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Just Found Out :
My neverending story...

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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 2:54 PM on Thursday, November 15th, 2012

Why wait on the poly for the post nup? Two reasons, if he massively fails it, we D instead. I am not expecting that, but there might be minor flags that go up that I would want to know about before signing anything. Second, because I cannot afford to pay the poly guy and the estate planner (which is part of the post nup) in the same month.

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6102475
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DrivingPast ( member #32984) posted at 3:19 PM on Thursday, November 15th, 2012

I get the second part, but....

If you head to D with no postnup, might that make it harder to get everything you had agreed on(if for some reason he wouldnt agree then)? Am I making sense?

BW
married more than 10 yrs to a possible SA
D-Day May 5 2011
"Because one knows people best through their fears - the ones they overcome and the ones they are overcome by."

posts: 1304   ·   registered: Aug. 2nd, 2011
id 6102527
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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 8:55 PM on Thursday, November 15th, 2012

In theory, WH has already agreed to D using the post-nup as a template. But yeah, not legally binding until it's signed. The thing is, my L wants the estate planning part blessed by a specialist in that area so I am covered in that respect. You know how ugly things can get when a will is in play under "normal" circumstances, just imagine how it gets when D is involved. The post nup is supposed to prevail but you have to word things right to ensure it it.

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6103174
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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 8:57 PM on Tuesday, November 27th, 2012

So the polygraph was yesterday.

Here's the funny thing. I totally forgot about it. Didn't remember AT ALL until the day of, after he had already arrived there and started, at the usual time we check in with each other in the afternoon to confirm any daily plans. And I had an event to attend that evening, so I didn't talk to him until 9:30pm that night, after the kids were already in bed.

I attended an enormous special candlight advent service for women only at my church that night. It was spectacular, and renewed my spirit and faith, and put my heart and soul in the right mindset for Christmas. I came home feeling great. On the inside. However I didn't eat any real food for dinner (just appetizers and desserts at the service) so I had a big hunger headache when I got home.

So I got home to a patiently waiting SAWH, half an hour later than I said I'd be. I ate a sandwich while he gave me the play by play of the poly, which was interesting. Said how nervous he was since so much was riding on it, but he felt good about it. We will get the results in a few days or so.

So then I was exhausted from the very long day and waiting too long to eat and wanted to go to bed. In bed he tried to talk about how in doing the poly, he had to go through his whole history and how it made him feel, especially how it had impacted me. He was remorseful, apologetic, wanted to pledge his love and commitment to me and his recovery, etc.

But I was too tired. I told him I was very appreciative of what he did, knew it was difficult for him, and I appreciated what he was trying to tell me now. But I was too tired and we'd discuss it another time. And then I fell asleep in his arms.

If you had told me all of this would happen six months ago, I would have laughed at you. It really says a lot about where I am in my healing in how this all played out. I am immensely proud of my own progress.

I probably have some anxiety about the impending results, but it certainly isn't out of control. I didn't lose any sleep over it last night. At any rate I feel like I am prepared no matter how it turns out. Because regardless of what happens, I will have peace of mind.

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6118420
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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 7:54 PM on Thursday, November 29th, 2012

So poly results are in, SAWH's CSAT has them and called my therapist to tell him he has them and will review them with my SAWH tomorrow evening at his regular appt. Tomorrow both CSATs will be in the same office together, so I am sure he was planning to go over it with her then. She doesn't know anything about the results other than they are in, she got the message right before my appointment today so hasn't talked to the other CSAT yet.

So she suggested that we crash SAWH's appointment if I can get a sitter, because she does not have anything scheduled at that time, just in the spirit of expediting things since I only meet with her every other week now. Obviously digging up a sitter for Friday night on a day's notice is not easy, so I told her I'd see what I can do.

