SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Let me correct that relationship history:

1. 15.75-17.0 - online romantic (not sexual) relationship with an 18-19 year old. I took the relationship a lot more serious than she did - I was foolish, she manipulated me to some degree. I have not discussed this one before.

2. 17.0-17.4 - online/phone affair with a 25/26 year old MW. I already detailed this one.

3. 17.5-present - an online relationship with a 14.5 year old. Now my wife.

4. 31.0-31.5 (or 30.5-31.5) - an affair with a 23 year old and wanting to explore a poly relationship.

The other middle-aged MW I had a relationship with (from 16-17, primarily) was not at all romantic or sexual in nature. We were friends. Really just friends. One night, we were both terribly lonely and we started taking our chat in a sexual direction. Then she stopped it. Hopefully I would have if she didn't. But this was just a one night thing - the entire rest of our relationship was honest-to-goodness completely non-sexual, non-romantic. I know what "just friends" affairs are like. This wasn't that.

As for the MW I did have an online sexual relationship with, that would be ephebophilia, not pedophilia. I was 17 at the time. An adolescent, not a child. If you couldn't tell by the age of her children, she got pregnant twice as a teenager.

And yes, AP almost as much younger than me as I was younger than MW, but AP is most definitely an adult, not an adolescent. AP is about the same age as MW's daughters, though, which kind of spooked me when I first realized it. I still remember when once or twice, MW's children would answer when I called. I remember not being bothered by it at the time and much later, I realized I really should have been.

Also, although this doesn't seem like a big deal, somehow it always sticks with me: MW and AP both have deep voices. AP's is deeper than MW's, though. My BW has a very high voice, at least when singing.

Not sure there are any other connections between AP and MW.

Oh, and AP is the only one of these relationships where we met irl rather than online, although, living far away from each other, most of our relationship was online.

I have noticed that the age of the women I've been involved with hasn't changed much, only my own age. This is relatively true of my social circles as well, though. I have always has friends of widely-varying ages. I don't really "feel" much different than how I was in my early 20s.

Aesir:

No, most of those traits do not really sound like me.

Do NOT fit me:

• Doesn’t think too deeply. Flits along the surface of life. Shies away from “in-depth” conversations.

• Is easily impressed and latches on to that which is “hot” at the moment.

• Can be manipulative. Knows how to get what he thinks he wants from others.

• Values and standards may shift. Never sure what he really believes or where he is going to ‘hang his hat.’

• Can be very seductive, flirtatious and a tease. Likes to be around those of the opposite sex.

• Seductive capricious behavior covers inner emptiness and contradictory feelings.

Somewhat apply to me:

• Usually gregarious and sociable. Likes to be with people. Seems to get energy from others.

• Is demonstrative. Can have a flair for the dramatic.

• Feelings tend to go up and down. Never quite sure what you are going to get from this person.

• Responds quickly and intensely to most things around him. Dives into whatever it is before him. Parents may have exhibited the same characteristics.

Of the first list, my BW thought I showed some of them during my affair, but not at all beforehand. I do not think I showed them during my affair either.

"In-depth conversations", as a matter of fact, are what I crave. They fueled all of my important relationships.

I consider myself an ambivert. I tend to be shy and not good with people I don't know, but when I am comfortable, I can be quite extroverted. I also like to spend time alone. I may get more energy from being around other people, but I also like to decompress alone.

If you are in IC, those first two sexually abusive relationships need to be addressed. You suffered emotional abuse as well. I urge you to work on this ASAP.

I had been in IC for 2-3 months, but stopped when I felt I was making no progress anymore.

As I've said above, there was only one sexual relationship with an older woman. I was 17 at the time. I do not consider it abusive.

I did discuss it with my IC. He actually congratulated me when I mentioned that she had learned to be more open from me which had helped her marriage. He didn't see it as abuse. He didn't seem terribly concerned by it.

I've been following this thread for a while, and I get that you're really good at being analytical, and you're really good at writing about it, and you're not afraid to delve into deeper issues, themes, memes, etc.

