SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Before I get to the promised post about the questions I had for WH during disclosure, I feel a need to explain what it is like in our household now.

I know a lot of people like to strongly suggest against sticking around "for the sake of the kids" because often the hostile environment they are subjected to is worse than the potential effects of actual divorce. I think a lot of people assume people in my position live in a hostile environment, kids not withstanding. And some do. I do not, currently.

This is what my kids see now. They see Mom is a lot more like her old self, not completely there but pretty close. They do sometimes see me more short-tempered, but I am way more like the mom they used to know. Not the sad mom who doesn't do as many fun things with them anymore. And go figure, they actually *appreciate* the fun things I do with them more now because they didn't have them as much for a while.

My kids need a lot of structure and solid routines, and the past year has wreaked havoc with that both by design, and because I could only do so much being critically wounded, so to speak. I slowly built those routines back, but accommodated *my* needs for healing in there as well. We are now working on the new and improved routines now school has started.

My middle child has never adjusted well to change, and historically has a really hard first week of school. Especially in a new school. Not the case so far this year. Know why? Because when you go into the therapy of infidelity healing, you explore FOO issues, both yours and your spouse's. When you do that, you can't help but see how your interactions with your children affect their development, and the effects that has on their adolescent and adult lives. So you learn to avoid the same mistakes of your collective FOOs with your children, learn how to be more supportive in their development to have a more positive outcome in their future lives. Because of this, I am becoming a better parent and am better able to help my children with their needs. WH too.

There is no hostility between WH and I now. There was the month after DDay, but we made a concerted effort to not show it in front of the kids. Through the guidance of therapy, S-Anon, and SI wisdom, I have learned to apply the 180 and detachment as needed in my life. I'm also undergoing EDMR, which is a technique that lessens the impact of trauma, which is immensely helpful given the level of trauma I have had. So as all these obstacles were thrown in my path typical of WSs, the TT, the gaslighting, the false R, etc. I have been better equipped to deal with them. Thus the kids didn't see a dramatic change in me as they occurred. They saw a slow improvement in me in getting back to old self.

I've learned to let go of the anger and hostility, because it's not productive. In the beginning, WH would try to "poke the bear" at times when presented with the boundary of having to do the work on himself and the M for me to stick around, but I have learned not to take the bait and deflect it back on him. He has now learned, after finally accepting responsibility, transparency, etc. and is doing the work, to not be hostile as well, even after the kids go to bed.

The kids see their dad more often now. They have always been affectionate with me, but now they are affectionate with him as well. They see him happier, more relaxed, and actually engaged in their lives. They see him treat their mom with respect, and they see him help their mom every day by asking what she needs and doing it. They see their parents be affectionate and respectful of each other. They see their parents putting the kids' needs first, in their eyes, and showing a united stand on that front. I'm not saying WH deserves any medals for this, because he doesn't. This is what any husband and father should be doing anyway, every day. The point is that is what the kids see now.

Does it mean that WH has the potential to become the husband I deserve? The kind of father his children need and deserve? I don't know yet. I see consistent change over time in the right direction. But only time will tell.

Ann Landers had a lot of columns about troubled marriages during her lifetime, and she would always say, regardless of the sitch, "Are you better off with or without him/her?" A year ago, I would have said without him, but I needed to find an exit strategy that allowed me the custody and other legal concerns I needed. Six months ago, I would have said, I'm not sure...he appears to be doing the work but I can't verify he really is (and turns out, he wasn't, not to the level that needed to be done). But I did the work in me, and that spurred the change in him, because he didn't want to be left behind.

Today, I can say yes, I am better off and the kids are better off with him here. Is he the ideal husband? No, but he is trying to be, and he is learning how to be. Can he get there, and fast enough, I can't say yet. Can I get over such an immense betrayal and be able to trust him again to the level that is needed have a successful M? I don't know. It's too early to tell, because that is on me and I am not there in my healing yet. But I want to be able to say I did everything I could to try, even if I can't. In the meantime, we have set up an environment conducive to everyone's healing, and an environment that allows for more successful co-parenting of the kids. And if we can't overcome this, I want us in an environment where the separation has the least impact on the kids, and the least affect on each of our recovery and healing. So yes, I am better off today, but I don't know necessarily if it will always be the case. 2-5 years to heal from infidelity, remember?

SO in a long rambly way, the kids are alright. And if they ever aren't in the future, I will tell you the same thing I told my middle child when she was freaking out during an intense scene of the cartoon movie "Brave":

You don't need to worry, they will all be safe. Because let me tell you, when there is a mama bear involved, and the kids are at stake, the mama bear always wins. Always.

