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tushnurse
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Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, August 18th (Monday)

Unless you live under a rock, you have probably seen the chaos that has enveloped our fine region. St. Louis is probably the largest small town in America. It is true that anyone you talk to probably has a mutual friend.
That being said the devise way this has all played out is upsetting. I live more than 30 minutes away from this township, but have friends, and colleagues who live right in the midst of it. The constant protests, the misrepresentation of what is really going on by the media, and the abuse of the LEO's has worn thin.

Right or wrong, guilty or innocent, I ask that you keep us in your minds, and send prayers and thoughts of peace for the family of the young man who lost his life, the LEO's, and the families that live in the middle of this who are having to explain to their small children why their quiet lives are full chaos, and why they can't go outside, or go to school.

Today the National Guard is coming in, hopefully bringing with it a new level of enforcement to calm the violence.
Please note that the looting, and destruction of property that you may have seen is not being committed by the residents, but thug opportunists that have come from other areas of town to take what isn't theirs.

(((and strength to the LEO's and people of Ferguson))))


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Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
MovingUpward
Guide
Member # 14866
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, August 18th (Monday)

Prayers for peace and resolution to all affected.


AKA Moo

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Posts: 53000 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Big Blue Nation
TrulyReconciled
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Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, August 18th (Monday)

The whole situation reinforces the concept of providing for your own self-defense when the police are no longer willing to do so, especially considering that they do not have any legal obligation to do so.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 11:03 AM, August 18th (Monday)

TR - The police have not been allowed to do so. They were basically told to stand down until it became so violent amongst the crowds that they had to react.

The National Guard is on it's way today, so that may change the tone of things.

I believe we are seeing history in the making.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
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Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, August 18th (Monday)

Prayers for peace and resolution to all affected.
X2. As the mother of 2 black sons, I have a lot to say but will likely end up getting banned if I do. So, yes, prayers for peace & resolution.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope Ferguson, MO is a catalyst to change in this country when it comes to the police and black men. We shall see.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, August 18th (Monday)

TR - The police have not been allowed to do so. They were basically told to stand down until it became so violent amongst the crowds that they had to react.

To the citizen, it doesn't matter what the police were told. It matters that they don't show up to defend life and property (whatever the reason).

There are a lot of wake-up calls coming on this one, including police procedure with respect to the shooting, which is unlikely to have been justified.

The one I'm referring to is the wake-up call that (a) the police have no duty to protect you or your business and (b) you have that right yourself. So I'm referring primarily to the aftermath, not the incident (which appears to be deplorable).

We are still a long way from having all the facts.

Right or wrong, guilty or innocent, I ask that you keep us in your minds, and send prayers and thoughts of peace for the family of the young man who lost his life, the LEO's, and the families that live in the middle of this who are having to explain to their small children why their quiet lives are full chaos, and why they can't go outside, or go to school.

Will do!

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 3:13 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
SpecialK
Member
Member # 42372
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, August 18th (Monday)

My heart goes out to the friends and family of this young man. It's hard enough to lose a loved one because of their bad life choices, but when an innocent life is taken that's a bitter pill to swallow.

I pray for the officer because he'll have to live with his decision for the rest of his life. I have never taken another's life and can't imagine how it would change my life..

One thing that went through my mind after seeing the reports, is what about ALL the innocents bystanders that have been mowed down by non police personel? I deliver meals to a woman whose husband has been basically brain dead for 8 years,she has basically given up her life to care for him at home.They were coming home from church and a "member of a gang" saw his truck and thought it belonged to a rival gang and unloaded on it. The man tried to protect his wife (she was not shot) and was hit in the head. Now the perp is petitioning for a new trial! Where are the protesters for this senseless tragedy? The looters and attention whores are not helping the situation, and the media needs to stops giving them attention!!!


Posts: 364 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Florida
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, August 18th (Monday)

I fully understand that we as a society need police officers. I fully understand that the vast majority of them are certainly members of the profession for the right reasons. I respect the incredible sacrifices they make in order to maintain a civil society. That said...

As somebody who as a teenager had his nose broken by a police officer for doing nothing worse than being a passenger in a car that didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign, this has really given me pause. I wonder if the outcome that evening would have been even worse had my skin been a different color.

I've had a healthy distrust for the police since that incident. The guy had backup who just watched while his buddy smashed my face into the roof of his cruiser. As long as the "good" cops are willing to cover for the bad ones, there will be no good cops. The evidence suggests that this police officer murdered that young man. His department is covering for him and that's wrong.

[This message edited by h0peless at 1:37 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


Posts: 1810 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, August 18th (Monday)

My sympathies are with the young victim's family, not with the police officer. Too many times police officers are acting as judge, jury and executioner and it needs to stop. Now. I've seen too much of this as an attorney and feel police officers, with all their training, should never fire upon someone with arms raised in the air. There is too much immunity granted and officers given 'leave with pay' (read, vacation) for killing innocent people. Instead they should be indicted for Murder and put on trial. Maybe that is harsh to some of you but being in the legal system for 26 years I have seen too many dirty cops who act like they are playing a video game on the streets.

That being said, I feel a lot of the rioters are possibly not from Ferguson but perhaps arriving in town for loot and grab, which is horrible.

I hope peace prevails in that area soon.


"Because I deserve better"

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caregiver9000
Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, August 18th (Monday)

(((tushnurse)))

I can't imagine living in the midst of the chaos. I will certainly pray for peace and healing for the families and the community.

I have strong feelings for two separate reasons almost in conflict with myself. As a teacher, it is extremely frustrating to hear the blame that goes with the "bad cops" talk (like the "bad teachers" talk) that seems to crop up with these type of events is very hard. Cops and teachers are service careers, and it is my experience that most, the vast majority of the people in both are good people. So there is that side of me.

Then, as a teacher of young people in an alternative setting, (primarily teenage males) students who miss school for court, who are visited at school by the court counselors and their parole officers, I feel like I recognize "Michael Brown." I care for my students. I know that depending on what you meet them with, will greatly influence what you get from them.

I don't know what the answers are. I wish that the media would go away and stop fanning the flames. BUT, the light needs to be shined on the what is happening.

It is a stand off. Neither group can "win." At this point I can only see how everyone loses and that makes me very sad.

I will pray. I will pray for all, for peace and understanding.

eta: typo

[This message edited by caregiver9000 at 2:41 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


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Posts: 5907 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 2:41 PM, August 18th (Monday)

Let's wait to find out the full story - there is a lot that isn't known yet and quite a bit not verified. The friend who was with him described him as being shot 'in the back' which so far does not appear to be true according to the autopsy.

Also, police officers are trained to shoot center mass, period. Seems a little strange that a 6'-4" individual with arms in the air would have his right arm shot at that height (way above center mass) several times, consistently. The first shot would have caused him to drop his arm, and it would be nearly impossible for four shots to hit his upraised arm. If he was shot four times in the right arm first, he would be unlikely to be able to raise that arm over his head, given the location of the wounds. Even more certain if they were hollow point rounds.

The other two wounds are consistent with Mr. Brown having his head pointed directly toward the line of fire (horizontally), which could be due to a number of factors:

(1) could have been falling down when shot
(2) could have been lying on the ground when shot
(3) could have been charging at the officers when shot

Ballistics will likely answer which of these is the case. Obviously (1) and (2) would argue for prompt prosecution of the LEO, although I think (2) to be quite unlikely. (3) would suggest evaluation of the need for the use of deadly force in the face of a threat. Those two wounds suggest that Mr. Brown may have been bent 90 degrees at the waist for the time it took to fire two shots. Try bending at the waist and at the same time raising your hands above your head. You can't.

Plus, he was high. Swisher Sweets are used to roll blunts. And he was a robbery suspect. Officer Wilson might not have known that ... but Michael Brown knew that. Those issues would likely have contributed to his actions.

The actual events matter.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 4:54 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
GabyBaby
Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 3:03 PM, August 18th (Monday)

X2. As the mother of 2 black sons, I have a lot to say but will likely end up getting banned if I do. So, yes, prayers for peace & resolution.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope Ferguson, MO is a catalyst to change in this country when it comes to the police and black men. We shall see.

Ditto this (with one black son).
There needs to be a lot of change, but I also think a lot of change has to come from within our community as well.
Protest? Absolutely.
Looting? No.


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Posts: 6686 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
metamorphisis
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Member # 12041
Default  Posted: 3:23 PM, August 18th (Monday)

It's a desperately sad and dangerous situation for sure. On the weekend I tried to get a sense of what really happened and was continuing to happen and realized through all the noise, speculation and media sensationalism that it's impossible. Some news outlets are directly contradicting others on key "facts". Mostly it just leaves me with my mouth hanging open wondering what the hell is going on. What I do know for sure is that I wish that boy weren't dead. It's senseless and heartbreaking.



“We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.”... Anais Nin

Posts: 45290 | Registered: Sep 2006
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, August 18th (Monday)

There needs to be a lot of change, but I also think a lot of change has to come from within our community as well.
Protest? Absolutely.
Looting? No.
Wholeheartedly agree.
officers given 'leave with pay' (read, vacation)
that can be attributed to the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the police union and the police department. They go on paid leave while the investigation is conducted.

[This message edited by MissesJai at 3:41 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, August 18th (Monday)

That's because you are innocent until proven guilty.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 3:49 PM, August 18th (Monday)

yes, police officers are definitely innocent until proven guilty and sometimes, even when guilty, they are still "proven" innocent. Too bad that same approach isn't applied to young black & brown men, but I digress.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, August 18th (Monday)

MissesJai, I totally agree with you.


"Because I deserve better"

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Jeaniegirl
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Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, August 18th (Monday)

And I also totally agree with the statement about facts. But the main fact is once again an unarmed, young black kid is dead in the street.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, August 18th (Monday)

the main fact is once again an unarmed, young black kid is dead in the street.
Yep - once again and at the hands of law enforcement. Once again.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
asurvivor
Member
Member # 32368
Default  Posted: 4:21 PM, August 18th (Monday)

I have no idea what the answer is to any of this. I do know we have a big problem in this country when unarmed anyone gets shot. If this kid was just gunned down it should not go unpunished. There are no doubt some bad cops.

