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User Topic: WH told me I crossed the line
Chinadoll30
Member
Member # 43131
Default  Posted: 6:51 AM, June 30th (Monday)

During a very heated discussion last night, WH told me I crossed the line. Cue me losing my ever loving mind. It was bed time, and thoughts always run wild when I lay down. So I started asking. WH was feeling "fragile" so after a few minutes, he asked if we could stop talking about it as he hates it being the last thing we discuss before sleep. "It messes with him". I didn't really oblige, just started talking about the relationship in general. Now, rewind, right before the affair, our relationship was awful. I contacted a realtor about selling our house and told WH he needed to leave. He begged the whole time to give him another chance, he loved me, picked me, would do anything for us, yada yada. Then engaged in a 2 week PA while telling me these things. So back to last night. I was so upset, so angry at him, so hurt by his lies that I said "I wish I had just listed the house and gone ahead with the divorce and started dating". And he replied "you just crossed a line". (This was after much negative back and forth). And I lost it. Screaming "I crossed a line by saying I would date?!?! You f-ing did it!!!!!! You tell me I crossed a line???". Only with a lot more vulgarity and profanity. I just can't process what he thinks. Me talking about dating is crossing the line, but he actually had sex with some awful woman! How does that make sense? In general he is very remorseful, although he does tend to get hung up on how bad he feels, how guilty, and not as attentive to how he made ME feel. He is still a selfish selfish man. He's working on it, though. I'm not sure what answers I am asking for. Just any insight? Any thoughts?


"We must see all scars as beauty. Okay? This will be our secret. Because take it from me, a scar does not form on the dying. A scar means 'I survived'." -Chris Cleave

Posts: 308 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Philadelphia
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 7:48 AM, June 30th (Monday)

China-
((Gently))
For a long while, I felt like anything I did or said could be trumped by the fact that my H had an affair. He felt bad about staying up late? Too bad! He felt attacked by something I said? So what?

But, truthfully, BSes are responsible for their words, as well. Many waywards live in fear that their BSes are going to pack up and take off. You said something very hurtful, and probably scary, to your WS. He still has feelings, no matter how terribly he messed up.

We all have those moments early on when we maybe cross the line and say hurtful, ugly things. But, the goal is to get to a point where we own that behavior and treat the WS with respect as well. That doesn't mean they don't deserve all the anger, etc. that they earned, and that you don't get to express it. But, as I think you'd agree that you shouldn't punch a WS, it isn't ok to verbally assault them either, or just say things to hurt them.

Understandable to want to, but not ok.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:50 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
mozzchops
Member
Member # 42896
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, June 30th (Monday)

it isn't ok to verbally assault them either, or just say things to hurt them.

Lets agree to disagree with this!

I believe you are allowed to verbally assault for a period of time after Dday. After all, your speaking your pain.



The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Posts: 118 | Registered: Mar 2014
I think I can
Member
Member # 17756
Default  Posted: 10:26 AM, June 30th (Monday)

Yeah, I disagree too, bionicgal, sorry. She really did feel that. It doesn't necessarily sound like a constructive fight, but I don't get the feeling that she said that just to hurt him. I think the WS seeing the pain of the BS is pretty crucial. And seeing the disconnect of their attitudes and reality. You gotta call them on their bullshit.

Not sure he sees it though, china.


I'm not the winner, I'm the prize.

Posts: 8829 | Registered: Jan 2008
RidingHealingRd
Member
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, June 30th (Monday)

How does that make sense?

It doesn't.

IMO he was merely trying to turn the table on you. He did not want to have any discussion about his A, you persisted (as you have every right to), and he found an opportunity to attempt to silence you.

"I wish I had just listed the house and gone ahead with the divorce and started dating"

Nothing, absolutely nothing in this ^^^ statement = crossing the line.

it isn't ok to verbally assault them either, or just say things to hurt them.

^^^ I too disagree with this. My WH response to my ENDLESS rants and rage = "I deserve that" ~> and that's just another reason that we are 3 1/2 years out in successful R...He "sucked it up" until I processed the horrendous hurt that he intentionally inflicted. Too bad for him that it took me about 2 years.

Regrets? None.


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2124 | Registered: Nov 2011
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, June 30th (Monday)

You're not very far out from dday. What you said was fine. It is ok to vent your anger. It is actually healthy to get that poison out. His job, as remorseful husband who says he wants to R, is to listen to your anger and allow you to get it out. He needs to hear how you feel. There is a difference between verbal abuse and speaking the truth.

I would imagine what he said triggered a lot of painful memories for you. He crossed line after line..but you expressing your regret that you listened to his pretty words and all the while he was cheating on you...that had you not fallen for his lies then you might be in a place of happiness now, instead of dealing with the pain of being betrayed....that is crossing a line?

He was out of line,IMO.

And while,yes, mAny waywards live in fear that they will be left...there are many who want to rugsweep and nit talk about it. They use their BS's pain and anger as an excuse to not talk about it. I'm not sure what kind of wayward you're dealing with. Does he have no problem talking about it any other time? Is he doing what he needs to do to repair the damage he has cause?

If you read the wayward forum, you will see that most of them understand,accept, and some even welcome their BS's anger...because they understand its imperative that we be heard.

[This message edited by confused615 at 10:43 AM, June 30th (Monday)]


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling?

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7743 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, June 30th (Monday)

CD - you didn't cross any line.

Sorry BG - add me to the disagree list. Nothing CD said was abusive, and if that's what she thinks, why not bring it up?

CD - your WH doesn't sound remorseful. He's still all about him. He doesn't want to talk at bedtime. He doesn't want to hear you think about leaving. He he he! He sounds regretful that he's messed up his life, did something stupid, etc, but he doesn't sound remorseful. Saying you crossed a line, instead of understanding why you would think such a thing, tells me there's no real remorse inside of him yet.

