SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Adding my support and best mojo for your job hunt. I know that having that outside affirmation, despite the complexity of accommodating child-rearing, house-running, and everything else involved, will be worth it. And your SA WILL have to step up or I will personally come out there and kick his butt.

I also want to say that you are one of the strongest people that I have ever met, HNF. Even though this has been very painful for you to write over the past year, I appreciate it immensely. It gives me hope, it makes me feel better, and it shows me how to work on my own game plan with my newly diagnosed SA husband.

THANK YOU!

Quick update. I met with my lawyers, and it looks like I can have a final draft for my post nup by the end of the month. They recommended a no-lawyers mediation clause for the "pots and pans" type assets, since we don't have any expensive things or heirlooms, and to videotape the signing of the agreement because it is evidence if silly claims like "that wasn't me" or "I wasn't of sound mind and/or was being coerced" type appeals later, and WH agreed to both.

I also got a date for formal disclosure with our ICs. Hopefully that will also happen at the end of the month.

So with any luck, I will have a great deal of peace of mind after Labor Day, and I will only have to worry about the kids starting their new school.

Coincidentally, I noticed a change in SAWH. I mentioned he seemed really happy. And he said. "I am really happy. Why wouldn't I be? I am estatic to be married to you and be a part of this family, that you are willing to give me this chance. I won't waste it. I can never truly right all the wrongs I have done, or make up for all the hurt I have caused you, but I am going to spend the rest of my life trying. I love you so much, I am not ever going to risk losing you again."

I hope I can get to that place in my head. It sounds really nice. But far away.

Hi Hath,

Just checking in to let you know I was thinking about you. It looks like you have everything lined up.

I hope your husband's attitude, remorse and dedication to you remain constant. You deserve to be cherished.

I wish I could give you a big hug IRL.

Knutz

Thanks Knutz for the support.

Full disclosure is tomorrow. Eep!

Be strong sweetie.

((((hathnofury))))

Holding you in the *****LIGHT*****

Be strong.

So we had formal disclosure today.

At this place, that means SAWH and I meet with our respective ICs (who are both CSATs), so we each have an advocate to keep us on track and keep things productive, not let it get out of control, etc.

The format is fairly simple. The SAWS lists their complete sexual history, including their infidelity with the important, relevant facts but not the gory details. They own up to what the aftermath of their choices have been on themselves, their spouse, and others as applicable. They affirm their commitment to recovery and change, and what that will entail. It's all written out beforehand, cleared by the SAWS's IC first to make sure it is relevant, respectful, productive, truthful, etc because trying to do all this from memory is too hard and too painful for everyone involved. The SAWH reads it in full without interruption.

Then the BS gets ask any questions they have of the SAWS. Their IC has prepped them for what they were likely to hear and what questions they might have, how they'd react to certain information, etc. They start with a prewritten list of questions but can add to it as the SAWH reads their disclosure or if answers are not specific enough. Then they get to read their impact statement. This is similar to what people do in intervention type scenarios, explain how the addict has impacted others by their choices and addiction.

Then the SAWS gets to speak from their heart, and show that the really "get it" how their behavior and choices have impacted their spouse and/or family. They address the points made in the impact statement. They acknowledge what they've done, take responsibility, they apologize, they say what they are going to do to change in the future, etc.

Ours took about an hour and a half. But we powered through, took no breaks, did not take a whole lot of time with the questions part because I had already found out most of his stuff already and I just wanted it over and done. I could easily see how someone could take hours to do this if the BS was being blindsided with dealbreaker info they were not expecting.

His history pretty much confirmed all my suspicions, everything I have listed in previous posts. In fact the only new sexual history info I learned was that one of his trips overseas to buy the Viagra was with his mother, that his mother was present at the purchase, and he told her he was buying the to resell for a profit back in the US. That pretty much shows a little peek inside of how messed up his childhood was and what his relationship with his mom is. I'm not saying this is an excuse, I am just realizing how much I underestimated his FOO issues and what that is going to take to overcome on top of everything else.

The other non-history thing I learned is that he clearly has character issues with honesty, I forget the psychological term the docs used. This scares me quite a bit. There is potential for sociopath type stuff with that, or at least some sort of mental illness. I need more time to process everything before I can explore that further.