Then called SAWH to brainstorm sitter ideas, and talked about possibly letting them stay with a neighbor but I'd have to get back to them before bedtime. SAWH said, "Well, if the results are bad, are you sure you want to come home right away?" Seriously never occurred to me they might be bad, my convo with my CSAT was just about doing it quickly so I wouldn't have unnecessary anxiety waiting if I didn't have to. So I wasn't worried about it before, but now of course I am. So I have a call into a sitter the kids know and maybe I will get lucky and she can come.

Ugh. I hate this. It is so stupid. Worrying about it isn't going to help or change anything, and I really don't have any reason to believe it is bad news. You know, other than the lying to me for 15 years thing.

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6121305
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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 6:02 PM on Friday, November 30th, 2012

Well, I couldn't find a sitter for tonight. Told my CSAT, and said SAWH is willing to record his session so I can hear everything, or do a conference call, if his CSAT is willing. I just wanted someone else to verify his results, and wanted to hear how his results impacts his course of treatment.

So my CSAT just emailed me and said, well, can you both do early tomorrow morning? Gah. No. Apparently you do not understand, last minute childcare, especially on Friday night or early Saturday morning, is not possible. I've now asked if we can put the kids in one of the other's CSAT's offices down the hall and keep SAWh's appointment tonight, since they will be the only people there.

Obviously this is not just a clean thumbs up discussion ahead. It could just be that he failed questions from the therapist about his life history, or it could be he failed the whole test, anything in between. This is NOT what I needed today.

Big sack of suck.

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6122707
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CheaterMagnet ( member #33581) posted at 6:23 PM on Saturday, December 1st, 2012

HUGE (((((HUGS))))) to you Hath. I've been following your story from the first day and I am always encouraged by your courage and stamina. You can do this too.

No matter what happened at the appointment, we are here for you. Every day. All day.

Stand strong. You can do this.

If Happy Ever After did exist, I would still be holding you like this.
All those fairly tales are full of shit.
One more fucking love song I'll be sick. ~ Maroon 5

posts: 1968   ·   registered: Oct. 11th, 2011
id 6123880
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BrandyT ( new member #37621) posted at 7:44 PM on Saturday, December 1st, 2012

Just read all 15 pages! You. Are.One.Amazing. Woman! Hope all went well with the appointment. Hugs!

Me- BS
Him- WH
M- 7yrs with two kids 6yrs and 6mths
D Day 1- 10/08/12
Insane month of lies and false R
D Day 2- Last discovery 11/23/12
NC with OW- 11/26/12
3mth sexual and emotional A
Moving forward and working on us.

posts: 46   ·   registered: Nov. 26th, 2012   ·   location: BrandyT
id 6123952
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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 2:16 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

It is with a very heavy heart I write this post.

The therapists were adamant we both be there for the results, at the same time, and the kids be cared for elsewhere. I signed them up for a Parents Night Out program last night so we could go over the results.

He failed the poly. Massively. I would later find out that my therapist has never seen someone fail so massively and consistently across the board. She actually wants to follow up with the poly guy (who as I have said is on vacation for this entire month) to find out how common this is with SAs and with his clientele in general (he also does polys for the legal system for sex offenders).

I was in shock and devastated. I was sure we would come in, and they would say all results were inconclusive. That he has been lying to everyone and himself so long that he actually can screw his biofeedback up to ruin the results and I would never be able to get answers. Even though I knew it was an all or nothing thing, I was not expecting him to fail at this magnitude.

But I am more disappointed in his reaction. He just sat there and didn't say anything. When they asked for his reaction, he just said he was disappointed, he worked hours with the poly guy to get the questions right and he felt like he was telling the truth. They asked for my reaction. Of course I am shocked and disappointed. I know this could mean just a minor omission, or major one, or anything between. I know that the standard procedure is to dig further with the SA and find out why the results are going that way. They confirmed all this. He never looked at me, touched me, asked how I felt or basically checked to see if I was still conscious. he told the truth and was very frustrated. And nothing else. They asked if we had further questions as a group, then we split off to discuss with our ICs individually.

