SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I haven't read all the responses, and I'm not going to comment on any particular issues, I'm just going to join those who have called upon you to let your wife go. As someone who took back a cheating boyfriend, only to have him leave me as a husband 9 years later, when I had two small children (and I'm not blaming him for all our problems, but ultimately he was the one who decided he was done), there haven't been many days in the past 7 years since he left that I haven't had to talk myself out of regret for having chosen him as my husband. My one consolation is my children - they are the light of my life, but my heart also breaks for them because their father couldn't give them the family that they deserve.

If you love your BW, let her go. Let her find someone who will be able to commit to her and love her the way she wants and needs. Otherwise, she will always be wanting more from you than you can give her, and you will end up resenting her and cheating on her again.

You don't seem to understand what it means to commit to one person, and it doesn't seem you even want to. This is a train wreck waiting to happen. Let your wife go now while she has time to heal, move on, and find happiness.

And please, don't have children unless and until you have figured out what it means to be committed to a family. It means making the conscious choice to protect what is precious to you.

And please, don't have children unless and until you have figured out what it means to be committed to a family. It means making the conscious choice to protect what is precious to you.

I do not want to ever have children. Period. Even before all this unfolded, I had realized I had enough trouble handling my own life to think I was capable of bringing another into the world.

As a teenager, I was more open to the idea and figured I'd decide when I got older. My BW was adamantly against the idea, though her stance has softened over the years as mine hardened.

OW adamantly does not want to have children and, I suppose, this may have been something appealing about her in my subconscious mind.

More info about the affair and the dynamics going on:

(I do find it hard to call it an affair, but I understand that's what it was. For a long time, I bristled when my BS called it an affair. I really bristled when she referred to OW as "the other woman" or my "affair partner". Early on, when I lost my cool, I'd say stuff like "she has a name" or "her name is X!". Yes, I know this is bad.)

The October 2011 Trip:

Before the trip, my BW expressed concerns about me touching OW irl. I am quite ashamed to admit that I insisted that touching was ok because I thought it wasn't romantic. We did make an agreement on what I would do if I felt anything romantic for OW on the trip or if anything happened when BW wasn't with us. I said I would stop whatever it was and tell BW immediately.

On the trip, there were a few times I asked BW if what OW and I were doing was ok. One time, we were sitting on a couch, OW on one side of me and BW on the other side of me, looking at photos we had taken I think, and I asked BW if she was comfortable and if it was ok to hug them both together. She said it was ok.

On another day, the three of us were out on a boat together. It was cold and windy, so BW had gone inside to the heated part of the boat. OW and I were trying to stay warm but enjoy being out on the ocean, so we leaned against each other as I held her hand in my coat pocket. BW came out and saw us and then went back inside. I remember being horrified that I might have gone too far so I went in to talk to her and ask if it was ok. She said it was fine and she was just cold.

She told me later that she felt pressured to say these things were ok. I was upset when I found out because at those times, I was genuinely trying to make sure I was being respectful. Of course, if she had said no, it's quite possible I would have reacted badly.

After the trip, I asked our mutual friend (the poly one, actually, though it was just her, her husband, and her kids who met us one day on the trip) how OW and I looked and she and her husband could tell immediately that something was going on between OW and I. I insisted it wasn't and that we were just "friends who loved each other". (Yes, I know how stupid that sounds now.)

Also after the trip, my BW started calling OW my "girlfriend" and researched polyamory and other such arrangements trying to adapt to the situation. I was frustrated because I did not think it was romantic at all and continued to insist we were "just friends". To be clear, we had touched a lot on the trip (lots of hugs and even a couple backrubs, with BW's "permission"), but since there was no kissing, I guess I was able to fool myself.

We also kept having trouble with time. BW tried to accommodate the relationship, but I kept wanting to spend more time with OW than she was comfortable with and we fought about it.

Also, throughout, though more earlier than later, BW would often read along while I IMed with OW and even offer advice on things we talked about.

At one point in December, I thought I might have felt something close to romantic and began to suspect I was blocking. I realize now that I should have stopped things then, but I used the excuse of wanting to find out what I was blocking before I stopped things to go on the trip alone with OW.

