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OK – you CAN ask your wife for a changed relationship (polyamory or an open marriage) but she can refuse it. If you persist then SHE has two realistic options; accept polyamory or end the marriage.

I know this and share your views on polyamory completely.

Before the trip with just me and OW, I never asked for polyamory. My wife had talked about it, but I felt uncomfortable because I was firmly entrenched in my delusion that I was "just friends" with OW. Once I realized my feelings for OW were romantic, I did ask for polyamory. My wife said no. Maybe I asked for a few days, I don't remember, to be honest. But certainly after that first week, I never asked for it again.

To be honest, I used to be biased against polyamorous people. I had seen cases where it turned out poorly. I even thought my friend was foolish for attempting it since she and her husband had children. But I was trying to be more tolerant.

Why did I ask for it? Because I thought I felt love for two people and before I had not thought myself capable of such a thing. So it seemed like something to consider. Plus I was really foggy and couldn't imagine giving up either.

But, again, I haven't asked for it since January.

One thing a WS needs to start an affair is a sense of entitlement. Narcissists have a grand sense of entitlement. You were somewhat honest with your wife but at the core of the bullying was entitlement that made you think you needed/wanted/deserved to have a relationship with the OW because she made you happy and the only thing that stood in your way was your BW.

This sounds very accurate, yes. The parts of narcissism that do sound like me are having low self esteem, needing others to love me because i don't love myself (I have no idea how one would love oneself, to be honest), and having an idea that I'm somehow special. I do get the feeling like I am special and I feel down because I feel I haven't lived up to it. For example, I feel like I should have done certain things that would be great in my eyes (esp. in terms of writing), but I've never lived up to that.

However, I don't generally lie or manipulate people and I don't see myself as better than other people or feel that I need to hang out with other special people. A lot of the stuff I read about NPD just doesn't fit me at all.

But yes, I did feel like it'd be end of the world if I lost or scaled back the relationship I had with OW. I felt like BW was holding me back. And so I insisted. And yes, this was pursueing an affair and it was wrong.

Did you believe your BW when she told you OW wasn't nice to you when you wern't around?

If not,do you believe her now?

And,if you believe her now,then how can you say OW didnt realize this wasnt just a friendship? It sounds as if OW knew exactly where things were headed,and she was jealous of your BW.

I do believe, based on my experience with NPD (which is pretty significant), you do have some traits that will be stumbling blocks in any relationship. Therefore, just because you may not fit the criteria for the full-blown disorder, you still may have issues (and likely do) with narcissistic traits that will need addressing before you can have any successful relationship.

One loves oneself by accepting oneself, warts and all, AND by challenging that self to be better each and every day. It's a combination of acceptance and challenge. I accept that I will probably never be America's Next Top Model or win a beauty contest. But I can be a good mom to my kids, a good partner to my significant other and a good and honest employee for the company I work for. I can challenge myself by self-improvement (physical and mental) and by taking others' feedback to heart. For me, loving myself means that I don't have to have a source of outside validation. I don't need someone to reflect back to me either who I am or who I want to be. I am me. Sure, it's nice to be recognized and receive kudos and such. That's great. But I don't seek out people who constantly stroke my ego or make up stories to get people to admire me or exaggerate truths (or bad traits in others) to gain sympathy from others.

I get the feeling (could be wrong) that part of the bonding that happened between you and the OW was based on you detailing your BW's shortcomings and her empathizing with your "pain" and "problems." This is very much a part of the script between a WS and an AP, FYI. I call it "bonding via the common enemy."

The most distressing NPD trait that I see you exhibit is your lack of empathy. A lot of that is due to my experience with lack of empathy, which, from the BS perspective, is hell on earth when the person you love and cherish seemingly doesn't give a fig about your feelings compared to what they want.

Cat

lostone,

I've read your initial post but started swimming thru 6 pages of replies. I'm just gonna keep it basic here cause really, there's not much else anyone can say at this point.

You originally asked:

is it reasonable for my wife to ask me to have no fondness for my memories of OW at all?

