SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For some background, you can read my original story here:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=495894

My wife an I are currently in a month-long trial trying to... I'm not sure... build some optimism I suppose about the possibility of staying married. The problem is that, in spite of the the fact that she had an affair, everything is still focussing on whether I can become a better husband, someone she would want to be married to. It's twisted, but at the moment she holds all the cards because she is the one who wants to leave, and I'm not willing to break up our family without trying absolutely everything to save it.

One of the many big obstacles to any kind of recovery for us is the fact that, at this point, she doesn't really seem to regret her affair. She says that it's "hard to feel bad about something that made me feel good." She acknowledges that it was morally wrong, and probably unhealthy as well, but the remorse just isn't there. And I think that we both know that we can't recover without a true repentance on her part.

Rebuilding my marriage with an unrepentant adulterer, in addition to being impossible, isn't attractive to me, and as a result I very nearly called for a separation myself, but second-guessed it when I thought, once again, about my daughter. Maybe, I thought, something in her can change. I don't know how. I don't know when, but maybe it can change.

Which brings me to my question: Has anyone had any experience with an unrepentant spouse who eventually came around, someone who initially was not sorry about the affair but came to a place of true remorse? If so, how did it happen?

TBH, putting the OM feet first into a wood chipper and using what came out of the other end to paint "fuck you" on the side of his house would probably feel good. But that doesn't make it right. And it doesn't mean you are entitled to do it. It's still wrong.

And therein lies the problem. Your wife is stuck in entitlement land. Well here's some news for her. You are entitled to be respected. You are entitled to be honoured. You are entitled to a faithful wife. She is NOT entitled to date. That's the agreement you make when you get married.

You are clinging to a memory of a marriage that no longer exists, and thereby torturing yourself and giving her all the power in the relationship. So she won't change. Why would she. She has no reason to change.

If you want your very best shot at wining her back then you need to get her to start respecting you. And for that to happen you need to start respecting yourself. If she's moved out great, now is your opportunity. You have a couple of options

1. Go NC with her and go 180 for you. That will give you the clarity to make a healthier choice than just waiting, and just maybe make her realise she has something to lose. However it's equally likely you will come to your senses and realise you are being emotionally abused.

2. Lay down the law. Tell her she's either in the marriage or out. If she dithers, file for divorce. If she says she's in, then demand she come back to the house and lay down the law in terms of your demands for reconciliation.

You need to realise its not about you winning her back, its about her winning you back. Until YOU believe that she certainly won't

If you wait, nothing will change. In fact it will almost certainly get worse.

[This message edited by LonelyHusband at 3:51 PM, May 18th (Saturday)]

You need to realise its not about you winning her back, its about her winning you back.

Well put LH, and true. She's the one who screwed up royally here, not you. YOU ARE the prize to be won or lost, not her. You weren't the world's greatest husband before the A? Probably true, but I'd bet the farm she wasn't the world's greatest wife, either. And the A proves that. She needs to focus on being a much, much BETTER WIFE. One who doesn't betray her husband, for starters.

If she doesn't get that now, you need to make her see that. NC and the 180 are in order. Best of luck bro.

You ask:

Can an unrepentant cheater change?

I ask back to you....

If the cheater is unrepentant, then why WOULD they change?

eta: ***If so, how did it happen?***

If remorse isn't pretty much an immediate thing.....the ONLY other way that I have ever seen the WS turn around was when the BS was completely *done* dealing with all the B(ull)S(hit) and ready to end the relationship. And I'm not talking about a wishy-washy end. I mean a hard-core GTFO end.

Ans just FYI, some people never find remorse regardless of what happens.

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 4:02 PM, May 18th (Saturday)]

the ONLY other way that I have ever seen the WS turn around was when the BS was completely *done* dealing with all the B(ull)S(hit) and ready to end the relationship. And I'm not talking about a wishy-washy end. I mean a hard-core GTFO end.

