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In time, even the songs that you associate with the OW will hurt you too -- at least, once you reach the stage where you get to see and feel how much pain your BS is having. Trust me; those songs, mountains, and oceans you'll want to avoid yourself cause they will pain you as much as your wife.

lostone, THIS is what we all want. My WSO isn't at this stage yet, either. She doesn't feel the pain I do when that one song comes on the radio or when we drive by 'that damn restaurant.' She triggers me right and left without often realizing it. But she does turn the radio station when she sees that look in my eye or she will take a different route to get somewhere so we don't have to pass by that restaurant. I used to have to ask her to do these things; now she's starting to recognize them and do them on her own.

These things may not be hurting her in the way they have hurt me yet, and maybe they never will. I will need to make my decision about our relationship at that point and decide what I can and can't handle if she doesn't get to that point. But, at the same time, she understands why it makes me sad and angry. She tries to stop it. She tries to help me. She sees my pain in those moments, and I can SEE that she really does feel bad. And she says that every time something like that happens, she feels worse and worse about what she did. She's starting to express that her memories aren't that fond anymore...how could they be after this is where she's at after it all? I can't speak for her personally, so I don't know what's going on in her head...I can only tell you what she's said to me. And that means a lot sometimes, even though it doesn't seem like she's quite at the place I'd like her to be yet.

Imagine:

There is a room, empty room and in that room in one corner is your BW, crying.

In the other is your OW, crying.

Who do you go to?

This is the scenario that I painted to my WH right after DDay and it cut like a knife that I knew in my gut he wanted to go to OW to protect her, cause he thought she needed that, that she didn't have anyone else, that.. well I don't give a crap, but for a variety of reasons he would go to OW. Thinking his BW could handle her own pain.

In the last 4 months I have seen the slow change in that answer. Even 1 month after Dday while he was saying "I'd come to you", I felt that that was a lie. I knew that if I pressed him (and I did in talking) that while he might do "the right thing", he felt sorry for her. He would want to comfort her. He would come to me, but his eyes and expression would scream "I'm so sorry" to the OW.

Point is... as long as you don't get it and no one can make you get it, it's just a point you reach, all these posts will fly by you. You will not feel the pain you caused, the utter devastation.

I don't know about your BW, but I was on the floor crying like a hurt animal for months on end and although it's not daily anymore, I still have the pain daily. There is never a good nights sleep anymore, or a song that doesn't hurt or a movie. There is never security, never anything light anymore. There is no joy.

This is what happened: You went on a roadtrip with your BW, just the two of you. You were happy. At a certain point you took up the OW at the side of the road. Slowly you started to converse with her, let your BW drive and only focus your attention on the OW, while your BW was driving the car, watching the map and never getting any rest as you were busy focusing on something else than driving with her and her needs. At some point the car stops for gas. Your BW goes to pay and you drive of with the OW. After a while you remember the BW, go back to pick her up (while first driving her over with the car) and throw her in the back seat while you drive with the OW and chat and laugh.

And then for the worse part: You are talking to your BW and YOURSELF about what a wonderful time you had with the OW on the roadtrip.

I hope, I truly hope one day (hopefully soon), you will come back at this forum and start a threat with OMG, I can't believe I was that stupid. That's the point most people on this forum are waiting for and well, you can lead a horse to water..... but....

But it's how I feel.

Right there is why you're gonna lose it all. You're not a child. Children act on their feelings. You are NOT your "feelings" and you know that feelings come & go.

Long term love in relationships waxes & wanes. OW came in on a wane & took advantage of it. You are an adult in an adult & committed relationship, it's your responsibility to constantly recreate & grow your relationship. It's work, but the payoff is TREMENDOUS in comparison to this other crap that's going on with this opportunistic OW.

You're here for help so here's a couple of 2X4's:

No.

You don't have empathy; you're unavailable & stringing OW along. You're married & you're telling your wife you like/love somebody else without just getting a D. There's no empathy in any of that.

You are STILL foggy; but you're still here, so there's hope.

You are passive aggressive; you keep "asking BW" for permission/make choices for you to avoid responsibility.

You NEVER did NC; NONE of what you described was NC. You yourself admit that your NC "breakup chat" wasn't NC. Thanks for the timeline, you DID NOT have "months of NC".

