Cookies are required for login or registration. Please read and agree to our cookie policy to continue.

Newest Member: Firechild83

Wayward Side :
help - need advice - still have feelings for OW

This Topic is Archived
default

Lucky2HaveMe ( member #13333) posted at 3:56 PM on Sunday, August 5th, 2012

You nailed it, lost. Now, are you willing to do the work? Are you willing to 100% follow that advice? Are you all in with R?

Until now your repeated response is NO. I CANT DO THAT. So everyone tried to tell you the same thing again and again and again.

Until you WANT to purge yourself of your AP, you will continue to mfg reasons why you just CAN'T.

Time for some personal introspection. We have all said everything that can be said. Given you all the advice we have. Your summary above shows you have read the advice, but have you HEARD it? It is time for you to make YOUR decision.

Love isn't what you say, it's what you do.

posts: 8488   ·   registered: Jan. 18th, 2007   ·   location: WNY
id 5957336
default

UnexpectedSong ( member #21761) posted at 5:15 PM on Sunday, August 5th, 2012

For 3+ months I did not contact OW nor follow her on art sites or social media. I sent her no messages and she sent none to me. Does this not count as NC because I occasionally (but not often) looked at a photo or other

It does not count. You need mental NC.

No momentos.

No photos.

No fantasizing.

No wondering "what if".

No listening to her favorite songs.

No watching her favorite movies.

No savoring find memories.

No reading old chat sessions.

No reading old emails.

No searching online.

Etc.

I know you know it. You just don't want to do it.

WW(SA)
"Feedback is the breakfast of champions." - Boris Becker

posts: 6421   ·   registered: Nov. 24th, 2008   ·   location: California
id 5957410
default

bufffalo ( member #21854) posted at 6:18 PM on Sunday, August 5th, 2012

You have not been in NC. Real NC is absolute and requires getting rid of all mementos, not following on social sites, and not thinking of her. Continuing fondness for AP is not ok.

You seem to be self-centered and lacking empathy. You are obsessing over AP when you should be focusing on BW. Through her actions, AP demonstrated that she is not your friend.

BW deserves better. You must either work hard with no excuses or let her go. Immediately go full NC, focus on BW, and get a good IC to fix the issues that caused the A.

Good for you, lostone...i believe you understand the mantra of what SI is all about....

You can "talk the talk"..as you have demonstrated with your answer...can you "walk the walk"??

One thing we say here at SI is "actions speak louder than words"....

One more writing assignemnt for you...please....

Could you write a comparative analysis of what you are "not doing" vs "what you should be doing"....if R is the goal for you and your marriage.

In essence...your actions vs your words....

A few short paragraphs will suffice.....and rather than just a descriptive list of "what", is it possible for you to add some emotional responses giving us some of the "whys"???

thanks...

Bufffalo

[This message edited by bufffalo at 11:27 PM, August 5th (Sunday)]

DDay 9/25/2008

BH-me

posts: 6172   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2008   ·   location: Texas
id 5957467
default

OktoberMest ( member #34173) posted at 10:37 AM on Monday, August 6th, 2012

You have not been in NC. Real NC is absolute and requires getting rid of all mementos, not following on social sites, and not thinking of her. Continuing fondness for AP is not ok.

You seem to be self-centered and lacking empathy. You are obsessing over AP when you should be focusing on BW. Through her actions, AP demonstrated that she is not your friend.

BW deserves better. You must either work hard with no excuses or let her go. Immediately go full NC, focus on BW, and get a good IC to fix the issues that caused the A.

Now write something similar, and try to replace the word "I" for the word "You". And see if you can believe it. Because here's person number 70 telling you that you need to listen to everyone else. Not to save your marriage, you might have already destroyed that. But rather to save your soul, and save the heart of the next person you rip to pieces.

Your AP was never your friend, just someone with the same self esteem and boundary issues that so many WS's have. In time you will recognise that good friends to do not assist their friends to destroy their marriages. Good friends slap you round the head and tell you to get back in there, man up, and sort out your life. You're not evil, you have just made some terrible decisions. Start making sound ones.


posts: 561   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2011   ·   location: UK
id 5958245
default

Winter Snow ( member #24185) posted at 7:26 PM on Monday, August 6th, 2012

Lost,

I know I am very late to the party, but a couple of things have kinda kept me thinking about this thread.

