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..not meant to thread-jack but im curious about the comparison..

It's kind of difficult for me to actually find comparisons between porn and reading. I personally have never understood this argument. Many people use drugs as a form of escape. Many people cut themselves as a form of escape. Saying that "since men are visual creatures and enjoy porn as a form of escape, then since women read romance novels, BAM! That's women's porn! A-ha!" is kind of a non-sequitur to me. I can think of a whole lot of things that have a more relevant connection to porn than romance novels.

First of all, I have used porn, and I have found it to be visually stimulating. So I would say that porn is "women's porn" for me. Science backs me up. When hooked up to machines that measure bodily response to porn, men and women react with the same speed to pictures and movies of people having sex. The difference, then, isn't response per se, but the mind-body connection. Studies have also shown that images or simulations of sexual acts moves sperm into the urethra of male monkeys with no corresponding reaction in females. It also makes them likely to mate with anything that resembles a female of their species.

I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty that I have never experienced that after reading a romance novel. Ever. I've read many a high-brow foo foo book and gotten the exact same response after finishing it because for me, the reading is the enjoyment, not the sex. I've never turned down sex in favor of reading a romance novel, although I might have used reading any book as an excuse to get out of having sex. I have never masturbated while reading a romance novel, I've never read a romance novel while having sex, and while some characters might stay with me, they stay with me like, well, their characters. I wouldn't substitute sex with a random stranger or even with a boyfriend/husband as a means of relieving the sexual tension brought on by reading a romance novel. People who would do such a thing probably have some serious shiznit going on underneath the surface.

So to me, it's pretty much an apple versus orange comparison.

[This message edited by veritas at 11:28 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

I have a different take than the "Men are from Mars" porn vs. reading one. I use porn for porn. I use novels for escapism and intellectual games that are fun.

With romance novels, I read them more to see women's private lives represented than because I want FWH to be like any of the male leads. I like seeing how women see other women, and female authors present very compelling ideas about women's lives, how culture attempts to define women, and points of resistance that the individual puts up against this pigeonholing.

There’s always detail about what makes *this* woman unique that is meant to justify why she stands out of the masses of all other women to the man/ why she deserves his love and undivided attention, but really, its about wanting the opportunity to see ourselves through the perspective of the lover. I take it further, and have known others who love to read romance because they see it as all about learning to see yourself so lovingly and recognize how great you are, that you deserve to be well loved, and that if you’re so inclined, you can decide to become the woman you’ve always dreamed of being. Basically, about loving yourself for your own uniqueness and not needing to have someone else see you a certain way to feel that way about yourself.

I think that's why I love Kinsale's work: her women are individuals, not too concerned with following society's prescriptions as to who a woman "ought" to be.

I love the romance genre also because women go on adventures. It seems that in novels about women, one of the only times a woman gets to leave home and culture and a place of really being sure of who she is and should be is when she's not yet happy with the life she's built. Often, this is portrayed as the moment before she meets the man she will fall for. But regardless, her whole world and worldview is temporarily completely up for grabs. In choosing a man, she can choose who she'd like to become and how she'd like to live her life. That's what I love about the romance genre: that moment of having the power to define your life (which of course women have all the time in real life)...

To me, it's a romance of the self. It's seeing how magnificent one's life might be, and seeing that the power to opening any doorway to a new way of being, a new way of thinking, etc. is always right at hand, no matter how culture views women!

[This message edited by SwitchedOnLotus at 11:03 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

yeah! Ditto what SwitchedOn & veritas said

Well, to me, porn is something to which you masturbate. Romance novels are not something to which I masturbate. There is certainly written porn, but that's alt.sex.stories.moderated type stuff. I think trying to make the comparison shows a lack of familiarity with either romance novels or porn, frankly.

I think there can be obsessive reading/collecting of romance novels, but it's more like comics fandom than anything else.

I like porn - actual porn - but I don't think I've ever known a woman to replace reality with romance novels the way men will replace reality with porn. By that, I mean that a woman who reads tons of romance novels may *wish* she could meet a guy like that, but she doesn't actually think that guys are like that. So, the fact that the men she meets do not resemble the imaginary ones that some (female) author invented for a book does not cause her to question whether or not the real men are normal. She knows they are, even if she's disappointed by that fact.