I also suffered extreme jealousy of OW's other friends, even early on. I didn't know why. I thought I was just afraid of losing her as a "best friend" and it was me being silly. Now, I realize I subconsciously saw her as a mate and was reacting as if she was in a relationship with me.

Also, I did not tell OW about BW's requests for us to tone down our relationship. Only in December did I tell her that BW was uncomfortable and not happy with us being more than friends. So at least for awhile, I think, OW had no way of knowing there was a problem. She did, however, continue even after she knew BW and I were having problems. BW asked me not to talk about our marriage problems with OW and I generally complied, however. That doesn't excuse me or OW, though, I know.

After DDay:

One thing BW and I have disagreed on is whether I was replacing her. I felt like my relationship with OW was a new and separate thing, but BW said I was replacing her. She said she felt like I sacrificed her and our marriage in order to feed my relationship with OW.

Hope this info isn't too extraneous... just thought I'd get some more stuff out there.

Your wife is a human being who should be afforded the opportunity to be loved and cherished in the truest sense of the word. You don't seem to be able to do this at this time.

You seem very much to want your ap. you're holding on for dear life and not even seeing your wife walk out the door can sway you. Now it seems that your wife may want children and you and your ap do not. Let your betrayed wife go. Let her go.

You say you love her, loving her means that you want the best for her. Someone who loves someone else is not the best for her. A husband who will not only not protect her from a soul murder but loves the invader as well is not what is best for her.

I hope that you don't find this to be swinging 2X4s, I really don't mean it that way. I write in hopes that you will see that you are clinging desperately to someone who, with you, has killed your wife's heart. Maybe you love your affair partner but stop pretending that you are star crossed lovers who accidentally met your soul mate after your soul was pledged to someone else. There is nothing beautiful, meaningful or magical about an affair. It's sneaky and selfish and once it has finally cost you your wife and you're able to see that it is simply biological chemistry that keeps you holding on you will see that we are right.

In the meantime, let your wife go to find someone who loves only her. Would you settle for your wife splitting her heart between you and some guy? Why don't you respect and allow your wife the dignity to be loved in the way that she deserves?

I also suffered extreme jealousy of OW's other friends, even early on.

So polyamory, I don't know anything about it, but shouldn't that mean it works all ways?

I think most people avoid to say anything about it, as it is everyone's own choice what to do in a Marriage. BUT, shouldn't that be a conscious choice of both parties BEFORE something like an AP comes along?

From your first post I get that you BW married someone who didn't like cake, hated cake, never wanted to eat cake. And after he met the OW he wanted to switch to eating cake and said to his BW "I think I want to be a cake eater".

I just wonder, if you take a step back from all this, replace YOU in this story by your BW and the OW by an OM, would you still be okay with everything?

Just imagine all of this turned around, how would you feel?

[Post deleted because BW was not comfortable with me sharing about certain things, even anonymously.]

[This message edited by lostone209 at 1:17 AM, August 1st (Wednesday)]

You are defending the OW. Don't do that anymore. Was she as confused as you? Maybe, but it doesn't matter. She is a big girl, she can get through this on her own.

This has been a problem for me. BW often accusses me of defending OW when I'm just saying what I actually think. The worst is when she asks me something and I say what I think and she says I'm defending her. Sometimes I feel I have to lie in order to give a response my BW will accept.

How can I express how I see my OW honestly while also being respectful of my BW?

Why do you feel other relationships are empty? What is it about yourself that you can't feel full with other relationships?

I feel other relationships aren't very deep. Friendships that BW and I have with others don't seem to last very long. We've changed friend groups a number of times.

More than that, though, I just don't feel close to any of my friends to a degree I'd like. I don't feel any of them really understand me. It's very frustrating. I had thought I had finally found a close friend, but, of course, that all exploded. :-(

We are both very hurt but we both love each other and have a very strong bond, even if there's tons of pain. It's amazing we're still living together after all this. I have thought a lot about letting her go for her own sake. I came here as a last, desperate attempt to try to salvage things.

At the beginning of the quote, you say that WE are both very hurt.

I.just.don't.get.that. I do not understand YOU equating YOUR hurt to your BW's. I will not expand on my thoughts (because I don't want to get banned).....

Your BW, bless her patient soul, has watched this whole train wreck play out in front of her face. And you are still on the fence.