I was devastated. My ICs continued to confirm that it could just be a minor omission throwing all the tests off. She did feel it was a major one, and she did not sense the children were at risk. She felt is way of responding to anything was to avoid direct statements, especially provable ones, and that in itself was enough to fail the test. But I told her his behavior, his actions indicated otherwise. This past week he has been behaving like when he was initially diagnosed. And when he would be confronted with omissions of truth, which at the time appeared minor but turned out to be major. I told her if he breaks out in hives, I will know there is much more to the story. And I told her it didn't matter if it was a minor omission anyway. The trust was gone. I can't model a mom/dad relationship for my kids where I cannot trust my husband. I cannot be sure there isn't further risk to them. They deserve better, and I deserve better.

SAWH and his IC came back. He looked at me and apologized. Again vented his frustration, but said there were minor omissions that probably skewed the results. Like he would cross-dress when masturbating as a teen, etc. That he was going to work with his IC to further pinpoint the truth so he could pass the poly next time. Could I forgive him and give him chance to do this?

Not once did he ask how I felt. Not once did he ask what I needed to feel safe or stay in the relationship. Not once did he even reach out to touch me. When the therapists called him out on that, he agreed but only minimally asked these things. I told him I was devastated, that it was clear he was holding back things, major things, and I did not know why he would continue to lie to me, or continue to pay to lie to his therapist, his sponsor, etc - all these people that are trying to help him. What was SO bad that he thinks I was going to leave?

Again some minor omissions. One significant one, after being asked TWICE why he was failing the question about sobriety, was that he was pushing the limits of sobriety - touching himself, but not bringing himself to climax, fantasizing, etc. - basically not breaking the standard as written but breaking the spirit of the agreement. Again a lot of justifications and "I" statements. Again no touching me, no real baring of soul, no heartfelt remorse that indicated he felt this was his last chance. I called him out on it. His IC asked how that made me feel. I told him now I am worried not only do I have an addict I don't trust in the house, I possibly had a NPD or mentally ill man as well. I told SAWH as he followed the new course of treatment, that usually people don't fail the poly twice. But in his case, he would have to do a LOT of work to be able to pass.

SAWH asked if I would help him through that process, so he can rebuild my trust in him. I told him I would always love him, always support his efforts in recovery. He had three kids that needed him well. But he needed to extend that same courtesy to me, and he was not.

He did not ask what he needed to do to accomplish that. He said he would sign the post-up ASAP to help me feel safe. I appreciated that, but clearly he did not get it. Shortly after the therapists decided to close the session as it was clear despite my laying it all out explicitly, he wasn't getting it and it was going nowhere.

It was eye-opening for me. This is not what would have happened at home. And to be fair, he was not expecting to have to go into this level of sharing in front of a stranger, and I knew that. But when it is fourth down and punt, you do whatever is necessary. And he didn't.

I rode with him to the appointment. I don't see well at night and it's even harder for me to driving at night when I'm upset. And because I had no idea how long it would take, I didn't make other arrangements for transportation. I had my purse so I could take a cab, but I didn't want to make the therapists wait any longer on a Saturday night. So we went out to the car, and he asked if he could hug me, and I said yes.

He wanted to discuss things in the car right there. I did not. I told him to take me to church. If it wasn't open, I'd sit in the car in parking lot. But that is where I needed to be.

We drove there. The parking lot was entirely empty, and it was freezing outside, so I didn't want to check all the doors that were probably locked. I sat there. He asked what I was thinking. I am trying to figure out what I need to do. He asked if he could talk, or if I needed quiet. I said if he needed to talk, go ahead. I figured that would also help me figure out what I needed to do.

