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Reconciliation
User Topic: Lta ws and bs: opinions/insights/suggestions please
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 9:43 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

My WH and I are in a good place right now. He is doing everything a remorseful H should. I feel very hopeful & positive about our future together.

Just some background before I ask my question. My WH had a 2&1/2 year A with OW1 and concurrently a 2 mth A with OW2 with a handful of escorts in between those 2&1/2 years. He claims he has always loved me and never stopped loving me and that HE NEVER LOVED THEM. He went complete NC on his own on DDay (12/3/13) and said he had told them he would never leave his family.

I never had a chance to read any texts exchanges between WH and APs. My question is, is it possible for our WS to not love the AP especially in a LTA? My WH seem very convincing when he tells me that they did not mean anything to him and that it was complete selfishness on his part and that he loves me and never said "I love you" to them.

I know every case and situation is different but I sometimes wonder if he is telling me the truth. I guess I will never know the full truth but I wonder how others in the same situation feels or perhaps could shred some light on this topic.


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
Lowlow
Member
Member # 38653
Default  Posted: 9:47 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I find it hard to believe that after 2.5 years he never told her that he loved her. While it may be true, it isn't likely true, tbh. At least that's how it was with my WS and his AP. He eventually confessed he loved her after I found the emails confessing his love forever and always


Me (BS) 42 Him (FWS) 43
AP#2 (LTA EA/PA) DD #1 16 Feb 2013
AP#1 (LTA EA with my BF) DD #2 16 Nov 2013
Married 11 years, T 19 years
Reconciling

Posts: 226 | Registered: Mar 2013
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Thank you Lowlow for your response. Someone had told me in generally if the A lasts longer than a year that there may be love involved. I am still debating if I should get a subpoena to read those texts exchanges between them. I know that could possibly open up a can of worms but whatever the outcome....I feel strong enough to deal with it as I see it as a way to possibly help me heal and just close that lingering question that will haunt me forever :(.


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 10:12 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

I'd recommend reading NOT Just Friends, if you haven't already read it. It gives a lot of insight into the hows/whys/feelings.

Typically guys are very reluctant to admit the feelings involved because an emotional betrayal is harder to stomach than the physical. So they'll downplay/minimize it - Glass talks about this in teh book.

My husband had a 10 month EA/PA with the one woman and a PA with a second.

WHen I first found out, my husband said that he had "some" feelings for OW#1, and he "loved her on some level." He DID say "I love you" to her - but swears he was not comfortable saying it and only said it because she said it to him first and he felt he had to reciprocate

After a few days, wheN I asked him again if he'd loved her, he said stepping back from it no he did not feel that he loved *her.* But rather he loved the fantasy world - the stay up al night, secret life, waiting and sneaking between texts, anxiously waiting the next time, the thrill of it all . And that he was addicted to that. That while he liked her, looking back his feelings for her were nothing like what he'd normally consider love or anything like what he feels for me.

I think that was a nice way for him to word it, but I think he is also taking the chance to downplay the emotional side for "my sake." I read hte emails between the two of them, he started each one with "Good morning, love" and told her how much he missed her, how she knew what was in his heart, how hard it was for him to be away from her, and he'd end with "I love you." He even wrote her poetry.

Now that he's removed from the affair, he said that every time he thinks of her he feels physically ill and consumed with guilt. He said he has no positive feelings at all about any of it at this point.

So my thoughts are that yeah, there are feelings involved. But they also have to be understood withint he context of the situation - they may have felt "love" or feelings in the moment, but in reality they were IN that affair and situation because of their own ego and id, selfishness, and infatuation with the fantasyworld. It wasn't real. (Though I imagine in some EAs it was)

In my husband's case - and perhaps in your husband's as well - the presence of the second OW helps reinforce this. My husband had started flirting with the second woman before meeting OW#1, cotninued flirting with her though decreased the amount, and immediately picked up with her when OW#1's husband found out. While he sent all his romantic emails to OW#1, he'd be sexting OW#2. His call log literally goes texts to OW#2, call to OW#1, texts to OW#2 with an email thrown into OW#1 at some point in the day.

