times when you were hoping - on some level - BS would challenge what you were asserting as the truth? Did you walk away thinking "Wow that was a close call" after once again satisfying your BS inquiry about something with some exaggeration of a partial truth? Did you ever reach a point where you were astounded you were still getting away with this?

What was this all about: He yelled at me about money being spent on a home remodeling job but he was spending money on wining and dining, travel and luxury items for his AP. How could he not be aware of how illogical that was.


Was lying always a fairly benign thing for you in your life? Was it a progressive thing for you? Did you realize you were getting really good at it?

Also, did you lie to the AP routinely? Even just little lies as excuses for one thing or another? Or did you feel like your AP was one person you could be completely honest with?

Would you go to hotels in your city for the fantasy of it all even if your AP had their own apartment?

One more thing: What does your BS's forgiveness of your infidelity and your part in the issues in your marriage look like to you?


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 897 | Registered: Jun 2013
messedup96
Member
Member # 35936
Frustrated  Posted: 6:17 PM, September 27th (Saturday)

Why? Is it the thrill of not being caught? and aren't you scared of getting a divorce if you do get caught What are your reasons to stay? What have you WS done to reconcile with your BS? I mean yes some of are kids are young but what if their older and see the hurt on the BS face or even the WS face my kids know unfortuneitly. what if the OW/OM stalks not only you and your kids but you BS as well?
Thank you for letting me ask questions


BS me 36
Dirtbag 36
1st A DD July 20th 1996 OW also married
2nd A DD Oct 19th 2002
3rd A DD July 17th 2012
2nd and 3rd With same psycho serial married men cheater gutter fish troll
Married 16 thisnov
Together 17 this dec
Friends 24next marc

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: IL
Imissmyhusb
Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 6:25 PM, September 27th (Saturday)

Hey SI,

For those WS who knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they wanted to remain in their M once they were found out, how many of you would continue to pursue your BS to R if he/she wanted to S or D? And for how long would you try to get BS back? Months? Years?
What would cause you to give up, even if D was filed and finalized? I see some members who D'd then R'd and got remarried. Many posts mention a remorseful WS will do whatever it takes, move heaven and earth...


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 229 | Registered: Mar 2014
PainfulReminder
New Member
Member # 41146
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, September 28th (Sunday)


For those WS who knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they wanted to remain in their M once they were found out, how many of you would continue to pursue your BS to R if he/she wanted to S or D? And for how long would you try to get BS back? Months? Years?
What would cause you to give up, even if D was filed and finalized? I see some members who D'd then R'd and got remarried. Many posts mention a remorseful WS will do whatever it takes, move heaven and earth..
.

I don't think I can answer this. My plan was to take the kids and go to my parents if he wanted me out. If he threw me out without the kids (I didn't think he would as I was a sahm.) I was going to go to a friends.

But I don't know what my plab of action would have been. I know I never didn't want him so i imagine I would have did my darnedest to get him back. I think I would have waited a long time. I am not much of a dater.

[This message edited by PainfulReminder at 12:17 PM, September 28th (Sunday)]


Posts: 40 | Registered: Oct 2013
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

RealityBlows
Can you be married to someone for 22 years and be sexually dissatisfied and have it finally result in an affair 22 years later?

I hope you know, truly, that even if your WW was sexually dissatisfied, it didn''t cause her affair. She made a choice to lie and cheat, and I hope for your sake (and hers) that she''s working to become a safe partner now.

How can I tell that she is sincerely satisfied in this department?

Ultimately you can only rely on her word. You want to be with someone who loves you completely and is sincerely satisfied sexually? You cannot control or change WW, so you pretty much have two choices: believe your WW is that person (or wait for her to change), or leave her and hope to find it in someone else. Well, or stay M and accept that you may always wonder if she''s telling the truth when she continues to insist she is satisfied.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
heartbroken0903
Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 2:00 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

When you lied to your BS during and after the affair, did you panic on the inside or was it effortless and robotic?

