SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I was hoping that I might find out that relationship with OW was not what I had thought it was. That it wasn't a real friendship and based purely on using each other like my BW said. At very least, if that's what it really was, I wanted to know that.

It wasn't. You're the only one who saw it that way. Your wife knew it wasn't right, but you ignored her. You knew it wasn't right but you started down that slippery slope anyway.

The OW knew it wasn't right but she pursued you, just like you pursued her. She knew damn well you were married and still kept coming back for more. She wanted what you should have been giving your wife: affection andn closeness, intimacy. She never wanted to be just your friend. If she did, she would have held up a stop sign at some point when you started down the preverbial road to ruin.

[This message edited by Twitchy at 7:59 AM, July 31st (Tuesday)]

Twitchy...

The WS forum is for WS's to work through their feelings, whether you agree with them or not.

This is not a place for BS's to come swinging 2x4's in.

Please respect the forum guidelines/description or we will have to remove you from this forum.

Thank you.

I'm with the poster who suggested letting your wife go. If you really wanted to save your marriage, the OW would represent destruction, immorality, and evil in your mind's eye. She helped destroy your marriage and a relationship that began when you were teenagers.

If you REALLY want to save your marriage, send a NC letter that your wife approves and stick to it. She is not going to be able to heal until this woman is out of your lives.

My apologies. I'll step out.

Twitchy...

I hope you don't step away from this thread because you're giving great advice...just put the whacking board down

Yes, it is very reasonable for your wife to expect for you to have no fond memories of OW. If my FWH had any fond memories of OW I wouldn't have even entertained a thought of offering reconciliation with him.

This is what your OW did to your wife. She befriended your wife, sort of. Not a "good" friend according to your wife, because OW "wasn't nice" when you weren't around. Then this OW walked right up to your wife stabbed her in the heart, turned and smiled at you and you smiled back. This is how I imagine it feels to your BW because that is how I feel.

FWH didn't have fond feelings for OW when I had my d-day. However, he didn't really see OW's manipulativeness until we started MC, read "Not Just Friends", and had over a gazillion conversations with me.

I really appreciated the fact that FWH took full responsibility for the affair. As time went on though it was gratifying for me to see that FWH could see that he was manipulated somewhat, too. He is very prideful and doesn't like to have to admit that any person could manipulate him or "play" him.

It seems you may want to give OW a pass because of her age. Some of the best manipulators of men I have seen happen to be women in their 20's. OW knew exactly what she was doing all along. You didn't suddenly open her eyes when you gave her that example. Affairs don't "just happen". You both knew Exactly. What. You. Were. Doing.

I suggest whenever you have a thought of OW, you respond with a thought of your BW with a knife in her heart and OW gloating about it.

ETA: I also suggest you flip your whole situation around. You are now the BH and your BW is the WW. How would you expect your WW to view the OM? How would you feel about the OM?

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:02 AM, July 31st (Tuesday)]

Everytime you have a "fond memory" of OW, follow that up with a mental immage of your wife sobbing, cuz that what your doing.

Whenever I try this, I can't connect the two things in my head. I feel both fondness for the memory and guilt/pain for hurting my wife.

Try to understand that what you are fondly remembering about the OW is the emotional equivalent of twisting a knife in your BW's back. Try replacing that image of your wife sobbing with an image of you and OW, knife in hand, twisting the blade. When you make that connection, maybe you will see things differently, especially about OW.

If you really want to figure out what is important to you, try imagining both your wife and OW unconcious on train tracks, with a speeding train headed for them. You can throw a switch and decide who to save. It is a common psychology test question. Just to make it more interesting, realistic, and eliminate some of the foggy thinking about fate and meant to be crap, understand that if you choose to do nothing, the train is going to derail and crush both of them.

I still have feelings for OW.

I guess what I'm asking is - is it reasonable for my wife to ask me to have no fondness for my memories of OW at all? And how can I possibly get over OW? Six months of no contact didn't do anything. I just felt stuck in the moment that I last held her. I love my BW and I want to reconcile, but truthfully, the only reason I don't also want to be with OW is because it would hurt my BW. I suppose I should also mention that I met a polyamorous friend during all this and I worry that had some sort of influence on me. She turned an affair into actual polyamory somehow, but I also know my BW is different from my friend's husband. Any advice?

Is it reasonable for your wife to want to feel you ONLY have fondness for her? Yes.

Personally, I don't think that polyamory is the solution to your problem. But before you "blame" your wife for vetoing the lifestyle ... have you asked the OW if she would be happy sharing you with multiple women in the future?

lostone, if you have not yet read "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass, I would recommend that you do that. It will explain in detail (and much better than I ever could) why you and OW can't be friends.

