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Sharkman posted 7/21/2017 09:07 AM

1. Exposure to all
2. Go through with the poly. Poly tests can suck, parking lot confessions do not.

Jduff posted 7/21/2017 09:16 AM

Perhaps one of the poly questions should ask if she ever cheated on her first husband. I bet she won't expect that one and be able to prepare a lie...er, I mean an answer for it ahead of time.

Regardless, I think all her talk about beating it and getting false positives that chances are very high with your WW that she will deliver you a parking lot confession in the car right before the poly. Be prepared for that and have a hidden VAR in the car because you may not remember all of the details later.

Stevesn makes a great point about refraining from talking about D. That is your nuclear option. Don't use it to pry the truth from her Every time you bring it up, then back off of it you dilute it's power of declaration.

You have to find a way to communicate to her that her constant denial isn't what's going to save the marriage as she perceives the situation. It is already going down the toilet and that it is the truth that will give it the best CHANCE of survival. Hopefully, Joseph's letter will get through to her. It couldn't hurt to also have her read the book "Not Just Friends" as well.

PlanC posted 7/21/2017 10:25 AM

Pineapple:

You write that the only way you can climax is to envision your wife cheating.

I experienced that, too, for awhile. It eventually goes away.

Based on my own experience the reason this happens is because your subconscious is trying to find a way to process the betrayal. By converting the pain response to a cuckold fantasy your subconscious is allowing itself to feel like you are in control of the situation and feel pleasure not pain.

In my case this--and the "mind movies"--largely faded around the 1.5 year mark. Just don't let it evolve into an actual fetish and it will fade as you heal.

TimelessLoss posted 7/21/2017 22:33 PM

She must have told me a thousand times nothing physical happened between them.
Depends on how she defines "physical" doesn't it? She won't even admit that it was an EA.
She also told me she's done a lot of reading about them.
Very telling, especially in light of this:
Then last night when she mentioned the poly again she slipped in a comment that she doesn't know how to beat a poly.
But reading a lot about polys.
she doesn't know how to beat a poly.
Think how fvcked up her logic is. She's concerned about false positives. But not false negatives? She sure as shit is reading up on how to beat a poly.

Tell her you trust the poly. That you don't trust her because of all of her proven lies. So the poly is more reliable that she is. Hammer this home a few times; you need to raise her level of anxiety about the poly. Every time she brings it up you need to counter her with something.

She has been way too self assured and in control throughout. She believes she can "manage" this situation...and you.

Pineapple posted 7/22/2017 08:51 AM

Thanks again to all of you who have so generously and openly shared experience wisdom and empathy. My phone browser has started hanging half the time when I go to post so hopefully it will hang in with me for a few minutes this morning.

Had a good talk last night with W. I am no closer to any more info about the details or possibility of a PA. W is steadfast that there was no PA. I paraphrased Josephs letter that one of you shared the link to it. I used it to help illustrate to her how important a path forward is not dependent on what has happened but on complete honesty about it, because without that honesty there can be no foundation for rebuilding trust.

I'm going to split this post up so I don't keep losing the whole thing if the browser crashes...

Pineapple posted 7/22/2017 09:11 AM

While I think she understands my position she told me her story is never going to change because nothing physical happened. She is resolute.

My hopes of obtaining any sort of parking lot confession are slim at best. I will see what I can do to develop additional information via some other means, perhaps give me some confidence in her narrative or discredit it entirely. No change to the plan, poly, OBS, shining light on situation.

She has said many right things. I truly believe there is some deep soul searching going on. But I have a couple real concerns. One, she keeps returning to her unhappiness with the marriage as being a contribting cause of her betrayal. The other is that she is holding back. If indeed the no PA narrative is somehow true, she is so begrudging in admitting the significance and depth of an EA that it pretty much renders her concession as insincere.

More in a moment...

Pineapple posted 7/22/2017 09:28 AM

My last observation for the morning concerns OM. W has maintaned all along that she does not find OM attractive. However a couple days ago when she and I were talking I said some flattering things about his personality. W said in response that quite a few women in the office were attracted to OM. These two statements stand in opposition to each other. I didn't comment when she said what she said, just made a mental note.

I see glimmers of hope amidst circling storm clouds. Kind of like watching a beautiful sunrise over the mountains of Mordor.

Marriagesucks posted 7/22/2017 10:08 AM

W has maintaned all along that she does not find OM attractive. However a couple days ago when she and I were talking I said some flattering things about his personality. W said in response that quite a few women in the office were attracted to OM.
Are you sure your WW may have had a Freudian slip of the tongue there? Maybe the person you think of as the OM is a red herring for the REAL OM? That or she finds OM VERY attractive.