Effortless and robotic

Were there times when you were hoping - on some level - BS would challenge what you were asserting as the truth?

Not at all. I was hoping he'd just leave me alone to do what I wanted.

Did you walk away thinking "Wow that was a close call" after once again satisfying your BS inquiry about something with some exaggeration of a partial truth?

Occasionally, I'm sure...although I don't remember any time in particular.

Did you ever reach a point where you were astounded you were still getting away with this?

Yes. And I was extra pissed that I was caught when I had only one more week to go that I needed to get away with it.

Was lying always a fairly benign thing for you in your life?

I always lied to get out of trouble, but I wouldn't say it was a benign thing. I knew it was wrong and on some level even as a child I knew it was harmful and destroyed trust, but I didn't care.

Was it a progressive thing for you?

I don't know. I just always remember doing it. I don't remember it ever escalating to a different point...it was always there.

Did you realize you were getting really good at it?

Yes.

Also, did you lie to the AP routinely?

I don't recall ever lying to the OM deliberately. The biggest lie ended up being one I never intended to be a lie...that I would divorce my H for him.

Even just little lies as excuses for one thing or another?

No.

Or did you feel like your AP was one person you could be completely honest with?

I lied to him about something when we were dating (before the A). But the A was only 5 and a half months long...I don't think anything came up that I needed to lie about during that time. Again, besides the fact that I was leaving my H.

Would you go to hotels in your city for the fantasy of it all even if your AP had their own apartment?

No. We went to hotels for convenience, in addition to both of our places.

One more thing: What does your BS's forgiveness of your infidelity and your part in the issues in your marriage look like to you?

He has forgiven me, he says, but that doesn't matter to me. I had lots of issues in the marriage besides cheating. I own them and I expect him to own his as well.

Why? Is it the thrill of not being caught?

That was the least desirable aspect of the A. I hated having to sneak around. I wanted to be out in the open with the OM, as we had been before when we dated. I was just too scared to tell my H and divorce him. I was gutless and a coward, but I did not get a thrill from "getting away with it."

and aren't you scared of getting a divorce if you do get caught

I was, but at the time I decided I'd rather have the A and deal with the possibility of divorce rather than stay M and NOT be with the OM again.

What are your reasons to stay?

Unfortunately they are ever-changing. Mostly how I perceive my H will be as a father. A good financial life (our $$$ added together are a pretty good salary). Fun and laughter. The fact that he is mature, grown-up, and a really good person.

What have you WS done to reconcile with your BS?

Tried to choose wisely (by agreeing to get back together after the D), treated kindly, was transparent and an open book, was honest. Among other things.

I mean yes some of are kids are young but what if their older and see the hurt on the BS face or even the WS face my kids know unfortuneitly.

We don't have kids.

what if the OW/OM stalks not only you and your kids but you BS as well?

The OM has no interest in stalking my H. No kids.

For those WS who knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they wanted to remain in their M once they were found out, how many of you would continue to pursue your BS to R if he/she wanted to S or D?

Not me. I wanted to remain in my M but I felt it was further disrespectful of my then-XH to continue to pursue him after he said it was over.


And for how long would you try to get BS back? Months? Years?

About 2 weeks...as long as it took for me to find out he was fucking my former best friend.

What would cause you to give up, even if D was filed and finalized?

See above.

I see some members who D'd then R'd and got remarried.

I would never have started dating him again after the D if I had known the whole truth about him and xBFF. Sometimes I regret it to this day, even though we have remarried. After 4 1/2 years I'm still not too bright.

Many posts mention a remorseful WS will do whatever it takes, move heaven and earth...

I was never and probably could never be that type.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Remarried. Reconciliation is a process and I still struggle.


Posts: 2202 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 2:02 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

Kleenex,

he couldn't answer completely because he said that he has blocked out that period of time because he hates what he has done and he just wants to try and forget about it. Have other WS blocked that time out ? is that a "normal" way for them to cope with what they have done?

