SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I just have to say WOW! You're an inspiration. I'm going to reread this thread topic because u really are handling this awesomely.

DrivingPast, here is the Healthy Boundaries thread:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=231851

It took me a really long time to deliver all my boundaries this way, but WH really appreciated it. You might try just doing one boundary with your spouse this way, to give you practice on your delivery and get an idea how he responds to it. I think it's possible to do all the elements in a different order as long as you do them all, if he responds to it better, for example.

It just tremendous in making you sound sane, logical, delivering the message in a place of love, etc and not a crazy revengeful bitch hellbent on controlling your spouse and making his life a living hell, LOL. Or that you are his mommy.

I just remembered something that is a perfect metaphor for what is going on with me, and probably most of us.

Since dday, I have been to the dentist for the first time in years. I had a filling almost come out, and I made an emergency appointment to get it fixed. One of WH's coworkers, she gave me a list of every medical person I could ever need (except psych help, LOL) when we moved here, and all her recommendations have been spot-on fantastic, tremendously capable people. So I have total faith in this dentist because of her track record with everyone else she's recommended. Yet I've never actually *met* this coworker.

Anyway, I went and he did not like what he saw. He said the (white) filling probably looked good at installation, but it was of poor quality and not installed well. That's why it only lasted five years. There was significant decay under it, to the point that he said most dentists would just say root canal and call it a day. But he was going to try to save it. He couldn't promise anything but he'd try. And whenever the filling he put in outlived its usefulness (because they don't last decades usually and I plan to live a long time LOL) I would definitely have to have a root canal. So I told him to put a silver filling in there so I could put that off as long as possible. He laughed and said, I don't want to be the guy that puts the first silver filling in your otherwise beautiful teeth. But he did, and he was able to save it, barely.

He also looked at my xrays and said that it was really interesting. From external view, my teeth looked really good. But the xrays told another story. There was significant decay and damage in multiple places you could not see, but boy could you see it on the xrays. Under my couple other substandard fillings. Between teeth. At the gumline but inside my mouth. All of it fixable but had to be done carefully and fairly soon before the damage was critical. If I wanted to, he could do it all in a half day appointment if it was too hard for me to make multiple ones, but he really recommended just doing an hour at a time until it got done, because he could give each problem the attention it needed and maybe not have to do as much damage control in the long run.

All this occurred over two appointments, the first emergency one and the second regular full exam. WH has happy to drop everything to watch our youngest so I could get the emergency work done, was less than thrilled to do it the second time for the regular exam, and was pissed off and not very pleasant when got the appointment time wrong (it was 45 minutes later than I thought) and it ran long. Why don't I have a babysitter in place for this stuff, he said. I can't just drop everything indefinitely when you have a problem.

Such a good metaphor for my life. Everything looks good on the outside, but it's all rotten on the inside and in dire need of treatment. The previous fillings that are failing are from a dentist WH told me was fantastic. I can trust a total stranger more than him for my personal welfare, apparently. But I still have to rely on him to get the help I need, even if indirectly. WH is more than happy to help me when I need triage, but less than supportive for the general maintenance of my healing. And to fix my issues, I can go with baptism by fire but it won't be the best course of action. I have to be patient and take it slow so everything is done correctly, the first time, so I can save as much of me as I can. And I need to get outside help to do it, because WH isn't able to do it and I can't do it alone.

Ugh. Reality bites.

So an update...

My parents have been visiting for a week. They don't know. They have been spending time with the kids and letting us have some kid-free time.

We actually spent a night away from home in a nice hotel. I was afraid I would trigger out since that's how you generally hook up with hookers, but I was so excited to actually go out someplace nice, sleep eight hours straight, etc that it wasn't a real problem. I still have mind movies and think about his infidelity several times a day, but it doesn't always send me into a faunchfest like it used to. We were able to go out and reconnect and have a good time. It was nice.

I will recap the last class in a future post, I can't get into it until after I drop the parents off at the airport. The good thing is I really liked the therapist who presented the last class and I am going to contact her for my IC.

I still need to get a po box and submit a few straggling docs to the lawyer. I'm going to miss the next class because I am going out for a girls' weekend. I try to do this at least once a year, and I really need it now more than ever. I'm pissed I have to miss the class about relapses, but if they had told me their stupid syllabus beforehand I could have moved the weekend to another date. But WH is going and has promised to take copious notes.