I have to say while I was expecting all the items in his history, I was not expecting him to do as well as he did in what I call the "owning your shit" part. There are still some parts he's not totally there yet (like how it impacted his work performance and *I* think the dollar figure he estimated for total costs spent on and as a result of his actions is double), but he did way better in that area than I expected.

It was rough reading my impact letter. I have posted it here before. I've read it in my group therapy before. But it was nothing like reading it to him. And I think it shook him to his very core. I think quite honestly he thought I would leave him today, that it was game over.

His response was also better than I expected. I pretty much told my IC he'd just agree with everything I said, that he had no excuse, and there was not enough words to say how sorry he was. But he had addressed so much of my impact stuff in his "owning his shit" part he had some material to draw from. Honestly if someone read what I wrote to me, I'd be floored and rendered speechless. He did remarkably well all things considered.

I had a lot of questions. Basically they all were answered as I expected. Will expand later.

We talked with our ICs individually afterward. The only real concern my IC had, other than if I was ok after such an experience, was that while SAWH addressed almost everything else in my impact letter, he did not address my statement about not feeling safe. I confirmed I did not remember him doing that either, which was odd because that was one of the first points he addressed when I let him read the letter I wrote (in a earlier post) when I was going to leave. She also asked if I have ever told him why I stay. I told her I didn't know if I could fully explain it myself. That my legal options drove a lot of my decisions in the beginning, and as long as I or the kids were not in danger or being abused, that he was showing forward progress, it made sense to stay. It would take 2-5 years for me to heal, so I might as well stay put as long as it fostered my healing. That didn't mean necessarily I would always stay.

But it would have been a very different story if I hadn't. I truly think if I kicked him out, threatened the D, etc a year ago he would have spiraled down into the abyss and the kids and I would have had no financial security and full custody we have now with the post-nup. So I don't have any regrets for the choices I have made this year. I hate what I have had to endure as a result, but honestly I feel the alternatives would have been worse.

SAWH had driven separately, as recommended by our ICs in case we needed space afterwards. I felt ok afterward, obviously drained, but I told him to wait for me afterward. He asked if I needed my space, and I felt ok. I wanted to leave my car at home and go out to lunch. And we did, and it was nice. He told me his only regret about the disclosure is that between the long prep session for it the night before, and his trying so hard to remember to address everything, that he felt he didn't express the depth of emotion he wanted to. I could see that, but that's also part of his intimacy issues and his FOO. I also told him about the leaving out the feeling safe part. He agreed, he did forget to address that one in the session. He said he wanted to do whatever I needed to feel safe. But my IC is right, his focus seems to be on making me "happy" rather than making me "feel safe". It will have to be something he will need to address in his IC.

So now he has to continue weekly IC, two 12 step meetings a week, and start going to group therapy next month. In addition he has to submit to a polygraph to verify he is being truthful in his therapy, and I get to have questions verified too. I'm too wiped out to even think about that now. But I'm glad it is on the table.

***(((hath)))***

You've accomplished several steps at once, no wonder you're wiped out. Rest, mentally and emotionally. Recharge.

~ Sabina

You have been in my heart all day. Rest and recharge. Virtual hugs being sent to you from the coast...

hath,

I am really happy to hear that the disclosure went well for you. It sounds like he admitted to the things you knew (that he didn't know about?), and that he is saying the right things about recovery. I am hoping for you that in time he will blossom in recovery and become a man of integrity.

But my IC is right, his focus seems to be on making me "happy" rather than making me "feel safe". It will have to be something he will need to address in his IC.

I think that in early recovery, SA's aren't really good at differentiating between happy vs. safe. Until they have gotten to the root of some of their own issues they do not understand the concept of emotional safety.

I am just realizing how much I underestimated his FOO issues and what that is going to take to overcome on top of everything else.

Oh yeah, the FOO issues. For YEARS of our marriage, I underestimated the issues, not only in his FOO but I was busy trying to cover up my own. I think that if a "normal" (whatever that means) person would have known the FOO issues my H has, they would have ran the other way instead of marrying him! I know that even almost 3 years into recovery, my H is still dealing with his FOO issues, and I am still working on mine, too. Blah.

So now he has to continue weekly IC, two 12 step meetings a week, and start going to group therapy next month. In addition he has to submit to a polygraph to verify he is being truthful in his therapy, and I get to have questions verified too. I'm too wiped out to even think about that now. But I'm glad it is on the table.