So that is one of the parts about there being multiple women that I suppose is easier, at least for me, because it reinforces that it wasn't love, it was just love of the situation and fantasy affair world.


"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul." - William Ernest Henley

Posts: 525 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 10:13 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Oh and I alwasy read that it is harder for women to learn of emotional affairs than the physical, though obviously both are hard.


With my husband having two, I can definitely say the emotional affair is definitely harder. The physical side is horrifying and upsetting and devastating... but the emotional side is haunting.


"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul." - William Ernest Henley

Posts: 525 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 10:51 PM, July 2nd (Wednesday)

Lowlow and Lark, I'm so sorry you had to read those painful emails from your WH exchanging loving words to the AP!

Lark: thank you for the book recommendation. I actually bought tons of books after DDay and that was one of them (will have to start reading it). Yes, my H was texting both women at the same time as well which led me to ponder if he truly love OW1 he would not have seek out OW2 or the escorts in between. I can relate to the fantasy world that was created and the high that came with the addiction of A world in my H case as well. I think my question ties in with the investment of an emotional affair if there was love involved so I completely agree it is so hard to swallow.

I'm glad both of our H are "consumed with guilt" and "feel physically ill" about their AP(s). Feels good to know that they truly realize how much they love us now :).


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
Sunnydaysahead
Member
Member # 43756
Default  Posted: 12:29 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

I will weigh in for what it is worth....my H was involved in an 8 year LTA with a MCOW.. He is adamant there was never anything more than sex...no emotions, no love....just sex. He and his AP did not meet up on a regular basis, sometimes once a month, sometimes there were three months in between (there was one 10 month stretch where H "white knuckled" it).

According to H, the sex was intriguing and exciting the first several times, and then it became more of a compulsion. It was mostly rushed since they would meet up during the day. Once the act was over, they parted in a hurry. Both H and the OW claim they never spoke about love, felt they were in love or ever wanted to leave their spouses. H and i have talked about the nitty gritty details of their activities....and I wanted to know ALL of the detaiils...as hard as they were to hear.

He claims after he was with her, he felt guilt and remorse and swore to himself he would not go back...until the next time it happened....(and it obviously happened again and again and again)... I spoke extensively with OW's BH after DDay and for the most part, H and OW's stories match...they differ on some of the details, but the overall gist is the same. Both H and OW agree she originally approached him. He is still working with his IC on the "why" he entered the A to begin with (my theory is because he wanted to and he is a selfish ass)

I have seen the text messages between them, they were very clinical..just arrangements where they should meet up and when. It almost seems like a cross between a friends with benefits arrangement and having his own personal hooker. Their phone bills do not show many texts (one of the reasons they were able to fly under the radar for so long). I have also pored over bank records, no money missing.

One of the hardest things for me to grasp has been the lack of apparent romantic feelings in the relationship. Although I have never engaged in an affair and can't imagine doing so, if i was going to, I would expect hearts, flowers, fancy meals and professions of undying love. It is especially disheartening and humiliating to realize my H would risk our 25 relationship for hurried sex in the back of a car with someone he didn't even have strong feelings for.

H is in IC and is also attending SAA meetings. We are reading Not Just Friends and How to Help Your Spouse Heal from an Affair together. We have also read several books on addiction recommended by the IC. It has been a very bumpy ride, we will see where the future takes us.


Posts: 63 | Registered: Jun 2014
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 1:35 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

^ yes and then there is just the plain "sexbuddy"

So sorry sunnydaysahead. Hugs!! That is just awful, for 8 years :(

OW#2 was a sexbuddy. They texted a ton too because apparently that's my husband's affair MO. But the contents of their texts were very different. Not even "I like you" or "you make me feel good" like he did with OW#1. It was all just sexting. Though sometimes they crybabied to each other how guilty they felt about doing this to their BS before dropping their pants, but I guess those were pretty rare.


"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul." - William Ernest Henley

Posts: 525 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
still-living
Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 4:29 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

I will weigh in for what it is worth..

Sunnydays,
My wife's affair was very, very similar to what you describe so I say your input was very, very worthwhile. I know it's hard to believe as a new BS. It was fun and excitement, and immaturity.