With porn, unfortunately, I think that because there are actors involved but we're supposed to pretend like they're *not* acting but instead are having actual orgasms and enjoying themselves, men are more likely (particularly less experienced men) to imagine they're seeing actual female sexual response portrayed, and then when real life females turn out to be nothing like porn actresses, they think there's something abnormal about the real women. I doubt they'd take the same impression away if their porn consumption was confined to written porn or hentai or something that didn't blur the line by having actual human bodies involved. I've never met a guy who thought tentacle rape (a common theme for hentai back in the days when I was in the dating pool) was something that was commonly enjoyed, but I have met guys who thought anal was something that was entered into (heh) a lot more quickly in a typical relationship than it really is, and think it's common for women to orgasm with no clitoral stimulation. I mean, getting your ideas about what sex is like from porn is like getting your ideas about what fighting is like from the WWE.

As I said the last time somanyyears asked this exact same question, I suggest he and other guys read some romance. And yes, I suggest women watch porn, even though I'm confident that there are way, way more women watching porn than there are men reading romance. You'd think with as much complaining as men do about women's sexual response combined with the assumption that romance novels are female porn would lead some enterprising lad to read a whole ton of romance. If you imagine it contains the key, why not check it out? It's reconnaissance, guys.

[This message edited by ladyvorkosigan at 11:51 AM, March 12th (Friday)]

Dianna Gabaldon! sigh i want a highlander too!

With porn, unfortunately, I think that because there are actors involved but we're supposed to pretend like they're *not* acting but instead are having actual orgasms and enjoying themselves, men are more likely (particularly less experienced men) to imagine they're seeing actual female sexual response portrayed

This is probably what chafes me the most about strippers and porn use(no pun intended). Guys really think that women as a group enjoy what this one woman is enjoying. They are willing to suspend disbelief that this woman is interested in anything but their money. They actually believe that this woman (and therefore all women, by extension) enjoy those stupid porn positions. They don't take into account the fact that that one woman has an army of people armed with lube to keep her wet, and that she has an "orgasm" thinking about the money she's making. Heck, there's even a woman (or a man!) in the entourage to keep *the man* from losing interest in the whole deal!

Whereas myself, I know that Dash Riprock is not a real fellow, that he absolutely does not represent all men, and that the chances of me meeting him, particularly if he's in Regency England and I have neither a relic or a time machine, are pretty slim. There are many levels of reality that I would need to suspend to entertain such a notion.

I only got through like 40 pages of Outlander. It was really, really slow. I was also pretty young when I read it and couldn't appreciate the whole younger guy/older woman thing. She was really ahead of her time, Gabaldon was. Transgressive.

thanks Glinda,

im not at all offended by your frankness..

and i am also totally impressed with the responses..my point being that i don't read romance novels, not because i don't like romance, i do, i do!

..i also never bothered with porn, ..been to a few stags where they popped one into the video machine, but i was more interested in the full-house i was holding than in the porn..

..no doubt, porn and masturbating go 'hand in hand'

for some.. couples use it for..lots of reasons and ways

..i don't support the porn industry in any way because i know that there are terrible abuses in the 'business'

..i admit openly to not understanding women at all, given the experience ive been living through these last 10 months..

my wife grew up on a diet of romance novels..her aunt bought them by the dozen and passed them all on to my wife (to be)

..ok ..i get that reading is not watching ..

so, the movie DonJuan DeMarco

.. a romance novel on video..

if given the choice of watching johnny depp or a porn flick..??

women would choose...

men would choose...

but WHY?.. simply Venus/ Mars

..my wife loves romance.. but she still went out and behaved like a porn star..

..ya ya..it gets complicated now, doesn't it.. so many little and big reasons for accounting for one's 'individual' sexual makeup..

what excites us, gets the blood flowing, turns our sexual crank..

what were her expectations?

what were mine?

i guess the term 'Mind Candy' got me to thinking about porn as mind candy for guys.. and so .. the comparison question

certainly, the social and sexual implications of porn in the forefront of todays society, with such easy access, are way more profound than the effect on the social fabric of the romance novels to which we are referring.

i concede to the financial rewards gained in the film and publishing industries for both..

and yes, lady V..i am not very familiar with either and each of our own expectations of one's sexual response to assorted stimuli is at the root of my question

..the romance novel or movie as a sexual stimulant yes, no.. geared to Venus and

..the porn movie.. geared to Mars??

i am ONLY comparing them as mind candy .. as being gender specific.. with lots of exceptions to the rule, im sure

my hat's off to all the posters.. thanks veritas, SOL,

LadyV.. i'm a big fan of your unique posts..

give me time.. i've still got much to learn about these creatures we call 'women' ..

u r a complicated lot..

and i mean that in a good way

peace, love and joy to all who find themselves here.

smy... ps to lady v.. i dont recall asking about romance novels prior.. but i've been forgetting or trying to forget lots lately so i apologize for my redundancy.

