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LOL re: kids not coping. If you're gone it'd be WH's problem, right? I'm glad you've planned things and I hope you continue. I've found it to be essential.

~ S.

Hee hee. Sure, it's his problem while he holds down the fort. I'm just worried about the aftermath. You know, it's like when you go on vacation, and go back to work. You usually have to work harder to make up for the time you took off. It works the same way for SAHMs too.

Please go somewhere fun and have a fabulous time! Have a glass of wine for me.

~ Sabina

I wish! As part of participating in the class, we have all been asked to abstain from ALL sexual activity (including masturbation) and any potentially addicting behavior (booze, gambling, etc.), at least through the last two thirds of the class. It's supposed to give us clarity in our thinking as we go on our journey of discovery and whatnot. But how about I eat a lot of chocolate and ice cream?

I made the appointment with the lawyer today for next week. I have not yet discussed the financial terms of support with WH yet. I started to last night, but I was just too tired. I have found I usually get very little resistance on things I want when I catch WH in the right mood. But the flip side is I have to be in the right frame of mind too, in case I need to negotiate. If I feel weak or tired I fold too easily.

I finished the co dependent no more book, which is required reading for the course, and I didn't like it and don't identify with it at all. I reread parts of your sexually addicted spouse by barbara steffens and I identify more with the PTSD angle in that book. I also want to read the patrick carnes followup to out of the shadows about the impact of electronic media on SA, I might buy that today.

Mostly I am trying to keep up with my homelife and get my kids settled. they had a rough transition to school but appear to be doing better now. I think it's no coincidence it's that it is the same time we've started the class and are finalizing the post nup.

So three things have happened.

First, we went to the second class of the course today. It was the one focused on spouses. I was disheartened to find it was highly focused on co-dependency, and how co-dependency affects spouses of SA in particular. I was hoping for more info on PTSD, and more info on the SA's role in their spouses' recovery. However, I felt like I was in a roomful of codependents and spouses who it took everything in the world to get there, so I didn't feel comfortable speaking my position and asking my questions at the expense of everyone else.

I don't identify with co-dependency at all. I identify with Barbara Steffens view on PTSD in partners of SA. That you have to address that first, whether you are co-dependent or not. Because if you are co-dependent, you will not be able to undo your codependent behavior without addressing the PTSD first. And secondly, if you are not co-dependent, you are someone who was thrown into a SA nightmare, being told you have to admit you are co-dependent, and that your spouse may not be able to support your healing, and you are enabling your spouse's SA, is just about the worst thing you can do to someone who is not co-dependent to begin with. I couldn't have enabled behavior I didn't know was even happening, for example. Perhaps if I WAS codependent, I would have figured out WH was SA sooner, LOL.

So now I have doubts about how helpful the class/program will be for me, because I am not having the issues that co-dependents have, I am doing self care, etc so my PTSD will remain unchecked. I have to find a way to address that it in IC I guess.

Second WH and I had a discussion about him not being supportive enough, that he's acting like his life doesn't have to be different, etc. That I am in severe pain due to the PTSD and need more support on all levels. It was moderately successful but we will have to have it again I'm sure.

Third, I told him we had to have the financial discussion prior to my lawyer visit Wednesday. So he knows it is coming.

Long long day. Sigh.

Keep your chin up.

Remember that the financials are "business"... not personal or emotional and they must be accurate. He may have "secret" accounts that he doesn't want to disclose. A credit report can help with that sometimes.

Good luck. Stay calm, classy and clear-minded. You're doing very well, all things considered!

I so agree with you about the Steffens book. But I came to understand that some of my behaviors were enabling. I tolerated moodiness, accepted fairy tale lies, and closed my eyes to some of the obvious. That all may be my 20/20 hindsight talking because I was blindsided too.

But I feel like I learned a lot at our version of SA 101. I think you take what applies and leave the rest. You are acting in an incredibly strong way, with all your proactive financial plans. Don't neglect the emotional HNF. She needs TLC, and unfortunately can't get it from an active addict. PM me if you need to. You listened to me when I needed a hug. I'll be happy to reciprocate.

Thanks, Invictus. I don't think there will be any surprises when the lawyers do discovery and verify everything I collected for them. I had credit reports in my hand within a week of dday. The discussion we need to have is how much support is he willing to pay if we split. It's not going to be pretty.

