SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Okay, as one of the few here that have been on both sides of this bull I may be of some service... then again. During my EA in my mind I brought up any and every justification I could and I had plenty. My H is/was far from the perfect husband and father... At the time. However, putting my attention someplace other that my M was flat out WRONG! I sat on the fence thinking I could have a family and this rediculous idealized version of the perfect person that would fill the cracks in me that he couldn't. Then; my H used the exact same shit to justify his PA. I couldn't/wouldn't make him happy, we were fighting daily by this point. It helped a great deal that he was addicted to opiates during this time so he was able to completely shut off his ability to care about anything or anyone and I was in a similar state of Mind during my A. Inmaneged it with booze. Nice huh? My point is, when you start to let that selfish beast in, it just starts taking over and before you know it? You're a shaddow of what and who you really are. Listen, if your wife can't fill the cracks in you, this broad sure can't either! Yeah it seems all perfect, you can talk to each other and she REALLY knows you. It's like you could both just float away on white fluffy unicorns and live happily ever after!

Let me ask you something; how was it when you and your wife first met? For me and my H; well let me tell you, we talked for hours, many nights, often till the sun came up in fact!. It was perfect, and we floated away on unicorns a week later.

Look, I know this will sound harsh but take it from someone who's been on the giving AND receiving end of this. I'd be willing to bet money that you haven't a clue as to how much pain your BW is in, probably as we speak. I lost 35lbs in 3 months, the sheer misery and pain, THEN realizing, holy shit, is this what I put my spouse trough?! The one I said I loved and would protect till the day I die. What kind of monster am I?!

Shit or get of the pot son. You promised her she would always be No.1. If you can't keep that promis, NO EXCEPTIONS, then let her move on with her life. BUT, if you really do love her this is (in my opinion) what you MUST do... Never, I mean NEVER talk to, seek out, look at her posts, pics, whatever. Can you completley stop thinking of her? Probably not, not right away anyway. Read some books, read here, get some insight into both sides so you can 'understand' what kind of crap we WS's feed ourselves and what our actions do to the ones we claimed to love and protect. For her sake, make up your mind ASAP. You've been honest with her so far so you've got the makings of being a stand up guy! And if you think this chick is so awesome, think about this. What kind of person would knowing and willingly try to break up a marriage. Even if she has guilt, it's not the same as her saying, "Hey, I don't care how much I think I like you. You're married! So get lost!" after everything that's happend to me. If someone hit in me and they knew I was married... I would rip them a new one!

I get the feeling you want things to work out with your wife. If that's really the case, then wether you break it off with OW now or in three months. You'll still go through withdrawals, you'll still feel bad. If you do it now then you're that much further into getting past it and focusing on your M. Just don't hurt your wife anymore. Re-commit or get out.

Sorry if I sounded a little blunt or or ugly at times but this is ugly stuff. Good luck.

I don't think I could do that. I'd be getting rid of too much of myself. I'm a very sentimental person. Plus, a lot of my writing involved OW. No way I could get rid of that writing.

Also, what about things that remind me of her that I run into otherwise? Like, for example, I'm watching a new movie with BW and the characters in the movie visit a place that OW used to make youtube videos at and this reminds me of my OW's love of X . Or how in another movie the characters are sitting in a certain place and talking in a certain way that was just like OW and I used to. It seems impossible to get away from this.

But getting rid of art OW did for me and deleting photos of our trips and chat logs and all the stuff I wrote? No way could I do that.

What's wrong with integrating? what's wrong with understand the negative sides and implications while also still retaining the memories? Do I really need to whitewash over half a year of my life?

I'm not asking this to be difficult, nor do I mean it as a 2x4, but do you really not see how at odds your comments above are with your claim that you want to fix your M? Either you want to fix your M, in which case you need to start owning your shit and realize that someone who helped you lie to your BW is not a good person with whom good memories should be associated; or you want to hang on to the "preciousness" of the OW, in which case I agree you need to release your BW if you absolutely refuse to consider that the OW is toxic to you and your M. There is no in between.