On the flip side, Last year, 100 law-enforcement officers were killed in the line of duty. On average, over the past decade, there have been 58,261 assaults against law enforcement each year. Every time I see a cop walking up to a car alone in the middle of the night I wonder, why anyone would go into law enforcement.


I've wiped the shit off. It can be wiped off you know.



Posts: 576 | Registered: Jun 2011
HeartStings
Member
Member # 38017
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, August 18th (Monday)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if a person (black, white, or purple):

1) robs a store
2) physically assaults a police officer
3) attempts to steal his gun
4) runs away after said gun goes off
5) refuses to freeze when officer tells you to, and instead...
6) turns around and charges the officer with a 300+ pound body

It's justifiable self defense.

Unfortunately, the media always sensationalizes these events and doesn't provide the facts. Fortunately, an audio tape was discovered of a black eyewitness who describes the situation exactly as above.

The truth will prevail, eventually, but at a tremendous cost to everybody involved. Prayers for LEO, National Guard, and all the law-abiding citizens of Ferguson.


Posts: 117 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: New England
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 4:58 PM, August 18th (Monday)

And what if the police lie about any or many of the above in order to save one of their own? If I did that, I would be an accessory to murder. Did the officer not have any less lethal means of stopping the kid? Did he not have a Tazer? No pepper spray?

[This message edited by h0peless at 4:59 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


Posts: 1810 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 5:03 PM, August 18th (Monday)

You can't lie about ballistics. They will be definitive.
You can't lie about powder residue in a squad car.
You can't lie about drugs in your system.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, August 18th (Monday)

And you can't lie about an unarmed kid dead from 6 shots, one through the brain. All cops are certainly not bad. I know a lot of older LEO who are sickened by the new shaved-headed Nazi looking cops and their actions and mentality.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 5:11 PM, August 18th (Monday)

It will be interesting to see what the final report says about those things. Even if the officer was attacked in the car, and even if the firearm went off because there was a struggle for it, I have a hard time reconciling that with the fact that Michal Brown was 30 feet from the squad car and still unarmed when he was killed, that there was no powder residue found on him, that the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye. He may have robbed a store earlier. He may have taken a scary looking picture at one point. Perhaps he was mean to his Grandmother. None of that matters if it isn't relevant to the particular circumstances of the shooting.

[This message edited by h0peless at 5:13 PM, August 18th (Monday)]


Posts: 1810 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 5:13 PM, August 18th (Monday)

The video statement floating around you tube saying that he doubled back and the gunshot directly to the top of the head(charging at) seem to indicate that the officer may have had reason to fear for his safety. I was troubled also by the video released from the surveillance camera in the convenience store.

That said, I too wonder if there wasn't a less lethal alternative.


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Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 5:17 PM, August 18th (Monday)

I have a hard time reconciling that with the fact that Michael Brown was 30 feet from the squad car and still unarmed when he was killed, that there was no powder residue found on him, that the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye...
oh and his hands were up. Let's not forget that. I'm having a hard time reconciling it myself.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
POed
Member
Member # 2450
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, August 18th (Monday)

Thanks, tushnurse, from someone else very close to this chaos.I, too, am about 25-30 minutes, southwest. It's so sad and disheartening to see an area, that had made soooo much progress, going through this. Especially hard, as you mentioned, is knowing people forced to be right in the thick of it.

Stay strong and safe.


Posts: 839 | Registered: Oct 2003 | From: St. Louis, MO
Forged1
Member
Member # 43418
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, August 18th (Monday)

the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye...

I have yet to see anything that supports that and I am following this matter keenly out of professional as well as personal interest - I work in criminal defense. Every report I've seen on the public and private autopsies indicates that all six rounds were to the young man's front.

I agree that the round which entered through the apex of his skull could be consistent with somebody either surrendering with arms in the air and bowing their head or charging head down and with arms outstretched.

As to the lack of gunshot residue on the body, that is not in itself conclusive of anything. A test on the young man's clothes would we far more probative.

There is a lot of information out there which is somewhat ambiguous. As to eyewitness testimony, that's not always reliable either, and I can tell you that our office has literally dozens of former clients at liberty today because we showed that the eye-witness was not as reliable as originally thought.

For the record, I'm not originally from the US and I have zero cultural or political bias either way here. A young man has been killed, either with or without lawful justification. I want to see the right outcome based on the evidence. People are right to be angry - there are certainly some very hard questions to be answered here by the police - but the looting and rioting is overshadowing and tragically minimizing the very real message which the protestors are trying to get across.

I hope that cooler heads prevail and that the right outcome is achieved for all the decent people of Ferguson, MI.


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Posts: 307 | Registered: May 2014 | From: USA
Want2help
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Member # 20547
Default  Posted: 5:59 PM, August 18th (Monday)

You can't lie about ballistics. They will be definitive.

Ballistics do not lie, you are correct. However, people do. And it takes a ballistics expert to complete the examination, release it to another person, and another person to release that report to the press.

I won't go too deeply into how I know, but I have had some close ties with law enforcement officers in my past. Their entire culture revolves around covering for "their own".


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Posts: 2337 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: PNW
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:29 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Again this was not about creating and continuing the argument as to what happened.

Again another night of chaos, where the police were basically there to end things when they become violent.

I can say as someone who is close to the phenomena of everyone in St. Louis knowing another, that there has been horrible misrepresentation as to what actually happened, and poor leadership to quiet the concerns from the minute it happened. This officer who chose his career to Protect and Serve, had to make a choice in a split second when a 6'4" 300 plus pound man was charging at him. Who didn't stop when told to, and didn't stop when shots were not center mass. This man has a life outside of work, a family, and loved ones who all now have forever had their lives altered just as the family of the young man.

The kids in that community have had to see a delay in the beginning of their school year, now not for a day or two, but nearly 2 weeks, and that's if things calm down.
The community of Ferguson, and surrounding areas is a mixed, and has done so much to make it a nice place that people want to live. I even worked in this area as a teen. Now to witness bad guys coming in and creating this image that will stick with the rest of the world forever just makes me sad.

The Criminals that are running around with guns, and looting, and starting fires, and throwing rocks, and Moltav Cocktails of police, they do not live there. Those are thugs that have come from even places outside of St. Louis, some as far as Memphis according to the few arrests that have been made.

It needs to end, and it needs to end soon. The LEO's have been doing this all night every night for a week now. They are exhausted, emotionally drained, and feel they have little support from their leaders, and the community. This is when mistakes are made and I fear truly tragic events will unfold.

Peace to Ferguson.


Me: FBS
Him: FWS
Kids: 15 & 17
Married for 22 years now, was 16 at the time. .
D-Day Sept 26 2008
Fully R'd, and Happy Happy Happy

Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:01 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I stayed up until 3 a.m. this morning, watching live coverage. It appears a lot of situations there are being 'created' by both sides and the media. One reporter said the people (protesters) were wanting to go home but LEO and the national guard had roads blocked so the 20+ remaining protesters could not leave the area as the national guard would start firing tear gas at them. It truly looks like a war zone.

edited by me to remove political content. My apologies.

[This message edited by Jeaniegirl at 11:18 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Jeanie - I don't know about the all of them, I do know the spokesperson they had on yesterday afternoon was NOT a white guy.
The National Guard that has been activated is the MP's only.

I know they asked yesterday that the protesters leave at dark, and clear the streets so that it is easier for the LEO's to actually protect the community. I do believe that they have stated the curfew will be reinstated tonight.

Poor leadership by our Governor is just one of the failures in this mess. There is a fine line between allowing people to be heard, and keeping things under control.


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Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

oh and his hands were up. Let's not forget that. I'm having a hard time reconciling it myself.

It's physically not possible. Bend over at the waist so that your head is pointed horizontally and then raise your hands over your head. I can't do that - maybe someone else (double-jointed?) can. Especially with four bullet wounds in one arm.

that the fatal shot seems to have entered the back of his head and exited through his eye.

That's a misreading of the autopsy results. He wasn't shot in the back of the head. The round you refer to entered the top of his forehead and exited through the eye then re-entered his cheek and chest, confirming the head held horizontally.

There are more than a dozen eyewitnesses who confirm this version of events (LEO version). If the LEO version is correct, there will be smokeless powder residue on the baseball cap.

Now, DOJ is bringing 40-50 FBI agents to town to investigate the situation for possible federal civil rights violations (unprecedented). Let's see what they come up with - hopefully the truth, since lying to the FBI is a federal crime.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 8:49 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:35 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

TushNurse, I am one state away but often travel through Missouri. I have relatives in west St. Louis. During the last presidential election I was cursed and yelled at in St. Louis because of a bumper sticker on my car. I ignored and did not engage. So we know racism exists there, as it does everywhere. One man interviewed last night said those living in Ferguson just 'know' there are areas where they are not 'allowed' to be outside, after dark. They are not FREE in their own area because they know they can be herded around or killed by police, just for not being 'inside.'

Our country still has a long way to go to end racism and I feel calling out the national guard and having them in riot gear with weapons aimed at citizens certainly perpetuates the situation in a negative way. History shows us that did NOT work with school segregation and trying to force citizens to ride at the back of the bus. It's like we haven't learned anything. And it's sad.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:47 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I have zero sympathy for the officer who shot Michael Brown. IF he felt threatened by the size of Michael Brown, why not pull out a tazer or stun gun as the police seem to LOVE using those? Why, once again, do we have to see photos of a young, black male (unarmed) lying dead in the street?


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Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Because the media wanted you to see that. They by-and-large ignore the carnage in Chicago (mostly black-on-black gang and drug violence) and other cities but jump on this kind of situation with a vengeance.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

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Jeaniegirl
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Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

TrulyReconcilled, I am a southern woman, born and bred.