[This message edited by Marriagesucks at 10:14 AM, July 22nd (Saturday)]

TimelessLoss posted 7/22/2017 10:27 AM

vows to drop all contact with OM
Has she done this in a verifiable way?
she is so begrudging in admitting the significance and depth of an EA
and
she keeps returning to her unhappiness with the marriage as being a contribting cause of her betrayal
WW:"Pine, nothing really happened, and for whatever did happen it was because I am unhappy in my marriage".
I see glimmers of hope
Pine, you're the boots on the ground. But I don't see anything positive in her words or actions that overcome the level of lies and deceit. The lies and deceit that she has admitted. Hope is actually a wish, isn't it? Hope is a drug, Hopium, that some use to sedate themselves.

So you have your plan that you are waiting to pull the trigger on. BTW, what set of circumstances are you waiting for to execute the plan?

While you're waiting on that, try this with your wife. Set a boundary. "WW, I need you to contribute to building trust. Since your contact with OM was at happy hour, you need to stop going to all happy hours. It doesn't matter even if he isn't there. I won't know that. I can't verify that." Her response will be telling.

Pineapple posted 7/22/2017 10:31 AM

A couple more last items for the morning and then I have to get everyone up and moving.

Re two phones for her work, W has a legit reason for having both. Phone #2 may not hold much but could come into play it indeed NC is to be broken. Will see what I can do to get access. Might just have to be very patient on that.

Another thing, W can see that my mood changes when I look at my phone and has suggested that I delete the pics of the texts I found initially. I think this is maybe half in hopes of keeping me from being upset and no doubt a desire to rug sweep. I will save those off since she now knows how to access my phone. Told me last night she saw me entering my pass code. That's about to become a finger print. She also senses I am looking at something online, asked me what I was doing when visiting this forum last night and wanted to see my phone. Told her I was just reading information but closed my browser. Everything is incognito so no history but her attitude was a bit funny. Guess I am not supposed to be allowed any secrets of my own.

I had one other observation but it's slipped my mind. Thumb can't keep up with my thoughts. Good day all, will check in tonight.

Jduff posted 7/22/2017 10:32 AM

However a couple days ago when she and I were talking I said some flattering things about his personality. W said in response that quite a few women in the office were attracted to OM. 

I've read some stories here where the WW got the biggest ego boosts in situations (work or social setting) where other women are competing for the OM's attention and the OM would focus more on that WW, thus validating her power of attraction to her own self and to the other women. My own XW did that with the other women in her social circle as they competed for her OM's attention. It was the most ridiculous display of immaturity, like they all regressed to being 13yr olds.

Your WW wanted the OM's attention. She likely played the game with the women at work, was getting ahead of the other ladies and basked in the power she had to divert most of his attention away from the other women. She keeps associating her actions to issues in the marriage because she just doesn't want to admit to you that she cheated because she wanted to. Simply her selfishness and sense of entitlement to fantasy.

Pineapple posted 7/22/2017 10:37 AM

Yeah there are other things that I noticed previously. One late night I tried texting and calling when she had texted supposedly from happy hour. She didn't respond for quite a long time until she was heading home. Had some excuse but was obviously preoccupied with something. I'd forgotten about that night. In retrospect...

Pineapple posted 7/22/2017 10:45 AM

Immaturity, selfishness - she acknowledges both. She is a few years older than OM so I could see how his attention would boost the ego.

W has been so thrilled to hear from me again that I find her beautiful and sexy. She always asks me to repeat it when I say it. She said it had been so long since she had heard those words from me.

Michigan posted 7/22/2017 11:02 AM

Yeah there are other things that I noticed previously. One late night I tried texting and calling when she had texted supposedly from happy hour. She didn't respond for quite a long time until she was heading home. Had some excuse but was obviously preoccupied with something. I'd forgotten about that night. In retrospect.

Pineapple


It’s quite common for things you never thought about to become suspicious when viewed in a new light. I know of someone who couldn’t contact his wife when she was at a convention years ago. She just wouldn’t answer her cell phone. He finally called her hotel room phone in the AM. When she answered she was whispering. She kept whispering until he asked her why she was whispering. Then she spoke in a normal voice. He never thought anything about it until years later when he found out that she was having an affair. She didn’t want to wake up the OM.

Larryh1996 posted 7/22/2017 12:58 PM

I remember reading a story on Loveshack similar to what Michigan wrote. If I'm not mistaken the OM was the WW's instructor and she used 'weekend courses' as an opportunity to hook up with OM. The BS too never thought anything of it until it was too late

You should note down events that is suspicious or that seems inconsistent to what she told you. I wrote down many events that I found suspicious and confronted my WS. Of course by the time I confronted, I already had evidence of a PA. Her excuses differed from what she previously told me. She couldn't keep her stories straight . Writing these events down helped me discover the depth of her affair and how long it traced back to.