Honestly, I'd start the 180.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, June 30th (Monday)

I think it is understandable. I think we all do it, and like I said:

We all have those moments early on when we maybe cross the line and say hurtful, ugly things. But, the goal is to get to a point where we own that behavior and treat the WS with respect as well.

But, assuming we have a remorseful wayward who is working hard, answering questions, trying to help us heal, IMHO, threatening to leave, or saying one should have left, is counterproductive. It may be how we feel, but I know when I have said things like that, (and I have) I later regret it. These things can leave scars as well, make the wayward defensive and close up, and escalate the argument.

There is probably a truer sentiment under there - a real feeling that can be expressed that isn't meant to hurt. "I wish I had just listed the house. . " etc., is not a feeling really, it is a thought. I think it is understandable that China has these thoughts this early on, but I also think it is acceptable and understandable for her WS to indicate that he was hurt by it.

Get him to talk about his hurt when you said it China, and you'll be two steps ahead, I think. That way you get to express yourself, and he has to be vulnerable, too.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:52 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, June 30th (Monday)

assuming we have a remorseful wayward

The level of defensiveness shown says, to me, there is no remorse in this WH - only regret.

And, respectfully, wishing she was single, without the house and marriage, is a feeling, not a thought. She feels like she'd be better off if she had moved forward with separation prior to the A. She may not feel like this always, but to me, it's a feeling.

Lashing out is part of the process. I think before we remind people that 'WH has feelings too', we should remember that as well. There is hurt and anger that goes deeper than we imagined anything could, and releasing that is absolutely part of the process.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
MindMonkey
Member
Member # 41679
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, June 30th (Monday)

Almost a year from Dday and I say the same things. Generally not at bedtime since I don't want her crying while I try to sleep. Normally it's in the car on a drive.

I don't just blurt out "I should have divorced you", but there are days I certainly feel like it would have been the better option. There are pros to staying married and pros for divorce. Two of those are my dignity and dating someone who isn't going to cheat on me.

I see nothing wrong with sharing that. I want her to know there are pros to divorce so she knows how high the bar is to R. I'm an engineer and I'm going to go with the better list, sorry. But not really.


BH, 35, CoD, Military...sober since 6/17/14
FWW, EA/PA (x2) different OM coworkers
Reconciling since 8/1/13
100% ready to file at next dealbreaker...don't test me.

Posts: 209 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: NoVA
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, June 30th (Monday)

I just read your post from June 20, "Feel like I'm doing all the work."


He has done the easy things..given you transparency..but has done no digging, and he gets mad when you try and get him to talk about it.

Painfulpast is spot on. He is regretful, not remorseful. You absolutely have the right...the need...to talk about this. You have a need to get that anger out and be heard. What you did was not verbal abuse. He isn't doing everything he should be doing to make you feel safe and work on his issues.

[This message edited by confused615 at 11:25 AM, June 30th (Monday)]


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling?

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7743 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, June 30th (Monday)

We all get to set our own boundaries, and they're based on what we want, not logic. On one level, then, you have different boundaries about talking about D & dating. WRT your H's boundary, I think it's another crazy thing WSes say and think - something that comes up time and again, because cheating makes such lousy sense.

On another level, it sounds like you had a very heated discussion that ended badly. That happens from time to time.

On yet another level, you wanted to talk when he didn't want to. The conflict escalated. That happens from time to time.

If you R, I think you both will have to cut each other some slack. You both could say something you don't mean, and R means you'll allow each other to recover.

I don't see anything wrong with what you said, but if your H is a candidate for R, he's got to start accepting responsibility for any stupid comment he makes - by saying, for instance, something like, 'Sorry - I thought you were threatening D, and I want to R. Dating after D is OK; cheating on you is not OK.'
**********************************************

It's natural for BSes to get very angry, but attacking the WS doesn't really help release the anger. Sometimes the BS does it, for sure, but it provides only 'pseudo-relief'. The problem with anger is what it does to the angry person. Attacking others usually just keeps the anger inside.

There are healthy and unhealthy ways to deal with anger. No one is perfect, but the more you choose healthy expressions and the less you choose unhealthy ways, the better for you and for the people around you.

Juts sayin'....

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:28 AM, June 30th (Monday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10430 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, June 30th (Monday)

Chinadoll:

Your cheating spouse is blameshifting and also asking for pity.

It sounds as if he is still self absorbed.

What you said is a normal thing one might say after being betrayed.

Too bad, if he lives in fear that you might leave him. There has to be some consequence to his cheating.

Don't make excuses for his behavior. Do not accept it. If you do, he will likely cheat again because there has been no consequence for his cheating.

He needs to start listening to you so that you can process your pain from his deceit.


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1455 | Registered: May 2014
sri624
Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, June 30th (Monday)

you didnt cross the line. you are still in pain...and it needs to get out. i have learned that the first step in real healing is that the cheater needs to understand clearly just how much his actions have hurt you. getting all of this out can take months. going to weekly ic appointments helped me deal with the anger....so that i could live with him during this awful time....and attempt to r in a constructive way. and even then it was still hard.

a mc is also good for helping to get these feelings across.

saying mean and ugly things during this time is normal. you are hurt and he should understand that. at some point, hopefully that will die down...it will need to if you are to have a successful r. but it will take a long time.

you didnt cross the line. you are just upset.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 1012 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
RidingHealingRd
Member
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, June 30th (Monday)

Attacking others usually just keeps the anger inside.

No, suppressing anger keeps the anger inside.