Go full out NC for YOURSELF this time-regardless of what BW does. You NEED it just to clear your head. Let's just get down to brass tacks, shall we? Can you commit to 90 days NC with OW, right here, right now?

That means you send her a proper NC letter: no "secret codes", no "maybe we can be friends someday", no "but just know I'll always have you in my heart"...none of that. Just:

OW,

I love BW, this relationship has hurt her immensely. I want my marriage. I will be deleting and blocking all communication. Any further contact with be considered harassment & legal action will be taken.

lostone209

Next, you will delete all forms of communication-phone #'s, im's, defriend, get rid of crap, stop cyber stalking...blah blah blah...

Here's what, you say you CAN'T do these things & you shouldn't be EXPECTED to give up your sentimental crap, but the fact is you are simply unwilling to give up this crap AND the crap IS crap.

Is 3 months really of TRUE NC so you can help YOURSELF too much to do for...YOURSELF? At the very least?

We're telling you what it's gonna take to get you out of the hell you've created, not just for your BW & your M, but for YOU.

You CAN do this. You WILL be happy & proud that you did. You WILL go through withdrawals as you give up your ego hit, but you will come out on the other side a great person with a sense of accomplishment.

While we realize the intent is mostly to be helpful, this thread has become overwhelmed with BS's who are projecting.

This is the final reminder that this is the Wayward Forum. There is to be no 2x4's or armchair diagnoses or we will start removing people.

So memories of bad things are worthless? Really? We should forget everything bad we ever did? It's part of my life.

It's not that you forget them, it's that you don't cherish them. You don't idolize and remember them fondly. You put them in context.

How about this scenario -- a person goes to a fun party with their best friends and they have a wonderful time, but they drank too much at that party and they make the choice to drive home. On the way home they cross into the other lane and hit a car head on. The person walks away from the crash, but they've killed their friend in the passage seat and a family in the other vehicle.

Should they remember what a great party they'd been to and all the fun times they had that night because it was a truly great party -- they don't remember the time they had so much fun.

Or do they use those memories as a catalyst for change in their life to realize how badly they f'ed up their life and the lives of others. That night becomes a painful memory. It will never be forgotten because of the severity of the act but it's not to reminisce about with longing, fondness or glee for something as superficial as the great party.

Lostone, read about KISA (knight in shining armor) and narcissism since you refer to the OW and her childhood abuse and her problems and you giving her advice.

ETA -- sorry Meta I posted this the same time you gave your warning.

[This message edited by DixieDevastated at 7:38 AM, August 3rd (Friday)]

Imagine:

There is a room, empty room and in that room in one corner is your BW, crying.

In the other is your OW, crying.

Who do you go to?

See, this part is easy. I'd choose BW. I've always chosen BW. Unfortunately, simply choosing her isn't enough.

In my case, unlike yours, my OW has far more people who can help and support her than my BW does. So I don't have something to rationalize why I'd need to go to OW instead. Though, as I recall, back after I broke up with her, I worried about her a lot and how I had hurt her. But even then I knew she had more people she could talk to than BW.

Alas, BW has talked to no one about this. No one except for me and MC and then she didn't trust/like MC. Part of why I tried to keep us going to MC was just so she wouldn't be so completely isolated.

Why do you want to save your m?

While we realize the intent is mostly to be helpful, this thread has become overwhelmed with BS's who are projecting.

This is the final reminder that this is the Wayward Forum. There is to be no 2x4's or armchair diagnoses or we will start removing people.

I'm sorry for creating a thread that's a moderation headache. I didn't put the stop sign up because I thought getting the perspectives of BS's might be useful too.

I never really expected I'd get this many responses.

[This message edited by lostone209 at 7:59 AM, August 3rd (Friday)]

Why do you want to save your m?

Because I love my wife. I don't want to lose her. I never wanted to lose her. I want to do right by her. And I want to spend my life with her.

Because I love my wife. I don't want to lose her. I never wanted to lose her. I want to do right by her. And I want to spend my life with her.

I see a lot of "I" statements here. What is it that YOU can contribute back into the M?

You have to WANT to be in the M. Not just because it's the right thing to do. Your BW does not want to be an obligation.

My first MC was terrible. There was only one thing I took away from the few sessions we had with her:

You can love each other, but it doesn't mean you're going to be together.

