SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I also appreciate everyone applauding my strength, but I didn't feel strong then and don't now

I know exactly how you feel. I feel like if I was stronger, I would have left my WH. My WH is military and we are in Germany. I also have no support system. My family (those that know of it) have told me to come home. I can't bring myself to leave with our daughter and to leave my job to live with my sister who is a single mother of 2 girls. I just can't burden anyone else. The OW told my WH I wouldn't leave him because I had nothing to go. I do have my BA in education and my MA in Military History- but I feel like there's not much I can find in these fields with the way the economy is. I am currently working as a secretary with low pay because it was the only thing I could find over here. But, I find that just getting up everyday makes us strong. Just loving our children and being there for them makes us strong.

"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says I'll try again tomorrow." ~Mary Anne Radmacher

Take things one day at a time....

Thanks, Katieboo. I know we are not alone, but it is always good to get validation from others since it's not you can discuss it much in real life. My children are a huge motivator for me in my healing.

Part 6 - Self preservation

So now I am armed with all these facts from survelliance, the doc visit, the lawyer. WH has his list for disclosure ready and I am trying to decide if this is something I should go ahead and do alone, or if I need to do it with the MC, etc. Because if he is truly SA many suggest that it be facilitated with a CSAT. The problem is I don’t think I can wait for a CSAT for it to happen, and I’m not confident that having this MC is going to make any difference in disclosure honestly. We have met with the MC independently at this point, and during my session I outline everything piece of info I know about him that could be a SA red flag, without saying why I am telling her this. She’s already a step ahead of me and says she has got a CSAT who is willing to work with him and see if he is in fact SA. When it is later brought up in our joint MC, WH agrees to go see the CSAT, who turns out to be in that SA specialty center I posted about previously as the backup plan. So that is on the horizon but I can’t wait that long to know.

About this time my WH gets a bonus for $10k. Says we should take a trip to Greece or something to reconnect since he and I have never taken an extended trip away from the kids (any bonuses, tax returns, etc prior have always gone to debt). Are you freaking kidding me?

So I do the math in my head, and rough estimates say he has probably spent $5k on hookers (not including any extra expenses that come with that, gas, hotels, accessories, etc.) in the past three years, if he is being honest with me about the frequency (again, only have what he said at MC to go by since we have not done disclosure yet). So that is why I had deposited $5000 in the new checking account in my name only. While there I also opened a credit card in my name only so I could use that as well if needed. Since the lawyer said it was probably 2x what he admitted to, I made WH pay an additional $5k toward an existing credit card in my name, and that the focus of our debt paying down should be on that card until it is paid off. Even though WH said he would assume all debts if we D, I am following the lawyer’s advice to get all the stuff in my name paid off ASAP. Then I also tell him the post-nup will cost another $5k, for my representation, and that was coming out of our joint funds when it happened. That he was free to represent himself to save any additional costs. He’s not happy about the costs or that I am continuing forward with the post-nup discussion, but he agrees. So in theory, I have 3x the amount he has admitted to spending on infidelity accounted for, 2x cash already alloted and 1x in promise. So that $10k bonus is gone. WH is disappointed there’s no trip now but knows he only has himself to blame.

A week after the STD panel, the OB calls me and tells me I have tested negative for everything. I am in my 40s, had a dozen partners before my husband in the late 80s and 90s before safe sex was the norm, and WH has probably been exposed to 30 or so people that I know of, and I don’t even register for a cold sore. If that is not a miracle and a blessing, I don’t know what is. A month later I would get the bill from the lab and there are a dozen tests on it, which I am happy to detail in a followup non-story post so others will know what to ask for. Evidently there is a large difference of opinion what constitutes a full STD panel, I would later find out.

WH had claimed to have been tested in March and been clean. I had told him he needed to get tested again and bring me printed proof of both, and again in 6 months. At this point he had been slowly earning nuggets of trust so I told him I would only consider open mouth kissing when I had those test results in my hand, which sadly is a huge motivator for him. So he makes an appointment to get the test and pick up the results of the last one right away. He brings it home, and I only see two tests on it, syphillis and HIV. When he gets his printout of the new tests, it still also only has these two tests on it, despite him telling the doc he needed a full STD panel. He only said do a full panel, did not disclose why. So the doc only ordered those two tests since he had no other symptoms, so I really don’t have a lot of sympathy for him. Frustrated, he immediately drives out 20 miles to the nearest Planned Parenthood that day with a list of specific STDs to test for, because he thinks he will get all the results that day. Turns out you only get the HIV results that day, and it would be at least a week before he would get the rest. To spare you the drama of waiting for the results in another post, I will go ahead and tell you they all come back clean. Another miracle.