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2124 | Registered: Nov 2011
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 1:28 PM, June 30th (Monday)

Yikes! Attacking others is only one way of expressing it. IMO & IME, it's one of the less effective ones.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:29 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10430 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, June 30th (Monday)

I am not trying to just be obstinate here, but yes, BSes have a right to express their anger and hurt. But, I see over and over on SI people justifying behavior of BSes just because we are the injured party. I think it is more nuanced than that. Just because you were hurt, doesn't mean you can't hurt others, and that at some point we have to take ownership of that.

Regarding feelings vs thoughts, I read that if you can substitute the word "think" for "feel" then it is a thought. i.e. You can say "I think I should have listed the house, and gone ahead and started dating". Therefore, that is a thought, not a feeling. But, if it is a base feeling, it will not work. i.e. "I think sad," or, "I think hurt" vs. "I feel sad" or "I feel hurt." Make sense?

So, in my opinion, those were thoughts Chinadoll had. Understandable thoughts to have in her situation, but the feeling she was trying to express was deeper. If she can get to the feeling, and communicate it, then I think things will go easier. Same for Mr. Chinadoll.

When my husband told me for the first time that it scared him when I said "I should've just left you there, then -- in the backseat of the truck with AP," it made a huge impact on me. He had feelings too -- not just me. I was hurt, and so was he. We were both scared of the other person giving up. Healing comes from this place where we meet and really see each other. It is hard, and I still struggle with getting to my feelings, vs. thinking.

Just my experience.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 1:46 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Didact
Member
Member # 42867
Default  Posted: 1:48 PM, June 30th (Monday)

I can totally see feeling this way when if you get that pushback during angry argument about WH's A. I'd only say that after reflection in a calmer moment, consider whether you might really have crossed the line or whether he's just being defensive.

There are times during heated "discussions" that I will say things in a very hurtful way to WW. Not untrue things, but things said in a way that are intended to inflict pain rather than communicate.

Just because I am in pain, and because she over the last year behaved in an absurdly reprehensible, selfish and destructive way doesn't mean that it is acceptable to intentionally hurt her, even though it is understandable.

I have apologized when I cross the line. I will do so again, because sometimes the anger causes that.

That said, I think in the heat of that moment if my wife were to call me out right then... I totally understand where you are coming from, that sounds part of our new normal from all this :(


No matter how painful, life either adapts or it dies.

BH (Me) 49
WW 48
Married 1985
D-Day Mar 19, 2014
1 year passionate EA/PA, ended by me on d-day.
Attempting to R


Posts: 240 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: United States
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, June 30th (Monday)

OK - let's just look at the line said - "I wish I would have sold the house and left."

Forgetting everything else - feeling vs thought, hurting a WS, etc. - I don't see this as crossing any lines. That thought, feeling, emotion, desire, whatever, is real in that moment. If the WS doesn't like hearing that, after such a deep betrayal the BS has thoughts of just walking, then the WS is in some pretty heavy denial. After the destruction they willingly brought into the marriage, they'd have to have their head firmly up their ass to think the BS didn't think of leaving, or other similar thoughts. If that scares the WS, tough shit! If they were so scared, they wouldn't have cheated.

If I eat an entire cheesecake every day for a month, I'd have to be an idiot to wonder why my pants didn't fit. Actions have consequences. Yes, I know, they didn't think they'd get caught. Really? Is that an excuse? The BS knows. The WS knew, with every phone call, secret meeting, sext, that they were risking their marriage. They didn't care. Well, now it's out of their hands. If they're scared, that's really on them.

A BS saying they wished that they had walked, to me, isn't even close to the line, let alone over it.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, June 30th (Monday)

PP:
The WS knew, with every phone call, secret meeting, sext, that they were risking their marriage. They didn't care. Well, now it's out of their hands. If they're scared, that's really on them.

You are assuming that affairs are rational. They are, practically by definition, irrational. The dangers/repercussions were theoretical for most waywards. If most waywards were thinking clearly, as you describe, then they wouldn't do what they did. (And, no one would get fat, and no one would get addicted to anything, because we are all nothing but rational creatures.)


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
steppingup
Member
Member # 42650
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, June 30th (Monday)

I'm sorry, that is just insane. He needs to have his head examened.


Her (WW 40s) Me (BH, 40s) very young DS & DD

“Whatever follows after DD is much more crucial than the infidelity action itself” Quote by SI Member Melian40

"I'm a good man, not an option" - Steppingup


Posts: 518 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: CALI
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, June 30th (Monday)

You are assuming that affairs are rational. They are, practically by definition, irrational. The dangers/repercussions were theoretical for most waywards. If most waywards were thinking clearly, as you describe, then they wouldn't do what they did. (And, no one would get fat, and no one would get addicted to anything, because we are all nothing but rational creatures.)

BG - at best, you're apologetic for the WS. First, I don't buy the 'irrational, foggy' bit. Yes, there is an element of fantasy, but so what. These are adults, no? The WS knew enough to hide the relationship, lie about their whereabouts, use a fake name on the cell phone for AP, etc. They were absolutely thinking clearly - they hid it because they knew.

IF (and this is a big IF) I'm going to give any leeway due to being irrational, I'm going to give a hell of a lot more to a new BS and their irrational behavior.

Forgive me, but your posts, particularly in this thread, seem almost as if you've come to a full understanding of the WS, and yet have forgotten completely what it's like to be a BS. I understand the WS - the fantasy, the escape, the feelings of excitement and all of it. I don't excuse it. As I said, they knew enough to hide it, to lie, to gaslight. The WS is very aware of what they are risking. I will not let them off the hook with some made up definition of an affair. It is not 'irrational'. It is 'betrayal'. The betrayed does in fact become irrational, suffer from physical and emotional trauma, and is the one, imo, that deserves more, not less, empathy and understanding. The WS is a WS voluntarily. The BS was thrown into this pit without warning or desire. I'm not sure why you've forgotten some of this, and maybe you haven't, but your posts tend to say that you favor understanding the WS over the BS. On that, we'll have to disagree, because while I may have empathy for the WS, it will never, ever, come close to the empathy I feel for the BSs here and elsewhere.