[This message edited by still-living at 4:29 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14
Recovery is constructing a pyramid of inference from which to see clearer.
The process involves using the reflexive loop.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
Alex CR
Member
Member # 27968
Default  Posted: 4:49 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

My H had a five year LTA with a woman in another country where he travelled for work. They exchanged I love you's, wrote emails, talked on the phone and physically met up with each other when he traveled there for business--- from what I can figure out they spent just about a year together physically over the five period. They stayed in his hotel, ate out and he even went to her parents house for dinner.

Do I think he loved her? No...Love isn't the maid cleaning the room and dinner out and presenting just your 'good' side to the other person. Love is being honest and caring for someone and wanting what's best for them. Lying and cheating to carry on an affair isn't doing what's best for anyone except the cheater themselves...they are getting what they want ...that, for my H, was getting stroked, both his ego and his dick. And he lied to OW to get it.

Love is dirty dishes, cranky kids, quickies when the kids are out, wonderful holidays, struggling with money, family weddings and funerals, creating a lifetime of traditions together and finding the sweet spots that keep your love going above all the chaos in life. An affair is a selfish attempt to fill a hole inside a person, using people to get what they want, including the AP. An affair is all about one person's wants......love is about two people, wanting the best for each other.


BS Me 61
WS Him 62
Married 33
Together 40
DD 11/16/09
The future looks good....

Posts: 1695 | Registered: Mar 2010
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 8:36 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Sunnydaysahead....like Lark, I'm so sorry for the length of time your WH engaged in his A. It's hard to grasp how he could continue the A despite the lack of love. I think it is sickening either way but IMO, I would have preferred this lack of love just so my WH was not heavily invested emotionally with another women.
It almost seems like a cross between a friends with benefits arrangement and having his own personal hooker.

This resonates with me and Lark's "sexbuddy" comment. My H also claims OW#1 was a "matter of convenience."

My H felt like a king when he started the A and he was at the height of wealth & success. He was very selfish and thought he could have whatever he wanted. Unlike your H, mine unfortunately spent tons of money on OW#1 and texted both APs 24/7.

Sunnydaysahead....if your registration day is an indication of your recent DDay, I applaud you for seemingly handling this horandous situation with such strength and courage. Glad he is attending IC and SAA meetings. I wish you both luck on this roller coaster ride that we were tossed onto without any say in the matter!


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
MissedRedFlags
Member
Member # 43344
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

My WH had a 3 yr LTA. We are 1 year out from DDay and he claims he didn't "love" her and always "loved" me. However, it is hard to believe and understand when he has admitted that he told her he loved her and she (OW) REALLY loved him and OW REALLY believed he loved her---I have talked to her and read some letters that she gave to him after DDay.

He now admits/thinks that it was just lust and claims that he said anything to keep the affair going---that it was just for the sex. He told her he loved her, they had "plans" to get married --had outlined where to have the ceremony and where to honeymoon. From my perspective, I can't grasp talking to someone about love and marriage without there actually being emotions involved. However, the night I found out he'd been to a 3 hour dinner at bar with another woman ( a family law attorney! The irony!!) and I later discovered that he'd reached out to other woman on FB following his 20 year high school reunion. My mother-in-law feels that this is evidence that he was "getting bored" with the 3yr AP and was moving on. WH admits he didn't know how to end the affair--afraid she would contact me. Sigh. It's hard to know what to believe.

Me: BS 41
Him WS 39
DDay June 4, 2013
3 year LTA
Married 16 years
2kids aged 9 & 7


Me: BS 41
Him: WH 40
3 year LTA
DDay: June 4, 2013
Married 16 years
2 kids aged 9 & 7
Trying to decide if R is best for me

Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2014 | From: Florida
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Still-living.....I read your story and my heart goes out to both you and your WW. So sad that your wife had to endure such terrible FOO issues so you were the glue/rock that held your family together. I could see some of those FOO issues in my WH's childhood as well. Unfortunately, they become adults but still live in that childhood stage and lack the emotional maturity and stability that contributed to making irrational decisions by having the A.

