SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks, NowWhat. I'm not sure what would be harder, playing it straight like I don't know until formal disclosure, which could take weeks/months to take place...or wait all that time and find out he's still lying. Or even worse, that it is ten times worse than I thought.

In theory his plan is to come clean at disclosure, per his sponsor and CSAT's directives. Like I said, I just don't know that I can sit on this that long. I've waited too long already on him to catch up with me on recovery.

But then again, so much at stake. My post nup is not finalized - and I NEED full custody to feel safe. We just bought this damn house, which I love, but clearly would have reconsidered given the full story. I just have so much thinking to do and for once it is not clear what is the best course of action.

More hugs to you. I can hear the pain and uncertainty in your post.

You have been so focused and healthy in setting up protective measures for yourself. I'd suggest that, at the very least, you focus on getting the post nup finalized right now. You are absolutely right--you need that and full custody to protect yourself and your family.

The thinking that you need to do will happen throughout every second, as you know too well. Try to focus, as you have so well up to now, on taking care of yourself and getting your protections finalized and set. That will buy you some time to think this through, as well.

I know what you're feeling. I don't know if I could last through any more revelations at this point. There comes a time when, no matter how much we love them, if they can't stand beside us and offer a healthy future, it just won't work.

I wish you wisdom and strength as you work through this. Lean on us when you need to. We're all still pulling for you.

So another update...

I had some time to stew and consult others more savvy than me. This was what I would up telling my SAWH what my new boundaries are:

I'm fast-tracking the post nup, and I am getting more spousal support in the agreement. He will sign it without dragging his feet, or it's game over.

I am insisting on a meeting with his CSAT. I am also insisting on scheduling formal disclosure ASAP. I told him to tell his CSAT at his appointment last week. If it is not scheduled by the end of the month, he is sleeping elsewhere until it does.

What he doesn't know is I need to hear straight from the horse's mouth why I haven't had formal disclosure yet, basically to find out if it is SAWH that is holding things up. I also need to see if I know more about SAWH's history than the CSAT does, since SAWH claims he has been 100% honest with him. If either of things things turn out to be true, it is game over.

I told him I was struggling with whether to tell his mother. This was a consequence I laid out when we did our informal disclosure between the two of us, and it was one of several if I found out he held back significant facts. I told him he clearly has been using her funds for his activities, and she needs to know if she gives him money, it may go to that since it has in the past. The only thing holding me back from doing it is it may very well kill her, if not literally, figuratively. I told him that I was taking a huge risk discussing it with him first, since he could gaslight her and such now to not believe me if I do. I told him if I found out he does that, it is game over.

So how did he respond?

Zero resistance on the post nup and its new terms. Only that he may tweak wording since that is what he does for a living, but nothing that is not in the spirit of the agreement. This probably means his history is way worse than I know, or at least he thinks it is.

Some resistance on the disclosure, but only the deadline. Primarily because it is difficult to schedule our CSATs for it within that time frame. Asked to consider letting him sleep in the basement if it went past the deadline for budgetary reasons, or that we do it ourselves without the CSATs if their schedules couldn't accommodate that date. I said I would consider both options, but now I'm thinking NO. I need my CSAT there, and he's had a whole freaking year to to this.

On his mother, he asked that I consider it carefully, as it is a bell that can't be unrung. True. But I pointed out she'd find out eventually, because among the 12 steps is to make amends for their wrongdoings, and he will have to own his shit and tell her what he did with her money as a result of his wrongdoings. I don't think he had considered that, and he looked very defeated at that point.

I had previously said he had to step up his 12 step meetings. Told him phone meetings were acceptable. To not do so meant he was not serious about recovery, and I was not interested in a relationship of any kind with him if that was the case.

He is supposedly going to another meeting tonight, one he hasn't been to before, that meets the same time I have my group therapy (so a sitter is accounted for, I am not home alone with the kids for him to go). I also saw him looking up the procdures for the phone meetings (there are something like ten a day, no way he couldn't find something that he could do there).

I have put a call into his CSAT. SAWH said that CSAT said he needed to touch bases with my CSAT before calling me back, offered to play a voicemail confirming this. I would rather get it straight from the horse's mouth at this point. I offered that he sit in on my session with my CSAT this week if it's helpful.

I find out more stuff every day, the evidence just keeps coming. It is disgusting and very traumatizing. As pissed as I am it took a year to find all this out, I am partially thankful it did because it may have killed me a year ago. I'm much stronger now, and have tools and support in place to help me make better decisions. I was in no condition to make any important decisions a year ago.