ScaredyKat, I hear ya and thank you. I didn't elaborate before, and you probably know this having btdt and read Steffen's book, but there are many parallels in the symptoms and behaviors in PTSD and co-dependency. The difference is, as I understand it, is the WHY. A codependent snoops on their spouse in an attempt to control the spouse's behavior. A PTSD snoops because they are trying to survive, and know they can't control a person but they can control their environment. So the PTSD snoops because they need to find out the scope of the spouse's behavior, since they obviously can't trust the spouse to tell them. They do it to find out if they need to be taking precautions to protect themselves and their kids - like finding out if the spouse is into kiddie porn or meeting unsavory people that could find out where you live, for example.

These are the reasons why I have issues with addressing co-dependency first. Why are you trying to tell me I am damaged, have FOO issues, am in denial, are trying to control people, etc and just let go and quit spying when I am trying to find out how much danger I am in? I already *know* it isn't about me and I can't control him. If either were the case SA wouldn't be an issue, LOL.

But I need the support, and I need help with my symptoms and behavior even if they have the "why" wrong, I need the fellowship of other spouses. So I will forge ahead and take what I can from the course. I just hope I don't alienate the others because I'm coming from a different place. After all, we are all trying to get to the same destination.

You are doing everything you can and more. Please be kind to you and take TIME for you. I spent so much time reading as part of my survival mode after D-day I lost myself in the shuffle. Don't do that.

((((((HNF)))))))))

Yeah, I have come to realize I have been in rage and survival mode for so long it is affecting my health. I need to get an IC thing going to deal with this. I spent so much energy either mad or suppressing my mad and I am exhausted and getting sick. That is on the agenda tomorrow, make some calls about that.

WH appears to be listening and making some effort. He's taken the kids out twice this weekend "Let's give mama a break." and when I told him I was going to go out for a while today, he said to go ahead and plan on going out every Sunday afternoon, make appointments for massages or whatever, he would watch the kids (and football ) so I could have some me time. And today, he is going to do the dishes. He actually does do quite a bit around the house, but I can count the number of times he's done the dishes in the past year on one hand. So it looks minor but is pretty huge. It's not holding a boombox in the front yard, but it's something.

We had a really rough night. Basically he told me he still isn't convinced he is SA, but he thinks doing the class is worthwhile to help address his issues and work on our relationship. He also went into a long speech about what he was willing to do and not do, then told me we could discuss it further after he finished doing the dishes he promised me he would do, which pissed me off. Seriously? You think you are in a position to make any sort of demands?

Wound up talking late into the night about expectations, boundaries, etc. I broke down and cried, I said a couple of things I hadn't said before that rattled him to his core. It wasn't very 180, for sure, but he got to see firsthand some of the consequences of his actions.

He did show remorse, but honestly I don't think he is capable of understanding the gravity of what he's done or what it's done to me. And I told him so. Part of it is fog, part of it is addiction-related. I have to further detach and move forward with my healing without him.

He wants to talk more tomorrow. I told him we had to have our post nup financials discussion too, because I meet with the lawyer this week. I'm not sure if this whole discussion will help or hurt me on that front, or have no effect in all honesty. At this point I don't care. I just want it done.

I too found the whole co-dependent, FOO related issues, emphasis very off putting initially. With time and insight from both the IC and the CSAT I came to see that I do have co-dep. tendencies. The really offensive part to me was when the CSAT continued to try and get us to admit we were co-addicts. That's where I drew the line, and adamantly said so. I stuck with the group for so long because I found the IRL fellowship invaluable. I didn't read the Steffens book until very recently, and the further I get into it the more I recognize myself. Good luck with the financials, hnf. Keep us posted.

~ Sabina

[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 8:18 AM, September 26th (Monday)]

So we discussed financials last night. It went really well. I was surprised.

I did what he asked, basically laid out a budget I would adopt if we split households, so he could see what I'd need. He could see that I'd have to make some cutbacks and eventually would have to go back to work, even under the best circumstances. I think that gave him some comfort, I guess. I don't know how he thought I'd be able to live high on the hog when we can't even do that now as one household, LOL.

