SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sometimes members can be a bit harsh. Cheating makes them angry and it spills over sometimes into sounding like they are angry with you. You are very new to DDay and you haven't reached the anger stage yet. You are still trying to rationalize what happened, to make it not so bad. We all did that, and then the anger phase hit, white hot rage. Some hit that stage right away and others it takes a while.

Sorry you were upset by that last post, but remember that all of these folks have suffered also. They are angry at your WW, not at you. Keep posting. This site helped me tremendously and I wish I had found it sooner. It was about five months before I did.

So sorry you are having to deal with this. One of our posters (male) tag line was, "I never knew there was this much pain in the world."

I think that says it all.

No insults intended; that would be very much out of place directed to someone who is suffering this kind of betrayal.

The point I am trying to make concerns your response. It shouldn't be so forgiving; you need to make this an intensely cathartic experience for your wife as well. She needs to be overwhelmed with remorse and self-condemnation; horrified at the dreadful thing she has done. Your response is key to generating the realization in your wife that she has betrayed you and let you down in the worst way.

One goal you are trying to achieve is to ensure this never happens again and this is accomplished by the exposure of your feelings of pain and anger and the realization by your WW that she indeed was the cause of it. Embracing the OM's sexual techniques sends the wrong message.

OK now:

There seems almost an admiring acceptance of the adultery your WW has committed.

From where do you get that? It did happen and I do have to accept that. My post and questions were about how I move forward with that knowledge.

Makes it somewhat more likely she could do this again sometime in the future, so she could once more share a spiritual experience of OM looking into her soul. The pursuit of ecstasy.

What makes it more likely that she'll do it again? I have told her unequivocally that if she does it again I'm gone. I didn't put that or a lot of things in the post because it was not relevant to the questions I had. I also stated, "WW has realized much of her experience was a self-created delusion."

Your WW is presently treading very carefully; doesn't want to lose her secure marriage to a very suitable life companion.

How do you know this? And if she is, isn't that what she should be doing?

Its almost as if your wife is telling you she got lessons from an experienced professional; now you as a naive amateur get to learn how to make love properly. A trifle condescending don't you think?

She told me because I asked her to give me details. I requested she be totally honest and not hold back. Because she was in the fog, her details were embellished. I don't like what she told me, but she was doing what I demanded of her.

Of course, she may need to use AM for more love lessons in the future, so as to introduce increased physical efficiency into your sex life.

I have made it clear that I would not stick around for that about a week ago and that seemed to the beginning of her fog begginning to disipate and lead to her admission of breaking NC.

I suppose she is assuming you will respond as you are reacting to the current cheating.

I did not really mentioned how I've reacted to her A, except the parts that were relevant to my questions.

This is so wrong; you are almost making a virtue of her betrayal and she escapes the condemnation she richly deserves for risking pregnancy, exposing you to disease and staining the marriage forever.

This is exactly what I'm wrestling with and what I questioned specifically; the issue of her being rewarded for having an A. I'm not making a virtue out of anything she did. But that does mean that positive results won't be part of the outcome. I assume most on SI would hope that the aftermath of an A would lead to a better marriage in the end. Otherwise, an A will most assuredly happen again.

The point I am trying to make concerns your response. It shouldn't be so forgiving

In what part am I being forgiving?

Your response is key to generating the realization in your wife that she has betrayed you and let you down in the worst way.

How is my response wrong and what should it be?

One goal you are trying to achieve is to ensure this never happens again and this is accomplished by the exposure of your feelings of pain and anger and the realization by your WW that she indeed was the cause of it. Embracing the OM's sexual techniques sends the wrong message.

I have exposed my anger and pain to her extensively. I'm not sure why you think I have not.

As I stated in a previous post, the primary "technique" was simply eye contact. It's hard to say now, that I'm not going to look into WWs eyes during sex because the AP did, even if it makes the sex more enjoyable for both of us.