So I had been going through the motions of doing the right things for self-preservation, and gotten really lucky it all worked out thus far. But inside I was still a mess and I am wondering if I am going to have a nervous breakdown. That maybe WH was getting off too easy, with me appearing to hold it all together, looking more likely to eventually forgive, and getting stronger every day when in reality I was not.

But I don’t know any other way. I have to fake it until I make it, so to speak.

Thanks for sharing your story with us. Im going through something similar and its tearing me apart.

Sending you a Pm

Can I just say, as I am doing this, what a very good idea it is to journal what is going on in your situation as you go, even if it is for your eyes only. Even if it is just incoherent mumbo jumbo. I am reading back on all this now and I can't believe I did all this. Who the heck is this person?

I am flipping out a bit, because I write these posts about 3-4 posts ahead of actually posting them, so I have time to go back and check I getting it all correct and making sense. I have almost finished the post about total disclosure and it has done me in.

It has been a good exercise to do, but I'm sure it's got WH wondering what the hell happened to me lately and I pity the poor CSAT I meet tomorrow for the first time.

The current status of my story is escalating. I'm going to have to post more often to get everyone up to speed so I can get advice on where I am now. I know the weekends are slow so this is a good time to do this, so early next week I can get input from veterans and those in similar situations. Thanks for staying with this thread so far.

Part 7 - Going through the motions

I stumble through the logistics of maintaining survellance via mobile spyware, keylogger, VAR in the car. I did not get a GPS because the mobile spyware could in theory do it, and any sort of reliable GPS logger that tracks in real time is ridiculously expensive. They are all unnecessarily complicated, not user-friendly, and sometimes fail - sometimes due to user error, sometimes it just doesn’t work. The installation of the mobile spyware completely drains his battery (right after he just charged it, oops) because the initial transfer of all logs/pix/files from his phone is so large and it renders the phone useless for a short time. The GPS tracking is limited at best and drains the battery when used with any frequency, and doesn’t work as soon as he enters the building he works in. WH assumes his phone is once again failing (he has had it warranty replaced 3x in the past) and says he may exchange it yet again, which irritates me because even though I have full access to the phone, it does take some planning to install the stuff without his knowledge. As part of my requirements I demanded on Dday, I have all his logins and passwords so I am trying to check those daily or every other day too. All this survellance takes a lot of time, time I have to be alone to listen to or read a lot of him listening to car radio, reading news websites, totally boring and droll innocuous stuff.

I find nothing suspicious (other than the previously mentioned explicit photos, which I would see if he cops to in disclosure), he is doing what he says. He never figures out I took his pills, so chances are they’ve been in there a long time and he forgot they were even there, but I’d see if he’d cop to that in disclosure also. And he continues to tell me his every move, take pictures when he leaves the office, call me periodically from his desk or on the road. But he works in a secure building, so I cannot visit, track or VAR him there. It would be easy to use a tracphone there, use some sort of third party app on his smartphone to set up hookups. He could leave his smartphone at work and go off somewhere during the workday, and the GPS would not track him, and as long as he didn’t say or do anything suspicious in the car the VAR wouldn’t tell me otherwise. He has given me full access to his work email and work blackberry despite it being a flagrant violation of the rules, but he gets hundreds of emails a day so it is not logistically feasible to look at them manually with any regularity. I stop checking those altogether. So while the survellance is comforting, it is not foolproof.

And as I spend all this time doing this, I constantly question myself between 1)nobody is worth this amount of time spying on and 2)you would be a fool not to verify everything, regardless of the outcome, at this point. WH senses my frustration, even though he doesn’t know of my spy capers, through our mutual attempt at tracking each other through Google Latitude, which is an epic fail. He offers to take pictures at his desk every morning, calls me from his desk phone randomly throughout the day and on demand, take pictures with time/date stamps whenever he leaves the building to show where he went. It helps and I do appreciate the gesture. The only catch is I have to pretend to see the pix the first time when he gets home instead of through my nefarious means, LOL.