Will this be the end of Mr. Hathnofury? I don't know. Only time will tell. And the next couple of weeks will be very telling.

As always, I'm in awe, hathnofury. You get hit again, and you come right back with a new plan and renewed strength. You are a model for all of us of how to take real, effective action to protect ourselves and our hearts.

That said, I can also feel the pain and the weariness in your post. YOu have been through so much and you have held everything together for your family. At a time when your WH F-ed up your entire universe, you shouldered everything and have supported him through his own recovery, as well. You have been incredibly generous and loyal.

I hope that you are going to get some resolution soon, one way or another. It sounds like you are moving decisively towards a place where you will know what you need to know to stay or go.

I wish that resolution for you and peace in whatever it is. You so deserve to have someone take care of YOU for awhile, other than yourself, that is--you have done an awesome job of being true to yourself throughout all of this.

Wishing you the outcome that you most need.

I thought you had disclosure last September or so. Is this a different disclosure?

Edited to add - I think I see - full disclosure on the new info you found out with regard to how long its been going on.

[This message edited by k9lover1 at 7:50 AM, June 12th (Tuesday)]

Thanks again, NowWhat. I need all the validation I can get at this point I'm not crazy. In a month's time or less, the haze will lift and my path will be clear. I will know what to do.

K9, I went the SI disclosure route last summer, where he was supposed fess up to everything to me privately. Clearly, he lied. A LOT. And I told him at that time I would not tolerate TT and what the consequences would be if he was doing that. But there is a secondary component to it I may have not explained fully, which just applies to SAs.

In treatment for SA, there is a process called formal disclosure. It is totally different than what we often do here on SI. It is when the SA works with their IC to tell their entire sexual history to their spouse in a controlled environment. In that meeting, the spouse usually has an IC there to support them as well, and assist in the process. You have the big meeting, and then the spouse gets a chance to respond, sometimes right away, sometimes later - it depends on how the ICs run it. They are there to facilitate the process and minimize the trauma for both sides, not let one side go ballistic, etc.

So IMHO, any SA that has been in IC for six months and is still not up to bat for formal disclosure - that's a big red flag. Either the SA is not ready, or not willing, to do the process - IMO. I need to find out which it is, and if formal disclosure is even a possibility. In that respect, this situation is no different than any other infidelity sitch on SI. It is time to shit or get off the pot, you don't get to stall/gaslight/claim you need more time/etc. Either you are all in, or you are not. And if you are not, I'm out.

I'm really struggling right now. The evidence I found was very graphic. I have been doing my best to shut the mind movies off but I can't unsee what I've seen. And I read another thread here on JFO about a WS' definition of protected sex vs a BS definition of protected sex...and then I totally started to comprehend how much risk I have been subject to. Unprotected oral and anal, going both ways, with body counts likely in the triple digits. And that's what I *know*, not what I don't know.

FWIW, I had the full STD screen as soon after DDay as I could, and six months after again. Totally negative for everything, not even stuff that people normally test positive for for just being human like cold sores. But further research shows many STDs can live in your mouth, throat, eyes, rectum, etc and while rare, I don't think rare applies when you are talking the volume of exposure I am been subjected to. Who would swab those areas for STDs? Ever? And putting STDs aside, all the oher diseases you can get from unprotected oral and anal with that many people, who also do it with that many people. There's no telling what he's given me over the years and what I still may have.

I just want to I've pretended to fall asleep on the couch the last two nights because right now, it's all I can do to let him touch me in casual contact. It's sad, I can see the despair in him. He's definitely recognizes it's fourth down and punt, and he's trying hard NOW...but IDK if I can recover now. It may be too little too late.

I'm meeting with the lawyer in a week to go over the first draft of my post nup. And find out how long it will take to fast-track it, and how long I have to wait once it's enacted if I want to D.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 7:36 PM, June 14th (Thursday)]

I can totally relate to what you are feeling about the discovery. Give yourself some time to digest this new information and then decide. If you choose to cut the cord and move on - so be it. You will know when it is time to go down whichever path you choose.

((((hathnofury)))))

You've endured so much through all this. I'm so sorry that you can't catch a break. I don't have any words of wisdom--you're the example for the rest of us of how to keep your shit together.

Just sending lots of hugs and support. And most of all, hopes for some peace and resolution soon.

Sigh. Another update.

