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User Topic: Took off my ring
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

A few months back my BS told me she took off her rings. And that when she did, she realized that she was no longer attached to them. And that was a stark reminder that her dreams were gone. And our marriage was dead. I didn't quite understand this. I understood that that they are just pieces of gold. And how could there be so much feeling attached.

Last night for only the 3rd time is almost 14 years, I took mine off. And wow the swirl of emotions. Was I giving up on the marriage? Is this a step toward D? I felt vulnerable, weak, like I was quitting, and unsecure.

Wow what projection! Now that things have settled in me overnight.
The rings is not a shield. The ring is not security. The ring is not what makes me married. The ring is just a piece of gold. A symbol. That's it. What a weird feeling. I strayed wearing the ring, it didn't stop anything. It is not a magical amulet. It possesses no power. All of those things have to come from within.

I will be my shield. I will be my security. I am married ring or no ring. It is my choices and my actions that make me what I am, not a piece of gold.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 628 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Did you put the ring back on?


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4957 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

No, not at this time.

I am trying to feel more of the loss. Get a better understanding. Look at the consequences of my actions.

ETA: Funny thing, I had gained and lost a lot of weight during our marriage. and under where my ring was, is a band of scar tissue. It seems quite fitting at this point.

[This message edited by DrJekyll at 9:12 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 628 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
tired girl
Member
Member # 28053
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

You may want to talk to your BS about how she feels about it. Had my H taken his off after my DD, I would have been seriously pissed. I think it is one thing for the BS to do it. It is often another for the WS to do it. Others may weigh in here and say something different. Hopefully some BS's will weigh in and tell you how they would feel. I am just saying how I would have felt.


Me45 Him 45 Hardlessons DS 25,23,20
D Day 1/18/10 his 3/8/2012 mine
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt

Posts: 4957 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: az
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 9:17 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

she had took hers off first, and we had discussed it. She told me that it is my choice. She doesn't care either way. And the only reason she wears hers is to not get asked questions. Not something I would ever consider without her opinion.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 628 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
SelfishHusband
Member
Member # 43174
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Ring or no ring, it doesn't matter.

On, it reminds you. You strayed while wearing it; what it's supposed to symbolize; how it didn't stop anything.

Off, it reminds you. You no longer wear it. You have a scar, a mark, you know it used to be there. How you used to wear it. How when you did, it didn't stop anything.

I prefer mine on. It feels heavier there and I'm more aware of it. And if it's a symbol to my BW who can see I'm still wearing it then fine; she can know that I consider us not over until it's over.

If and when we're divorced, I'll take it off. Or, if she ever asks me to, or whatever. Like you said. Just a piece of gold. :)


Me: FWH (39)
Her: BW (34)
DDay 1: March 2013 (EA/PA that *I* rugswept)
DDay 2: April 2014 (PA with double betrayal. OW was wife's friend)
Married: 13 Years
1 Handsome and Amazing Son (10)
MC and IC for 2.5 months-ish. Currently stopped.

Posts: 332 | Registered: Apr 2014
outtanowhere
Member
Member # 39001
Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I took mine off 2 days after dday. The things you say are very true including that the rings are just metal. They could have been made of plastic but, they are symbolic to the outside world that we have made vows to our special someone. Promises that we would love, honor, cherish and keep ourselves only unto that one person. Everybody knows what that band on the ring finger of the left hand means.

My H never took his off either and, it makes me so sad that even with that very visual piece of jewelry he found so many partners that had no problem helping him destroy not only his life but, mine as well. I still don't wear mine as I know now that he didn't mean a word of what he said the day we married.

You are right. That ring doesn't make you married or not. What make you married is knowing in your heart that the one you chose is worth keeping the promises you freely made to them. You are worth keeping promises you make to yourself. I believe that going thru life with that one special person who makes us feel so special just makes the journey sweeter. That ring should be a visual reminder to yourself of those promises you made and, a signal to others that you are spoken for.