Basically, that means, you have to put in the hard work to make your M successful, and for you, that starts with real NC, and no fond memories of OW.

It won't be easy, but if you really want to save your M, you will find a way to do it.

Also, what about things that remind me of her that I run into otherwise? Like, for example,...

There are lots of posts regarding how to deal with this here in WS forum. Usually these situations are just referred to as triggers.

a lot of my writing involved OW. No way I could get rid of that writing.

Do you write about yourself? Do you write about your wife?

But almost everything reminds me of OW. Should I never go to the mountains because they remind me of her? The ocean? Hell, many birds that I see remind me of her - we both had a love of birds and she's an avid birder. I included her in almost everything I enjoy in life. How can I just avoid all of that? It just seems so much more realistic to try to integrate my memories rather than just running away from them. I know this isn't recommended, but I don't know how I can cut out my memories of her without cutting out myself.

Memories seem very, very important to you.

What memories will you treasure of your wife ... because she's days (if not hours) from signing a lease and moving out of your life. You have no children to bond you. If your wife leaves, memories are cold comfort.

I want to ask a little more about you.

I believe you mentioned that you were not happy in your job? Or had not been happy? How is that now?

And also online gaming has been brought up....is this something you personally do alot of? Maybe I missed that.

What are your outside hobbies besides work and home?

One of the things I liked about being with OW was talking to her about and giving her advice on things that troubled her. I'm sure my empathy is one of the things OW likes about me, to be honest.

This statement screams KISA (knight in shining armor syndrome) It is what lead to my H's A. I am a very strong independent woman. OW was not. She needed him. To give advice constantly and help with all of her issues. This lead my H to feel as if he was very important to her and I did not need him as she did.

It's all Bullshit. It was the way the OW manipulated my H. It took him FOREVER it seems to come to this conclusion but he now truly sees how she was working him.

My H also had a very hard time letting OW go actually for alot of the reasons you have stated. We went through 6mnths of FR because of it.

It wasnt untill I was done that my H pulled his head out of his ass. Thankfully that day is the day I signed up for SI and was given the advice that if I loved my H that actions speak louder than any words so why not give it a little more time to see if he can get it together. Put your ducks in a row and see what happens. Your W saying you could follow OW was a perfect example of how much your actions could show. If you had not taken her permission to follow OW it would've shown her that you were trying. It could've been a test from your W to see if you would do it or not. You failed that one.

We have now totally R'd. It was ROUGH!! It is not for pussies.

You have got to start seeing your time with OW in reality. For instance you say you had NC for months however, by your own timeline you had contact every month. Stop rewriting. I know it's difficult. It's easier to see OW and her actions in a positive light because then you dont have to truly dig deep and admit your own fuckups. It's kinda human nature to do this. For your M you really need to but also for yourself. You need to be authentic again. It will hurt getting there it always hurts to admit our wrong doings and weaknesses however, if we dont piece by piece we lose ourselves.

Good Luck and posting on SI is a very good beginning.

You mentioned that you find the OW self-centered. How so?

I don't think I could do that. I'd be getting rid of too much of myself. I'm a very sentimental person. Plus, a lot of my writing involved OW. No way I could get rid of that writing.

Also, what about things that remind me of her that I run into otherwise? Like, for example, I'm watching a new movie with BW and the characters in the movie visit a place that OW used to make youtube videos at and this reminds me of my OW's love of X . Or how in another movie the characters are sitting in a certain place and talking in a certain way that was just like OW and I used to. It seems impossible to get away from this.

But getting rid of art OW did for me and deleting photos of our trips and chat logs and all the stuff I wrote? No way could I do that.

What about the writing you have of your BW? Have you written about your BW?

Do you have pictures of your BW? Pictures of trips with your BW? What's your favorite picture of your BW?

What things does your BW love?

What are things that remind you everyday of your BW?

You need to start thinking of those things about your BW if you want your M to have a fighting chance. Every woman wants to feel special for her husband. By cherishing memories of OW, you are showing your BW that OW is the special one.

What were the things OW did to your BW behind your back that made your BW so uncomfortable?