Shoot I dunno. Do you think your wife should mix up a couple drinks, sit on the back deck with you at sunset and ask you about what a "babe" your OW was? How warm and fuzzy she made you feel? Hey, maybe you two can make a scrapbook together to showcase all your fond memories. Is that more reasonable for you?

And how can I possibly get over OW?

Maybe by actually trying? NC is NC. Not only physically but mentally. Quit looking up Miss Awesome online. Quit stalking her every move on the internet. Quit replaying all the things you did with her in your mind.

Is it hard? Heck yes. There is a withdrawl. I "get" that. When my mind drifted to OM, I started reading stories to my kids, watching youtube, calling my Mom, anything to keep my mind busy. He wasn't worth the headspace.

See, every WS comes to SI thinking they are special. They are different. Their love with OW/OM is incredible. That's a crock. It's an illusion. It's this artificial world we've dreamed up in our mind. It's not reality. The whole thing was an illusion, or rather, dillusion. Shoot I thought OM loved me. Dude was married with two kids and said he'd never leave them, but we were "special". Riiiight. We had to sneak around and talk. He'd "work" at his studio and we'd talk. He'd race home from work before his wife got home so we could webcam. Yeah, that's a special kinda love right there.

But hey, if you are a rare person who managed to find "real" true love with an OW, hats off and congrats dude.

You have a choice lostone. Sit there in unicorn land daydreaming about your amazingly awesome OW while your wife dumps your butt, or you get yourself into gear and do the hard work.

But yes, I did feel like it'd be end of the world if I lost or scaled back the relationship I had with OW.

You idealize her. Was there anything negative at all about your affair with her?

When was the last time you talked to the OW?

I felt like BW was holding me back. And so I insisted.

What goes through your head when you think of letting your BW go? When you think of divorcing your BW? What do you imagine, when you imagine life without your BW? Where would you see yourself in 10 years if you were not married to or friends with your BW? If you never got to see your BW again?

When was the last time you talked to your BW?

And yes, this was pursueing an affair and it was wrong.

Why was it wrong? Be specific?

I call it "bonding via the common enemy."

Totally agree. I think this is common in workplace affairs. And when you look at it, very immature. If you have a complaint. Take it to the person who can make a difference or quit. Gossiping about it is an immature way to handle problems. (I know some WS's are thinking, but we were "friends" working on our respective problems...work, marriage, etc...uh, ok...)

The most distressing NPD trait that I see you exhibit is your lack of empathy. A lot of that is due to my experience with lack of empathy, which, from the BS perspective, is hell on earth when the person you love and cherish seemingly doesn't give a fig about your feelings compared to what they want.

You absolutely don't have to be full blown NPD or any other PD to recognize you identify with traits that are a SERIOUS problem that you really need to work on. I can tell you that lack of empathy is a dealkiller in my book. WH/BH has a HUGE problem with that & did that before, during, and monstrously after his first A. HELL.ON.EARTH.

Frankly, if I was your OW, I'd run for the hills after seeing that. And on the flipside, as you get healthier, trust me, you WON'T want to be with OW...

And, frankly, none of you know the circumstances of my friend's arrangements. I didn't got into details at all. I only really know about her arrangements and experiences from what she's told me

And all we know is what you have told us. That is already enough info for many here to fill in the blanks. We actually have many poly members here, they still find themselves in JFO when someone breaks the rules.

Humans are unique because of the complex interactions of various traits, but the traits themselves are not that complicated. The advice you are getting is not just from people who have been there and done that, but people who have then held the hands of countless others while they went through things. Even those who are saying that your wife should run for her own sake want you to learn from this, and fix the errors in your thinking, because it is the only way you will be able to have a fulfilling and safe relationship with anyone in the future.

With all of that being said, everyone is telling you to go NC with OW, but it seems to be taken for granted that you know what this means. It is a little more complicated than just no longer doing A stuff together, you can't even go back to being friends, you can't reminisce about the past. What NC means:

No Contact,

No Communication,

No Checking,

No Crap (like momentos, souvenirs, like gifts, songs on your iPod), and eventually

No Cognizant.