BS - 58
SAWH - 61 multiple encounters with prostitutes and other sex workers
Married 37 years
Dday - 2/19/13 - found the emails
He promised me Heaven then put me thru hell

Posts: 746 | Registered: Apr 2013
Teach8
Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 9:22 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I think TG is right. Please talk to your BS about the ring. I certainly understand what you're saying...the ring isn't the marriage...but the message your BS receives by taking it off, may not be the one you are intending to send. She may take it as a sign that you are giving up or that they don't hold meaning for you. And you are right, our rings are just symbols, but symbols can be very powerful.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 509 | Registered: Aug 2012
BrokenButTrying
Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I agree with the others, please talk to your BS about this. The message it sends out may be very different from the one you intended.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Teach I would have never done this without discussion with my BS. It actually pains me to not wear it. We talk about how it feels. I do not feel like I am giving up. Just sitting here feeling the loss. One thing my BS says to me, I have a hard time feeling the loss until it is there staring me in the face. So I guess I am staring at my hand feeling the loss. The loss of trust, the loss or the marriage, the failure I have become. feeling the emotion and pain of it.

[This message edited by DrJekyll at 9:49 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)]


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 628 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
Wayflost
Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 9:49 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

When my BH and I got married it gave me a thrill to see the ring on his hand. The few photos I have of him wearing it still give me that joyful feeling in the pit of my stomach. But on Dday he took it off. As outtanowhere said to him it is a symbol of my empty promises. He has said he will never again put on a ring from me.

I wear a ring, but not the ring my husband picked for me because that caused him too much pain. I bought a simple, and inexpensive, titanium band with a black center. A black band is traditionally a symbol of mourning. So for me, the new ring symbolizes the loss of potential for the marriage we once had, and it shows the world that I am still married.

Sometimes I think about getting "Taken" tattooed on my forehead. However it would be self limiting (job wise) so I think I'll skip it. And you are right DrJekyll I have to be the shield. I have to stand up for what it means.

It's a journey.


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 399 | Registered: Dec 2013
ImSorry11
New Member
Member # 43517
Default  Posted: 10:03 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

My BH doesn't want people to ask questions so he's asked me to continue to wear mine. He told me he hates that I get to wear them. If he had it his way they would have gone in the trash. He took his off for several days after DDay but put it back on when we decided to R. He told me he'd eventually like to get me a new set which I don't deserve.

How symbolic of that scar tissue to be where it is. I admire your thought process. I love my rings but they're a constant bitter reminder of the vows I broke.


Me: WW 31
Him: BH 34
DDay 5/23/14, 4 month EA/PA
Married 8 years Together 11
3 Beautiful Kiddos under 7

Posts: 42 | Registered: May 2014
Teach8
Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I'm glad you spoke to her about it. I think we cross posted when you explained that you had. As long as your BS is comfortable and you feel like this is helping you in your journey, that is all that matters.

I will say that symbols are representation of feelings, ideas and thoughts. I took my rings off as well after dday. I felt they were a symbol of something that wasn't true. My taking them off was a way of communicating that, at that moment, my H had broken our vows and they no longer represented the things they did before dday.

When my H asked about his ring...I kind of said the same thing...do what you want. It was his choice to wear it or not, but honestly, I'm glad he chose to wear it. Again, none of that matters as long as you and your BS are on the same page. And it sounds like you are really making good progress.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 509 | Registered: Aug 2012
TrulySad
Member
Member # 39652
Default  Posted: 10:28 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I went through a range of emotions regarding my WH (now an ex) wearing his ring. After DD, I would have seen his removing his ring as a symbol of him discarding his marriage. He had already thrown away the vows... if he wanted to prove to me anything, it meant keeping that ring on and building it back up.

I removed my rings because for me they symbolized promises made to me by him. When he broke those promises, he essentially broke the circle ( the ring). I needed a new and stronger one. One that was true and untainted.

I can honestly tell you I yelled at him to take his rings off. I told him he didn't deserve to wear them. It was almost like I wanted him to rip the last symbol of life for our marriage up. I just wanted him to finish it off. Maybe it would have made it easier for me to leave him if he had removed them.

But he didn't. And deep down, I was relieved for that. By him keeping them on, it gave me a sliver of hope that he was still holding on to me. That no matter what I said to him, no matter what some OW did with him, he couldn't finish us off so simply.

In the end, we didn't make it. It worked out for the best though. But I think what people here are trying to say is while your reasons are understandable and make so much sense...sometimes the betrayed will interpret them however they need to, to survive and move forward. And sometimes us betrayed need to see our wayward go to extremes and stay strong and true to something we want to throw away.