You seem very indignant that SIers keep insisting you get rid of your mementos. I'm not suggesting you get rid of everything. I DO agree that you get rid of the drawings, items that OW gave you or that you associate with OW (that is, assuming you choose to try to fix your M). The writings - I would put those someplace that you can't get to them and leave them alone for 6-9 months while you work on mental and emotional NC. I would hope that if you put real effort into seeing OW for what she really is (someone who destroyed your M), that in 6-9 months, those writings would serve as a way for you to reflect back and help determine your "why" and/or "how".

I get it. I do. I remember feeling that way for my OM. Until I didn't. You don't have to hate her. I don't hate my OM, but I am truly indifferent to him. Feeling that way is SO freeing. The process to get there is painful because it requires a LOT of deep self-reflection, but I feel like I am beginning to live such a genuine existence after having done that soul searching. It's worth it. Try. Just try.

You have fed your wife poison in her porridge, and now you're wanting to cuddle the empty bottle in front of her? Because it's who you are? This is the same as saying, "I am a marriage-killer, and I'm proud of it!"

I'll repeat it again: get to IC -- a GOOD IC -- and talk about your family of origin issues. You're clinging to the worst parts about yourself, and acting proud of it. It's only a marriage this time. Next time it's... what? A criminal act?

A metaphor struck me, and I thought I would share.

You likened the OW to Gollum, your wife to Samwise Gamgee, and yourself to Frodo, torn between the two.

Think of any and all mementos of the OW as The One Ring. Remember how much it corrupted in spite of how appealing it seemed? How innocent and harmless it seemed? How it couldn't even be in Bilbo's house without leaving a dark stain on Bilbo's mind?

Those mementos and your fond memories of the OW corrupt and harm your M. In your BW's eyes, they continue to turn you against her. They show your commitment to someone else.

You entered marriage with an agreement to be monogamous. You broke that agreement. That agreement was there for a reason, and it can't just be changed because you feel like it. It doesn't keeo the M healthy. It doesn't keep your BW healthy. It certainly doesn't make you healthy.

What are you going to do to be healthy? What are your goals?

As Francheska asked, what are your memories of when you and your BW first began dating? Can you remember how you felt when you first saw her? When you first fell in love with her?

My husband fought NC mightily. He said giving up certain things was like "losing his soul."

What he lost was his wife, his kids, his extended family, and the Terminal OW.

It wasn't nearly as fun for her to have an available man, or for her husband to find out, or any of those icky real-life things impinge on her fantasy.

He's oddly fine, though. He still states that transparency and NC would steal his soul. Turns out he didn't like or respect either of us; it was impossible, you see, because despite his grandiosity, he doesn't like or respect himself. His sense of self is very, very fragile, and he does far better working on this alone---to the extent he is motivated to change at all (which is not very much).

I simply wish he'd gone that route years sooner. Because I was not only crushed, but lost faith in my own judgment.

Please do the kind thing for your wife. It might not mean ending your marriage, but it really must involve evaluation by and therapy with someone very qualified and experienced with personality disorder.

Edited because I sent too soon.

[This message edited by solus sto at 9:01 PM, August 3rd (Friday)]

My husband fought NC mightily. He said giving up certain things was like "losing his soul."

What he lost was his wife, his kids, his extended family, and the Terminal OW.

It wasn't nearly as fun for her to have an available man, or for her husband to find out, or any of those icky real-life things impinge on her fantasy

I was going to quote one part of this, but the whole thing was fantastic!

I want to ask a little more about you.

I believe you mentioned that you were not happy in your job? Or had not been happy? How is that now?

Worse than ever. Not only do I hate it, but with all the crap in my life, I've found it harder than ever to concentrate.

And also online gaming has been brought up....is this something you personally do alot of? Maybe I missed that.

No, I don't do a lot of that. I generally don't do it at all, actually. Both my BW and OW are more into video games than I am, to be honest, but my BW and I often played video games (offline) together. During the affair, I had started playing an online game with OW. We usually spent part of our time playing the game and part of it just hanging out and chatting while in our avatars. We'd actually usually do it on Saturday nights - kind of like a date night, actually. And we usually would voice chat while playing since it was easier to play the game that way. Yeah, I know - this is very rude and hurtful to my wife. Though it did get me to play even more with her so it wouldn't look like I wanted to / enjoyed playing more with OW than her. Of course, the amount of time I had to sleep suffered due to all the time I spent with BW and OW.