The media doesn't have to point out anything about racism to me. I live, eat, breathe and see it daily.


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Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

And by the way, ignoring 'black on black' crime IS racism by the people who have the power to stop it and turn things around. I have been privy to way too many conversations when the remarks of ..."let them kill each other" have been made. I have spoken out many times on this issue. Funny how I'd get surprised looks as no one expects many southern white woman to be sickened by racism in any form.


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Default  Posted: 9:26 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Sure, I get it (being from the South also).

Then let's address the real solutions, not just blaming police (and putting a photo of Officer Wilson's house on national TV, for instance):

- more community involvement in police interaction with the community
- better racial integration of PDs relative to the community
- police procedures commensurate with actual crimes *
- work to keep kids away from drugs
- work to keep kids away from gangs
- teach kids respect for the rule of law
- keep children from giving birth to children
- work to keep families together, specifically keep fathers from leaving
- help find male role models where fathers are not present

* Ferguson statistics show a disproportionate focus on black stops vs. non-black stops - that's a given

The media isn't really addressing these issues. As a society, however, we need to do it.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

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Red  Posted: 9:31 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Jeaniegirl -

We have zero tolerance of discussing politics here. No names, jokes, polls or debates are allowed. Violation of this guideline results in losing your profile.


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tushnurse
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Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I have zero sympathy for the officer who shot Michael Brown. IF he felt threatened by the size of Michael Brown, why not pull out a tazer or stun gun as the police seem to LOVE using those? Why, once again, do we have to see photos of a young, black male (unarmed) lying dead in the street?

And that is where we will have to agree to disagree.
The truth of the matter is the young man assaulted the officer once and rung his bell pretty good as seen by the report of the medical treatment he sought, and he was coming back for more. In that situation, in the matter of fractions of seconds, you act in a way you are trained to. Remove the danger. That's it.

This had zero to do with color. This had to do with being attacked, and being attacked again.

There is a disproportionate number of White cops to the % of African Americans in that community, but the reason for that is not because they don't hire them, it is because there are NONE to hire.


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Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I said this earlier but I will say it again… I just don't even know. Never have I been so firmly planted in the middle on an issue like this. It seems like I turn my head one way and I can understand the arguments of the protesters and victims family, I turn my head the other way and I can see the concerns of the LEO and that he may have legitimately feared for his life.
And when I pull back and look at it all, I see a much much bigger problem, that I was aware of, but this issue has now brought the magnitude to the surface. And I guess it's not going to be solved overnight, or even in my lifetime.
It's overwhelming to watch, I can't imagine how overwhelming it is to live it.



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Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Those, especially the media, who are using this incident to push an agenda or simply commit crimes should be ashamed of themselves. A young man's life has been lost, and out of respect for him, if nothing else, the agendas should be dropped and his death should not be used to further unrelated purposes.

Want justice? Everyone go home and wait for it to happen. True justice is a tedious and time-consuming matter. With the national-level scrutiny on this one it's unlikely anything is going to be swept under the rug.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 10:27 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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tushnurse
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Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Want justice? Everyone go home and wait for it to happen. True justice is a tedious and time-consuming matter. With the national-level scrutiny on this one it's unlikely anything is going to be swept under the rug.

Stated perfectly.


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Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Moderator #10. I was not aware I've engaged in politics in any of my post on this thread. Other than saying I was cursed out for a political bumper sticker while traveling through St. Louis? I did not name a candidate. I understand and agree with the policies of religion and politics on this board and respect them. We are discussing real issues on this thread, something that needs to be done more often. However, I will be more vigilant with my posts.


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Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

And please point out the thread where I have engaged in politics and I will be happy to edit it.


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Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Jeaniegirl -

You have a pm.


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Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

With the national-level scrutiny on this one it's unlikely anything is going to be swept under the rug.

I'm going to have to disagree with this one.
There's national-level scrutiny right now, but how long do you think the in depth investigations or willingness to pursue real change will last once the next news story becomes the national headline? People have very short attention spans.


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Tred
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Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Gaby, you are probably right. I thought the Redskins had a nice gesture pre-game last night. All the defensive backs came out of the tunnel in a tribute to Michael Brown.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/redskins/2014/08/19/washington-michael-brown-brandon-meriweather/14271575/

Maybe it will go viral like the Ice Bucket challenge.


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Default  Posted: 11:21 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Gaby is right. This will be swept under the rug like every other time. Sad but true.


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Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I'm going to have to disagree with this one.
There's national-level scrutiny right now, but how long do you think the in depth investigations or willingness to pursue real change will last once the next news story becomes the national headline? People have very short attention spans.

So is this advocacy for using the situation to promote an agenda only because people are watching?

The kind of change you want has to come from the community being involved with those responsible for upholding the laws that we live under, not from committing additional crimes to make a point or call attention to a cause. Demonstrations have their place, but after that attention span is gone the real change is left to those who are willing to slog it out over the long haul to make a difference.

So what will you do to make a difference?


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Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

So is this advocacy for using the situation to promote an agenda only because people are watching?

No, I'm simply stating that once this story is no longer national news, the impetus for change will once again take a back seat to a myriad of other "issues".


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Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, August 19th (Tuesday)

The kind of change you want has to come from the community being involved with those responsible for upholding the laws that we live under, not from committing additional crimes to make a point or call attention to a cause.

I agree for the most part.

Demonstrations have their place, but after that attention span is gone the real change is left to those who are willing to slog it out over the long haul to make a difference. So what will you do to make a difference?

I also agree with this for the most part.
I don't pretend to have all the answers to this problem, but I can tell you that it is a very real and very long-standing problem (which a lot of people outside the black community poo-poo and/or downplay).

I can tell you that as a black person and the parent of black children, I (and a good many of my friends/relatives) grew up being taught (and teach our own kids) how to handle yourself when (not if) pulled over by the police:

Keep your hands in plain view at all times.
Move slowly.
Do not raise your voice or appear "aggressive".
Etc etc.
...and not because they've done anything wrong, but because I'm trying to increase their chances of surving the experience without landing in jail, ending up on the ground with an officer's knee in their back, or worse simply because their skin color (for some) automatically has their actions viewed as "suspicious behavior".

I dont know of many people outside our community who have to routinely teach their kids these things in order to help them to come home safely.
Hubby (who is white) got a real eye-opening experience with regard to racism when we went to my sister's wedding in Atlanta a few years back. He was livid and that spurred a very interesting conversation between us and other family members.

I can tell you that I've always taught my children that education is a hell of a lot more valuable than the newest pair of Air Jordans or whatever the Kardashians are wearing.
I can tell you that despite neither myself or my kids wearing "thug-like" clothing or behaving in any way that is improper, we have been followed in stores by employees on a number of occasions.

I can tell you that the application of laws are generally applied with more frequency and force within certain communities than others.

So you tell ME how to combat this?

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 6:26 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Keep your hands in plain view at all times.
Move slowly.
Do not raise your voice or appear "aggressive".
Etc etc.

That's what I taught my child too, and she's not black. I practice the same because it just makes sense.

So you tell ME how to combat this?

I'm not sure that 'combat' is the right word? How about if we start with 'confront?'

We could start by recognizing that some reactions to race issues are simply normal for human beings and have the potential for ameliorating over time, especially when they are exposed through awareness. And some reactions and attitudes on race issues are based purely on ignorant hate, especially group-encouraged, "us-against-them" hate.

Confront the person following you in a store "Excuse me, but are you following me simply because I am black?" Call them on it. I would definitely stick up for you if I saw this going on. Call the store's management office and point out that they have store security following people of color around. Explain that you don't want to describe this practice on Yelp but you will if they don't stop it. Don't quit - this is an area where an individual can make a difference. Now if the reality for that store is that a large percentage of shoplifters caught are people of color (may or may not be true) then you have a confrontation on a different front as well. People have to take responsibility not only for perpetuating stereotypes, but for creating them as well.

I can't mention the name of the person who said this (respecting SI political guidelines):

"Do you know that Negroes are 10 percent of the population of St. Louis and are responsible for 58% of its crimes? We've got to face that. And we've got to do something about our moral standards.....We know that there are many things wrong in the white world, but there are many things wrong in the black world, too. We can't keep on blaming the white man. There are things we must do for ourselves."

Things have changed as a result of that statement. Now if it crosses the guidelines, mods, I'll delete it (I hope not). I don't see this post as being about anything but human nature and the need to understand it, respect it and change it.

Confronting institutional racism can be a lot harder, but again, exposure to the light of day is key. You're not likely going to change the outlook of specific individuals, but groups can call attention to institutional practices that are skewed. Ferguson shakes down a higher percentage of black folks on the street but finds more contraband on the white folks. Make THAT the news (actually, it is, since it has come out as a result of coverage)! Shame on them!

Ultimately, we must all confront our own tendencies to judge others unfairly. Isn't that what taking personal responsibility for ourselves and our own lives is all about? I have a lot of confidence that things are getting better, especially with the younger folks today who largely abhor this sort of hatred and predjudice much more than our generation did, even though we fought hard for human rights.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 12:47 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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MissesJai
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Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I'm going to have to disagree with this one.
There's national-level scrutiny right now, but how long do you think the in depth investigations or willingness to pursue real change will last once the next news story becomes the national headline? People have very short attention spans.
Count me in with this. There have been multiple incidents like this over the years and very little, if anything, changes.


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Jeaniegirl
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Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Gaby, once again I feel the need for an *Applause* icon here.


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GabyBaby
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Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

TR, I have no issue with you and yes, there need to be shifts in attitude all around.

However, I am not going to spend my entire life confronting the daily bullsh!t that people of color routinely encounter. I used to get fired up in my 20s and march over to "Customer Service" to speak with managers. To no end. It isn't my job to alter other people's (prejudiced) perceptions. My actions as a law-abiding citizen should speak for themselves, but in our current society they are often overlooked simply because of skin color.