Before getting with her, I had been the OM with a married friend of mine. I got really depressed when she dumped me.

I am not sure anyone has asked you about this, forgive me if I missed it in all the posts.

Could the way this "breakup" happened with your first AP be the reason you don't want to do the same with the OW?

Did the MW from that affair go completely NC with you? It seems like you might be projecting some things from your affair with the MW on this current situation.

From the BS side of the house, I said to my WH many times that he should hate the OW. She worked for him so complete NC was not possible. Let me tell you, it was sheer hell.

I posted in Recon that I couldn't understand why WH didn't hate OW and some very wise WS's told me that hate was not what I was looking for. What I needed for R was indifference. I needed WH to be indifferent towards the OW.

What does indifference mean? it means that you will gladly get rid of anything associated with the OW. It means that none of the stuff means anything to you. It means that she does not hold any positive thought space in your head. It means that you don't go trolling the web for information about her. It means you don't care about her any more.

I did get indifference from my WH. Even though the working together thing added some complexity, my WH started to not care about anything with the OW. It took about 3 months in total.

I will also add this. AFTER he started acting indifferent towards her, she really showed her true colors. She was not compliant OW anymore (just standing by waiting for the D to happen so she could swoop in and take her rightful place). All fantasy thoughts were gone. She was angry, bitter and turned mean towards him. I honestly believe that she has become indifferent as well.

This is what your BW and all these people are trying to tell you. If you won't work towards indifference then let your BW go. There can be no R without it.

What next?

posts: 450   ·   registered: May. 29th, 2009
id 5958925
default

whensitover ( member #31207) posted at 8:57 PM on Tuesday, August 7th, 2012

Okay did I just read that right?? Fleury said you had been the OM in another affair??? I must have totally missed that or something.....WOW.....just.... WOW is all I can say. If that is true, you need to let your wife go, whether she says it to you or not, she can/will find someone else, she has that right and she deserves someone who is going to be faithful to her mentally, physically, and emotionally. She deserves that.

posts: 574   ·   registered: Feb. 16th, 2011
id 5960778
default

 lostone209 (original poster member #36308) posted at 12:04 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Okay did I just read that right?? Fleury said you had been the OM in another affair??? I must have totally missed that or something.....WOW.....just.... WOW is all I can say. If that is true, you need to let your wife go, whether she says it to you or not, she can/will find someone else, she has that right and she deserves someone who is going to be faithful to her mentally, physically, and emotionally. She deserves that.

I was the OM in an internet/phone relationship with a 25 year old MW when I was 17.

My wife and I met online while I was currently involved with MW. She and I were just friends and only began our relationship afterwards.

Fleury's theory is interesting and one I hadn't considered before. I've been thinking about whether to post details about my relationship with the MW.

Mostly I've been trying to slog through NJF, which I keep needing to take breaks from reading because it gets me agitated and is very triggery. I've made it through most of the book by now, though.

me: WH 32
her: BW 29
M 9 years, together 14 years
D-Day: January 2012

posts: 67   ·   registered: Jul. 31st, 2012
id 5961074
default

SisterMilkshake ( member #30024) posted at 12:12 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Oh, I am so sorry about the triggers in NJF. Should have forewarned you. Yes, that is a problem with the book. How do you feel about the info in the book other than the triggers?

BW (me) & FWH both over half a century; married several decades; children
d-day 3/10; LTA (7 years?)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak." ~ Homer Simpson

posts: 15429   ·   registered: Nov. 5th, 2010   ·   location: The Great White North USA
id 5961091
default

 lostone209 (original poster member #36308) posted at 12:20 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

I'm a little wary of continuing to post here due to feeling guilty for taking so many people's time. I'm mostly focusing on trying to finish reading NJF. It's kinda triggery, so I need to take breaks while reading it. I find myself getting jealous of people in it who had instant breakthroughs where they suddenly saw their APs in a different light based on so many things I've already been exposed to.