And I'll say it again - a BS saying they wish they'd left, to me, isn't remotely close to the line. Sorry, but it's just not. It's a consequence that was known well in advance, hence the sneaking, lying, gaslighting, etc. Now the piper is discussing payment, and the WS is scared. Boofuckinghoo.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 3:11 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
RidingHealingRd
Member
Member # 33867
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, June 30th (Monday)

t/j

If most waywards were thinking clearly, as you describe, then they wouldn't do what they did

Bionicgal...In what way is a Wayward not thinking clearly?

Are they confused as to their marital status when they engage in sex with another person?

Are they confused about what actions make a person happy vs completely devastated?

Seriously, I do not understand this "not thinking clearly" ~ I see this as a poor excuse.

My WH knew that what he was about to do was WRONG and was well aware that it would be extremely hurtful. He even stated that he was concerned that if I did find out I would divorce him (isn't that why the WS are not open about their A?). He was thinking clearly. He was being a selfish prick who thought he would not get caught because he is so skilled at deception.

[This message edited by RidingHealingRd at 3:44 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


ME: 54 BS
HIM: 61 WH
Married: 28 years
D'Day: 10/29/10
in R 4 years and it's working but he is putting 200% into it (as he should) to make it right again.

The truth hurts, but I have never seen it cause the pain that lies do.


Posts: 2124 | Registered: Nov 2011
LostAngry
Member
Member # 40808
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, June 30th (Monday)

I agree with painfulpast and RHR. WS rationally make justifications as to why they deserve to have an affair. They plan, scheme and devise lies to cover up their activities. They want the fun and games without the consequences. It is not the *fog* or irrational thinking or unclear thinking that leads to an affair or covering up actions while in the affair. It is making a decision to behave badly and also try to cheat the consequences.

CD, you didn't go too far or cross any lines. Many BS have thoughts of *it would be better if I left* and it is completely acceptable to state those thoughts and feelings. After all, you would not be having them had your spouse stayed faithful. It is now his job to hear the hard truth, and that hard truth is at times we, as betrayeds, look and know life might be better without the extra weight and burden of our WS.


"How people treat you is their Karma. How you react is yours."
Wayne Dyer

Posts: 135 | Registered: Sep 2013
peoplepleaser
Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, June 30th (Monday)

This is all so subjective. Everyone has great points here, though I disagree that it is appropriate to verbally attack or assault anyone. While it's not appropriate, it IS understandable and given the situation that occurs between a WS and BS, a remorseful WS would be willing to give some allowances.

I do agree with bionicgal, and after reading the posts it seems that she might just have struggled to explain why she said what she said.

First, there is no concrete line. Every couple and every situation is different. This argument and the statement in particular are nuanced by the context in which it occurred.

Your WS said you crossed a line. He gets to determine where HIS lines are. That is one for him. You are free to argue the legitimacy of that line based on the pain he caused you.

Your WS tried to ask for some space. I disagree with the notion that WS's should ALWAYS be available to talk about the A. That's a great ideal and if they can it is wonderful for helping the BS heal. However, our WS's are people with their own emotions, frustrations and limits. One might even argue that their brokenness gets in the way of their ability to express and fully feel remorse for their actions a lot of the time, rendering them less capable of shouldering, witnessing and processing our pain. I'm not saying this is right, I'm just recognizing that it tends to exist.

If our aim in communicating with our WS's is to punish them or shame them, then communicating in this way is a good way to do it. If the aim is to gather actual information or find an emotional connection, this form of communication is going to create barriers.

IMHO when we decide to R we make the decision to come together as a team and work toward increasing communication by respecting each others emotional safety and communication styles toward a better connection. To that end, continuing conversations when one person clearly states they are not in a good space for it is disrespectful. And I think you saw how poorly that worked, as it turned into an argument and your need for compassion or validation was not only not met, but negative feelings were exacerbated.

Early in the process we have a great deal of pain. This is a huge trauma. Communication sucks, as we are reeling. It is to be expected that we will lash out, say horrible things, throw the As in the face of the WS every time they express their own feeling or need, etc, etc. At some point, though, a shift needs to occur in which both people see the A as something that happened to "us" and approach it as such.

Did you do anything wrong saying what you said? I don't know. It's not for me to judge. Only you know that. It seems an appropriate thing to say in the interest of sharing your thoughts and feelings openly. The way in which it was said or the timing of it (the delivery) might have been the main problem.

Having read some of your other posts, though, it seems that you are doing much of the work. Your attempts to engage him in the healing process are causing you further pain. If he can't be what you need right now, forcing the issue will only cause more hurt and resentment making R more difficult in the long run. You have some difficult choices to make.

Keep in mind, I struggled with this, too. Every time WS said anything about her feelings or difficulty in our relationship I responded with, "Really? You tell ME about (whatever it was)? Who f%^ked someone with their phone?" I was angry. Yes, she deserved it. Did it help? Not really. I'm not sure responding differently at the time would have helped, either. Distance is what helped. Her having time on her own to figure out what was really important.

Communication is a huge issue for all couples. Figuring out how to communicate better will be important for R. And it sucks to have to do your own work and watch what you say when you are struggling from the trauma of someone else's damaging decisions that wrecked your life as you knew it and in which you had no control.


WS: 39
BS: 39
DS: 6
9 year relationship
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013 with TT
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011 with TT
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 728 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 5:00 PM, June 30th (Monday)

You are free to argue the legitimacy of that line based on the pain he caused you.

Respectfully, this line should read:

You are free to argue the legitimacy of that line based on and compared to the actions he deemed acceptable

This is a man that had an affair. If that is a 'line' he's willing to cross, he's got some serious ego issues if someone saying they would rather not be in the pain his actions caused is 'over the line'.