Confronting the issue gets old very fast.
I prefer to spend my money elsewhere instead, and I tell anyone and everyone of that experience and hope they follow suit (shop elsewhere).

When SIS and I were in Atlanta, attempting to grab breakfast at the Waffle House (a national chain) we were not served because we are an inter-racial couple. Black couples/families were eating, white couples/families were eating...we were left to sit. We wrote a letter to the chain (no response, btw) and will no longer spend our money there. I personally haven't set foot in a Denny's in over a decade because of their prior history.

[This message edited by GabyBaby at 1:10 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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JanaGreen
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Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

No, I'm simply stating that once this story is no longer national news, the impetus for change will once again take a back seat to a myriad of other "issues".

I agree with this, with several other unbelievable tragedies that nobody mentions anymore in mind.


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Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I'm sorry that I wasn't there in Atlanta - I would have spoken up for you.

I do believe that we ALL would benefit by having more respectful and open-minded conversations about the issues.

Gaby, your comments have changed my attitude and awareness and have increased the likelihood that I will take the opportunity to speak up on this issue when I see the opportunity.

Thank you.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 12:57 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Thanks and no worries, TR.
One develops a thick skin over time.


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GabyBaby
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Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

And I agree...conversations like this are very interesting and greatly needed at higher levels.


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Posts: 6686 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
TrulyReconciled
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Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

One develops a thick skin over time.

I would never judge you by the thickness of your skin


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

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GabyBaby
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Default  Posted: 1:14 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I would never judge you by the thickness of your skin

Are you calling me fat?!


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SisterMilkshake
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Default  Posted: 1:18 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

My DD posted this article on FB. It is excellent, in my opinion.

I don't think it is political. Is racism political? No politicians or political parties are talked about at all.

http://qz.com/250701/12-things-white-people-can-do-now-because-ferguson/

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 1:22 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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JanaGreen
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Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Gaby, regarding your Waffle House story - I worked in a chain restaurant while I was in college. One day our hostess, who was a white girl who happened to be dating a black man, walked into the kitchen and just started screaming. Everyone wanted to know what happened. She said she had just seated a couple of women, and as she was walking off, they told her, "Make sure we don't get a colored server." (I feel like a huge bitch even repeating that). The server was already on his way out to the table - and he just so happened to be a young black man. So the manager intercepted him and sent another server out. And what struck me is that all of the white servers there that day were absolutely OUTRAGED. We were surprised, shocked, angry. We wanted those ladies kicked out. The black servers there that day? They shrugged, rolled their eyes, and said, "Whatever." They were used to it. We were not.


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TrulyReconciled
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Default  Posted: 1:27 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Are you calling me fat?

Hey, if the shoe doesn't fit ...


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

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Jeaniegirl
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Default  Posted: 1:29 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Seems this is a financially rewarding time for the shooter and his family. I won't post the link but over $26,000 has been collected for the shooter in two days. I found it when I was looking for a link to donate to the murder victim's family for burial expenses.


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GabyBaby
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Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

And what struck me is that all of the white servers there that day were absolutely OUTRAGED. We were surprised, shocked, angry. We wanted those ladies kicked out. The black servers there that day? They shrugged, rolled their eyes, and said, "Whatever." They were used to it. We were not.
Wow....
Unfortunately we are used to it (and we shouldn't have to be).
Another angle with confronting the issue- often when we do speak out, we're seen as "angry black people". Well wouldn't YOU be angry in the same situation?


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JanaGreen
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Default  Posted: 1:41 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

often when we do speak out, we're seen as "angry black people". Well wouldn't YOU be angry in the same situation?

Oh, absolutely.

I read something the other day - barriers are often invisible to those who don't face them.

That's why some people see feminists who are upset over things like rape culture and wage inequality as hysterical and angry. They don't see the barriers.

That was such a small example, I'm sure, of discrimination, but for once, the white servers in that restaurant - most of us fairly privileged college students - saw the barriers that our black coworkers (who were also fairly privileged college students) faced so often that they didn't even have the energy to get angry about it anymore.


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Jeaniegirl
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Default  Posted: 1:51 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I fully practice the right to boycott businesses who discriminate on the basis of color and sexual orientation. Word gets around so we know who they are.


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GabyBaby
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Default  Posted: 2:18 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I thought the Redskins had a nice gesture pre-game last night. All the defensive backs came out of the tunnel in a tribute to Michael Brown.
Tred, I don't watch football, but after work, I'll definitely take a look at your link.

Thanks for sharing!


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Posts: 6686 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: California
TrulyReconciled
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Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Another angle with confronting the issue- often when we do speak out, we're seen as "angry black people". Well wouldn't YOU be angry in the same situation?

Since I have been discriminated against (overcharged by a factor of 10) as a white person in a non-white country I'd have so say yes! When I figured it out, I was angry.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 3:46 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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scaredyKat
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Default  Posted: 4:44 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

It helps us to know about institutional bigotry. Personally, I refuse to shop at certain places, buy certain things because of their practices. Awareness helps us make choices. Those choices can effect change.
As a young woman with a Jewish surname I was told which towns to not bother applying when I sent out my teaching credentials. As a clerk in a retail store I quickly removed the surname from my name tag. I am not Jewish, and don't "look" Jewish, but I'm proud of my heritage. However, the nasty comments were intolerable especially to a 16 year old.
Racism exists. To deny that is plain dumb. Actively working against and speaking out against it are our only tools.

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 4:45 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


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5454real
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Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

Racism exists. To deny that is plain dumb. Actively working against and speaking out against it are our only tools

Agreed. Until we get to judging a person by the content of their character and not the color of their skin/sexual orientation/sex/mental acuity, bigotry will exist.


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Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

I live by this: "To remain silent is to assume you agree."

I speak up with words and actions.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
caregiver9000
Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 5:48 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)

First, thank you for everyone who has posted on this thread. I think it is incredibly brave and necessary to have this discussion. I wish it were being held in more places. I see a lot of honesty and restraint and respect being voiced. Again, thank you.

TR, your list of things that can be done, the work of it, I think is spot on. Much harder to do, and as you said, not something that can be done in one generation even. How do we confront or combat this issue?

I do it by stepping outside of my comfort zone. I enter these conversations. I challenge my own perceptions and those of my students.

I work in a school system that is largely rural. Not inner city. However, there is a large drug issue in the area. (Nationally recounted drug busts on a regular basis.) There is a documented gang issue. There is an unemployment rate double the national average. Our school system (an institution) regularly collects and analyzes data on how we discipline children. An issue of disproportionately referring minority students for behaviors was noted for three years running and the system took action by educating teachers about cultural differences, by clearly and regularly communicating expectations to all students, by having these types of discussions with adults, and students in the school system. A task force formed, schools had site based efforts, more data, and re-evaluation to see if improvement. The why? and HOW do we change it? Now we are talking disproportionate in very small percentage points (in some cases less than 1) but the three year trend made any percentage point unacceptable. Maybe this issue in my own backyard makes the Ferguson issue feel more relevant to me.

I hope that these conversations continue to happen and that while caution is used, fear (of saying the wrong thing) doesn't keep us mute. I hope that the human race can find common ground and move forward. I see tolerance more often than I might expect, but not as often as I would wish.

The intentional and deliberate hate cast by someone who is just flat out going to hate is awful, but those voices I believe will be drowned out. It is the careless hurt that comes from a failure to pay attention or to take the moment to think or to even KNOW that what is said is hurtful or wrong... that is where I think the work can be done. Bring the empathy out in those who are capable of it by shining the light.


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Posts: 5907 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 8:18 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)

I hope that these conversations continue to happen and that while caution is used, fear (of saying the wrong thing) doesn't keep us mute. I hope that the human race can find common ground and move forward. I see tolerance more often than I might expect, but not as often as I would wish.

^^^ This ^^^

It's absolutely normal to have reactions to differences such as race. As human beings hopefully seeking enlightenment, we have to learn to recognize these reactions in ourselves, learn to be more accepting and even laugh at ourselves a bit.

Hate, on the other hand, is learned. It is passed down from groups and parents generation- by-generation, and takes on a life of its own. That, we can do something about.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
whensitover
Member
Member # 31207
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

UPDATE: Fox News Reports
Lots of good info for those following:

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

According to the well-placed source, Wilson was coming off another case in the neighborhood on Aug. 9 when he ordered Michael Brown and his friend Dorain Johnson to stop walking in the middle of the road because they were obstructing traffic. However, the confrontation quickly escalated into physical violence, the source said..

“They ignored him and the officer started to get out of the car to tell them to move," the source said. "They shoved him right back in, that’s when Michael Brown leans in and starts beating Officer Wilson in the head and the face.

The source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off – although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?"

At that point, the source told FoxNews.com, the 6 foot, 4 inch, 292-pound Brown charged Wilson, prompting the officer to fire at least six shots at him, including the fatal bullet that penetrated the top of Brown's skull, according to an independent autopsy conducted at the request of Brown's family.

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas, and was left dazed by the initial confrontation, the source said. He is now "traumatized, scared for his life and his family, injured and terrified" that a grand jury, which began hearing evidence on Wednesday, will "make some kind of example out of him," the source said.

The source also said the dashboard and body cameras, which might have recorded crucial evidence, had been ordered by Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson, but had only recently arrived and had not yet been deployed.

St. Louis County police, who have taken over the investigation, did not return requests for comment about possible injuries suffered by Wilson.

Edward Magee, spokesman for St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCullough, said the office will not disclose the nature of the evidence it will reveal to a grand jury.

"We'll present every piece of evidence we have, witness statements, et cetera, to the grand jury, and we do not release any evidence or talk about evidence on the case."

Nabil Khattar, CEO of 7Star Industries – which specializes in firearms training for law enforcement and special operations personnel – confirmed that police are typically instructed to use deadly force if in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury.

“You may engage a threat with enough force that is reasonably necessary to defend against that danger,” he said.

Wilson is a six-year veteran of the Ferguson police force department, and has no prior disciplinary infringements.