It takes tremendous will power to forgive and stay with someone who betrays us in the worse possible way and so I commend you for that. It was very helpful reading your story so thank you for sharing that as well.

I do hope things are going better with your sons and that your wife's horrific family tradition/curse will be broken within your family.


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Alex CR.....so sorry you have to deal with a LTA as well, although once condensed, it would appear shorter in duration.
Yes, ego stroking was popular with my WH too, satisfying both of his heads as well!

I completely agree with you on what true love is versus the empty non-gratifying affair love:

Love is dirty dishes, cranky kids, quickies when the kids are out, wonderful holidays, struggling with money, family weddings and funerals, creating a lifetime of traditions together and finding the sweet spots that keep your love going above all the chaos in life. An affair is a selfish attempt to fill a hole inside a person, using people to get what they want, including the AP. An affair is all about one person's wants......love is about two people, wanting the best for each other.

Thank you for that....it helps knowing we were/are living in reality when it was just all fantasy land for them.


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

MissedRedFlags.....you are ahead of me by 6 mths in terms of DDay and our story has similarities. My WH initially said that there was "lust" involved (she is at least a decade younger than me). I believe mine probably got bored as well with OW#1 when he seeked out escorts and OW#2. I don't think our Hs are capable of loving any one person because they were so empty and broken inside. Mine was bored...he was also probably curious as to what was out there since we were each other's first and was extremely selfish because he was making it big and felt like a king.

Thank you for sharing your story and insight. I'm beginning to not care whether he said he loved her or not because he was just living a lie so anything said or felt during the A was all said in vain.


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
seethelight
Member
Member # 43513
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

My question is, is it possible for our WS to not love the AP especially in a LTA? My WH seem very convincing when he tells me that they did not mean anything to him and that it was complete selfishness on his part and that he loves me and never said "I love you" to them.

I haven't read all the other posts, so I hope I am not repeating anything, but I think it's possible that the wayward's loved PARTICULAR ASPECTS of their OWs.

Very possible. If they say they didn't it's possibly denial because if they did not love some aspect of them, why would they stay in a long term affair rather than having one nighters or using prostitutes.

Those aspects were, perhaps, things that may have been missing in the spouse because realistically, no spouse can fill every desire and need of another person.

That is however what same sex friends are for. Those same-sex friends may share interests that the spouse does not share and thus they fulfill a need.

Sadly some people look to an opposite sex person to fulfill those needs.

So, yes, our spouses likely loved the OW in some way.

I do believe that they don't in most cases love them enough to want them as spouse material.

They are just a diversion that fills a gap.


ďIf two people truly have feelings for one another then they donít have an affair. They get a divorce and they sort out their feelings. You are accountable for the people you hold hostage in a marriage when your mind and heart refuse to fully commit

Posts: 1132 | Registered: May 2014
StillStanding1
Member
Member # 40144
Default  Posted: 10:18 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

I'm so sorry you find need to be here, but welcome. LTA's suck in their own special way. All infidelity is soul-crushing and no matter which hand you are dealt, you always wonder if another is "better". I firmly believe they are all devastating and difficult to overcome. That's why we are all here.

I think the situation he describes is possible, as some posters have verified. My WH started his A with a married OW as a "no strings attached" arrangement. In retrospect, he said that he should've known that, for him, it would be impossible to be so intimate with someone without developing feelings (oooh, love!).

But I do believe each person and relationship is unique, so I believe it's possible for some people to keep up a convenient "fuck buddy" relationship if it's what they both want. My WH said (while he now fully admits he never should have started the A), he should've ended it when she started D with her BH. That she wanted to change the dynamics of their relationship. Well, he didn't and soon found himself in the predicament of having to "choose" between us and of course, he loved us both. Poor guy. Oh, the suffering.

It sounds like your WH is remorseful. That is key. He needs to do everything in his power to make himself a safe partner for you going forward and to help you trust him again. Watch his actions. Don't concentrate so much on his words. It is scary to try to trust again, whether the WS loved the AP or not.