Blocking out is a form of coping, but it's hiding, rug sweeping, and not confronting the ugly truth about himself and what he did. Many of us waywards do this. Often it's because we are so ashamed of what we did that we are afraid if you knew the whole truth, you would reject us. Answering all your questions truthfully and completely will do these things:

1. It will help you process this terrible thing he did to you and help you to heal. If he wants to reconcile, he must do this for you.

2. It will help him heal. Letting go of all the lies and deceptions will be a relief to him.

3. It will break the pattern of deception that built walls between you. When there are no more secrets, trust has a chance to return to your relationship.



Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
20WrongsVs1
Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

womaninflux
I also don''t embrace the marriage therapist''s notion of "well is he doing that now?" As if that is enough to wipe away all of the past wrongs.

Of course he can''t erase the past. He can only control his behavior now. Has he stopped lying and exaggerating?

To answer your questions, yes, I lied effortlessly to BH during and after my A''s. And I lied to both APs as well. Before I started IC, I was pretty sure when God handed out consciences, He''d skipped me. I was guilt- and empathy-challenged, to say the least.

What does your BS''s forgiveness of your infidelity and your part in the issues in your marriage look like to you?

Several months, maybe a year or more ago, a BH wrote on SI that he forgave his FWW. He said prior to forgiving her, she''d say, "BH, you forgot to rinse your breakfast dish," and he''d think, "F*ck you, you had an affair!" While the A may never be forgotten, and the pain may never completely go away, forgiveness means accepting your partner as a fallible human being and equal partner in the M, instead of continuing to analyze her actions through the A lens. ETA: IMHO, YMMV, etc., ad infinitum, in case it''s not obvious that I''m hardly the authority on the matter.

As for my part in the issues in our M? Well, my A''s had nothing to do with the real or perceived issues in our M. Right now I''m working on mastering my feelings, and recognizing that no matter what BH (or anyone!) does or says, I can choose to feel sad, angry...or calm.

messedup96
Your questions are pretty broad. In IC and in books after DDay, I learned that sexual deviancy, and the thrill from sneaking around and "getting away with it," is common (but not inevitable!) in CSA survivors. And no, during my A''s I wasn''t afraid of D, I''d convinced myself that BH would be mildly displeased but would quickly forgive me, if I got caught. What I''ve done to R, in a nutshell, is to work on becoming a safe partner and better human being. Weekly IC, on-demand group therapy (that''d be SI), lots of reading.

Imissmyhusb, I''m sorry for what you''re going through. Fortunately for me, I''m not qualified to answer your question. From what I''ve read on SI, there are cases where no matter how remorseful and reformed a WS is, sometimes it''s a deal-breaker for the BS and they D. Just as there are many cases where the WS continues to be a rug-sweeping blame-shifting jerk, but the BS stays anyway. IMO the outcome of the M depends as much (or more) on what the BS is willing to accept and tolerate, as the WS''s behavior and attitude. It takes two.

[This message edited by 20WrongsVs1 at 2:22 PM, September 28th, 2014 (Sunday)]


fWW: 42
BH: 52
DDay: April 21, 2013
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1195 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