He’s not accessing anything suspect on our home computer or his smartphone browser, he’s not talking on the phone in the car at all when I VAR him, the GPS matches where he says he is when it works. He offers to only use the home computer when I am in the room because in the past he’d go down in the basement when I was asleep or elsewhere to do his infidelity business. I act like I need to at first, but honestly the charade is exhausting so I tell him I feel better checking his history everyday to see where he has been so I don’t need to watch him full time. I figure out my mobile spy has a feature that can make the phone a VAR for a short while if I send it a certain text message. So the every time he says he’s working late or going to lunch, I text “ok” and I can confirm he is telling me the truth.

I get more lax about appearing to need more proof from him about his daily doings, which he takes as a sign of slowly gaining trust. The truth is it is mainly from the verification, it is way too early in the game to take his word for anything yet. I am more relaxed, not having panic attacks anymore, and for the most part can be pleasant with WH most of the time. He still is trying to be supportive but again I’m wondering if I am doing him a disservice letting him think his actions alone are the only thing helping me move forward. The time spent checking up on him also steals valuable time I could be spending with my children or otherwise getting my life on track.

The good news is at this time I am eating, somewhat sleeping, drinking water and somewhat resuming exercise. I go get a saucy new haircut, buy some better fitting clothes. I wear some very flattering dresses instead of my usual mom uniform of tees and jeans, even wear makeup on some days. I do not look like a woman in her 40s who had three kids in the past seven years whose husband has cheat on her repeatedly, LOL, and I am enjoying the compliments and attention not only from WH but others. My kids notice mama is a lot more fun to be around again.

WH and I are talking every night after the kids are in bed, reconnecting and establishing some intimacy through hand holding, holding each other, kissing, talking through issues as they arise. Since he is totally transparent as far as I can tell (further proven via spying), remorseful, and being proactive about my concerns and regaining my trust, showing his intentions through actions and getting better at showing it through words, I am not doing the full 180 but I am still reserved. I am finding because I am acting this way, he is trying even harder to meet my requirements.

But I am dreading the upcoming full disclosure. And having the continuing discussions of post nups and consequences for noncompliance and SA and so forth. I don’t want to be another sad story in SI, who jumped at R at the first signs of things going well, way before it’s warranted. I am afraid of being burned by things to come.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 5:02 PM, August 27th (Saturday)]

Part 8 - Preparing for Full Disclosure

I know many would cringe at the thought of doing ANY disclosure, especially what should be the fulll disclosure, with a potential SA on their own. I totally get that, and yes that is the best route to go. But WH was seeing the CSAT, and it was clear it would be several visits and tests later at the very least before he would be diagnosed and the CSAT would be available to discuss it with me. I simply could not wait that long for it. I took some suggestions here on how it should be facilitated and also read up more afterward from tips here and did pretty well by sheer blind luck.

Be advised I had already asked a bunch of questions before this, mostly on D Day and some after, like if he used protection, etc. So he is not expecting the third degree since he knows I did not want fodder for mind movies. I did make it clear omission of facts is still lying and would not be tolerated. He asked if he appeared to be doing that, to ask the question again in a different way because he was focusing so hard on answering the question correctly that he might misunderstand what I meant, he wasn’t trying to do that.

Also before we even started with the body count, I went over my detailed requirements, boundaries and consequences. I wanted to tell them to him before I got sideswiped with disclosure and rendered unable to do with with a sense of detachment. Most of these were not new information to him, this was just the first time I laid them out in detail all at once.

Boundaries:

*Full disclosure of all past instances

*absolute transparency, all passwords and logins, accountability for all communications and whereabouts, and I would be doing random spot checks of all of it.

*He needed to being showing remorse, not regret, daily.

*No porn, no strip clubs, no hookers, no bachelor parties, nothing remotely suspect.

*Absolute honesty about everything, including slipups or later discovered omissions.

*Accept full responsibility for his actions in the past, present and future

*IC and MC as required, with 100% compliance

*any 12 step and other treatments as required, with 100% compliance

*full panel STD testing every 3 months, drug and other testing if needed.

*polygraph if I request it. (WH and I are not fans, they are expensive and not always accurate - especially if you are dealing with someone who is *convinced* they are telling the truth.)

*no alone travel (He had plans prior to dday, they are now dead. And he better get out of any work travel that would try to come his way)

Requirements:

*Minimum $5k in an account in my name only I can access, so I can leave at any time with the kids.