The line is determined by a person's own actions - he felt an A was 'ok', so a statement saying someone doesn't want the pain from his A isn't over the line.

Sorry - but while I agree verbal abuse isn't ok, I disagree vehemently with anyone saying a BS wishing they had left (instead of being in this amount of pain) is abusive. It may not be something a WS wants to hear, but not wanting to hear something does NOT make it abusive.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 5:01 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
Dare2Trust
Member
Member # 21183
Default  Posted: 5:42 PM, June 30th (Monday)

ChinaDoll,

You stated- "You aren't sure what answers you're looking for...and you asked for poster's insight.

I agree: You didn't step over any line; and your WH's response to you was hurtful and inappropriate.

I took the time to read all of your posts before replying - and wanted to offer a few comments:
You'v made positive steps to help you deal with your WH's very destructive, hurtful adulterous affair.
--You are also dealing with your WH's drug addiction to prescription medications and his, recent 3rd hospitalization for REHAB.
--You are seeing your own IC and both you and your WH are seeing a MC.
--You are going to ALANON.
--You will receive your RN degree in December
--You were briefly hospitalized to gain control of your own Depression.

Throughout these positive steps you've taken to help you deal with your WH's continuous drug addiction and his 3 REHABs - you've been a SAHM with 3 children, including a 9month old Baby.

Can I ask:
What exact steps has your WH taken to HELP YOU HEAL from the destructive CHOICES he's made in this marriage, and the ongoing pain he's caused you?

Everything isn't about HIM; and his Rehab. OR, if your questions come at a time when he may be feeling "fragile."

Personally - I'd be enraged if I was home with 3 young children while my husband was in REHAB for the 3rd time; and during his treatment period his focus wasn't 100% on getting CLEAN AND SOBER; ....Rather than WH finding the time in REHAB to develop a "relationship" with his to-be-affair OW.

So, I'd feel entitled to have ALL OF MY QUESTIONS about my WH's affair answered any time I asked them...day or night!

I wanted to add:
You posted that your WH's affair was "outed to you by the OW's betrayed husband."
And you still have some contact with OW Betrayed Husband..."and he's doing a lot of rug-sweeping regarding the affair; and he really doesn't answer any of your questions.

I have two comments about this topic:
--You need to remain aware that your husband did not end this affair on his own because he felt guilty and knew it was wrong; and he came to you and "confessed."
--You must remember: NO CONTACT means exactly that - No Contact.
So - I would suggest that you end all contact with the OW's husband. He has nothing more to add to your situation...and all of your affair questions need to be answered by your husband.

Congratulations on your upcoming RN Degree in December - that is a wonderful accomplishment!
AND - as you posted - You will now have the ability to be a self-sufficient woman, financially...IF your WH will not make THE CHOICE to end his DRUG ADDICTION and take the correct steps to fix this infidelity mess he made!


Me BS 59
WH 58
Married 19 years
D-Day Nov 3, 2005
Child: Adopted Daughter 21 College Student now

I can understand being alone; but I hate being with someone and feeling lonely.


Posts: 6152 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Texas
wincing_at_light
Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, June 30th (Monday)

I'm going to state right off that I don't think the original poster crossed any sort of rational line that's worth commenting on. The fact that her WS has deemed it a line tells me he's probably a pretty big fucking wuss, but that's just my take.

That said, I also believe 100% that the WS has the right to set whatever wuss boundaries they want. They're still human beings and still have the right to be butt-hurt, self-involved little pansies who are all about themselves and their boo-boos if they want to be (i.e., the sorts of people for whom "boundaries" is listed in the dictionary as a synonym for "manipulation".)

As the BS, you can choose to respect those boundaries and try to work with your WS on expressing your hurt in a way that doesn't violate their terms...or you can realize exactly the sort of person you're dealing with and use that information to make informed decisions about whether this is really the sort of person worth investing in for the next x number of years until they grow themselves the fuck up.

(I was never very good at the whole "safe place for your WS to express themselves emotionally" rhetoric, so you might keep that in mind if attempting to put anything I've said into practice.)

BTW, does your husband ever stand on the bed in his underwear and shout "Respect mah authoritah!"...because this story definitely gives him a Cartman vibe, which makes me curious.

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 6:46 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6750 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
painfulpast
Member
Member # 41038
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, June 30th (Monday)

BTW, does your husband ever stand on the bed in his underwear and shout "Respect mah authoritah!"...because this story definitely gives him a Cartman vibe, which makes me curious.


The stones from my enemies, these wounds will mend
but I cannot survive the roses from my friends

Posts: 1898 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: East Coast
rachelc
Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:54 PM, June 30th (Monday)

(I was never very good at the whole "safe place for your WS to express themselves emotionally" rhetoric, so you might keep that in mind if attempting to put anything I've said into practice.)

oh God, i love it when WAL shows up. Word on this quote, and I say that as a WS. Throw water in my face in the middle of the night if you need to talk, I don't give a shit. We have each other's back or we don't. Case closed.


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

“Follow your intuition. Be smart, be brave. Tell the truth and don’t take any shit.”


Posts: 5329 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, June 30th (Monday)

And I'll say it again - a BS saying they wish they'd left, to me, isn't remotely close to the line. Sorry, but it's just not. It's a consequence that was known well in advance, hence the sneaking, lying, gaslighting, etc. Now the piper is discussing payment, and the WS is scared. Boofuckinghoo.

Respectfully, painfulpast, it is really her WS that determines his line, not you or me. And I wasn't saying that she did cross the line, as much as I am saying he felt that way, and that he has a right as a human being in a relationship to feel that way, and that she needs to hear it, whether she can honor it now or not. I am assuming they are both there voluntarily at this point.

