SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

After reading here for years, the pattern seems to be the bh/fww dynamic is very different in some ways.

The OM rarely do dishes, non-sexual contact, etc. It may help a bit, but if you read the I can relate threads, or threads here, the results seem less successful than the FWH/BW threads.

I think part of it is cultural - our society treats women differently. They often don't know how to initiate in a healthy way. And expecting a BH to continue to initiate after rejection and being given the ultimate rejection? It may be unreasonable.

I also see lots of abuse/foo issues, sadly. And women are more likely to be victims. So that is also very hard to deal with.

I think you need to assume there is some reverse-gender Madonna/whore complex (or bad boy sexy/good boy safe).

If true, and she isn't going to therapy, you may need to be more "bad." Seriously. Reclaim some parts of you, even if slightly unhealthy. What is the saying? Crazy attracts crazy?

Try to change the environment, if possible. Travel, change jobs, move. She may be able to ditch the unhealthy personae easier.

You can't settle.

And while demanding sex is probably counter-productive, as others point out, making her focus more on the pre-sex environment could be. Demand that she exercise, read romance, dress nicely - whatever helps her get in the mood. It isn't just your job to woo her - she has to do her part, and that starts way before the bedroom.

Good luck!

Here's what I mean by 'requirements for R'.

It's a negotiated list of behaviors that are agreed to by both sides, a contract, if you will. It can most definitely include requiremenst for BS behaviors, if the partners desire.

As I've written, one of my reqs is that my W has to initiate sex sometimes. If she didn't want to do that, we might have dropped or changed the req - for example, 'once/month/week/year' instead of 'sometimes'.

That one wasn't a dealkiller. If she had refused to go NC, I'd have thrown her out.

Yes, I demanded sex, but my W could have rejected my demand. Further, she can reject any specific offer or request for sex. It's just that if she wants to stay in our M, she can't refuse too often. (We've found she rarely wants to refuse....)

One of the good things about setting up requirements is the communication that goes into them. Ideally, the communication builds a set of behaviors & deliverables, if you will, that both partners commit to. It's really helped us.

I guess I just have to respectfully disagree Sisoon.

I can understand making NC a requirement, MC and IC a requirement. Things of that nature for reconciliation.

But sex? Demanding it? Even if she's "allowed" to reject it, the fact that you say you're demanding it, it just sounds like a selfish demand. I mean, you say she can refuse, but not too much. Well, how often is too much? Who determines that? You?? Do you tell her OK, you can only reject me one more time and then that's it, your out?

Again, I understand you're the BS here, but, the for women, sex is viewed SO differently than men. Men place so much more emphasis on the physical act, where as women place much more on the emotional intimacy. And I know for me, if *I* don't feel emotionally connected, it's VERY difficult for me to have sex with my husband. So for him to DEMAND sex, would cause resentment from me, which would cause less emotional intimacy, hich would cause more resentment when we did have sex because I would feel used, like an object, which would want to make me reject/refuse/avoid, which would make him resent me. It would turn into a vicious vicious cycle. I know this, because we lived this. When he tried to "demand" and I refused, he'd pout, he'd withhold love and affection, he'd ignore me. I'd feel like nothing more than just another sexual outlet for him. I mean, we didn't even kiss during sex because there was NO connection there, ever. I did feel that I was forcing myself, that it was an expectation. I'd think in my mind "Hurry up already".

But now???? It's not like that. Because we EACH focus on the others needs. He's realized how he used to treat me. He never ever demands from me anymore. He tries to have that connection with me. He realized how he made me feel (after months of therapy). I started understanding that sex is his way of showing caring and love to me. Meaning, we started working together instead of placing demands on each other when it comes to sex. I just can't live that way.

Well, how often is too much? Who determines that? You??

sisoon very clearly stated, that it was negotiated by both parties.

but, the for women, sex is viewed SO differently than men

Not all women.

All because some women might view sex differently than men, does not mean the women are right. Just different.

I started understanding that sex is his way of showing caring and love to me. Meaning, we started working together

Exactly! That is not the case here. OP wife has refused to work with him at all, so she is the one that is dictating everything, hardly fair at all.

So how long must he wait for his wife to meet his needs? A week? A month? A year? A decade? Never gonna happen?

Reclaim some parts of you, even if slightly unhealthy.

Why does he have to adopt unhealthy traits? What does that solve? Now, both are messed up. Shouldn't the goal be Healthy????

I see a double standard in play. Most women aren't used to stepping up to plate so to speak, and making themselves the one to be rejected. I can not even imagine how I would feel, if my husband rejected me over and over and over after having had sex with someone else. The constant blows to my worth, my self esteem, my desirability. Then, if I sought out help, to be told, that I didn't understand men, and I should start putting oil in the car, and mow the lawn, or watch more hockey with him, then...and only maybe...would I be worthy of affection. And how awful I was to even expect any type of affection to begin with. Who did I think I was? Didnt I know, that men rule the bedroom and whatever they say is right.

But sex? Demanding it? Even if she's "allowed" to reject it, the fact that you say you're demanding it, it just sounds like a selfish demand. I mean, you say she can refuse, but not too much. Well, how often is too much? Who determines that? You?? Do you tell her OK, you can only reject me one more time and then that's it, your out?

Unless you're going to say it's okay for a F/WH to set his own terms and timetables to open up honest communication and express his emotions to his BW then all the above there is a major double standard. Why is it okay to expect a man to open up all his secret weaknesses to a woman after he's stabbed her in the heart, but accept that kind of rejection from a woman AFTER she's rejected you on that front via another man?

I went without physical affection from my wife for over a year. I am a "Want to have sex with my wife 6 times a day" guy and being denied sex and even a gentle touch on the shoulder in passing down the hall was like being consigned to a layer of hell. I don't look at her like a piece of meat, but I demand sex/touch/kissing/hugs also. If she can't try to find a middle ground then I can decide we're done.

I dunno. I get the whole thing about women having body and sex issues but you flip that around to the other stereotype, nobody bats an eyelash about demanding a guy get all touchy feely in front of a total stranger he's paying 150 bucks an hour to tell him how he fucked everything up.

You should not allow yourself to be used or treated like meat, but that's not what every BH here demanding sex from their wife wants. Heck, if that's all it was about the madhatter card would probably be in play.

Sam, I made sex part of my reqs for my R, not for anyone else's. I have also recommended that others consider doing so. At the same time, I know everyone has to find his/her path through this mess, and a req for sex isn't on everyone's path.

More import IMO, I readily and joyfully admit that demanding sex is selfish for me. What is M if it's not a relationship that increasee the two partners' ability to get more of what each of them wants? It's not that EITHER one partner OR the other gets his/her selfish desires met. Most of the time, BOTH of us get our selfish desires fulfilled simultaneously. That's part of why we have stayed together so long and want to stay together still.

If she rejects me 'too much', I suspect we'd talk about the issue, and if necessary bring it to MC. I expect we'd be able to resolve the issue if it ever comes up. As it happens, I've been a lot less available than she's been, BTW.

Let me shock you further - my W has to enjoy initiating sex. She has to want to initiate. As of D-Day, she hadn't initiated in years. It turned out not to be a problem - she's found initiating to be pretty rewarding.

In a sense, my reqs for (my) R are really a way to ask for my most important wants. I DO recommend documenting reqs for R to everyone, so let me recommend this:

If you want sex a certain way, and that's an important want for you, document it, discuss it with your WS or BS, and come to an agreement - but you have to go for what you & and your partner want, not what anyone else does, and your agreement has to come from your own free wills.

(((hugs to all)))