Now is the time for you to be strong...

I wish you both hope...


Me: Sad, but I will survive

True Love: What I have for my beautiful children.


Posts: 452 | Registered: Jun 2013
BrokenheartedWif
Member
Member # 40955
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

It's good you asked. Different BS will feel differently. I haven't worn my engagement or wedding ring since I discovered his Adultery. They represented broken promises and vows. He wanted to wear his, but I asked him not to. They had attended each others weddings, we were supposedly all friends; so he couldn't remember if he had it off every time he was with her over the 16 plus years of their adultery. I told him I didn't want him wearing my ring, when he had had it all over and in her body and tarnished it.


He claims he loved me the whole time of his LTA. I'm not sure I'll survive his kind of love.

Posts: 67 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: Central IN
Alonelyagain
Member
Member # 32820
Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

WW took off her rings first, and then I took off mine. Time goes by and one night she is hysterical. It turns out that the kids' nanny stole her rings, as well as mine. The nanny, who my WW hired, had been in jail previously for a year for embezzlement unbeknownst to me. Even though WW's engagement ring was expensive, I had no response whatsoever, to my WW's surprise and annoyance. To me, after paying for the engagement ring, the value that I placed on the ring was equal to the value that I placed on our M. Since WW rendered our M valueless, I placed no value on that ring and its theft did not bother me in the least bit. WW was a bit taken aback when I recently told her just that, in response to her telling me that she thought that her engagement ring was beautiful and would look at it every morning in her jewelry box.

Posts: 115 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: New Jersey
womaninflux
Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 4:51 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Take your time figuring out the ring thing. I took my rings off the day I went to see a lawyer for the first time. I believe that was about 10 days after I discovered the affair. I was riding the public transit in my large city and did not want to risk theft or robbery. At any rate, I did not put them back on for almost 9 months. They sat in a safe.

I'll never forget what my WH said when he noticed I wasn't wearing the rings. "You aren't going to wear that beautiful ring I bought you?" Mind you, he was still in contact with the AP of the LTA. I later found out that during this time period, she had suggested they "take a break." This was after she berated him for telling me everything. She was, you know, worried about her reputation. Laughable.

Another laughable thing about the rings in my situation is that since my WH's A was discovered, he has not taken off his ring. He lost and found and had to replace several rings during this 2.5 year A.You see, his AP did not want him to wear his wedding ring in front of her because she said it was disrespectful to her. LOL.


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 897 | Registered: Jun 2013
stupidgurl
Member
Member # 36763
Default  Posted: 9:29 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I think you should put it back on.

It feels impulsive of you to have taken them off just because she did. And lack of impulse control is what got you in this whole mess in the first place.

It could be a test, or a punishment, or both. But wouldn't it be great for a change not to fail on her. Didn't you fail bad enough already. Just choose to be all in on the marriage, the rings, the cheesy love notes, the yummy dinners, affection. They won't work right away, but over time she will see you working on the marriage. Do not fail again, no matter what tests you get.

My H took his off for 2 years after my PA, he was hurt and felt like punishing me and it did hurt me but I kept mine on. You could not help but read, super married in everything I did. He has them back on so now we both wear them and we make jokes like they have special powers that keep us together, just the other night, I was talking about how I was never leaving and he said you can't because then he would put his ring against mine and they would lock together and I would be finger handcuffed to him. You had to be there to appreciate the joke, trust me it was funny. WE were laughing anyways, and it was nice to laugh together after all we've put each other through


me WW/BW-31
him BH/WH- 31

2002/3 (him) EA

PA(me)-Nov 2007

Tog. 14 yrs, Marr. 13 and counting!

R'd


Posts: 133 | Registered: Sep 2012
redsox13
Member
Member # 43391
Default  Posted: 10:05 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

My fww does not wear her ring - it doesn't fit. It bothers me she does not, and it bothers me she doesn't think it is important enough to get enlarged.

I wouldn't take the ring off without asking the BS. And I am pretty sure I would never ask the BS - it reaks of giving up.


BS - 45
WW - 43
In R for 5 years, still hurting but finally letting go

Posts: 260 | Registered: May 2014 | From: nh
identitylost
Member
Member # 34496
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Another BS who thinks you should put it back on. I never put mine back on after dday, but the handful of times while we were trying to reconcile that he took his off it really got to me and made me question his commitment to trying to reconcile.