*Paying off all credit cards in my name first was our debt paying priority.

*We would have to figure out a way to separate our joint credit accounts, so they were all in one name or another (for the ease of post-nup/D)

*I needed about $5k out of our joint account for post-nup representation in the near future.

Consequence for not meeting requirements (any infidelity, I am gone. This is for other stuff). It would depend on the severity of the offense what would apply:

*sleep somewhere else

*monetary fines, like $1k for missing IC appointments, $5k for lying, $10k for infidelity for every offense, deposited into my separate account.

*I would tell his mother and sister.

*I would tell my parents and sister.

*I would tell all our mutual friends.

My delivery was different than just reading off this list. There is a SI post, I think from Serj, that outlines how to approach doing this, and I tried to follow it the best I could. If I wrote out how I delivered this list, this post would be a book, LOL, because to do it like he suggests takes considerable time and tact.

I would find out later that WH really appreciated my taking the time to do this. That it showed I was thinking clearly, was totally serious, and was coming from a place of love and not vindication. It gave him direction and told him what to do, and how he could help. We sometimes forget as BS that we spew a lot of random things that are not always helpful, LOL, so this reminds me I have to keep considering all this if I want anything to improve.

Now my heart is pounding, because it’s time for him to hand over the full disclosure.

We are here for you. ((HUGS))

I just realized I lost an entire post somewhere. I must have deleted by accident. But basically, prior to meeting for disclosure, WH agreed to a vasectomy. I knew it would not keep him from being unfaithful, did not prevent him from adopting someone else's kids if we split, and that it was wholly not reasonable as a requirement of R. But I needed it for peace of mind he agreed to it anyway. Bear in mind we had already agreed to not have any more kids before this all went down, so it's not a out of the blue thing.

He did have hesitations about the procedure when he didn't think I was going to stay, and he said so in a respectful way. At that moment I burst into tears and revealed what I had learned about not being able to leave for Texas with the kids, and the difficulty with getting custody there, which was dumb. But his response was he didn't want me to stay because I *had* to, because I wanted to. We would work it out and get what I needed. And in the end he did get the procedure.

There was a lot more to it than that in the post, that illustrated our relationship and his attitude towards trying to fix what he had done, mostly positive, but I can't find it. And I won't be able to recreate it, just know that it was a huge gesture he did it, and I did reveal info I should have kept to myself.

You go girl! You are my hero.

I am definitely taking notes.

It seems we are in the same boat, however my wh is still

at it(thanks to keylogger!) even though we are supposedly in R. Still deciding how to handle this new revelation.

Part 9 - FULL Disclosure

This is the hardest part of the story for me to write. Not because it is particularly shocking, but it was the worst day of my life next to D Day. I am writing about it now, much like everything up to now, matter of factly and largely separating myself from how it felt. I am not trying to appear stronger than I really am. It is merely a means of coping and survival.

This part of the story is ridiculously long. I can’t moderate the diarrhea of the mouth on this one. Sorry.

He gives me a cryptic list of dates and how much it cost. That is all I asked for, the approximate dates and how much it cost. He was consistent in what he had said in MC, the frequency did average to once a month in the last three years. He however had not stated that it was less frequent in the beginning and was getting more frequent, much more than once a month, as time progressed. Red Flag.

He also went more frequently in the months of December and June, which somehow chapped me because he has not spent one dime on me for Xmas, birthday, or anniversary (both in June) presents in the last three years. Even though that arrangement was by mutual agreement it felt like to me he saw it as license to spend it on this, even though I’m sure that wasn’t what he was

thinking at the time. Whatever the reason, Red Flag to be doing it more often on those months.

Since there are no times listed, I ask did he go at lunch, after work, when did he go. He said mainly after work, and he’d tell me he was working late again. A few times at lunch. I ask if he ever went in the morning. I have an old email from 2-3 years ago where he went at 9am. He said he didn’t think so. I tell him I have proof of a 9am appointment on a Monday. He, thinks hard, then remembers there was once or twice he had an early visit on what would normally be a work holiday before he would head into work, but it wasn’t the norm and certainly hadn’t happened since we moved here. Even if that is true, the fact that there had been so many encounters he could not initially remember he had morning appointments the first time asked is still Red Flag.