My BW says that even if I went full NC and got rid of all mementos, if I felt I loved my AP or wasn't sure, then she'd still leave. That's the basic reason for not doing those things immediately... I'm trying to focus on seeing things from a different perspective and see if that leads to anything.

Fluery,

That's an interesting theory that I hadn't thought of before. Not sure if it fits or doesn't. I actually have many theories for why the affair happened but haven't really been able to confirm or deny any of them. None feel particularly right, but nor can i deny them. Nothing has broken the spell.

I'm going to designate the married woman to whom I was an OM to when I was 17 as "MW". I met my wife while I was involved with MW, but BW and I did not become romantic until after that affair ended.

Here's the story:

MW was a friend of mine online. We interacted strictly through chat as friends and she was interested in my writing. I talked to her about her M. She had an abusive husband and two children with him. MW was 25 at the time and her daughters were 7 and 9 I believe.

Anyway, one night her husband left and it didn't sound like he was coming back. At that point, our relationship started to become romantic and sexual. This was actually the first sexual relationship I ever had. We didn't live near each other and had no physical contact, but we did engage in sexual behavior over the phone and through chat.

Her husband soon returned and we continued our affair. At one point, she did break up with me and changed her phone number after I kept calling (yes, I was obsessive OM...). But then somehow I convinced her to resume it, though the relationship wasn't the same after that. We had to be more furtive and even the "sex" wasn't as good.

Eventually, she started up another affair with a religious teacher and we broke up.

I was devastated. I thought my life was over. I really had deluded myself into thinking that she and I would get together and I'd help her raise her children. (Hey, I was 17, ok?).

Anyway, after a month or three, I started a relationship with BW. It was her idea initially, but soon enough I realized I was in love with her and we pretty much planned to spend our lives together.

Several months later, MW called me and wanted to resume our affair. She even said she'd buy a bus ticket to come visit me irl. I told her no and that I was happy with BW (we weren't married back then, just internet bf/gf, but we both we committed to each other and spending our lives together).

So that was that... until a couple years later, when BW and I were still long distance but still quite serious, I decided I wanted to contact MW again and try to be friends. I felt I still loved her platonically and felt that I had made a mistake in making the relationship romantic and sexual.

BW was very unhappy about this and told me she didn't want me to. Friends who I asked about the situation told me I shouldn't.

As you can guess, I went ahead and called MW. We talked and found that our old rapport was still there. But apparently she and her husband had reconciled and she told me how great he was to her. She asked me not to contact her ever again because it wouldn't be fair to him. She also told me that I had taught her how to be open and that this had helped her a lot in her marriage.

Oddly enough, AP also credited me with helping her be more open with people. As you can might guess from my sharing, I am a pretty open person when I'm comfortable with someone.

But, yes, in light of the affair, I do wonder if I had heard something different from MW, if I might have been drawn into an affair back then. I didn't believe I desired anything other than friendship with her at the time, though.

In general, throughout my marriage, but more so earlier on, BW was not happy that I've still had feelings (I believe they are not romantic) for MW. I occasionally (once every year or two) google her, but I have never tried to make contact. I had noticed my feelings for MW they seemed to fade during the affair, actually.

And, why not, I might as well say that there is one other person who I consider myself to have genuinely loved. This relationship actually was platonic and started a year or two before I met BW. She was an unhappily married woman and we once almost crossed a boundary but she stopped things and that was that. We were very close back then (when I was 16 or so - she was 35 I think?), but we considered each other to be the brother and sister each of us never had. I always called her "sis", actually. Unfortunately, our friendship has faded over the years and I'm no longer in contact with her. BW never had any problems with this friend of mine, though.

I actually was thinking my relationship with AP would be like this platonic relationship. It's where I got the "friends who love each other" idea, basically.

me: WH 32
her: BW 29
M 9 years, together 14 years
D-Day: January 2012

posts: 67   ·   registered: Jul. 31st, 2012
id 5961111
default

SisterMilkshake ( member #30024) posted at 12:24 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Hhhmmm, have you ever wondered if you are in love with "in love"?

