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RomanticInnocenc posted 8/10/2017 20:58 PM

Hey Pineapple,

You've gotten some great advice and I hope you're considering it.

You said to reality check you and I want you to consider that right now you are using sex with your wife like a drug ro take the edge off. You're an addict and she is your dealer. The problem with that is, that whilst it would take the edge of for a while with the euphoria of the after sex glow, I wonder if your brain is kicking in at night trying to sort this crap out because you aren't giving it room to during the day.

I'd also ask you to consider the riming of this sex. Is it initiated during, after, in anticipation of another talk. Is your ww using it to avoid the hard discussions?

I also wonder how you are going to feel about all this sex if the truth turns out to be that it was PA. It's something to think about.

This stuff is hard and we all make mistakes during the aftermath of dday. But if you are allowing yourself to get caught up in the hoovering of this sex fest then I am worried you will cause yourself a lot of damage whether you r or not.

Give yourself a 2 day breather and just assess where you really are. And watch your wifes actions without the sex to fall back on.

Pineapple posted 8/10/2017 21:18 PM

There are no more revelations of any significance, supposedly. Nothing that would be considered in the realm of a PA. Moving forward with the poly.

MickeyBill2016 posted 8/11/2017 00:20 AM

but W insisted she'd worn it for me previously. Said it came from the back of her drawer. I guess I should find that drawer and see what else is in there. Forgot about it after it happened since, well, the sex was good.

If you don't remember maybe she got confused because she wore it for the OM...

ramius posted 8/11/2017 03:53 AM

God, my youngest even approached me the other night and started to tell me that men and women can have platonic relationships. Thanks for that one, W.

Just to be clear. Your cheating wife is enlisting your youngest child to lobby on behalf of her story? She is manipulating you via your children?

If that is the case......holy crap. That is a MAJOR red flag. A normal parent tries to keep martial drama from the children. Why stress them out? But a cluster fuck of a parent uses her children as a tool, a means to an end. She is modeling terrible behaviours for her children. It speaks volumes to her lack of maturity and lack of character. She has a broken moral compass.

Wether she passes the poly or not, think hard, about who and what she is.

Bigger posted 8/11/2017 05:57 AM

Pine,
Could you elaborate?
You say there are no more revelations of significance.
1) When did this become apparent? Did you have a talk to her in the framework I suggested or was this just yet one more conversation of the kind you two have been having over the last weeks?
2) What is “significance”? Did you define physical activity? Look – we have had numerous WS that didn’t consider a hand-job, oral or phone-sex as “sex”. I even remember at least two cases where the WS insisted there was no sex because the male didn’t ejaculate in the woman. You really need a clear definition of “significant” …


Back in the days I joined the police. At the academy, we had an instructor in investigative techniques and procedures that would often say “when you hear the beating of hooves you think horses, not zebras”. He used that saying to remind us that we could expect a foregone conclusion, but had to be open for something else. For example; if I was asked to investigate vandalism I would right away start by talking to the group of young teenage men with spray-can marks on their hands, but I would be a fool to ignore the middle-aged property owner filling out the insurance claims...

Most (if not all) of us suspect there is more to your wife’s story than no-sex. I gave it a 20% chance of being true (and that was me being optimistic). But there is still that small chance it is true… We all have to be open for that. Maybe – just maybe – you won the lottery.

You must grasp and convey to your wife the seriousness of the poly.

Imagine this scenario: Imagine she fails the question “did you have sex with OM”. The examiner gives a 99% result.
OK – If she did have sex with the OM then why should she willingly take the poly knowing that question would pop up? Could be because she didn’t consider him fondling her breasts as sex, or her giving him a BJ, or him fingering her (sorry for being so explicit. I try not to be this graphic unless I think it serves a purpose or reason. I also want to apologize for inserting hypothetical sexual situations in the following text. It serves a purpose but does not necessarily reflect what your wife might have done). A good examiner will interview your WW before the poly and will define all the terms being used. The examiner will have stated “by sex I am referring to oral stimulation, fondling, sexual gratification [and so on]…”. MAYBE your WW all of a sudden realizes that when she jerked him off in the supplies room WAS sex.