This sounds like a good start. Time will tell if he is serious about recovery now. I hope for you that he is. I also hope that you continue to work on your own recovery and take care of yourself. Keep us updated.

[This message edited by TooManyYears at 5:37 PM, September 1st (Saturday)]

Thanks all for the support. TMY, I value your input greatly.

I need to explain something before I can get into a post about the questions I had my SAWH answer. It may not appear relevant, but bear with me. And it is probably something everyone on SI should know, regardless of their sitch.

So when you take pictures or videos on your cell phone, and you send them or upload them anywhere, a copy is kept on a backup database somewhere in the land of cell phone towers and providers. Now you can't ask for those pix without a court order, and from what I understand even that is difficult at best, but they are there nonetheless.

So in theory if you take pictures or videos with your phone and don't send them anywhere, that the only way anyone can access said pix and vids is if they have the physical phone. EXCEPT if they back up their photos with the provider, which may or may not be a defaulted setting in any given phone. Or in the case with iPhones (at least at one time, it may no longer be the case), the settings were defaulted to send all pictures to the google photo place connected to the gmail account required by most smartphones. So when these pix/vids are backed up, they are sent to those cell towers and the backup database.

I was reasonably certain that SAWH took pix and vids over the years of hookers with and without their permission with his phone. It also dawned on me it there was a very good chance he had taken compromising pix and vids of ME without my knowledge or consent, but wasn't sure if it was with his phone or with a camera. The reason that's important was that he had an iPhone when they were defaulted to back up pix on Google. And also when I used spyware for other purposes, I found out the spyware was able to upload his pictures, including some that he thought he deleted. I was petrified there could be x-rated pix or vids of me in a cell tower/database somewhere.

Long story short, he said did videotape us without my consent, but with a video camera and never uploaded it anywhere or copied it. While this provides me some comfort, obviously I'm disturbed he did it and even more disturbed I can't be 100% sure that there isn't a video out there someone could find some day.

This is one of many questions I had to address in the disclosure. But I felt this particular one needed its own post, because I think there are other people here on SI that need to know how cell pix/vids work, and if they could be in a similar position.

Another day, I will talk about the other questions. I'm still processing everything, even though most of it I already knew or suspected. It's rough. I definitely think it was well worth it to have it facilitated by ICs.

Dear HNF,

I just finished reading your story from start to finish...

I just want to say THANK YOU for sharing. It's almost like a how-to guide. Mostly how to find strength, and keep your big girl panties on. Right now, I'm having a hard time finding my big girl panties. I'm living in a limbo that I can't seem to get the guts up to end.

Reading your story helps in more ways than I can say.

So, I just wanted to say thank you for keeping up this thread even though you may be posting more in another forum.

I wish you peace as you deal with the disclosure info.

Just get it over with already. You've gone through many pages of how this selfish bastard is unworthy of you, and your heroic adventures to save him despite his utter unworthiness. For a while, you were a heroine, you have since chosen to become a public martyr. It is well understood how you want to wring every single drip from the tit of his high income for you and the kids, when are you going to give up the pretense that he will be a decent husband or that you wish to be anything other than a disciplinarian and mother to him rather than a wife? Divorce him already and move on even if you don't wind up being as rich as you want to be.

LAFA,

Just get it over with already. You've gone through many pages of how this selfish bastard is unworthy of you, and your heroic adventures to save him despite his utter unworthiness. For a while, you were a heroine, you have since chosen to become a public martyr. It is well understood how you want to wring every single drip from the tit of his high income for you and the kids, when are you going to give up the pretense that he will be a decent husband or that you wish to be anything other than a disciplinarian and mother to him rather than a wife? Divorce him already and move on even if you don't wind up being as rich as you want to be.

What you wrote is REALLY offensive. To call hathnofury a "public martyr" simply reveals your complete ignorance of her situation and what sexual addiction encompasses. I generally stay out of other forums than ICR for that reason.

As a caveat, I think very few SA's do recover, and I am quite pessimistic about the chances of recovery for most (because rock bottom is often much further down than most spouses realize), and I DO NOT advocate that spouses stay in such a relationship "for the kids" as I have seen first hand in my own life what living in a household of addiction brings. I NEVER encourage spouses to try and help "fix" the SA, but instead to work on their own recovery.