Also, as aesir said: TRIGGERS. That's why you're seeing reminders of OW everywhere. There's a lot you can do to stop them. Number One is mental NC. That means that anytime you see OW in your head, change the channel. Think about your BW instead. Or something else - like the upcoming Hobbit movie (you're a LOTR fan, right?), or your errands you have to run today (and then do one of them - get really into an activity), or if you can visualize a Stop Sign... You must actively stop thinking about OW.

So your BW moves out in a couple of weeks. How often are you going to see her before then? Is she staying at home or elsewhere?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 11:10 AM, August 3rd (Friday)]

I've seen this word in your posts a lot... Can't... I can't do that... I can't...

*give up artwork

*give up writing

*give up the memories of OW

Can't? or Won't? You CAN do anything you WANT to. It may not be easy, but you CAN do it. You have to WANT to.

Secondly - you mention that so many things remind you of the OW... triggers... That artwork you CAN'T get rid of is a TRIGGER for your BW. That writing... TRIGGER for BW. HER triggers need to be out of your home, your lives. You need to be willing to do anything and everything to rid yourself of all that is the OW.

I love the analogy of the car accident after a great party. That's so much what an A is - a train wreck out of fantasy land.

If I remember your time line, you are 6+ months out from having the A outed (sorry, can't remember if you confessed or if your BW finally did all the math) - anyways, I would hope that you would be a lot further along in your self discovery by now. It really may be time to let your BW go - it may not be forever, but until/unless you can see the light of your indiscretions (and I use that term lightly)and understand and accept that it was wrong, that hanging onto the memories is wrong,you simply cannot be a good partner to anyone.

ETA: Perhaps if you can purge the physical mementos of your affair (the artwork/writing/photos/etc) then the mental/emotional cleansing will actually happen. It won't happen if you are still looking at all of the "stuff".

[This message edited by Lucky2HaveMe at 12:22 PM, August 3rd (Friday)]

Your choice is really very simple:

1. for a healthy marriage and relationship with your wife you let go of OW and all the "memorabilia" that goes with the affair.

2. You let go of your wife and allow her to find the kind of relationship she needs.

One or the other. Either/Or. There is no "and".

Once you make that decision you can move forward with what you need to repair.

I don't think I could do that. I'd be getting rid of too much of myself. I'm a very sentimental person. Plus, a lot of my writing involved OW. No way I could get rid of that writing.

Also, what about things that remind me of her that I run into otherwise? Like, for example, I'm watching a new movie with BW and the characters in the movie visit a place that OW used to make youtube videos at and this reminds me of my OW's love of X . Or how in another movie the characters are sitting in a certain place and talking in a certain way that was just like OW and I used to. It seems impossible to get away from this.

But getting rid of art OW did for me and deleting photos of our trips and chat logs and all the stuff I wrote? No way could I do that.

What's wrong with integrating? what's wrong with understand the negative sides and implications while also still retaining the memories? Do I really need to whitewash over half a year of my life?

I know I'm going to get slammed for this post, But it's how I feel.

Let your wife go and move on. If you can't understand how tortuous it is for a betrayed spouse to have their wandering spouse clinging to and cherishing mementos from the affair partner there is no help for your marriage. Let her start rebuilding her life.

I don't think I could do that. I'd be getting rid of too much of myself. I'm a very sentimental person. Plus, a lot of my writing involved OW. No way I could get rid of that writing.

Also, what about things that remind me of her that I run into otherwise? Like, for example, I'm watching a new movie with BW and the characters in the movie visit a place that OW used to make youtube videos at and this reminds me of my OW's love of X . Or how in another movie the characters are sitting in a certain place and talking in a certain way that was just like OW and I used to. It seems impossible to get away from this.

But getting rid of art OW did for me and deleting photos of our trips and chat logs and all the stuff I wrote? No way could I do that.

What's wrong with integrating? what's wrong with understand the negative sides and implications while also still retaining the memories? Do I really need to whitewash over half a year of my life?

I know I'm going to get slammed for this post, But it's how I feel.

Turn the sitch around. Imagine if your W had cheated on you. Would you be ok with her clinging fondly and pining away with mementos of the OM?

Dude, I feel terribly sorry for your BW. It takes moving heaven and earth to save a marriage after infidelity. I frankly don't see that happening here. If you truly love your BW as you say you do, then let her go. I believe she will be better off without you. JMO.

[This message edited by shattered123 at 6:07 PM, August 3rd (Friday)]