I haven't posted in a while. Back to school always kicks my butt, LOL. And I can't find my list of questions from disclosure, so I won't post about that today.

I am still somewhat reeling from the total disclosure. Like I said before, I didn't really get any new information I hadn't found on my own at this point, but I did get validation on the impact it had on me and our marriage. Mostly I was struck with being presented how broken he really is and was, how his perception of things is still somewhat altered from the addiction, and how pervasive the lying has been throughout his entire life. It's a lot to process, and at times it seems insurmountable.

And I am continually reminded of it. We will talk about something innocuous that happened in the past, and he will say how he thought it went down, and then I will tell him how it really went down and how the addiction and habitual lying totally drove the way it happened and distorted his memory. Then I can see in his eyes the lightbulb moment that he gets it, and then the shame and sadness that follows when he realized what he did, has done to me and our family for years. I think you can tell from my posts I am not a blamer and shamer, but I do speak my truth now and I lay it all out on the table as tactfully and respectfully as I can.

He is doing the work. He is going to IC weekly, and they are focusing on honesty above all else to get to the root of his issues/FOO things. He goes to two 12 step meetings a week without fail, unless I need him to cover me for something I need to go to. He will start his group therapy this month. He has been proactive in meeting my needs and being involved with the kids. He is trying to be as authentic as he can, but he has to learn a whole new skillset that most BS's grasped very easily in childhood that WS's do not. So while he always tries, he doesn't always succeed. No doubt he is working hard.

But I can't just accept it, can I? Because he's pretended to do the work before when he was not. Armed with the truth, I see everything with new eyes now and the effects on me cannot be undone. I will never be able to 100% trust him again. It will be a LONG time before I can turn off the second guessing every move, not have the triggers to the most inane things. And I am sick of the infidelity and the addiction taking over my life, even though supposedly it is in check. All the time I spend in therapy/support, all the time I have to hold down the fort while he does his therapy and support, that not one day goes by that it comes up at least indirectly and usually directly because of the everlasting consequences of his actions. It is a tremendous load to carry. Even though I try to put the focus on MY healing, let him do his own thing for his, I am still carrying a lot of baggage that has nothing to do with that.

But it is a load I choose to carry. I need to find out why. Am I doing it because I really want our M to succeed, or because I don't know any better? Am I just in wait and see mode, where I am doing the work for me and holding judgment on him and us until enough time passes? I don't know, but I need to find out. I don't want to stay if it's not healthy, and I don't want to leave, do the work to make the separation as painless for everyone as it can...and then dive right back into unhealthy habits either living on my own or with some other person that would do the same thing to me again.

So right now, it's all about Hathnofury. She's a hot mess, but she's worth it.

Hath,

I am almost 3 years out from dday and there are days when I STILL feel the same as you.

My husband, like yours, is doing everything right. Goes to 12-step, IC, MC and is more "present" with the kids. He is learning about empathy, and trying to understand my pain.

We will never "100%" trust them again. We can't. There is always a possibility that they could do this again. But now there are tools in place that they (and we) did not have when they were acting out. You won't second guess yourself if there are red flags.

I am sick of all this addiction/therapy/12-step "stuff" taking over our lives too.

I have often asked myself why the hell would I stay with someone that has been with SO MANY other women??? Stay with a man that is such a good liar? What does that say about ME? Am I weak? NO. I am strong. So are you. Are partners who leave their spouses weak? NO. They are strong.

We are waiting for them to "come back" to us, the men we met and fell in love with. I have to believe that the man I met is still there. There is no fairy tale ending here. He is flawed, but he is slowly, (too slow for me!)coming back. The fog is lifting.

My therapist says that this process is not linear. It is like a spiral staircase, some days going up, some days going down.

You are SOOOOOO worth it! Hang in there, hot stuff.

I just read through your entire story and want to say you have and are handling everything amazingly well. Hugs to you.

Thanks Knutz. I always appreciate guidance from those further down the timeline than me.

Thanks Walls, and anyone else lately that has shown support I have forgotten. I write this thread to keep the story straight in my head, and hope that it at the very least validates other people's feelings in my position and maybe helps others in a similar position.

I had an eventual week. I told me SAWH that I was struggling, I was feeling very resentful of being confronted with his massive infidelity, the impact it has had forever, and the impact it continues to have now. How I resent all the time and money I spend in therapy/group work, and the babysitting to do so, as well as serving as a single parent 2-3 nights a week so he can go to his therapy and group work. How I was angry he had to focus on fixing himself first instead of fixing the M, and wooing me back like I deserve. He took it all in, agreed and validated my feelings, apologizied, and said that his therapist said there would be a rough patch of us both being resentful and angry for a while post-disclosure. Which of course I had to ask, what do you get to be angry and resentful about - not to be snotty, but because I truly don't fully understand. He wasn't able to give a good answer. Probably because he doesn't know how, and doesn't want to screw things up further than they already are.