[This message edited by somanyyears at 2:27 PM, March 12th (Friday)]

In my opinion pornography is explicit sexual matter used for the purpose of sexual or erotic gratification. Whether it is visual porno or written porno, the purpose is the same. Whether someone masturbates (or not) to the material does not change the definition. It is still porn.

I only got through like 40 pages of Outlander. It was really, really slow.

Actually I agree with this statement. The first 50 pages or so (when she's in the WWII side of the story) drags. But boy oh BOY does it pick up after that!

so, the movie DonJuan DeMarco

.. a romance novel on video..

if given the choice of watching johnny depp or a porn flick..??

women would choose...

men would choose...

but WHY?.. simply Venus/ Mars

It depends. I liked Don Juan de Marco, and I would much prefer to watch the movie because of the interesting psychological aspect and Brando relationship, but personally I find Johnny Depp to be very scruffy looking, scrawny, and attractive only because of his personality. Maybe the Mars/Venus difference is that I can watch a movie with an attractive person without entertaining sexual thoughts. Because I'm not getting your comparisons at all.

To me, collecting/reading romance novels is more akin to those people who re-enact Civil War or Renaissance times than porn. Having viewed a lot of porn and read a lot of romance novels in addition to erotica (written porn) I can tell you that there is a difference between all 3. To a man they might be all the same, but I can assure you that women experience them all differently.

I have read lots of romance novels in my long life.

Originally, they were light reading, girlish tugs at your heartstrings and budding, innocent sexuality.

Today, though, I find that many are very graphic with needless pages of detailed sex scenes. I'd rather read a story with a good plot than one with those erotic filler pages. Yes, I consider those pages to be erotica (and I've seen some porn movies). JMO

E.Nikki: I found a link that may offer you what you are looking for.

http://www.historicalromancewriters.com/

[This message edited by looking forward at 9:58 PM, March 12th (Friday)]

I'd rather read a story with a good plot than one with those erotic filler pages. Yes, I consider those pages to be erotica (and I've seen some porn movies). JMO

I noticed this about myself a long time ago. I won't throw out a book with filler sex scenes but I do skim over them -- mainly to see if there's some dialogue pertinent to the plot. If there's no plot without the sex scenes, that author goes in my banned list. Or, at least, into my erotica list Even so, I find most erotica boring without a subtext. There's only so many ways you can say penis and vagina and describe the act; after a while, it just sounds like your thesaurus wrote the scene. And you gets no points from me if you use either the words meat or titty.

I'd rather read a story with a good plot than one with those erotic filler pages.

This is EXACTLY why I had to stop reading Laurel Hamilton's Anita Blake series. The storyline was fantastic but after the 5th or 6th book, it became more porn than plot.

I stopped collecting her books on that reason alone.

If there's no subtext, there's no point in reading the book.

(I'm a reader who genuinely likes to READ!!)

..clearly, romance novels are not in any way comparable to porn..

..i suggest however, that each stands alone as 'mind candy' for those who consume either..

..that some women choose a romance novel to escape and perhaps be sexually stimulated/aroused by the sexual tension and actions described in the text..

..compared in the sense that some men choose to watch a porn video and perhaps be stimulated/aroused..

and neither party may do anything about it, sexually..

..just enjoy it for the 'mind candy' that it is..

..that's my comparison..

i'm not putting the romance novel down or any of those who choose to read them, or the myriad of reasons for doing so..

what constitutes 'mind candy'

for women and for men??

..i dont read hear that husbands are shocked to find out their wives are 'addicted' to romance novels..

but, i have read many stories of wives shocked and feel betrayed upon finding out their husbands are 'addicted' to watching porn..

are there comparisons to be made here??

consider, simply based on time invested in the solitary act of reading a 400 page romance novel vs. watching the porn on a TV..