Even if she says it's okay for you not to wear it, I would personally feel like it speaks louder and symbolizes more to keep it on.


Me: BS (37)
Him: someone else's problem
1DS (3)
M: 5yrs
OW: irrelevant at this point.
DDay: 12/17/11
Divorced: 01/13

Posts: 200 | Registered: Jan 2012
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 5:10 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Thank you to everyone who has posted, so here is the update. I have spent the entire day with the unsettling feelings. Wishing I had my ring on. I want these feelings to sink in. I am going to put the ring back on, I never gave up. I was just letting myself feel what the failure I had become. What the broken promises and horrendous actions have cost me. I am totally 100% in this M and committed to R. I have been discussing with my BS my feelings all day yesterday. It was a good experience for me. I even teared up a few times. Do I recommend this for other WS? Not necessarily. Everyone's path is their own. But it was definitely an experience. The next question is now that I have been feeling these losses. Will they change when I put the ring back on? I will let you know soon.

Thanks again to everyone.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 628 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
TheIrishGirl
Member
Member # 43496
Default  Posted: 6:03 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

I hope the experiment of having it off helps you to keep moving through this mess. It sounds good that you walked through all the feelings of having it off with your BS. Hopefully it was enlightening for both of you.

My thoughts on the rings: I take them off at home because as others have said, they don't mean much in my relationship now. I wear them in public so that I will look married. Some days I can't get myself to put on the band & engagement ring, so I wear another one on that finger. I want WH to wear his because the vows were, "take this ring as a sign of my love and fidelity", the promise that went along with his ring remains true.

If we make it through all of this I told WH that I'd like to renew our vows (probably privately) and to get a replica of my wedding band and I'll wear all three rings since they will tell our story- the engagement ring: that he asked for me, the first wedding band: that we tried and he failed, the (theoretical) new wedding band: that I've put my faith back in him. I want the new one to look just like the old one so that eventually I won't know which is which.


Me: 31, BW Him: 38, WH
2 children (ours) 7/11 & 3/14
D-day 4/18/14 I saw his 'other' email

Posts: 472 | Registered: May 2014
DrJekyll
Member
Member # 43618
Default  Posted: 7:06 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Ok so the ring is back on, and I feel a little relief. The relief is only for the thought of sending the wrong signal to my BS. I still feel that loss. which is a good thing.

After discussion with my BS. The conclusion, I am going to get my current ring sized up to fit properly. I am going to buy an additional ring as a symbol of my commitment to myself. And then one day, after R, we will buy a new 3 piece set. The current idea is the ring I buy for myself with be black titanium. (I liked the representation Wayflost) So on my finger in the future will be:
The original band (where I was) Gold
black titanium (the dark days) Black
new band (the future) Gold

Thank you everyone for joining me on this journey.


Moving from Jekyll the destroyer to Jekyll the rebuilder.

"If you don't eat the elephant in one bite, it might trample you while chewing"

ME: WH HER: BS (holesinmybucket)

no stop sign = BS always welcome
I do not PM with women


Posts: 628 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: United States
WabiSabi
Member
Member # 43489
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

About six months after DDay it occurred to me that I didn't have to continue to suffer all the triggers every time I saw my ring. It was an aha moment, because after 20+ years of never taking it off it didn't occur to me that I even could. I can relate to the surprise of seeing your scars, Dr. Jekyll. When I took mine off I saw that my finger had significant atrophy in the space where my rings had been. My fWH FREAKED when we were laying in bed in the dark and I told him I had just taken them off. Here I was feeling empowered and proud of myself that I was discovering ways to help myself heal. And I thought it was a sharing moment with him. I was trying to offer healthy honest communication and include him in my journey. But he just went insane. He grabbed my bare finger and started a gut wrenching sob and became hysterical. He begged me to put it back on and I told him that was a selfish request since it had become my ring of pain and betrayal. I gently refused. So he took his off, got up and put it in his dresser drawer, and laid back down. I felt nothing more than I thought he was being impulsively immature. But he had plummeted into an abyss of fear that this was an omen our M would fail. I told him that while he wore his ring he went off on a sexual journey with another woman. So the whole ring thing had worthless value as far as I was concerned. He panicked, jumped up and got his ring back from the drawer. He put it back on and kept saying he was going to wear his. Fine. I didn't care either way. But I had the luxury of not caring because he has been so driven to atone for his past behavior and be forever more the amazing H he thinks I deserve. If he gave me mixed messages about being all in this M I'm sure I would have felt a stabbing pain if he took his ring off.