I'm so very sorry for your pain. You will spend many many days and nights wondering about these questions. I'm not sure that any answer will ever help. I hope that you can eventually make peace with it and move forward in a healthy way for yourself, whatever that path may be.

(((CMS)))


Me: 40s BS, Him: 40s WH
M 21 yrs - 3 teens
LTA = 2+ yrs, Dday = 2/10/13, he moved out, he officially moved back in 1/25/14 and our work continues...

Posts: 679 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: MidWest
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, July 3rd (Thursday)

OW#1 definitely "loved" my husband, whatever love meant to her. She pursued him. From his telling of it, he was conflicted throughout but she did "make him feel good." I personally think that often women have the much bigger emotional investment in affairs than the men do, and that's why you see anecdotally the men come out of the fog faster.


"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul." - William Ernest Henley

Posts: 525 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
TheThreeYearFool
Member
Member # 41218
Default  Posted: 12:03 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Everybody's different but it's definitely possible for a WS to not love the AP.

I don't have to rely on my WH's word for this: one of the emails I found on D-Day was OW begging my WH to love her, and asking why he didn't.

This email was sent nearly three years into the A.


Me - BW 36
Him - WH 41
Together 12 years, married 7
3 year LTA with former coworker
DDay 10/29/13
He says he wants to R... can I live with what he's done?

Posts: 164 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: United States
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

My H had an almost four year LTA and I'm convinced there was no love there. The second thing he said on DDay, after saying that he never loved her, was that he didn't respect her. Even the OW only said that she was "lonely" when I confronted her. They had mostly a professional relationship and she seemed very dependent upon him professionally and that stroked his ego. His own issues made casual sex seem like an okay thing to do in the compartment that he kept for "work". He never took her on a date, slept over, bought her a gift or so much as a card on her birthday (which caused her to pout for weeks!) or even sent a text on holidays or family vacations. He says she accused him of treating her like a whore. (When the shoe fits....)

He actually has major issues that only came out after Dday (CSA)and that contributed to the compulsiveness that kept the A going. He actually spent the majority of those years avoiding thinking about what he was doing and when he did, wishing he hadn't gotten himself into it. It became a compulsion, yes, but she also threatened to tell me when he would try to pull back. By the end he actively disliked her. He thinks even she was relieved it was over. Both of them were both so broken, and the A had gotten so toxic. Not at all compelling sounding!

So no, the length of the A does not necessarily equal the emotional involvement. There are some who believe that an intense EA/PA would not drag on so long as the "lovers" would want to be together more than the sneaking around allows.

BTW; my H has worked his ass off and has become the H that I would never have dreamed I could have.

Good luck to you.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1729 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
sri624
Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 12:36 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

i have to agree with Alex 100%

"Love is dirty dishes, cranky kids, quickies when the kids are out, wonderful holidays, struggling with money, family weddings and funerals, creating a lifetime of traditions together and finding the sweet spots that keep your love going above all the chaos in life. An affair is a selfish attempt to fill a hole inside a person, using people to get what they want, including the AP. An affair is all about one person's wants......love is about two people, wanting the best for each other."

this comment is right on point.


in addition to what was written by alex...i have to ask why the wh isnt with the ap if he loved her so much? i mean.....i think that alone says a lot. if it was so special...and so much all the risks involved to be together during the a...well...if they loved each other so much, why not just make arragements to be together full time. why lie about anything?

in my husband's case...he too dealt with other women while he was cheating with his ap. i remember the ap telling me how much of an emotinal connection she had with my h....how he said all of this and that to her. well, in my research...i found that he had been talking to other women as well....even an old ap. when he was cheating, he was cheating. do i think he cared about them...maybe...on some level...he was able to talk to her about personal things. but that is what happens in affairs. and in addition to that...the cheaters lie and manipulate the ap as well....and still want to stay married. i dont think that is love at all.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 940 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
catlover50
Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

I will echo something that sri624 said. On Dday my H made the point that if he really wanted the OW she had made it clear that he could have her. (she left her husband early on; something that she threw in my H's face but he adamantly refused to accept responsibility for that). At that point the A had been over for 18 months, cold turkey (after I found phone records, but he had lied about it being a PA). That didn't comfort me at all at the time, but it is true. He was a selfish enough person at the time that if he felt that he was happier with her he would have tossed me and the kids aside in a heartbeat. He didn't give it a moment's consideration.