My BW and I haven't played video games together in awhile, though. And I haven't played any online games at all since the affair.

What are your outside hobbies besides work and home?

All kinds of stuff, I guess. Hiking, birdwatching, writing (though I haven't done much since the affair), following a certain sports team, certian movies, books, discussing certain esoteric subjects with people (sorry, trying not to identify myself), tabletop gaming, video gaming, certain kinds of music, appreciating art (I know a number of artists and like to go to museums, but I don't make visual art myself). I'd like to get into a certain outdoor activity again as well, but I need to get back into shape, which is a bit difficult with my lingering knee injury. (I had surgery on my knee right before the affair).

During the last six months, I've tried distracting myself with following sports a bit, as well as watching movies with my BW. Also got into a habit of going to art museums with BW when we were trying to R. Also did some hiking and birdwatching with her, though her health hasn't been good (BS's will understand), so she hasn't been able to do anything strenuous.

Also, she's lost interest in doing things with me over the last two or three months due to my lack of progress, I guess. :-/

Both OW and BW share most of these interests to various degrees. Except sports. Neither are into that, though my BW is ok with me talking to her about the sport I follow.

I highly associate the esoteric subject with my OW and it's become painful for me to think about, even though BW is interested in it as well. Yeah, I know, very cryptic.

[This message edited by lostone209 at 9:22 PM, August 3rd (Friday)]

It's so uncanny how much you sound like WH/BH & our M sounds like yours...

I'm hoping he comments here as this is so eerily similar, perhaps you can relate to him.

During his first A, he was unhappy at work as well...

My BW and I haven't played video games together in awhile, though.

This is probably now a trigger for her. Ask her about it...talk to her about it...see it as an attempt to bond.

And I haven't played any online games at all since the affair.

I'm proud of you here. Not just because you haven't played, but because you said that big bad word: affair.

her health hasn't been good (BS's will understand)

Are you trying to take care of her when she doesn't feel well? Making her something to eat, telling her to go rest, etc? This will matter to her too.

Do you write about yourself? Do you write about your wife?

Definitely write about myself. I haven't written as much about my wife, though before I contacted OW again, I did finish a piece of writing about her I was working on. I wanted to finish that first in case the fog came back too strong and I wouldn't be able to in the future. I'm actually really happy with the result.

I did complete some writings about my wife and experiences with her, but I admit I wrote more about OW. I wasn't happy about that.

I had stopped writing for about a decade, but had picked it up around the time I met OW. OW did comment a fair bit on my writing, which was nice, though my BW had provided me the inspiration to get me writing again. She had bought me a blank book for Christmas a couple years ago and said she wanted me to write again. It meant a lot to me because I never knew she liked my writing - she didn't like it when I wrote about her as a teenager. (To be fair, I don't blame her - my teenage writing was awful!) So, yeah, her believing in me really helped. But OW was also the person most interested in my writing other than her.

I actually was working on a book with my writing and the artwork of BW and OW in it. I wanted to just write and see what I could get down instead of trying to be a perfectionist. It was a very important project to me. Oh well.

Memories seem very, very important to you.

What memories will you treasure of your wife ... because she's days (if not hours) from signing a lease and moving out of your life. You have no children to bond you. If your wife leaves, memories are cold comfort.

Lots of them. My IC was actually very much interested in memories, so I did some work with him on memories of my wife. I got lots of em, both recent and old. Getting off of the bus the first time I met my wife IRL really stands out, as do many things from those first few days we were together irl. Almost drowning in the ocean once together but managing to escape the undertow and make it back to shore. Another memory I had commissioned a friend of ours to draw to celebrate our 13th anniversary. This was just a few months before I got close to OW. I have no trouble thinking of good memories of my wife, though. And yes, I guess memories are important to me. My memory isn't that great, which disturbs me, and I guess I cling to those I have.