Having said that, I think hath has taken all the appropriate steps in this situation. She has secured a post-nup. She is seeking out therapy and recovery for herself. She has obtained a full disclosure. Her SA is seeing a CSAT and is saying he will commit to intensive therapy and 12 step. That is much more than many spouses of SA ever get. Will it be enough? Who knows, only time will tell. What about any of this makes her a martyr? That implies that she is passively sitting back and letting life happen to her, accepting that he will act out again.

And for you to imply that she is not entitled to her fair share of his income is sickening as well. My H signed a post-nup when we separated immediately after the last d-day, too. Oh, and I do work full time and make close to 6 figures, but yes, I wanted to make sure that I was financially secure and that our kids got what they deserved. I see nothing wrong with financially protecting yourself as a BS. I wasn't going to bleed him dry, I still wanted him to have a car and enough $ to live on.

For the record, if he gets into a real recovery and puts forth the effort, she will not have to spend the rest of her life as a disciplinarian or mother to him. My H has been in recovery for almost 3 years. He has worked through the 12 steps and goes to group and therapy every week. I am not his mother, sponsor, disciplinarian, etc. I am finally his wife and partner, which I was not for the first 16 years of our marriage.

I think hath has provided a very nice road map for others who are dealing with this situation by documenting the steps she has taken along the way. I don't think she is giving anyone false hope or looking for your pity or condemnation in the process.

TooManyYears...

We mods are in discussion right now regarding LAFA's post.

Please keep this thread on topic.

Thank you.

(((((((Hath)))))))))

You are a model and an inspiration to all of us who know what it is like to live with addicts. You have dealt with a situation that is too common, and yet unspoken of, a situation where our spouses have done the unforgivable and yet, because we too are imperfect, we can learn to forgive.

SA is more common than we know. And I believe that too many people will be affected by abnormal sexual behavior due to the extremes access to deviant behavior on the internet and the pervasive messages we get constantly in media. Our KIDS are bombarded by this. It's amazing that anyone has a "normal" idea of sex.

You are navigating this with grace and dignity and strength beyond your years. Bless you and thank-you.

We mods are in discussion right now regarding LAFA's post.

Please keep this thread on topic.

Thank you.

Wow. You flatter me, but it's not necessary. He's entitled to his opinion. His response actually says more about him and how he feels about his situation, whatever it may be. I pray that he finds his path to peace too.

I totally understand why someone would ask why not immediately D, given the extremity of what has happened. But again, and I know this thread is TOO long to absorb all the details of what has transpired, the kids are the #1 priority guiding all my actions. Not the "staying for the sake of the kids" kind of motivation mind you. The "get full custody in the post nup" kind of motivations, because sadly I know women who have been in similar or worse scenarios, and their SAs failed to get treatment and spiraled downward to new depths you cannot imagine - and they STILL have to hand over their kids to their spouse for visitation. That makes my skin crawl. Thus yet another reason to go through the full disclosure, so I know what I am dealing with. I have the "get the right to move back to my home state so I can have the support of extended family and friends, as well as my job contacts so I can support my kids in my post nup" kind of motivation. I have the "lay low and see how his IC goes", because it is likely there is other mental illness components that will come to light and I need to know that for the safety of my children. I'm not going to get that info if I leave now.

The money is actually not a huge motivator. The economy is not great. Even with court mandated support, you can't get blood from a turnip. He could get fired/laid off, it has happened before. But I can try to legally push off all the debts that I can onto him. There is not "getting rich" in this scenario, no matter how it plays out. The debts outweigh the income. But it's funny that someone can read my story and think that I'm gold-digger or something. If you only knew, LOL.

TMY, SK, et all...thanks for having my back.

Hath,

You are handling all this with so much grace. I heard the song "Titanium" and thought of you -- and all of us spouses/partners of sex addicts.

That is all. Carry on.

Before I get to the promised post about the questions I had for WH during disclosure, I feel a need to explain what it is like in our household now.

I know a lot of people like to strongly suggest against sticking around "for the sake of the kids" because often the hostile environment they are subjected to is worse than the potential effects of actual divorce. I think a lot of people assume people in my position live in a hostile environment, kids not withstanding. And some do. I do not, currently.