Agree with this completely. The path is that the BS plays nicey nicey for as long as they can until basically their soul dies or they find theit strength and anger and says "fuck this"

then, perhaps, there is change. Until then an unrepentant WS is as likely to change as as I am likely to open the fridge door and be passed a beer by a new species of fridge-dwelling luminescent goblin.

I have a question, too: Would you be able to trust an unrepentant cheater who claimed they had changed?

everything is still focussing on whether I can become a better husband, someone she would want to be married to.

You and what sort of husband you were/are is not the reason your WW had an A. She had an A because she is selfish and only cares about her own pleasure, her own life, so much so that she jeopardizes your's and your daughter's.

Put it another way, if you were a "bad" husband then she should D you, not risk getting HIV from sleeping with some other guy (I know you said they didn't get that far, but they would have and dammit I'm sick to death of cheaters not realizing that above and beyond risking the BS emotional health, they are risking the BS actual physical health too, it's a real sore point with me).

She calls you a bad husband so she doesn't have to think what she did was wrong. It's a simple mental trick aka blameshifting that compartmentalizing WS are fond of. So your wife is literally shifting the blame for the A from herself to you. How convenient to believe that, right?

It's twisted, but at the moment she holds all the cards because she is the one who wants to leave, and I'm not willing to break up our family without trying absolutely everything to save it.

As long as you both stay focused on her, this is true to some degree. Hence the recommendations that you "180" her, as in detach, focus on yourself, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and stop asking, cajoling, reacting to her. Detach so much that she starts wondering where *you* went.

One of the many big obstacles to any kind of recovery for us is the fact that, at this point, she doesn't really seem to regret her affair.

There is such a thing as a "fog" where it can take a WS awhile to feel true shame. Without shame, you'll get no remorse. Shame is the feeling part of remorse. Remorse is the action part.

The thing is, you can't force her to feel shame. You can't trick her into it. Either she will or she won't. Hence the 180 advice. It sets you up to focus on you, helps you detach way in advance of S or D, and *sometimes* can cause the WS to realize that they did want what they had, feel shame and offer remorse.

So to answer your question. Yes, an unrepentant cheater can find enlightenment, feel shame and offer remorse. Sometimes IC causes it (they explore why they are the way they are and it clarifies things for themselves), and sometimes the 180 can cause it (they realize what they are about to lose). MC rarely causes it (b/c most MCs focus on the interaction between spouses which can often enable the WS into blaming the BS, not helpful for bringing the enlightenment necessary for change in outlook).

What you don't want to do is lose months, years of your life sitting around waiting for this to happen. That's why many have been telling you to get thee to an attorney immediately and start figuring out what it will take to D, and in all other ways focus on what you need, how to build your life without your WW in it. It's never going to feel good to do this because this is putting your rational cart before your emotional horse. It's often done not being ready to actually D. But if you do this, look at yourself, if your WW DOES experience remorse, you are effectively no longer a doormat, and if she doesn't? Then you're ready to lower the boom and get your life back.

[This message edited by cayc at 6:28 PM, May 18th (Saturday)]

I know, I'm stubborn. The phrase "paralyzed by hope" rings true. I think that maybe a better way to put it would be that I am "married to hope."

I say this because I don't want to be married to my wife the way she is now, with this narcissistic sense of self-entitlement and her continued justification of her infidelity. It is terrible looking at the woman that I have loved and seeing a stranger. Since I don't want to be married to her the way she is now, what am I still doing here? I am holding on to the fool's hope that she will change. That is why I say that I am "married to hope."

And it's not entirely out the question, but the question is, what am I willing to live with? I think that it is perfectly within the realm of possibility that she will, over the course of this month, come to believe that she is better off staying with her family. It's unlikely, but it's possible. And of course, I want her to stay with us, but not for that reason. If she decides to stay with us, and even if she decides that she never wants to have an affair again, that it was just a phase and she's over it or some such thing, as long as she still holds on to it in her heart, as long as she continues to believe that she doesn't have to feel bad about it because it met her needs at a time of need, or some such nonsense... could I really live with that? Could I live with her choosing me, but never really regretting the affair? Could I accept that kind of insult for the sake of keeping our family together? Could I ever learn to love her again if she was like that?