I would also recommend that you go back and look at what you wrote in earlier posts about your interactions with OW. You said that when you talked about your BW having a problem with your relationship with OW, that she started to ask you what she could do to help you get over her. Do you see how that behavior is not right? If she really had your best interests at heart, she would have removed herself from your situation, not asked what she could do to insert herself even further. She is pandering to you and your emotions--which feels really good, right? Your BW, on the other hand, is upset and setting appropriate boundaries. She is making you see how your behavior is causing her pain, which in turn makes you feel guilty and ashamed--which feels really bad, right? Do you see the issue here?

Everybody who has said that you should go NC with the OW is exactly right. There are many WS out there who can give you tips about how to do it, if you really want to. I think you will also get a lot of good advise about how long it will take to get over these feelings, etc. You need to really want to do it, though. Your posts so far sound ambivalent--like you know that you should want to do it, but you are not sure that you actually do want to do it.

Your original question--is it reasonable for your BW to ask you to have no fond memories of OW? It doesn't matter if it is reasonable or not, it is her requirement for R. I think you will find that it is a necessary requirement, when you get your head in the right place. Those of us with remorseful WS's can tell you that our WS's look back at their OW and think "OMG, what was I thinking?"

Take the advice of the many WS's here. They can help you.

I feel awful about what I did to my BW. Really, really awful. But when I think of the good times when OW and I were close, somehow I can feel fondness toward those times even though I know being so close to OW hurt my wife deeply.

I guess what I'm asking is - is it reasonable for my wife to ask me to have no fondness for my memories of OW at all?

Yes, it's reasonable.

The way I described it to my husband, who immediately following the A was telling me that OW#1 was a "nice person" who was at a "bad place in her life" and "needed a friend", and he wished "nothing but the best in life" for the future, was as follows:

If you invited a friend of yours into our home and he raped me, would you have fond memories of your friendship with him? Would you say he's a nice person and that what he did was due to "being in a bad place" in his life? Would you wish him "nothing but the best" for his future? Or would the fact that he raped me ruin the entire friendship? Would the fact that I might be stronger afterward - learn self-defense, be more responsible about locking the door, more alert, etc. - make you think that the rape had been "useful" in some way, and make you glad it happened? What that (bad word) did to me was no different - the trauma was just psychological/emotional instead of physical. The scars are still there. My privacy, my trust, my safety, and my marriage with you were all violated against my will. You're the one who introduced her into our lives, but the minute she found out you were married she had the opportunity to do the right thing and she chose not to. She REPEATEDLY chose not to. She had ZERO respect for me as a wife, a mother, a woman, a fellow human being who was going to have immense hurt and pain caused by her actions.

Another way I've heard it described is to imagine you went out drinking with your friends, and on the way home that night you hit and killed a family on the highway. Would you be able to think fondly about what fun you and your buddies had at the bar earlier that night? Or would the knowledge that your drinking & fun that night led into the death of a family ruin the entire evening for you?

My feeling about it is, if he still has fond memories of her, then either he doesn't understand how badly the A hurt me, or he doesn't care. I'm not sure I'd be able to live with someone who thought it was okay to maintain fond memories of something that hurt me so immensely.

Does my fWH have the amount of dislike/disgust for the OW that I consider ideal? No. And in our situation it's complicated by the fact that long ago he was once an OM, so it also involves feelings toward himself. But what's important to me is his feelings are moving in that direction over time (we're 7 months out since D-day #1, 4 months out since the A "actually" ended) and he no longer sees the OW as some sort of innocent angel who was just looking for a good friend. "Friends" don't help you ruin your marriage.

I really hoped that I'd see her in a different light and might see her how BW sees her.

It helps my fWH understand sometimes if I ask him to reverse the situation, and imagine ME doing (whatever action) with my ex-boyfriend who he hates with a passion.

That usually does the trick for him. But you have to actually imagine it - feel it - experience it - picture it.....not just think about it in a logical/unemotional way.

But, for example, I wanted to see if she saw me as I really am versus a projection of me and so I asked open-ended questions of BW, OW, and two friends to get a sense of how people saw me.

Asking someone who is willing to be deceptive, immoral and dishonest with you....what they think of you....may not be the best idea. I informed fWH of this in no uncertain words when he suggested that I ask OW#1 (she and I were emailing at the time, post A) what she saw in him so I could get a different perspective. Terrible idea.

Also, what difference should it make how the OW "sees you"? It seems like this would simply be a way to continue the A, if you decide that the way SHE sees you is the way that you really ARE, because it completes the old cliche of "my wife doesn't understaaaaand me, but yoooooouuuu do".

I guess I see OW as someone who was confused like I was. I don't think she realized what was happening or intended it.

Unless she was unconscious or you forced her against her will....she realized what was happening and she intended it. She chose to do each of the things she did.

