SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You deserve a week off and someone to give you foot rubs, meals in bed and 24 hour a day commiseration. Instead, you, after ONLY 4 months of dealing with one of the worst trauma of one's life, are proceeding with grace, dignity and intelligence. You are introspective but allow yourself the opportunity to yell and scream when the need arrives. You, my dear, are a survivor and a role model.

Take a break from all the CRAP once in a while like you did with your GFs. You need it, you deserve it, and your family will continue to have their wonderful HHNF with them for years to come.

Kudos (and hugs) to you.

XXSK

ScaredyKat, you are so right - don't we all. You made me tear up when I read that.

And I appreciate your experience. No doubt I am headed in the same direction. Ugh. They have both the WS and the SA handbook to guide them, don't they.

We had a funny discussion about the higher power element of 12 step when we first discussed it. He takes a similar position, doesn't believe in it and he should be responsible and not powerless over his actions. My take was when the problem is bigger than you, and you can't fix it, you ARE powerless over your actions whether you believe in a higher power or not. I told him at that time I didn't give a shit if he admitted he was an addict, just admit that the problem was bigger than him and he can't fix it alone. He should try 12 step because you have to try everything when the chips are down. He could "pray" to the bottle of ketchup in our fridge when they went into the higher power stuff, whatever, just take whatever he could from it to make progress in an otherwise unsolvable issue. It was so not funny at the time, but I have a way with words and examples when I get riled up and it is funny in hindsight.

I'm buying a passive gps logger today, as I have untraceable means to do it. I'd only get to check he logs once a week at most since it's passive, but it would point out if he goes anywhere other than the house or work. That will keep me in the loop if a problem arises but keep me from obsessing about it and spending time I don't have, LOL. I don't feel like there's any problem right now, but since I know relapse is a reality, not a possibility, I want to be prepared.

Just a quick update.

This past weekend our sitter canceled and I had to go to our class alone. WH watched the kids since I missed the last class. It was a really good class that covered key points in achieving recovery from SA, and key info for spouses, and it also addressed briefly on the spiritual component of 12 step and addiction recovery, which is a sticking point for WH. I will expand on all these points in a future post.

I also got a passive keylogger and am tracking myself this week to see how it works. So far, despite it being not particularly user-friendly or intuitive, it's working well even from inside my purse in my house. So I have that if I ever feel I need it, since it's not tied to a subscription or anything. It's much more fun to track myself and learn all the features/issues at my own pace instead of under duress trying to track someone else.

However, a stomach bug has hit my house so that puts a lot of things on hold. Just didn't want to have a big time lag in my posts not accounted for, since I'm using this as my personal reference as time goes on.

So in the last class, the instructor that day, who is the head of the SA center, expanded a little bit on the spiritual component of addiction recovery and 12 step. It was in the context of explaining many of the key elements of a successful SA's recovery, one item in a large checklist if you will. So not a dealbreaker in and of itself, but one of many factors that cumulatively affect recovery.

So he basically said, households that do not have a religious or spiritual component in their family and routines have trouble with battling addiction. This is because the parents have no higher authority/power to answer to, the buck stops with them. This is not bad in and of itself, until said parents are struggling with making good choices and behaviors, they have no one/thing to hold a standard to other than their own compromised judgment.

So he said that what works for many that do not subscribe to religion or traditional spiritual practices in their family, is to think of God/higher power as G.O.D. - Good Orderly Direction. So you have a standard to compare to outside yourself. Is what I'm doing, what I'm believing, feeling, reacting, etc in compliance with Good Orderly Direction in my life and the other lives affected? This can be your "higher power". To me, this is not unlike the Ethics classes taught in business school, there are questions you can use to determine if what you are doing is ethical, you can adapt these kinds of questions for Good Orderly Thinking to make it easier for you to determine if you are acting in accordance with the G.O.D. directive.

To DH, this is just another way of saying WWJD? Which is sad. I told him he needed to open his mind. I told him I know he wasn't really ready to take this course now, but I appreciated that he was trying to anyway. I told him that I understood that he felt HIS definition of Addict and the concept of control of his actions did not exactly match the specific wording of 12 step. But but if he would just step back, and understand he does accept he has a problem, and that he needs help do fix it and cannot do it alone, that in and of itself is in the spirit of the program. That he needs to quit arguing the details and not seeing the forest for the trees. He needs to let go and let the program take him where he needs to go. The rest will follow.

He reluctantly agreed, and said he still was going to try the three different flavors of 12 step available in the area to see which one fit him best. Not only are the founding organizations different, but then the local interpretation/mix of people are different so he wants to find one that speaks to him.