So imagine being in the car after she fails the poly…
She’s going to start by focusing on the 99% accuracy. She can probably find surveys that show the accuracy as low as 80%. Remember you are still in a marriage that we give at best a 20% chance of knowing the truth…
Then she’s going to focus on the definitions not having been clear. She thought you were only referring to “proper” sex in a bed with penetration. So, she grudgingly admits to a BJ (but still hides the intercourse-session in the meeting-room after work).

You – desperately holding on to the marriage – agree to a new confession and a new poly where the definition of sex is “Did you give OM a BJ?” The question must be narrowed down because we already know she will fail the “Did you have sex with the OM” question. Only – the latter question let’s her get away with having had OM over in your house, in your bed, in your sheets… You are left with a bit more info, but still not the truth.

This is why IMHO the poly needs to be the single most important reason you decide what fork to take – R or D. It’s a one-off deal. It defines where you place your effort. IF she lies – irrespective of passing or failing the poly – you will NEVER reach R. N E V E R.

Another think to consider: IF she passes then the poly needs to convince YOU that you have enough truth to move on. You have to work on your doubts about the extent of the sex. That’s tough… but IF she’s telling the truth and IF there was no sex… YOU need to work on that aspect in your mind-movies and all that.

Finally, two suggestions:
I am going to support the idea to read Not Just Friends. It’s the go-to-book in EA’s. Both of you read it and both of you do the exercises.

The lingerie… IMHO it’s a distraction. If the lingerie is a trigger, then there is a simple solution: You tell your wife that her lingerie is a major trigger and therefore is has a reverse effect on you. You two go take all the content of her sexy-lingerie drawer and burn it. She then goes and buys one or two pieces and you work on it from there.

Pine – I want to point out one major thing:
You are there. She is there. It’s clear you both want the marriage. Either of you could leave right now. Either could initiate divorce. But neither has. This is such a clear statement that neither WANTS to end the marriage.

But… the affair killed whatever you had. It’s like your dream-house caught fire. Only a real fool would sit in the burnt living-room, on the remains of the favorite couch watching the non-functional, semi-burnt best-ever big-screen TV.
After a house-fire you need to evaluate the damage and then work on repairs. How much you loved the house and how much you want to remain there is totally irrelevant. What matters is the extent of the damage and the work required to repair. If the foundations are destroyed… then maybe that house can’t be rebuilt.

I THINK (and this is totally MY evaluation) your house might be damaged but fixable. But while your wife insists the floor-beams are OK and you aren’t totally convinced… To fix you need to really know the extent of the damage. Those hidden, damaged floor-beams can be just as dangerous for her as they are for you.

goalong posted 8/11/2017 08:22 AM

a

sked her in IC if the affair was physical, to which she replied no. Neither of those things means jack from my vantage point. God, my youngest even approached me the other night and started to tell me that men and women can have platonic relationships. Thanks for that one, W.

Now you are almost in to R, take courage and have a decent talk with posom for a closure. after all he was brave enough to introduce himself to you

Pineapple posted 8/11/2017 11:18 AM

You said to reality check you and I want you to consider that right now you are using sex with your wife like a drug ro take the edge off.

Yes, yes I am. Thoughts, it's better than alcohol. I've done some drinking in the aftermath of D-day, and I can safely say that sex is a better option. I get that there's a downside. 2 days w/o feels like a long time to me right now.

Forged1 posted 8/11/2017 11:28 AM

At the academy, we had an instructor in investigative techniques and procedures that would often say “when you hear the beating of hooves you think horses, not zebras”. He used that saying to remind us that we could expect a foregone conclusion, but had to be open for something else. For example; if I was asked to investigate vandalism I would right away start by talking to the group of young teenage men with spray-can marks on their hands, but I would be a fool to ignore the middle-aged property owner filling out the insurance claims...

This.

She is modeling terrible behaviours for her children. It speaks volumes to her lack of maturity and lack of character. She has a broken moral compass.

And also this.

Sharkman posted 8/11/2017 12:24 PM

I get that sex makes you feel better but for your longer-term health you need to be focused on disengaging.