This is probably now a trigger for her. Ask her about it...talk to her about it...see it as an attempt to bond.

It's a trigger for me, too, to be honest. Especially the game we were playing during the affair. I just haven't felt like playing video games since then. Don't know if she'd want to. Well, not right now, since she isn't really trying to connect to me at the moment. We did have a nice dinner together tonight though.

I'm proud of you here. Not just because you haven't played, but because you said that big bad word: affair.

I've been trying to say that more. I even said the word when I last talked to my OW. It is what it is. I prefer the term "relationship with OW", but yeah, it was an affair. It was an EA that turned into an PA. The physical touching got more and more sexual as time went on, even if we didn't have intercourse. I thought choosing not to have sex would be enough. I'm kinda annoyed at how stupid our culture is about infidelity.

Are you trying to take care of her when she doesn't feel well? Making her something to eat, telling her to go rest, etc? This will matter to her too.

Yes! Just tonight, I walked home slowly from dinner with her. We had to stop several times so she could keep her food down. I was patient and talked to her as much as she desired throughout. I've encouraged her to eat when she needed encouraging (she's gone through the BS weight loss from lack of eating) and have tried to help her to be as healthy as possible. I have made dinner for her when she wasn't able. All sorts of things like that. It hurts a lot to see her in such bad shape.

[This message edited by lostone209 at 9:46 PM, August 3rd (Friday)]

Another memory I had commissioned a friend of ours to draw to celebrate our 13th anniversary. This was just a few months before I got close to OW.

This is a really good example of a time when mental NC becomes important. It would really help you to try "thought-stopping" right here.

You looked at a memory about your 13th wedding anniversary with your wife, and linked OW to it. That tarnishes the memory with your affair.

It wouldn't be fair to ask you to forget everything. But what you would need to do, is recognize how that memory is tarnished. A special memory, that should only be about you and your BW, and now the OW is associated with it when you think about it. How saddening. That woman should never have entered your marriage.

"When I got close to OW" could be synonymous for "the beginning of the end of my marriage with BW". It didn't end when your BW found out; it began to end when you let OW in.

If you want to practice thought-stopping, rethink that thought above, "I had commissioned a friend of ours to draw to celebrate our 13th anniversary..." and plant a Stop Sign in your head before you go any further. Protect the memories with your wife.

when I last talked to my OW

Also, one thing that might (or not?) help: don't think of OW as "yours". She wasn't.

When we attach ownership, jealousy, possession to someone, it becomes harder to let go of them. It makes us feel a sense of belonging with them. OW wasn't yours. And you shouldn't have been "hers". She's not the person for you to hold onto; it's not appropriate. You do not belong to each other. Mental NC!

First and foremost, you need to remember, find, and hold onto yourself.

We had to stop several times so she could keep her food down....I've encouraged her to eat when she needed encouraging (she's gone through the BS weight loss from lack of eating) and have tried to help her to be as healthy as possible....It hurts a lot to see her in such bad shape.

She's the one who you need to keep in your mind. Your BW.

You mentioned that you find the OW self-centered. How so?

I'm not sure, really. She often did things for me, of course. But she often did things for her own enjoyment and seemed focused on herself in some ways? She kind of reminds me of my father in this way, but I can't quite put my finger on it. She's an outgoing and friendly person who does things for others. Even my BW says that OW doesn't seem to be a bad person except for the affair.

What about the writing you have of your BW? Have you written about your BW?

I talked about this in a previous response just above. I cherish what I've written about my BW. I also keep stuff she wrote when we were teenagers. She hates it, but I always liked it. We used to create worlds and characters together - I love those.

Do you have pictures of your BW? Pictures of trips with your BW? What's your favorite picture of your BW?

Oh yes. I look fondly at these too. I was annoyed that I could never get a great photo of my wife, though, especially after taking tons of great ones of BW. On the trip we all went on together, actually, I took tons and tons of pics of OW. It was a bit embarrassing to go back through my photos with them. But I used the excuse that my BW doesn't like getting her picture taken and that since my knee was hurting, I often couldn't move around as much as OW and so just took pictures of her while she did stuff.