Maybe this OW IS your 'soulmate'. You said that you were faithful for 13 yrs and now you just can't let go of her.

The hard fact of the matter is that you have ALREADY hurt your wife. Done and over. You devastated her. Period.

Now it is time for you to shit or get off the pot. Seriously. YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE. It seems, from reading your posts, that you have already chosen.....and your choice is not your BW.

Your BW does not deserve your 'crumbs'. If you cannot give yourself to her fully and have HER best interests at heart.....then, please. Do the humane thing and divorce her. From what you have described in your posts.....you are 'clutching' onto the fantasy of your OW. And like I said.....you were faithful for 13 yrs, so maybe miss OW schmoopie IS your soulmate.

Bottom line is that you need to 'get real' with yourself and stop jerking your BW around because I am not sensing a HUGE desire on your part to make your marriage work.

Something I find interesting is that all of you pretty much agree that my wife's insistance that I have no fondness for my memories of OW is quite normal and appropriate. Our MC said that it was ok to still have fondness but that I shouldn't dwell on it and said I could keep my memories in a figurative private drawer which I could open from time to time as long as I had actually moved on.

My IC also encouraged me to focus on my wife and said that my feelings for OW would fade over time but never completely disappear, which my BW found unacceptable.

My friends have generally agreed with my MC and IC - that it's unrealistic for me to have no fondness for memories of OW.

I also notice many of the examples and advice I've seen here are similar or identical to stuff BW has told me. She does read these forums (though she has no account herself), so I guess she might have picked some things up here in terms of trying to explain things to me. Also possible you all deal a lot more with the feelings that BS's have and thus understand them better than most. Though you'd think MC would as well...

She does read these forums (though she has no account herself), so I guess she might have picked some things up here in terms of trying to explain things to me. Also possible you all deal a lot more with the feelings that BS's have and thus understand them better than most. Though you'd think MC would as well...

Don't rely too much on MC's professional credentials. It was not that long ago that seeing and MC was synonymous with heading for divorce.

Infidelity is a particularly hard topic to research, because it is usually a very secretive activity. People lie about affairs to everyone. The first actual scientific research is very recent, and it has not really made its way through all the academia that trains MC's.

You will find that the loudest voices about having no fond memories of the AP actually come from the WS's on SI. Those who realize and hate what they have done, and see the role the AP played in all of it. Your wife knows what you have done, and she hates it. She wants empathy, which requires that you see what you have done as well.

If you have fond memories of your AP, you have fond memories of your affair. If you have fond memories of your affair, you have fond memories of hurting your wife. If you have fond memories of hurting your wife, it is not safe for her to be married to you and she should run.

What would you say to someone who said they looked back fondly on the times they beat their wife and put her in the hospital? What would you say to that persons wife?

Your wife is not picking up this idea from browsing through SI, it is her honest reaction. It may not have been public knowledge in the past, but virtually every betrayed spouse feels this way, they just didn't talk about it.

Early on, when I lost my cool, I'd say stuff like "she has a name" or "her name is X!". Yes, I know this is bad.)

If you still are holding out some hope for your M, you are very lucky that your W has more patience than some of us. If you would have said the above quote to me, I would have pursued a D and never looked back.

I do agree with you that having fond feelings for the OW is most likely very normal for most WS. But I am also one who will not spend one day knowingly with my man sharing such feelings for another woman. So it is good that you are honest since that gives her the option to make better educated decisions on what she has to do with her own life. Just saying if my H did what you did and still had fond feelings for the OW, I'd be long gone.

Have you read Maia's withdrawal survival guide?

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=137622

eta: I bumped this for you

I hadn't read it before but I have now. Thank you. I guess I'd say it's frustrating that it's written from a distinctly Christian perspective. I've found that to be a problem with a lot of materials on marriage and infidelity, actually. And those that aren't overtly Christian tend to at least be theist.

I'm not trying to start a religious discussion. I respect people of all faiths. This is just a problem I've had as a non-religious person.

Try to understand that what you are fondly remembering about the OW is the emotional equivalent of twisting a knife in your BW's back. Try replacing that image of your wife sobbing with an image of you and OW, knife in hand, twisting the blade. When you make that connection, maybe you will see things differently, especially about OW.