He continued to ramble on about the same things. Disappointed he failed, when he thought he told the truth. Dude, you didn't tell the truth, you told us that - that is why you failed. He was angry my IC called him out on his reaction, that she insulted him. I told her perhaps she was not tactful or polite, but what she said was dead on. He was not prepared to discuss things at the depth they went as a group, he thought he and I would discuss it afterward, and he'd also discuss them with the IC and his sponsor later. I told him they were trying to see if he was capable of a human response, that is the only reason it played out that way. And he didn't deliver one. Still hadn't delivered one.

We talked about some of the boundaries I had, how the new circumstances would now change them. I need the debt in my name paid off ASAP. He said he was happy to put most of the bonus toward that, but it meant we could not continue to improve the house. I told him depending on the upcoming appraisal (for dropping PMI), we may not need to do them. If the house was really worth what Zillow.com was saying it was now (and of course that is not exact), we could sell the house as is, and there would be enough money to pay off all my debt and for me to start fresh.

He said that there were other means to pay the debt, but that didn't make sense unless I was planning to move back to Texas. I said I didn't want to move, I love that house and it would be hugely disruptive to the kids, but if we could not stay together, we could not afford separate households and keep that house. He reminded me of some expenses that will drop off next year, that perhaps we could. And he asked if living in the basement would not be an option. I told him we may be doing that anyway, but I was talking long term. I was not going to decide anything like that today.

I then realized I hadn't eaten dinner. So I said lets stop talking, go through a drive through so I can eat, and then go pick up the kids because it was close to time. The drive there he was trying to be supportive, asking if I had enough to eat, if the temp controls where ok, how we wanted to navigate the next day's activities with the kids. We arrived to pick up the kids early, so we sat in the car for ten minutes. He opted to read the manual of his new company car to figure out the AC/heat controls rather than discuss things further with me. I told him right before we got out to pick them up, I needed to sleep by myself tonight. Furthermore, since he gets up uber early on Sundays to go to his 12-step, he needs to get everything he needed so he would not wake me up when he left.

We came home, and he did everything to get everyone in bed so I didn't have to. He asked if he could hold me, continued to say he was sorry. He told me he loved me several times, but I did not return the favor.

He is gone now at his meeting. I have taken my rings off. I only need to take it one day at a time now, but today I don't want to wear them. I have a lot of thinking I need to do before I make my next move.

Yesterday morning, someone sent me one of those inspirational messages on Facebook, that disappointments are God's way of saying "I have something better." I had reposted it because I recently had a discussion with my daughter, and I wanted to show it to her. She had asked if people who believe in God and pray get what they want. And I told her no, they get what they need. And she didn't like that response, and I felt this one was better. But it rings very loudly with me now. He has chosen to show me who he really is, whether he realizes it or not. And while it may be the only thing I believe from him, I do.

[This message edited by hathnofury at 8:18 AM, December 2nd (Sunday)]

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6124671
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nowiknow23 ( member #33226) posted at 2:32 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

(((((hathnofury))))) I don't know what I could say to help at this point, honey. But I want you to know we're here.

Sending you strength.

You can call me NIK

And never grow a wishbone, daughter, where your backbone ought to be.
― Sarah McMane

posts: 40250   ·   registered: Aug. 29th, 2011
id 6124683
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putonahappyface ( member #30269) posted at 4:35 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

Hath, I'm so very sorry. You know the right path will reveal itself to you. As long as you & the kids continue to be safe in your home, you've got time. He obviously has been confused for a very long time.

Praying for you today.

[This message edited by putonahappyface at 10:44 PM, December 2nd (Sunday)]

BS (me) - 51; SAWH- 52 (hurtherbadly)
Married 28 yrs
2 DS - 21&17
Dday 6/4/2010. 2 EA/PA
11/15/12 update: discovered porn addiction
4 years out: M is strong; FWH is a new man :)

posts: 721   ·   registered: Dec. 1st, 2010   ·   location: Bluegrass
id 6124773
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SoVerySadNow ( member #36711) posted at 4:56 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

God this is awful. My heart goes out to you. Both my WH and I have been following your story, and have said how amazing and courageous you are.