Anyway... favorite picture of BW? Tough one. The first one she ever sent me was great. Well, it wasn't a great picture - it was blurry and hard to see her. She had her bow - she was into archery back then. It's funny. We watched Hunger Games together and then read the books together this year during our attempt at R. What first caught my attention was that Katniss looks very much like how my wife looked as a teenager. And of course, they both used bows. :-)

I also liked a photo she sent me of her with her cat. And the nice portrait of herself that she sent me in a frame, I think.

As for my own - I took one of her last year during the affair when she and I were on a trip together that I really like. She didn't like it, but I did. I used it as my desktop on my work computer. My coworkers liked it too. She's really beautiful. More than she realizes. *smiles and sighs*

It really hurts that she feels insecure about her appearance now because OW was thinner and younger. I feel awful for doing that to her. Sometimes, when I think about stuff like this, I think it's best for her to leave to get away from me. I'm so tired of hurting her. I don't want to hurt her anymore. :-(

What things does your BW love?

Me.

Cats. The comfort of home. Doing things together. Taking video games seriously. Taking fantasy novels seriously. Animals and nature. Science. Spirituality. Helping others and being supportive. Having fun with friends. Good food and good drink. Drawing. Painting. Expressing her unique way of seeing the world through her artwork. (Sadly, she's stopped making it - says it's gone. She tried to force herself and I tought the results were good but she said she was just imitating how she used to be.) I love her artwork.

What are things that remind you everyday of your BW?

Well, I see her everyday, so I don't need much reminding! But I like looking at her artwork, especially pictures she's done of me. She even did a beautiful painting of OW and I which I think she regrets now. It was illustrating some writing I did. She did this late in the affair, actually. It's based on the trip we took together. Oddly, it captures OW and me perfectly and our relationship. She agrees. We both see different things in it, though.

But - even her other paintings or the paintings just of me and not OW - I cherish those. I've also been reading some of the love letters she sent me as a teenager. They hurt a lot. She sent me a plushie and told me to pet it when I miss her and the plushie would send on the affection to her... I've been petting the plushie a lot recently, actually. It breaks my heart how much I've let down that girl. And all the talk about us loving each other forever and always being together...

I was the first boy she ever liked, if that wasn't obvious by our ages. We met online and had an online relationship for several years since we couldnt afford to visit each other since we lived far away from each other. Before getting with her, I had been the OM with a married friend of mine. I got really depressed when she dumped me. My wife pulled me out of that depression and saved me life. I always used our marriage as proof that young love can last and that not all relationships started on the rebound are doomed... I guess I was wrong. :-(

You need to start thinking of those things about your BW if you want your M to have a fighting chance. Every woman wants to feel special for her husband. By cherishing memories of OW, you are showing your BW that OW is the special one.

I do think about my wife all the time. :-/

Also, as aesir said: TRIGGERS. That's why you're seeing reminders of OW everywhere. There's a lot you can do to stop them. Number One is mental NC. That means that anytime you see OW in your head, change the channel. Think about your BW instead. Or something else - like the upcoming Hobbit movie (you're a LOTR fan, right?), or your errands you have to run today (and then do one of them - get really into an activity), or if you can visualize a Stop Sign... You must actively stop thinking about OW.

I am following news of the Hobbit Movie, but it too is somewhat triggery. OW and I used to quote the movie sometimes from memory back and forth. And I had been watching the Hobbit Trailer everyday (the music is amazing) before the trip with me and OW. I remember admitting this to OW's sister (we met her briefly before going off on our own for a few days).

Plus, I wore a replica of the Evenstar on the trip. OW's sister asked me why I was wearing it and I told her it was complicated and hard to explain. Then OW explained it perfectly. So yeah, she knew I was trying to honor my wife.

Quick story: My wife had given me the pendant years ago and I thought she was just making fun of my "mancrush" on Aragorn/Viggo. Years later, she told me that she gave it to me cause I said I wanted something to remember her by when I was away from her. I felt liek a jerk for thinking it was just to tease me.