Your emotions need to be as far behind your logic as possible. You have some important decisions coming up.

Pineapple posted 8/11/2017 14:22 PM

@Bigger - Yesterday I followed the framework which you presented to see if W would provide any additional detail/revelations re the extent of relations w/ OM. Was talking with her on the phone and decided it was as good a time as any to get into it. Pulled up your post, walked through your steps and gave her to the end of the day to come clean with anything, emphasizing that there would be no R if she failed the poly and that I would commit to three months of R regardless of what she disclosed as long as she passes the poly. She told me straight up that there was nothing more that she could think of that I would consider being a PA. I covered pretty much any physical contact I could think of including down to things like a hug from behind or hand holding.

We sat down last night and she went through her previous 11-page tell all confession. Three items came up including OM took her hand to help her up a steep hill when they were walking back to his car after the concert a couple months ago, another happy hour location that she recalled, and her estimate of the number of one on one happy hours with OM about doubled (I think).

So there is where things stand as far as what I have been told.

As I look back in time, I would guess this all began a good 3-4 years back. I can recall taking the family to a hockey game where I had to chastise her because she was ignoring all of us and spending the time wrapped up in non-stop texting session with OM that night. Her employer lets everyone out early a couple hours one day a week in the summer for a month so they can have more family time. She always told me that she had too much work to do and couldn't leave, but I guess those days the happy hours just kicked off early so I spent those nights alone with the kids.

Anyway, I will select a poly examiner, set up the questions, and we'll see how things go.

Pineapple posted 8/11/2017 14:46 PM

Oh yeah, and there were some hugs, boobs pressed into him, and OM may have kissed her cheek (European style, though we're not in Europe and he ain't European) during one or two of those hugs.

beenthereinco posted 8/11/2017 15:31 PM

3 to 4 years is a slow burn on an EA to get to a PA. I am really not believing that this has not been a physical affair for quite some time but I want to call attention to this statement:

God, my youngest even approached me the other night and started to tell me that men and women can have platonic relationships. Thanks for that one, W.

This really stuck out to me as a problem. What happened to the woman that was so sorry for what she had done, even though it wasn't really an A according to her, that you could hit her as punishment? It seems like now that she has maybe convinced you that there was no physical affair she is going to start working on convincing you that she actually did nothing wrong at all. I don't know how you held it together after that from your little girl. I would have kicked your WW out the door for that one.

Sharkman posted 8/11/2017 15:38 PM

Pineapple,

What we need you to remember is the main issue with people trying to uncover a physical affair is that they lose sight that an affair is an affair is an affair.

She spent all that time with him and engrossed in him OVER you. She very clearly made her choice.

Either way, you have no option but to go through with the poly.

CopiousTears posted 8/11/2017 15:54 PM

Get that poly scheduled ASAP. I never did a poly on my WXHx2, but I think you should post your formulated questions here for feedback. Don't tell her.

IMO, she's effectively thrown a spanner in the works; giving you just enough to create plausible deniability. European kisses my ass. Pressed her boobs up against him in a hug...umm hmm, bet it wasn't a one-armed church hug. Held her hand for her to get sure footing. Yep, that's all physical contact alright and whew, she played it just right with what may be enough to throw off a poly. So forumlate your questions as best you can.

Just by following Bigger's excellent advice, you got scope creep (one on one happy hours doubled). I wouldn't ask her shit else. Just give her the date and time of the poly and see what happens.

And in case you don't know; I'm really hoping for a favorable outcome for you.

Pineapple posted 8/11/2017 15:56 PM

I just had a pretty brief but amazing conversation with my W. It seemed pretty unremarkable until we wrapped up with her saying that nobody she works with would suspect them of having an A, that I've known her for 23 years and the only thing she's lied to me about was some time spent with this platonic friend who just happens to be a man, and that she wishes I could have been there to see everything (which isn't anything that would bother me basically) so that I could just get over it all already.

I'm sitting here at my desk wondering if I just slipped into yet another parallel universe. I think that those of you suggesting I hold off on the hoover happy time are probably on to something. Could I have misunderstood her just now? I can't imagine how.

beenthereinco posted 8/11/2017 16:07 PM

Nope. You didn't misunderstand. She thinks she's got you off of the physical affair and now she's trying to walk back that she ever did anything wrong at all. Just what I said she was doing with the comment to your daughter.