What I don't get from your writing is any real emotion, any sense of connection to emotion, or any emotional connection to other people.

When was the last time you had a really strong emotional outburst? Anger, frustration, passion, case of the sillies?

When was the last time you had a really strong emotional outburst? Anger, frustration, passion, case of the sillies?

This is kind of funny, actually, and the appearance of my lack of emotionality may be a product of talking on this forum and the numbness I need to think about these things and still talk about them.

I'm actually an intensely emotional person. Anger and frustration are huge problems for me. Once I read about how catharsis is a myth, I tried to work on my problem of taking my anger out on objects by trying to become more calm when I'm angry rather than venting it. However, the whole aftermath of the affair hasn't helped.

As for passion and cases of the sillies - yeah, everybody knows me for these. Definitely things my BW loves about me. I'm a very silly person and always have been. AP liked that about me too.

[This message edited by lostone209 at 3:03 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

That's good and well, but you both answered and didn't answer my question. You identified vague responses to each individual thing I asked, and provided "witnesses," but didn't really answer the question I asked, which was when you felt these things, not what other people could testify about you.

ETA: I also learned in psych class that catharsis as a form of therapy is highly fallacious -- but it didn't stop me from feeling things.

[This message edited by veritas at 8:11 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

Can be manipulative. Knows how to get what he thinks he wants from others

You said this trait does not fit you at all, yet you admitted bullying your wife until you got your way regarding OW.

I think you are not being completely honest with yourself yet. You are keeping your OW as a back-up plan in case your BW decides not work on the marriage. That is still a form of manipulation.

As for passion and cases of the sillies - yeah, everybody knows me for these. Definitely things my BW loves about me. I'm a very silly person and always have been. AP liked that about me too.

Based on your writing you choose yourself over either BW or OW. You are more enamored on how they see you than on who they are or what they are worth. Let them both go with a clean break and work on your issues. Right now you are holding on to both while focusing on yourself.

[This message edited by grace68 at 7:05 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

Don't be so quick to rule out the other traits Aesir listed

• Is easily impressed and latches on to that which is “hot” at the moment.

Lostone, it sounds like you get easily impressed and latch on to certain people you find 'hot' at the moment. Perhaps it refers to trends, but you seem to have a tendency to latch on to people/things.

• Values and standards may shift.

Such as getting married and wanting to be exclusive/monogamous to then wanting a poly lifestyle?

• Can be very seductive, flirtatious and a tease. Likes to be around those of the opposite sex.

Do you seek/have as many male friends as female friends online? Are women easier for you to talk to and connect with?

"In-depth conversations", as a matter of fact, are what I crave. They fueled all of my important relationships.

In-depth conversations about what? What topics do you think warrant in-depth conversation?

I had been in IC for 2-3 months, but stopped when I felt I was making no progress anymore.

As I've said above, there was only one sexual relationship with an older woman. I was 17 at the time. I do not consider it abusive.

I did discuss it with my IC. He actually congratulated me when I mentioned that she had learned to be more open from me which had helped her marriage. He didn't see it as abuse. He didn't seem terribly concerned by it.

Find another IC.

He congratulated you for having an affair at 17 and helping the persons marriage? The guy was a quack!

You thinking that played right into your KISA syndrome then and now. Perhaps that's why you believed your recent AP was going to help your M when your BW clearly didn't have the same opinion.

Perhaps that's why you cannot wrap your head around the AP being a toxin in your M because you can't see that you at 17 didn't truly aid your 'friends' M.

You have no idea what was going on in the M of that MW -- you weren't in the M. You only got her version of 1/2 a story. You don't know what was true or a fabrication. Quite frankly at 17 you could not have the maturity level to understand any of that or what is involved in making a M work.

She was not your friend and you were not her friend because as has been mentioned before numerous times -- AP's are not the WS's friend. They are acting selfishly. True friends are not selfish.

That is a delusion that any good IC should have addressed. Find another IC ASAP.