In my IC my therapist reminded me how the polygraph is really going to help me in the future. This center uses their own polygraph person with decades of experience who specializes in tests regarding infidelity and addictions. So very low chance of fooling this guy. That it will go a long way to me feeling better about his recovery and progress, and that he is still being faithful and doing what he is supposed to do. I have to hope that is the case.

After our discussion SAWH has been trying a lot harder to be more supportive and affectionate of me, and addressing my needs on his own initiative. Seriously, I think he's just so thrilled I am still here every day he is willing to do just about anything to keep me here and make me happy.

Case in point, I had asked him long ago, shortly after Dday, tell me those six statements you read about in the What Every WS Should Know thread in the Wayward Forum. I originally wanted them in writing but was okay with them being verbal. He didn't want them in writing at all, and wanted to make them spontaneous instead of scripted, which meant they were infrequent and never all six statements. And then they disappeared altogether over time. I told him during our "resentment" discussion I was resentful it had all but vanished, and that while I could appreciate him wanting it to be genuine and spontaneous, it WASN'T ABOUT HIM and he should be doing it because that is what I need. He's made a point to do it, and remember all six things, nearly every day since. So he's listening, he's trying.

But I have so far to go before I can really heal, and for our M to really heal.

****

update, link to thread that contains the 6 statements:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=324250&AP=1&HL=

****

[This message edited by hathnofury at 12:12 PM, September 24th (Monday)]

I just wanted to say I have the final draft of my post-nup in my hand <happy dance> and I couldn't be more pleased. As I posted long ago, it was a condition of R for me. I thought I would note some of the more genius things in there applicable in my situation:

I get non-modifiable spousal support monthly for life (until my death or remarriage), and if his income changes he still is liable for that amount (so if he's laid off or whatever, he does not get off the hook).

He forever waives all claims for spousal support from me.

I am a irrevocable beneficiary under his life insurance policies, and he is required to submit proof yearly of such insurance to me in the amount that will cover my spousal support on an annual basis. And if he dies, right after the tax man, I get first dibs on his estate for any outstanding spousal support.

He has agreed to assume all our consumer debt accrued until now if we split. Additionally, any jointly and voluntarily accrued marital debt afterward, I am obligated to only pay a percentage of the debt equal to my income as a percentage of our combined income. This is important as I am a SAHM at present.

I have the option to leave this state and return to my home state with the kids at any time. It is difficult otherwise for me to relocate from this state with the kids. I have primary custody.

If the divorce is initiated due to his infidelity, WH has to pay the first $10k of my lawyer fees. This is really the only area in my state where any concept of "at fault" applies.

If either of us challenge what's in the post nup later on, that person must pay the first $10k of the other's lawyer's fees.

I have one more meeting with my laywers to bless the document, then it's just a matter of making it official.

If you are a BS in a position to enter post-nup with your WS, DO IT. BE RUTHLESS. I absolutely would not be open to trying R at all if I did not have this. Do not give them any benefit of the doubt, they have already betrayed you - this is for your own protection. Get everything you need, that is allowable by law, in writing.

I find tremendous comfort in that if even after everything I try, if it all goes to shit - at least I do not have a messy divorce to look forward to. It's already been taken care of.

Gotta say - that is freaking awesome! Congrats to you. I know you worked long and hard on that. I am very impressed!

Update. I have hit a snag with the post-nup. I have to update our estate planning to this state and to follow the directives of the post nup. Which at this moment we don't have money for. So I either have to wait and save up, or take a risk with "docs in a box" online wills/etc, neither option which I like.

But I let WH read it, and he only had two issues. First, he's concerned about keeping the level of life insurance he has right now indefinitely. Through his employer, and by pure luck of passing blood tests, he is insured for an insane amount of money right now for free. In the past, his benefits have not been this generous, and his blood sugar and liver levels often imply he has conditions he doesn't really have in blood tests. He's worried, say, when he's 60 or if a future blood test required for insurance comes back bad, how could he possibly keep insurance for the same amount affordably. So that's something I will have to ask my L about.

Second is as it is written, if I choose to divorce because of his infidelity, he pays the lawyer fees up to a certain amount. He wants it to say infidelity going forth from the date of execution, so I can't just pull the trigger immediately because I do have proof of past infidelity. I told him I had to think about that. My gut says if I comply, raise the amount AND wait until after the poly he will have in a month or so confirming he told the truth in disclosure. But again, I have to talk to my L, what he's asking may not be legally possible. To imply there was infidelity in the past may mean implying a felony has already occurred, which you can't do in a legally binding document here. So another wait and see.