I just keep on swimming, like Dory says, LOL. T guess since it's only been three months I am probably still in shock, but it is what it is.

Got my PO box today. So now the lawyer can send me stuff securely. And anybody else, for that matter. Why didn't I do this the day after dday, I don't know.

The therapist I liked still hasn't called back. I'd call again but I'm heading out for my girls' weekend tomorrow, and I don't want her calling during that.

WH told me last night his CSAT called him to follow up on a therapy plan. He has not talked to the CSAT at all since the appointment I went to with him. I reminded him that they are going to cover that in the class in two weeks, so that's probably why. WH said he needs to think about it some more, decide if he wants to continue with this CSAT or go with another one, and that he needs to check out the SA/SAA/RAC groups to see if they might work better. I don't see it happening soon since I'm leaving for the weekend - managing our three kids solo is challenging at best, LOL. But at least he has acknowledged he needs to do it. Only time will tell if he really does it.

Promised a followup on my STD testing in a previous post in this thread. Just now getting around to it.

I opted for every test available to me:

herpes simplex i and herpes simplex ii

atopobium vaginae (bacterial vaginosis)

clamhydia trach by multiplex pcr

GC by multiplex pcr (gonnorea)

various bacterial STD infections:

ureaplasma by multiplex pcr

mycoplasma genitalium by multiplex pcr

trichomonas by multiplex pcr

gardnerella by multiplex pcr

mobiluncus mulieris by multiplex pcr

mobiluncus curtisi by multiplex pcr

Various yeast tests:

c. tropicalis

c. krusei

c. dubliniensus

c. glabrata

c. parapsilosis

c. albicans

Blood test for HIV and syphillis.

Pap smear for HPV.

And WH went to Planned parenthood and got the HIV, syphillis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, and herpes tests. I don't know that all the other tests are available to males but I'm pretty sure most are not.

As far as I know, those are all the tests you can take. So if you want an exhaustive list, here it is LOL.

Nuther update, LOL.

So I had my girls weekend. Whee! Boy did I need that. Got to indulge in food and shopping and sleep late and not worry about kids, etc. WH held down the fort and from my surveillance, only went where he said he went with the kids, behaved, and even checked out various 12 step groups and such on the computer. He took notes on the class I missed, but I haven't had a chance to read them yet. I think he got a glimpse of single dadness and it kicked his but, ROFL. He was very happy to see me when I got home, that's for sure.

The therapist also called me while I was on the weekend. So that's good, I can still get on her calendar and perhaps she can do weekend appointments too since she actually called on a weekend. I didn't try to call her back, as my friend I was out with still doesn't know, and I didn't want to spoil my weekend with worrying about infidelity any more than I had to.

I still had some swirling vortex of thoughts moments on my weekend, but I am learning to manage them better. WH let his phone run down, and fell asleep (not uncommon on a night when he is primarily responsible for the kids, LOL), and when I couldn't reach him it gave me some minor panic. He asked me later why I didn't just call his work cell, and I told him it wasn't MY responsibility to gain trust in him. I wouldn't have been pissy about it if he had just said, oops, sorry, I didn't do it on purpose *first* instead of pushing back on me, but of course he didn't.

So this week I need to finish the straggly docs for the lawyer, connect with the therapist and get an appointment on the calendar, and catch up on the class I missed. Then I need to get prepared for WH to go on a three day business trip without going bonkers. It is way too soon from dday for him to be doing this, but this is a trip that cannot be avoided. Ugh.

(((hathnofury))) you are kicking ass & taking names...you are my hero!!!!

You are strong!! I still am working on the 180-it's about a month out for us now. Glad you have such a great perspective and took steps to protect yourself and your children.

So last night I was exhausted. I walked a great deal on my girls' weekend (miles!) and I had a hard workout earlier in the day, after not working out for a while. I was too tired to have any sort of real discussion. But WH wanted to discuss his trip.

He told me he what had changed on the itinerary and who else was now going/not going. He asked for me to list his ground rules and my expecations. He said I want you to be comfortable with this, what can I do to make you comfortable with this.

Since I was exhausted, I didn't really mince words. I said I and *NOT* comfortable with this, not at all. It's too soon from dday for you to be taking a trip like this. But I know you have to go, so we will work through this together. And he held me tight and thanked me.