I went to my IC today alone, and SAWH's IC sat in for the first part of it. First I asked if SAWH had not done formal disclosure because he (SAWH) can't or he won't. His IC said that was a good question. Initially the latter, then the former, but now he is ready to start the process. He had come in holding back, but now is coming around appears to understand what all he needs to do to succeed.

Then I wanted to know if SAWH had admitted at least as much about his sexual history as I currently know - because if he hadn't he was wasting everyone's time. I found out SAWH was in fact being forthcoming about everything I had found out thus far with his IC - but only in the past two weeks. Whether it was the IC strongarming him, the incident that prompted his coming clean to his sponsor et al, that my year deadline looming, who knows (my assessment, not the ICs). But he certainly was not forthcoming from the beginning - he in fact lied a lot in the beginning. Luckily his IC is well versed in lying SA sack of shit stuff so he knows how to handle him. He thinks what I know appears to be the whole story. But you can never know for sure, of course. I told the IC the SAWH doesn't know I know... yet.

I asked him if he needed to go into an inpatient progam, if his case was severe enough. He didn't think so. I then found out what his plan was for SAWH. Power through formal disclosure, follow with a polygraph, then begin the initial recovery outpatient program with a group therapy component in addition to his IC. In addition to at least two 12 step meetings a week and weekly IC.

I then asked him if he thought there was a dual diagnosis possibility, meaning he is SA *and* some other personality disorder or for lack of a better term, mental illness. He said it is very possible, but it is too soon to tell. That that kind of stuff comes out as they go through the recovery program, and also he could better assess that after more time with him.

He then said he felt the change in SAWH was driven by my commitment to my own healing, that he could see the changes in me and and that had a huge impact on him. That he always sees a huge change in the addict when the spouse fully commits to their own healing over dealing with the addict any longer. That's when they realize the jig is up and they have to pony up or get out.

It's a lot for me to process. I was fearing it would be he was denying everything, or it was worse than I could ever imagine, and it's not either scenario. I'm still pissed he did not come clean to me about not being open with his IC from the beginning. I'm still pissed that he is making the effort now, right before my year deadline of promising not to make any major decisions until then. I can't know yet if he's doing it as a last ditch effort, or if he really gets it. I can't know yet if there is still even MORE for me to know.

I was so hoping a year ago by now I would be strong, healing nicely, and be able to make all the right choices with a clear conscience. And I feel like I am not only back where I started, but further behind.

Very frustrating.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 4:57 PM, June 15th (Friday)]

I posted this on another thread on June 16 and forgot to cross-post it here. It was a letter I wrote to WH when I thought I was ready to leave. I instead chose to show it to him anyway to let him see how close I was to leaving:

It has now been a year since I found out you were not who you presented yourself to be. I was completely destroyed by your betrayal, but I gave you a second chance. A tremendous gift of a full year to prove yourself worthy and continue to live in my presence, and not be thrown out on your ass. A chance to come completely clean, a chance to see you were broken and fix yourself, a chance to make amends. You repeatedly chose not to do all three.

All I ever wanted was for you to be completely honest with me, embrace your recovery so we could have a chance to recover OUR relationship, and do everything in your power to earn back my love and trust. I told you I would not tolerate trickle truth, and laid out boundaries and consequences if you did not comply. You continued to lie to me, our family, your IC, your support groups, and yourself. Even though you saw what it did to me each time I discovered something new, it was like discovering the first time all over again. You never fully investigated, much less embraced, what steps you needed to take on the path to recovery. You were never "all in" on trying to fix yourself, support my healing, or make it possible for us to reconcile and remain a family. You could not even do the bare minimum I asked to stay in the relationship, or the bare minimum what was required for your recovery. You convinced yourself you could never do enough to please me, so why even try, when the truth is you just didn't want to try. You convinced yourself if you pretended nothing was wrong, pretended to do the things that a husband and father is supposed to do for their family anyway, you'd get by and not have to do anything else. You never accepted responsibility for anything. You continue to stick your head in the sand and pretend nothing happened.

I deserve much better. I deserve someone who is "all in". I deserve someone that does not lie to me, ever, much less repeatedly every day for fifteen years. I deserve someone who will do anything to be healthy, so he can be the best husband and father he can be. I deserve someone who would go to the ends of the earth and never give up to keep me happy. Who would continue to fight even when it seemed hopeless, because they can't live without me.

I do recognize you have made small, consistent changes over time. That there wasn't zero effort. That you might still love me, despite the choices you make. That you did make more effort towards the end. But it's not enough. You had a YEAR to do enough, and you didn't even come close.

