SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We are spending more time together. Getting babysitters to help because we have no family here. We are talking and sharing our feelings and checking in with each other often. Sitting down and really listening.

Rocket80

It is certainly easy to understand why all BS think of the AP as a POS. The AP was a key player in the pain and anguish they experience on a day to day basis. IMO, the AP deserves zero empathy from the BS. As I believe you (or someone else pointed out) many of us WS are AP's ourselves. I actually feel that we deserve even less empathy than the AP because we were the ones that made a commitment to our BS and broke it. At the end of the day, we had a responsibility to protect our BS and not the AP.

However, I do think at some point, anger becomes counterproductive. In the beginning, it can motivate a person to action; in this case getting out of infidelity. Later on, it only serves to continue to give the AP head space. In the end, I think indifference is the ideal state to be in. I used to think the sun rose and set on my AP. Now, she feels like someone I knew a long time ago. I don't love, like or hate her. I simply feel meh. She no longer occupies my mind like she did. I hope to get to a time when I completely forget about her.

I can understand that more than from the WS perspective. I've seen people here trying to get help only to have Waywards bash them until they probably leave. I alomst left this site after a similar experience where a Wayward bashed me for missing my AP. I guess I see a HUGE lack of support for the Waywards.

You have touched on something I've been feeling for a while now. I have seen at least 3 posters that have come here looking for support and being driven off in a matter of days. Many newbie WS make the mistake of removing the stop sign on their initial posts. This is not a dig at BS at all but most WS are not in a mindset to deal with the understandable pain that BS are dealing with. Granted the Wayward forum is protected but most BS are in such pain that it fairly radiates from these pages and is very painful to read.

What isn't so understandable are the attitudes of some of the WS. Each and every WS has been (more or less) in the same spot as every other WS yet they seem to have forgotten what it was like to be in that day 1 mindset. You are flailing about, most are still in the fog, defensive, emotionally wrecked, whatever. Instead of trying to welcome these people and draw them in, many feel is it ok to start swinging the 2x4's.

Maybe these 3 are just reading but obviously they no longer felt comfortable posting. IMO they shouldn't be made to feel that way; that seems counterproductive and not what this site is supposed to be about. I suppose I feel sympathetic towards those WS because they, like me, had not confessed. Almost immediately, the confessional tirade started. It was very apparent by their responses that they were not ready to hear it. Certainly as WS further down the healing path, we have an obligation to help those who come after us. It benefits no one if a WS comes here, feels attacked and then leaves.

I certainly started by having compassion for the AP at one point thinking she must be hurting too. In my quest to discover who she is as a person via SM I felt compassion seeing some initial quotes on true love. I thought “she did a horrible thing but she’s hurting too”. That lasted about two weeks until she showed her true face basically trying to do her best to communicate to me (through social media) that she is better, kinder, honest, amazing and I was chaining my WH to a toxic marriage. She knew nothing of me but her assumptions were high.

4 months later I discovered that contact has been maintained with threats of telling me everything my WH left out on DDay. Basically my WH would sometimes come home and cry his eyes out and I couldn’t understanding why he was such a wreck. She was threatening him to call me and destroy me while at work as she wanted my work colleagues to see me as I breakdown when she talks to me. She was telling him to hand over his phone for her to check our conversations and stay in a meeting room with him for several hours preventing him from going to his IC appointment and being late to pick up my daughter from my in laws having my number dialled on a phone except the last digit, if he refused she’d call me (and she did 3 times, I got anonymous calls hanging up after listening to my voice). She gave him deadlines to leave me though he was telling her she needs to move on as he wants to stay and work on his marriage. By the way this was admitted d on the conversation we had on the phone. She tortured me on SM.

He finally confessed to everything knowing I will find out anyway as he couldn’t damage control anymore. She kept quiet for two weeks and then started the proper attack openly on SM: posting their sex dates and locations followed by “great times and memories”, posting about liars and cheaters, definition of stupid (me), how I settled for the lowest scum etc. We’re six months past DDay 1 and 2 months past DDay 2. She still hasn’t stopped. Every time she does that

And you ask me to have compassion for this woman? A woman who attacks the only person who didn’t have a choice in this situation? A mother just like her who with every one of her attacks would break down? Attacking my kids by turning their mum into an unstable person? Attacking my kids by interfering in my marriage?

My WH hates her and I believe him. One night (before DDay 2) he came home and spend 3 hours crying saying he wants to die. Because this woman has become a psycho and told him that the night before she wanted to drive to our house at 3am and have a confrontation. Because she promised to destroy him and his world. How do you still have compassion for the woman who promised to destroy your world which included your kids? For the woman who follows you in the shopping centre when you are with your wife and kid hoping for a confrontation (in front of your 10yo)?