BW (me) & FWH both over half a century; married several decades; children
d-day 3/10; LTA (7 years?)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak." ~ Homer Simpson

posts: 15429   ·   registered: Nov. 5th, 2010   ·   location: The Great White North USA
id 5961117
default

 lostone209 (original poster member #36308) posted at 12:28 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Oh, I am so sorry about the triggers in NJF. Should have forewarned you. Yes, that is a problem with the book. How do you feel about the info in the book other than the triggers?

It's interesting. I was already familiar with the basic ideas since BW had read it before and has been reading this site for awhile, but I definitely have run across some interesting stuff. I wish this research was more widely available to MCs and ICs and that society had a more realistic view of affairs. I actually think people getting into marriages could use this book, to be honest.

I find that the "men are like this and women are like this" things don't apply to me and my wife, but it's not really a problem to just apply the stuff for women to me. And as I think I've mentioned, I found the main Ralph/Rachel/Lara story to be oddly similar to my own, though without the deception our sex.

Actually, that's the funny thing. Almost every affair except mine seems to involve deception. Am I the only person who did this in the open?

Of course, steamrolling over my wife's consent isn't really any better than deception, but a lot of the stuff in the book is based on there having been deception which wasn't the case with us, really, other than me lying to myself about the nature of the relationship. But I didn't hide anything.

me: WH 32
her: BW 29
M 9 years, together 14 years
D-Day: January 2012

posts: 67   ·   registered: Jul. 31st, 2012
id 5961121
default

 lostone209 (original poster member #36308) posted at 12:33 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Hhhmmm, have you ever wondered if you are in love with "in love"?

BW described me that way during the affair, actually.

I am definitely sentimental.

My IC observed that most of my strongest and most important memories involve relationships with other people. I considered the best memory of one of my brothers, for example, to be when we'd talk to each other very openly during car rides back and forth from my dad's place. IC said I seemed to be driven by relationships with other people.

me: WH 32
her: BW 29
M 9 years, together 14 years
D-Day: January 2012

posts: 67   ·   registered: Jul. 31st, 2012
id 5961131
default

SisterMilkshake ( member #30024) posted at 12:38 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

uncertainone plainly told her BH that she was going to have sex with the OM, I believe. She didn't use deception except on herself, also.

I haven't seen uncertainone around for about a month. I miss her. I am sure she would be able to clear some things up for you as she is very wise in the ways of the waywards.

BW (me) & FWH both over half a century; married several decades; children
d-day 3/10; LTA (7 years?)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak." ~ Homer Simpson

posts: 15429   ·   registered: Nov. 5th, 2010   ·   location: The Great White North USA
id 5961143
default

Dark Inertia ( member #30727) posted at 1:20 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

I have not read this thread in completion. I find it to be quite triggery and depressing. It plays on my insecurities. I did read some of it to my SO, who found you (Lost) to be quite contradictory in your words and actions. With that being said my opinions are limited to the tidbits I have read.

I think Sister Milkshake hit a huge nail on the head when she said that you are in love with the idea of being in love. The way you described your feelings for this MoW from the past, being devastated, at a loss.... it seems you feel attraction for someone rarely, but when you do it hits hard and fast.

Honestly, I think these extreme emotions have to do with some of what I have read on your lifestyle.

In my experience a lot of self proclaimed nerds and gamers tend to live a more isolated life and have a bit more difficulty in relating to the average person. When you are able to relate to someone it is practically a God send. It is not surprising to me that someone would meet another of the opposite sex, find loads in common, and think it is a star crossed love.

A scenario that goes something like this...

Oh! You play WoW, LoL, Everquest [insert any MMO here]?! So do I! What server are you on??

Starts a connection...

AHHH, you have read LoTR, Hobbit, Wheel of Time, Salvatore, etc. etc... I have the entire Dragonlance collection...

sparks fly..

You RP, LARP, Tabletop, what have you?! I have been doing that since the womb...

which leads to...

why did you find comfort in these hobbies? what was your childhood like? what did you see, feel, experience?