Believe it or not, I could have overcome the truth about your past. Even with 15 years of repeated frequent infidelity, body count in the triple digits, knowing exactly what your mindset was during that time because you were stupid enough to write it out and leave it for me to find I could have overcome the great health, safety, and financial risks you put me and your family in because of what you have done. What I cannot overcome is that you continued to lie, and you cannot stop. You have been lying so long you wouldn't know how to tell the truth if you knew what it was. What I cannot overcome is your refusal to do do everything you can to heal yourself, that you want to remain broken, that you are ok with compromising your ability to be a good husband and father. But most of all I cannot overcome that after all you have done, you never once were "all in" and willing to do whatever it took to right your wrongs and earn back my love and trust.

For that, I really have no choice. I have been more generous and loyal than you deserve. I can't do this anymore.

So what happened since I let him read this?

He was humbled, he cried, he was sorry he put me in that place. He stepped up his meetings, his therapy. He tries to be present in the moment, do things without being asked, etc. Is it enough? IDK.

My parents came and visited for a week. It was a much needed reprieve from all things infidelity. And for a change I really enjoyed their visit, and needed them here. Let them take care of me for a while, even though they don't know what is going on.

We had our wedding anniversary. I planned nothing, and actually forgot what day it was. SAWH tried not to show he was diappointed I forgot and asked what we could do o such short notice (three days time), and I said because of a lot of other stuff going on that week (lease up at old house, kid activities, etc) we should just have fancy takeout at home or something. Then I did nothing else. And he showed up with fancy takeout and wine that we enjoyed after the kids went to bed. But it felt at most like a date night and not really like a special anniversary. It's hard to feel more than that when the trust is gone.

I've stumbled on more evidence. I need to stop doing that. His history is way worse than I thought. And it doesn't matter what it all was, a 1000 pound sack of shit does the same total annihilation that a 100,000 pound sack of shit does to the average human being. I'm positive he will cop to it at disclosure, but of course I can't be sure there isn't even more. I need to face the reality of my situation, to quote another post on SI that I am living on the edge of a cliff and it's my choice to be there. Yes, he could be finally all in and he could get better as I get better. But at what cost? At what point do I face that no matter how this plays out, if I stay I am settling for less than I deserve, at least in the short term and probably in the long term.

But I'm already broken. I need to see it through. I need to go through this healing process and see what it brings. It may wind up being a train wreck, but I have to finish what I started. I will emerge from the ashes.

Because I am an idiot.

you are so strong (((hath))) Whatever you decide you will be just fine!

So what now?

In the recent discovery, and piecing things out on my own, I've managed to come up with some missing pieces in SAWH's story. I'm fairly certain he will cop to them in disclosure, but it is devastating to find out now - and he doesn't know I know.

I have figured out he has cheated on me every business trip he has ever gone on, as well as some solo trips he went on for personal reasons. That's a LOT of times, when I was home alone with our kids taking care of them so he could go.

Second, I figured out why I can't find evidence for more than one 30 day supply of boner pills for every 90 days. He probably secured large amounts of them on his solo trips abroad. Great, so he probably HAS been taking them every day and from a source that is less than reputable.

Between the facination with phone pix/videos with hookers and the trying to destroy a certain computer...I just figured out there are probably secret pix/videos of me. We made a sex tape once many years ago, and I immediately regretted it and told him to delete it. I know now he probably didn't, and he probably has made more. I can only hope that he didn't upload them anywhere, or use his iPhone during the time that all iPhones defaulted to uplaoding all pix/videos to Google backup, because that means they exist in cell tower backup logs too that I can never delete. This is a tremendous blow not only to the trust issue, but makes me feel incredibly unsafe.

Again, I am confident he will cop to all of this at disclosure but these three things in particular are killing me NOW. These are things that can't be undone.

The only undoing is of me.

This sucks.

OMGoodness Hath! I'm so sorry you had to figure this out all on your own. That truly sucks. Have you considered making a list to keep in your purse on 'the day'; a list of things you absolutely *must* hear him admit to? With my personality definitely confront *right there* if SAWH didn't 'fess up & make it right with particular information I deemed critical to my healing. I'd write a list to be sure I didn't forget anything in the trauma and heartache of 'the day.

As aways, just my .02 & YMMV.

~ Sabina

Sabina, part of the disclosure process we go through with our ICs includes a component where I have a list of questions he has to answer. My list is nearing like 50 now, because I have to ask questions like:

How often have you recorded yourself engaged in sexual activities?

How many times was another person involved that was not informed they were being recorded?