That's even more abstract and hard to picture. I just don't know how to connect BW's hurt and pain (which I do feel guilty and responsible for) and the good feelings I had.

Personally, I don't think that polyamory is the solution to your problem. But before you "blame" your wife for vetoing the lifestyle ... have you asked the OW if she would be happy sharing you with multiple women in the future?

I don't think it is either. Polyamory involves conscenting adults. My BW never conscented to this. I know this.

I did briefly discuss possibilities during our last morning together after I had told her I had to stop out of respect for my wife. She said she felt she couldn't give me what my wife did but also didn't feel she wanted anyone else. I was concerned about my jealousy being a problem in a polyamorous situation. Either way, it never was too seriously discussed since it was never a real possibility. By the time we knew what was going on, my BW had decided that it was an affair and that she was not at all interested in staying with me while it continued.

Can I suggest that instead of seeing your Wife in your mind as a victim and crying, picture her moving on with someone else. Picture her happy with another man. Is this something you can deal with? Does it hurt you to think of her marrying someone else? If it does, go with this for a while when those feels for the OW pop up and see if it helps.

She's said she never wants to have another relationship again, so it's hard to imagine that. I have tried to switch our roles and imagine her doing all of these things to me, but I don't seem to have a good enough imagination to do that. I actually was always scared of her getting with someone else and was intensely jealous. Ironic, though I hear it's common with people who become waywards. She had never been jealous at all.

I hear problems with selfishness and self-esteem in what you are saying. I think BBF is on the right track asking Why is it important to know how other people see you?

I was trying to check myself. I wanted to see if my feelings that people understood me were actually true. So I asked them to describe who I am, what I want, what I enjoy, and what they like about me, those sorts of things. And then I checked to see how much that actually seemed like me. I was trying to cut through self-delusion.

It seems clear to me that you really are not in a place to be able to restore the relationship with your BW. I'm not sure what you are looking for - you seem to think if you alter your argument a bit, we are going to change our opinions. You don't seem to be in touch with the feelings your BW is having, or that they are valid feelings that many others who have been in her position can share and understand.

If I were speaking to your BW right now, I would tell her to walk away right now and not look back unless she wants to have her heart broken over and over again.

My IC also encouraged me to focus on my wife and said that my feelings for OW would fade over time but never completely disappear, which my BW found unacceptable.

My friends have generally agreed with my MC and IC - that it's unrealistic for me to have no fondness for memories of OW.

Then you have a choice: accept what your BW says she needs and save your marriage OR follow the "professional" advice of your IC or MC and be divorced. I know that sounds harsh, but the bottom line is that your BW should be your priority and her stated needs should rise above every other factor when it comes to R.

BTW, your IC and MCs advice is not the standard when it comes to professionals who are well-qualified to deal with infidelity. If I were you, I'd look for new counselors.

And I'd highly recommend that you get a copy of "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass and read it. Her guidance is very dfferent than what you are receiving professionally.

I was concerned about my jealousy being a problem in a polyamorous situation.

I actually was always scared of her getting with someone else and was intensely jealous.

I also suffered extreme jealousy of OW's other friends, even early on. I didn't know why. I thought I was just afraid of losing her as a "best friend" and it was me being silly. Now, I realize I subconsciously saw her as a mate and was reacting as if she was in a relationship with me.

If you feel jealous of OW, then you do understand precisely how your wife feels about your fondness for OW.

She's said she never wants to have another relationship again, so it's hard to imagine that. I have tried to switch our roles and imagine her doing all of these things to me, but I don't seem to have a good enough imagination to do that.

My XH said the same thing. That lasted for about 2 weeks after D-day when he began having sex with my former BFF, which then turned into a year-long relationship.

I assure you that the pain I felt at finding my former marital home transformed into a spotless love nest and seeing the Trojan "pleasure pack" of condoms placed neatly on his bathroom counter in anticipation of his f**k fest (when I went there on lunch break to get the rest of my stuff) was but a small sliver of the pain he felt at discovering my infidelity. And despite being a sliver, it still killed me. One of the quicker ways to learn the beginnings of empathy, at least for me.

I have went through this thread and read all of the responses.

I know that by the time 55 people post on a thread, the later treads do not get read.