And I wore it on the trip with OW for obvious symbolic reasons. OW understood. I really wish she had stopped me like a friend should and we might be able to actually be real friends now. *cries* I wish I hadn't been so stupid.

So your BW moves out in a couple of weeks. How often are you going to see her before then? Is she staying at home or elsewhere?

She's staying here as long as I don't contact OW. If I were to contact OW, she'd move out immediately. She's planning on going on a trip before her move-in date, perhaps next week. She's been contacting friends to look for people to visit. Still waiting for paperwork to arrive in the mail at the moment - somehow hasn't made it here yet.

I can't say I'm terribly optimistic. I don't really see a way I can get to the place she needs me to be at. I know you all have been giving me tons of advice and I've read every word of it, even those posts I don't reply to. (There are a lot of responses!) Whatever I do, I have to do it wholeheartedly and not just as a means to stay with BW. I need to mean what I do this time and not resent anyone for making me do it later. So mostly I'm still processing... probably will read some more of NJF tonight since that book was better than I expected. I'd kind of like to give a copy to OW, actually, since she could probably use it to, but I know I shouldn't be thinking of her. BW has already read it, of course - I've been reading it on her tablet.

This is a really good example of a time when mental NC becomes important. It would really help you to try "thought-stopping" right here.

You looked at a memory about your 13th wedding anniversary with your wife, and linked OW to it. That tarnishes the memory with your affair.

I appreciate what you're saying, and there's probably some truth to it, but the reason I mentioned OW was because the affair was such a contrast to the picture. I actually wrote a letter to my wife to go with the picture and talked about how I wanted to spend another 13 years with her and that we could get through anything together. It's hard not to think about the affair when I think about that.

I feel kind of sick thinking about it.

Let your wife go and move on. If you can't understand how tortuous it is for a betrayed spouse to have their wandering spouse clinging to and cherishing mementos from the affair partner there is no help for your marriage. Let her start rebuilding her life.

Do you not see that cherishing affair mementos is an active and constant stab in the gut to someone you claim to love? That will never change. Commit to letting it ALL go or let her go. Any other choice strikes me as cruel and selfish. Best luck in making a good choice for you wife.

[This message edited by WarpSpeed at 11:30 PM, August 3rd (Friday)]

my BW had provided me the inspiration to get me writing again. She had bought me a blank book for Christmas a couple years ago and said she wanted me to write again. It meant a lot to me because I never knew she liked my writing

Your BW was thinking of YOU and what would make YOU happy when she bought you the writing paper. She was being a caring and supportive partner and wife to you. I didn't quote the next portion of your statment where you said that she didn't like your writing as a teenager, but....why were you so quick and willing to turn her 'positive' action into something negative? Your BW was encouraging you to return to doing an activity that meant a lot to you in the past. It seems that she 'gets' you and loves you.....and you seem to be astonished that she did it because she didn't like what you wrote about her years & years ago as a teenager??

But OW was also the person most interested in my writing

I feel that you are possibly re-writing history here a bit. Your BW has had a 'problem' with your relationship with OW for a while. What you need to see is that your WIFE gave you the tools to write....she did that out of love for you. Once the uneasiness caused by your relationship with OW entered the picture....well, your BW is NOT going to be your biggest champion because she realizes that your loyalty is not with her. Enter OW....who has none of the history or baggage of a long relationship with you and gushes over your brilliant writing!

And now picture your BW. The one that actually cared for you and loved you enough to provide you with the tools (the blank tablet and encouragement) to begin writing again. Your BW's 'foundational', mature love for you was pushed aside for the superficial flattery of the OW.

I'm wondering if you have trouble seeing your BW in the same light as your OW due to the fact that you have known her for so long that she (your BW) has almost ceased to exist as a person? You seem to take your BW for granted....as if she will always just 'be there'.

I am following news of the Hobbit Movie, but it too is somewhat triggery. OW and I used to quote the movie sometimes from memory back and forth. And I had been watching the Hobbit Trailer everyday (the music is amazing) before the trip with me and OW. I remember admitting this to OW's sister (we met her briefly before going off on our own for a few days).