I told him to just send me his agenda each day, and to text me as much as feasible as he moved on from each activity - mainly so I wouldn't try to call him during a bad time. He offered to send pictures, but since I don't know this place it's not worth blowing up my phone with pix I don't have context for. He's going to keep receipts, etc. He feels bad they didn't give him enough notice for us to have tried to arrange for one of our parents to be here so I could go too.

But honestly what does it matter. Like I said, it's easy to sneak off, and it's easy to have a hooker in his hotel room anyway. It's easy to say he is in a meeting when he is not. I can GPS him but I don't know this area and like I said, he could be where he said he'd be and still be doing something bad. Hell, I could have gone with him, and go off shopping or for a massage when he said he had a meeting and have a hooker in our room.

I can't stop it if he decides to stray. I can't put up enough surveillance to catch everything. It's just going to take time to build the trust and be able to tell from my gut if something's awry.

Ugh. Not looking forward to this trip.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 8:16 AM, October 11th (Tuesday)]

I haven't popped in here in a while & thought I'd stop by & check in with you. It sounds like you're holding your own, & that's great. I'd be anxious & scared about the trip if I were you, so hopefully you guys can work out whatever it takes for you to feel as safe as possible while he's gone.

~ Sabina

So this is my new dilemma, other than the stupid trip he has to go on.

I've been following another SI's story, another spouse of a SA. Her story in many ways is similar to mine, and it breaks my heart. It is so easy for me to suggest to her what to do, but so hard for me to follow my own advice in my situation.

My main problem right now is WH does not want to admit he is an addict. Thus, he wants to be able to pick and choose his treatment. He admits there are issues that need to be addressed, but he wants to address them on his own terms. Not at the expense of not meeting my boundaries, mind you, but he wants to remain in control of his destiny, so to speak.

First, for those not familiar with the addiction cycle, this is totally normal. It's called a "dry drunk" phase. They think because they *can* quit (at least for the time being) they must not really be an addict. It's a sort of rite of passage many addicts have to go through before they can accept reality and/or hit rock bottom. It's totally frustrating for anyone on the outside though, because it's like watching your kids learn the hard way to how not to do something.

Anyway. So here's the dilemma:

He is remorseful as he can be given his addiction status. It kills him to see what pain he has caused me, although I don't think he is capable at the moment to truly appreciate the scope of the betrayal.

He accepts responsibility for what he has done and makes no excuses for it. He owns his shit.

He is willing to be transparent and have no secrets. He's willing to accommodate my need to verify what he does or says as needed. He'll call when I ask, send pictures, etc.

He respects my boundaries and requirements. He wants to try to do whatever he can to make me feel safe and regain his trust.

He accepts he is broken and needs to be fixed, and is willing to do the work to fix himself, support my healing, rebuild the M.

These are all good things.

However he does not accept that he is an addict, yet. He sees he has significant relevant issues to SA, but does not feel he is a true SA. And therein lies a really big problem.

He can't do the work to fix himself, support my healing, rebuild the marriage until he can admit he is an addict. He can try, and maybe even make *some* progress since he admits there is a problem, but he will never truly recover and be able to R until he can fix the source of his problems. And he can't do that without admitting he is an addict.

So I have to figure out what do I do if he never accepts it. And how long do I wait? What role do I want to play, if any, in getting him to see the light? Because on one hand, I don't want to leave without feeling like I did everything I could to save the M, and the father of my kids. But at the same time I can only lead a horse to water, can't make him drink. Any effort doing this takes away from putting my focus back on me and my healing. And to make matters worse, any person off the street or non-CSAT therapist would probably wonder why everything that has occurred thus far isn't enough and to just wait for the trust and safety I will surely feel in time.

Sucks.

And how long do I wait? What role do I want to play, if any, in getting him to see the light?

How long do you wait? Until he 'accepts' the diagnosis & starts treatment in earnest, you mean? Only you can determine the answer to that. Truly. My SAWH told me last December (6 months after diagnosis) that he isn't an addict of any type. It took me several months to really believe him. It has been ten months since he first said that to me & I'm planning to S as soon as I can support myself & our DS. See my profile for details.