Womaninflux,

When you lied to your BS during and after the affair, did you panic on the inside or was it effortless and robotic? .... Was lying always a fairly benign thing for you in your life? Was it a progressive thing for you? Did you realize you were getting really good at it?
During the affair, I wouldn't say it was effortless because I always tried to have some grain of truth to what I told her. I always wanted what I said to have some plausibility. After DDay, it was a lot harder to lie. Panic set in every time she asked questions. How much more of the terrible truth could I conceal? Once I finally let go and gave up all the details of the LTA, all the lies and deceptions, the ONS's, the online EA's, the porn, I felt a huge weight lifted. I finally faced my shame. After that, I didn't want to lie anymore. Of course, since I had been a liar for so long--and evidently a good one--my BW couldn't believe me once I started telling the truth. She had no way of really knowing what was real and what was a lie. It remains frustrating for us both.
What was this all about: He yelled at me about money being spent on a home remodeling job but he was spending money on wining and dining, travel and luxury items for his AP. How could he not be aware of how illogical that was?
I don't know the answer to this. I'm guessing your WH was feeling guilty about what he did and was projecting it on you.
Would you go to hotels in your city for the fantasy of it all even if your AP had their own apartment?
I never wanted to spend money on my AP because it would be taking away money from my family, so I spent very little on her. I never spent money on hotels, although she did. I'd say 95% or more of our sexual encounters were at her home.
Also, did you lie to the AP routinely? Even just little lies as excuses for one thing or another? Or did you feel like your AP was one person you could be completely honest with?
My tag line says it right there--I lied to everyone. I kept all kinds of secrets from my AP, including my online EA's and a large porn blog on tumblr that I ran.
One more thing: What does your BS's forgiveness of your infidelity and your part in the issues in your marriage look like to you?
Forgiveness looks like heaven to me. I'm not sure I will ever receive it from her, but I hope and pray for it every day. I fully own my sh*t. I was broken. I didn't fix me. I didn't even look at me as the cause of the problems in our M. I blamed her. I could only see her issues and I distorted them all out of proportion. Healing me involves recognizing those distortions, seeing things for how they really are, and fixing my issues. I'm now reading Self-Coaching: The Powerful Program to Beat Anxiety and Depression by Joseph Luciani, which I'm finding very insightful. I understand that my BW could forgive me and yet still divorce me. I hope not, but I accept that may be the outcome.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
CanRelate
New Member
Member # 44999
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

New to the site and trying to feel my way around. WH and I are living apart due to his job. Have been for about 3 months. We have had several DDays and have a 1 year old child. After the last DDay in June of this year I had asked if he had kept emails from the A in a new email account. Of course this did not go over well. He swore I was crazy, yada yada. So, no.

Two weeks ago he brought this email issue up again. Threw it in my face that I was crazy because of it. So...of course I went through his main email (he gave me pw's last year).

Found a new gmail account. It appeared he thought that he deleted everything, but unfortunately I found the account.

I brought this up to him and he made up several excuses, blame shifted and got defensive. I had had it. This has been 5 years of crap and I couldn't take it.

Told him I was leaving him and going back to my home town to be with family to get support for me and our child. I needed a time out and couldn't take the lies right now.

He got even more angry. Told me to consider myself divorced if I went home and to not even worry about our M. To him, I am leaving him forever.

I was supposed to move to another state with him after his training was done at the end of Nov. He says I lied to him all along and I am abandoning our life and taking his child away. This is not the case (I had a place secured to rent and was hired at a new job--which he was aware of).

Now after a week he is having mood swings. Going from I love you and want an R to I hate you and I will not call you or our child :(

So after all this BG...whew. Questions:

1. Will separating and living apart for longer hurt my chances of him wanting to R?

2. Should I just not try to call and talk to him? Usually he and our child skype daily. He has not mentioned it?

This sucks. I am trying to make a stand and help myself. I need support and given his lying I don't think it's a good idea to move to a new state with him (no friends, family for support).


BS- 30
WH- 38

One beautiful daughter

5years together and 4 DDays discovered to date after snooping around.

EA, PA, 16 dating/swing/cam sites later.


Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2014
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

messedup96,

There was no thrill in the risk of getting caught. That risk just added to my anxiety.

I stay because after DDay, I saw that my BW really did love me. Before DDay, I had this distorted perception that she didn't really love me--everything she did for me was out of obligation. After DDay, I saw that it was my own problems that put me where I was, not something she did wrong. She didn't make me have an affair. This quote from the movie Juno went through my head at the time, and it really struck home, "Look, in my opinion, the best thing you can do is find a person who loves you for exactly what you are. Good mood, bad mood, ugly, pretty, handsome, what have you, the right person is still going to think the sun shines out your ass. That's the kind of person that's worth sticking with." My BW was that person.