I ask if he ever took pictures or videos of his encounters. He said not with our cameras. Only with his phone, which he deleted the files the next day. I tell him I cannot believe he was so stupid to do that. He said it was only a handful of pictures and two videos (Ack! I didn’t know about those!) He said not to worry, he didn’t show his face and he never sent the files anywhere or took/sent them off the phone, and all long deleted. Again, probably not my best moment or idea, but I say I am aware of all that. WH literally recoils from this. I tell him, with all the ESPN you watch, and all the stupid sports stars who get their dick pix spread all over the news by scrappy reporters...how hard did you think it would be for me to get those files, from a phone in an account in MY name? He thinks now I have the videos too, and they must be bad from his reaction. “I am so sorry you had to see that. You must hate me.” Again, still no direct lying yet but big Red Flag.

I ask what else should I know. Probably prompted from the previous discussion, he said I know you don’t want details, but I did have a couple of threesomes with two girls. And I did look into having one with a guy and a girl, where we would both do her. But I couldn’t find anyone here that would do it that was well...a reputable source. I didn’t want it bad enough to use a less reputable source. But I would have if I could have at that time. So now I am pretty sure the videos are the girly threesomes, and I’m pretty sure there were no guy-involved threesomes because he would have recorded that too if it had happened.

I asked what was his fascination with glory holes. He was a little taken aback by the question, but said he was looking into bringing a hooker to an adult bookstore that had rooms you could have sex in, and that was the easiest way to find them. That it was something he had brought up with me before but I had turned him down, this was one of the last areas left he wanted to explore that I refused to do. But because all those places were in really scary parts of town here, he didn’t go through with it. (Well, and that Dday was less than a week after he made those extensive internet searches, LOL.)

I ask it again in a different way. He sticks to his story, asking if I thought it meant I was looking for random strange guys to suck him off I was greatly mistaken. Clearly the only way I could have known this was from his internet searches, so I feel okay in saying, “Well, that is what people who do those kind of searches, especially to the level you were searching, are looking for. If it looks like a duck...” He is irritated but not overly defensive. “I see what you mean. I know what it looks like. I don’t know how to persuade you otherwise. If you want to think that, you are certainly entitled and I don’t blame you. But I’m telling the truth.” I say whatever, but you need to have this same convo with the CSAT. Ok, so even if he is telling the truth, or has convinced himself that was the reason why he did that, big Red Flag. He was in the process of moving from hookers to random anonymous encounters, whether he was aware of it or not.

I’m not sure how I didn’t put this together until this point in the discussion. I’m looking at the dates, and realize he had over a half dozen encounters and spent $850+ WHILE HE WAS ON UNEMPLOYMENT right before moving here. When we had no other income, no savings left from the two prior layoffs, when I took a part time job and we borrowed from our parents to cover the bills. I am furious. I am trying really hard not to be abusive, but I can’t let this slide. I call him on it, and ask him if this is what healthy people do, pay for sex when they can’t pay for food and shelter. Reiterated he was very broken and needed to be fixed. That he had to disclose that piece of info to the CSAT as well. Big big red red flag.

I again reiterated that if he remembered anything else later, he had to come to me about it immediately. That it would not be a dealbreaker if he had forgotten isolated events, but it would be if I found out the body count was, for example, double what he told me. Since that day he has remembered two trips to a strip club before I was able to move the family up here, but nothing else earth-shattering. To spare you further suspense as of today I do not have any evidence to disprove anything he has told me that day, or found additional behaviors that weren’t disclosed, and obviously I am no slacker in the research and survellance department. But I am again only at day 60ish at the time I write this. The veterans here are shaking their heads at me now, LOL, and trying to figure out when they should start with the 2x4s. Especially since my whole story isn’t finished yet.

In the end, we talked about prenups again, how that it was important to me. He said that was fine, he was totally agreeable to it. But he wanted to make sure I knew, if I destroyed him professionally, he would not be able to support me or our kids financially. He wasn’t saying it as a threat, it was the truth. If he was exposed engaging doing illegal activities, his law license and reputation was at risk. I asked him why would I ever do that, what good would come of it? We could word it all in a way that didn’t elude to any past behaviors. He also asked when we finalized it if I could destroy all pictures and videos. I said I was open to discussing that when the post nup was over and done. Mentioned it was for our own benefit, so we could work this out in a place of love now and not in a place of anger later, with a judge calling the shots.