I'd advise you not to do anything about pushing him along. Enforce whatever boundaries you've set. I say that only from personal experience. I spent months trying to 'help SAWH along', which, in my case, is co-dependent because I was trying to fulfill my need for him to step up & deal with everything. Letting go of him & his shit as I can while I'm living here has been the best thing for me. I'm still angry and frustrated with SAWH and I still struggle to enforce boundaries with him. But I know I'm doing the best I can & I'm actively working my program and my plan. So- work your plan & get healthy. He'll have to move along at his own pace.

~ Sabina

[This message edited by SabinatheOwl at 7:44 AM, October 12th (Wednesday)]

FML. My cell spyware expired today, and I can't pay for it through untrackable means like I did initially. I have to let it go. It's kind of stupid, it really doesn't do much in the way of tracking what I need now but because it is expiring right before his first business trip I'm all flustered and pissed off.

Also I have had a reality check today. It has been brought to my attention how easily WH can do anonymous hookups. I mean, I knew that he'd have to go underground and go that route to continue to act out, but I had it in my head it took some effort and planning. Nope, not really. If he already knows where he can go, he can go any time. He wouldn't even need an untraceable app to do it, and of course he could do it that way too.

WH leaves for his trip today. It's going to be a long week.

Get a friend to pay for it for you and reimburse her with cash.

Lynn, I could but technically it is not legal here. I didn't find out until after I purchased it the first time. And in all honesty it is not particularly helpful in my situation. Most of the features it is good for will not track his MO for acting out.

I reread the whole thread today. Got me back on track to remember what I forgot to do and to remind WH how long it has been since I made certain requirements clear. He's called me twice already trying to be helpful, but I got so many other things to do IDK I'm going to have time to worry about him today.

So this morning, when wh called to check in with me while on his trip, I brought up some of my boundaries. That he had committed to checking out a 12 step and needed to either go back to his CSAT or find a new one, and I hadn't seen any progress on that front.

He told me while I was gone on my trip, he found three different 12 step groups not terribly far away. He wants to go to each one once to get a feel for them, since they can vary so widely. And he said he'd probably just go back to his CSAT at least once to get a treatment plan established, because it would take too much time to start over with a new one. I reminded him he could have his diagnosis tests sent anywhere to speed up the process if he wanted a different therapist, but I think he thinks once the plan is in written up it would be easier to switch then if he wants. My guess is it is all going to depend largely on how the CSAT handles the next session if is switches or not.

He then launched into how he couldn't commit three hours a week to 12 step, etc, not knowing I haven't had a chance to read his notes from the last class yet. Evidently people that go at least that much have a better chance at recover than those that go less, go figure. I told him he's already in the weekly class, and needs to go visit his CSAT for his plan, and check out the 12 steps in the next month, that's plenty to focus on right now.

So now I guess I better go read the notes on the class. Because who knows what else I'm missing.

Gah.

I've looked at the notes from the class about relapses. In all the classes thus far, they've had a powerpoint presentation with lots of bulletpoints and graphs, and they send home the thumbnail handouts so you don't have to take copious notes. But WH was to take notes on anything that was not covered in the handout or not overly obvious from the notes.

Two things stand out that he wrote in addition to the rest of the stuff already there in print:

The minimum three hour a week commitment to 12 step programs that he mentioned in the phone call.

Then in the parts about how to deal with a relapse, what the procedure was (go to your sponsor, go to your 12 step group, talk it out and make a plan), was "Does your spouse want to know?" In two places. Basically stating that it is the spouse's choice to know whether relapse has happened, and they don't really play a key role in it anyway whether they are. I need to talk with him further about this to make sure I have the context right, but that's what it looks like from where I'm sitting.

This scares me. Why? Because:

He's not willing to make the time commitment to ensure maximum chance at recovery. Yes, three hours is a lot of time, but not compared to the time he spent acting out. Granted, his acting out time was a whole lot more flexible, but he could do weekends, late nights, etc in 12 step crap. It's possible I just need to say this for him to reconsider, but frankly I am tired of being Captain Obvious. He needs to be taking charge of his own stuff.

I'm not surprised at the reduced role of the spouse in a relapse situation. What bothers me is that he wrote it twice. Without any real explanation or effort at context. It's possible he thought it would be easier to explain verbally, but to me it just looks like he's trying to tell me I shouldn't want to know, I have the option and should take it. I'm trying really hard not to take this personally or read stuff into this that may not be there, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's cueing my gut.