I'm trying very hard to reconcile with my BW. She gave me a roadmap to follow, for which I am truly grateful. I am following it daily. Sometimes I don't do it very well, and she lets me know where I need to improve.

My kids are hurting. The youngest seem to be doing ok, but the oldest is taking it hard. I've been living in the guest room on the first floor since DDay, and it's right across the hall from his bedroom. He hears us argue sometimes after his little brothers are in bed. It really upsets him.

OW didn't stalk my kids so far as I know. She did stalk me for a couple of months despite my NC letter. One day she confronted me in my driveway after I put the little ones on the school bus, blocking me from leaving to go to work. The next day I had a lawyer send her a threatening letter. I haven't heard from her since. OW did stalk my BW, including here on SI, forcing my BW to change her screen name. OW has been kicked off of SI twice because of stalking.

[This message edited by ThatGuyNoMore at 3:56 PM, September 29th (Monday)]


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
messedup96
Member
Member # 35936
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

Thatguynomore,
Thank you these are all the questions I wanted to ask mutual WS but he isn't ready to answer I know he's rugsweeping I know I don't want to force anything I just found it was still going on 2 weeks ago everytime I put WS was spoiling me she would drive by and throw garbage in my drive. I'm glad your willing to work it out with your BS but I'm not sure WS wants to work it out since OW said to my friend its been going on for 4 years WS did get me flowers today which he never does


BS me 36
Dirtbag 36
1st A DD July 20th 1996 OW also married
2nd A DD Oct 19th 2002
3rd A DD July 17th 2012
2nd and 3rd With same psycho serial married men cheater gutter fish troll
Married 16 thisnov
Together 17 this dec
Friends 24next marc

Posts: 126 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: IL
ThatGuyNoMore
Member
Member # 42899
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, September 28th (Sunday)

CanRelate,

1. Will separating and living apart for longer hurt my chances of him wanting to R?
For some people, separation serves as a wake-up call. For others, it's the nail in the coffin of their marriage. With all the lying and blame-shifting your WH is doing, he is not at all remorseful and therefore not serious about R. You didn't do anything wrong. He made the choice to have an A. He should not be blaming you for it. He lied to you and kept secrets from you, and continues to be defensive. If he is remorseful, he would be completely transparent and welcome any opportunity to show that he is no longer carrying on the A or fooling around with anyone else. As long as he is exhibiting wayward behavior, R with him is possible only if you're willing to be a doormat.

2. Should I just not try to call and talk to him? Usually he and our child skype daily. He has not mentioned it?
If he cares, he knows how to reach you. From what you describe, however, it sounds like he only cares for himself.


Me and BW 48
Married 22 years, 4 kids
D-Day 3/5/14
I lied to everyone, including myself.

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: US
Other2014
New Member
Member # 45020
Default  Posted: 2:11 AM, September 29th (Monday)

For the WS specially who were involved with escorts, porn etc , even if you are in recovery do you still get triggered when you notice an attractive woman passing by? What really runs into your mind? How you deal with it? How do you suggest the BS should handle this kind of situations? I cant make peace with the fact that my WH would keep having those urges even when he is with me, how are we ever going to enjoy our time together while being in this constant feeling of insecurity and disrespect.


Me- BS - 31
Him- WS-32 - Highschool sweetheart and one and only bf
DS- 2 yrs
TNA Board escorts, 6-10 in two and half mo, Craigslist casual encounters
DDay- July 12

Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2014
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, September 29th (Monday)

RealityBlows
Can you be married to someone for 22 years and be sexually dissatisfied and have it finally result in an affair 22 years later?

I think if you had a sexless M, then it is possible you are at a higher risk for an A (I know that is not a popular view on SI. I'm not saying it's an excuse to have an A, I'm just saying it puts you at a higher risk). But I do not think just not being able to O via PIV would be enough motivation for an A.