1 novel= 5,6,7 hours to read..

vs. 5,6,7 hours watching porn

comparisons??? who is addicted?

H to W: 'you've been reading that romance novel all day'...yada yada yada..

W to H: 'you've been watching porn all day'..blah blah blah..

comparisons ??

..is the stimulation healthy for you?

..when does the time invested become too much time?

smy

I looove romance novels, bodice rippers, Harlequin BS.. all of them.

I loved Lavyrle Spencer books when I was younger and I kept them all. I recently re-read a few. She wrote women so weak IMO.

I love Emily Giffin, Fern Michaels and Debbie Macomber.

The best set trilogy books is by Fern Michaels The sisterhood series about a group of women vigillantes(sp) who right wrongs with a little romance and intrigue. I cant put them down.

I guess I'm just wondering why reading for pleasure is different when done by women than it is when done by men.

So when women read for pleasure it's like when men watch pornography. Why isn't women reading for pleasure like men reading for pleasure?

Perhaps it's because I read for pleasure *constantly*, as does my husband and as does everyone I've ever been been friends with, male or female, or dated. My husband and I are on a kick with one of our favorite fantasy authors right now. Our heads are stuck in our e-books 3 hours a night. If we didn't have a kid, that'd be more like 7 hours.

It doesn't matter what I'm reading. I look and behave no differently, no matter what I'm reading. I'm not sure why it should be comparable to porn when I'm reading romance but not when I'm reading something else. All light fiction is escapist reading.

I also think you're missing the fact that a lot of women *watch actual porn*. And a lot of men read as a leisure activity. If you're also suggesting that when men read comic books, it's like they're watching porn, then I can kind of start to see the point that like I said earlier, there can be compulsive and unhealthy patterns of usage of these things, sure. I'd start adding in video games, watching sports, other stuff, too. Internet use, watching tv. There is an appropriate amount of escapism to pursue, no matter the avenue.

If you're trying to come up with arguments for why your wife should read less, I don't think you have to try to argue that it's like porn. I mean, you've just said upthread that you are neither a porn consumer nor a romance reader, and perhaps not a reader at all? If your wife is pursuing an isolating leisure activity to the detriment of the family, it doesn't have to equate to pornography to be problematic. If she was training obsessively for marathons to the detriment of the family you'd be right to launch a complaint.

All I can say is that as a person who has watched a lot of porn, read a lot of porn, read a *lot* of fiction, period, and read a lot of romance fiction in particular...the uses to which I put pornography are entirely different than the uses to which I put fiction. Porn is to wank, or for the wank bank. That's why I say it's for masturbation. You wank to it or you put it in the wank bank for future use. That's not why I read any fiction, romance or any other. Why would I? I have porn, and it's free.

Sure, there's a segment of the fiction market that is *erotica*, but it probably accounts for less than 15% of the market. I don't think LKH has ever been a *romance* writer. For her non-shitty first five or six books she was writing detective horror fiction. 20 pages of sex in a 350 pg book doesn't make something romance, and the first three books or so I don't think there was even any kissing. Now she's just mortifyingly bad erotica. It's like somebody sent my Aunt Earline to a BDSM play party in the midwest in 1998 and she decided to write 15 disgusting books about it.

It *does* kind of amuse me with LKH that the "dames" in her books (whether you're talking AB or MG) are distinguished by coloring and nothing else. If I picked up a really bad mid century noir novel I'd expect to see the dames (this time female) being distinguished by nothing but their coloring (a blond, a brunette, and a redhead - isn't that PLENTY OF INFORMATION to let you understand the character? All you need to know!) and perhaps race depending upon how outre the author was. So it's hilarious to me to pick up her books with *her* noir detective and *her* dames, who are all male, and are just an assortment of color schemes. You get into the Merry Gentry's and suddenly she discovers that you can easily *triple* the number of dames you're juggling at a single time if you add concentric irises and hair and skin colors not found in nature. That guy with the blue/dark blue concentric irises and the light blue skin is a totally different character than the one with the blue/dark blue concentric irises and the *midnight blue* skin. Eventually I had to admit she wasn't offering meta commentary on the genre and was really just the terrible writer she appeared to be.

[This message edited by ladyvorkosigan at 5:45 AM, March 13th (Saturday)]

if given the choice of watching johnny depp or a porn flick..??

women would choose...

men would choose...