In fact, although at times I would give anything for the A to have been only months long, I also know that as it went on it become worse and worse and he realized how much he really didn't like her, and she had started screaming obscenities at him. He had learned his own lesson about cheating long before I learned the truth. If it had ended when the appeal wore off but before it became toxic (at several months duration according to my H) I fear that on some level he would have had positive memories of it, and her, and could have gone down that path again, either with her or with someone else. And I may never have found out, either.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1729 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
Sunnydaysahead
Member
Member # 43756
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Lark, Still livin and callmesteph, thanks for the kind words. Eight years is a lot to take in, i am crushed and it has changed my outlook on pretty much everything. DDay was actually May 1 and it has been a bumpy couple of months, with more turbulence to follow I am sure. (sorry in advance that this rambles...)

As far as A's go, each is unique in its own right, but most follow a similar pattern. I do believe it is possible to have an LTA and not feel or express love for the other person. I think it takes an emotionally broken person/people for this to happen. Just so happens that my H and OW are both broken.

Now that the A is in the open, my H is very remorseful (he says he is relieved it is over - he wanted to stop, but had trouble controlling the compulsion...he is learning through IC and SAA that those feelings pass). He is trying to make amends and clean up the mess he has created.

When we started talking about the A in earnest, month/year it started, details of encounters etc,..he was actually horrified to realize it had gone on for so long. The look on his face was priceless when I started ticking the years off on my fingers. Unfortunately, I was too enraged at the time to find humor in the situation. He explained that he compartmentalized the whole thing and never stopped to examine the affair globally. They would have a hookup, he would go back to his day amd try to forget what he had just done. He felt guilty about his behavior, but not enough to stop.

I think the other thing that surprised him was the number of times they were together.....even when contact is not consistent over the years, you hit double digits pretty early on and the numbers escalate from there.

There is a bit of back story, I had suspicions two years ago, confronted H and he swore they had only kissed one time (liar, liar pants on fire). H was very defensive when I would ask questions and finally agreed to take a polygraph. He has admitted he studied Internet articles about how to beat the test prior to the exam. Lo and Behold, he passed the poly and we wasted two years. He lied to cover his lies.

My gut kept telling me something wasn't right and I confronted him again in May, (also contacted the OW's BH), and that is when the truth started tumbling out. Because it went on for so long, H does not remember every single detail of their encounters, but has been able to provide a pretty good overview and enough ugly, gritty details to give me a good idea of what went on. In the last few weeks, he obtained work telephone records, we have gone over bank statements and personal phone records. The documentation supports the details he has provided. H is not defensive, he answers all of my questions and provides information freely.

Do I believe everything (or even part of what) my H tells me? Absolutely not. I believe actions speak louder than words and his actions now are of a very remorseful spouse. Only time will tell. We both realize healing will be a slow process and many changes need to take place in our marriage.

I am sad that all of us are on this crazy train of infidelity due to the incredibly immature and selfish actions of our spouses. Hugs to all!!


Posts: 63 | Registered: Jun 2014
Sunnydaysahead
Member
Member # 43756
Default  Posted: 1:20 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Catlover50 - our H's have some similarities. I am hopeful my H will successfully address his FOO issues and turn out as well as your husband has!

Thanks for sharing.


Posts: 63 | Registered: Jun 2014
Lark
Member
Member # 43773
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

The relief for it being over, horror over realizing the extent of it, and seeming to be truly remorseful is true of my husband as well. I think in some affairs, it truly is compulsive-guilt-compulsive. And the guilt actually feeds into doing it more to relieve or fuel that guilt. That doesn't justify it, but it helps understand it.

The seeming to be genuinely relieved that it's over is definitely a relief to me. Some of hte stories on here, I just can't imagine having to deal with on top of the A


"Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul." - William Ernest Henley

Posts: 525 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: California
Sunnydaysahead
Member
Member # 43756
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Lark, I am with you 100%!!

