SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks for the apology.

Interestingly enough- I never said my WH is the poster-child for wayward spouses.

I agree with SamanthaBaker. My WH's actions are very similar to her WH. We are doing tge excercises in His Needs, Her Needs. My WH likes the book and so do I.

His top needs are affection and sexual fulfillment. Mine are honesty/openess and domestic support. Neither of us pre-A were meeting the others needs. We were meeting our own needs. We both tried to tell the other what we needed but neither of us did it in a way that was heard.

After discovering our top needs we both focused on meeting those needs. Pre-a we had sex about 3 or 4 times a month. He was always ready to go but my needs weren't being meant so I didn't feel a connection. Sex was really good when we would do it, but it was just sex. I hadn't felt connected in years. After the A we had HB and then we started looking at our needs and it's so fulfilling to meet his needs...and vice versa. I've been giving him the affection and afirmation which he really needs. This has also made ME want sex a lot more. We had made love and had sex more times this year than we have in a few years. Like 150 times! It's more intimate now, there's holding and caressing, lots of kissing, talking and giggling. I'm in competition with myself to be better at meeting WH needs than I did in the past...I like to win :)

My suggestion is to figure out hers/ your needs and then do everything you can to meet them daily. It sounds like she's missing an intimate connection with you.

If all else fails you can always provide a body massage, with no sex strings. Scented candles, soft music, and make it clear to her that it is not for you to get laid. Touch can be very powerful.

Ok...I'm just rambling

I want to thank everyone who posted a suggestion. We bought the Couple Skills book a while back but have really stopped using it or following the steps. Maybe we should try the his needs/her needs or the five love languages book or both. Sometimes I feel I am the only one making the effort to improve our relationship. Its more like 65/35, or at least it feels like that sometimes. I guess I need to stop thinking doing chores is my way of showing how much I love her?

So in his mind he was showing his love to me by doing the laundry, dishes, etc. and telling me how great the clean bathroom looks. But because my languages are Quality Time and Touch, instead of hearing his profession of love, I was thinking: "good for him helping to clean up his own messes and noticing that I cleaned up too!"

I think maybe your right and I need to connect with her emotionally. @SamanthaBaker

For me? My need is intimate conversation. I HAVE to talk to my husband more than "Hey how was your day" in order to feel an emotional connection with him.

Any tips? I often feel our conversations are like this or we talk about family drama or what made her unhappy that day.

My reasoning is your cooking for me to make me happy let me softly rub your behind to arouse you to make you happy.

Ahhh..but just because rubbing her behind would be something that makes you happy (having your own behind rubbed or rubbing her behind) does not mean it makes her happy too.

It's real easy to love someone the way you want to be loved...the hard part is loving someone the way they want to be loved.

For me...I like to have help with the house, the kids, the chores...but not because it is my love language. It's because we are equal partners and should share the load in these matters. They are our responsibilities and you (my H) aren't doing me any favors by taking care of your/our responsibilities. You are (and I am) doing what you (I) should be doing.

What I love and makes me feel emotionally connected is to be shown I am thought about...I am special. Little love notes...or encouragement notes...or thank you notes. A phone call, text or an email just because. Flowers from a store or the yard. Taking care of me when I am sick...baby me. Plan a damn date night or weekend get away...childcare included. Ask about me when you know I have had a hard day or will have a hard day. Listen to me when I want to talk...and don't try to hurry the conversation along because you have to mow the lawn or watch a game. Ask me to dance in the middle of our livingroom. Surprise me by cooking dinner one night...and not the same damn dinner you make every time I have to ask you to make dinner!

Just show me I'm special...outside of the bedroom (and all things sexual). Make me feel like your girl...after all these years... show me that I'm still your girl.

For me as a BH, and my wife being the poster-girl for remorseful and committed WW, having sex with me every day for the 50+ days since Dday (since that is the topic of the post), what kind of man am I if I can't forgive her at some point? I refuse to be some vindictive, weak man. I understand my critical role in creating the shitty marriage we have had.