I have no words of wisdom, just ((((HUGS)))).

Me:BW
Him:WH
D-day(s),after years of TT and Gaslighting was Labor Day Weekend 2012, continuing for a week after. *Dammit! More TT 3/9/13
Really trending toward D- planning about it is my "happy place" now.

posts: 1292   ·   registered: Sep. 4th, 2012   ·   location: Sunny Florida
id 6124791
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NowWhat106 ( member #35497) posted at 6:23 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

Dear Hath, I have followed your story from the beginning, as has my WH. I can't tell you how much admiration I have for your strength, compassion and devotion to your and your family's health and well-being. You have fought every way possible in this battle. You are an amazing person.

Please take care of yourself now and let this sink in. You must have faith that you have found your way through the most incredible adversity imaginable and you will know the right thing to do now, as well.

For the pain and sadness that I know this new hurt is causing, I can only send you huge hugs of support.

((((((Hath))))))

Me BS
Him WS
LTEA with old HS GF from 25+ years ago
DD #1: 10/6/2011
DD #2: 10/21/2011
2DS under18
My marriage didn’t survive but I did

posts: 687   ·   registered: May. 2nd, 2012
id 6124861
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k9lover1 ( member #8531) posted at 6:59 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

What questions are asked in the poly. And did he fail on specific questions or all questions.

D-Day was 10/9/05
He promised NC. He lied. After 4 chances, I kicked him out 1/05/06.
Since then I have survived cancer surgery and a heart attack.
Now he's sorry, but it's too late. He died an alcoholic on 9/5/17.

posts: 8165   ·   registered: Oct. 17th, 2005   ·   location: Wisconsin
id 6124884
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Missymomma ( member #36988) posted at 7:10 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

Oh, Hath. I am so very sorry. This is just soul crushing. You really are just incredibly strong. Sounds like you are taking steps to take care of yourself and are still in shock. (((((BIG HUGS))))).

DDay - 6/15/11
R started - 7/1/11
False Discl- 9/27/12
Real Discl - 2/12/13
Poly - 3/1/13 Pass!
Me - BS (46)
WH - 52 (SA, NA, WA)
Kids: 2 littles and 1 grown
The road to recovery is long and hard. Some days I am up for it and others not!

posts: 1084   ·   registered: Sep. 30th, 2012   ·   location: Texas
id 6124894
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CheaterMagnet ( member #33581) posted at 7:37 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

There just isn't a hug big enough to cover what I want to give you right now. I can't even imagine the devastation.

I just have no words, but I am here for you any time, in any way.

If Happy Ever After did exist, I would still be holding you like this.
All those fairly tales are full of shit.
One more fucking love song I'll be sick. ~ Maroon 5

posts: 1968   ·   registered: Oct. 11th, 2011
id 6124914
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Jrazz ( member #31349) posted at 7:49 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

(((hathnofury)))

"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." - Deeply Scared's mom

posts: 29076   ·   registered: Feb. 28th, 2011   ·   location: California
id 6124923
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BrokenPieces ( member #7685) posted at 8:14 PM on Sunday, December 2nd, 2012

(((HUGE HUGS))) sweetie. I can't even imagine. Breathe. Take one day at a time, and if that is too much, take it by the hour. You are in my prayers.

BS-43
Red Headed Imps 14 & 11
DDay 1/05
Divorce final 6/21/06
My new life is GRAND.
Married my new beginning 6/09

posts: 2321   ·   registered: Jul. 24th, 2005   ·   location: Greater Seattle Area
id 6124944
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 hathnofury (original poster member #32550) posted at 5:50 PM on Monday, December 3rd, 2012

Thank you all for your kind words and support.

What questions are asked in the poly. And did he fail on specific questions or all questions.