And:

and yet you have forgotten completely what it's like to be a BS.

I find this humorous. Read my posts in this thread carefully and without reactivity, and I think you'll see you are incorrect. I am not going to go through the effort of making an argument about it, or defending myself, but that is quite a thing to say.

Irrational does not mean someone did not betray someone. Irrational does not mean they are not responsible, not accountable, or anything of that nature. Irrational means they were not thinking like you or I are now when they did what they did, and that one can waste a lot of time and energy imagining they were. It doesn't, however, excuse it.

I do have beliefs about infidelity that may not jive with you or your situation, or anyone else's for that matter. That is fine. I do think the things I said regarding looking at both sides in an argument such as CD was describing is something most professionals would support, and is certainly what our MC would have advised.

So, if one merely wants a big "rah rah" about BSes having carte blanche to say what they want to waywards, then I suppose one need not read my posts. But since this is the Reconciliation forum, I do think I can post here with both sides in mind -- with not just a hurt BS in mind, but a hopefully someday reconciled couple in mind. Because in the end, for a successful reconciliation, you do, indeed, need to hear both sides, regardless of how horribly a wayward may have behaved.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 9:46 PM, June 30th (Monday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, June 30th (Monday)

Peoplepleaser,
Yes, to your whole post. I feel a little less alone tonight!


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
sinsof thefather
Member
Member # 29295
Default  Posted: 2:34 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I'm going to state right off that I don't think the original poster crossed any sort of rational line that's worth commenting on. The fact that her WS has deemed it a line tells me he's probably a pretty big fucking wuss, but that's just my take.

That said, I also believe 100% that the WS has the right to set whatever wuss boundaries they want. They're still human beings and still have the right to be butt-hurt, self-involved little pansies who are all about themselves and their boo-boos if they want to be (i.e., the sorts of people for whom "boundaries" is listed in the dictionary as a synonym for "manipulation".)

As the BS, you can choose to respect those boundaries and try to work with your WS on expressing your hurt in a way that doesn't violate their terms...or you can realize exactly the sort of person you're dealing with and use that information to make informed decisions about whether this is really the sort of person worth investing in for the next x number of years until they grow themselves the fuck up.

Exactly.


...second star to the right and straight on till morning.

Posts: 1890 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: UK
mozzchops
Member
Member # 42896
Default  Posted: 3:18 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)


I also crossed the line last night.
It was late, I was tired. Not in a good place the last few days.

So we are in bed and she asks if I want to have sex. I declined and said I was tired, not really in a good place.

Her response?

"Well if your going to reject me then I won't try again"

Reject! How about the massive rejection you did against me!



The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Posts: 118 | Registered: Mar 2014
Unagie
Member
Member # 37091
Default  Posted: 3:58 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I rarely post in R anymore but something about this thread made me want to respond. Firstly to Chinadoll you crossed no lines, he sounds like he was just not in the mood to interact and was already a bit frustrated by the continued conversation.

Secondly while I feel BS's on here have been hurt unbearably and deserve the utmost sympathy, empathy and support I have read some threads where I feel people cross the line. Eventually and not as early out as Chinadoll is but eventually you have to realize that your WS (if they are remorseful) has feelings, emotions and boundaries of their own. In particular remorseful WS have made major changes in thinking and how they view themselves and the world. My ex said things that scarred me and I accepted most of it but there were times I would tell him what you just said hurt me. He'd be angry and I would explain myself. Whether he accepted it or not does not change how it legitimately made me feel.

Thirdly to say to another BS that she no longer understands what it feels like to be a BS because she is trying to express her opinion on interactions between WS and BS is incredibly insulting. Reading that I felt like you took what she went through and made it inconsequential because she had a different opinion.

Lastly we must all eventually get to a place where the A is not every conversation and not the response to all negative communication while in R. There will be times when WS's may say something stupid or negative that have nothing to do with the A, immediately comparing that to their actions during the A is not fair and will not solve anything. Do I understand what they did to their BS is not fair yes absolutely but that goes back to the point I'm trying to make in general. Life is going to be negative, ugly, unfair and terrible sometimes but when one incident has nothing to do with another it should not be brought into the current situation.

All of the above is just my opinion and ymmv.

[This message edited by Unagie at 5:45 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


Heartbroken madhatter trying to rebuild

No longer together

"To be loyal to myself is to allow myself to grow and change, and challenge who I am and what I think."


Posts: 2767 | Registered: Oct 2012
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 4:01 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I can see both side of this, I really can. It's such a grey area and different for every couple.

I do agree with BG, once in R there has to come a point where the venting stops. The couple must learn to communicate their feelings without resorting to hurtful comments. R is about rebuilding the marriage, no? Comments about wishing you had divorced and started dating, delivered in that manner in that particular argument are destructive, no matter how truthful they are.

I get the whole truth speaking thing. It is important for the BS to have their feelings heard, even if they are uncomfortable. Learning to sit with uncomfortable feelings is a must for any wayward. But a way must be found for those feelings to be expressed without taking chunks out of the WS and the M.

CD, your WH handled that conversation all wrong. You crossed a line in the context of telling him that information but the actaul content of what you were saying is your truth and you didn't cross a line by saying it. He should hear that stuff, absolutely. He should comfort you and validate you because he should be able to hear the pain behind those words. He should be proactive in healing you and the M.

I guess my point is, tell him how you feel but work together to improve you communication techniques.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/2010 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1258 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
littlemiss1
Member
Member # 43465
Default  Posted: 5:22 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I can also see both sides.

I like to shout rant and rave sometines it makes me feel better.I think he deserves everything he gets.

When I'm done though I look at this sad man infrony of me who seems broken.

Last night we talked and I asked how he felt when I do this.