So we compromised in a way that was healthy for both of us. I took my wedding ring/engagement ring that had been soldered together immediately after our wedding and had the jeweler separate them. I wrote a good-bye letter to my wedding band and gave it to my H to make disappear so I never have to see it again. I put the yellow gold engagement ring on and bought two new bands in white gold. I put one of the bands on my finger symbolizing my promise to myself that I would stand against my co-dependency and champion myself from now until eternity. I gave the twin band to my H to keep until the day I am healed, no longer feel interchangeable with other women, and want to be married to him again. Because I do not feel married. I haven't since DDay.


Wabi SabiÖ the beauty in imperfection. Struggling every day to find it.

Me: BW (45) Him: fWH (48) 3 kids M 21 yrs
7 mths INTENSE Sexting A w/COW (they sickly fantasized about ME)
D-day: 9/2/13
TT: Until 12/2013 (I read their deleted texts/Vomitted)


Posts: 116 | Registered: May 2014 | From: Midwest
Actionsoverwords
Member
Member # 41949
Default  Posted: 6:44 AM, July 4th (Friday)

Hi, DrJekyll,

I wish you and the missus the best and I hope that you guys continue healing.

I have had a number of experiences regarding wedding jewelry with BW. After D-day(s) in 2008, BW asked me to take off my ring and she took hers off. I was enraged and made it all about me. All types of thoughts were going through my head. "Does this mean that this is really over?" "What the hell is going on?" etc. We ended up selling our wedding bands and engagement rings.

I wanted that ring back. I struggled with repressing my anger because I felt like I deserved it. Fast forward 5 years. BW and I are celebrating our anniversary. We got matching wedding bands (and another band for me) and were working on buying a new engagement ring for her. I began to wear mine everyday and was so proud of it.

Fast forward to the present and I am not wearing my band again. BW mentioned to me that it is triggering because she has asked me on a number of occasions to remove the ring and I just blew her off. She relayed that it meant nothing as I have lied and lied in this relationship.

I was angry, but saw her point of view. I removed the ring, gave it to her, and have not worn it since.

It's a piece of jewelry that is only as good as the relationship that you are in.


Me: WH, 30's
Her : BW, 30's, (determinata)
Children: An amazing son.
I am a sex addict, working on myself, and facing the wreckage of my actions.



Posts: 257 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York City
MJane
Member
Member # 40571
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, July 4th (Friday)

I took mine off shortly after DD - I felt like others have said that wearing his had meant nothing to my H so it no longer had any value to me (in fact it hurt like hell to look at it in those first days and was a reminder, as were photos of our wedding, of vows that came to nothing). He still wears his and I guess he sees it as the M he wants to keep working on. I'll never wear mine again - the promises related to that ring and our wedding day were broken - in time I think I'd be prepared to wear another ring that symbolizes us moving on. For the moment I wear a ring of my sister who has passed on - the feeling of bitterness and anger has been replaced by one of affection for her and when anyone asks me why I don't wear a wedding band I just say it stopped fitting me after my last pregnancy (ironically that is in part true - just not a physical fit!).

Posts: 253 | Registered: Sep 2013
RegretsTillIDie
New Member
Member # 42412
Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, July 4th (Friday)

After DD my BS didnít say anything about me wearing my wedding band and I kept it on. It was a security to me that she was not totally closing the door. However, my lies and TT over the next 3 years finally pushed her to the point that she told me to take it off, that I didnít deserve to wear it Ė which was completely true. I felt exposed without it. While we have been careful to keep our issues to ourselves I felt like everyone noticed I was no longer wearing it. Thereís not a day that goes by that I donít want to have it back on. Sheís still working to believe we have a chance of R and Iím doing everything I can to be the man and husband I should have been. I long for the day she gives it back to me.


Me: WH 55
Her: BS 55
Married: 30+ years

Posts: 22 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Midwest
Topic Posts: 27