I post this not only to record our struggle, but also because so many others are reluctant to try 12 step because of the religious component. Here is my take on it. Faith, by definition, is believing in something you don't have conclusive evidence in. To experience growth, healing, pretty much anything positive you need to have faith that something will work even when you aren't 100% sure it will. You are surrendering to the unknown, hoping for the best, in order to hopefully better yourself. You don't have to believe in God to do that. You just have to have FAITH in something other than yourself. To me, that is a higher power. And that is all you need to begin 12 step, or in anything in life really.

But I also could be talking out my ass because I've never been to a meeting. Yet. Take this with a grain of salt.

Hathnofury, you are totally my hero! I can barely put one foot in front of the other day to day and here you are handling all this shit and writing and sharing it with the rest of us. You are one amazing woman.

Your WH is an IDIOT! Sorry, but I just had to say that. I think I might be kind of in love with you at this point. LOL

Anyway, hugs to you and thank you so much for taking the time to share here. You are helping others more than you know. I hope you are getting as much as you are giving.

*smooch*

Hee hee! I think a LOT of people don't understand why we put up with WS in general. When the majority of them simply cannot fathom the depths of what they've done to us and their family, when they cannot see how horrific the things they've done really are. Even when they are really trying to do everything they ask you and appear to be remorseful.

This is my totally unqualified answer: they have to. Otherwise they can't live with themselves. It's a defense mechanism. It's possible that deep down subconsciously they understand on some level, but in general awareness they can't. It's a matter of self-preservation. And that compromises their ability to see the aftermath and effects of what they have done.

I'm not saying this to justify their behavior. It is what it is. They do it, subconsciously, so they don't shoot themselves in the face. It sucks. You didn't cause it, can't control it, can't fix it. But it affects you nonetheless, and way worse than it does the WS. I'm not saying that they often go through their own personal hell when they face their demons, if they ever do, but they have to *choose* to do that. We don't get to choose as BS to get the shit sandwich.

I don't want to give the impression I'm forcing WH to do 12 step, or "work his program for him". My boundary/requirement was go check one of them out. That was it. I didn't care which one, there are many different kinds and different formats to try. Just go and see one, see what it is and that it is probably not what he thinks it is. He's the one volunteering to go to one meeting of all three. Or so he says. We shall see if he really does.

I also didn't force him to go to this class. He chose to. I told him I was going regardless, even though it was geared at couples. Even though it was expensive, it was cheaper than going to individual and group therapy a la carte - for either of us. So I'm not sure if he went just because I was (and that could be to keep tabs on me, for all I know LOL), because it was cheaper, because it meant he didn't have to go see the CSAT that made him mad for the time being, or what. IDK, and it doesn't matter.

The truth is he's NOT ready to get the full benefit of what this course/program has to offer. Just like he's not really ready to get any significant help from 12 step. He will likely have to do it again. And I'm ok with that. He will learn more than not going, he will likely make progress he otherwise would have not made. Whether or not I'm still around when he takes it again, or starts going in earnest, or whatever the future holds, remains to be seen. I can only focus on MY stuff at the moment.

I fully admit I'm not being as hardass as I want to be. First, because it wouldn't do much except in the spirit of 180, and I've already got a lot of what the 180 does for you going on already. Second, because the post-nup is not finalized. There is really no point in kicking a hornet's nest when that is at stake. Chances are my boundaries/requirements will change after that is finalized, and mostly like will at the year mark as well. SI tells me I will be more pissed off then in year two. Can you only imagine what that means will happen then?

Just wanted to check in and say everything is fine. Still waiting on the post nup (takes a long time to do due diligence and draw up), everything is ok at home. He is really making an effort at home to be there for me and the kids. Not grovelling at my feet and kissing my butt or anything, but there is definitely effort that has not been made for some time.

I randomly found a copy of the 5 Love languages at the library, and am reading it. We haven't done the tests or anything, but I'm fairly certain I know what his are and read the parts about how to communicate better with someone who speaks those languages. He doesn't fit Touch and Gifts in the typical manner, of course he has his own weird spin on it, but those are his. I never really saw the Touch side because outside of sex he was not overly affectionate person, and I never saw the Gifts side while he likes to give gifts,he is very inconsistent about doing it and he's not good about receiving them. I've changed how I approach stuff and say stuff to him accordingly, and saw a big difference. So when I get on my long plane ride Saturday I plan to read up on the stuff that applies to ME, since I won't be interrupted 17 times by needy little people.