This comment

they lose sight that an affair is an affair is an affair.

is so true. I think she was having a PA but even if she was having an EA she was having an affair. It was wrong. She was lying to you. She knew you wanted her to stop. She knew you did not want her having this relationship. She continued and lied. She went on dates (Let's be clear here as well - one on one happy hours are dates. This is another little euphemism that she has let slip into your vocabulary. You need to stop calling it anything other than a date.) She went to lunch with him every day, again a date. It was affecting your lives. She was giving him time when she should have been with your family. She was spending time alone (Not really as you know that time was on the phone with him.) She was disparaging you to him. She was completely and totally disrespectful of you and your marriage. This was not a platonic friendship. Ask her what you were supposed to hit her for back when this was all revealed. Ironically that reaction may have been the most honest from her in this whole thing because she didn't have time to work up her story.

Right now she thinks she has you beat and she's trying to double down. Pretty soon she'll start saying she doesn't see why she can't talk to her "friend" again.

twisted posted 8/11/2017 16:20 PM

with her saying that nobody she works with would suspect them of having an A,

I remember my WW telling years and years ago if she was having an affair I'd never know about it.
She had already had a couple of ONS by then and she was right for a long time. Then she slipped up and I found her whole her whole confession.
She was a good liar, or I was just too trusting and not looking.

Sharkman posted 8/11/2017 16:39 PM

Question: how many friends do you have where you shoot them pics from a dressing room asking them how your cock looks?

Pineapple posted 8/11/2017 17:35 PM

What her latest comments make me realize is that many of the things which she has been saying that are the right thing to say at this point are merely regurgitation of concepts that she's been reading in books and websites on how to treat her BS after her affair. The concepts have entered her outer consciousness, but the process of absorbing them into her value system is probably going to take a much longer time.

TimelessLoss posted 8/11/2017 18:41 PM

but the process of absorbing them into her value system is probably going to take a much longer time.
Pine, I have to say man, that I think this is a gross underestimation of the problem. Because she believes she did nothing wrong.

In fact:

her saying that nobody she works with would suspect them of having an A
She's bragging. Be assured, people at work know what they were doing. I know the intent of her statement to you is that no one suspects an affair because there wasn't one. She knows there was one and she believes she and OM are smarter than everyone at work.
that I've known her for 23 years and the only thing she's lied to me about was some time spent with this platonic friend who just happens to be a man
You know her best. We only know her by what you post. My take, based on your posts about her: inside her statements there is always a little tiny kernel of truth. I decode this to mean that she has only had to lie to you once...because you caught her. If ya don't catch her she don't hafta lie. This is her value system. And hey, just by chance it was a man, coulda been a woman, but doesn't matter, it was just platonic. What a bunch of happy horseshit. And she doubles down on this "platonic friend" bvllshit by feeding that line to your child.
and that she wishes I could have been there to see everything (which isn't anything that would bother me basically) so that I could just get over it all already.
This is just fvcking disgusting. And I'm only referring to what she has admitted to you.
Pine, I believe that she is a successful, astute, practiced liar. And she believes that about herself. That it is a "go to" attribute that she has available in her tool box when needed. Part of her value system. She believes she can game the poly because of her innate ability to lie. I expect she has read the crap on the internet about how to trick a poly.

I'm saying that even if she passes a poly you do not have a remorseful spouse. You don't even have a regretful spouse. She did not have an affair. She has done nothing wrong.

If she hasn't read, studied and reflected on "Not Just Friends" you should. So you have more bullets in your conversational bandolier to try and get through to her how what she has done is a betrayal . And that she has hurt you by her actions.

Read "How to Heal Your Spouse Heal" for the same reasons. So you can understand what you should be getting from her. Assuming she gets her head out of her a$$.

I believe her self image is that she is a hot chick who can get any man she wants. Manipulate with her body, tease at arm's length. Explain it all away.

And now schooling her daughter that "men and women can have platonic friendships". Quite the role model.

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