Affair sex is exciting and new. For me it was very physically satisfying. But all the other crap that went along with the A was not. The lies, the stress, the fictional relationship that was going nowhere and the risk to my M and family caused me to end the A even without a DDay. My M is satisfying in many ways that out does the benefit I was receiving in the sexual department with AP. Sex with my H is sweet, loving and combined with everything else is all I need to be satisfied. If I were you I'd believe your WW. Chances are as a male you put a much higher value on sexual satisfaction than she does.

[This message edited by familyfirst at 11:56 AM, September 29th (Monday)]


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
AndreaL
Member
Member # 41522
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, September 29th (Monday)

To those WS who confessed, why did you do it? When you looked into your BS eyes, what did you feel?


Me:35
Hubby:38
Kids ages: 2 and 5
Married: 8 years
DDAY: Dec 1 2013
Affair: 2 months EA and PA
Status: Separted. Sigh...I wish I could forgive 😞

Update: attempting to reconcile


Posts: 214 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Canada
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 11:47 AM, September 29th (Monday)

womaninflux
When you lied to your BS during and after the affair, did you panic on the inside or was it effortless and robotic?

It depends on the level of the lie. If BS would call and say "whatcha doing?" and I was emailing AP, I could lie effortlessly but I always got anxiety when I was lying about going to see AP.
Were there times when you were hoping - on some level - BS would challenge what you were asserting as the truth?

No, never. BS finding out was always my biggest fear
Did you walk away thinking "Wow that was a close call" after once again satisfying your BS inquiry about something with some exaggeration of a partial truth? Did you ever reach a point where you were astounded you were still getting away with this?

I had a few close calls, but in general I became more and more careful as the A went on. For example when I forget to delete my browser history on the home computer one day, I decided I would no longer use my home computer anymore. The one thing I was frequently astounded with was my capacity to lie.
What was this all about: He yelled at me about money being spent on a home remodeling job but he was spending money on wining and dining, travel and luxury items for his AP. How could he not be aware of how illogical that was.

I can only speculate that he was compartmentalizing.
Was lying always a fairly benign thing for you in your life? Was it a progressive thing for you? Did you realize you were getting really good at it?

My regular life did not require lying as a matter of course, so I cannot say it was progressive for me. However I think I've always been more of a rule breaker than follower.
Also, did you lie to the AP routinely? Even just little lies as excuses for one thing or another? Or did you feel like your AP was one person you could be completely honest with?
I cannot remember ever lying to AP
Would you go to hotels in your city for the fantasy of it all even if your AP had their own apartment?

My AP was married, so we went to hotels out of necessity not fantasy

I just want to say it seems some of your questions revolve around if the WS enjoyed lying, or if they thought the BS was dumb for not figuring it out. Both of those could not be farther from the truth for me. I believe the stress from lying and sneaking around aged me. I hated it. And short of planting a GPS on my car, my BS would never have known I was having an A. I was the idiot during my A, not him.


Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
somethingremorse
Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, September 29th (Monday)

NWG --

The kind of thinking that was so easily able to happen where the Wayward is able to completely re-write the marriage history and villainize the BS, how they are able to be so cold and detached... How does anyone know that this kind of thinking will not take over again in the future?

Great question. During our As, lots of us waywards misinterpreted events, or just plain lied to ourselves, as ways to reinforce our wayward thinking. It wasn't just that BW was upset I bought something dumb. In my mind, it was proof that she would never understand me. I'd get depressed and withdrawn, and internally blame BW for my problems.

IMO, I think that this kind of rewriting M history is a later step for me. That is, I first withdraw or stuff an argument to avoid conflict or lie to myself about something that I did. Once I do those things, then I vilianize BW.

Even if she did do or say something hurtful, I try to not take the first step down that bad road. I will confront her, and we will talk it out right there. Plus, I try to be honest with myself at all times. I ask why BW did something, and what my role was in it. That self examination prevents me from projecting everything onto BW.