To say otherwise is simply an effort to allow you to keep thinking of her in a positive, "innocent" light. You need to work on really understanding that she is responsible for her choices in this situation. Once you really understand that her participation in the A was not due to "confusion" or "friendship", perhaps it will help with the whole "fond feelings" issue.

I really wish you the best of luck - I think it's great that you're on SI and are willing to ask questions and get into discussions. I really hope you get moving in the right direction, best of luck to you!!

[This message edited by MFC2011 at 9:46 AM, July 31st (Tuesday)]

Good for you for sticking with this. Please go NC with OW, including an appropriate NC letter that your wife approves. You might consider reading in JFO to better understand how the BS feels. Good luck.

[This message edited by sudra at 10:09 AM, July 31st (Tuesday)]

All I'm seeing is that you are, indeed, acting as if your wife is your mother. You relied on her speaking up to make you create boundaries. Then you asked for permission for polyamory, which was denied, and you apparently sulked a bit. When she cries, you trigger. When she wants to leave, you panic. You and the OW then do the kindergarten equivalent of two bored kids: "What do you want to do?" "I dunno. What do YOU want to do?" Neither you nor the OW are acting mature enough to make a decision -- leaving your betrayed wife to once again make decisions.

You haven't grown up. Get back to IC and figure out your family of origin issues and how they've stunted your emotional progression.

Until you've done this, let your wife go and don't take on any new relationships, because this pattern of behavior is going to follow you for the rest of your life until you get it sorted out.

I'd also suggest you avoid the OW at all costs from now until the day you die, because she doesn't love you. If she did, she would never, ever have participated in this. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that you don't love her, either, or else you'd never have dragged her into your drama. You and the OW have both been acting like selfish children and only been in it for the feel-good moments. That's not love.

If you want to see love in act, go back and list everything your wife has said and done since this started. She advised, she warned, she waited, and finally she decided to stop giving YOU her love and start loving HERSELF instead -- no matter how badly it hurts.

That's love.

Get to IC and heal that little boy inside of you so he can experience real love someday.

Unfortuantely, you sound like you are still in the fog of your A. Along with the fog comes continued idealization and adoration of the AP/OW. You and your BW both have decisions to make, she's not the only one, however, if you don't make genuine efforts to redirect your thoughts and feelings back to your marriage, than it is doomed to further failure and pain. You care clearly struggling with your feelings for both of these women, but wanting to keep them both invo,ved is selfish and destructive to everyone involved. If you honestly think you want a life with OW, then let your wife go and move on. But you can't have both. Ever.

Lost One:

Seems you are having trouble empathizing with your wife. As many of us have stated on this site, until you have been touched by infidelity you really can't understand it. Not trying to be harsh here, to this day I do not believe my WH understands the way I feel.

Can I suggest that instead of seeing your Wife in your mind as a victim and crying, picture her moving on with someone else. Picture her happy with another man. Is this something you can deal with? Does it hurt you to think of her marrying someone else? If it does, go with this for a while when those feels for the OW pop up and see if it helps.

Wishing your heart some peace..

Stepped back in with out the lumber.

My feeling about it is, if he still has fond memories of her, then either he doesn't understand how badly the A hurt me, or he doesn't care. I'm not sure I'd be able to live with someone who thought it was okay to maintain fond memories of something that hurt me so immensely.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

[This message edited by Twitchy at 11:37 AM, July 31st (Tuesday)]

I wish I could go back in time and listen to my wife's heartfelt concerns and address them. I wish I had scaled things back when she asked me to and not gotten so close. I don't know what to do now.

Respectfully, lost, you do know…you just realize it will cause you some pain, and you are not willing to do it, even though it is causing your wife even worse pain.

I was hoping that I might find out that relationship with OW was not what I had thought it was. That it wasn't a real friendship and based purely on using each other like my BW said.

Friendships often bolster our self esteem, so do affairs. So many “just friends” careen down that slippery slope due to that fact. But friends don’t help us destroy ourselves and our marriages. If you were hoping to go back and not feel good again, that isn’t going to happen this early on. I agree with your wife that you are using each other to prop up your self esteem, but yes, that is bound to feel good.

You’re addicted to the idea of her. Would you tell a drug addict to try some heroin to make sure it wasn’t what he thought it was?

You are losing YOURSELF, your integrity and sense of control over this. Nothing is worth that. If you can’t do this for your wife, fine, but don’t run back to OW. Get yourself centered, live on your own for once.

I hear problems with selfishness and self-esteem in what you are saying. I think BBF is on the right track asking Why is it important to know how other people see you?

(If you really want to know, spend some time reading in Just Found Out. I suspect that is not what you want, however – when you ask your friends for feedback, you want them to tell you that you are a wonderful guy, of course).