When you reach that final state, you will begin to see things differently. OW may not be a bad person, and you may also not be a bad person, however the two of you together are quite a bad combination.

I get the feeling (could be wrong) that part of the bonding that happened between you and the OW was based on you detailing your BW's shortcomings and her empathizing with your "pain" and "problems." This is very much a part of the script between a WS and an AP, FYI. I call it "bonding via the common enemy."

I didn't do this, actually. Well, I did it once, right near the end, when I complained to OW about how frustrated I was that BW was complaining so much and I felt we were "just friends". BW was really hurt by this and I agreed not to talk about our marriage with her again.

Before this, however, I always presented our marriage as sunshine and roses. I never let OW in on the fights we were having. OW even drew a picture of BW and me gaming together. I would tell OW about stuff BW and I did, but only the good things.

BW confirms that I only did this once, so I am not delusional on this front.

The most distressing NPD trait that I see you exhibit is your lack of empathy. A lot of that is due to my experience with lack of empathy, which, from the BS perspective, is hell on earth when the person you love and cherish seemingly doesn't give a fig about your feelings compared to what they want.

It's funny. I usually have plenty of empathy. BW confirms that I used to have lots of empathy for her and that's one of the reasons she liked me when she met me. And I had boatloads of empathy for OW. One of the things I liked about being with OW was talking to her about and giving her advice on things that troubled her. I'm sure my empathy is one of the things OW likes about me, to be honest. Do I need NRE to be empathetic?

I donno. I still feel like I'm empathetic with BW now, but both she and all of you don't seem to think so. I find it frustrating, but you must be seeing something.

I broke up with OW, actually, because of seeing BW in so much pain and hearing her talk about what it was like. Isn't that empathy?

I guess the resenting it is a sign of a lack of empathy?

There seems to be some confusion about the state of NC with OW. Just to give a summary again:

January 2012: I had a breakup chat with OW with my BW watching. I didn't tell her I loved her then because my BW didn't want me to. I did essentially say so in code, though. I told OW she deserved better than me and that I had to not talk to her for awhile. I also said I hoped we could be actual just friends someday. I didn't know anything about how NC letter should be at this point.

After this, I had no contact with OW and did not follow her art site or blog.

Mid February 2012: with BW's permission, I started watching OW's art site and blogs. BW had seen a post OW made about receiving a Valentine's day gift and felt she had to tell me about it. I still did not talk to OW. She did not attempt to contact me, though she did do the equivalent of "liking" a few photos I posted from a trip BW and I made. But she did not comment on my social media.

Mid March 2012: BW insisted I stop following OW and do true NC. I thought this was a dealbreaker for me, but when the deadline came around at MC, and I heard her talk about leaving, I couldn't live with it and agreed. When we got home, I defriended/dewatched her sites. I was very angry about it, but I did it.

June 2012: Despite months of NC (and I did try to stop thinking about OW so much too), my BW still planned on leaving. She said it was ok to resume contact and I said I was going to do so carefuly. I worked on recording my feelings and writing some stuff I wanted to before doing so.

July 2012: I started actually looking at stuff OW posted. Then I emailed her to wish her a happy birthday and said I hoped she had been well. She replied saying that my email completely made her day. BW was very upset about our emails - she thought they looked like we were trying to get back together, rather than me try to figure myself out.

I then chatted with OW. a few days later but it was a bit awkward. I tried to make it short but confessed to still having feelings for OW cause I wanted to be honest.

In the next few days, BW decided she had to leave immediately. I convinced her to try staying with my dad (more preferable to her than her own parents) for a few days, hoping that a temporary separation would get me to where i needed to be. Our main issue was the fondness for memories that I've mentioned.

I was desperate and contacted OW again during this time, including a five hour voice chat at night. I asked OW about her feelings about things and what she hadn't said certain things. I was hoping I'd be able to view her in a new light and not through the fog.