Massive protests have since taken over the St. Louis community, prompting Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon last Thursday to place Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson at the helm of security operations in an effort to calm ongoing tensions. The federal government is also investigating the death, and Attorney General Eric Holder has taken the lead – calling “the selective release of sensitive information” in the case “troubling.”

On Friday, Ferguson police released surveillance video showing Brown stealing cigars from a convenience store just before his death. Jackson came under intense criticism for disclosing the tape and a related police report as he also insisted that the alleged robbery and the encounter with Wilson were unrelated matters. Brown’s family, through their attorney, suggested the tape’s release was a strategic form of “character assassination.”

However, FoxNews.com’s source insisted that there was absolutely no spin agenda behind the tape’s release and that there were a number of Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) media requests filed by media outlets seeking it. Tom Jackson is said to have waited on publicly releasing it, and did not want it shown until Brown’s grieving mother first had the chance to see it.

“He defied the FOIAs as long as he could,” noted the insider. “A powerful, ugly spin has completely ruined public discourse on this whole situation.”


Posts: 452 | Registered: Feb 2011
KeepCalm_CarryOn
Member
Member # 33374
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

I'm sorry. I've read this thread several times. it's an amazing discussion. So many interesting and intelligent comments. I stepped away when I saw the Fox News update.

Please remember all new sources have their own bias. The facts are seemingly still very up in the air.


You are not dealing with rational people or situations. Normal thought processes won't work...story of my life.

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Posts: 2043 | Registered: Sep 2011
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

...a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

This source may be honest and accurate, but since the source is close to the brass, I think we need to reserve judgment.

If someone in your life talked the way the Ferguson people do, with the same affect and choice of words, would you believe her/him?

Newspapers used to look for confirmation of events from 2 independent sources. Cub reporters working for one Chicago news organization were taught, 'If your mother says she loves you, check it out.'

I'm NOT saying the report is untrue. I'm just saying I want to hear from multiple witnesses, some of whom, I hope, don't have as much to gain from this report as Ferguson's top police brass do.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:34 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)]


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Posts: 10571 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
ReasonableDoubt
New Member
Member # 44577
Default  Posted: 4:31 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

UPDATE: Fox News Reports...

I would just like to say that so far none of the sources for those claims have been provided by Fox so we're still at square one.


Posts: 3 | Registered: Aug 2014
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:38 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

IMO, if it's coming from Fox, it's not credible. At least not to me.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

At least Fox reporters aren't there race-baiting or promoting violence, hatred and divisiveness.

Frankly at a later date, once all the facts come out, you can do your evaluation in hindsight and I'm confident that we will all see that their coverage has been by far the most accurate and unbiased.

Some of the behavior of other news outlets has been nothing less than shameful. Ask a 'local' (tushnurse) but my impression is that most of the media is exacerbating the situation.

One of the most ignorant reporters (Huffpost) actually picked up foam earplugs off the ground and reported that he discovered "rubber bullets."

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 4:57 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

Woa woa woa folks. The whole point of this post was to ask for everyone to pray, wish, and insist on peace. To realize the far reaching effects that this situation is having on the people of St. Louis, the Country and the world.

That being said, I can say with factual certainty a few things that have not necessarily been made public knowledge.

1. The Officer who shot the young man did sustain significant and real injuries to his face. A fractured orbit is painful, and will effect your vision.

2. The kid who initially stated the Officer shot him in the back while he was running away has recanted his statement, and is also wanted for robbery in another Missouri town.

3. The FBI's 40 officers that were sent to "canvas" the neighborhood have obtained many statements (more than a dozen) that back up the statement that Michael attacked the officer once, then bum rushed him a second time.

These facts are true, I know.

I hope there is quick resolution, and peace returns, I fear however the outcome will be very ugly when the officer is cleared of all wrong doing.


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Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
purplejacket4
Member
Member # 34262
Default  Posted: 6:24 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

This so reminds me of my childhood in rural east Texas. A teenage girl was brutally raped. The knife had the fingerprints of a local black youth. The local black community believed he was framed (you know due to a hundred years of Slavery and Jim Crow laws they had their own thoughts on local law enforcement and justice). The black community rioted. It was ugly. So the KKK came in and marched. It was ugly. This was all witnessed by me as an eight year old child in 1978. The only reason everyone didn't know about it was there was no cable 24 hour news cycle or social media. Helll I don't even think this made the Dallas paper 120 miles away. My take: get The HELL out of the "south" forever. As soon as I grew up I headed west.


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Posts: 2307 | Registered: Dec 2011 | From: Great Southwest
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 10:59 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

I am leaving Friday afternoon to take part in weekend protests in Ferguson. While I am going to visit relatives, I will also take time to walk in the protest on Saturday. I feel compelled to do so.

The reports of the officer being injured seem to have no proof behind them at this time. I watched the video taken by a young woman living in a second floor apartment on the street where the shooting happened. The police confiscated her cell phone but the video has now been released. "Officer" Wilson seemed fine, walking around the uncovered dead body, showing absolutely no blood or injuries on his person.

Watching the video of the second shooting of the mentally ill man two days after the Michael Brown murder, the police "facts" on that shooting now seem very false as he was not lunging towards the officers.

Let us all hope something positive comes out of this.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 11:04 PM, August 20th (Wednesday)

PurpleJacket, I have an aunt and uncle (and cousins) living in East Texas. I haven't visited them in years because they are such racists. Their entire small town is that way. They bragged about how they 'don't let black people' live in their town. It was (is) such a crappy little town, I can't imagine any self-respecting person of color wanting to live there anyway.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Grace and Flowers
Member
Member # 34431
Default  Posted: 1:20 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

JGirl, I'm wondering why you used quotes when naming "Officer" Wilson?

This is a strange thread for me to read. I live approx 15 minutes from Ferguson. The other police shooting named here was in a different municipality, different police dept. It had zero to do with the Michael Brown shooting. St. Louis is one of the nation's most dangerous cities. We have a LOT of crime and murder here. Let's just say that can lead to distrust on both sides...between citizens and LEOs.

We are having wall to wall coverage here. I think there are three sides to every story. And to have so many rumors flying, before official reports have been presented, does not seem to me to help. I mean. AFTER the reports of the investigations are made, there may be disagreements. But it seems odd that people are already sure that they disagree with whatever findings will be made.

I don't believe the protests are helpful at all when they have been hijacked by out of town political and "religious" groups that have come to promote their own agendas and get in the way of allowing the voice of the people who LIVE here to be heard.

I hope I don't get pounded on my comments. I don't claim to know anything as a complete fact here. Who knows how much truth will come out? I do hope justice is served.

But mostly I hope that a grieving family finds peace, and a frustrated city can get their, well, city back.


I'm Happy, not Sad!

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: US
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

I don't believe the protests are helpful at all when they have been hijacked by out of town political and "religious" groups that have come to promote their own agendas and get in the way of allowing the voice of the people who LIVE here to be heard

Amen to this.

Last night was fairly peaceful, and I hope this trend continues. It was made abundantly clear yesterday that it is going to take the Grand Jury more than a month to reach any determination if there is a case, and if criminal charges will be made. So hopefully those out of towners will go home for a while. These poor kids who depend on their schools for 2 meals a day, are having to have all kinds of special support to get food, and some sense of normalcy.


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Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

Do I think the grand jury will really deal with the Ferguson situation in a non-biased manner? No. Not when the prosecutor's entire family work for the police department and his father, as a police officer, was a victim himself. I am a firm believer in independent prosecutors being brought in when a situation such as this exists. The prosecutor is already arrogant and biased as shown by his own words yesterday. I am a protester and have taken part in many protests when I feel justice is being denied.

No police officer should put themselves in the role of judge, jury and executioner and that is exactly what this police officer has done. Yet instead of being arrested, huge sums of money is being collected for him like he's being rewarded for his deadly actions.

Everyone has the right to their own opinions and these are mine.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

Everyone has the right to their own opinions and these are mine.
Jeaniegirl, FWIW, I share your same opinions.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
metamorphisis
Administrator
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Default  Posted: 10:15 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

I think my only opinion is that I don't know what happened. And I don't know that we ever will. Even with the most independent of investigations there would still be doubts and finger pointing in both directions. That speaks to a much larger problem that can be solved maybe in my lifetime. Hopefully no matter how this turns out it is a catalyst for change.
All I can do is keep raising awesome humans who are going to go forth and carry on the lessons I am giving them, and so on, and so on. Situations like these make me feel powerless, until I realize there is a lot of power in raising these just and gentle human beings.



“We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are.”... Anais Nin

Posts: 45290 | Registered: Sep 2006
determinata
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Member # 42124
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

Tushnurse,
Since you have all of the facts about the shooting of Michael Brown and how it was justified, I am curious as to why you feel the Ferguson police department has done such an abysmal job of communicating these facts to the outside world?

You say that there is no problem with hiring discrimination in the PD and there are just not enough black people to hire.

You say that the protestors are outsiders and agitators and that everyone in St. Louis County knows each other.

It sounds to me like this whole thing is just one big misunderstanding and everything is great in Ferguson. So how did the portrayal of the reality there get so skewed, in your opinion?

[This message edited by determinata at 10:41 AM, August 21st (Thursday)]


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Posts: 288 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York City
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

Ferguson is 97% black, according to stats I just read. So why are there only three black police officers? And why does it seem the police department there have to add the "F word" to every sentence when they are addressing people of Ferguson? Treating people with respect usually gets respect returned. The off-balance Ferguson policeman, waving his gun last night and saying "I will f-ing shoot you" to an unarmed protester is a prime example of what citizens of Ferguson seem to experience on a daily basis. Another police officer had to remove him from the street because he was going all Rambo. I am glad he was 'suspended indefinitely' but does that mean he'll be back in a few months with yet a deeper hate for the citizens?


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
tushnurse
Member
Member # 21101
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

Jeanie I get you are empassioned by this, but your facts are wrong.