This is what my kids see now. They see Mom is a lot more like her old self, not completely there but pretty close. They do sometimes see me more short-tempered, but I am way more like the mom they used to know. Not the sad mom who doesn't do as many fun things with them anymore. And go figure, they actually *appreciate* the fun things I do with them more now because they didn't have them as much for a while.

My kids need a lot of structure and solid routines, and the past year has wreaked havoc with that both by design, and because I could only do so much being critically wounded, so to speak. I slowly built those routines back, but accommodated *my* needs for healing in there as well. We are now working on the new and improved routines now school has started.

My middle child has never adjusted well to change, and historically has a really hard first week of school. Especially in a new school. Not the case so far this year. Know why? Because when you go into the therapy of infidelity healing, you explore FOO issues, both yours and your spouse's. When you do that, you can't help but see how your interactions with your children affect their development, and the effects that has on their adolescent and adult lives. So you learn to avoid the same mistakes of your collective FOOs with your children, learn how to be more supportive in their development to have a more positive outcome in their future lives. Because of this, I am becoming a better parent and am better able to help my children with their needs. WH too.

There is no hostility between WH and I now. There was the month after DDay, but we made a concerted effort to not show it in front of the kids. Through the guidance of therapy, S-Anon, and SI wisdom, I have learned to apply the 180 and detachment as needed in my life. I'm also undergoing EDMR, which is a technique that lessens the impact of trauma, which is immensely helpful given the level of trauma I have had. So as all these obstacles were thrown in my path typical of WSs, the TT, the gaslighting, the false R, etc. I have been better equipped to deal with them. Thus the kids didn't see a dramatic change in me as they occurred. They saw a slow improvement in me in getting back to old self.

I've learned to let go of the anger and hostility, because it's not productive. In the beginning, WH would try to "poke the bear" at times when presented with the boundary of having to do the work on himself and the M for me to stick around, but I have learned not to take the bait and deflect it back on him. He has now learned, after finally accepting responsibility, transparency, etc. and is doing the work, to not be hostile as well, even after the kids go to bed.

The kids see their dad more often now. They have always been affectionate with me, but now they are affectionate with him as well. They see him happier, more relaxed, and actually engaged in their lives. They see him treat their mom with respect, and they see him help their mom every day by asking what she needs and doing it. They see their parents be affectionate and respectful of each other. They see their parents putting the kids' needs first, in their eyes, and showing a united stand on that front. I'm not saying WH deserves any medals for this, because he doesn't. This is what any husband and father should be doing anyway, every day. The point is that is what the kids see now.

Does it mean that WH has the potential to become the husband I deserve? The kind of father his children need and deserve? I don't know yet. I see consistent change over time in the right direction. But only time will tell.

Ann Landers had a lot of columns about troubled marriages during her lifetime, and she would always say, regardless of the sitch, "Are you better off with or without him/her?" A year ago, I would have said without him, but I needed to find an exit strategy that allowed me the custody and other legal concerns I needed. Six months ago, I would have said, I'm not sure...he appears to be doing the work but I can't verify he really is (and turns out, he wasn't, not to the level that needed to be done). But I did the work in me, and that spurred the change in him, because he didn't want to be left behind.

Today, I can say yes, I am better off and the kids are better off with him here. Is he the ideal husband? No, but he is trying to be, and he is learning how to be. Can he get there, and fast enough, I can't say yet. Can I get over such an immense betrayal and be able to trust him again to the level that is needed have a successful M? I don't know. It's too early to tell, because that is on me and I am not there in my healing yet. But I want to be able to say I did everything I could to try, even if I can't. In the meantime, we have set up an environment conducive to everyone's healing, and an environment that allows for more successful co-parenting of the kids. And if we can't overcome this, I want us in an environment where the separation has the least impact on the kids, and the least affect on each of our recovery and healing. So yes, I am better off today, but I don't know necessarily if it will always be the case. 2-5 years to heal from infidelity, remember?

SO in a long rambly way, the kids are alright. And if they ever aren't in the future, I will tell you the same thing I told my middle child when she was freaking out during an intense scene of the cartoon movie "Brave":

You don't need to worry, they will all be safe. Because let me tell you, when there is a mama bear involved, and the kids are at stake, the mama bear always wins. Always.