You need more evidence of a physical affair before confonting these doubts or otherwise she would just continue downplaying these as more 'happy hours'.

Another thing that may help is revealing to the OBS about the EA. OM might admits things to the OBS that your WW won't admit.

Stevesn posted 7/22/2017 13:53 PM

Pine. I can't remember if u are both in IC but she definitely needs to work on her boundaries and you on the pain from her betrayal.

After that it sounds like you always needed MC because the communications between you had broken down. If you weren't telling her you love her and she's beautiful and vice versa the past few years then things were not going great. Start MC after you both get IC under your belt.

How specific are you getting asking about PA? If you are just saying "was it physical " then that is insufficient. Her definition of that may be wildly different than yours.

I would tell her you want to ask questions pre poly so you can work on what to ask. When there are no distractions sit down with something non alcoholic - coffee or whatever - and ask her questions. If she is remorseful she should agree to it.

When it comes to the physical questions be specific.

- ever hug him
- ever kiss him on cheek?
- ever kiss him on lips?
- open mouth?
- tongue?
- did he ever rub or touch or massage you breasts over clothes
- under clothes?
- has he seen you breasts uncovered
- has his mouth been on any part of them
- has he seen your V
- has he used fingers on your V
- has he used his mouth or tongue on your V
- have you seen his P
- has his P been in your mouth
- have u licked it
- has his P been in your V
- was there any other Physical contact I haven't described. If so what (e.g. Sucking fingers or toes)
- Etc

Sorry if went to far for a posting but u need to ask specific questions.

Tell her she must answer truthfully because you are deciding which of these questions will be asked on the poly.

Read the full Joseph's letter to her about honesty and the truth then ask her again.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:56 PM, July 22nd (Saturday)]

MickeyBill2016 posted 7/22/2017 15:57 PM

While I think she understands my position she told me her story is never going to change because nothing physical happened. She is resolute.
My hopes of obtaining any sort of parking lot confession are slim at best.

Actually I think there could be a PL confession. "NO PA!" is her story and is sticking to it. She can't back out now. If she fails the poly she has already planted the seed of doubt in your head with the false positive narrative. Probably has said something like "ok but I know a poly is a waste of time, they don't work" in order to convince you to cancel it.

Is she in a PA? Magic 8 ball would say "Most Likely".

The added aspect of other women find the OM attractive is an interesting comment. Either "it's no big deal all the girls are doing it" or she got "picked from the herd to be his special friend" neither one is vindicates her actions.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 4:01 PM, July 22nd (Saturday)]

HealingNow posted 7/22/2017 18:08 PM

Hey Pine,

I don't post lots...and have only recently starting reading after a multi-year absence.

My WW wife was resolute. NO PA! I asked the question hundreds of times in hundreds of different ways...the answer was always the same.

Over a year after DDay, we were laying in bed, and the A came up. I asked again. She denied. Then I thought of a different angle....I said 'Swear on your Mother's Grave'.

Her mother had died a decade earlier from cancer.

She refused. She stated she wouldn't/couldn't involve the memory of her mother in the A.

I persisted. She refused to swear....this lasted for maybe 15 minutes....

Until she broke down in an hysterical, convulsive fit of crying.

For me, it's been a decade, and I've never fully R'd with my WW, but we stay married. However, my personal healing didn't start until she finally admitted to me what I (without actual hard proof) knew to be reality.

Good luck.

HellFire posted 7/22/2017 18:16 PM

She wants you to delete those texts, so if you decide to tell the other man's wife, the evidence will be gone. She's protecting him.

Nycountrystrong posted 7/22/2017 19:26 PM

The looking back at your wife's past actions and seeing them in a different light after your discoveries is common. I know I did it. There were instances where my gut told me something was wrong in the past and through her manipulating me I didn't see them for what they were.

That and I had blind faith that my wife and I loved each other and were on the same page as to what was and was not acceptable in a relationship. We had a hiccup early on with her online chatting with other men and some questionable interactions with some friends.

I addressed it, we talked about it and, I thought, had resolved it. It wasn't until looking back after D-DAY that I could see that all she did was get sneakier and sneakier about how she carried on these activities.

At the end of the day we can lie to everyone but ourselves... Once I stopped lying to myself about what she had been doing... I had to look back at past actions and reevaluate them for what they were.... warnings I didn't see for what they were at the time. Its tough, and I'm sorry you're dealing with this pain

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