The city of Ferguson is about 60% African American. There are 3 officers for this municipality that are African American, however there are also records that show there are NO African American descent applicants for the jobs. You can't level the field if there are no people willing to do the job.

Secondly. The poorly behaving officer that you referenced is NOT a Ferguson Officer. He is from another township. He acted poorly and was immediately placed on Unpaid leave, and will most likely loose his job. However just prior to his words and actions, he had been hit with a bottle of urine, and saw a weapon, a gun, in the chaos of the crowd. Later determined to be a BB gun.


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Posts: 8792 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: St. Louis
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, August 21st (Thursday)

TushNurse, I stand corrected.

http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/8/12/5994181/ferguson-is-67-percent-black-and-its-police-force-is-94-percent-white

Seems to me the citizens of Ferguson all need to register to vote so their voices can be louder.

As for the Rambo cop threatening to f-ing shoot unarmed protesters, it doesn't really matter WHERE he is from, he was there representing Ferguson police and wanting to KILL someone. That video is sickening.

Yes, I am passionate about this issues as I am all issues of injustice. As an attorney and therefore an officer of the court, you would have no idea how many cases I have seen and dealt with like this.

Over $121,000 has been raised as a reward for Officer Wilson. Know what might change my mind about him at this point? If he would refuse the funds and offer it up towards building a community center where people of all color can come together as a real group of citizens, working towards change in Ferguson. I won't hold my breath though.

[This message edited by Jeaniegirl at 11:45 AM, August 21st (Thursday)]


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

JG, so if officer Wilson was attacked, what should he have done?


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Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

So, in this thread you have, if you will, a microcosm of the 'lenses' in America through which we view ourselves and our neighbors.

Was Michael Brown a 'gentle giant,' harmless, misunderstood typical young black man brutally murdered on the street by a racist cop?

Was Michael Brown a drugged-up young black thug who robbed a store, threatened the owner, tried to steal a cop's gun and then charged at him, provoking a justifiable response? Did drug use play a role here?

We have photos of him looking pretty cherubic and also some of him flashing Bloods signs and the finger.

No matter what lens you see through, there HAS to be an objective reality. People may often say "we want justice" but in fact what they really mean is "we want what WE consider to be just." We're not talking about 'social justice' here - once a crime has been committed it's criminal justice. 'Social justice,' by definition, will have to be worked out in a different venue, in our communities, not within our criminal court system.

True justice, in order to prevail, cannot wear those lenses. That's what voir dire in our jury system is all about - the facts and the law. Justice, in fact, is depicted historically not only without lenses, but without even the distraction of vision:

Now we're collectively not naive enough to believe that this always happens, especially considering our many charged issues such as race, economic status and gender discrimination. Our stereotypes. However, objective justice remains our ideal.

So do you really want justice? Or do you want your own version of justice? Are you superimposing your version of "social justice in our country" over the criminal justice for those involved in this case? Does that even make sense?

When the true facts come out, to the extent that they can be known, will you have to 'walk back' your own conclusions? Will you have the moral courage to do that no matter which 'side' you come down on? Can you distinguish the difference between your own story of 'white vs. black culture' from the issues in the specifics of this incident?

And finally, where do we lay blame? Even, WHY do we lay blame? Does someone need to take blame for this ... or are we ALL a little bit to blame? Is blame entirely divisible between Mr. Brown and Officer Wilson? Would society benefit from us all contemplating how we contribute to this being reality in America today?

Would things get better if we all took more personal responsibility instead of laying collective blame? What would that look like? How can a community take responsibility as well as individuals? Doesn't blame ... keep us from talking to each other? We can disagree ... but we still need to listen to each other.

Or will this divide us even further?

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 1:27 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

5454, from my prospective, Officer Wilson brought the situation on himself. He was not thinking. Perhaps he thought Michael Brown was just another black body -- a big, black body as he was a rather large young man ... so perhaps Officer Wilson thought he could use the usual ..."get out of the f*cking street!" command. Funny you asked this question because I just finished having a long conversation with an outstanding DA in my state, a former street police officer. He is 52 years old. He said the proper procedure for Wilson would have been to drive on down the street and call for back-up if he was intimidated by the size of Michael Brown and thought he was guilty of something. This highly respected DA also said it's time for more training of officers of all color so they can learn just shooting is NOT the answer. He says it's happening too often and the results end up being powder kegs like Ferguson.

I understand self-defense. It's very legitimate. I am also not soft on crime and know we have to have law enforcement. I believe in citizens having the right to protect themselves. Recently a man tried to take a woman's car away from her in a grocery store parking lot near me. She refused to be a victim and fought with him and two other women came to her aid. They really gave that guy his come-uppance and to top it off, one woman had a set of handcuffs and they made a 'citizen's arrest.' People have the right to feel safe. People also have the right to walk down the streets in their community without being told to 'go home' and called 'f-inging animals' by the police. After a while this wears on people and they fight back. It's human nature.

We shouldn't be fearful of calling the police when we need help, but it's coming to that.

[This message edited by Jeaniegirl at 1:03 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Jeaniegirl
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Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 1:08 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

TrulyReconciled, excellent post. However, you ask why someone has to be blamed. That is because a young life is snuffed out in an instant. Something went terribly wrong. Maybe 'blame' is not the right word but a 'reason' has to be sought in hopes it won't happen again.

I watched an interview with an elderly black man and he was very soft-spoken and was very sad about the events happening in his town. He said it's an unwritten rule that people of Ferguson just know they are not allowed to be out after dark in certain areas. He said yelling and cursing by the police is considered the norm.

Changes have to be made. The way they are doing it is not working. I can't imagine not being able to take a walk after dark in my area. Can you?


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Pentup
Member
Member # 20563
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

T/j: I have lived in the North and the South and have seen racism in both on both sides of the color divide. Bigotry of any kind bothers me, Bigotry against an area of the country irritates me just as much. It is stereotyping and I despise it as much as I do based on religion or color or any other criteria used to stereotype. If you don't like where you live, by all means move. But please, don't expect unicorns in any other place. People are people and for whatever reason (I don't want to debate why or how or really anything) people tend to find reasons to put themselves in one group and others in another. You can cross the lines and you can educate yourself about the differences and that is a good thing.

I grew up in an area with no diversity. Guess what, we still had "differences".

JMHO because when I see people having these discussions and crossing lines and then drawing another (ie Mason Dixon) and those stereotypes not being challenged, it makes me a little and a touch

Praying for peace in Ferguson and across America and the world.


Me- BS
Him- FWS (I hope- F)

Posts: 6677 | Registered: Aug 2008 | From: Not Oz
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

However, you ask why someone has to be blamed. That is because a young life is snuffed out in an instant. Something went terribly wrong. Maybe 'blame' is not the right word but a 'reason' has to be sought in hopes it won't happen again.

'Blame' requires no further action.

'Reasons' imply potential for change and the need to act. The 'reasons' for this will come out.

- drug use (?)
- aggression (?)
- poor decision-making (?)
- disrespect for others (?)
- entitlement (?)

Note that these issues could apply to either party.

So while we contemplate the issues surrounding this case, we continue with our lives, tolerating drug use, aggressive behavior, poor decision-making and in taking sides we express disrespect for others and our own entitlement (to be 'right' if nothing else).

Enlightenment is realizing that there really are no 'sides' here after all.

And this is the behavior that many adults are modeling for the youth of today. We should not be so surprised, then.

[This message edited by TrulyReconciled at 1:29 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

I would suggest going to the site where money is being raised for Officer Wilson and read the comments of support for him and then come back here and try to say this isn't a racial incident.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
ReasonableDoubt
New Member
Member # 44577
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

JG, so if officer Wilson was attacked, what should he have done?

Not the person you asked but aren't cops trained to attempt to diffuse a situation first before using lethal force? or do these things go from 0-100 with no composure even if the person the cop is trying to detain is unarmed?

Just last week in Carondelet, St. Louis a man suspected of robbery was hiding out in someone's basement and when police showed up he assaulted both officers...and despite breaking an officers hand he's still alive(side note: the suspect in this case is white) http://www.kmov.com/news/crime/Police-Suspect-hides-in-womans-basement-assaults-officers-271009211.html

Perhaps he thought Michael Brown was just another black body -- a big, black body as he was a rather large young man

Being black myself I honestly wouldn't doubt it at this point...


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5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 1:44 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

JG, thank you for that. Next question. If it is a training issue, where does the responsibility then lie? IDK what the SOP's are for the Ferguson PD. If he followed them, does that not somewhat absolve him?

One comment I will make though is

Perhaps he thought Michael Brown was just another black body

or perhaps he saw a suspected criminal. I don't have any evidence to support that he is or was racist. If it was racially motivated, I'm all for letting him hang out to dry. If he was just some poorly trained officer doing his job to the best of his ability? Then the persecution of this man is unjustified in my mind.


Remember Richard Jewell?


BH 51, WW 42
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“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
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Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

I remember Richard Jewel.

I remember a lot of incidents such as Jewel. That's because I've been on the front lines. Probably too long.

Training is necessary and I don't feel they are being trained correctly. It looks as if the unwritten code for new cops is: Shave head, practice using the F-word and work on making people experience fear.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Training is necessary and I don't feel they are being trained correctly. It looks as if the unwritten code for new cops is: Shave head, practice using the F-word and work on making people experience fear.

Sadly, I agree. While I feel that there are a preponderance of good officers out there, there is a whole new breed being trained.

making people experience fear

I don't think race really matters anymore.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
LydiaE
Member
Member # 42571
Default  Posted: 2:01 PM, August 21st (Thursday)


Protest can be justified, healthy, and productive.

However, a group that chooses to sleep all day and violently riot and loot at night is both a threat to and a burden on society.

Shame on those who encourage and support this type of behavior.


Posts: 103 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: SouthernUSA
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

RD, didn't he call MB over to the vehicle first? Wasn't that where the initial altercation took place? I don't think it went from 0-100. However, I do wish that less than lethal force had been used.