To boil it down, I try to be honest at all times. Second, I know that the rewriting the M is part of my downward spiral. I am determined to not take the first step on that path, so I won't find a need to blame my BW for our M problems.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 560 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 12:17 PM, September 29th (Monday)

messedup96
Why? Is it the thrill of not being caught? and aren't you scared of getting a divorce if you do get caught
The thrill of not being caught would be the last reason I had an A. I did everything I did for the simple reason that I was in a vulnerable place in my life, and AP arrived at the same instant and made me feel fantastic. In the beginning of my A I didn't think much about getting caught. I focused on AP and all the good feelings and put any possibility of divorce and getting caught out of my mind. As time went by I became more and more afraid of being caught. I started to see the potential shitstorm more clearly. I can look back and see that my initial infatuation and A fog had started to wear off. It is unbelieveable how little I thought of consequences in the beginning.
What are your reasons to stay?

I looked at my 2 lives - the first being the affair life, the second being my life as a non-lying person who was married to a good man with beautiful children and decided I wanted the package that came with my family. I'm happy with BH, I love him. "Trading" him for AP would only give me a different set of problems. I kick myself every day that I risked what my H and I built together.

Posts: 215 | Registered: Mar 2014
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, September 29th (Monday)

Are there any WSs who have little memory regarding their reactions to the first physical interaction with their AP?

My husband cannot remember his thought process, or even what we were doing, the day of or day after or anything around the first kiss or first sex with OW1. He said he felt guilty, but that was the extent of it. It is very confusing and troubling to me that crossing a physical line, especially when he has NO history of cheating at all, wouldn't garner some kind of mental turmoil or burning into his head what was going on or anything or just..anything at all. From the logs, I can piece together when I think it was, and the very next morning we went on a 2 hour drive together to visit his family, visited a park all day together, etc etc etc - and he says he has no clue if it was on his mind at all or if that's even the right day. Is this common? is this weird? He said it was all compartmentalized, so he felt guilty, then started his truck, drove home, texted her, and the guilt just got added to the pile of "shouldn't be doing this" that he then locked away in his head.


“It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” - Dumbledore

Posts: 559 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
Macsecond
Member
Member # 43972
Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, September 29th (Monday)

AndreaL

To those WS who confessed, why did you do it? When you looked into your BS eyes, what did you feel?

I did it because, even though I ended the A and he'd have no idea it even happened, I couldn't let my BH live a lie. I felt he deserved the truth. I had done tons of reading and research on here and other sites to decide. I knew it was the right thing to do even though I was terrified it would end things completely and I had no idea what his response would be.

When I looked into my BS's eyes before telling him, I felt like I was on a precipice. Our lives would be forever changed, the curtain would be flung open the moment I told him, and I felt so horrible for having hurt him and betrayed him so carelessly without him even knowing it, I was an absolute wreck knowing that I was about to completely destroy everything he thought about me and our relationship in the next breath. I felt ashamed, and unworthy of him.


Me - WW (38)
Him - BH (36)
Married almost 14 years.
2 kids
DDay - July 4, 2014 (I confessed to 5 month OEA)
In IC and MC, working on R.

Posts: 156 | Registered: Jul 2014 | From: Canada
Ascendant
Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, September 29th (Monday)

To any WS that was in a "double betrayal" situation:

I know that often the WS rewrites the marital history (or just feels resentment in general) with regards to the BS, and that it can fuel the affair....but what 'reason' did your AP give for 'being ok' with hurting your BS, since they obviously knew them as well?


I refuse to let a wound ruin me.
**Guts over fear.**

Posts: 2106 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
CanRelate
New Member
Member # 44999
Default  Posted: 10:24 PM, September 29th (Monday)

Thatguynomore, thank you so much for your response. I feel like I have been going out of my mind. WH continues to chide me and remind be that by separating I am walking out on our marriage. I just want to shout at him to stop.

I know it may seem like just a response back to my question but it helped me ground myself and regroup. Thank you for that. This continues to be very difficult.


BS- 30
WH- 38

One beautiful daughter

5years together and 4 DDays discovered to date after snooping around.

EA, PA, 16 dating/swing/cam sites later.


Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2014
Topic Posts: 463