His reply " I deserve eveything you throw at me,I'll take it because I'm sorry for what I've done'
I live every day in fear that you will leave me,when I get home from work on so relieved to see you are still here.
This was said through tears.

Bionic gal I can see that my words hurt him.
I know I say them to hurt,because I'm angry.
But sometimes I know I need to think about what in saying because I know they are empty threats about leaving the difference is he doesn't.
If a wh is truly truly sorry and wants to put things right with every breath they take then at some point I need to stop this cycle .
It makes me feel good for 5mins then we sit and cry broken together.
My husband doesn't deal with emotions well so I can see my behaviour doesn't help us in the long run.

Xx



Posts: 79 | Registered: May 2014
confused615
Member
Member # 30826
Default  Posted: 6:02 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I don't think anyone said a WS can not have boundaries, lines, etc. I DO think when a newly betrayed spouse is told "I have boundaries..you crossed a line" it hits a BS as hypocritical..oh..NOW you have boundaries with ME..but you had no boundaries with her." So, shortly after dday, while they can have boundaries, I think it's perfectly understandable that that sentence would piss a newly betrayed spouse off.

Of course they have feelings, and they can be hurt.

I also think a WS, shortly after dday, should try to understand that a BS is in whirlwind of pain, and when we express that pain it doesn't necessarily equate to "abuse." Ascendant posted about this in the betrayed menz thread. He said it perfectly. I wish I could find it..but it's early and Ive had no coffee.

I see it quite often on the wayward forum. Usually a WW. "My BH is being mean to me..he is abusing me." How? What is he doing? "He's saying mean things to me." Like what? And, quite often, the "abuse" is nothing more than their BH crying, venting, and being angry that his wife has been out screwing his best friend. I mean..how dare he be mad and yell and hurt her feelings..right?

If you read a few of the OP's posts, you will see that while her WH is transparent, and NC, that's about it. She tries to talk and he gets pissed. He gets exasperated. She needs answers and he isn't giving them to her.


I agree. Eventually in R the venting needs to stop. But, maybe that should be after they have talked it through..a few times..after he has answered her questions..a few times(because a BS is so traumatized by the WS's actions they have trouble processing the information the first few times). She is a few months out from dday. The pain is still very fresh.

WAL said it best.

That said, I also believe 100% that the WS has the right to set whatever wuss boundaries they want. They're still human beings and still have the right to be butt-hurt, self-involved little pansies who are all about themselves and their boo-boos if they want to be (i.e., the sorts of people for whom "boundaries" is listed in the dictionary as a synonym for "manipulation".)

As the BS, you can choose to respect those boundaries and try to work with your WS on expressing your hurt in a way that doesn't violate their terms...or you can realize exactly the sort of person you're dealing with and use that information to make informed decisions about whether this is really the sort of person worth investing in for the next x number of years until they grow themselves the fuck up.


BS(me)42
FWH 45
4 kids
M: June 2001
D-Day: 8/10/10
Status: Reconciling?

..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.


Posts: 7743 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: Indiana
Chinadoll30
Member
Member # 43131
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Thank you ALL for your insights. I had WH read most of then as well. Truth be told, I am feeling more hopeless than ever. He is in IC, and so am I. Actually I go today which is fortuitous. But something seems to have kicked me in the seat of the pants and plopped me right into 180 world. I'm just not doing it anymore. I'm not reading to make sense or figure out what we should do next. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze him. I'm just not interested. This place feels very dark and lonely. But I just CAN'T anymore. I just can't.


"We must see all scars as beauty. Okay? This will be our secret. Because take it from me, a scar does not form on the dying. A scar means 'I survived'." -Chris Cleave

Posts: 308 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: Philadelphia
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

((Chinadoll))
I am sorry this thread turned into such a theoretical argument. I wish I had a crystal ball so I could see what any of us should do. I would just say have faith in yourself, breathe, and keep going.

Sometimes in exercise class when it gets super hard and I think I am at my physical limit, my instructor says: "yes...This is what it is supposed to feel like." So, know your feelings are normal, and that you are not alone. You are a living, breathing loving person, and that is why thus hurts. But, it does get better
Hang in there.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
bionicgal
Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 7:19 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Double post

[This message edited by bionicgal at 7:31 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is a personal crisis, not a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 2079 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
I think I can
Member
Member # 17756
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, July 1st (Tuesday)

WAL!!!! Good to see you.

Chinadoll. The 180 sounds like a good place for you right now while you ponder.


I'm not the winner, I'm the prize.

Posts: 8829 | Registered: Jan 2008
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Chinadoll,

I think you're making progress. One of the first steps in recovering from this is to focus on yourself - feeling your feelings, figuring out what you want, seeing if your H will deliver, negotiating boundaries.

Sounds like you're about there. It may seem lonely at first - wait a bit, and you'll feel stronger than you ever have before.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10430 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
peoplepleaser
Member
Member # 41535
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

Ha! I just realized that the thread actually played out the aspects of their argument. We are talking about two different things here. First, the need to communicate effectively in the relationship and second, the emotional turmoil of the BS early after DDay and their right(?) to express it openly and have it be well received. I ascribe to both. In the end if a BSs goal is to communicate effectively and avoid more pain there are difficult and seemingly unfair decisions and choices to be made with regard to communication. This situation happens to most of us. Simply put, the WS was not in a good space to receive the emotions of the BS and even said so. The BS was overwhelmed and pushed the issue, resulting in painful responses between both of them. That just "is" what happened free from value judgments. If you add a the emotions, context, and history then simple statements take on greater meaning, leading to even more intense emotional responses.

Should the WS respond favorably every time the BS has a thought or feeling to share in response to the trauma they are navigating? Absolutely. But is that realistic, especially so early on? Probably usually not.