No way I’ll have any compassion for her, she shown none for me when I actually didn’t have a choice in this matter. I am the only one who’s been thrown in a situation I didn’t have a say in.

As for my WH I hope he learnt his lesson. I don’t have much compassion for him either as he brought this onto us. A psycho woman in a marriage that was pretty much close to perfect. I hate it when people get bored of their almost perfect lives and decide they need more without allowing their spouse first chance to offer that “more”.

[This message edited by Luna10 at 8:29 AM, March 29th (Thursday)]

You have touched on something I've been feeling for a while now. I have seen at least 3 posters that have come here looking for support and being driven off in a matter of days. Many newbie WS make the mistake of removing the stop sign on their initial posts. This is not a dig at BS at all but most WS are not in a mindset to deal with the understandable pain that BS are dealing with. Granted the Wayward forum is protected but most BS are in such pain that it fairly radiates from these pages and is very painful to read.

What isn't so understandable are the attitudes of some of the WS. Each and every WS has been (more or less) in the same spot as every other WS yet they seem to have forgotten what it was like to be in that day 1 mindset. You are flailing about, most are still in the fog, defensive, emotionally wrecked, whatever. Instead of trying to welcome these people and draw them in, many feel is it ok to start swinging the 2x4's.

I agree with this 100%. I know that when I first came one I stayed away a long time after that. And in posts after that I would leave for long periods. We have to help folks where they are in the situation. I think it's hard sometimes for even us Waywards because these people sometimes trigger us as much as they do the betrayeds just in another way. I get the mentality that by giving them hard love they see the error in their ways...but I just don't think that happens on day 1.

On the other hand, this is a forum for surviving infidelity. Even on the cover it talks about it being for betrayeds and remorseful waywards. If they come back and participate they have come to terms with what they did and maybe then belong more to this forum.

It's just a shame we don't have a bubble type forum for those who are still in the fog like we have for those who just found out. But, when I think about that, all the just found out people would be going in there and it would derail them completely. So, I don't know what the answer is, except that maybe if there are enough of us that are sensitive enough to give folks the next best steps, then possibly that will just be enough. Even I sometimes feel frustrated because talking to a new Wayward is often like talking to a wall. They can't see anything one step ahead of them, and they are just frozen. It would maybe just help if they couldn't remove the stop sign on their first post.

Best wishes for the AP.

I would maybe go so far as to say that I understand that my XWW's APs are all imperfect humans, but that's it.

If they were on fire, I wouldn't put any of them out.

Rocket,

Personally, it took me a long time to learn this.

There is A LOT of gray area in the subject of infidelity.

Wherever people start threads ( be it JFO, Reconciliation, Divorce, Wayward) they are soliciting opinions of the entire forum.

So chances are whatever you post, there will always be some people who will disagree with you, some may even strongly disagree.

Wherever people start threads, some people may give gentle advice, not so gentle advice or harsh or brutal advice.

Yes, there is plenty of craziness, drama and chaos that comes with posting in an infidelity forum.

I used to let the craziness, drama and chaos get to me and took it personally.

Once I learned how to ignore and move past all the craziness, drama and chaos, I found lots of wisdom , support and kindness.

My advice to you please don't be discouraged by the bad things that happen in an infidelity forum.

Once you are able to past the negative aspects of posting in an infidelity forum, I guarantee that you will find plenty of good.

Tell you what, I think I've got this.

I think we can agree to humane treatment for prisoners, right? Regardless of their crime, I don't want people mistreated in prison, or tortured. That's pretty universal I would assume.

Now, what about the prisoner that killed your wife or child? Taking away the generalization, how about that person in particular.

And yes, I think your discomfort is rooted in the fact that YOU are an AP as well. That YOU meticulously destroyed someone else's life so that you could get your rocks off. That someone's marriage bond, in addition to your own, wasn't enough to stop you from ruining someone's life, and taking away their safety. That YOU don't want to see yourself through that lens.

You have a long way to go.

Rocket80,

I understand where you are coming from with the bashing and name calling of Waywards.

I have never in my entire life considered myself a whore, monster, POS or any other derogatory name. But this is the first time that I have actually posted it on SI because I feared the backlash.

After doing the work to heal, I was strong enough to forgive myself and let go of all shame, guilt and self-loathing. I have embraced the new me and so has my BH.

That strength and change is what now makes me a safe partner and it is what will not allow me to be disrespected in anyway. It is also why I can honestly say that I love the person I have become.

So even after doing the work to heal, I still had fear of being judged and accused of not being or feeling remorseful. All because of how I feel about myself.

It was that fear that prevented me from acknowledging on SI my progress in healing and that is sad.