But this is a useful point you make. This has been a sticking point in our marriage. She doesn't tell me what she wants and then I feel like I can't please her. So, it is difficult for me to now finally have her tell me what she likes and then say, well "now I don't want to hear it." I want her to tell me and I always have. She is finally embracing the fact that she has held everything in and not spoken her mind and built up resentments. I don't want us to go back down that road. This is the crux of the issue I'm dealing with. How do I move forward in healing our marriage issues without feeling like I'm rewarding her for the A.

kansas1968:

You are very new to DDay and you haven't reached the anger stage yet. You are still trying to rationalize what happened, to make it not so bad. We all did that, and then the anger phase hit, white hot rage. Some hit that stage right away and others it takes a while.

I'm not sure if it's helpful to tell me what stage I'm in. I don't think it's clear what stage I'm in. I didn't mention anger in my post because I don't have questions about anger.

I didn't mention the days at a time that I can't even look at her or the verbal abuse I've spewed at her; or the dramatic positive changes I've seen in her in the last week; or the fact that, except for breaking NC, she has done everything I've asked to support me. I hate what she did and she can't undo that. But all I can do is try to make the best of it and move forward.

And anger is discussed a lot on SI and I can get those questions answered by reading other posts. The questions I raised were on topics that I couldn't find elsewhere Excluding some of the things I'm going though may have lead some to skewed conclusions.

I don't believe I was trying to rationalize it as "not so bad." I was trying to reconcile my feelings that something really horrible can have some positive outcomes; and accepting that is very difficult.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 6:18 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]

AdamsApple, the wry tone in your first post may have been misinterpreted, or it could be that your marriage and thus your reaction to your wife's "cheating" is different in fundamental ways from the majority of SIers.

Your wife states that she is bisexual, and the two of you have had threesomes with woman during the marriage. Also, you are "allowed to fuck other women" and have had perhaps about 20 during the marriage.

Plus, you told your wife that she could fuck other men as long as you never found out about it.

To me infidelity in this context is no longer straightforward.

I was just coming here to post about the additional complexity and layers that are present in your situation....

....and I see that SailorGirl just did that.

The reason that I was going to bring it up.....is because I can't quite put my finger on what your *issue* is......and why you aren't a bit more......well, humble (considering your own history in the marriage.)

indeed. i did not know all the details. i assumed a more typical relationship. my bad.

i really have no advice. if you guys have an open marriage, i wouldn't have a clue what you are upset about or why.

i hope things work out for the both of you, whatever that may be.

sailorgirl and gonnabe2016:

Think back to the outlandish lies your WSs told on D-Day. Hell, my WW also said in that post that I had gained 50 lbs. But, at the time of her A I was 20 lbs. heavier (at 6'2") than the day we were married (12 years ago) and, thanks to the A-diet, I'm now only 10 lbs. heavier.

My WW didn't have permission to do what she did and admits it right in her signature.

You are now acting as a surrogate for my WW from when she was still in the A and was deep in the fog and lying and distorting almost everything.

and why you aren't a bit more......well, humble (considering your own history in the marriage

You have no idea what our history is and the fact that you are throwing back my WW's lies at me is appalling. I've already had to battle these lies once with her. I don't want to do it again here with you.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 8:43 PM, May 25th (Saturday)]

Here is a later quote from my WW admitting that she lied.

I have never been diagnosed. But I lied and embellished in my previous post...the one before I consummated the EA. BH is not a narcissist; I'll let him describe his own personality if he cares to, and will speak only for myself. Most of what I said about BH was distorted by my own fucked-up lens.

I am appalled that I disparaged my sweet, considerate, hunky husband to you and several cheating POS' s on AM. That is something even I was very sorry about from DD.

So, the marriage was only open for you, but not for her?

So, the marriage was only open for you, but not for her?

It was open for both of us with women. That is all she said she was interested in. And even in that situation I only had sex with 3 other women for a total of 4 times in 12 years (when she wasn't with me). And each time I would double-check with her to make sure she was alright with it.

She had also spent the night with at least one woman when I wasn't there.

You have no idea what our history is and the fact that you are throwing back my WW's lies at me is appalling. I've already had to battle these lies once with her. I don't want to do it again here with you.

Look, AA. I know exactly what it is like to have random people drink your WS's Kool-Aid. I actually have experienced it also.