Should the WS, as a partner in a relationship in R be able to declare that they are not in a good space for a difficult discussion? Of course they should. Are they meeting the needs of their WS when they do? No. When we were struggling with this it helped to have my WS tell me she would be better able to talk the next day.

There is so much understandable venom and anger expressed by the BSs on this thread. I get it. I have it too. In our case my WS suffered from not sharing her needs, thoughts or feelings. When she was not in a good space it was extremely difficult for me, but I had to remember that she was doing something new by recognizing it and sharing it. This situation may be different, but I would bet money that most if the relationship issues before the As were due in large part to breakdowns on effective communication.

I'm sorry that his inability to meet your needs has led to using the 180. However, I think that will be extremely helpful for you. I remember it teaching me that I could fulfill my own needs when overwhelmed with emotions instead of placing demands on my WS. It will help you regardless of his ability to come back to R offering everything you need.

R is a gift. One that we give ourselves in honor of the relationship potential we see in each other following this traumatic experience. Based on your other posts, he hadn't proven that potential yet, but rest assured it is something that happened to both of you. Separation and D are also gifts we can give ourselves based on the potential of the relationship. You don't deserve any more pain from him, and I'm happy to see you honoring yourself in that way be embracing the 180.

And mozzchops, that SAME thing happened to me! I was flabbergasted that because I was in an insecure place AND voiced it she accused ME of rejection. I wanted to scream, "you don't know what rejection is until someone who professed to love, care, and protect you used their phone to f$&k your close friend and do it in front of you while rejecting your need for intimacy while you battle depression!" I didn't say that, of course, but it did turn I to a few week discussion. Ultimately I think our WSs are constantly afraid we will reject them and leave. They are feeling unworthy, disgusting and shameful. It's probably difficult to vulnerably seek intimacy from us, so when we aren't in that space it creates overwhelming fears. It doesn't make it ok, as they should work on that and gains healthier perspective. Man it was a mindf$&k thoughts have WS accuse me of rejection at all. So difficult not to bite. It was one of the few things I left alone and proceeded calmly later.


WS: 39
BS: 39
DS: 6
9 year relationship
DDay #1: September 6, 2013 EA for 5 weeks August 2013 with TT
DDay #2: January 2, 2014 EA for 6 weeks summer 2011 with TT
"I am still learning." -Michelangelo

Posts: 728 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Midwest
StillGoing
Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 2:45 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

I think it is more nuanced than that. Just because you were hurt, doesn't mean you can't hurt others, and that at some point we have to take ownership of that.

I know this was a few pages back but I agree (assuming you mean "Just because you were hurt doesn't mean you CAN hurt others" because, I dunno, validating pain from lashing out isn't what I am agreeing with).

This, however:

. So back to last night. I was so upset, so angry at him, so hurt by his lies that I said "I wish I had just listed the house and gone ahead with the divorce and started dating". And he replied "you just crossed a line". (This was after much negative back and forth). And I lost it. Screaming "I crossed a line by saying I would date?!?! You f-ing did it!!!!!! You tell me I crossed a line???". Only with a lot more vulgarity and profanity.

Is not a good example of inflicting pain that way. What it is a good example of is a cheater blameshifting his bullshit with a whiny crock of poor-me. He said she crossed a line when she said she should have gone ahead with the divorce and started dating - basically, she made a mistake to try because he took that trust and abused it a second time.

There is no line that was crossed there. There was no pain thrown out. That was him being things I just realized I can't say because we're in the R forum.

The screaming and shit after that statement is not relevant to that statement, because it came after the line comment.

Finally, if his boundaries are such that she cannot express her frustration and disappointment without carefully couching it to salve his ego, then I'm inclined to agree with her original assessment. She should have gone and got a D and started dating. Yes, he gets to set that line, but when you present your boundaries as wheeled goalposts like that it's really, really easy to score.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7495 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

WS doesn't like hearing that, after such a deep betrayal the BS has thoughts of just walking, then the WS is in some pretty heavy denial.

After the destruction they willingly brought into the marriage, they'd have to have their head firmly up their ass to think the BS didn't think of leaving, or other similar thoughts. If that scares the WS, tough shit! If they were so scared, they wouldn't have cheated.

I agree with, Pastthelies' post, In its entirety.

It's so true, too. If the wayward doesn't like hearing the BS thoughts or the expression of their pain, that's not constructive.

I see it a lot though on infidelity forums. A former wayward spouse will become unglued over a true but unflattering statement the faithful spouse said.

It just shows that they are not "getting it".


“If two people truly have feelings for one another then they don’t have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1455 | Registered: May 2014
crestfallen
Member
Member # 27993
Default  Posted: 3:32 PM, July 1st (Tuesday)

This^^^^^

I, too, was told early on that I crossed the line. It was during a period of some heavy duty TT. My FWH was not willing to talk about his affair at all. He even went as far as saying the priest he saw for confession days after DDay told him never to talk about it. (Nice try, Sherlock!..he later told me that was yet another lie.)

I think that in the beginning, many Waywards have so much trouble facing the ugliness of their behaviors in the light of day.
The shame and guilt and all of the other emotions become overwhelming and just too much. At some point, they need to own and understand the consequences of such behavior.

It needs to be done in a constructive way. It's not something that is accomplished easily. It takes intestinal fortitude.
This R stuff, it's not a sprint, it's a freakin marathon. With compassion on both sides if the fence.

Recently, the OW broke NC by text. My H did the correct thing and showed me immediately. I burst into tears. I triggered! But, you know what,? It was clearly out of the blue, and he was able to communicate calmly how he was triggered and angry, too! I really respect that!


BS-me-57
WH-57
Married 32 years
OW-Mr. Ed ish! Seriously!
DDAY- 2/21/09
TT until 1/10/10
Working on R and doing well!!

Posts: 179 | Registered: Mar 2010
Topic Posts: 47