Posts: 63 | Registered: Jun 2014
FightingBack
Member
Member # 34770
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Interesting responses to a question that has been asked countless times before.

On dday, my WH admitted that he "cared about" his MOW, but not as much as he "cared about " me. Since then he has told me that he never felt that he loved her, and that he had always loved me.

The more things I remember being said in the early days after dday, the more I realize that he did indeed speak the truth. "Caring about" either of us was probably an apt description of his feelings. During the 15 year "relationship" ( his words) he loved neither her or me. He told us both that he loved us. He would say those words to me frequently, every day and he would tell her that "in the heat of passion".

He would call me moments before leaving the office with her and would end the conversation with those words. He would tell her the same thing before feeling that he had to get home.

The truth is that he did not love either of us. I will never believe that you can love someone while methodically deceiving them and having no interest in considering that you are destroying them bit by bit everyday as you withdraw your love.

I also do not believe that you can love the person you are using for sex, affirming the relationship by using those words and allowing them to believe them yet constantly undermining the solidity and security of their family unit.

Neither is love. Love is wanting only the best for someone else. It is a desire to see that person healthy and happy and safe. It is compassion, respect and loyalty. It is putting their needs before yours.

So no, my WH did not love his AP, or me, or himself. And his worse betrayal was to himself and the man he could have been.

He has changed so very much in the last 2 1/2 years. The love I feel from him now is the love I was missing for so long.
We are both learning how to love again. It is still bittersweet, but I'll take it!


Me 53
WH 58
Married 25 years
4 children S30,D24, S23,S21
D-Day Nov. 29, 2011
15 year affair with married employee.
Together trying to make sense of it all!

Posts: 763 | Registered: Feb 2012
Merida
Member
Member # 42437
Default  Posted: 2:38 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Love is dirty dishes, cranky kids, quickies when the kids are out, wonderful holidays, struggling with money, family weddings and funerals, creating a lifetime of traditions together and finding the sweet spots that keep your love going above all the chaos in life. An affair is a selfish attempt to fill a hole inside a person, using people to get what they want, including the AP. An affair is all about one person's wants......love is about two people, wanting the best for each other.

This is so needing to be made into a poster sized reminder on your bathroom mirror or something

Love is an Action not a feeling

My WH's reasoning for his A was all about as he quoted "filling a hole" . But since I feel to me that having a "hole" is an illusion = it's just your crap-human-sinfulness covering up the amazing from the IS that IS spirit reality = there was never gonna be a way to fill a non-existent "hole". So an affair, as inherently selfish and focused on desire, can never be about actual l-o-v-e. Our English language is so limiting that way. At least in Greek there is eros, filios and agape if that makes sense how I am defining marital LOVE.

LOVE is about staying in the light - love loves the light that is the present boundless moment of true mindfulness. An affair bases its entire existence on destruction of all that is pure and good - it's all just a delusional drug / hormonal high, a lie, a fantasy... it ain't the Alex quote

'nuff said


[This message edited by Merida at 5:05 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)]


"The Will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

WH is katumus and I am not reading his posts but we talk a lot and working on listening better!

BW 45
WH 46

married 17 years
3 kids


Posts: 193 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Maryland
hopefull77
Member
Member # 43221
Default  Posted: 7:39 PM, July 3rd (Thursday)

Catlover and fighting back said it all!
He said ILY first....before the A went physical...
She divorced her H 9 months later....
she started planning their 'life' he went along but never had any real intention of following through...sounds like real love to me!
kind of like Ali McGraw in love story....'love means never having to say you're sorry'
Yea right....
Bottom line he did NOT love himself....
if he had loved her soo much why didn't she see that bus on dday?
We BOTH know now what REAL love is.....


me-BS
him-WS
3 adult children 1D 2S
married-1977
LTA 09-2010 - 11-2012
D-day - 11-11-2012
status - reconciling and very hopeful
"Let Go of Control; Let God's Life Flow" ...Richard Rohr



Posts: 516 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: sunny california
sunvalley
Member
Member # 42952
Default  Posted: 12:03 AM, July 4th (Friday)

my H had no emotions towards the OW in the least. He was embarrassed by them, and only used them to feed whatever broken pieces of himself he was trying to fill from the outside world. He very openly told them he loved me, would never leave me and that he was having plenty of sex at home still as well. He used them, bottom line. He found people he felt were below him and he would never want to be with, that made it easier for him to do this and I don't question for one second that he felt nothing for them. I know the types of women H dated before me, these people were not even close to being dating material. It's sad that they allowed themselves so willingly to be used, but they were all married as well and liked that a younger guy who was out of their league paid any attention to them, even if it was all fake.