Jeaniegirl put it

just shooting is NOT the answer

and I agree. Maybe he could have called backup. Agree there also.

I just don't automatically go from 0-100 and assume racism.

Being black myself I honestly wouldn't doubt it at this point

Based on history, I don't blame you. I just hope and pray for better.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Young white men are definitely treated differently by law enforcement. Why? Because if white parents call and file a complaint about officer conduct, the complaint does NOT get tossed in the garage. Black citizens are told to go home and keep their kids off the street. The largest police force in my state has a policy about complaints against officers. IF the person lodging the complaint does not check the box agreeing to take a lie detector test (if requested) about the complaint, the complaint goes in the trash. And that IS the truth.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 3:10 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

I would suggest going to the site where money is being raised for Officer Wilson and read the comments of support for him and then come back here and try to say this isn't a racial incident.
I've seen some of the comments from his supporters. Disgusting. This is about race. Period.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

But the reality ...


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Let's do a snicker test. 67% of the population of a municipality is black (sorry, I'm from the '60s), but there are only 3 black cops. They have plenty of white cops.

If I ran the Ferguson PD, I'd have been out recruiting black officer years ago. I'd want black & white officers to work together; I'd want white people to work with black & white cps; and I'd want black people to work with black & white cops.

Does it really make sense that only 3 qualified blacks applied for work as police officers in Ferguson? Especially if that's true, it's tremendously fishy.
********************************************

Frankly, I strongly suspect police misconduct, but I have compassion for Officer Wilson (as well as the Brown family). I suspect he fell down a slippery slope, and if the sitch had been different, Michael Brown and he would both still be alive and uninjured.

But that's just tentative. I'll wait for a lot more facts before considering the case closed.


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DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10571 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Undefinabl3
Member
Member # 36883
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Not the person you asked but aren't cops trained to attempt to diffuse a situation first before using lethal force?

Unfortunately the rest of society does not have all of the evidence at all. So this question can be hard to answer.

Yes, police are trained in personal protection and there are levels of restraint that they have at their disposal, however, at any point in time (just like a non-uniformed regular every day person) they are well within their right to use deadly force if they feel that their life is being threatened.

We do know that Mr. Brown had just robbed a store and accosted either the clerk or patron of the store. So it wasn't like he was just walking down the street minding his own business when the officer encountered him.

We also know that they did fight and it is reported (not sure if confirmed or not) that Mr. Brown did try to get the officer's gun.

Now, if that were ME and i am not a cop, but if someone went for my gun - you bet your pretty panties that I will use deadly force after the fact. 1. if he's going for the gun, he will have the option of using it. 2. If he has that option, then you damn right i fear for my life.

We also know that he was shot from the front, and not the back - so it's obviously that he was still facing the officer.


Me: 31 MH
Him: 37 MH
New online find 6/19/14 - shit
Phone Find 11/21/14 - I can't even right now.

Posts: 1818 | Registered: Sep 2012
Red Sox Nation
Member
Member # 26358
Default  Posted: 3:27 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

I don't know what happened, but most of the comments I see in the forums I read have judged Officer Wilson guilty because of his race. There's no way in the world he could justify the shooting in their eyes.

The judges in this case seem every bit as bad as those reported on the Wilson support forum (I haven't seen them, but I don't doubt there are racists on both sides heavily invested in this case).

And all the power is on one side here - our attorney general seems to be amongst the judges. As do the popular "news" channels. If Wilson is innocent, the poor guy doesn't have a chance.

I get that history hasn't been kind. I get that there are bad cops out there. That still doesn't justify this call to lynch Wilson. If the witness accounts and the evidence support his story, he should be cleared. If they don't, he should face a trial.


When someone tells you who she is, listen; when someone shows you who she is, listen carefully.

Posts: 1911 | Registered: Nov 2009 | From: Midwest
lieshurt
Member
Member # 14003
Default  Posted: 3:31 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Red Sox Nation, you hit the nail on the head.


A relationship without trust is like a car without gas. You can stay in it all you want, but it won't go anywhere.

Posts: 13838 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Houston
5454real
Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

This is about race. Period

Why?

Does Officer Wilson have a history of racist remarks or actions?

I get that history hasn't been kind. I get that there are bad cops out there. That still doesn't justify this call to lynch Wilson. If the witness accounts and the evidence support his story, he should be cleared. If they don't, he should face a trial.

Agreed. Sadly, he will never be safe in that community again regardless of outcome.


BH 51, WW 42
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 20(Hers),DS 9 Ours, DGS 3, DGD 1 mo
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 3172 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
MissesJai
Member
Member # 24849
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Sigh. Ferguson is 67% black and the police force is 97% white. There are only 3 black officers on the force and only 1 black city council member.

I think it's time I bow out of this conversation.


FWW - 41
"Don't think first about the risks of speaking up. Think first about the risks of not speaking up." ~ Kerry Patterson

Posts: 6027 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: So Cal.....
sisoon
Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

if someone went for my gun ...

One of Malcolm Gladwell's books, not to mention people in other fora on this site, addressed this sort of thinking. In fact, people don't reliably predict how they'd react. In particular, I don't think it's easy for most of us to kill another human being. Nor is having a gun a guarantee that it will be used as intended.

Furthermore, training - such as one would expect for police - can teach people how to overcome their gut reactions and do something that is perhaps more effective, merciful, and/or just.

Swaggering is not a crime. We all know too many women find that strong threats aren't enough to get ex-Hs, etc. off the streets. Theft is no longer a capital crime.

Again, I continue to wait for more reliable facts. I don't know enough about what went on between Brown and Wilson.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10571 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
ReasonableDoubt
New Member
Member # 44577
Default  Posted: 4:45 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

We do know that Mr. Brown had just robbed a store and accosted either the clerk or patron of the store. So it wasn't like he was just walking down the street minding his own business when the officer encountered him.

That's just it. We don't know this. They released a video of someone who may or may not be Michael Brown. It's been almost a week and they still haven't clarified if it was him in the video or not.

But just as hypothetical let's say that was Brown...Darren Wilson already admitted he didn't know Michael Brown was a suspect at the time of the shooting. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/darren-wilson-identified-killed-18-year-old-michael-brown-article-1.1904539

We also know that they did fight and it is reported (not sure if confirmed or not) that Mr. Brown did try to get the officer's gun

This is in fact still unconfirmed as the only sources that are saying this were Mr. Wilson, and some other unidentified source who was not at the scene.

So yes depending on how you see it he was minding his own business walking down the street...


Posts: 3 | Registered: Aug 2014
TrulyReconciled
Member
Member # 3031
Default  Posted: 4:52 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Anyone who has been trained in self-defense will tell you that you have precious little time to make that decision if (and I do say if) someone is running at you quickly from a distance of 30-35 feet or so.

It's also very difficult to stop a large person especially if they are on drugs, in fact, tasers have been shown to be often ineffective on people who are really tweaked on Meth or PCP and you can simply forget pepper spray under these circumstances.


"In a time of deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act."

Posts: 21446 | Registered: Dec 2003 | From: Hell and back, way back :o)
caregiver9000
Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

All I can do is keep raising awesome humans who are going to go forth and carry on the lessons I am giving them, and so on, and so on. Situations like these make me feel powerless, until I realize there is a lot of power in raising these just and gentle human beings.

meta, thank you for voicing my own feelings on the situation so eloquently. The "facts" are not known, but my own feelings are present and I need to deal with them, since I cannot control the facts or the issues in a faraway state. Your statement makes me feel like I do have some control and power to make change.

TR, your post with Lady Justice being blind two pages back was brilliant. Thank you for continuing to post.

It has been helpful to me to read this thread. I can see the divide and the perspectives. It helps me to get it here rather than from the round table or "man/woman on the street" interviews on the cable news. To me, the SI crew are real people with established credibility, and I find it easier to consider the comments regardless of how they track with my own thinking. So thank you, especially to those who feel like they aren't being heard. I hear you. I am working to internalize and walk in the shoes. Your voices are important to me.


Me: 44, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
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Posts: 5907 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
lieshurt
Member
Member # 14003
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

But just as hypothetical let's say that was Brown...Darren Wilson already admitted he didn't know Michael Brown was a suspect at the time of the shooting.

If you go with this hypothetical, then you also have to acknowledge the fact that Brown didn't know that Wilson didn't know. If he did just rob that store, then he would have been on the defensive from the get go and that would explain the aggressive stance he took with Wilson...again, hypothetically.

Personally, I'm still waiting for all of the facts to come out.

[This message edited by lieshurt at 5:42 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


A relationship without trust is like a car without gas. You can stay in it all you want, but it won't go anywhere.

Posts: 13838 | Registered: Mar 2007 | From: Houston
Grace and Flowers
Member
Member # 34431
Default  Posted: 6:32 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Wait....Jeanie says the officer told Brown to "get out of the effin' street"? Were you being literal there? If so, how on earth would any of us know for sure at this point what exact conversation transpired between them? If not, how is putting inflammatory words into one of the parties mouth helping the situation? I'm with sisoon...we just don't know enough yet. What I see is people jumping to conclusions based on the colors if the individuals. Statistically, because of the makeup of the police department, and the city they serve, citizens there will most likely be dealing with white cops. Does that make those cops racist??? NO. There was an article here locally today that said that Ferguson is a " ticketing" town....they make a ton of revenue from traffic tickets, and stuff like jaywalking, obstructing the road, etc. Annoying and stupid. Wrong. Maybe that is what Wilson was doing....looking to write a piss-ant citation. And it went horribly wrong. I just disagree that it was all racially motivated. I agree that the racial makeup of the department is unfortunate. But that does not mean that those officers took the job because they wanted to kill black people!!

And I still maintain that we, the general public, do NOT have all the facts yet. All of this yelling and shouting of rumors and speculation are just fueling the anger. I'm not saying there should NOT be anger....let's just wait and see what the investigation finds. I'm all for the officer being prosecuted if he used undue force. And if the officer WAS injured by Brown, and in those split seconds was afraid for his own life and used lethal force? It's so easy for people to condemn BOTH men. Why can we not wait for the investigation to be done? Why do we have to assume the results of that investigation will be tainted, no matter the outcome?