[This message edited by DixieDevastated at 8:41 AM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

Have you ever had a relationship that did not start with online (or phone) fantasy?

Have you ever had a relationship--other than with your wife or AP---that entered the IRL realm?

"In-depth conversations", as a matter of fact, are what I crave. They fueled all of my important relationships.

LadyV wrote:

lostalone, you are your own AP. I don't mean that in a simple, narcissistic sense, though there is an element of that. I mean it in a curiously metaphysical sense. And I think the reason I keep returning to this thread is that I know what it is to have, or want, an affair with yourself. To be limerent with, or want to be limerent, with you.

WikipediaLimerence is a term coined c. 1977 by the psychologist Dorothy Tennov to describe an involuntary state of mind which seems to result from a romantic attraction to another person combined with an overwhelming, obsessive need to have one's feelings reciprocated....Limerence is characterized by intrusive thinking and pronounced sensitivity to external events that reflect the disposition of the limerent object towards the individual, and can be experienced as intense joy or as extreme despair, depending on whether the feelings are reciprocated. Basically, it is the state of being completely carried away by unreasoned passion or love, even to the point of addictive-type behavior.

And, finally, Let me correct that relationship history:

1. 15.75-17.0 - online romantic (not sexual) relationship with an 18-19 year old. I took the relationship a lot more serious than she did - I was foolish, she manipulated me to some degree. I have not discussed this one before.

2. 17.0-17.4 - online/phone affair with a 25/26 year old MW. I already detailed this one.

3. 17.5-present - an online relationship with a 14.5 year old. Now my wife.

4. 31.0-31.5 (or 30.5-31.5) - an affair with a 23 year old and wanting to explore a poly relationship.

ladies_first...

His dating history has nothing to do with his current situation.

Please stay on track and constructive or we ask that you stay off the thread entirely.

Thank you.

You need a new IC. He congratulated you for being the OM in someone else's marriage??

WTF???

As for fond feelings toward a betrayal - I don't know. I feel awful about what I did to my BW. Really, really awful. But when I think of the good times when OW and I were close, somehow I can feel fondness toward those times even though I know being so close to OW hurt my wife deeply. I feel bad for hurting her and very guilty. It's possible I am still compartmentalizing? I did suffer emotional abuse as a child and I've read that children of abuse tend to be good at compartmentalizing.

You feel awful about hurting your wife, BUT........ you are selfish and holding on to the good feelings the OW gave you.

I agree with the others your IC is not good for you. He is suppose to help you understand WHY you do what you do not give you a high five for bad behaviour.

When we don't feel good we engage in behaviour that makes us feel good. The MM I saw made me feel good for a while. Most likely because we didn't have to engage in everyday life. It was almost like a high when I talked to him or saw him.

A high that I wanted because that way I didn't have to deal with reality at the time.

Look at the ages of the women you engage with?? Should tell you something.

As for passion and cases of the sillies - yeah, everybody knows me for these. Definitely things my BW loves about me. I'm a very silly person and always have been. AP liked that about me too.

This is an example of what a lot of others have pointed out to you. The last sentence is your problem. And I believe it is what is holding you back. You say something about your BW and then immediately have to associate the same thing or something similar to AP. Please try to stop associating your every thought to AP. I say this gently, who cares if AP liked that about you too. This should not be a pro/con list of who liked you more during your affair. And since AP was never your friend or anyone you should want to be around, then AP's opinion of you should never be considered or thought of. This appears to be your sticking point. Please I encourage you to find a new IC and keep trying until you find one that fits and stick with it.

[This message edited by childofcheater at 6:20 PM, August 8th (Wednesday)]

Okay, another set of questions lostone.

How familiar do these things sound to you?

• Usually over controlling of others and himself.

• Is often very methodical, calculating and disciplined about his life.

• Has a hard time laughing and enjoying life. Somewhat grim.

• May appear very proper and respectful on the surface.

• May try to please his superiors and be rather harsh on those “below” him.

• One senses a powerful underlying tension and may fear it erupting at any moment.