I hope you take time to read this. My fist question, has your wife agreed to give you another chance? If not then all of this is a mute point.

In fall 2008 my FWS met a woman at work and became best friends in a short period of time. My FWS had never developed a freindship that quickly. They talked on the phone, text endlessly and saw each other every day at work.

In Nov.2008 I confronted her about her feelings. In the beginning she continued to state they were just friends. Finally she admitted they had feelings for one another.

We went to MC, had IC and she put the bare minimum into trying to R. All the while she could not get the thoughts of the OW out of her head. She could not even stop talking to her. She definitely did not go NC.

Dec. 2008 I gave her an ultimatum me or her. She chose her. This was a person that had loved me and only me for 13 years. I fell apart.

She developed a relationship with OW, she remained friends with me. It was the worst year of my life. The pain was unbelieveable. I did not know about SI at that time or maybe I would have had NC. She could not let me go, and I could not let go. To this day I wish I had not been a part of her life during the period she was with OW.

Although the A started in late 2008 and ended in late 2009 it has been unbelievable hard to R. She has had to watch my pain over the past two years. We have had 2 years of MC. The first 4 months was with a MC that wasted our time. we now have an excellent MC. We have made great progress, but I still have such a hard time with how long it took her to wake up. Even after all this time I think about it often.

She has been NC with OW for two years. when she looks back, she cannot believe that she fell so hard for something that was not real. She has no feeling left for the OW. She realizes how much pain that she caused for me. She wishes that she could change that year, but the sad fact is she cannot.

I wrote all of that to just let you know what my FWS lost due to having so many fond memories. She was fired from her job. She lost her credit and most of her finances. Even though she does not drink often, she spent that whole year on the fence drinking herself into oblivion.

What I really want you to hear is that she lost herself. She has never really stabalized her mood since that time, and she will tell me that she feels that she lost herself.

What you are doing to your wife has consequences. I hope that your wife has enough strenth to move out and go on with her life.

I think if you look at one question at this point it would be helpful. If you had to choose between never talking to BW or OW ever again. Who would you choose. If it is OW, then let your wife go, even if it causes you pain. You can't have both of them.

Since you are having a hard time envisioning things with your BW, let's switch it up a bit.

You are now the betrayed person. You are doing everything in your power to get the OW's attention, but she has "fondness" for another. Her time needs to be with this other person. She loves you and doesn't wantt o hurt you, but really she is sooo attached to this other man. They just clicked and talk for hours. You are right there with her, offering all you have and she wants to hold his hand, spend time on the deck with him...even though she is supposed to be yours and you guys are supposed to be a couple.

You tell her over and over just how uncomfortable you are with this, but she blows you off. This isn't an affair, he is just her best friend and they are going to take a trip together.

Each day you give in to something new, because you love her and don't want to lose her. Each day you lose a little bit more of your own self-respect, but you don't want to lose her.

Finally your amazing OW admits to having sex with her dream man, but is willing to work on her marraige with you as long as she can still think about her dream man each day and how wonderful he was, and how they connected, and how none of her other friendships supplied this same feeling and that includes her friendship with you.

If this still doesn't help you get into your wife's shoes, see where she is coming from and stop making excuses...then you are simply not ready and you need to let your wife find someone else.

BTW...I too, say many times, that I don't want another relationship if my WH and I were to D...but ya know what? I also said if my WH ever cheated on me, we would be over...and I'm still around. You can "say" what you would do a hundred million times, but I have discovered (the hard way) that you really don't know what you will do until you are actually in the situation.

I wish you luck in your quest, but right now I don't think you are quite there yet.

[This message edited by momxgbg at 6:52 AM, August 1st (Wednesday)]

Im with everyone else at this point. Your real focus is the OW. Your topic title says it all.

Will you admit that to yourself? Will you admit that to us?

Say the words to yourself. " I love [insert OW name here]!"

How does saying the words make you feel?

Now, what are you going to do? You came her looking for help. There is more help in this thread than you'll get from IC in a year.

It's time start processing. Let's hear those cogs clicking and rubber burning.

Dig deep and think.

ETA: I think you just don't want to be that guy. The guy who has an affair and kills his marriage. It's killing you that you're that guy.

[This message edited by Twitchy at 7:17 AM, August 1st (Wednesday)]