As you can see, I have been working on the fear of what others think of me and I am pretty sure that I just kicked it's ass.

Seriously, I do value other perspectives, opinions and viewpoints. There have been so many that have opened my eyes, gave me pause and taught me something. I am still learning and working.

My affair was not like that at all. It was still a terrible thing to do, but it differs so much from what you describe. Maybe that's the point I am missing.

Rocket80 - so true. Every affair is different and I do have more compassion for you then other waywards like my FWH who had a year long affair with a MOW mother of 4 who actually had sex with her with her husband and children home (very large house) when I was with my dying father.

I'm sure you understand where all of the anger comes from. It's hard for many of us to understand this kind of behavior when we could never do that - yes and we know we couldn't. I was separated from my FWH for months and had many opportunities to "date" and still didn't because I was married and my grown children needed someone they could look up to and respect after what their father did. I also knew that "that" wasn't the answer..

My WW is the one who betrayed me. She also gave me the greatest gift of my life and most of the greatest moments. I haven't forgiven her, I am very angry and I blame her 100%. There is still some love there though, and probably always will be regardless of the outcome.

As for OM, he has tried to cheat with at least 3 women at his current job (that I know of). He had a harassment charge filed against him at a previous job. He has a pattern of trying to cheat on his wife by exploiting women who open up to him more than they should. It's still on my wife, she shouldn't have opened that door and damn sure shouldn't have let him ooze through it, but he IS a p o s. He didn't take any oaths to me, but he was a guest in my home a couple times and then later returned to desecrate it. That breaks my code (although sleeping with a married woman breaks it as well... so maybe this is splitting hairs). He is not the mother of my child, nor a 20 year companion who shared amazing moments with me. I owe him nothing and my description of him is accurate.

If you are like him, then you should own it. My WW did some awful things and she needs to own that as well. OBW would be well within her rights to describe my WW in the same terms, except that (as far as I understand things) she did not set out to make this happen.

Lazarus - I assure you I am not like him. But I did kiss another woman and actually thought I had feelings for her. So yeah, I do own that - who else could own it except for me?

Sorry for your situation.

I think that what people are maybe trying to articulate is that most people see it as a goal to get the wayward to a point of indifference. It's not about wishing hate on the AP or wishing them well. Its about not wishing at all either way.

To let them go, for them to not take up space in your head at all...If someone brought her up for you to just shrug your shoulders, she means nothing either way...

I am a BS, and my former spouse did many horrible things. I would never reconcile with her. And i would never reconcile with anyone else moving forward.

Having said that, i do believe that waywards can put in the hard work, and become a person that is safe in the future. It won't be in my future as long as i know about it. But that's just me personally. And that is why i do occasionally post in this board, i don't swing too big of a 2x4. I try to give perspective.

At some point people have to face the fact that they did terrible things, that they are a WS and a AP. that's them. That's who they are at the time . Have to admit it, own it. Then figure out how to work on becoming a better person.

[This message edited by mizunomead at 1:39 PM, March 29th (Thursday)]

Lazarus - I assure you I am not like him. But I did kiss another woman and actually thought I had feelings for her. So yeah, I do own that - who else could own it except for me?

The way you speak of your own infidelity is as if it was a story in a book that you read. I think that's what is coming across.

I guess I wasn't able to shrug off the betrayal. Good on you and your wife if that's working for you.

Rocket - how does your wife see the OW? What does the OW represent to your wife?

I'm glad that you're processing all this. I can see it as you write. But it sounds like you still have a great deal of fond memories of the OW. I don't think hatred of her is necessary (though hatred of the A is probably a good sign), just indifference. But it doesn't sound like you've reached indifference yet.

Picture this: imagine if, in each of those instances of your A with the OW, your wife was there having to witness it. How do you think she would feel? Do you feel you've gotten to see the full gamut of your wife's emotions in response to your betrayal of her? Can you walk in her shoes? How did you two overcome the barrier on kissing? Did she get mind movies?

You're still very early out. Your wife might be healing quickly... Or later, something might really sink in for her and hurt her more. She might suddenly become withdrawn, or angry, or sad. How would you handle that?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:08 PM, March 29th (Thursday)]

I think that what people are maybe trying to articulate is that most people see it as a goal to get the wayward to a point of indifference.

Absolutely, which doesn't happen for most right away.

It's not about wishing hate on the AP or wishing them well.

My wife wanted me to at first. I came to indifference pretty quickly after I realized that what I missed was something I was never entitled to. Having unrealistic needs and wants filled in a cruel way. I did reach anger when the APs wouldn't leave my wife alone or myself.