I contacted her again a few days later when BW was upset and wanted to return to our area and then move out. I asked OW the questions about how she saw me and then talked again, desperate to fix things since I was about to loes BW forever. It ended with OW realizing her part in all this and crying, me worrying about her, and voice chatting again. Ended with an awkward goodbye, maybe forever. At this time, my feelings for OW had grown again and I was deep in the fog.

Then (about a week and a half ago) I convinced BW to stay here. As a condintion of staying, I must not contact OW. She says it's ok if I do, but she'll leave. She's currently working on getting a place of her own and even has a place lined up, though she's waiting for the final paperwork to sign. It should come any day now and she'll be moving into her new place on the 15th. She's planning on taking a trip once the paper work is done and seeing some friends.

OW did make a comment on something I posted, but I did not respond.

As a last attempt, I decided to come here and see if I could do anything to save our M before she is gone for good.

You idealize her. Was there anything negative at all about your affair with her?

Sure. It ruined my marriage, for one. It hurt my BW a lot.

Also, I didn't get enough sleep because I spent so much time with OW and BW. The jealousy I felt toward OW's friends was really annoying.

Negative traits about OW: she can seem a bit selfish, though I'm not 100% sure why I feel that way. But when I think about negative traits for her, being self-centered seems to come up. Oddly, it came up for her when describing me, too.

When was the last time you talked to the OW?

About a week and a half ago. See the timeline I posted just above this.

What goes through your head when you think of letting your BW go?

"OMG, no! We're meant to be together - this can't be happening. I love her so much. How did it get to be like this? But... she's so unhappy. I do want her to be happy and I don't think I can be the way she wants me to be. But... OMG, no, we've been together for so many years and I don't want to disappoint that 14 year old girl who believed in me all those years ago..."

(I'm crying right now...)

When you think of divorcing your BW?

Same as above, but with the added shame of all my friends and family knowing. Right now, only my father knows about what's going on with us.

What do you imagine, when you imagine life without your BW?

Terror. I don't know how to live life without her. On the other hand, after the initial scariness, I did feel some odd freedom when my BW was away for a few days recently. I found myself singing outloud for the first time in over a decade. I've pretty much never been home alone since my Bw tends to stay here a lot. So I've never had a chance to just be by myself. And apparently the reason I never sing is because I'm afraid of people hearing me.

But... I don't want life without BW. I know I shouldn't get with OW, but if she left, I know I would try. I might try to be just friends at first, but I know this would likely go back to how things were. OW will be close to my area to visit a relative in a few weeks. It'd be very tempting to see her.

And... I'm terrified of doing to OW what I did to BW. Terrified. One of the things that's really scared me is how when people leave their marriages to be with the OP, it usually doesn't work out and they do the same thing again, but sooner. I don't want to go into that death spiral.

Plus, OW suffered a lot of abuse as a child too and has some major issues. That'll be "fun" without the NRE kicking in.

Where would you see yourself in 10 years if you were not married to or friends with your BW?

Ugh. I don't know. I thought I'd spend the rest of my life with BW. I always took it for granted. Literally, I suppose. But in general, I never have been able to answer "5 years from now" or "10 years from now" questions. I don't plan that far ahead. I live in the moment.

At present, I'm very unhappy with my job as well. I hate my line of work. But I can't think of a job I'd actually like. This may be related to ADD? I don't know. I've always been miserable doing something I don't want to do. It's a painful struggle. Yes, I know this makes me sound like an entitled jerk. But it's how I feel.

If you never got to see your BW again?

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons I remained in NC with OW when I did. I can't imagine this. It's a nightmare. Ughhhhh.

I'm also terrified of "waking up" after BW has left and not being able to get back with her. I'm worried I'll start seeing everything as she does and regret it all so much and not be able to get back and live the rest of my life miserable and alone.

I'm also worried about other things, but BW asked me not to share them. We've been through some things I haven't been able to share that were pretty traumatic. She doesn't think they're relevant, though I do. But I'm trying to respect her.

When was the last time you talked to your BW?

We talk all the time. Always have. That's never changed.

Why was it wrong? Be specific?