He shows his insecurity that maybe I am just prolonging the inevitable, that I’ve already decided to leave and why wouldn’t I after all what he has just told me. I asked him why wouldn’t he want to divorce me, then he could have all the hookers he wanted and see the kids only when it was convenient to him. Without hesitation, he says, “Because I want to spend the rest of my life with you. That life sounds very empty and pitiful.” Tears. “I love you, I want to be with you. I can’t change what I did in the past, but I can control what I do in the future. I will do whatever it takes to help you heal, earn back your love and trust. Whatever it takes. I’m so sorry.”

It was a very difficult discussion for me, and for him. If he hadn’t been totally remorseful, transparent, cooperative, actively seeking IC with the CSAT, committed to getting to a place to R, etc it would have been a total nightmare to do this without professional facilitation. Again I had dodged a bullet with sheer luck.

So why did I not feel so lucky?

Hathnofury:

You are a remarkable woman!

My ex is SA and he was into strippers and prostititutes. I legally ended our marriage (legal annulment). We had no children together and I was the primary income earner.

The reason for the legal annulment is because he had lied to me about so many things, before I ever married him. I didn't know the truth and had I known (about his SA), I wouldn't have married him. It also allowed me to escape paying him alimony and giving him part of my 401K if I had gone for a divorce. I'm so glad I did the legal annulment.

Even though as it was, that marriage cost me nearly everything I had. He quit his job right after we married to become "self-employed". My guess now is that he was fired for either surfing porn at work or sending nasty emails.

But I was the loving and supportive wife and wanted him to be happy. As it turned out, he brought home very little income, and he took full advantage of his self-employment status (too much unaccounted for time)in which to engage in his habit and all the while made up elaborate lies about deals he had in the "works" for years so I would think he was working very hard.

So, during our marriage, I let him handle the finances, because I trusted him. It has taken me three years of very hard work to start to get back on my feet again financially.

As for you, you are very smart to pursue the post-nup and to make the post-nup a condition of trying to R. I would strongly recommend that every single spare dollar he earns (now that he is employed and earning a good salary) go into your post-nup settlement.

Get it funded as soon as you can so you have financial security if you decide you need to D.

Since you know that he has played games in the past with money so he could fund his addiction, and that he has a history of lay-offs, this is all the more reason to make sure that any spare money go into your post-nup account now.

I do hope that he remains appreciative of the gift you are giving him by giving him another chance, with your conditions, and that he has what it takes to work through a successful and permanent recovery.

That is up to him. As you, good for you for making sure that you and your children are provided for in the event he doesn't fulfill his end of the bargain.

You are very strong and very smart. Big hugs to you for what you've been through and continue to post as you go through this.

[This message edited by somer222 at 10:52 AM, August 28th (Sunday)]

Thanks somer. That helps quite a bit.

Just so it is clear, WH was not especially devious in paying for his activities. After the birth of our third son, I stopped looking at the finances very closely. I was overwhelmed of the change that comes with going from two to three children, when you have more children than you do hands, LOL. There were a few times I did spot check them and notice there was a lot of ATM withdrawals, but I would fuss that he use the debit card instead so we could more easily track where the cash was going and it would correct itself for a while. We go over the finances regularly together now to make sure that doesn't happen again.

As for deviousness with the time, his job has always required very long hours, more than 80 hours a week sometimes. I never questioned it before. Now he is required to provide proof of where he is, call from his desk and whatnot regularly so I know he's not stepping out.

Just pointing out he did not have to go to great lengths to deceive me then, not excusing the behavior. That's not to say he couldn't figure out how to be more devious in the future

Thanks somer. That helps quite a bit.

Just so it is clear, WH was not especially devious in paying for his activities. After the birth of our third son, I stopped looking at the finances very closely. I was overwhelmed of the change that comes with going from two to three children, when you have more children than you do hands, LOL. There were a few times I did spot check them and notice there was a lot of ATM withdrawals, but I would fuss that he use the debit card instead so we could more easily track where the cash was going and it would correct itself for a while. We go over the finances regularly together now to make sure that doesn't happen again.

As for deviousness with the time, his job has always required very long hours, more than 80 hours a week sometimes. I never questioned it before. Now he is required to provide proof of where he is, call from his desk and whatnot regularly so I know he's not stepping out.