Plus, I wore a replica of the Evenstar on the trip. OW's sister asked me why I was wearing it and I told her it was complicated and hard to explain. Then OW explained it perfectly. So yeah, she knew I was trying to honor my wife.

Quick story: My wife had given me the pendant years ago and I thought she was just making fun of my "mancrush" on Aragorn/Viggo. Years later, she told me that she gave it to me cause I said I wanted something to remember her by when I was away from her. I felt liek a jerk for thinking it was just to tease me.

And I wore it on the trip with OW for obvious symbolic reasons. OW understood. I really wish she had stopped me like a friend should and we might be able to actually be real friends now. *cries* I wish I hadn't been so stupid. and we might be able to actually be real friends now. *cries* I wish I hadn't been so stupid.

You say that the OW understood and explained the symbol perfectly, when your BW was the one who gave you that symbol. Does your BW know that you now associate the Evenstar with OW more strongly than you associate it with her? That the affair has tainted this cherished symbol?

Were you wearing the Evenstar when you and the OW put your hands on each other? Were you wearing your wedding ring?

Do you ever relate the OW or any of her things to the One Ring? Since she disregarded, disrespected, and tainted the pure symbol your BW gave you?

I appreciate what you're saying, and there's probably some truth to it, but the reason I mentioned OW was because the affair was such a contrast to the picture. I actually wrote a letter to my wife to go with the picture and talked about how I wanted to spend another 13 years with her and that we could get through anything together. It's hard not to think about the affair when I think about that.

I feel kind of sick thinking about it.

That sick feeling, believe it or not, is a good thing. Don't ignore it, don't try to make it go away. That's reality settling in. You want to find out how to let go of the OW? Don't fight reality. Let it set in.

The longer you feel those sick feelings, and the more they become connected to each and every thing about the affair, the faster the fog will lift. The faster the addiction will end.

I was annoyed that I could never get a great photo of my wife, though, especially after taking tons of great ones of OW. On the trip we all went on together, actually, I took tons and tons of pics of OW.

Do you wish that you had taken more photos of your BW? Did you know, while you were doing it, that you were turning away from your BW? Does it seem like an obvious sign now that your attention wasn't where it needed to be? It wasn't supposed to be spent on the OW. Those are moments, attention, love stolen from your BW.

Let all of reality sink in. In time, you might want to burn those photos. Or better yet, let your BW burn them. Let your BW free herself from the stain on her marriage. In time, you will see them as hurtful mementos of the affair.

How do you feel about giving all the mementos from the affair to your BW, to do with them or destroy them as she likes?

While you might feel like the affair was just a relationship between you and the OW, please realize that you brought her into your marriage with your BW. So actually, in a sick way, it's BW's relationship too - in a destructive, hurtful, soul-wrenching, very third-wheel, excluding way. Her non-relationship, on the outside looking in, at her husband and another woman. It was her marriage, so shouldn't she have a say too in how it ends?

I appreciate the thoroughness of your answers. It helps to see your thought process.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:31 AM, August 4th (Saturday)]

What were the things OW did to your BW behind your back that made your BW so uncomfortable?

Oops - skipped this one.

There were really only two occasions, both on the trip the three of us took together. The first happened when we were hiking with our other friends (the husband and wife of the poly couple and their kids). I had gone off with the kids and their mother to spend some time with them. This left BW and OW alone together, I think, though the husband may have been around or elsewhere. I'm not sure exactly what OW did - BW just said she wasn't friendly. I chalked it up as her being grumpy cause of having to deal with the kids.

Later, back at the place the three of us were staying, I had to go do some writing once and I also went out to do some stargazing alone, leaving BW and OW playing video games together, I believe. Same as the other time, BW just said OW wasn't nice to her. Quiet and just not particularly friendly, I guess. I don't remember the details. I suppose I should ask my wife again, though I am a bit wary of bringing up the memory for her. But I imagine she'll be happy to clarify for my sake. She says she wants me to get better even if she has to leave.

You say that the OW understood and explained the symbol perfectly, when your BW was the one who gave you that symbol. Does your BW know that you now associate the Evenstar with OW more strongly than you associate it with her? That the affair has tainted this cherished symbol?