I haven't seen the actual written report yet, and I don't think I will until after poly guy returns from vacation in January. But if I go off what SAWH tells me, and from what I remember from the poly guy, the questions included (and I am paraphrasing, it may not be the exact wording):

Are you intending to lie in this polygraph?

Have you ever intentionally lied to someone?

Have you acted out sexually with anyone under the age of 18?

Have you adhered to the sobriety rules as defined by SA for the past six months?

Questions about the contents of his disclosure, and whether he omitted anything.

Control questions for reference, like are you wearing a hat and are you in Canada right now?

And a few others I don't remember.

He failed across all questions. While that is not uncommon, you usually pass or fail all of them, the impression I got was he was amazingly failing all of them. I can't confirm that until I see the written report.

Before he started these questions, he did a control run where SAWH had to pick a number between 1 and 10 and then say "NO" when asked if it was 1, 2, etc whether it was or not. This was to get a baseline for a known lie.

The poly guy also worked with SAWH to refine some questions. The purpose of refining the questions is to make them black and white, and SAWH sees nothing but shades of gray. So there was a breakdown in both refining the questions properly and in SAWH's participation. For example, the sexual acting out with minors. SAWH said, well as a teen I acted out with other teens. And in Texas, at least at the time I was 21, you could be a stripper at 17. And it is very possible that one or more of the hookers I saw *could* have been underage, but there's no way to know for sure. So poly guy says, except for that then, and SAWH says no. But as I understand it once there is that many exceptions in your head to the question it is virtually impossible pass it. IMO it should have been thrown out, or SAWH should have just said yes.

But then another example, have you intentionally lied, SAWH said yes and gave a couple of examples from growing up, because poly guy said ok, you blow those examples out, then answer, it should be no (according to SAWH). So he says no, despite obviously he has been lying to me for 15 years. I said if it were me, I would have said yes, and he should have said yes. Honestly I don't know how anyone could say no and pass that, we have all told lies at some point in our life.

The crux of the issue is SAWH rationalizes and makes exceptions and avoids answering questions directly in general. So it could very well be he has not acted out the past six months per SA definition, has not ever exposed the kids to his acting out, etc. But because of his wired response to being asked anything, it could very well be because of that he would fail each and every poly given to him even if he was asked direct/specific/no shades of gray questions and was telling the truth. In short, he could have not done anything wrong in the past six months, been asked more specific questions, told the truth, and still failed because of his (abnormal, not healthy) thought processes.

I hope that answers your questions about the poly. But the real question is do I really want to be with someone who is like that?

[This message edited by hathnofury at 12:43 PM, December 3rd (Monday)]

BS 43, SAWH 38. M 15years, together 17. Body count in the triple digits. Both in recovery, trying to R.
Three kids under age 11.

posts: 1503   ·   registered: Jun. 21st, 2011
id 6126038
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k9lover1 ( member #8531) posted at 6:43 PM on Monday, December 3rd, 2012

If he had worked for hours on the questions that were to be asked, then there is no reason he shouldn't have been able to answer with a precise yes or no to each question. Even with his hard-wired brain, he knows right from wrong and yes from no. Does the poly examiner agree with the idea that because of his specific wiring he would ultimately fail any test? I'm a little sceptical of that.

I can see where the fact that he failed so miserably would be such a blow. You seemed pretty confident that he would pass. He has really put you between a rock and a hard place now. He's obviously an intelligent person, but he's acting pretty stupid right now.

You have some very tough decisions ahead. I don't evny you.

[This message edited by k9lover1 at 12:50 PM, December 3rd (Monday)]

D-Day was 10/9/05
He promised NC. He lied. After 4 chances, I kicked him out 1/05/06.
Since then I have survived cancer surgery and a heart attack.
Now he's sorry, but it's too late. He died an alcoholic on 9/5/17.

posts: 8165   ·   registered: Oct. 17th, 2005   ·   location: Wisconsin
id 6126126
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