I don't know. My inclination is to believe that the affair has to be actively put to death in her heart. It can't just "fade away."

I think that I am slowly coming to a place of acceptance about the end of this marriage. The idea of separation no longer stings as much as it used to, and I can envision myself giving her the "boot" so-to-speak.

Still, I think I'm going to save that move until the very end. If she decides to leave, then good riddance. Let her go. But I still don't know if I can bring myself to end this before it has the chance to play out. We're stuck living with each other until July 1st anyway. I'm going to stick with the program, I think, but when the time comes, if she still wants to move out, I won't shed any tears.

I liked the comment about the woodchipper, by the way. I had similar thoughts, though my version involved forcibly sterilizing the asshole with my boot. Here's the problem though: While these are, of course, nothing more than fantasies, if I did ever carry out any kind of revenge against the guy, I probably wouldn't feel guilty about it (well, maybe I'd feel guilty about the woodchipper, but not so much the testicle-crushing scenario). Sure, it would be wrong, but it would feel so right.

And that's the problem with my wife right now. It's not that her moral compass is off. She recognizes that what she did was wrong. It's that her moral sentiment is off. She doesn't "feel" that it was wrong. She doesn't regret it.

A better analogy might be this: "It felt good, so I don't feel bad about it" is the kind of thing you might say about having a few too many drinks. It's not the kind of thing you get to say if you get in your car and run over someone afterwards.

It's fine to do things that make you feel good, as long as they don't harm others. But for her to take that line for something that has caused this much damage to me and to her family... There's just been a complete disconnect from me on any level of empathy... but I don't know if that will last forever. It's hard for me to imagine that it could, but then again, what do I know? I'm new to this.

Hun, I am not trying to be that guy and I know where you are. You see your W for what she could be, and not as she really is. You see the good times and how much in love with them you are, but brush away the bad times as part of "if she would only change, xyz would not happen anymore."

I know because I am married to hope too. After each heartwrenching betrayal, each abuse of my affection, etc. WH starts to act right again and I get my hopes up. But it never lasts.

If she is unrepentant, then she has no motivation to change. If she has no motivation, then simply put she won't. You are dealing with someone who values you so little that she can't even muster up regret for literally tearing out your heart and stomping that sucker flat. I am so sorry for you. I am sure that your W could be a good person if she was give. The inclination, but as it stands, she is in "ME" mode.

I know that this is hard to hear. But this is no longer about your W. Make it about you. Do not let her get away with no repercussions. Be strong about your happiness and do not let ANYONE usurp that. And if she doesn't play by your terms, 189, NC, and be done with it.

((((((((((Infinite hugs)))))))))

Infidelity aside, I'm sorry to say that it just seems like your W wants out of the marriage. Gently, because I know this is all devastating emotionally, I think you might be asking the wrong question. It's not whether an unrepentant cheater can change, it's whether or not she still wants to be married to you. I know you know this. I just read all of your posts. Everyone has told you basically the same thing. You've basically acknowledged it. You said she is in MC to negotiate the end of the marriage, not to save it.

It takes time to get to the least common denominator, but I think you might be there. It's simple enough to find out. You can ask just ask her. If she says she's done, then she's done. That means your marriage is done, like it or not. The infidelity was just one her kind, parting gifts to you on her way out the door.

You'll look back and be thankful you're not married to someone who could be so heartless. Dude, she's shot you, you're on the fucking floor bleeding and guess what, she's about to turn around and walk right out the door, checking her text messages as she walks. You're hurt. She is not. She's pretty sure you weren't wounded badly enough to die, but shooting you didn't bother her. She had to let you know somehow that she was done with you. So, she shot you. As she reaches for the door, you softly say to her, "can we give it 30 more days?"

Start healing your wound and getting stronger. Protect yourself from the last person you ever thought would shoot you, your wife.

I'm sorry you're where you are. Keep being a good dad. Strength to you.