I associate it with my wife. It's just that I was so struck that OW understood so well. It also was important later because it showed she knew I was trying to be faithful to my wife.

Were you wearing the Evenstar when you and the OW put your hands on each other? Were you wearing your wedding ring?

Through most of it, yes. I was firmly believing that we were just being friends. Well, I was firmly deluding myself to think that.

However, I had taken it off when I went into bed with her because I never sleep with it. For some reason, I had left it in the bathroom rather than in the bedroom. I don't know if this was important or just random. And the time that the sexual touching started was when we woke up in the morning.

I did wear it that day, though, the one day we were "together". I guess I thought I was still faithful because I didn't have sex with her. I was quite proud of myself for that...

Do you ever relate the OW or any of her things to the One Ring? Since she disregarded, disrespected, and tainted the pure symbol your BW gave you?

In the Frodo/Sam/Gollum analogy, I'd say the One Ring would be the affair.

Do you wish that you had taken more photos of your BW?

Sure. I did take some, of course. I just didn't go nuts because I was completely obsessed with her.

Did you know, while you were doing it, that you were turning away from your BW?

Nope. Not at all. I thought BW and I were as close as ever and that I was adding something wonderful to our lives.

Does it seem like an obvious sign now that your attention wasn't where it needed to be? It wasn't supposed to be spent on the OW. Those are moments, attention, love stolen from your BW.

Yes, it's an obvious sign now.

Let all of reality sink in. In time, you might want to burn those photos. Or better yet, let your BW burn them. Let your BW free herself from the stain on her marriage. In time, you will see them as hurtful mementos of the affair.

Well, they're digital photos. OW has copies of them. She said they really helped her get over some of her body issues because she could see that her misconceptions about herself were false. Yeah, I was really proud of that.

(Mind you, lots of the photos were of other stuff - my wife, my other friends, landscapes and animals - but I'm just talking about those specifically of OW. Some, of course, were of OW and BW together, since we were all trying to be friends for awhile.)

How do you feel about giving all the mementos from the affair to your BW, to do with them or destroy them as she likes?

Um, no. I feel I would die inside if I did that. Like I would cease to be myself. And this is why I'm feeling pretty hopeless.

Your BW was thinking of YOU and what would make YOU happy when she bought you the writing paper. She was being a caring and supportive partner and wife to you. I didn't quote the next portion of your statment where you said that she didn't like your writing as a teenager, but....why were you so quick and willing to turn her 'positive' action into something negative? Your BW was encouraging you to return to doing an activity that meant a lot to you in the past. It seems that she 'gets' you and loves you.....and you seem to be astonished that she did it because she didn't like what you wrote about her years & years ago as a teenager??

I was just surprised that she thought it was worthwhile. That's actually part of the positiveness of the memory. It really touched me. It's a completely positive memory of my wife. I know she was being supportive and loving. I appreciated it.

I feel that you are possibly re-writing history here a bit. Your BW has had a 'problem' with your relationship with OW for a while. What you need to see is that your WIFE gave you the tools to write....she did that out of love for you. Once the uneasiness caused by your relationship with OW entered the picture....well, your BW is NOT going to be your biggest champion because she realizes that your loyalty is not with her. Enter OW....who has none of the history or baggage of a long relationship with you and gushes over your brilliant writing!

And now picture your BW. The one that actually cared for you and loved you enough to provide you with the tools (the blank tablet and encouragement) to begin writing again. Your BW's 'foundational', mature love for you was pushed aside for the superficial flattery of the OW.

My wife continued to be supporitve of my writing, actually. I was comparing OW to other people, not her. And OW was interested in my writing before we became close. BW does think the affair started when we met, but I don't think we were that close until we started IMing much later. I mean, I guess it was all part of our relationship, but our friendship hadn't gotten out of hand when she started commenting on my writing. I guess what I'm saying is that it wasn't superficial flattery in order to get close to me - I think she was really responding to it. This shared interest was just part of our friendship that then started to cross boundaries into territory that it shouldn't have.