When I told him what I wanted he didn't even bat an eye. He did want to word the parameters of it differently, but the spirit of the arrangement is the same. I'm not about to hash out details like that, because it gives him the illusion of control he wants, and the truth is my lawyer has to hammer out the specifics to make it kosher with our state laws anyway. There is no point in discussing nitpicky specifics if they are not legal, LOL.

I am SO relieved. So now I can go in with my list of needs to the lawyer, and they can flesh it out to make it legal, and we can get 'er done quickly. This will bring me tremendous peace of mind. I told him this was the best gift we could give ourselves, so we could focus on what was really important and not worry about what would happen in a worst case scenario. He agreed.

Of course I can't count my chickens until they've hatched. I am sure when he reads the actual document, he is going to want to edit *something*. Because of his control issues and because that is what he does for a living, LOL. The question is will it be a minor thing, like in last night's discussion, or will it be a major thing he will want me to compromise on. Only time will tell.

I still feel good about it, and that is a really good thing.

Congratulations hnf! It's a positive step in the right direction at least. I hope the trend continues.

~ Sabina

So I went to the lawyer today, while WH watched our one child that is not in school yet. The other two are obviously in school, LOL.

They were very happy to see me. I had a giant tomb of documentation for them, all indexed and labeled, any and every document they could want. WH and I had already agreed on all the general terms of the agreement, so there was nothing to really negotiate. They were impressed I was able to get him to agree to what I did, and had some ideas for other ways to implement certain aspects of the arrangement that still met the spirit of our agreement. It is possible to include a infidelity clause in our state, so they are going to get back to me on my options for that. And they recommend another firm to follow up with our wills and estate planning so it will reflect all possibilities and things can be expedited quickly in the event of either or both of us passing.

My assignment now, other than a few documents they hadn't previously requested, is to get a PO box so there is a secure way to send me stuff. I actually had looked into it the same week I had set up my individual bank account, but I never followed up on it. Looking back now, I can't believe I didn't already do that. Even in the best case scenario, I still need a place only I can access to get particular mail and packages. I would hate it if, for example, the kids ran out to get the mail as they often do and dropped something. Or if WH saw something he could construe out of context, etc. One of those DUH moments. So that has to happen this week too.

They also recommended I take out a life insurance policy on WH independent of his employer, so that I have control over it. Because he can always change his stuff to whatever he wants, cancel it, etc. but this I could keep in my realm of control. Good point.

I feel empowered. It will take some time to get it all hammered out and final even though we agree on everything, just because of the nature of the beast. But it will give me such tremendous peace of mind. Assuming he doesn't go batshit crazy and wind up in jail or something, LOL, I will have enough money to care for myself the kids until they are adults, and some wiggle room for when they are gone. Whew.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 12:41 PM, September 28th (Wednesday)]

So to fully recap what I’ve done since my DDay in June 2011, because my lawyer did and it was funny to me, I have accomplished:

Connfrontation without revealing my sources, resulting in a confession of tons of stuff I had no idea about.

Found SI, thank God, to give me direction and support in my time of need.

Getting a copy of WH’s credit reports, to verify there were no secret credit cards/accounts I didn’t know about.

Went away for 2 weeks with the kids and did the 180, which resulted in him flying out to meet us because he was afraid I wouldn’t come back.

Full transparency on all email, phone, financial etc accounts.

Read the following books:

Deceived: Facing Sexual Betrayal, Lies & Secretsby Claudia Black

Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Healby Barbara Steffens

Out of the Shadows Third Edition: Understanding Sexual Addictionby Patrick Carnes

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourselfby Melody Beattie

In the Shadows of the Net, 2nd Edition: Breaking Free of Compulsive Online Sexual Behaviorby Patrick Carnes (halfway through this)

About every bullseye post on SI for newbies, and the entire healing library.

Got a full STD panel and came back squeaky clean.

Made WH get a full STD panel, and he came back clean as well. It is a condition of R that he retests every three months.

Went to a free legal seminar to find out what my legal options were in my new home state, of which I had only lived a year in.

Made an appointment with a lawyer to find out all my legal options, most of which sucked. Decided getting a post nup was my best personal and legal option.