I would venture the goal for most BS would be indifference, but certainly for most new BS they wouldn't want their husband to "wish the AP well". I know that my wife wasn't happy with that. Those women stepped into her yard and stole from her, even if I was the one that opened the door. If they are new, why would they want us to be happy for the AP that emotionally helped us to fuck them over? It is a lot to ask a new BS to see the AP as just another "broken" person. Personally I don't think we have any right or entitlement to mourn for anything or anyone so emotionally damaging to our BS. It is just disgusting IMO and it just pours salt into the wounds of the BS. The quicker you see it for what it is, the less pain your BS has to endure at your own hands while one mourns for a "broken" person.

For me, it took seeing the affair for what it was and the APs for who they are to get out of the fog. I am glad I had people here to swing the 2x4 to see the reality of it and get out of the fog quicker so my BS didn't have to suffer at my hands more. Seeing it for the "raw" of a cruel person worked better than just saying "broken" at the time. Seeing someone as "bad" was better to get me out of fog mindset. Broken wasn't an impact or immediate for me. Broken was always there. Broken led me to an affair and got me entitled to behave how I wanted. Broken got to me finding broken. Cruel and an asshole had an impact. Cruel abuser had the affair. That got me to see myself and take action. Fuck any pain I was feeling in withdrawal. I brought it upon myself and I certainly was never entitled to compassion in the beginning. I was way overdue to stop focusing on myself and my feelings and to focus on what my wife was feeling at my expense. Yeah, there is withdrawal. Point is it is over something (or apparently someone for some of you) sick and unhealthy. Put in that mindset, WTF are you mourning for? Put that way, the withdrawal went out the door really quickly for me. Mourning for someone/something that just helped you to be the worse version of yourself and that helped you to fuck over someone you claim to love. Why would anyone need compassion for that?

Like everything it also depends upon who and what the APs are. No matter what, they and us are all the same- we were willing to do cruel intentional things on the backs of others to get our fix with a choice of how much pain we were willing to inflict to get there. If a BS can muster compassion and grace for people that do that to them in spite of the pain we have inflicted, then that makes them all the more amazing. I certainly can understand if that doesn't happen and that is no fault of theirs. Of course- How a BS feels about the AP depends upon so many factors.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 2:42 PM, March 29th (Thursday)]

The way you speak of your own infidelity is as if it was a story in a book that you read. I think that's what is coming across.

I feel I've told my story in a way that can be understood. I'm not in the beginning of things where I'm spinning all over like I was. So, when asked for my story, I tell it as a story. Not sure why this is a problem.

I guess I wasn't able to shrug off the betrayal. Good on you and your wife if that's working for you.

At no time has my wife shrugged off betrayal. Just because our situation is different from yours doesn't mean it's all been easy. We've had some very difficult conversations at home and in counseling.

how does your wife see the OW? What does the OW represent to your wife?

She sees her as someone who made the same mistakes that I did. She doesn't hate her - they've talked and the OW apologized. I think she represents a very low point in our marriage.

But it sounds like you still have a great deal of fond memories of the OW. I don't think hatred of her is necessary (though hatred of the A is probably a good sign), just indifference. But it doesn't sound like you've reached indifference yet.

Maybe you are right. I don't know. I don't feel any romantic feelings at all. And I feel a lot of shame when I think of her.

How did you two overcome the barrier on kissing? Did she get mind movies?

It took some time. But I think my wife wanted to "take back" what I'd given away if that makes any sense. But it did take some time. At first she wouldn't even look at me.

You're still very early out. Your wife might be healing quickly... Or later, something might really sink in for her and hurt her more. She might suddenly become withdrawn, or angry, or sad. How would you handle that?

As I've said, we are continuing MC and I am always checking in with her. There could be setbacks and we've talked about that. She's promised to tell me if she finds herself in a bad place. We've had less and less of those as time goes on.

Not that it really matters, but we never had sex of any type.

To this BS, kissing is sex. I would bet a lot that I'm not alone in that. You can keep denying your minimization, but - you're minimizing your A.

One way we help each other is to confront each others' misconceptions. It's not pleasant to be on the receiving end of those confrontations, but the stuff one doesn't like to read is often the stuff that that one should pay most attention to..

I know I jumped on you earlier in this thread, but I think in the end you ended up doing the right thing here.

If my EX had come to me with the same situation, I would have initially been pissed, but if I dug deeper I would have been able to forgive. When things got started on the physical part, you stopped at a kiss. This seems to be a rare occurrence. Most of the time once it gets to that stage the jump into sex becomes easy. My EX went from kissing right into full core sex the same day. You showed restraint, where most others don’t. Not only that you realized the dynamic of the couples relationship was forever altered, and you confessed.

Still doesn’t make it right, but you got to the cliff and didn’t jump. Big difference than most of the stories here