IMO, using that as a sole example, you are reinforcing the "Make things better with sex" attitude many F/WW have or had.

Your forgiveness of her should include her actions, not anchor on them. She can't un-fuck what she did, as fun as it is to try.

re: HopeOneDay, she needs to stop blaming you and start communicating honestly with how she feels and what she wants. Many BH have been where you are, and going with the trial & error method of trying to please your wife is going to fail.

Personally I think the His Needs/Her Needs book is not very good, but many people swear by it. If I were to recommend a different book it would be Not Just Friends or something with IMAGO style communication help.

She is basically setting you up to fail. She tells you what she wants, you do it, then she says it's not doing it for her.

It doesn't matter what you show or tell her, if she isn't willing to accept it then it's not going to succeed, ever.

Do you have requirements for R? You can make sex part of the reqs.

Because my W was abused as a child, it generally took significant (but pleasant) effort from both of us to get her to open up to pleasure. After decades of work, she was more open than ever before - and she used her openness on ow! I was angry, as you can imagine.

One of my reqs for R came under the heading of 'treat me better than ow'. Among the items under that were:

initiate sex sometimes

if she's on the edge between accepting or refusing sex, she has to be biased towards accepting it

she needs to open herself to enjoyment quickly

It's working nicely.

Among other things, your W can certainly realize that she's the one who thinks she's a piece of meat, not you, and she can change that belief and become a loving wife who enjoys sex with her H.

Of course she feels guilty, but for a relatively small part of the day, she can tell herself and act as if she's a great partner in general and in that mode she can enjoy sex and love.

It sounds to me like this problem ain't you; it's your W. MC is a good place to discuss this and set up the reqs.

She is basically setting you up to fail. She tells you what she wants, you do it, then she says it's not doing it for her.

Has she told you what she wants/needs? Has she given you specific examples?

Has she told you what she wants/needs? Has she given you specific examples?

Yes she has. It has jumped from one thing to another. First it was don't make her feel pressured and let her initiate, so I backed off. Then it was don't come from behind and grab her or grope her in front. Okay, stopped doing that. Then it was be more romantic and set up dates or spend quality without making her feel like she "owes" me. Did that, I have pretty much just shut down and have become almost ashamed of wanting sex. Almost cold to the fact she won't change.I almost to the point where I am just interested anymore, where if she did ask me I would just say, ummm not interested. Well I would not say that to her, but I would definitely be thinking that. Probably say I am tired or something. I just feel rejected I just want her to know what that feels like, very childish I know but its very frustrating being the only hamster in the cage on the wheel. She knows she is a big part of the problem its getting her to do something about it. I don't think its me anymore I have done my part and still do, but its like a car wreck you cant stop, its sad I want to help but its not up to me she has to want to make it a priority. I definitely think she has issues that were not apparent prior to us getting married, they stem from her feelings of neglect as a child and as an adolescenct. When we were dating I gave her loads of attention and affection, but since having kids and work became a part of our lives, I think she reverted to her feelings of neglect. But she is no longer a kid and must realize its up to her to fix her personal problems as no one else is going to make it their agenda.

Have you been consistent with the things she has asked for?

Listen...I'm not trying to tell you you are wrong here...I'm trying to give you advice based on my experience with this.

My H and I have had this exact conversation a number of times. I would want to talk about our sex life and my lack of enthusiasm about it. I would give him concrete examples of what I needed...hell I even left a sticky note out one time that said please use this to write me a love note and what does he write on it....here's your love note.

So...we would have this talk again...and he would say "I know I need to step up. I know I need to do more" and then would do a little more for a week, 2 weeks top and then stop. He was not and never has been consistent.

So have you been consistent? Have you made those things that she wants just a normal part of y'all's everyday lives? Not just something you do to get sex from you wife...but something you do to make your wife feel special? I know if I get a phonecall at work from my H just to say hey...he'll be making a pass at me that night. Which does not make me feel special at all...just used.

As a side note...I know you aren't the only responsible for making sure your sex life is positive but you're here so I'm just trying to give you ideas to help your side of that.