It is an utter tragedy when a person is killed. I just think it's outrageous for the public to make it a racial issue so quickly. Yes, they are different colors. But that just does not mean that the incident happened because they are different colors.


I'm Happy, not Sad!

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: US
Dark Inertia
Member
Member # 30727
Default  Posted: 7:20 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

That's just it. We don't know this. They released a video of someone who may or may not be Michael Brown. It's been almost a week and they still haven't clarified if it was him in the video or not.

I thought it was confirmed 5 days ago that it was MB in the convenience store. It was confirmed by Dorian Johnson as well as his attorney.

[This message edited by Dark Inertia at 7:22 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


"If I listened earlier, I wouldn't be here. But that's just the trouble with me. I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."

Posts: 1329 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: The Ohio
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 7:56 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Witnesses have said Officer Wilson yelled for both of the boys to get out of the f*cking street. If you have been watching live TV coverage of the protest, you can see the police have no problem yelling out the F-word at every opportunity.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Jeaniegirl
Member
Member # 6370
Default  Posted: 7:59 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Why do we have to assume the results of that investigation will be tainted, no matter the outcome?

________________________________________________

Look at the background of the prosecutor. His entire family work for the police department. Also, he's started a media fight with the governor. I have problems with arrogant prosecutors.


"Because I deserve better"

Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
Grace and Flowers
Member
Member # 34431
Default  Posted: 9:05 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Well, if we want to talk about what is going on during "live media coverage", how about an eyewitness. I've been to Ferguson during two of these long nights. Yes, it's true, I've heard cops swear. However, it's been when a bottle of urine, or some other unknown object has been thrown at them. I've heard a TON more inflammatory rhetoric from the supposed protestors. How is THAT not being heard on tv? Oh wait, it is. Local news did extensive coverage of a New Black Panther leader that spent hours with a bullhorn encouraging the crowd to go TOWARDS the police, while other clergy begged a peaceful protest. The other clergy people were so frustrated at this man's attempt to incite yet more violence.

As for the prosecutor...I guarantee that NO ONE will satisfy EVERYONE. Sadly, it appears there can be no trust. He might be abrasive...doesn't mean he won't do his job correctly. Don't know why we can't wait and see what happens....and THEN respond.

Finally....there are MANY conflicting reports as to what happened/was said that day. Many people are staunchly believing the "side" they want to believe. And hearing only what they want to hear. So the mistrust of each other, the hatred, moves right along. Sad.

Edited to fix typos.

[This message edited by Grace and Flowers at 9:06 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


I'm Happy, not Sad!

Posts: 1199 | Registered: Jan 2012 | From: US
Dark Inertia
Member
Member # 30727
Default  Posted: 9:19 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

On my phone, but Grace, your last paragraph,PERFECTLY SAID!!


"If I listened earlier, I wouldn't be here. But that's just the trouble with me. I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."

Posts: 1329 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: The Ohio
determinata
Member
Member # 42124
Default  Posted: 9:40 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

For the record, here are the comments on the officer's GoFundMe page that have since been taken down:


M 2007. DDay 2008
~10+ CL Prostitutes in 8 months
Divorcing SAWH "ActionsOverWords"
Me: Early 30s BW (also an adult OC) w Baby DS

6 years of TT, hidden STD & false R
Separated 5 mos+; he will not commit
Someday I will be okay


Posts: 288 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York City
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 10:20 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

This flag is for everyone on this thread.

Please, please...PLEASE take a step back and realize just how much your posts are effecting all our members and regular readers.

Some of you have alienated half of your readers/friends just from making such comments that only state one side of things with no room for other opinions. Nothing on this thread is fact...it's based on whatever news outlet you listen to and/or read.

Michael Brown is not the son of any member here (to the best of my knowledge)so it's probably best to not take this so personal. A young man is dead. A police officer is under investigation. An entire city is at unrest. Let us all follow with interest and educated statements...I have confidence that the truth will come out in due time.

It's threads like this that bring attention to us Staff members whether it belongs here or not. Sure hot topics and current events are wonderful to discuss, but when they degenerate into creating camps and others dismissing opinions...what good is it doing you and this community?


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198829 | Registered: May 2002
h0peless
Member
Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 11:01 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

I think the thread and the emotion in it is about something much deeper and more pervasive than an Isolated incident in Ferguson, MO. I think that just ripped the band-aid off.

Posts: 1810 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Baja Arizona
determinata
Member
Member # 42124
Default  Posted: 11:17 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

Some of you have alienated half of your readers/friends just from making such comments that only state one side of things with no room for other opinions. Nothing on this thread is fact...it's based on whatever news outlet you listen to and/or read.

This, x1000.


Michael Brown is not the son of any member here (to the best of my knowledge)

But hold on--is Officer Darren Wilson the son of a forum member? Because I am not sure why you are only calling out those who sympathize with Brown.

so it's probably best to not take this so personal.

That's a leap, IMO. Some of us have personally been subject to police discourtesy, disrespect and even violence. And in the parlance of SI, the entire Michael Brown event is intensely 'triggering'. I don't think it does justice to experiences of people to say that we shouldn't take it personally.


A young man is dead. A police officer is under investigation. An entire city is at unrest. Let us all follow with interest and educated statements...I have confidence that the truth will come out in due time.

But, gently, even your confidence that the truth will come out is clear evidence of a bias. So many people (mostly black) are upset because they do not believe that the truth will come out in due time; they do not believe there will be justice in this shooting of an unarmed black man or the next one or the next one or the next one.

It's threads like this that bring attention to us Staff members whether it belongs here or not. Sure hot topics and current events are wonderful to discuss, but when they degenerate into creating camps and others dismissing opinions...what good is it doing you and this community?

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't think threads like this belong on SI. I come here to heal from the disintegration of my marriage and to offer a modicum of support to other people, many of whom I suspect neither look nor think like me, but are hurting. Like a lot of people, I suspect, I tried to read this thread with dispassion but pretty much have ended up making an enemies list of people who I'm not going to debate about this but also will never respond to on SI again. Maybe I'm the only person who felt that alienated, but I doubt it and I think the best overall thing for the infidelity-affected community is to not engage in powder keg conversations about things like race. We clearly have divergent views and some of us, frankly, are adversaries. But that's not why we're on this site.

[This message edited by determinata at 11:20 PM, August 21st (Thursday)]


M 2007. DDay 2008
~10+ CL Prostitutes in 8 months
Divorcing SAWH "ActionsOverWords"
Me: Early 30s BW (also an adult OC) w Baby DS

6 years of TT, hidden STD & false R
Separated 5 mos+; he will not commit
Someday I will be okay


Posts: 288 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York City
fraeuken
Member
Member # 30742
Default  Posted: 11:45 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

but pretty much have ended up making an enemies list of people who I'm not going to debate about this but also will never respond to on SI again.

This is such a low point, I can't even believe this discussion has sunk to this low in response to DS' attempt to calm things down. Completely uncalled for.

To think that it is not possible to have a discussion about events, underlying issues, untruths and labeling people without subsequently having 'enemy lists' assembled, is just beyond comprehension for me. That is exactly the kind of prejudiced, ignorant thinking that causes these horrible events to occur in the first place.


Temporarily independent with the whole world at my feet.

Posts: 1260 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: California
determinata
Member
Member # 42124
Default  Posted: 11:57 PM, August 21st (Thursday)

This is such a low point, I can't even believe this discussion has sunk to this low in response to DS' attempt to calm things down. Completely uncalled for.

To think that it is not possible to have a discussion about events, underlying issues, untruths and labeling people without subsequently having 'enemy lists' assembled, is just beyond comprehension for me. That is exactly the kind of prejudiced, ignorant thinking that causes these horrible events to occur in the first place.

Uh huh.

DS wanted to know if this was helping the community or hurting and I that was my honest truth. But you are somehow extrapolating that honesty is what got someone shot? Or made people mad? Or what? The "prejudice and ignorance" is in all of the replies that suppose that somehow the poster has inside information into what happened when Michael Brown got shot and so you can kindly keep your outrage and on your side of what is clearly an ideological fence.

I'm done with this thread.

/out

[This message edited by determinata at 12:43 AM, August 22nd (Friday)]


M 2007. DDay 2008
~10+ CL Prostitutes in 8 months
Divorcing SAWH "ActionsOverWords"
Me: Early 30s BW (also an adult OC) w Baby DS

6 years of TT, hidden STD & false R
Separated 5 mos+; he will not commit
Someday I will be okay


Posts: 288 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: New York City
FinallyHappy
Member
Member # 308
Default  Posted: 4:26 AM, August 22nd (Friday)

May I request that the thread be closed?

In the old days, someone would second and third that request, and the thread would be closed.

But, gently, even your confidence that the truth will come out is clear evidence of a bias.

No. It isn't.

DS is quite possibly the last person who would be 'biased'.


"Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none."

~Ben~

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Jul 2002 | From: WI
FinallyHappy
Member
Member # 308
Default  Posted: 4:50 AM, August 22nd (Friday)

((((tushnurse))))

I hope you folks are doing okay.


"Be civil to all; sociable to many; familiar with few; friend to one; enemy to none."

~Ben~

Posts: 7338 | Registered: Jul 2002 | From: WI
Deeply Scared
Administrator
Member # 2
Default  Posted: 6:17 AM, August 22nd (Friday)

HI FH!!!!!!!!


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 198829 | Registered: May 2002
authenticnow
Moderator
Member # 16024
Red  Posted: 6:30 AM, August 22nd (Friday)

While we realize this is a current event, the last few pages have turned into hurtful and unnecessary comments. In the best interest of the SI community as a whole, this topic is closed.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 38687 | Registered: Sep 2007
Topic Posts: 140