And when two people have similar life experiences they are able to relate, until every little thing equates into this magical friendship and then

What you feel this way about babies/politics/religion? OMG, you're my fucking soul mate!!

Generally, if you were only *kind of* physically attracted to the person before, the sparks would sure as hell be flying now.

In all honesty I can go to work, or jump on a WoW server right now and meet someone who has the potential to be the love of my life.

All it takes is nurturing, fostering, caring for that relationship. Which... as everyone has duly noted... is what you are doing with the other woman and not your wife.

This OW is not very special. She really could have been anyone. She could have been me, or a married woman, that girl at Con... but is usually the person with poor enough boundaries to fall for a married man.

Claiming you as her BFF? You're married. She knew you were married. That is screaming in your face lack of boundaries. She can be the peachiest girl on the planet, she still has little respect for herself and other women to cross a line with a married man.

You wife is the special one. You chose her to spend your life with.

Sorry, I don't know where I am going with all this... I see so much of this pattern in the supposed "nerd" community, and I really strongly feel caving to emotions has a lot to do with their introverted nature.

Or I could be completely wrong, and you could totally disregard my post. :)

[This message edited by Dark Inertia at 7:22 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

posts: 1842   ·   registered: Jan. 10th, 2011   ·   location: The Ohio
id 5961198
default

WarpSpeed ( member #32051) posted at 2:21 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Is there a polite way to say s*** s*** d******** d**?

I'm hoping you can start focusing on taking some Actions that show your wife is a priority in your life. Not doing things because "she might leave anyhow" is weak and uncommitted. She deserves better than that.

Me: BS (58) Her: fWW (57)Married 28 years
2 awesome sons graduated college in 2015
She left Jan 2010, She filed Mar 2010, Div final May 2010, She shared it was an A July 2010, Remarried Aug 2010

posts: 1536   ·   registered: May. 2nd, 2011   ·   location: Dallas
id 5961290
default

aesir ( member #17210) posted at 3:35 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

It's interesting. I was already familiar with the basic ideas since BW had read it before and has been reading this site for awhile, but I definitely have run across some interesting stuff. I wish this research was more widely available to MCs and ICs and that society had a more realistic view of affairs. I actually think people getting into marriages could use this book, to be honest.

Sadly, it is widely available in any bookstore. Just that there are a lot of poorly informed people with credentials out there. No wonder they call it a practice.

SisterMilkShake said something that made me think.

Do any of these characteristics seem familiar to you?

• Usually gregarious and sociable. Likes to be with people. Seems to get energy from others.

• Is demonstrative. Can have a flair for the dramatic.

• Feelings tend to go up and down. Never quite sure what you are going to get from this person.

• Doesn’t think too deeply. Flits along the surface of life. Shies away from “in-depth” conversations.

• Is easily impressed and latches on to that which is “hot” at the moment.

• Can be manipulative. Knows how to get what he thinks he wants from others.

• Responds quickly and intensely to most things around him. Dives into whatever it is before him. Parents may have exhibited the same characteristics.

• Values and standards may shift. Never sure what he really believes or where he is going to ‘hang his hat.’

• Can be very seductive, flirtatious and a tease. Likes to be around those of the opposite sex.

• Seductive capricious behavior covers inner emptiness and contradictory feelings.

[This message edited by aesir at 9:43 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.

posts: 14924   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2007   ·   location: Winnipeg
id 5961438
default

aesir ( member #17210) posted at 3:42 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Sorry, double post.

[This message edited by aesir at 9:43 PM, August 7th (Tuesday)]

Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.

posts: 14924   ·   registered: Nov. 29th, 2007   ·   location: Winnipeg
id 5961452
default

Winter Snow ( member #24185) posted at 3:43 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

Lost...dude....that is one heck of a relationship history. In a nutshell:

1. At 15, an online affair with a 35 year old MW

2. At 17, an online affair with a 25 year old MW.

3. At 17 began an online relationship with a 15 year old, now your wife.

4. At 32 an affair with a 23 year old and wanting to explore a poly relationship.

I sort of see where all your relationship confusion comes in. From my perspective, I don't know if I would classify any of these as 'normal', as much as any relationship is normal!