[This message edited by coastofsomewhere at 12:36 PM, May 16th (Wednesday)]

This is a good thread.

You asked...

Any tips? I often feel our conversations are like this or we talk about family drama or what made her unhappy that day.

This is something I'm working on too. H really likes to talk, and he's into a variety of subjects.

Because you're married, it can be easy to think you know everything about someone. So talking becomes "routine" and just about what happened that day (which is great, because it shows you care...). Also, it could mean that we only talk about "exciting" things that happen in our lives, and too often "exciting" can mean something negative. Maybe try approaching it with the mood that "I'm going to talk about something lighthearted, and I wonder if she'll laugh..." And then a whole different set of conversation topics might open up to you.

I try really hard not to think that I know everything about my H. Sure, we could talk about gripes about the house or how grungy our therapy center is or issues with my family. He likes movies, video games, sometimes talks about political issues or just plain world issues. So I try to talk about those kinds of things too, or... for instance, as a kid he watched Transformers. Sometimes we talk about shared memories as kids, i.e. what TV shows did you watch? Do they still make those candies xyz? Did you ever try those? But I never really watched Transformers. Well, they have it on Netflix, so (as silly as this is gonna sound) I've been "doing my research" and letting myself get into watching it, and it's been sparking some kind of fun conversations. Did you see that episode when _________? Man, Starscream acts like such a coward when he _________. And then we laugh together about it. "As two in love, do not get lost in looking at each other, but rather look out at the world together."

It might take some research. If you don't know anything about a particular topic (especially one your spouse is interested in), it can be kind of fun getting into it. Like when you were dating.

I know it can be hard. We're madhatters; during H's EA, he shared tea with her. That was our thing. I cannot drink tea with him anymore, and the topic can seriously trigger me. There might be topics that you find taboo because they are now associated with the A. Find ones that aren't that way. One of the only ways my H has concretely said I'm better than OW is, "She would never play video games. She'd whine the whole time that it was a waste of time." I said, "But we can play together?" And he said, "You're actually good at it. Unlike this other friend of mine..."

Conversation isn't one of my strengths (obviously, by the rambling nature of this post), but it feels good to know that we can talk in a way he can't with anyone else. You know what I mean? I think a big part of R is yearning to rebuild that feeling that you two can take on the world. I don't even know if it's possible when your trust is so broken. Maybe that's the saddest part of R. Mourning the loss of 'us'.

If you can, find something to laugh at together.

ETA: My advice might be lopsided because I am a madhatter. The work I am doing is both as a WS and a BS. I am not saying this is your responsibility to fix, as you're a BS, and she (the WS) needs to put in this kind of work and effort. Hopefully the talking isn't just to "meet a need" - hopefully it can add something happy for you, if you enjoy the conversation. Talk about things you enjoy talking about.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:12 PM, May 16th (Wednesday)]

I must have a completely different mindset. If you were a BW, would the advice be, do more laundry, rub his feet, tell him how awesome he is? I don't think so.

Your wife needs to pony up. If it means she needs more IC to address HER issue then so be it. To expect you to sacrifice or beg for one of the largest components of a marriage is ridiculous. Yes, I expect sex to be a part of my marriage. If my husband unilaterally decides that we are just roommates, then ungracie gotz alot of thinking to do. More than likely he will find himself posting an ad for another roommate. Especially after an affair. How insulting.

My H and I have had this exact conversation a number of times. I would want to talk about our sex life and my lack of enthusiasm about it. I would give him concrete examples of what I needed...hell I even left a sticky note out one time that said please use this to write me a love note and what does he write on it....here's your love note.

So...we would have this talk again...and he would say "I know I need to step up. I know I need to do more" and then would do a little more for a week, 2 weeks top and then stop. He was not and never has been consistent.

IMO, you should switch the roles around here and place his wife in the position your H is/was in instead of looking at it from the perspective of a woman not feeling interested in sex because her H isn't doing it right.