So I am going on a trip with my FOO to do some volunteer work, which my sis does for a living. I'm so looking forward to it, time away from WH and my kids always gives me clarity and perspective and allows me to actually miss and appreciate them. It will be the last trip/big ME thing I will get to do until the end of the year. So that is why I won't be posting for a while, I'll be gone - but doing good things for ME.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 11:35 AM, October 20th (Thursday)]

WTF.n I just post an "Everything's ok" and it all goes to shit.

My keylogger is good for catching keystrokes, not so good at catching web addresses. I have to look at the web history, assuming it's not been compromised, to see where he's been going. I hadn't checked in a while because I'm trying to back off that shit. I checked today because I saw a facebook comment that didn't jive. I couldn't really figure out that, but I saw that he'd been looking at a LOT of inapropriate pix. Not real porn, but bare butts, girls in their undies, provocative poses, etc. My boundaries were very clear, nothing remotely suspect, because I would be checking up and I didn't want anything the kids couldn't see while I was doing it. And obviously, in the course they elaborated on abstinence from this stuff for obvious reasons.

I called him at work, on his private cell, told him to shut the door. Told him I had seen the web history and was very disappointed. That there was a huge breach of trust. My boundaries and requirements compromised. And that there would be consequences. And we'd discuss it at home later. He said nothing. I said his response told me volumes. He said he couldn't discuss it at work. Like he couldn't say I'm sorry or something vague that was affirming for me.

WTF. Now I have to decide what the consequences are. Because it honestly doesn't matter what he says or does as a result of being busted. There have to be consequences. IDK what to do. Make him sleep somewhere else? Suspend his computer access? I could change his and my password on the computer so he couldn't use it, but then he could use his phone or work laptop and I couldn't track it. Not that he isn't probably going to do that now he's busted, while I am gone.

I have a fallback in my pocket, the ultimate response to a betrayal for him. If I took off my wedding rings, it would hurt him to no end. I do not have the tremendous attachment to the rings that he does, it really wouldn't affect me. but if I play that card, I've got nothing dramatic left for anything else in the future. This is a serious setback but not a dealbreaker (if he handles it right), yet anyway. So I am hesitant to play that card right now. But I might if he handles it badly.

Any suggestions for consequences? I have told him in the past the types of consequences I would inflict but they were not specific to offenses. Monetary fines that go to *my* bank account, sleeping elsewhere, telling his mom/sister, etc. But I am open to other suggestions.

Crap. My sitch is complicated by my impending trip. I could kick him out for the night, but it would complicate the handoff of the kids when I leave.

I guess straight up 180. ignore him as much as possible, without making it weird for the kids. If he doesn't act remorseful for what he has done, take my rings off and leave them out for him to see. There isn't much point in restricting his computer access, he'd drive it underground with other means if he isn't planning to do that anyway - or even if not, the seed is planted and I can't trust him not to at any rate. I don't want to tell his family or use extreme measures until the post nup is done, taking off the rings will be a risk as it is.

I'm pissed off I have to be the bad guy when I haven't done anything.I know the 180 isn't supposed to be punitive towards him, its supposed to be be empowering for me. To step back, removed the focus on him, learn the lesson, etc. But he broke my boundaries and requirements. There needs to be consequences.

Fuck.

(((hathnofury))) I am sorry...like you I would be livid, more so because it means that any trust he built up is now gone. I am not good with consequences so I will just offer my support & hugs

[This message edited by forksintheroad at 1:49 PM, October 20th (Thursday)]

Hey! I've been following you and rooting for you, and I think this is my first post on the subject.

I was just thinking about what you said about your rings.

As much as your WH desperately needs to "get it", I don't think taking off your rings to punish/scare him is the right approach. A big part of the 180 is doing things for yourself, and when it comes to the rings I think they should be handled in the manner that is reflective of your heart. Take them off if you think the commitment is broken or you no longer want to wear them. I don't think that taking them off will get the reaction out of him that you are hoping for.

I'm really sorry everything went so shit. You've got some hard choices coming up, because he is definitely not REMOTELY holding up his end of the bargain.

Hugs to you.

thanks, forks and jrazz. You are probably right, I can't be sure it would have the effect intended. I was thinking in the spirit of actions instead of words, but it's still punitive and parent-y. I still reserve the right to do it if he handles his next step badly. He's already losing points with me for being silent, and not immediately coming home to try to rectify anything, or at least saying he would ASAP.