I know it has been mentioned, but you really need to find a good IC. Someone that can and has dealt with non-traditional relationships such as yours. Don't know where you are located, but it might take some time to find someone suited to your history.

Good work on the NJF. I know you have a hard time seeing the deceit in what you did because you were upfront about *most* of what you did. But where it comes to play in your situation is that you let your wife into the physical world (is it OK if I sit by OW etc. ) but you did not let her in your mental world. Why you wanted those things and how they made you feel is where you deceived your BW. Maybe a little different than the book from the examples standpoint, but in reality it is the same. You told more of the truth than most WS's do, but you were still holding back some of it!

I don't think you want to hurt anyone and you thought if you could be poly-amorous you could avoid any hurt. 2nd MW hurt you....therefore you want to avoid hurting OW. Infidelity sucks because everyone gets hurt. You can't avoid it. You are in the position (by your own choice) of having to decide who gets the brunt of the hurt.

Tell OW that you want nothing to do with her ever again...she will be hurt....a hurt that you experienced before.

Tell your BW that you can't give up OW and she divorces you. She is hurt like you can't even begin to know. Also, you are hurt - more than you probably know.

It sucks.

I know you haven't had time to go back and read through this thread again but what the very helpful WS crew is telling you is this:

1. If you want to stay married, commit today to doing whatever work it takes to make that happen. Give up OW for good and forever.

or...

2. Let your BW go....AND let OW go. Spend some time working on yourself before you decide to ever enter another relationship. You have some things to work out, it will take lots of time and soul searching.

Sorry this is so long, for some reason this whole thing has struck a nerve with me.

fleury.

What next?

posts: 450   ·   registered: May. 29th, 2009
id 5961453
default

wincings_sparkle ( member #27129) posted at 4:03 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

1. At 15, an online affair with a 35 year old MW

2. At 17, an online affair with a 25 year old MW.

This is abuse. You were a child that was abused by older women. Hello people! These were adult women that were cyber-abusing a child. We call women like that PEDOPHILES. Really.

Lost, you need to understand that what those women did to you was not right, illegal and fucked up.

You going after a younger woman now is not surprising. It's like repeating what was done to you.

This is something that you are going to have to face head on and without flinching.

Fact: You were a victim of sexual abuse. Those older women abused you.

"When you hold resentment toward another, you are bound to that person or condition by an emotional link that is stronger than steel. Forgiveness is the only way to dissolve that link and get free."
- Catherine Ponder
Me-FWW. BH-wincing_at_light

posts: 1615   ·   registered: Jan. 8th, 2010
id 5961476
default

ungracie ( member #31901) posted at 5:09 AM on Wednesday, August 8th, 2012

I agree with Wincing. It is one of my new pet peeves. How society views what a woman does vs a man. Your first two "affairs" were in fact sexual abuse. We (collectively) need to start holding women to the same standard men are. I believe that women outnumber men who cross work boundaries more often. Heck, I have even watched Dr Drew address this one night, one male panelist pointed out the shit that women get away with saying and the flirting, that would get him FIRED. The female panelist said "men who flirt at work are gross, when a woman does it, we are sexy". Then she giggled.

If you are in IC, those first two sexually abusive relationships need to be addressed. You suffered emotional abuse as well. I urge you to work on this ASAP.

Me:50BS
married 26 years
together for 29 years
DDay:04/12/10 EA/PA
Working at R

The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering.
Ben Okri

posts: 1089   ·   registered: Apr. 17th, 2011   ·   location: canada
id 5961534
This Topic is Archived
Cookies on SurvivingInfidelity.com®

SurvivingInfidelity.com® uses cookies to enhance your visit to our website. This is a requirement for participants to login, post and use other features. Visitors may opt out, but the website will be less functional for you.

v.1.001.20260402b 2002-2026 SurvivingInfidelity.com® All Rights Reserved. • Privacy Policy