How many of those recordings are of me? Where are they now? Have they ever been uploaded anywhere or recorded on the iPhone within the first six months you had it?

I don't even want to tell you what other lines of questions I have to ask to find out what I need to protect myself from physically and legally. Nobody should have to make a list like this. But you are right, you make the list when you have a clear head because it won't be clear when the time comes to use it.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 8:25 AM, July 3rd (Tuesday)]

Aw hath, I understand how you feel. I have a list of questions but think of more at random times, forget to add them. Not sure when I will ever get a 'true' disclosure.

I think you have handled this the best way possible. You are an inspiration to me.

Stay strong.

(((((hath)))))

Dear Hath,

I have not posted for a while but wanted to let you know that I am very proud of you -- you are sooooo strong. You are so smart. You are such a good person.

I am 2 1/2 years out and I NEVER got a formal disclosure -- like you, I had to "snoop" to find things out myself. I know how stressful it is to sit on things, pretending like everything is OK, and wanting to just crawl under a rock or lash out -- saying --- this can't be my life -- this is not what I signed up for --- nobody knows how I am suffering --- I feel like a widow and nobody knows it.

Then the feelings of "What if I am making a HUGE mistake?" comes into play. What if I take him back and he relapses?? This is what we spouses of sex addicts go through -- this is what we have to live with if we stay with them.

We give them the gift of reconciliation. We want them to woo us back, make us feel loved, cherished and special. We want the TRUTH. Then when we don't get that, we feel defeated, unloved and devalued.

We can't tell our families because they will surely tell us to leave -- then if we stay with them and our families know -- things will be different forever between them. We are afraid that they will think less of us if we stay. No one truly understands sexual addiction like we do -- our families and friends have not stayed up night after night readng Patrick Carnes, Stephanie Carnes and Marsha Means learning as much as we can can about this cancer that has been thrust upon our lives. Everyone will think they are perverts, not the broken, often-times sexually abused, and intmacy phobic men. They will think we drove them to it -- that we did not sexually satisfy our husbands, so they went to prostitutes (mine did too). It could not be further from the truth.

It was not until I got the courage and the srtength to tell my husband to leave that he came around. I think it literally woke him up. He realized that I could make it without him, and I did not care if people found out. That was three months ago, and things are getting better a LITTLE every day. Have I forgiven him? No. Will I ever? I am not sure if I can.

Whatever happens in disclosure -- you WILL be OK. It will be so hard to hear the words come out of his mouth, but from what you said, it sounds like you already pretty much know everything. Make sure you have something wonderful planned for yourself after that -- or have a place or person you feel safe with so you can process it all (besides your IC if possible). make sure you take care of YOU.

I wish I could take the pain away for you and for all of us.

hugs,

Knutz

Thanks all for the support. Knutz, what you wrote was beautiful. I will definitely be using it as inspiration as I write the impact letter, yet another component of disclosure (at least the disclosure we are doing with our ICs). My IC feels very strongly the SA doesn't get to throw up all their past wrongs and sit back feeling better for finally coming clean. She thinks they should be subjected to a very real, raw list of consequences they have forced upon their spouses as a result of their choices, and THEN they have to respond to it. Their chance to show they REALLY get it, what they've done, and show true remorse, what they will do to remedy it and win the spouse back, etc. I was already halfway through, but my stuff was specific to consequences of his specific actions, not the general extra load of shit we get from just being betrayed spouses and spouses of SA like yours. You r post is not only extremely validating but also very helpful. Thanks for that.

I'm still not doing well. I have been struggling with why I don't respond like a normal person, someone who would:

take a Xanax

file for divorce

send the kids to the grandparents

and go on a girlfriends only cruise

and instead do what I do everyday. Why I don't want to kill or hit my WH in the face, etc. How I can still let him show me affection after all he's done, why would I even want him to touch me. And then last night I had a dream I punched him in the face and threw him out, and I was physically ill. It's just not in me to punch someone, it's not who I am. And there wouldn't be any gain for anyone from it.

It's all very hard and no one deserves to go through this. I feel for betrayed spouses everywhere.

Hath,

You are responding like a normal person.

There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with anyone that needs a Xanax, files for divorce, or go on a girl's cruise. They are coping in the way that works for them. As long as it is healthy, its a good thing.

You are doing what works for you in a healthy manner. It is normal.

You are so much like me, I love reading all of your posts!

ETA: the rest of my thought

[This message edited by too trusting BW at 1:26 PM, July 4th (Wednesday)]