I do not think it is a failure on HOD's part. Having essentially been in the exact same situation - down to the "Come and pet and nibble on me while I'm doing dishes and get me set up to be in the mood later in the evening" to a couple weeks later "Don't grope me while I'm doing dishes" - it is not possible to be consistent in situation like that. After months and years of it, it breaks you down to basically expect failure but, you know, hope springs eternal. You look at all the flowers in the florist window, know that no matter which you pick, they'll be wrong, but after a brief debate and wrangle with personal shame you go in and buy some anyway.

I think this would be a good topic to deal with in MC if you have not brought it there. The problem is about communication, especially on her part, and a 3rd party to mediate it is invaluable - provided both spouses are willing and ready to do so.

I would still recommend His Needs, Her Needs, just to see if there is something you could both gain from that. She should read it too, because what I've found, for our marriage, we were both always trying to have our OWN needs met. Now that we're BOTH focusin on the others needs? The bonus is that our own needs are being met.

It does seem to me, from what you've written (though I understand we are only getting your POV) that you're doing more than she is. And that's hard to hash out.

Marriages IMO shouldn't be 50/50, but 100/100.

Are you guys in MC and IC??? If she's got FOO issues, she's got to work on that, no one can fix that, certainly not you. And it's unfair to place that burden on you too.

It also isn't unfair to tell you what her expectations are, then change them so often.

@sisoon, maybe I'm taking this wrong, and I know I'm a BS, not a wayward, but if someone made sex a requirement??? So.would.not.go.over.well. I spent too many years where sex was an expectation, and it nearly ruined us. Now that my FWWH has backed off, and he's putting my needs and feelings first??? He's getting sex a whole lot more than once a month like he was when he did treat me as a nameless whore. In fact, now??? I enjoy planning fun sex dates with him. Like last night, blindfolding him and feeding him fruit and body painting him with whipped cream and caramel. I've NEVER done that before, and that was all my idea. Shock and awe. I think I rocked his world. If that isn't how you meant it, I apologize, but that was how it came across to me when I read it. I'd never take kindly to a requirement like that.

Hope,

With what you say about yor W, I have a hard time seeing sex as the only problem in your R. (That's not meant as a criticism - any R with only one problem would sound pretty good to most of us, especially at 5 months.)

Usually, requirements for R include:

NC

transparency (you have access to her passwords and know where she is at all times)

honesty (she answers your questions when you ask them).

I think most of us also want or require WS to do IC, both to do MC, and BS to do IC.

Some of us have requirements that are specific to ourselves. For example, my W is required to arrange an evening out every week, beside the reqs WRT sex I wrote about above.

What are you doing in your R? What's happening in areas other than sex?

WRT carressing my W while cooking, hell, I stopped doing that looong ago. Around 2005, IIRC, after only 38 years of M.... Now I just put my hand on one of her hips. If she presses backwards, I'm home free; if she doesn't, I just rub her back or something. I'm amazed at how often she presses back. Men CAN learn....

Why is sex as a requirement deemed to be disrespectful to the spouse withholding it? Why is stating YOUR needs disrespectful? How is that any different than saying I need you to stop drinking?

I think its being respectful and giving the other person the opportunity to meet that need. Whether they choose to or not is on them. If they choose not to, then I as the one stating the need can decide what my dealbreakers are. I was honest, true to myself and respectful.

She had the affair. She should be doing everything possible to reassure you,to make you feel safe,secure,wanted,and loved. I think all of her excuses are just that...excuses.

What is she doing to show you she wants to R? Is she transparent? Open and honest? Accountable for her time away from you? Does she answer all of your questions without being angry and defensive? Are you sure there is NC?

I just don't see why you should keep bending over backwards and getting shot down. I understand it takes 2 to R..but she doesn't seem to be even halfway trying to meet your intimate needs.

Hi Hopeoneday.

Personally I think she feels guilty for what she did, and sex is a trigger for her since it can be easily associated with her actions. Has anyone had a WS admit to this or what types of reasons for this problem. And if so what did they do to help them get over this hump. Thanks in advance.