Most days, I'd choose porn. I'm not obsessed with it, but it can be a great and fast way to relax.

So about choosing Depp or porn - it depends on whether I want to think or masturbate. If I'm after an o, I'll find a porn flick that sets one of my predilections spinning. I don't like Johnny Depp, so that movie wouldn't be of much interest to me sexually - it'd be more about who the female lead is and what kind of woman's life issues the film addresses. Depp's character might do nothing more than get in the way of my enjoying a discussion of being a woman in this culture that assumes there's one key to "what (all) women are like" or "What (all) women want." Women are people, like men. That's why when a stereotype is used to help someone understand an individual person, it quite possibly won't fit and won't describe the complex individualistic blend they're observing. It's much more useful to take people on a case-by-case basis rather than expecting to understand how they function based on basic observable features such as sex.

I bought into stereotypes about how men were concerning sex for a long time, and thought that my spouse should be rabid for sex any time I decided I wanted it, which was almost all the time. I thought men should want sex all the time, round the clock, and that if a man didn't want it all the time, he was obviously getting sex from someone else. I was wrong: men have other aspects to their character when it comes to sex drive. I was floored to learn that men have an emotional component to sex lives!!

I think that there is a sort of masculine equivalent to the romance genre, and it's the action genre. If you look at it, it's a similar formula: the individual is singled out from all the others of their sex because they are exceptional and uniquely gifted in some way. Their everyday life is upset and sometimes destroyed so that they can go on a quest/journey/mission and learn quite a bit more about themselves, their personal resources, and their place and power in the social structure of the world around them. The thing that kills me about the masculine romance/action movie is that often, the female love interest has to be killed by a villain to set off this epic quest. The loss of the female love interest haunts the hero and the viewer, and his feelings of loss are expressed in bullets, punches, and explosions, culminating in the obliteration or coming to terms in some way with the villain and his own personal loss.

[This message edited by SwitchedOnLotus at 3:30 PM, March 13th (Saturday)]

H to W: 'you've been reading that romance novel all day'...yada yada yada..

W to H: 'you've been watching porn all day'..blah blah blah..

You've been on WoW all day. You've been smoking weed all day. You've been doing crack all day. You've been doing whatever all day.

If your extracurricular activities interfere with your activities of daily living, then you have an addiction. However, this does not mean that the source of your addiction is necessarily the cause of your addiction.

I was reading just the other day that a man married his pillow. Does that mean that pillows are therefore addictive substances? Since I know several people who use their pillows to prop their heads up and for no other purpose, I would argue that it isn't the pillow that is addictive, but the man who has an obsessive personality.

Now, that is not to say that there aren't certain substances that have inherently addictive qualities. I have yet to hear of someone who uses heroin socially.

Besides which, you are mixing several different issues here. Addiction -- porn -- not porn -- if your wife is spending so many hours a day reading romance novels, then she obviously has an addiction. And if her addiction is to something that many people enjoy as a hobby, then the hobby is not the problem.

Booyah Veritas! Exactly.... When is something a problem? When it's a problem!

A person might read 15 hours a day for their job, another person might read 15 hours a day blowing off their job. Pick an activity, any activity... and it can go in the pos., netural, or neg. column depending on that person, the people around them, and changing situations over time.

Anyone here ever read "Susie is a Social Broccoli User?" I can never remember the whole thing but it goes along like this:

"Susie is a social broccoli user. She doesn't bring her own broccoli to parties in case the hostess is not serving her brand of broccoli, or even worse, not serving broccoli at all. She doesn't check before she goes to bed at night that she has enough broccoli in the morning. She doesn't go to the store to stock up on broccoli "just in case", nor create little stashes of broccoli throughout the house or outside to make sure that "in an emergency" she is never without. When Susie gets paid she doesn't buy her broccoli first and then figure out how much left she has to buy other things. While Susie will think about broccoli from time to time, she doesn't keep track of when the last time she had it was, nor plan/dream about when she will have it next. Susie doesn't create, follow, or break rules as to when she can use broccoli. While Susie will occasionally use broccoli alone, she never feels the need to hide her broccoli use or only use it around others who also use broccoli. Susie never mocks non broccoli users or becomes offended when someone turns down her offer of broccoli".... etc.

On the pillow topic though... can I marry mine???? Puh-puh-puh-pleeeeease?

CC

>^..^<