I'm going to take the kids out as soon as the olders are out of school. We are going to have a good time. I am not going to tell WH where we are. Answer texts only if I suspect he will call the police or something, LOL, and bring them home at bedtime. Of course now that I've planned that he is probably planning to stay at work until after their bedtime if nothing else to avoid confrontation in front of the kids, but still, fuck him. If it wouldn't be wildly disruptive to the kids schooling we'd stay the night at a hotel and have a slumber party.

Whoa...

Not even an "I'm sorry; and we'll talk as soon as I get home."

He's not remorseful...and this is a huge problem, in mt opinion.

HNF, I realize in reading your posts that is what I have lacking in my boundaries...the consequences. I didn't realize this until I read your post and got a PM from another poster.

First I want to thank you so much for posting your story. I can relate to all of it. You have a way with words and very articulate, which helps me alot!!

With that said, I am thinking about your situation. What comes to mind is this...why do you have to lay down a consequence immediately?

I think the 180 and your silence on the subject will say volumes at the moment.

I know you want to jump at the first sign of anything but maybe, you should just take the time and think things through.

You could just tell H that you are disppointed in what you found and then silence.

He is expecting you to blow or something so this will throw him off.

I don't know, I am still trying to figure things out from my end so take what you need and leave the rest.

Hope you have a good time away from the mess. I have been taking a break from all the surveilences(sp) I have to say, I am feeling a bit free not to have to playing cop. I know I will have to check again but for now I am feeling okay with not knowing anything.

Good Luck with everything.

Sending Hugs and strength to you. I clearly remeber you talking me down from a similar situation a week or so ago. It sucks. It makes us feel like this is a life sentence.

IMHO Cheetabump makes a lot of sense. You have been so pro active. Take a break. 12 steps have a slogan, "let go and let god" Give up thye battle but not the war. For now.

One thing I remember thinking when I discovered an early slip, after my H had had several months of sobriety, was "OMG, He is REALLY sick" The idea that after the work and time and expressions of guilt and determination, he was back looking at porn anyway, well, I realized the extent of the addiction.

Your H has to get back on track and make tomorrow a sober day. And so do you. Control the things you can. One day at a time.

Thanks everybody for the support. One day at a time.

So what happened? I took the kids to McDonalds for two hours. It sounds trivial, but if you knew us you'd know it wasn't. My kids rarely get to go there and don't even know what a happy meal is. I got them all happy meals, and let them play, and when the needed rest breaks they did their homework in between. After two hours they were exhausted and ready to go home. I got them settled and WH came home shortly after. He helped put them to bed and immediately sat next to me, instead of our usual waiting a while for them to sleep before we try to talk.

He immediately apologized. He admitted full fault, that what he did was wrong, clearly against my boundaries, etc. He said he was not seeking it (and I already knew that from the internet trail) but he should have clicked away instead of continuing to peruse all the available pages. At the time he wasn't thinking it was more or less porn, and realized after the fact how utterly inappropriate it was and that he would have to tell me. He did not get to tell me right away, stuff happened (which is true) and then he didn't tell me that night because I went to sleep early, and then it was too hard to try to tell me in the morning with all the kiddos around. When I confronted him at work, he panicked and had a deer in the headlights moment and froze. All he knew was what he wanted to say, he couldn't say at work. He realized now there were things he could have said that were more generic to show he accepted guilt and responsibility.

He apologized over and over again. I had taken cheetah's advice, even though I hadn't read it yet. I was quiet, let him talk. He said he wasn't trying to hide it, that's why it was still in the history. Asked me several times to go downstairs and review the entire history going back four months to prove he has otherwise been sticking to my boundaries, which I declined. He said he'd call the CSAT, but because of my trip he would not be able to see him right away, but he'd see him as soon as I came back. That he would go to some sort of 12 step right after I got back, he was pretty sure there was next Friday night. Asked me what the consequences would be, he deserved them. He was clearly remorseful and afraid.

I told him I didn't know what the consequences would be, I'd have to think about it. I had considered having him sleep elsewhere that night, but it was not logistically practical given my trip etc. I told him I appreciated all that he said, and understood where he was coming from. I told him he had destroyed any trust he had worked so hard to build up until that point. That it made me feel like he was not committed to me and my healing, his recovery, our marriage. That I didn't want to check up on him anymore, but when crap like this happens, makes it hard to wonder what ELSE is there I don't know. How each time something like this happens, it's like DDay all over again. How each time something like this happens, it destroys the whole day for me, compromises my ability to be a good parent, and the kids suffer as a result. That our kids deserved better, I deserved better. I really didn't know how long I could keep doing this. That it was bad enough he did it, and he had made it exponentially worse not making it a priority to tell me and handling it badly upon initial confrontation. He poured salt in the wound doing that.