I have read BOTH you and your WS's posts. Your WW admitted that she misconstrued you being a narcissist. She, nowhere in her posts, ever said she was lying about the fact that you had been sleeping with other women (20 in 16 yrs) and that she didn't care as long as you came home to her. She also said that you *okayed* her extracurriculars as long as 'you didn't know about them'. She is obviously under the impression that you have been much more 'extracurricularly' active than you are claiming to be.....look at her username. She says 20, you say it's 3.

I really don't care because it's between you guys. If there was some type of arrangement in your marriage....ok, fine. I.Don't.Care. If you or she chooses farm animals or vegetables for sex acts....I.Don't.Care.

Just give a clear and honest recounting of your true situation so that everyone that takes the time to read and ingest your words knows what the deal is. Your situation is extremely complicated and it is just a tad bit outside the norm of what all of the posters are used to seeing.....so be patient with us as we try to wrap our heads around your situation. No one is going to judge you. But we can't offer good suggestions without accurate information. Just sayin'.

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 9:20 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]

I don't think what I wrote was, "appalling".

I don't think her lies were "outlandish" either. She says 20, you say 4, but you were having sex with other women. You should probably add the women you both had to your total, but numbers don't matter as much as the true nature of your relationship.

A big sticking point in your marriage has been that she does not tell you what she wants from you sexually. She has trouble speaking her mind to you, so you feel like you can't please her. Maybe it would have pleased her if you wanted to be faithful.

Hi AdamsApple

I just wanted to say you are one hell of a writer and I hope you will do more writing, you're very good at it, it's a gift to be able to be entertaining when you're writing about something painful.

As for your relationship and betrayal, I have read all the posts and know you had your agreement between the two of you. The fact that you're both on this site means that you want to try and work out how to move on from here.

Whether you work it out together or separately is really up to you two. I know you have your arrangement with your WW and I find it interesting that you wouldn't mind her having sex with other women but do mind her having sex with other men. I would say "what's the difference" but I know what the difference is - the anatomy, right?

I guess you two need to either discuss what you are *both* allowed to do whilst remaining married, and move on together, or just call it quits. That sounds simple writing it down, and I know it isn't, but I do think you both have a lot of talking and thinking ahead.

Good luck to both of you.

[This message edited by Trying33 at 4:12 AM, May 26th (Sunday)]

AA...I have not read all of your posts. So I do not know the whole situation..but my question is;

If your wife had come to you and said she wanted to sleep with other men would you have been ok with that?

I have never had an "open marriage" by choice ( unknown to me, my wh had a fuck buddy, a female acquaintance of ours) and i dont understand the concept. It seems to me that you both were sleeping around and you were ok with it as long as she only slept with women.

Im just curious. Im not attacking you so please don't be offended. I was really saddened by your post but then when all the sex you and your wife were having with other people was brought up...i was like, " uh ok huh?!"

Why does it make a difference if she slept with a man or a woman? Why for you is it ok for your wife to have sex with other women but not men? Why if its a man then to you its cheating? But if its a woman its not?

No advice, but you've been heard.

I realized that what I should have said in my last post was that maybe your wife would have been more satisfied and open to you sexually if she knew you wanted to be monogamous. If she knew that you didn't need to fuck other women, and didn't want her approval for that.

hi apple, well i can tell you that based on my HB sex with WS, that he has grown a lot sexually during A. I asked him about this and he said OW didn't teach him anything, in fact she was inexperience, but that she was a willing participant. My WS is a very creative lover and I guess she was up for and open to anything and he's a better lover than before. This is hard for me to digest; in a way, i wonder if the affair was necessary to allow us to reconnect and if it was like a warrior journey in the sort of robert bly tradition (if i remember correctly).

In any case, it is hard to stomach. I asked him why sex was so amazing with her (my words not his) and he just answered, as if I had already known it was amazing. well it went on for 4.5 years; sex had to be better than good.

painful, yes.

Betrayal, is betrayal, whether you have an open marriage or not. Open marriages have rules just like monogamous ones do. The lifestyle isn't for me, but if it works for others and no one gets hurt, then go for it.

Obviously I was in an open marriage and didn't realize it.. wish I had known, would have gotten me a BF at the time and I wouldn't have had to pay for it.