All the rest of the terms he is totally fine with.

Me no like wait. I wanted it done and these roadblocks keep popping up.

Also, I've had some serious triggers in the past couple of weeks. Little stuff, and yes I have the tools now from therapy to address them better and more quickly now, but it is getting tiresome having them. I didn't sign up for a life where random shit could do this to me. I'm very resentful about that.

So an update on this, and I am asking for input from my wise comrades on SI on my post nup:

Second is as it is written, if I choose to divorce because of his infidelity, he pays the lawyer fees up to a certain amount. He wants it to say infidelity going forth from the date of execution, so I can't just pull the trigger immediately because I do have proof of past infidelity. I told him I had to think about that. My gut says if I comply, raise the amount AND wait until after the poly he will have in a month or so confirming he told the truth in disclosure. But again, I have to talk to my L, what he's asking may not be legally possible.

For the record, not spoken to the lawyer about it yet. So IDK about the legality of it.

But it has been eating at me. Being a contract laywer, I knew WH would want to change *something*, because it is just not possible for him to read any contract and not suggest changes. But why this point? It was unsettling for me. What if I found out he left stuff out of disclosure about his past? That's a dealbreaker for me, and he should pay laywer feeds in that case.

So WH and I discussed the post nup again last night. I told him I had lots issues with this point of contention. Not the point itself as much as WHY. We went round and round, and basically it came down to two things. He wanted it to be a document going forward from the date of execution because he thought that was always the intention from both of us, AND he was saying it would legally be interpreted as such anyway unless specifically stated otherwise.

I reminded him when I brought this up initially over a year ago, the intention was to plan out our D in advance from a place of love, so if R did not work out an ugly D was not a possibility. Also that since that time, he had lied about his recovery and his past, led me to believe he was further along in therapy than he was, convinced me to buy a house I wouldn't have had I known the truth, then dropped the bomb his TT was ten times less than the real story in formal disclosure. That his assumptions that we were in a place now to make agreements going forward would make sense if we were on a level playing field, but right now I could *never* be sure I was on a level playing field. That to agree to that condition was asking a huge leap of faith after I had already given him more benefit of the doubt than he deserved.

Ouch, that had to hurt. But it needed to be said. I think he was genuinely surprised that I felt that way. Suddenly this post nup is not a plan we have for an unlikely future event, but could in fact be a very real possibility to execute some day.

Back and forth, etc. He said he'd sign whatever I wanted, he wanted me to have the security I needed and deserved, but kept saying as it was written it would be interpreted as going forward anyway, and that I'd have to change the wording if I wanted it to go backward. And that contracts in general don't legally fly going backward, but again he'd sign whatever. Or we could wait to sign until after the poly if I wanted to be sure his disclosure was the truth. To be fair all he is saying is likely true. And I also have to keep in mind, if he ever actually got a lawyer to represent him, instead of representing himself, I'd be up against a whole LOT of proposed changes and this one would probably be the least of them.

But this is not what you want to hear when you ask your WS WHY he wants to make such a stipulation in a post-nup. You want your truth to be heard, you want acknowledgement of your truth and pain, you want remorse and you want to hear things that make you feel better about going forward. And because WSs are what they are, and addicts are what they are, I wasn't getting it. At least not at first. I think it was when I said, "I want to hear something that will make me feel better about this, and you are failing miserably." that he finally understood.

By the end he was pretty much conceding to anything and everything, he was worried and probably scared I had changed my mind and would leave because of this point. He even said if I was less than 50% sure that I wanted to stay M anymore, we could just go forward with D using the post-nup as the template for the settlement agreement as is, he wanted me to feel safe. But that he'd also do whatever I wanted and needed to stay. That was his motivation.

Basically, my gut says he's not hiding anything. I think he still has some of the entitlement and need for control that WS's have and that addicts have, stuff they use to deflect the guilt and shame off what they have done. And I will have the poly to prove that either way.

IDK. I think I need to bounce all this off several people to get an idea if it sounds like what I think it is.

I would definately talk to your lawyer, but were I in your shoes, I would not budge on this point. I would insist that the provision be in because, well, too bad if you decide to pull the trigger immediately. YOU didn't choose to live a life where you have to be tested for hidious STDs monthly. YOU didn't choose to introduce strangers into your marriage. YOU didn't choose to experience second-hand casual sex. HE did. And no matter what his actions look like now, YOU have to deal with all of the ramifications of HIS choices for the rest of your life.