He apologized again. Said he was committed to me, my healing, his recovery, our family, our marriage. He recognized again that he handled it badly, and accepted responsibility for the fallout. Again asked me to go and check the history, to prove he has been fulfilling his commitment until that point, he was not the man he had been for four months in that moment, and it was an honest fall down a slippery slope he wasn't strong enough to recognize was happening in real time. I told him I didn't want to go check, and it didn't matter. Once was too many. Once destroys everything built up to that point.

I told him I hoped this illustrated to him how grave the problem is, how it is bigger than both of us and we needed help. I didn't want to be his accountability partner, he needed to find a sponsor. Which he agreed, he said his first priority was to choose which 12 step ASAP then get a sponsor. He kept apologizing, kept accepting responsibility, kept saying what he'd do, etc. Kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, I guess. But I was not ready to do anything else, and I think what I said was enough for the time being. Told him I was done talking about it today, I had already lost too much time as a result of all this. He asked if he needed to sleep on the couch, and I told him not this time, we had to get as much good sleep as we can to get through the week.

And we spent the rest of the evening like we normally do, talking about what happened in our days, about the kids, what needed to happen to prepare for my trip, watched TV, etc. And then he broke out in hives, which was probably due to the stress because I'm pretty sure he thought I was going to leave him before he got home.

Tonight we celebrate his birthday, which is tomorrow. We take the kids out to a hibachi restaurant, and they've been so looking forward to it. Tomorrow I get on a plane not long after our class, which is the first group therapy session. Unfortunately not a warm beach trip with cabana boys bringing me drinks, LOL, but a trip with my FOO to do community service. Rebuild homes for those that lost everything, something my sister does full time. I will relish the time away, reconnect with my FOO away from my kids and WH, and will be thankful for what I have and that I can help others that have nothing.

Jrazz is totally right, I need to make some hard choices. I have been blindly thinking I can avoid them for a year, because I should take a year to let the shock wear off before making life-altering decisions. But I have to be prepared to act sooner if needed.

Today I have my own challenges. My youngest, who is three, can read. I have finally confirmed it today, he can read phonetically (not just sight read or recognize words off things) just like his siblings did at this age. But the differences is he has access to things they didn't at that age (the computer, the dvr) and can get into a whole lot more trouble than they did back then. The other two, even though they are under age 8, read at such a high level I have to be careful about hiding books/class materials to help me because not only can they infer what the cover says, they would take it off and read it.

I'm a little pissed I can't just enjoy that my kids are brilliant and be proud of them. Instead I have to reconfigure lots of things to protect them from crap as a result of their dad. I can't just relax and focus on whatever it takes for my healing, I have to take measures that what I do for my healing does not inadvertantly traumatize the kids. Ugh.

hathnofury,

I'm a bit confused.

You posted:

He said he was not seeking it

I'm on my computer A LOT and none of the inappropriate things your husband was viewing EVER show up on my computer.

I couldn't really figure out that, but I saw that he'd been looking at a LOT of inapropriate pix. Not real porn, but bare butts, girls in their undies, provocative poses, etc. My boundaries were very clear, nothing remotely suspect, because I would be checking up

I really don't understand your husband's explanation about how/why he was viewing this "stuff."

Well, it was a link to a Steve Jobs tribute from a silly news site to another site (similar to the Onion but not the Onion), and the reality was it was just a bunch of wanna-be porn pix of girls with iPhones. But there were two incidents, another site I forget now of people taking pix in the mirror of their butts that got progressively worse. But it was kind of Maxim/Mad Magazine-ish, where there were pix of stuffed animals doing it, pets doing it, etc so it was a stupid immature photo thread that went awry into wanna-be porn, as opposed to a legit wanna-be porn thread from the start. Again stemming from a link another silly news site to a new site. So he did it not once, but twice, in the same evening.

I have tracked him watching these silly news sites before, and while the editorial content has mature content (like the Daily Show), there have never been nasty pix or overt sexual content. But he'd never clicked on links/ads from those sites before to other places before.

So it is similar to when I log into my hotmail, there are always ads for local hookups with singles, etc on the sidebar. I'm assuming WH gets the same ads when he checks his hotmail. But I'm not concerned about him using Hotmail because he never clicks those ads, they aren't a threat. But if he did, then I have whole new concerns to be worried about.