You are upset because as long as she was only with other women, you didn't feel threatened, they don't have a penis and don't pose a sexual threat like another man would. I get that. I almost wish my SAWS had cheated on me with men, because they wouldn't be a threat to me as a woman. I know how you feel about your sexuality and how that is what hurts the most, it's the same for me, the sting of knowing he had sex with anyone besides me kills me, but he did with hookers! How low can you go and how much worse it is on my self esteem to feel insecure about myself now and compare myself to whores? yeah, pisses me off to no end.

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you concerning your now bruised sexual ego, but doing what the OM did, for me would only make me feel worse, a lot worse. If our WS can't be happy with us, the way we are sexually, then they need to just move on.

I really didn't want to get into our unique lifestyle for several reasons. One is that it was of dwindling significance in our lives. It sharply decreased after our marriage twelve years ago and has been almost non-existent in the nine years since we decided to have children.

The second reason is that many people have an overwhelmingly negative visceral reaction to "open marriages" and associate them with cheating, which they are not. There is also a strong curiosity about them which I feared (correctly) might derail my purpose for this thread.

The third reason is that I didn't feel (possibly naively) it had any relevance to my questions and issues. And it seems this thread has become more of a debate on my lifestyle choices then my WS's affairs.

I never tried to convince WS to particate in any lifestyle that was unfair to her. When we met I was wounded from many ill-fated relationships. By 35, I had reached two conclusions. I would never marry again and I wouldn't limit myself to sleeping with just one woman for the rest of my life. Incidentally, in the 17 prior years of relationships, including a 3 year first marriage, I had always been monogamous and faithful.

Then, along came 20WrongsVs1 into my life.

With her permission, I will post some things she recently wrote to her sister which explain our relationship and some of the items she posted here on IS, while in the fog.

If you think [AdamsApple] is some sex-aholic who led innocent, damaged little 20WrongsVs1 down the path to depravity: think again, sista, because it was the total opposite! When we met, I had already engaged in (at least) 3 "threesomes" before the age of 25. He was 35 and never had one. What you may not realize is: I led him down our sexually unconventional paths of threesomes, swinging, etc.

But I have been lying to myself as well as to you. It was always our arrangement that I could be with women, and I have been several times. It's been a long time, though, and my bisexual leanings have faded: like I went from 70/30 to about 95/5 as far as the hetero/homo ratio :) That's glib and I don't mean to be offensive. But the point is, until about a year ago, the thought of being with another man made me sick! It was not something I ever saw myself wanting. Seriously, a new penis, eww, gross! AdamsApple says he figured someday I might get drunk and act on an impulse and fuck some guy, and in that circumstance he would've been able (he thinks) to accept it, so long as it happened out of town, and the guy didn't know AdamsApple existed. But I twisted that "permission" to my own ends. I had an ongoing, romantic relationship with two different men--and that was never OK, and I knew it. And because I left all my inhibitions at the door, I ended up having a very interesting sexual experience with OM. Which, justifiably, hurts and frustrates AdamsApple because I have always--for 16 years--been shy about telling him what I want in the sack. Then I go meet some relative stranger in a hotel room and come back feeling all "sexually reawakened" which has been both fantastic and awful for us. That's a jagged pill for AdamsApple to swallow.

Since my original post, my WS has, it seems, come out of the fog. She appears to have immense regret (the kind of which I've never seen in her before). She has written emails to her sister, trying to repair that damage. She has finally decided to face the sexual abuse she went through at a very young age and has reached out to her parents for support.

I still hurt a great deal, but over the past week I really believe she is back; and her sincerity in facing her brokenness has helped ease my pain a great deal. I feel like we are a team again. A great harm was done to her a long time ago and now she has done a great harm to me. But maybe it has given me the depth to understand what she is going through and be better able to help her. I also believe now that because she sees how this monster from her past has affected her; she will absolutely refuse to give him the power over her, that having another affair would entail.

This has also made me face my demons, those that were first attracted to the qualities of her brokenness. Now we are two very broken people that, hopefully, with each other; can grow more whole. In spite of our non-traditional path, I have always loved her very much and she is my best friend. I believe, now, she would say the same about me.

[This message edited by AdamsApple at 4:21 PM, May 28th (Tuesday)]