• Will disclose little about his inner life or about himself.

• May hint at having a secret life, or you suspect there may be one.

• May isolate himself from family members or family activities.

• May appear calm, and then for no apparent reason “blow up.”

• Seems rather mechanical in speech and behavior, especially if confronted by another.

• Has a hard time with change.

Have you ever had a relationship that did not start with online (or phone) fantasy?

Yes. AP and I met irl.

Also, the others did not start with "fantasy" just because we met online. Certainly not my wife and I.

Have you ever had a relationship--other than with your wife or AP---that entered the IRL realm?

I assume you just mean sexual/romantic relationships?

If so, then no. I mean, other than silly stuff from when I was in sixth grade or crushes I had on girls that I was friends with. But, I mean, I've covered all my relationships from 16 onward. Anything before that gets into childhood territory.

AP and BW are the only two people I've been physically intimate with.

BW has never had any relationship other than with me.

Not very familiar, Aesir.

• Usually over controlling of others and himself.

Others, yes, but not myself.

• Is often very methodical, calculating and disciplined about his life.

Not nearly disciplined enough!

I'm sometimes methodical and sometimes spontaneous.

• Has a hard time laughing and enjoying life. Somewhat grim.

Not really. I'm moody, sure, and can get into brooding, but I also laugh a lot. I'm the person who makes the most jokes in my family, for example.

• May appear very proper and respectful on the surface.

Only when I'm wearing a mask, like at work. Though even then I can occasionally be silly there. Used to be more so before I hated my job so much.

• May try to please his superiors and be rather harsh on those “below” him.

No. Not at all.

• One senses a powerful underlying tension and may fear it erupting at any moment.

Maybe a little? But that's mostly when I'm frustrated or angry. Not most of the time.

• Will disclose little about his inner life or about himself.

Again, only when I'm wearing a mask. I disclose all of this to my BW.

• May hint at having a secret life, or you suspect there may be one.

• May isolate himself from family members or family activities.

Nope.

• May appear calm, and then for no apparent reason “blow up.”

Only when I'm angry.

• Seems rather mechanical in speech and behavior, especially if confronted by another.

No.

• Has a hard time with [change.

Who doesn't? I also have a hard time with things staying the same.

I'm really worried I'm not expressing myself well here.

I did google a bit from your list and found your source - some of the general patterns from this fit somewhat, but I'd say my wife and I were very intimate.

The two closest from your source for me seem to be "I Need To Prove My Desirability" and "I Fell Out of Love (and just love being in love)".

That's good and well, but you both answered and didn't answer my question. You identified vague responses to each individual thing I asked, and provided "witnesses," but didn't really answer the question I asked, which was when you felt these things, not what other people could testify about you.

Ok:

Anger: Today. (Even more yesterday, though.)

Frustration: Today. (Same.)

Case of the sillies: Today. My wife and I had a nice laugh together. It's bittersweet knowing she'll be gone so soon.

And passion? What kind of passion do you mean? Sexual? Then yesterday. Creative? A week or two ago? I've covered anger above.

Hell, earlier today I got passionate when talking with a coworker about how a Sikh friend of ours had suffered lots of harassment after 9/11. I almost lost my cool after he said some people are crazy and I corrected him with "some people are racist."

Look at the ages of the women you engage with?? Should tell you something.

Um, what should it tell me?

That I don't care too much about how things appear or the social acceptability of my relationships?

That I like young women?

What I seek mates who are the age I'd rather be - older when I am young and younger when I am old?

I don't know. I've always had friends who are older and friends who are younger. Even when I was a kid I was like this. Age just never really mattered to me.

Yeah, I'm terrified at the thought that my affair might have been motivated by youth or age. On the other hand, I had no impression of her physically when I met her. I wasn't physically attracted to her at all. It was only later when she sent me pictures of herself that I became physically attracted to her, and that was after I had already gotten close to her emotionally.

But I also can't deny I liked to touch her a lot. But the relationship was much more emotional and intellectual than physical, I think.