^^ sorry meant to quote instead of bold..

My 3 year d-day antiversary is this coming Saturday the 19th.

I do highly recommend the 5 love languages for both you and your FWW. How is your relationship outside of sex?

One of the things we did early on was, regardless of our mood, every day when we first saw each other we laid down together and just held each other for 10 minutes. That was so hard at first, he was consumed with shame and I was angry and my self esteem was shot but in retrospect it helped create intimacy without the pressure of sex. We eventually began to relax into one another and listen. Further along my FWH opened up about his guilt and shame, and about how worried he was about me, meaning...he didn't want to let his needs put me into a position where I would trigger or hurt more. It took me a VERY long time to comprehend and understand what he was telling me, I felt sort of rejected and baffled until I understood the depth of the remorse he felt.

We continued to work on our relationship outside of the bedroom and sex was the last thing we tackled together. I found that I needed to be more demonstrative in showing him I was ready and wanted him and that if I did trigger or become upset then that was an opportunity for more closeness for us because he would be there to get me through it.

He is over the hump now and I helped him by focusing on the things that he was doing good outside of our sex life, trying to show him that he was more than these horrible choices he had made to betray me. That he had value to me beyond the hurt I felt.

Personally I wasn't ready for true sexual intimacy with him, though I thought I was, for a very, very long time. In fact up until about six months ago I'd fight those feelings until the urge got the better of me.

It's not that way now. We are R and closer than we have ever been. Believe me it was a very long, very tough road but very worth it.

Again I suggest you focus on your intimate touches. Just holding hands in public, placing your hand on the small of her back while you're out, mentioning at least one thing each day that she's doing good, something you appreciate or love about her, hold her and the biggest suggestion I could offer you is to let her love you.

I had a hard time with that for a while, allowing myself to be vulnerable again. It all starts outside the bedroom...I promise you.

(edited for P.S.)

P.S. And if all that doesn't work, head to the book store and buy her

50 shades of Grey...lord have mercy..that book could get anyone in the mood.. In fact, buy all three books in the series..

[This message edited by Phoenix519 at 3:59 PM, May 16th (Wednesday)]

I don't want to t/j or turn this into a debate, but "required" sex is beyond disrespectful for me. Perhaps that's due to my past sexual abuse, the fact that my FWH is a SA, and that for years I was ignored except for sex. But "required" sex would end in me having his clothes thrown on the lawn and the locks changed.

There are ways, which I've clearly tried to help discuss in this thread, to go about getting that emotional intimacy to enhance sex. But when one says sex is a requirement, negative connotations of something forced, disregard for feelings comes across. Either that or an unpaid pimp/prostitute image.

StillGoing..like I said in one of my posts...I'm just giving advice on what I am experiencing. If it doesn't help...well no harm no foul...if it does...great.

I have almost no emotional connection/intimacy with my H and for me no emotional connection/intimacy = no desire to have sex with that person. Of course, I can't take credit for that concept since I believe there is one or two experts who have also mentioned it.

And I have tried. I have communicated my feelings and thoughts...I have given specific examples of what I would love since I realize my H isn't a mind reader...I have gone to IC (my H refuses any MC)...I have even dropped my needs and focused on giving my H mindblowing, creative sex hoping it would inspire me or him. And still...no emotional connection/intimacy and you want to know why...because my H does nothing to create it.

So sometimes, sometimes it isn't some hangup the W needs to get into IC and figure out. Sometimes its the H who refuses any type of intimacy...except physical!

Sex...the end all, be all. If a women isn't interested...then it most certainly must be her issue.

[This message edited by coastofsomewhere at 8:10 AM, May 17th (Thursday)]

And still...no emotional connection/intimacy and you want to know why...because my H does nothing to create it.

Well, that's exactly what I'm pointing out. You and HOD have the same problem, just coming from different directions. Because just like it isn't always the W, it isn't always the H. It's usually not ever the person putting in most of the effort.

Don't mean to say you're wrong, just that you and HOD are standing on the same square.