Because I didn't respect my wife. Because I wasn't there for her. Because I lied to her by lying to myself. Because I put my energy and love into another relationship instead of in ours. Because I didn't get her consent to have the relationship. Because I made excuses when she complained about OW instead of being there for her. Ugh.

(Edited to answer last two questions)

[This message edited by lostone209 at 12:42 AM, August 3rd (Friday)]

And all we know is what you have told us. That is already enough info for many here to fill in the blanks. We actually have many poly members here, they still find themselves in JFO when someone breaks the rules.

Yes, but sometimes some of your fill in the blanks incorrectly.

I honestly don't know what's in my friends's H's heart of hearts. When she first told me about this (after I had met OW but before we had become close), I asked her a lot about how she knew he was ok with it and not just going along with it to keep her and the kids. I don't know. Apparently, he and her secondary became friends and game together online and stuff. On the other hand, I know they've fought about the time she spends with him too. And they've had ups and downs. She has said that their marriage never got nearly as bad as what my BW and I have gone through.

As far as I can tell from interacting with him, he's basically ok with their arrangement even if he's not poly himself. But he might not be and I wouldn't be terribly shocked if it all blew up in their faces.

Anyway - I didn't want to share these details cause it's irrelevant to what's going on with me.

You have never gone NC with the OW. You went physical NC for six months - but that's nothing. You need physical NC forever.

And then you need mental NC. That means no googling, no facebooking, no whitepages just to look up her address. It means deleting every email, every chat session, every momento. It means throwing away the plane ticket of the times you met up, every card, every souvenir. It means not fantasizing, not recalling, not putting her in a pretty box in your head to savor on your drive to work. It means never listening to songs she liked, music that reminds you of her, tv shows.

I don't think I could do that. I'd be getting rid of too much of myself. I'm a very sentimental person. Plus, a lot of my writing involved OW. No way I could get rid of that writing.

Also, what about things that remind me of her that I run into otherwise? Like, for example, I'm watching a new movie with BW and the characters in the movie visit a place that OW used to make youtube videos at and this reminds me of my OW's love of X . Or how in another movie the characters are sitting in a certain place and talking in a certain way that was just like OW and I used to. It seems impossible to get away from this.

But getting rid of art OW did for me and deleting photos of our trips and chat logs and all the stuff I wrote? No way could I do that.

What's wrong with integrating? what's wrong with understand the negative sides and implications while also still retaining the memories? Do I really need to whitewash over half a year of my life?

I know I'm going to get slammed for this post, But it's how I feel.

Did you believe your BW when she told you OW wasn't nice to you when you wern't around?

I believed that was how she experienced it. But I also made excuses for OW. Instead of taking her side like I should have because you are always supposed to be on your spouse's side,

There were only a couple times when they were alone together, both on the October 2011 trip. In one instance, I said that OW was just in a bad mood because of being around our friend's kids since she isn't comfortable around kids.

If not,do you believe her now?

Honestly? I don't know. I guess I still feel the mostly likely scenario is that BW wasn't happy with OW (for good reason) and OW was uncomfortable around BW. And so she got quiet and came off as mean. I donno. I hate myself, I guess.

And,if you believe her now,then how can you say OW didnt realize this wasnt just a friendship? It sounds as if OW knew exactly where things were headed,and she was jealous of your BW.

One can be jealous of someone without realizing it and without realizing where things were headed. I think OW was just as clueless as I was. We both should have known.

First, let me say that I've been following this, and it is probably one of the most fascinating threads I've seen so far on here. I appreciate you opening up and letting us all in, even though I'm sure it's hard to hear some of the feedback you are getting.

However, I'm now going to join in, if you don't mind!

OW did make a comment on something I posted, but I did not respond.

Why is she not officially blocked from making comments? This is not true NC. I have a hunch that eventually you will choose to respond if it's that easy for her to contact you.

Like, for example, I'm watching a new movie with BW and the characters in the movie visit a place that OW used to make youtube videos at and this reminds me of my OW's love of X . Or how in another movie the characters are sitting in a certain place and talking in a certain way that was just like OW and I used to. It seems impossible to get away from this.