MFC2011 wrote an excellent post. IMO, 6 months isn’t enough time for your feelings to fade, particularly if you are not yet experiencing true remorse for what you did to your BW. It wasn’t until 8 months that my WH first admitted to himself that the OW had in fact manipulated him in many ways. Now at 15 months he is repelled by her and who he became with her. The memories are anything but fond. It would be so much easier for him if he could remember himself as the hero who stepped away from the affair, rather than the weakling who got his ass kicked by it. The hit to the self esteem when a wayward realizes what he has become is much larger than the boosts to self esteem when he/she is in the affair.

I wish you luck. This is going to be painful no matter which path you choose now; I recommend you choose the one that is going to leave you with a sense of integrity.

You need to be willing, each and everyday to say " I am married, I love my wife" and then each and every decision you make that day needs to make your marriage AND your wife stronger.

This is COMMITMENT in the face of FEELINGS.

EX. You want to lose weight & you're committed to doing so by eating healthy & exercising. Someone who knows you're doing this (because you've declared your commitment) gives you a piece of chocolate cake (I'm choosing chocolate because it has a dopamine effect). The person giving you the cake tells you it's ok, it's just ONE piece of cake, it's not going to ruin anything! Meanwhile, your wife is supporting your commitment to being healthy, she holds you accountable to your word for your commitment. You don't want to be accountable. You get defensive & want just one piece of cake. The cake giver gives you agreement to go with the feeling that cake tastes good & it's just one piece.

Now, if you held to your commitment to refuse the cake, even though you FELT like you really wanted it, it would get easier & easier to choose your commitment instead of your feelings. Feelings/cravings pass as your commitment & the sense of accomplishment builds.

There is a lot of good advice that has been been given to you here, as well as some things that you may not have liked to read, but were necessary.

You're still foggy, and in that state of mind you aren't really going to be able to really take in any of this advice until you can empathize with your BW pain. Until you really empathize with her pain, you will will continue to have those fond memories of the OW.

What really helped me see how badly I hurt my BH was to go through the other forums, and read all the BS stories, and read about their hurt and what their WS did to them. I saw myself in those posts and I didn't like who I was or what I did.

You're on the right track, you're here asking questions and you know what you did was wrong. Now you need to work a little harder empathizing with your BW, rather than thinking of the OW.

If you cannot do that, then take everyone's advice here and let your BW go. You have to want your M, not be in it just because you think it will help your BW. She has every right to have a faithful H who doesn't have fond memories of the OW. How would you feel if she did this to you? How would you feel if your BW was having the same type of fond memories of someone else? Maybe asking yourself those questions will help you see things more from her perspective.

And you don't have to demonize the OW to get rid of those fond memories. Just start by recognizing that she had a big, and willing, part to play in your A. Maybe she is a good person, but what she did was not, and she helped you hurt your BW, a person you say you love.

Good luck to you and keep posting. This is a great place to seek advice.

I can't add much more than has already been said, but I agree with two important points that have been made in this thread:

1.) The more time that passes with NC being in place with the OW, the more your feelings for her will fade. There is also the aspect of "mental NC." Even if you're not in direct contact with OW, the more time you spend pining for her, reminiscing, or romanticizing her in your head, the longer the seemingly positive emotions for her will remain.

2.) The best reason for seeing the OW in a negative light is the harm she has done to your BW and your marriage, and in fact even to you. It is irrelevant if she is a "bad person" or not in the classical sense of the word. She may not drown kittens in her spare time or hold up the bank at gunpoint, but she purposefully and deliberately contributed to the heartbreak of your BW and the destruction of your marriage. She didn't care who it would hurt or what the consequences would be. As others have said, that is not "true love," nor even a true friend.

Good luck to you. We will support you in your journey.

lostone209: Holding onto fond memories of the OW prevents you from deeply loving and wanting your BS. Why do you want to have fond memories of OW?

Just because OW has not displayed any hostility towards YOU through your conversations and dealings with her, does not absolve or erase the horrendous pain her actions have inflicted on your BS. She even knows your BS.

It's a lot more romantic and less of a betrayal to OW to cling to your perceived fond memories. Can you take a step back from these memories that you claim are fond, and see them and OW for what they really stand for and represent to your M and your BS?

-is it reasonable for my wife to ask me to have no fondness for my memories of OW at all?

Your BS does not want to live with the ghosts associated with your affair and cheating. This was a monumental betrayal of your relationship with your wife -she's not interested in loving you, or even looking at you, her H with his/your fond memories.

I took my frustrations with OW out on her.

I understand your BS believing this. The OW/A (when you were making all those fond memories with OW)interfered in your M in more ways than you can imagine.

BW says that OW wasn't nice to her when I wasn't around.

Please think about this one. IMO this is gaslighting because your BW was confused and hurt by OW unaware of what was truly happening in her life. This is true in my case. How fond are those memories?

lo209: Lots of great advice on SI, especially if you keep an open mind to all the great advice you will receive here. Good luck.