Just pointing out he did not have to go to great lengths to deceive me then, not excusing the behavior. That's not to say he couldn't figure out how to be more devious in the future, that seems to be a common pattern.

So what has been happening over the past month, to bring you up to do date now?

We did go to the MC a few times. She is very nice, points out some things to us and gives us suggestions to make our bond stronger. But she is clearly not an infidelity or SA specialist, so I thinking we stop MC and need to focus on IC for each of us. Me to focus on healing from the betrayal, him on his issues to get well, so we can get to a place where we can MC again.

He has seen the CSAT maybe 5 times now. He took a LOT of diagnostic tests and had many long discussions with him about his behaviors and feelings and what drives them. WH said that CSAT said he does not present like a typical SA, but has many of the parallel issues, and he likes working with the CSAT to figure them out. I ask to attend a session, wonder why I've never been asked to join one before, and why 12 step and other things have not been suggested. This SA center is big on a 3 month long program that includes seminars and group therapy for SAs and their partners, and WH doesn't feel like it would apply in his case since he is not a true SA.

This past weekend I met the CSAT. My purpose in going, I thought from discussing with WH, was to get CSAT's take on WH's diagnosis so I could understand it, learn what his treatment options were, and what I could do to help or not hinder.

Instead the CSAT asked me a lot of questions, and I felt like it was becoming very intervention-like. If I knew that was going to happen, I would have brought notes and other documentation, because I was not prepared to discuss a lot of these things in much detail. Being a lawyer it is WH's nature to argue the details and facts, and I can't keep them straight or remember everything unless I have it written down. I did not come to make WH have any breakthroughs, I came to get educated about his condition and felt uneasy about it, and reiterated that and why I was there.

So the CSAT says WH is in fact an addict, while he does not present like a typical case his test results and thinking/behaviors are not uncommon in SA. That he does need treatment. We go into further detail of what all that can be, and because I had read up quite a bit on this already (which I am sure is not the usual case with his patients), it's almost like parents discussing what is happening to their child and what they should do, in front of the child. You know, the child knows crap is going down but can't totally comprehend what the grownups are saying. I am really uncomfortable with it at this point and glad that we wound up coming in separate cars since the sitter was late.

CSAT pushes the course. WH says he does not think it's a good fit for him, and that he cannot commit to it schedule-wise or any program that means you have to be here weekly at this time only. That coming to see CSAT weekly thus far has been affecting his work (which was true), and he had hoped he could continue less frequent sessions and be given exercises and tools to help himself. This is not a surprise to me, he has told me this before. Since he had also been telling me he was not SA, it was something else it all made sense to me up until this point.

CSAT then turns to me about the program. I tell him I don't know that it would work for him. 1) He doesn't think he is SA, so he will not take the program seriously. 2) He has not hit rock bottom, so he may not improve at all with any course of treatment, so I wasn't in favor of an expensive one that required a lot of time that would jeopardize his employment. 3) I could certainly convince him to go, but if he went because I told him to, he would not get anything from it and then blame me for the time and money lost. CSAT then asked if I would go, and I said I'd think about it. My main concern is the program is for couples, and I would not gain as much from it attending it alone, but I'd think about it.

I then press him on what other options he has for treatment. He says he can continue to go to IC, he was happy to work with him, but the course would be more helpful, even if he only went to half the sessions. I ask about 12 step, and he says it would be helpful but doesn't expand on it. I ask about drug therapy, since certain ADs have been proven to help, and he says it is a good treatment for some SAs but not in WH's case.

I left the session overwhelmed. I was not expecting this diagnosis, or everything that transpired. I like the CSAT, but I question his methods. I can't help but feel a little bit sandbagged by both WH and CSAT, and I'm sure WH feels the same about him and I.

WH and I didn't get to discuss it until much later, after the kids went to bed. WH started with reiterating how the program would not work for him, and I cut him off. I asked if CSAT had ever told him he was an addict before. He said no. He said he wasn't sure if they just hadn't reached that point in their sessions yet, or if some of the info I revealed in his session just elevated his findings. He was frustrated that he felt like we were both a bit sandbagged, and now CSAT has planted seeds of doubt in my mind about his trustworthiness because what CSAT said today was not matching what WH had been updating me with in sessions thus far. He also knew I felt like I was pressured into a "intervention" type setting and told me he did not blame me at all, everything I said was valid and I had nothing to feel bad about. I did nothing wrong at all.