That's called a consequence. (((hugs)))

Hath, I have a basic but probably dumb question. Is a post nup legally binding in your State? I'm not a lawyer but I've always read that a postnup was almost impossible to have enforced in court. If your WH is a lawyer I'm sure he knows if he's signing something that is truely binding.

Yes they are legally binding, IF they are made with the intention of reconciling a priority and not a means to coerce someone into a unfavorable divorce settlement. My state also does fault divorces and spousal support, so not the norm for most states in the US.

But it is a load I choose to carry. I need to find out why. Am I doing it because I really want our M to succeed, or because I don't know any better? Am I just in wait and see mode, where I am doing the work for me and holding judgment on him and us until enough time passes? I don't know, but I need to find out. I don't want to stay if it's not healthy, and I don't want to leave, do the work to make the separation as painless for everyone as it can...and then dive right back into unhealthy habits either living on my own or with some other person that would do the same thing to me again.

These are good questions to ask yourself. I would also ask do you still love this man? Can you ever forgive and trust him again? Is this how you want to live your life? Do you enjoy being a victim? Another thing I would think about is do you want to be a 50-something woman with no job skills and fading looks (sorry- just trying to be honest) when he relapses??

AND he was saying it would legally be interpreted as such anyway unless specifically stated otherwise.

If ^^^that^^^ is true, then why the heck does he need to change it? If the court is going to read it as *forward* unless specifically stating otherwise (which is doesn't), then what's his problem?

I have started reading your story. You are so strong. I will continue to read, but it is bringing up so many of my own feelings and memories that I need to slow down. This is a safe place and I am thankful that people like you can share their Stories.

I didn't feel strong then and don't now. I feel like if I shared this outside of this forum, then or now, everyone would see me as weak. Everyone would ask me why I am still here? Why didn't I expose him to everyone? How can I even think there is a remote chance this can succeed, what kind of example am I setting for my children?

I think this so often... it's like I wrote this!

These are good questions to ask yourself.

I would also ask do you still love this man?

Can you ever forgive and trust him again?

Is this how you want to live your life?

Do you enjoy being a victim?

Another thing I would think about is do you want to be a 50-something woman with no job skills and fading looks (sorry- just trying to be honest) when he relapses??

Yes.

I don't know yet. I want to, but I'm not ready.

A year ago, no. Right now, maybe. Everything is headed in a good direction. I have to see if it continues to improve.

No, I don't enjoy being a victim. I think that's pretty apparent from my posts.

And no, I don't want to be the 50/60/70YO woman with no job skills (although in my family we do not age and always look fab, LOL) with a SA spouse. I've seen that firsthand in group therapy and S-Anon. I'm working on that now. I am trying to get back into the job market part time.

All very good questions I will continue to ponder.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 4:12 PM, October 21st (Sunday)]

If ^^^that^^^ is true, then why the heck does he need to change it? If the court is going to read it as *forward* unless specifically stating otherwise (which is doesn't), then what's his problem?

My point exactly. Plus it would come out of joint funds anyway. I needed to know WHY this point of contention.

So we discussed it at length, and it turns out he really was just being an OCD contract lawyer. He said if it says that and you want it to go backward, I will help you word the right way the best I can. He also offered, if I was less than 50% sure if I wanted to stay in the M, he'd D using my post-nup as a template for the terms. He didn't want to, but he was willing to.

And I talked to my therapist about it, and specifically what all he said and how the convo went. She thinks he's legit, and it's part of his recovery process. But that I had every right to raise the red flag and explore it.

Hunnybunny, that quote still applies today. But I have faith events unfolded the way they did for a reason. That I was shown as much as I could handle in real time, so I could get my ducks in a row and put my kids best interests first. My story would have been very different had I known everything on DDay. And it wouldn't have necessarily been better, more likely worse. But that's because I have been very lucky to have all the right support all along.

Update. Polygraph at the end of the month. Putting post nup on hold until that is done.

Just to reiterate, this is a poly mandated by HIS therapist as part of his therapy. This guy is a specialist in doing polys for SAs. The therapists at the center use him to determine if their patients are being genuine and truthful in their sessions. However, the spouse/partner is involved if there is one, because they often need confirmation or closure for their healing as well. I got to write a long narrative of our story and what my concerns were. I was a little concerned it was too long, and he actually called back to ask more questions and clarify things. So although I have been skeptical of polygraphs in general, I feel very confident about this guy's skill level in obtaining the truth and identifying potential problem areas.

Thats great news hath. I SO wish for a csat like that.... I really need that poly.

But why is the postnup waiting until after the poly? Shouldnt it be before, jic?