I think you turn it off. Whatever it is, you stop watching and tell your BS why. I would much rather have my WSO turn off something we are watching and tell me that it reminds her of OP rather than me being oblivious to the fact that I think we are bonding by spending time together with a bunch of stuff that is really just bringing back fond memories of OP for her. If that means you don't watch a movie together for a year, so be it. Find other ways to spend quality time together. I know this probably sounds unreasonable to you, but if you truly want to be 'all in,' you'll need to do things like this.

But getting rid of art OW did for me and deleting photos of our trips and chat logs and all the stuff I wrote? No way could I do that.

With all due respect, this right here...I would be gone. I think this says it all.

OW did make a comment on something I posted, but I did not respond.

Do you mean to say that you guys are still connected on Facebook?

Trust me and every other WS who tells you this: NC does means complete disconnect; as if she were not alive anymore. You also delete all the memorabilia, yes. Because they now became memorabilia of how you and her hurt your wife.

I think you turn it off. Whatever it is, you stop watching and tell your BS why. I would much rather have my WSO turn off something we are watching and tell me that it reminds her of OP rather than me being oblivious to the fact that I think we are bonding by spending time together with a bunch of stuff that is really just bringing back fond memories of OP for her. If that means you don't watch a movie together for a year, so be it. Find other ways to spend quality time together. I know this probably sounds unreasonable to you, but if you truly want to be 'all in,' you'll need to do things like this.

But almost everything reminds me of OW. Should I never go to the mountains because they remind me of her? The ocean?

Hell, many birds that I see remind me of her - we both had a love of birds and she's an avid birder.

I included her in almost everything I enjoy in life. How can I just avoid all of that?

It just seems so much more realistic to try to integrate my memories rather than just running away from them. I know this isn't recommended, but I don't know how I can cut out my memories of her without cutting out myself.

Do you mean to say that you guys are still connected on Facebook?

Not facebook, but yes, she still follows me on another site. Until I contacted her again, she never commented on anything I posted, though. She also avoided some places online that I went to in order to let me go to them. I did the same for her.

Trust me and every other WS who tells you this: NC does means complete disconnect; as if she were not alive anymore. You also delete all the memorabilia, yes. Because they now became memorabilia of how you and her hurt your wife.

So memories of bad things are worthless? Really? We should forget everything bad we ever did? It's part of my life. I feel it'd violate my integrity to just delete all the stuff. I can understand no contact, but not the whitewashing of one's life. Doesn't seem healthy to me.

It just seems so much more realistic to try to integrate my memories rather than just running away from them.

I think the difference here is that a lot of the WSs on here are saying that if/when they need to integrate their memories, they try to make them negative and they relate it to the hurt they've caused. You seem to want to keep the memories positive. I have no advice for you about this as I haven't been in your position, but surely you should be able to do something about this. There are psychological techniques you can use to try to make this happen...that I do know. I'm just not seeing that you want to.

I also think (and I know what I'm thinking in my head, but I'm not sure it's going to come out clear in words) that the fact that almost EVERYTHING reminds you of her is something that you are, again, creating. I've had best friends for 10-20 years, and I've done many things with them throughout that time. But, at the end of the day, I don't have THAT many reminders of them. I don't think about them every time I drive down that ONE street, eat a slice of pizza, see an animal, see a blue car, or whatever. I just think (and I don't know, obviously) that the reason you are having so many reminders of her is because you just simply want to.

I know it doesn't seem "healthy" to you; it is very recognizable. Remember: We post here to help, so please read and really parse what we are saying:

Your memorabilia to your wife are now the equivalent of you keeping memorabilia of how she ended up in a car crash. They are pure hurt and pain to her.

In time, even the songs that you associate with the OW will hurt you too -- at least, once you reach the stage where you get to see and feel how much pain your BS is having. Trust me; those songs, mountains, and oceans you'll want to avoid yourself cause they will pain you as much as your wife.

It all to me just sounds like you haven't reached that stage yet. The faster way to /reach/ that stage is to get rid of as much of the crap that trigger you to think of OW, so that you can start thinking about your BS instead.