Ugh.

It's very hard to express feelings in writing so forgive me if I'm misreading you...I think you want more control over his recovery than you really have. 3 hours is an arbitrary time. Is that 3 meetings? Or 1 meeting + an hour after talking with other SAs and potential sponsors, and 1 hour of step work? I agree that he spent far more time on his addiction, they always do. He'll find that it is an easier 3 hours then he thinks. And there's always potential online meetings that he can attend if that's not too triggery for you. But it's not any one's call but his. Because the bitter truth is that it IS HIS recovery or it's no one's. And he does need to find a meeting that's a good fit, IMO.

SLIPS Very common, to our dismay. And they feed the trauma in our souls. On one hand, we need there to be open transparency, so we want to know about them. On the other, they destroy us, at least for awhile. It is our decision to know or not. And our decision to impose the consequences for those slips.

But ultimately, he needs to deal with the slips with a sponsor and his IC. Because YOU CANNOT be his accountability partner.

If it helps in any way, my SAfWH felt the same way about meetings, disparaged those he called "addicted" to meetings. For the record, he went to 2 a week, sometimes only one, sometimes none when our schedule was crazy. But we were either attending the SA ed course or he was going to see his IC or we were going to a monthly "couples" meeting, so some recovery work was done several times a week. My SAfWH whiteknuckled it for a long time. Still hasn't accepted the first step because he can't get to the "higher power" thing in his head. And won't accept that he's powerless. His slips prove to me that he is, so he needs his fellow SAs but he, addicts, are so smart, they need no one. Go Figure. It's why you got here in the first place, dimwit. He's getting there. Baby steps. Progress not perfection.

His slips have all been accessing stuff on the internet in an anonymous way, that is, no chat rooms or messaging or that. What I know of. Could be more. My gut says no. It has progressively gone from PORN to semi porn, to attractive sportswomen, LOTS of them. So, unlike his addiction, it has lessened in intensity. It's all a slip, a way to escape the anger and not FEEL, and because of his history it still SCARES ME TO DEATH.

So yeah, slips, probably inevitable. It's how he and you and sponsors deal with them that determine the next step. But you and I don't have any control over whether or not they happen. You have done a phenomenal job of setting boundaries, protecting your interests etc. Now it's up to him to heal himself. You can't do that. ((((((((HHNF)))))))))

[This message edited by scaredyKat at 5:55 PM, October 13th (Thursday)]

ScaredyKat,I think the three hours is a sort of arbitrary number, I think they meant anyone that spends at least three hours a week in 12 step type stuff will more likely be more successful in recovery than those that do not. Well, duh. And I also could see how just one meeting could possibly take three hours, IDK, depending on what all went on. I know I can't dictate how much/often he goes, or if he goes at all. I can only say that he needs to make the effort to try it in good faith if he wants to show he is committed to fixing his issues and making me feel safer. If he doesn't then I know where I stand.

I really don't give a rats' ass specifically how many hours he spends in therapy/12 step. You go as much as you can, as much as you need, to get 'er done, KWIM? Whatever helps and shows progress. What I resent is the immediately finding excuses he can't do it because it would take so much time, etc. The approach, the wording of it. Not, wow, that's a lot of time, I'll see what I can do but instead there is NO WAY I can do three hours, never. Whatever. More of the dry drunk thing I guess. Fog talk, IDK.

And again, I totally get the role of the spouse in the relapse thing, leave it to the pros is always best. Like I said my second point of what he wrote sticks out because he didn't add a whole lot of notes to begin with, but this he put twice. Why? I won't know until he gets back to explain it to me. It could very well just be part of the way the presenter gave the info, or it could be a subconscious way of WH telling me to back off. Or wanting to protect me. IDK. WTH.

Perhaps I am trying to seek control where there is none to be had. IDK. I think probably a lot of it is just plain old BS rage, where we don't understand why someone who would do something like this to their spouse wouldn't want to to move heaven and earth to fix what they did. Why is their any hesitation or resistance at all? How can they live with themselves with any less, LOL. Remember I'm still less than four months out, there is still a lot of pain here. It clouds judgment and expectations for sure.