Made a comprehensive list of my boundaries and conditions of R, delivered it the way Serj recommended in a discussion with WH, and got WH’s full cooperation and acceptance of the terms.

Had WH get a vasectomy. Because we are not having any more kids after this.

Opened a bank account in my name, and deposited 3x the amount I suspected he spent on infidelity, which is most of our savings.

Paid off one credit card and made a huge dent in the other credit card in my name. Told him it was a priority now to pay off all debt in my name only.

Got educated on DIY spying and confirmed all my suspicions regarding his past activity, including prostitutes, ED pills, sex-related equipment, etc. to get a understanding of the FULL scope of his infidelity. Also confirmed currently there appears to be NO further activity as he promised. Have the tools in place to verify this should I ever suspect again.

Got a full disclosure of all infidelity activities from WH, which appear to be legit and more or less final through verification in my extensive research. I am prepared to find out more later if needed, but after a certain body count, the impact diminishes IME.

Had four appointments with a MC, who referred WH to a SA specialist. We have since discontinued MC because we need to work on IC first.

WH had extensive testing and was diagnosed as SA at the specialist, but he refuses to fully accept the diagnosis but is willing to continue treatment as my condition of R.

Enrolled us both in a program specifically designed for SAs and their spouses and have been to the first two sessions. This was not a condition of R, he volunteered.

Compiled all the documentation needed for the post nup (which is extensive), got WH to agree to my terms, and have delivered all the necessary info to my lawyer. Which includes full custody of our kids, paying estimated child support immediately, and significant unconditional spousal support for life.

Exchanged two trips WH planned to take on his own pre-dday for trips for ME. Both of which I am going on in the next month.

You’d think that would be enough in three months since DDay. But no. I still have to:

Find a CSAT for MY individual therapy. I’m seriously a basket case now from putting it off so long.

Get rechecked for STDs six months after the last test.

Complete the course, which has a spouse group therapy component.

Follow up on WH’s agreement to check out a 12 step program, and enforce consequences if he doesn’t.

See the post nup agreement to completion.

Try to get my life back and the focus back on me, because doing all the above and taking care of our kids has taken ALL of my time until now.

No freaking wonder I am completely exhausted and mentally drained.

(((Hath)))

my God, you are amazing!! I wish I had an inch of what you have accomplished.

I know it still sucks..to think this is where life took you (us) but it is now reality and you took the bull by the horns and shook it down.

(hug)

Your Hubby is a freakin fool if he does not do whatever it takes to keep you!!! You are so strong. Best wishes.

Thanks, Cheetahbump. I know that's right, LOL.

Thanks, donotlietome. I just hope I still want him when there has been enough time to address our individual issues.

It just sucks all around. I can't do a thing about him, only me and my environment. He can decide to accept he's an addict, or not. He can address his issues in therapy/treatment/12step, or not. He can put forth 200% in getting my trust back, or not. I really don't have any say in any that at all. All I can do is remind him I am only committed to waiting a year from dday before making any drastic life-altering decisions.

And the truth is he won't regain my trust in a year, even if he did everything right. He certainly won't be in full recovery in a year, at the rate he's going. It's not likely he's going to see all his issues objectively and thus be able to address them effectively in a year's time. He has this sinking feeling no matter what he does, it's not going to be enough, and he's probably right, he just doesn't have it all spelled out in his head yet.

And God knows what I will be like in a year. I've got some severe trauma to work through. I have severe trust issues now with anyone and everyone to work through. I have anxiety out the wazoo and physical problems that have to be addressed as a result of the stress and lack of enough self-care. I have to totally re-examine the way I parent, because you can't learn about all the FOO issues that factor into infidelity and SA without thinking about the way you parent your own children. And my children are suffering from what has happened, even though they don't really understand what is going on. I need to remedy that as best I can.

I've got a lot on my plate. In all honesty whether or not our M survives is not first and foremost on my mind.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 11:34 AM, September 29th (Thursday)]

You really are awesome... and inspiring! I love the way you have handled yourself.

One question, and I know I asked before but how is the deliverence of the boundaries you mentioned? (Serj's?)

I feel strange telling him the consequences in list form because I feel like Im talking to a kid that way, Boundaries I can do but consequences not so much (unless its the ultimate one). I may make a separate post on this also.