Posts: 551 | Registered: Mar 2014
callmesteph
New Member
Member # 43595
Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, July 4th (Friday)

Sorry I did not get a chance to respond yesterday as I was recovering from surgery and my 9 yo son had an appendix pain/rupture scare.


Seethelight.....

So, yes, our spouses likely loved the OW in some way.
I do believe that they don't in most cases love them enough to want them as spouse material.
They are just a diversion that fills a gap.

I agree and believe that's why he told APs he would never leave his family.

Stillstanding1......

My H also mentioned "no strings attached" with his single, younger APs as well.

It sounds like your WH is remorseful. That is key.

Lark.....that is a good point that women(APs) tend to be more emotionally invested while the men mostly enjoy the physical aspect of the A.

Catlover50.....

My WH had an almost four year LTA and I'm convinced there was no love there.

So no, the length of the A does not necessarily equal the emotional involvement.

Thethreeyearfool.....it sounds so pathetic of your WH 's fCOW to beg and plead for your H's love and affection! But it made me smile to know that those broken APs were so desperate for attention and got what they deserve :).

Sri624.....

..i have to ask why the wh isnt with the ap if he loved her so much?...cheaters lie and manipulate the ap as well....and still want to stay married. i dont think that is love at all..

Yes, our WHs would have left us if there was real love involved! Just wanted fun, fantasy and cake-eating :( Like Catover50 said if he felt that he was happier with her he would have tossed me and the kids aside in a heartbeat. He didn't give it a moment's consideration.

Sunnydaysahead.....thx you for sharing more details of your story.

Now that the A is in the open, my H is very remorseful (he says he is relieved it is over - he wanted to stop, but had trouble controlling the compulsion.......He felt guilty about his behavior but not enough to stop.

This compulsion and guilt trips cycle seem very common among our WHs.

Sunnydaysahead....,so glad to know that your H is remorseful and doing the hard work so both of you can heal.

Fightingback.....

Love is wanting only the best for someone else. It is a desire to see that person healthy and happy and safe. It is compassion, respect and loyalty. It is putting their needs before yours.

So no, my WH did not love his AP, or me, or himself. And his worse betrayal was to himself and the man he could have been.

Merida....I agree, the hole is nonexistent and if it does exists in some, it could be so infinite that it can never be filled/fulfilled. Love your take on love as well:

Love is an action not a feeling....LOVE is about staying in the light - love loves the light that is the present boundless moment of true mindfulness. An affair bases its entire existence on destruction of all that is pure and good - it's all just a delusional drug / hormonal high, a lie, a fantasy...


Sunvalley.....

He used them, bottom line. He found people he felt were below him and he would never want to be with, that made it easier for him to do this and I don't question for one second that he felt nothing for them.

My WH felt that he was in control of the situation and used these women who weren't marriage material for his own selfish needs as well.


I wanted to thank you everyone for taking time out to reply to this as another poster stated "repeatedly asked question."

Although all of us BSes have these LTAs in common, we also share WSes that are now truly remorseful and loving us honestly in ways that we could never felt possible before or imagine. They are becoming better husbands/fathers/soul mates that we could have never dreamed of and for that my optimism for life and living is being restored.

Hugs to all...😘😘😘😘...for a better,brighter future & stronger marriage!!!


BS: me (41) WS: him (42)
M:12 yrs T:23 yrs 3 kids (4,7,9)
DDay: 12/3/2013
OW#1- 2 1/2 yr A; OW#2-2mth A; +escorts
In Reconcilation

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jun 2014 | From: USA
Topic Posts: 31