I asked if he wanted to get a second opinion, I certainly understood if he wanted to. He said no, another CSAT would run similar tests and exercises and would likely find the same results. I asked him if he was still comfortable with this therapist, and he was. I told him I wasn't going to push the seminar, but I was still considering it for myself. I also said he had to pursue some course of treatment, and that regular visits with this CSAT was fine.

I also said he had to attend some sort of 12 step meeting at least once, preferably one referred by the CSAT, because they can vary widely. He was not a fan because of the religious component, and I said that's why you need to talk to the CSAT about it, to get a group that's a good fit, for that and other reasons. He says he will try it.

I then look at all the materials in the program again, and then realize it is more cost effective to attend the program, even if you only go to half the sessions, than IC at this place. I point it out, and say that is leaning me to do it. That it financially made more sense for him to do it, but I understood the other reasons if he didn't want to go that route. And I'm leaving it at that.

I think I need a few days or more to let all this sink in. I am sure I need some further guidance and direction on this, but I am totally exhausted, mentally, physically, emotionally, etc.

Also wanted to point out in telling my story, I have been getting PMs that have been particularly helpful.

Case in point, I also discussed with WH how now the post nup was more critical to me. That I hadn't brought it up since disclosure because I hadn't done my part on it yet, but I was going make it a priority now. That basically I was more comfortable with taking a lower amount of spousal support for life as opposed to a higher amount short term, and that I would like to have an infidelity clause with a major penalty (that could apply to either of us) for any future infractions. He was agreeable to both. So now I just have to prove on paper what I need financially, and he will most likely agree with out much struggle. I'd rather get this cleared up before going back to the lawyer, so we aren't wasting money while we bicker about it.

Secondly as a result of a PM I addressed custody. Told him in light of how complicated it was to get the arrangement we wanted here or if I wanted to move back to Texas in this state, it made much more sense to give my FULL custody of the kids. Then we could do whatever we wanted as far as his visitation, and I had no restrictions in moving back if needed. That he knew I would not prevent him (or his family) from seeing his kids. He is totally agreeable to that, which takes a huge load of my mind.

So thanks to those people who helped me with this via PM, it gave me the kick in the pants I needed.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 9:36 AM, August 29th (Monday)]

God Bless you HHNF,

I can understand why your WH would not want to lose you.

You are being a great mom, doing all you can to protect your children with your actions.

Thank you for posting, it helps many of us to know we are not alone and taking definite actions help.

Crap. I'm probably going to have to call a lawyer to figure out what is valid concerning infidelity clauses in our state. I'm not finding anything conclusive online. I'm pretty much finding examples of ones people agreed on all over the US that got overturned in court. Not encouraging.

But then again, who give a crap if it's legally viable. Just the idea it *could* be might be enough to get things moving the way it should be. Because honestly if this all blew up, and he fell down the bottomless vortex and didn't want help to get out, no agreement in the world is going to help me and the kids or save him.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

When the peak of my despair was going on with discovery, there was a really good post on SI about how you are basically in four stages with a WS in JFO. Limbo, Biding Time, attempting R, or in the process of D. Limbo meaning you didn't know what exactly was going on and/or what was going to happen. Biding time meant you had decided what to do, but needed time to get your ducks in a row. Like gathering evidence for D, that sort of thing. Attempting R and D self explanatory. Figuring out where you were often helped people figure out what they needed to do.

I've been in limbo what seems like forever, even though it is only like 70-80 days or something. I've been getting my ducks in a row and still am not finished. We've been acting like we are trying to R but I know we aren't, we are trying to make the best of a bad situation while we figure it out. I think WH had convinced himself we were in R until our joint session with the CSAT, when reality came crashing down on him that we were not, not yet.

I love him, despite everything. I want to do the right thing by him. I want him to have his issues resolved, or at least treated, regardless of what happens to us. He is the father of my children and they deserve two healthy parents. But I'm not going to sacrifice myself or my children in the process either.

Mostly, just everything sucks.

Hugs, girl.

Just want to let you know Im still reading.

That had to be a let down about the CSAT. Is it possible to attend another appointment? Maybe you could get more of your concerns addressed then.

Its definitely good that he is agreeable to the postnup and custody situation. You really are doing a great job at actively figuring out where everything stands and what you can put into place for the future. Meantime, Im mostly laying in bed with my head covered.